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Innocent Soul
03-21-2013, 06:19 PM
Assalamualaikum

Do you think women to acquire higher education if the institute is co-education?

After education should women do reputed jobs like scientists, journalists, doctors, govt officers even if they have to interact with men but they can do the job wearing hijab?

Should women prefer jobs like teachers,gynacologists, cooks?

Would you permit your sisters or wife to do such jobs?
We might have different opinions I just want to know what our muslim brothers sisters think about it.
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sister herb
03-21-2013, 07:13 PM
Salam alaykum

I think muslim women can make any job they can after graduating where they can without danger they religion.

An accountant? A doctor? A cosmonaut? A dressmaker? A cook? A writer? A judge? A what ever.
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GuestFellow
03-21-2013, 07:14 PM
:sl:

I really don't care. Seriously it's not something I really care about anymore. Go into whatever profession you want. Won't affect me.
Reply

sister herb
03-21-2013, 07:23 PM
Salam alaykum

If you don´t care, why you even wrote answer to this thread?

^o)

Please go to do then something you really care.
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sister herb
03-21-2013, 07:27 PM
I know one sister who studies an astronomy in the university. She might becomes great scientist.

:D
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GuestFellow
03-21-2013, 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Salam alaykum

If you don´t care, why you even wrote answer to this thread?
:wa:

Must I need to repeat myself for the slow toddlers! I said I don't care about women's career ambitions. That's my opinion which is not reflected in the poll. DUH!

As for the topic, it's interesting. I do care about the topic itself.

Please go to do then something you really care.
I will throw a stone at an Israeli tank!
Reply

sister herb
03-21-2013, 07:41 PM
Salam alaykum

I am not toddler but sister in islam to you, if it is ok. Ok you doesn´t care at all about this matter - thanks to answering by so clear way.

If you like to go to throw stone against zionist tanks then that is great from you. I have been human right worker over 25 years, speciality to issues of Palestine. I might have enough contacts that you could get to throw even one stone against tanks. And this my comment was totally off topic.
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GuestFellow
03-21-2013, 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Salam alaykum

I am not toddler but sister in islam to you, if it is ok. Ok you doesn´t care at all about this matter - thanks to answering by so clear way.
:sl:

I think I touched a nerve. All I'm saying is women should do whatever job they want to do. It does not concern me. This opinion is not reflected in the poll.
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sister herb
03-21-2013, 07:56 PM
Salam alaykum

I think just as you are thinking. Women as well men should do the work they are the best. Some women might be clever in one field, some in others.
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yahia12
03-21-2013, 08:05 PM
Women should do reputed jobs. In many countries they tend to get better grades than men. however they should stay away from driving. :-)
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sister herb
03-21-2013, 08:14 PM
Salam alaykum

Which are reputed jobs? A cosmonaunt? There isn´t very much fitnah in the outer space.

^o)
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Ramadan90
03-21-2013, 08:27 PM
I would prefer my wife being home with the kids. If I and my wife are working, who will raise the children as muslims? The television?
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sister herb
03-21-2013, 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by Allah<3
I would prefer my wife being home with the kids. If I and my wife are working, who will raise the children as muslims? The television?
Salam alaykum

What if you raise your children? What if your wife works and you stay at home raising kids?

^o)
Reply

Qurratul Ayn
03-21-2013, 08:41 PM
:salamext:

I voted "I am a sis. I think women should do reputed jobs"

My life-long ambition was to become a cardiac surgeon or a neuro surgeon, and I was dead set upon it, my heart, soul and mind. The amount of studying, researching, learning I put into this goal... But :Allah::swt: had greater, better and bigger plans for me :)

I don't think there's anything wrong in having a reputed job/career, as long as the Sister is aware of her Hijaab and abides by it then it should be OK. It may be hard in the workplace but once the reasoning as to why a Sister can't shake hands with males and vice versa, why a male/female can't be alone in a room with the opposite gender etc. is explained, it should be fine, and the employees should respect that, obviously they'll be asking questions and be curious, but that shouldn't affect the Sister from her career/job therefore she should perform 100%. Of course, there are exceptions, but that's my thought.

I was torn between wanting to work and wanting to stay at home, but then I decided I want to work after marriage and study too, I asked my husband and he replied affirmative he will let me work and study and support me in whatever decision I ended up with, once I had made my mind up.

I am working but soon In Sha Allaah, I shall open up my own business!!! My own, not my husband's, he's got his own thing, but MY OWN!!! I'm so excited!!!

Khadijah :raha: is my role model, as she had her own successful business too :alhamd:

Please make Du'a.

Ma Salama
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sister herb
03-21-2013, 08:49 PM
Salam alaykum

I have worked as business woman using hijab, spokeswoman using hijab, web designer using hijab, teacher using hijab, social worker using hijab, librarian using, human right worker using hijab ...

Have it sometime caused fitnah? Last time I was a cook using hijab - even a chef of the kitchen by hijab. Other cooks were brothers. I was a boss. With no problems.

:D Yup we made tasty food.
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Ramadan90
03-21-2013, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Salam alaykum

What if you raise your children? What if your wife works and you stay at home raising kids?

^o)
I dont have any problem with it. I wrote "prefer". ;) In fact I think it would be much easier to do the home chores + raising the kids. :D but I would be bored to death without challenges. I would maybe start a business along with raising the children.
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yahia12
03-21-2013, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Salam alaykum

Have it sometime caused fitnah? Last time I was a cook using hijab - even a chef of the kitchen by hijab. Other cooks were brothers. I was a boss. With no problems.

:D Yup we made tasty food.
´Gordon Ramsay would have been proud :p
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'Abd-al Latif
03-21-2013, 09:12 PM
This question is highly subjective as answers will vary according to time, place and situation.
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Naeema
03-21-2013, 09:20 PM
I know many couples in the US where both parents work, but they are off-schedule from each other. They are doing an excellent job raising their children with extremely limited outside help.

As to occupations, I work in research and have the luxury of an office. While I supervise and work with men, it is generally considered improper for us to be in any room alone. On the rare times when I do need a closed door, each office and room has a window wall so there is no physical privacy. (But I have a shade I can close to pray in private.)
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sister herb
03-21-2013, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
This question is highly subjective as answers will vary according to time, place and situation.
Salam alaykum

And persons too. In some works - professionals just can work as professionals.

And forget idea of fitnah at all from work.

;D
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cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn
03-21-2013, 09:39 PM
So long as her household comes first, her husband and children are not neglected and the health of her family isn't compromised in any way (i.e running to convenience foods, eating out because work takes up too much time) then by all means.

I do feel women should focus more on doing work where women are involved (ie: midwifery, beautician, women's health), take care of your women folk know what I mean? Women will always prefer to go to women for these things of course so this is what I would encourage my daughter to do In Shaa Allah.

The business Khadijah (r.a) had was passed down to her by her father, not something she started on her own, and men ran it for her. That's how she came to know that prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) was an honest man, he ran a transaction for her and instead of shortchanging her like the rest of the men, he was honest. She survived off of this business when she was widowed. When she married, the care of her children and her husband was priority, she would actually go check on the prophet (s.a.w) personally when he was in his cave to make sure he was doing okay. I am saying this to 1) Show how Khadija's(r.a) business actually started,it is good to know and 2) to show by using her example, that yes women can have a business/careers there's priorities for her and as long as that isn't forgotten or compromised then it's all good.

Just my two pesos :)

- cOsMiC
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sister herb
03-21-2013, 09:46 PM
Salam alaykum

sister Khadija is a good example to us all.

Thanks for reminding it to us brother.
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cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn
03-21-2013, 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Salam alaykum

sister Khadija is a good example to us all.

Thanks for reminding it to us brother.
Waleikum Asalaam :) Yes her story is one of my favorites...well it is difficult to choose a favorite among the Mothers of the believers, they are all amazing stories!

I'm a sister :embarrass

- cOsMiC
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sister herb
03-21-2013, 09:55 PM
Originally Posted by cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn

I'm a sister :embarrass

- cOsMiC
Oops. Sorry I mess you to br Scimi by similar avatar.

:embarrass
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sister herb
03-21-2013, 10:00 PM
vs,

^o)
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Qurratul Ayn
03-21-2013, 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Oops. Sorry I mess you to br Scimi by similar avatar.
Originally Posted by sister harb
vs,


Clearly Brother Scimitar's one is red and my Sister Cosmicks one is purple, Brother Scimitar's avatar is larger in size than my Cosmicks and there's a sheen on my Cosmick's avatar and not on Brother Scimitar's

How you could confuse the two...

:haha:
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Qurratul Ayn
03-21-2013, 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn
So long as her household comes first, her husband and children are not neglected and the health of her family isn't compromised in any way (i.e running to convenience foods, eating out because work takes up too much time) then by all means.

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn
I do feel women should focus more on doing work where women are involved (ie: midwifery, beautician, women's health), take care of your women folk know what I mean? Women will always prefer to go to women for these things of course so this is what I would encourage my daughter to do In Shaa Allah.
I see your point, my Cosmicks, but I would still encourage my daugther/s to exceed in everything even career-wise, if they have the potential, then why not? Sky's the limit, as the folks say. But I will always tell them and others to NEVER compromise the Deen, no matter what the achievements or rewards that the career/postion/job allows them to acquire

Originally Posted by cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn
The business Khadijah (r.a) had was passed down to her by her father, not something she started on her own, and men ran it for her. That's how she came to know that prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) was an honest man, he ran a transaction for her and instead of shortchanging her like the rest of the men, he was honest. She survived off of this business when she was widowed. When she married, the care of her children and her husband was priority, she would actually go check on the prophet (s.a.w) personally when he was in his cave to make sure he was doing okay. I am saying this to 1) Show how Khadija's(r.a) business actually started,it is good to know and 2) to show by using her example, that yes women can have a business/careers there's priorities for her and as long as that isn't forgotten or compromised then it's all good.
Now she was a superwoman :D It was still her business though... :ia: All of us Sisters shall aspire to her level!

Ma Salama
Reply

cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn
03-21-2013, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
Oops. Sorry I mess you to br Scimi by similar avatar.

:embarrass

No worries, it was bound to happen loooooooool!

Originally Posted by Qurratul Ayn




Clearly Brother Scimitar's one is red and my Sister Cosmicks one is purple, Brother Scimitar's avatar is larger in size than my Cosmicks and there's a sheen on my Cosmick's avatar and not on Brother Scimitar's

How you could confuse the two...

:haha:
rofl! you are SOOO detail oriented. masha Allah. :)

- cOsMiC





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Qurratul Ayn
03-21-2013, 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by cOsMiCiNtUiTiOn
rofl! you are SOOO detail oriented. masha Allah. :)
Jazaakumu Allaahu Khayran

That is how I do.

:haha:



Jokes
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~Zaria~
03-22-2013, 08:43 AM
:salamext:

I was just wondering.....how would you feel if your daughter decides to enter the following fields, e.g:

- An air-hostess
- A civil/ mechanical engineer
- She desires to help out at her dads shop (e.g. managing the tills)


Shukran
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sister herb
03-22-2013, 09:12 AM
Salam alaykum

I don´t see any problems with any of those jobs (if I would do them or if I would have a daughter).
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yahia12
03-22-2013, 09:37 AM
Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
:salamext:

I was just wondering.....how would you feel if your daughter decides to enter the following fields, e.g:

- An air-hostess
- A civil/ mechanical engineer
- She desires to help out at her dads shop (e.g. managing the tills)


Shukran
I believe that we should take in consideration what jobs are suitable for both genders from an Islamic and biologic point of view. Men and women are different therefore some jobs are appropriate for men to do and some jobs are suitable for women. Occupations such as soldier and construction workers may be more suitable for men since they are stronger. While language related occupations such as teachers, nurses and receptionist are more suitable for women because they are less aggressive and have more language abilities.

I would not like my daughter working as air hostess. Just goggle the requirements for becoming an airhostess n you will see why It's not appropiate for a Muslimah.
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Abu Loren
03-22-2013, 11:29 AM
The best job for a woman is looking after the household, bringing up the children and being a dutiful wife to their husbands. Anthing else is competing with men.
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sister herb
03-22-2013, 11:37 AM
^^ Unfortunately to every women kind of job is not possible. Somebodies have to make work outside to earn they living.
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tearose
03-22-2013, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Loren
The best job for a woman is looking after the household, bringing up the children and being a dutiful wife to their husbands. Anthing else is competing with men.
Being a teacher in a girls' school isn't competing with men. Being a midwife or a gynaecologist or any doctor who works exclusively with women is not competing with men. Men can't do those jobs (or, at least, it would be much better if they didn't). Societies are in need of women who can provide services for other women and girls.
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Futuwwa
03-22-2013, 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Loren
The best job for a woman is looking after the household, bringing up the children and being a dutiful wife to their husbands. Anthing else is competing with men.
Is there anything inherently problematic about women being in positions where they compete with men? Why would that be inherently different from men competing with other men?
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~Zaria~
03-22-2013, 05:39 PM
:salamext:

The purpose of the above questions is to, in shaa Allah, highlight the fact that we all will have different opinions and view-points on such matters.

However in matters of fiqh, and when there is any doubt with regards to our deen whatsoever, the best approach would be to consult with those who have more knowledge than us, in shaa Allah.


This is the response provided to a mother who enquired about her daughter working as an air-hostess, from well-respected Hanafi scholars:

My daughter has got an offer of Air-hostage job in Saudi Airline. She is still unmarried. Can I accept this job for her. Can she travel alone thru plane at any destination in the world. She will get good salary package hence we wish to accept this job for some time. Pleas advise me whether her income will be halal if she accept this job. Thank you and Jazakamulla khairun.


In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

Assalaamu `alaykum waRahmatullahi Wabarakatoh

Islam is a complete and comprehensive religion. Its teachings, philosophies and instructions are contained in the Quran and Hadith. Both (Quran and Hadith) serve as a guidebook and manual for Muslims. The decision of a Muslim ought to comply with this guidebook and manual. To understand the system of Islam, the example of a judge would be appropriate. The decision of a judge would be acted upon in the court of law as long as it is in conformity with the book of law. If not, his decision would be rejected. Similarly, the decision of Muslim would be accepted in the court of Allah Ta’ala as long as it is in conformity with the Quran and Hadith. If not, his decisions would be incorrect. Therefore, it is of great importance that our decisions conform to the teachings of the Quran and Hadith. Decisions of this nature will surely draw the Barakah (blessings) and Rahmah (mercy) of Allah Ta’ala.

Islam advocates the honour and chastity of women and has never allowed their integrity to be dampened. Allah Ta’ala has prohibited men from casting lustful, filthy glances on women and has instructed men to lower their glances before them. Women are special creations of Allah Ta’ala meant to be concealed, honoured and taken care of and not left as objects of attraction for men. Allowing them to loiter and linger around in public is in reality dishonour to them. Women are not meant to satisfy the passion of strange men, rather they are meant to satisfy their husbands. Allah Ta’ala addresses women in the Quran with the following words:


وَقَرْنَفِيبُيُوتِكُنَّوَلَاتَبَرَّجْنَتَبَرُّجَالْجَاهِلِيَّةِالْأُولَى

“Remain in your homes, and do not display (your) beauty as it used to be displayed in the days of earlier ignorance” (Al-Ahzab, 33)








As Rijaal (men)and leaders of families, it is our duty to act on the command of Allah Ta’ala, protect the chastity, respect and honour of our women and not allow them to be victims of filthy glances of men. Muslim mothers and daughters are the pride of this ummah and never should we allow their chastity and honour to be streaked. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) has mentioned:

والرجلراعفيأهلهوهومسؤولعنرعيته

“A man is shepherd of his family and would be questioned regarding his flock” (Sahih Bukhari #853)








In view of the above, we reply to your query:

In allowing women to take up air hostess jobs, the following unislamic activities are observed:

Travelling without a Mahram

It is not permissible for women to travel without a Mahram. (a male companion with whom marriage is Haram).
Rasulullah (Sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) has mentioned:
لاتسافرالمرأةإلامعذيمحرم

“A Woman should not travel without a Mahram” (Sahih Bukhari #1763)









The Fuqahaa (Jurists) have stated:
ولا تسافر المرأة بغير محرم ثلاثة أيام وما فوقها

A woman cannot travel for three days or more (i.e.78km or more) without a Mahram” (Al-Fatawa al-Hindiyya, vol 5, pg 366, Rasheediyya / Al Muheet al-Burhani, vol 8, pg 114, Idara Al-Quran)








Furthermore, it is expected of an air hostess to be appealing to the passengers. That is expressed by them applying makeup, smiling to one and all and obviously the dress code of an air hostess is meant to fulfil such unislamic expectations.


Fear of Fitnah

A young girl that is unmarried and without the company of a Mahram will certainly be tested with temptations and caught up in the snares of Shaytan during her journey. It is the duty of the parents to protect the chastity and honour of their daughter. We have been reliably informed by people in the industry about how they tempt air hostess and air hostess tempt them while being abroad.

In light of the above, it is abundantly clear that it will not be permissible for a woman to take up the job as an air hostess. Surely, at the time of necessity, there are other permissible avenues for women to earn a livelihood. They could possibly work or engage themselves in some occupation from home. It will also not be permissible for the parents to allow their daughter in taking up this job.


And Allah knows best
Wassalam
Ml. Talha Desai,
Student Darul Iftaa


Concured by:

Muhammed Zakariyya Desai,
Assistant Mufti

Darul Iftaa, Madrassah In'aamiyyah

http://50-56-29-176.static.cloud-ips...81fde479ad305f


The following may also be of benefit in shaa Allah:


are women allowed to work in this country..


Hanafi Fiqh > Askimam.org
Answer
According to the Shari?ah, the Qur?aan and Ahaadith, the woman?s place is at home. It is the responsibility of the husband to support his wife and fulfil all her needs. If a woman does not have any financial support, then only she may seek employment. In such a situation, she must adhere to the laws of Hijaab.

The concept of females working merely for economic independency has no basis in the Shari?ah. In fact, it is a root of many evils. It is this economic independency in a woman that gives her the courage to break her marital home. Consider the marital breakdown in the US (4-5) due to woman independency. If she was dependant, or her husband, she would exercise restraint and maintain her marriage. That is best in the interest of her family, husband and children. It does not mean that a woman should be dependant on men merely to maintain her marriage.

We have merely expressed the wisdom of a female being dependant. This also does not mean a female cannot be rich. She may earn an income but without violating the laws of the Shari?ah. Firstly, a wife must get the consent of her husband to work. If the husband refuses, she cannot work.

She must adhere to the laws of Hijaab. Any violation of the laws of Hijaab even with the consent of the husband is not permissible. that includes working in an environment of males, females mixing. Not talking to the opposite gender is not sufficient grounds for permissibility. The form and shape of a female must be concealed from a male. Segregation of sexes is an integral part of Deen. That maintains a healthy and pure mind. A mind contaminated with the different forms and shapes of woman is death to spirituality. It leads to funtasising of the opposite gender which is a strong and motivating cause for every form of illicit relationship.


If your wife wants to work, you may consider any form of home industry or alternatively she may have some skills to offer to woman. There are many woman who require services in the form of guidance and counseling. Your wife should consider undertaking a course of studying about a Muslim woman?s role and assist other woman. There is a great need for such counseling and guidance, especially in the US. That will be a great contribution from her side. She may also charge a fee for her time.


and Allah Ta’ala Knows Best

Mufti Ebrahim Desai

http://islamqa.org/hanafi/askimam/29533



May Allah (subhanawata'ala) make it easy on our sisters, in this world with so many fitnahs, and may we strive to under-take every action solely for His pleasure.
Ameen


:wasalamex
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Cabdullahi
03-22-2013, 05:57 PM
Any female network analysts out there?
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GuestFellow
03-22-2013, 05:57 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Loren
The best job for a woman is looking after the household, bringing up the children and being a dutiful wife to their husbands. Anthing else is competing with men.
Not all women can get married.

What's wrong with competition? If you are not competing with others for the same position, you just become lazy and arrogant.
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sister herb
03-22-2013, 06:14 PM
Salam alaykum

Actually with competition, the best one will get job - just same which is the gender. Isn´t that the most important?

^o)

If I have to choose a doctor I surely want the best one. Gender is not important, just that the doctor is professional.
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sister herb
03-22-2013, 06:17 PM
Originally Posted by GuestFellow
Not all women can get married.
Also not all women can get children. Or all men.
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GuestFellow
03-22-2013, 07:05 PM
I can't get married. I'm too ugly. :(
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sister herb
03-22-2013, 07:13 PM
One day you will meet sister who has thought all hers life like you:

I never get married as I am so ugly.



:statisfie
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GuestFellow
03-22-2013, 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by sister harb
I never get married as I am so ugly.


I LOVE THAT SMILEY! WHERE DO YOU GET ALL THOSE SMILES!!! +) *throws confetti*
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~Zaria~
03-22-2013, 07:36 PM
^ Akhee, by saying this, it would imply that you are not satisfied with Allah's design and His creation.

Dont judge yourself by what you lack (by society's standards).....but rather what you have - IMAAN - is there any greater gift than this?

As well as health, security, family, intelligence.....etc

We may believe that we have been 'denied' something.....but if we look at what we have been blessed with, we can NEVER enumerate Allah's blessings upon us.

Just think about how, right at this moment - your heart is beating, your kidneys are removing waste products, your stomach and intestines are busy digesting your food, your lungs are extracting oxygen from the air, your liver is doing other amazing things.....and theres sooo much more!

And all this is happening without you even thinking about it!
SubhanAllah.

We are all tested in different ways.....but never in a manner that is too difficult for us to bear.

Im reminded about Oscar Pistorius - the Para-olympian, who had both his legs amputated as a child (I know, its not a great time to be quoting him, but anyhows... :P ) - he once said:

'You are not disabled by your disabilites....but able by your abilities.'

Not many people in his position gets to be known as the 'Fastest man on no legs'.
You see, its all about how we wish to perceive ourselves and our lot in life.

And remember, Allah (subhanawataa'la) does not judge us by our appearances, but by our deeds.

So place your efforts here, for His pleasure is all that really matters.


:wasalamex
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sister herb
03-22-2013, 07:40 PM
^^ I just have special relationship with smileys.

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Abu Loren
03-22-2013, 07:46 PM
No doubt there are ugly people out there, may be it's just the way Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala made them to contrast the good looking people.
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Futuwwa
03-22-2013, 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by askimam.org
The concept of females working merely for economic independency has no basis in the Shari?ah. In fact, it is a root of many evils. It is this economic independency in a woman that gives her the courage to break her marital home. Consider the marital breakdown in the US (4-5) due to woman independency. If she was dependant, or her husband, she would exercise restraint and maintain her marriage. That is best in the interest of her family, husband and children. It does not mean that a woman should be dependant on men merely to maintain her marriage.

We have merely expressed the wisdom of a female being dependant. This also does not mean a female cannot be rich. She may earn an income but without violating the laws of the Shari?ah. Firstly, a wife must get the consent of her husband to work. If the husband refuses, she cannot work.
So ensuring marital stability by keeping women economically dependent on men is a good thing? Nevermind that a woman staying in a marriage only because of such dependence would likely be very miserable.

I wonder if the imam, or anyone endorsing this fatwa, would support the securing of marital stability by endorsing actions that rendered men economically dependent on staying married? How about imposing a catastropic economic penalty on any man seeking a divorce? How about it? If economic shackles are a valid way of preventing divorce, it should work both ways, right?
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White Rose
03-22-2013, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Abu Loren
The best job for a woman is looking after the household, bringing up the children and being a dutiful wife to their husbands. Anthing else is competing with men.
I think it is rude when you tell a gender to do what you think they should do. Allah SWT created everyone differently. Yes they should understand their role but I personally find it rude when someone enforces a role. As long as they are engaging in halal, it is their choice with what they do.
Also, what I am saying is different from the definition of equality. I think equality is the source of corruption. It makes people go against their biological nature.
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sister herb
03-22-2013, 08:28 PM
Salam alaykum

I am thinking my sister in Africa or in Asia in some country where state doesn´t give any kind of social security, possible there also is civil war. Sister has losted hers husband and she has children. No family background in cause of war. How she could get enough money to feed her family than go to what ever work she can do?

She might not be air hostess, doctor neither engineer. She might not ever been in the any school. When she go to ask job, is she some kind of competitor with men?

In my current volunteer job with sisters from the "third world" I have met many like this kind of sisters.
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Abu Loren
03-22-2013, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by ارجمند
Also, what I am saying is different from the definition of equality. I think equality is the source of corruption. It makes people go against their biological nature.
Very wise words indeed.
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~Zaria~
03-22-2013, 08:31 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
So ensuring marital stability by keeping women economically dependent on men is a good thing? Nevermind that a woman staying in a marriage only because of such dependence would likely be very miserable.

I wonder if the imam, or anyone endorsing this fatwa, would support the securing of marital stability by endorsing actions that rendered men economically dependent on staying married? How about imposing a catastropic economic penalty on any man seeking a divorce? How about it? If economic shackles are a valid way of preventing divorce, it should work both ways, right?

Brother, I sincerely hope that you would read up about the responsibilities of men and women in a marriage.
In short, men are the providers and protectors of women.
The status of women in Islam has been elevated to that of 'queens' in this dunya - there is no expectation on her to seek employment....and still fulfill the roles of mother and wife in the home.

This is not about being 'dependant' on men.

Rather, this is about understanding our roles as women, and the commands of Allah - that serve only for our benefit.

Much of our complaints stem from a lack of understanding of our deen.....and if we do possess this knowledge, then are we displeased with Allah's commands upon us?


:wasalamex
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GuestFellow
03-22-2013, 08:39 PM
Basically men and women should have skills that will enable them to get a job. Muslim men should try their best to put their skills to use and Muslim women should try to make sure of their skills if they don't have conflicting interests. Muslim women should equipped with some skills in case where there is no one to financially support her. The End. *plants a flower*
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IslamicRevival
03-22-2013, 08:44 PM
The Mother of all believers, Hazrat Khadija (May Allah be pleased with her) was a business woman so there's no reason for any Muslim to 'object' to women working.
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GuestFellow
03-22-2013, 08:45 PM
^ Women should not work because they are creating competition for men! I'm so flabbergasted.
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tearose
03-22-2013, 08:59 PM
Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
In short, men are the providers and protectors of women.
The status of women in Islam has been elevated to that of 'queens' in this dunya - there is no expectation on her to seek employment....and still fulfill the roles of mother and wife in the home.
This is not about being 'dependant' on men.
Rather, this is about understanding our roles as women, and the commands of Allah - that serve only for our benefit.
Much of our complaints stem from a lack of understanding of our deen.....and if we do possess this knowledge, then are we displeased with Allah's commands upon us?
As-salamu 3laikum sister,
I think the problem in a lot of cases is that many women are in a situation where they don't have any man to provide for and protect them. The fatwa that you posted looks like it was a brother who was asking about his wife working. That's completely different from a woman who has to meet her own needs. If I was married or had male relatives to support me, I wouldn't work, unless the women in the community needed a service that I had the skills to provide, and my husband agreed to it.
As it is, in certain countries it is almost impossible to fulfil all of the conditions for permissible work for women, especially the one about mixed workplaces. In my country I don't know of any all-female workplaces.
This is a serious problem and it feels very bad that people think working women are displeased with the commands of Allah. That is not at all the case, just that we can't seem to find a halal work situation. This is why I personally hope to make hijra as soon as I can in sha Allah, but in the meantime what can I do? We need advice from the scholars that takes into account this situation.
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~Zaria~
03-22-2013, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by tearose
As-salamu 3laikum sister,
I think the problem in a lot of cases is that many women are in a situation where they don't have any man to provide for and protect them. The fatwa that you posted looks like it was a brother who was asking about his wife working. That's completely different from a woman who has to meet her own needs. If I was married or had male relatives to support me, I wouldn't work, unless the women in the community needed a service that I had the skills to provide, and my husband agreed to it.
As it is, in certain countries it is almost impossible to fulfil all of the conditions for permissible work for women, especially the one about mixed workplaces. In my country I don't know of any all-female workplaces.
This is a serious problem and it feels very bad that people think working women are displeased with the commands of Allah. That is not at all the case, just that we can't seem to find a halal work situation. This is why I personally hope to make hijra as soon as I can in sha Allah, but in the meantime what can I do? We need advice from the scholars that takes into account this situation.

:wasalamex sister,

I think that there may be a mis-understanding -

Islam has not forbidden women from working.

Indeed, as you and others have mentioned, there may be genuine circumstances where it is encumbent for a woman to go out to work.

Apart from financial desperation, there are also many situations were it is in fact, more suitable for a woman to be in a particular profession vs a man - e.g:

http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/18872

http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/17919

http://www.askimam.org/public/question_detail/16497


However, in these situations it is for the woman to realise that the responsibility of proper hijab rests upon her - by way of niqaab, the manner in which she interacts with other men, her speech, etc.
And that we realise too, that there are certain occupations that would be more suitable for a woman, in the event that she finds herself in need of employment.


The point that was being made is that - while we may have our own opinions on the matter (and this is fine), what matters even more is to understand our roles as women through Quraan and Sunnah - for which we should try to consult our scholars in our community if we are in any doubt.

In shaa Allah, in this way, we are sincerely only seeking goodness for ourselves and the pleasure of Allah Taa'la.


BarakAllahu feekum
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Aprender
03-22-2013, 09:28 PM
:wa:

I am a revert to Islam and a recent graduate from the university. Ever since an early age I knew that I wanted to work to contribute to society in a positive way. Since my conversion to Islam, I've refocused my career goals to put myself in a position that is more in line with following the "rules" set forth in Islam. My father, while he doesn't agree with my conversion to Islam, knows that he isn't going to be around forever and wants to make sure that I have a way to provide for myself.

As a revert in the United States who is cut off from the rest of the Muslim community due to cultural barriers, it's likely that I won't be getting any marriage proposals anytime soon. Allah knows if there are any brothers out there interested in making me a wife. Either way, it doesn't mean that I'm not going to use the tools and skills that I have to benefit society in some way and that's what I'm trying to do now with the talents that Allah has given me. I work in a business position where, alhamdulillah, as a hijabi I have the opportunity to do something that I enjoy while also being able to pay back my debts and give back to the Muslim community as much as I can. And in shaa Allah I'll be making some moves soon to start something to help the Muslim youth here. I work in an office full of non-Muslims from different backgrounds where I am allowed to pray and my rights as a Muslim woman are fully respected. Even down to them making sure they order halal food for me during a lunch meetings!

I am inspired by the societies that Muslims have built in the past and even the Jewish community here that does so much to ensure that their youth grow up knowledgeable of their religious heritage. I am not going to allow the fact that I am a sister to not do more to help the community as a whole. I'm not going to sit back and wait for end of the world prophecys to be fulfilled that may or may not happen in our lifetime to prevent me from doing what I should to help the Muslim youth grow in knowledge of this deen and be happy and grateful that they are Muslims. I've had enough of people talking about what we don't do, how misguided the youth are and how bad the state of the Ummah is. I believe that Allah put us here in this time and we have the challenges we have for a reason. No need to sit back and wait for someone else to come along and clean them up when we have the ability to take the initiative and do it ourselves. And right now, with a job, with the knowledge that I have from my education, I am able to do so much more with my own income to give back in areas where it's needed.
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Futuwwa
03-22-2013, 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
Brother, I sincerely hope that you would read up about the responsibilities of men and women in a marriage.
In short, men are the providers and protectors of women.
The status of women in Islam has been elevated to that of 'queens' in this dunya - there is no expectation on her to seek employment....and still fulfill the roles of mother and wife in the home.

This is not about being 'dependant' on men.

Rather, this is about understanding our roles as women, and the commands of Allah - that serve only for our benefit.

Much of our complaints stem from a lack of understanding of our deen.....and if we do possess this knowledge, then are we displeased with Allah's commands upon us?

:wasalamex
This is a red herring. You are talking about men providing for women, which is religiously mandated. The imam is talking about women being forced into situations where they have no alternative but to rely on men, and idolizes the dependence it causes.

Is not divorce halal, or at worst makruh? Are then women supposed to be prevented from it by imposing dependence on them?
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tearose
03-22-2013, 09:36 PM
@ sister Zaria,

I did understand you, I was really talking about the conditions of permissibility rather than the permissibility itself, if that makes sense. Thank you for the additional information. I agree with you that women in this situation should do whatever they can to understand the Qur'an and Sunnah and look for the most suitable work, and consult a scholar about their particular situation, if necessary.

jazaki Allahu khair
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~Zaria~
03-23-2013, 10:12 AM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
This is a red herring. You are talking about men providing for women, which is religiously mandated. The imam is talking about women being forced into situations where they have no alternative but to rely on men, and idolizes the dependence it causes.

Is not divorce halal, or at worst makruh? Are then women supposed to be prevented from it by imposing dependence on them?


Akhee, I truly do not believe that this is the message that the mufti is trying to send.....

He says:

The concept of females working merely for economic independency has no basis in the Shari?ah.
Many may agree, that it is the fact that women are so much more independant (than for e.g. in times of the prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasalam), and the nations before him), that this has indeed provided women more 'leeway' in letting go of their marriages, rather than trying to work the problems out.

Quite often marriages are ending for trivial matters..... that would not have occured if the wife's livelihood (and that of her kids) depended more on her husband.

We live in an age where the current thinking is - whatever a man can do.....so can/ will a woman.

As Sh Imran Hossein describes - just as the day follows the night, and the night follows the day by a natural order......when this natural balance is shifted (i.e when the roles of men and women are no longer well defined/ are swopped) - this leads to chaos.
As reflected (to some extent) by the increase in broken homes, etc.

However - this is not to imply that women are meant to endure abuse and misery in their marriages, simply because the man is the bread-winner.

Mufti himself says:

It does not mean that a woman should be dependant on men merely to maintain her marriage.

We have merely expressed the wisdom of a female being dependant.

This also does not mean a female cannot be rich. She may earn an income but without violating the laws of the Shari?ah.

In shaa Allah, this brings more clarity.



:wasalamex
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Futuwwa
03-23-2013, 11:13 AM
So the dependency of a woman is a good thing when it makes her stay in good marriages, but not a good thing if it makes her stay in a marriage where she has to endure abuse?

Unfortunately you get either both or none. Unless the mufti knows of a way to make sure that only women with good husbands remain dependent?
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GuestFellow
03-23-2013, 03:05 PM
Putting your eggs in one basket is never a good idea. =)
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Cabdullahi
03-24-2013, 12:41 AM
Muslim women should work in the kitchen! as plumbers or electricians
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sister herb
03-24-2013, 05:06 AM
In the kitchen? Why?

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marwen
03-24-2013, 07:13 AM
I don't know :(
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Scimitar
03-24-2013, 07:22 AM
Originally Posted by sister harb
In the kitchen? Why?

because men always make a mess :D

Scimi
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Pure Purple
03-24-2013, 08:59 AM
Sister Innocent soul,I think you are confuse in deciding your higher studies.I would recommend you to be primary or kindergarten teacher.You are so humble , soft hearted person,patience,these all required to deal with kids.: P
OR you can take admission to good islamic institute and excel in tajweed etc and you can teach tajweed to kids,you will be sadqa-e-jariya for your parents.: D
btw are you interested in journalism? I read your post somewhere on the forum
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sister herb
03-24-2013, 09:34 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
because men always make a mess :D

Scimi
Thats true!

I worked in the resteurant kitchen before with 3 brothers. I would manage to make all foods alone without them. Much easy.
'



It wasn´t possible as I had to be they cheff cook.
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~Zaria~
03-24-2013, 10:11 AM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
So the dependency of a woman is a good thing when it makes her stay in good marriages, but not a good thing if it makes her stay in a marriage where she has to endure abuse?

Unfortunately you get either both or none. Unless the mufti knows of a way to make sure that only women with good husbands remain dependent?

الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَآءِ بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللَّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَآ أَنفَقُواْ مِنْ أَمْوَلِهِمْ

4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend (to support them) from their means.


Ibn Kathir:

Men are the protectors and maintainers of women,

meaning, the man is responsible for the woman, and he is her maintainer, caretaker and leader who disciplines her if she deviates.

because Allah has made one of them to excel the other,

meaning, because men excel over women and are better than them for certain tasks. This is why Prophethood was exclusive of men, as well as other important positions of leadership.

The Prophet (sallahu alaihi wasalam) said, People who appoint a woman to be their leader, will never achieve success.
Al-Bukhari recorded this Hadith.
Such is the case with appointing women as judges or on other positions of leadership.


and because they spend from their means.

meaning the dowry, expenditures and various expenses that Allah ordained in His Book and the Sunnah of His Messenger for men to spend on women. For these reasons it is suitable that he is appointed her maintainer, just as Allah said, وَلِلرِّجَالِ عَلَيْهِنَّ دَرَجَةٌ (But men have a degree (of responsibility) over them). (2:228)


Ibn Jarir recorded that Abu Hurayrah said that the Messenger of Allah said,

خَيْرُ النِّسَاءِ امْرَأَةٌ إِذَا نَظَرْتَ إِلَيْهَا سَرَّتْكَ، وَإِذَا أَمَرْتَهَا أَطَاعَتْكَ، وَإِذَا غِبْتَ عَنْهَا حَفِظَتْكَ فِي نَفْسِهَا وَمَالِك


The best women is she who when you look at her, she pleases you, when you command her she obeys you, and when you are absent, she protects her honor and your property.

Then, the Messenger of Allah recited the Ayah, الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاء (Men are the protectors and maintainers of women), until its end.

Imam Ahmad recorded that Abdur-Rahman bin 'Awf said that the Messenger of Allah said,

إِذَا صَلَّتِ الْمَرْأَةُ خَمْسَهَا، وَصَامَتْ شَهْرَهَا، وَحَفِظَتْ فَرْجَهَا، وَأَطَاعَتْ زَوْجَهَا، قِيلَ لَهَا: ادْخُلِي الْجَنَّةَ مِنْ أَيِّ الْأَبْوَابِ شِئْت


If the woman prayed her five daily prayers, fasted her month, protected her chastity and obeyed her husband, she will be told,

'Enter Paradise from any of its doors you wish.'



:wasalamex
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Futuwwa
03-24-2013, 12:25 PM
And where does the Quran say that dependency is a good thing?
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~Zaria~
03-24-2013, 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
And where does the Quran say that dependency is a good thing?
Please read the previous post again and reflect upon its meaning.

The word of Allah azza wajjal is clear for those who open their hearts to it.


Also note, that the system of Islam has made it such, that for a woman to earn her own livelihood is not her responsibility.

If she is a daughter, Shariah has made the father responsible to provide for his daughter. If she is a wife, the husband is made responsible. If she is a mother, the son has to take care of her. If she is a sister, the responsibility is put upon the shoulders of her brother. If she has no immediate relatives, then Shariah has made it that her far relatives must look after her. In a case where she has no relatives at all, the Islamic government has to take this responsibility. Never does Shariah force a woman to go out in the work field and provide for herself, thereby making it easier upon her to maintain her shame and modesty. (from askimam.org)

Under todays circumstances, where we do not live under Shariah law, women have no choice but to go out to work and fend for themselves and their kids.

As I have mentioned previously, this is not about 'being dependant' upon a man.

Women are still entitled to study and increase their knowledge, and serve the ummah - in ways that are best suited to a woman, and where her modesty and duties to her husband are not compromised.

The fact that there are men who do not honour their women - does not reduce from the wisdom of Allah (subhanawataálas) commands upon us.

Islam (and its teachings) is perfect.
Muslims are not.
Do not confuse the two.


:wasalamex
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Futuwwa
03-24-2013, 01:15 PM
And you keep posting red herrings and equating two things that are, objectively, not the same.

1) Men are religiously mandated to provide for women

2) Women being dependent on men is a good thing

We all agree with 1), so can you stop spamming the point? Doing so does, in no way, imply that 2) is true. Are you capable of defending 2) on its own? Or, demonstrate that 2) follows from 1) through deductive logic?
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~Zaria~
03-24-2013, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
And you keep posting red herrings and equating two things that are, objectively, not the same.

1) Men are religiously mandated to provide for women

2) Women being dependent on men is a good thing

We all agree with 1), so can you stop spamming the point? Doing so does, in no way, imply that 2) is true. Are you capable of defending 2) on its own? Or, demonstrate that 2) follows from 1) through deductive logic?

If you are able to see life through the eyes of Quraan and Sunnah, then you will be able to understand the 2 points in relation to each other.

It is not for us to use 'deductive logic' in matters of fiqh - if you cannot understand such issues in light of what has been presented (and this is fine, as we are not scholars in this field), then as I have mentioned - seek counsel with those who can provide you with this knowledge.

As I have already provided you with the statements of Mufti Ebrahim Desai - and you are still not happy with this, then perhaps you should ask yourself why you are in contempt of the guidance of our knowledgeable scholars.

I am not here to force you into agreement.

That choice is yours.


:wasalamex
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Futuwwa
03-24-2013, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
If you are able to see life through the eyes of Quraan and Sunnah, then you will be able to understand the 2 points in relation to each other.
In other words, you have no argument whatsoever in support of your position, you are simply right "just because" and I too would see it if I was as wise, pious and knowledgeable as you.

Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
It is not for us to use 'deductive logic' in matters of fiqh - if you cannot understand such issues in light of what has been presented (and this is fine, as we are not scholars in this field), then as I have mentioned - seek counsel with those who can provide you with this knowledge.

As I have already provided you with the statements of Mufti Ebrahim Desai - and you are still not happy with this, then perhaps you should ask yourself why you are in contempt of the guidance of our knowledgeable scholars.
Who died and empowered him with superpowers of infallibility?

If we are not supposed to discuss things freely, what's the point of this thread to begin with? To argue by copypasting the opinions of scholars? If they disagree, how do we determine whose scholar wins?
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~Zaria~
03-24-2013, 03:10 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa

Who died and empowered him with superpowers of infallibility?
And this would indicate your respect for scholars who spent a lot more time studying this deen.... many of whom have dedicated their lives in the pursuit of acquiring knowledge and imparting it to this ummah.

Originally Posted by Futuwwa
If we are not supposed to discuss things freely, what's the point of this thread to begin with? To argue by copypasting the opinions of scholars? If they disagree, how do we determine whose scholar wins?
This was my point in my second post on this thread.
That these topics in fiqh are not for us to be providing our opinions on.....and trying to reach our own conclusions.
This is not a topic open to voting and a poll.
If the poll indicates that the majority here believe that most women should go out and work - what does that actually mean?

This is a sign of arrogance on our parts.

As Moulana Sulaiman Moola has once said:

"I fear when such people (who have no understanding of deen), have become the leaders of the ummat - it is Qiyamat, it is Qimayat.....
Ulema gave their lives deducing these conclusions.....
But here (are some) misleading and beguiling the masses."

This is not even an issue where there is major differences of interpretation between the madhabs.

If you cannot/ do not wish to understand, then at the very least, try to show some respect for the ulema in our communities.
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Futuwwa
03-24-2013, 03:27 PM
If "respect" consists of having to accept everything they say without being allowed to raise objections or counter-questions, then they'll have to do without my respect.
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GuestFellow
03-24-2013, 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
And this would indicate your respect for scholars who spent a lot more time studying this deen.... many of whom have dedicated their lives in the pursuit of acquiring knowledge and imparting it to this ummah.
How does respect come into the equation? Are we supposed to blindly accept everything?

If an Islamic scholar introduces a rule which says Muslims are not allowed to do X and Y. Then we as Muslims have every right to find out the basis for his rulings. Nothing wrong with that. In fact we are helping the scholar because scholars can make mistakes too! It's true! My cockatiel told me.



Isn't he the most adorable little psycho?
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Haya emaan
03-24-2013, 04:54 PM
Assalam o alaikum

i didn't voted because i think Muslim women should acquire high education/degrees and can do reputed jobs within religious boundaries, but not all today's 'reputed' jobs are 'reputed' to do for Muslim women..
also depends on the society she lives..


personally i would not encourage women of my house to go out and work where males of my house are fulfilling their responsibility to feed us and take care of all sorts of our needs unless there is some serious financial needs or they have stand to balance some society requirements like we here need female doctors and professors or for some community work. otherwise i don't see any point to burdenize one self where Allah has given ease..
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GuestFellow
03-24-2013, 05:06 PM
Why is a degree a must have? It's not necessary. I personally advocate vocational qualifications.
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