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Abu Loren
03-23-2013, 09:48 AM
Muslims praying inside the Church in UK

By: Yasmine Hamdy
St John's Episcopal Church in Aberdeen, Scotland, is now having a lot of Muslims praying five times a day inside the church, this is due to the small size of the mosque.
Although some churches in America allow Muslims to pray, this incident is considered the first of its type in UK.
We all hope these beloved feelings to prevail among all Muslims and Christians all over the world.

http://arabia.msn.com/news/world/172...-church-in-uk/


All Christian churches contain the cross and other idols of Christian worship. Why in the world would Muslims go to a church of all places for worship? I've heard about the sharing of worship in the USA so is this becoming popular or just out of necessity?

In my honest opinion it is better to pray in the car park outside than to pray in a church. Allahu Alum.
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Jedi_Mindset
03-25-2013, 04:01 PM
''By: Yasmine Hamdy
St John's Episcopal Church in Aberdeen, Scotland, is now having a lot of Muslims praying five times a day inside the church, this is due to the small size of the mosque.
Although some churches in America allow Muslims to pray, this incident is considered the first of its type in UK.
We all hope these beloved feelings to prevail among all Muslims and Christians all over the world.''

I think in this case it should be a necessity, its always better to pray in a group than at home, where shaytaan will try to ruin your prayer anytime. In a group, should to shoulder shaytaan cant fit between it :)


Reply

Woodrow
03-25-2013, 04:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
Muslims praying inside the Church in UK

By: Yasmine Hamdy
St John's Episcopal Church in Aberdeen, Scotland, is now having a lot of Muslims praying five times a day inside the church, this is due to the small size of the mosque.
Although some churches in America allow Muslims to pray, this incident is considered the first of its type in UK.
We all hope these beloved feelings to prevail among all Muslims and Christians all over the world.

http://arabia.msn.com/news/world/172...-church-in-uk/


All Christian churches contain the cross and other idols of Christian worship. Why in the world would Muslims go to a church of all places for worship? I've heard about the sharing of worship in the USA so is this becoming popular or just out of necessity?

In my honest opinion it is better to pray in the car park outside than to pray in a church. Allahu Alum.
I believe in the Episcopal Churches they only have the crosses out during the time of the Church services.

Also many of the larger churches have separate auditoriums that are not used for church services.
Reply

Eric H
03-25-2013, 04:53 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Abu Loren;

All Christian churches contain the cross and other idols of Christian worship. Why in the world would Muslims go to a church of all places for worship? I've heard about the sharing of worship in the USA so is this becoming popular or just out of necessity?

In my honest opinion it is better to pray in the car park outside than to pray in a church. Allahu Alum.
It is always good to share, maybe some Muslim community could do the same for a Christian community with a small or damaged church.

In the spirit of praying to one and the same God

Eric
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Abu Loren
03-25-2013, 05:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
It is always good to share, maybe some Muslim community could do the same for a Christian community with a small or damaged church.
Peace to you Mr. Eric

I for one do not believe in this lovey dovey let's hold hands and hug type of mentality. I consider myself saved by embracing Islam the religion of God Almighty. I want to distance myself so far from Christians that I'm now finding it difficult with Muslims adopting the ways of the Mushrik. Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Salaam) invited the Christians to the New Covenent but they refused therefore they are still astray. I truly believe that if a believer befriends a Christian in religion then he will also be lead astray.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
In the spirit of praying to one and the same God
If you truly believe in One God only then you must accept hi Final Revelation and His Final Messenger to mankind. No if's but's or maybe's.
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glo
03-25-2013, 06:51 PM
It is not apparent whether crosses are present in this church or not - although the stained glass windows in the pictures certainly depict saints.

However, as I understand the Muslim congregation is using the church hall for their prayers, not the church itself. (After all, Islamic prayer times may at times clash with church services, when the church would be used for its primary purpose)

"They have now been offered the use of part of the Episcopalian church hall for daily prayers."




Link
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glo
03-25-2013, 06:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you Abu Loren;



It is always good to share, maybe some Muslim community could do the same for a Christian community with a small or damaged church.

In the spirit of praying to one and the same God

Eric
Hi Eric

I believe whole-heartedly in this lovey dovey let's hold hands and hug type of mentality and would happily pray in a masjid or have Muslims pray in our church. :D
Insha'Allah we will see more of this.
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Abu Loren
03-25-2013, 07:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Hi Eric

I believe whole-heartedly in this lovey dovey let's hold hands and hug type of mentality and would happily pray in a masjid or have Muslims pray in our church. :D
Insha'Allah we will see more of this.
Hello dear

It's really nice when non Muslims use the Arabic expressions such as Inshaa Allah etc.. :statisfie
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IAmZamzam
03-25-2013, 07:29 PM
As long as they're not using the cross I fail to see the problem. You could probably pray inside the dressing room at a night club as long as there's peace and quiet there at the moment, and an absence of distraction. We are judged for our intentions, not for who we're consorting with in some vague symbolic way. As long as you get to do it somewhere.
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Abu Loren
03-25-2013, 07:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
As long as they're not using the cross I fail to see the problem. You could probably pray inside the dressing room at a night club as long as there's peace and quiet there at the moment, and an absence of distraction. We are judged for our intentions, not for who we're consorting with in some vague symbolic way. As long as you get to do it somewhere.
The cross is there inside the church isn't it? We are not supposed to pray infront of idols. Full stop. Period. End of.
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IAmZamzam
03-25-2013, 08:04 PM
I'm as human as anyone, Abu. If you think you've seen an authentic hadith saying, "No Muslim is allowed to pray in the same building as an idol for any reason at all, even if there is no other viable place to pray anywhere around him," then I'd be glad to look into that. I may well have missed something. There are only so many ahadith I've read before. But of course if all the passage in question says is "do not pray in front of an idol" then can we be absolutely sure that doesn't just mean "don't stand before an idol and look at it when you pray"? Or for that matter "don't use idols"?
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IAmZamzam
03-25-2013, 08:08 PM
On second thought you could be right. Maybe it was the same principle as having an icon in your house. I guess that in the end, though, this is a matter strictly between these people and their Maker. What we're doing here isn't too far from gossip.
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Abu Loren
03-25-2013, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
I'm as human as anyone, Abu. If you think you've seen an authentic hadith saying, "No Muslim is allowed to pray in the same building as an idol for any reason at all, even if there is no other viable place to pray anywhere around him," then I'd be glad to look into that. I may well have missed something. There are only so many ahadith I've read before. But of course if all the passage in question says is "do not pray in front of an idol" then can we be absolutely sure that doesn't just mean "don't stand before an idol and look at it when you pray"? Or for that matter "don't use idols"?
Narrated `Aisha:
Um Habiba and Um Salama mentioned a church they had seen in Ethiopia and in the church there were pictures. When they told the Prophet (

) of this, he said, "Those people are such that if a pious man amongst them died, they build a place of worship over his grave and paint these pictures in it. Those people will be Allah's worst creatures on the Day of Resurrection . "


Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 3873
In-book reference : Book 63, Hadith 99
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 5, Book 58, Hadith 213
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Abu Loren
03-25-2013, 08:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
On second thought you could be right. Maybe it was the same principle as having an icon in your house. I guess that in the end, though, this is a matter strictly between these people and their Maker. What we're doing here isn't too far from gossip.
No bro you are gossipping, I'm educating you. LOL
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Muhammad
03-25-2013, 08:11 PM
:salamext: Abu Loren,

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
I for one do not believe in this lovey dovey let's hold hands and hug type of mentality. I consider myself saved by embracing Islam the religion of God Almighty. I want to distance myself so far from Christians that I'm now finding it difficult with Muslims adopting the ways of the Mushrik. Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Salaam) invited the Christians to the New Covenent but they refused therefore they are still astray. I truly believe that if a believer befriends a Christian in religion then he will also be lead astray.
This issue is not about compromising values. There are many examples where Muslims use a chapel in work environments to pray Jumuah, as that is the only space big enough to accommodate them. We should at least recognise this gesture from Christians in allowing Muslims to use their facilities. It does not mean we are compromising what we believe to be the truth.

Also, none of us can consider ourselves 'saved', as we do not know in what state we will die, or about our deeds and intentions. We are required to continously ask Allaah :swt: for guidance in each and every one of our prayers, day and night. We need Allaah :swt: every moment of our lives to help us remain firm on the path of guidance and to make us even more firm and persistent on it. We do not have the power to benefit or harm ourselves, except by Allaah's permission. So it is not simply the case that one enters Islam and is automatically guaranteed Paradise. Even the most honourable Companions of the Prophet :saws: would fear what their final abode would be and whether their deeds were accepted, so how can we feel so secure about ourselves?

We should do our best to reach out to people and engage in dialogue as the Prophet :saws: did. It is not enough to simply tell people that they must accept the Final Revelation. They need to hear the message in a way that will convince them of its truth, and we should also demonstrate in our words and actions what the Final Revelation teaches.

And Allaah :swt: knows best.
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Scimitar
03-25-2013, 08:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you Abu Loren;



It is always good to share, maybe some Muslim community could do the same for a Christian community with a small or damaged church.

In the spirit of praying to one and the same God

Eric
I think there was a case in the USA where Muslims opened the doors to their mosque to allow Jews to worship there. I remember seeing an article about this here on IB forum.

It would be interesting to see how Muslim/Christian relations go in light of the ACW initiative: www.acommonword.com - I have joined them and get regular updates about this initiative and am all for it.

One of my favourite scholars, Shailkh Habib Ali Al Jifri, is a prominent figure in this effort. It's well worth the read up. The pdf article is a gem. :) there is hope. There is always hope.

Scimi
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Abu Loren
03-25-2013, 08:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
We should do our best to reach out to people and engage in dialogue as the Prophet did. It is not enough to simply tell people that they must accept the Final Revelation. They need to hear the message in a way that will convince them of its truth, and we should also demonstrate in our words and actions what the Final Revelation teaches.
You are absolutely right. But on the flip side is that most people are so scured in their belief that nothing will dislodge them. They require guidance from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and they need to change themselves internally. The Christians here are not going to convert any time soon unless Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has choosen them.
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IAmZamzam
03-25-2013, 08:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
No bro you are gossipping, I'm educating you. LOL
You have suggested about four times now (I've lost count) that I stop posting here. I have a better idea. Since you find what I say to be of such little value how about you just put me on your "ignore" list? I'm certainly, God willing, about to put you on mine. It's a very handy function and seems to be quickly becoming my favorite feature in this place.
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Scimitar
03-25-2013, 08:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
There is always hope.
but we need to stop bickering amongst ourselves first.
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Abu Loren
03-25-2013, 08:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
You have suggested about four times now (I've lost count) that I stop posting here. I have a better idea. Since you find what I say to be of such little value how about you just put me on your "ignore" list? I'm certainly, God willing, about to put you on mine. It's a very handy function and seems to be quickly becoming my favorite feature in this place.
Don't be silly John I even used LOL at the end. You must discern my dark sense of humour, c'mon.
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tearose
03-25-2013, 08:27 PM
As-salamu 3laikum,

On the last Eid the Muslim community in my town prayed in a church hall because the community has really outgrown our small masjid. In sha Allah we might get a bigger masjid one day but in the meantime what other option is there? According to the scholars on Islamqa it is permissible to pray in a church if there are no images or statues, and if there are then the prayer is valid but it there is a difference of opinion if it is makrooh or haram to do so. But they also say in cases of necessity it is ok, especially if they can cover the statues/images while praying http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/147007/church
Presumably in this case they prayed there out of necessity because their masjid was not big enough, and probably in the church hall there wouldn't be statues or images, or if there were they could cover them. Allah knows best.
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Eric H
03-26-2013, 09:15 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Abu Loren;

I for one do not believe in this lovey dovey let's hold hands and hug type of mentality.
I guess the opposite of not sharing the church; would be for the Christians to ignore the plight of their fellow brothers and sisters. When people live in a community together, it is more beneficial to build a caring and sharing community despite all their differences. This does not lead to compromising your beliefs.

When people ignore the needs of their neighbours, conflicts can arise, in extreme cases this can lead to bombs and murder, we know this to be true.

In the spirit of praying to ‘One God’

Eric
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Eric H
03-26-2013, 09:38 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Abu Loren;

The Christians here are not going to convert any time soon unless Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has choosen them.
The world would be a very sad place if everyone was a Catholic like me, we should have nothing to argue about because we all believe the same. This utopia can never exist, because we would still find ways to argue and disagree with each other even if we share the same beliefs.

Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala in his wisdom has given us a diversity of beliefs, we each have the task of working out what we should do about our differences. As you have said it is not within our own powers to change others, if we try then we might be fighting against God.

Scriptures are more powerful when we strive to change ourselves first, rather than strive to change others.

In the spirit of praying to ‘One God’

Eric
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Abu Loren
03-26-2013, 09:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you Abu Loren;



I guess the opposite of not sharing the church; would be for the Christians to ignore the plight of their fellow brothers and sisters. When people live in a community together, it is more beneficial to build a caring and sharing community despite all their differences. This does not lead to compromising your beliefs.

When people ignore the needs of their neighbours, conflicts can arise, in extreme cases this can lead to bombs and murder, we know this to be true.

In the spirit of praying to ‘One God’

Eric
I may be alone here in my thinking but I would say that it is beter for them to pray outside in the car park than to pray inside that church.
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sister herb
03-26-2013, 09:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
The cross is there inside the church isn't it? We are not supposed to pray infront of idols. Full stop. Period. End of.
Salam alaykum

I don´t know how they do in UK but in my country some churches let muslims use they houses (churches) for islamic prayers. Here christian priests cover idols. We both don´t see any problem with that.
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Abu Loren
03-26-2013, 09:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you Abu Loren;



The world would be a very sad place if everyone was a Catholic like me, we should have nothing to argue about because we all believe the same. This utopia can never exist, because we would still find ways to argue and disagree with each other even if we share the same beliefs.

Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala in his wisdom has given us a diversity of beliefs, we each have the task of working out what we should do about our differences. As you have said it is not within our own powers to change others, if we try then we might be fighting against God.

Scriptures are more powerful when we strive to change ourselves first, rather than strive to change others.

In the spirit of praying to ‘One God’

Eric
Your peace and love kind of attitude is commendable but the believers are to keep the non-believers at an arms distance, this is because the non-beleivers will lead the believers astray.
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Ali_008
03-26-2013, 01:03 PM
:sl:

Uhhh... I don't see any problem with this. I see it rather as a step in the right direction, because us Muslims are already perceived as wild folks, and if the Christians will see how humble our method of prayer is then it might as well motivate them to look up more authentic material about Islam. As a matter of fact, there was a Hadeeth as well in which Rasoolullah :saws: mentioned that for a believer the whole of the earth is a mosque. I don't have the reference for it right now, but I will in shaa Allah look it up. There are only a minimal number of places where prayer is totally prohibited such as the graveyard, the lavatory, and the place where the camels lie. As we all know, our sahaba used to offer prayer even in the middle of wars, and when a battlefield which is soaked with blood, sweat, and injuries of the soldiers is not a bad enough place for prayer to be offered there, I don't understand why a clean and well maintained establishment like a church can't qualify? Plus, you have to realize that what matters most is the intentions. If Muslims are offering Salaah in a Church, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are prostrating to Christ (AlayhiSalaam). In addition to that, I'm also sure that the staff of the mosque must have made sure that the place where they will be offering salaah doesn't have any prominent Christian signs and symbols.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
Your peace and love kind of attitude is commendable but the believers are to keep the non-believers at an arms distance, this is because the non-beleivers will lead the believers astray.
Islam wouldn't have had such a flourishing spread if everyone misconstrued that statement like this. If we start keeping non-Muslims at arms length, who's going to be inviting them to Islam?
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Abu Loren
03-26-2013, 03:27 PM
Those who do not see anything wrong with this then ponder on these...

Sahih International

And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of you until you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah is the [only] guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what has come to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper. 2:120


Let not believers take disbelievers as allies rather than believers. And whoever [of you] does that has nothing with Allah , except when taking precaution against them in prudence. And Allah warns you of Himself, and to Allah is the [final] destination. 3:28

Narrated Abu Sa`id:
The Prophet (

) said, "You will follow the wrong ways, of your predecessors so completely and literally that if they should go into the hole of a mastigure, you too will go there." We said, "O Allah's Messenger (

)! Do you mean the Jews and the Christians?" He replied, "Whom else?" (Meaning, of course, the Jews and the Christians.)


Reference : Sahih al-Bukhari 3456
In-book reference : Book 60, Hadith 123
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Vol. 4, Book 55, Hadith 662

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Muhammad
03-26-2013, 03:56 PM
:salamext: brother,

It is not for us to pass a ruling on this issue, especially as we do not know the exact circumstances behind which the incident occurred. Some scholars have allowed praying in churches (whilst others have opined differently), so we should be cautious in what we say in case we are mistaken. For instance:

Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the World; and may His blessings and peace be upon our Prophet Muhammad and upon all his Family and Companions.

The majority of scholars permit praying in churches. But some scholars dislike doing so. It is said that it is dislikeable only because there are statues and pictures in it. The evidence for this is what is reported by al-Bukhari who said: " Umar Ibn al-Khattab said to a Christian man: 'We do not enter your churches because they contain statues and pictures'. Ibn Abbas used to pray in chapels unless they contained statues" .

So, we believe that it is permissible for you to pray in the church if it is clean and you cannot find another place. But the Muslim should not go often to churches as this might cause some people to speak badly of him.
Allah knows best.

http://french.islamweb.net/emainpage...twaId&Id=84876

There is no harm in praying in a church. This was held permissible by Al-Hasan, ‘Umar ibn ‘Abdul-‘Azeez, Ash-Sha‘bi and others for the general indication of the Hadeeth in which the Prophet

, said: "Wherever (you may be, and) the prayer time becomes due, perform the prayer, for all the earth is a place of prayer for you." [Al-Bukhaari and Muslim] Some scholars considered it disliked to pray there due to the images therein. This is the opinion of Maalik and Ibn ‘Abbaas, may Allaah be Pleased with them. It was also said that praying in churches is disliked because it is like honoring and reverence to them. Moreover, it was argued that it is disliked because the Christians may feel uncomfortable about such an action. The first opinion is preferable if one needs to do this and does not make it a habit...

http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...atwaId&Id=3121

The Muslims should strive as much as they can to build their own places of worship, which should be built according to Islamic sharee’ah, structurally sound, without extravagance or decoration. If the Muslims cannot build their own mosques and they need a place to pray, and they cannot find anywhere other than a church, then “hiring churches to pray in them is not forbidden in sharee’ah if it is necessary, but praying towards statues and pictures should be avoided, and they should be covered or concealed if they are in the direction of the qiblah.”
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/1833

...If there are images or statues in it, the fuqaha’ differed concerning the ruling on praying there in that case. Some of them are of the view that it is haraam, but the majority are of the view that it is makrooh. The reason given by those who regard it as haraam is the general meaning of the evidence which indicates that statues and keeping them are haraam, because the presence of these images prevents the angels from entering that place...

[...]

To sum up:

1. There is nothing wrong with praying inside the church if it is free of images and statues, whether that is Jumu‘ah prayer or any other prayer.
2. It is makrooh to pray in a church if there are images or statues in it. If the Muslims need to pray there because there is no other place available, and they cover these statues with something that will conceal them, there is nothing wrong with it and it is not makrooh.
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/147007

And Allaah :swt: knows best.
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IslamicRevival
03-26-2013, 04:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
Those who do not see anything wrong with this then ponder on these..
Sacred knowledge isnt to be tampered with so be mindful before posting Ayah's/Texts from Quran/Hadith. Sheikh internet is not your one stop Fatwa shop

Anyway. I came across this video some time ago and thought is was beautiful, Azan recited in a Church.
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tearose
03-26-2013, 04:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ali_008
If Muslims are offering Salaah in a Church, it doesn't necessarily mean that they are prostrating to Christ (AlayhiSalaam).
:wa:

I hope it never means that.
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tearose
03-26-2013, 04:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
Those who do not see anything wrong with this then ponder on these...
:sl:

Brother you cannot just post ayaat from the holy Qur'an and ahadith without any context or explanation whatsoever and expect your point of view to take precedence over the explanation of respected scholars who have studied all their lives about how to interpret them and relate them to rulings. If you have heard from someone of knowledge how these ayaat and hadith apply to this situation then please post the explanation so it would add to the discussion.
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Abu Loren
03-26-2013, 05:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Vision
Sacred knowledge isnt to be tampered with so be mindful before posting Ayah's/Texts from Quran/Hadith. Sheikh internet is not your one stop Fatwa shop
OK fine just tell me what is wrong with the ayat and the hadith that I've quoted. If you people do not understand then don't hinder those who do. We don't need sheiks to explain every ayat of the Qur'an when they are painfully simple and clear?

Does anybody understand the following ayat? Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala made the Qur'an so simple to understand that we don't need to run to the sheiks every time for the meaning.

Sahih International

Indeed, We have made it an Arabic Qur'an that you might understand. 43:3
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sister herb
03-26-2013, 05:27 PM
Salam alaykum

Brother Abu Loren!

You take just one ayat from the Quran and use it as reason of your own opinions.

:hmm:

You are as narrowminded than you claim others are. I ignore you.
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White Rose
03-26-2013, 05:27 PM
:sl:

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't Hazrat Umar (RA) found himself in a similar situation where he was asked to pray in the church but he refused saying that if he did that, Muslims after him will think he did that so they will start doing so?
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Jedi_Mindset
03-26-2013, 05:48 PM
Qu'ran is not difficult to understand, true but thats for the people who understand its language - the Arabic. From arabic to english translation is a big difference even though both are languages they are entirely different. For example peace in english has one meaning and thats just peace. Arabic has different meanings for the words peace. Qarn means horn, but it can also be meant as an time period.

Arabic language is more complex and is harder to learn than any 'straightforward' languages like english.

Also qu'ran verses were revealed in different situations, that doesnt mean those verses should apply to every situation.

Look at this:

“O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.” (5:51)

This verse gets highly misunderstood sometimes and some muslims think that we shouldnt be friends with them, while at the same time later on the qu'ran starts to talk about the people of the book and Allah respects them.

Tafseer:

The Command to have Enmity towards the Disbelievers and to abandon supporting Them


Allah's statement,
﴿يأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ عَدُوِّى وَعَدُوَّكُمْ أَوْلِيَآءَ تُلْقُونَ إِلَيْهِمْ بِالْمَوَدَّةِ وَقَدْ كَفَرُواْ بِمَا جَآءَكُمْ مِّنَ الْحَقِّ﴾
(O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies as protecting friends showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the truth,) refers to the idolators and the disbelievers who are combatants against Allah, His Messenger and the believers. It is they whom Allah has decided should be our enemies and should be fought. Allah has forbidden the believers to take them as friends, supporters or companions. Allah the Exalted said in another Ayah ,
﴿يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْيَهُودَ وَالنَّصَـرَى أَوْلِيَآءَ بَعْضُهُمْ أَوْلِيَآءُ بَعْضٍ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُمْ مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ﴾
(O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as protecting friends, they are but protecting friends of each other. And if any among you takes them (as such), then surely, he is one of them.) (5:51) This Ayah contains a stern warning and a sure threat. Allah the Exalted said,
﴿يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الَّذِينَ اتَّخَذُواْ دِينَكُمْ هُزُواً وَلَعِباً مِّنَ الَّذِينَ أُوتُواْ الْكِتَـبَ مِن قَبْلِكُمْ وَالْكُفَّارَ أَوْلِيَآءَ وَاتَّقُواْ اللَّهَ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ ﴾
(O you who believe! Take not as protecting friends those who take your religion as a mockery and fun from among those who received the Scripture before you, nor from among the disbelievers; and have Taqwa of Allah if you indeed are true believers.) (5:57)
﴿يَـأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ لاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ الْكَـفِرِينَ أَوْلِيَآءَ مِن دُونِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ أَتُرِيدُونَ أَن تَجْعَلُواْ للَّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ سُلْطَاناً مُّبِيناً ﴾
(O you who believe! Take not for protecting friends disbelievers instead of believers. Do you wish to offer Allah a manifest proof against yourselves) (4:144) and,
﴿لاَّ يَتَّخِذِ الْمُؤْمِنُونَ الْكَـفِرِينَ أَوْلِيَآءَ مِن دُونِ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ وَمَن يَفْعَلْ ذَلِكَ فَلَيْسَ مِنَ اللَّهِ فِي شَىْءٍ إِلاَ أَن تَتَّقُواْ مِنْهُمْ تُقَـةً وَيُحَذِّرْكُمُ اللَّهُ نَفْسَهُ﴾
(Let not the believers take the disbelievers as protecting friends instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His punishment).) (3:28) This is why Allah's Messenger accepted Hatib's excuse when he said that he only wanted to have a favor on the Quraysh, because of the property and family members he left behind in Makkah. Allah's statement,
﴿يُخْرِجُونَ الرَّسُولَ وَإِيَّـكُمْ﴾
(and have driven out the Messenger and yourselves ( from your homeland)) follows His encouragement to fight against them and to avoid being their supporters. This is because they expelled the Messenger and his Companions on account of their hatred for Tawhid and worshipping Allah alone in sincerity. This is why Allah the Exalted said,
﴿أَن تُؤْمِنُواْ بِاللَّهِ رَبِّكُمْ﴾
(because you believe in Allah, your Lord!) meaning, `your only fault is that you believed in Allah, Lord of all that exists.' Allah the Exalted said in other Ayat,
﴿وَمَا نَقَمُواْ مِنْهُمْ إِلاَّ أَن يُؤْمِنُواْ بِاللَّهِ الْعَزِيزِ الْحَمِيدِ ﴾
(And they had no fault except that they believed in Allah, Almighty, Al-Hamid!) (85:8) and,
﴿الَّذِينَ أُخْرِجُواْ مِن دِيَـرِهِم بِغَيْرِ حَقٍّ إِلاَّ أَن يَقُولُواْ رَبُّنَا اللَّهُ﴾
(Those who have been expelled from their homes unjustly only because they said: "Our Lord is Allah.'') (22:40) Allah said,
﴿إِن كُنتُمْ خَرَجْتُمْ جِهَاداً فِى سَبِيلِى وَابْتِغَآءَ مَرْضَاتِى﴾
(If you have come forth to strive in My cause and to seek My good pleasure.) Allah says, `if you are as described here, then do not take the disbelievers as supporters. If you migrated in Jihad for My cause and for seeking My pleasure, then do not take My enemies and your enemies as protecting friends, after they expelled you from your homes and property in rage against you and rejection of your religion.' Allah's statement,
﴿تُسِرُّونَ إِلَيْهِمْ بِالْمَوَدَّةِ وَأَنَاْ أَعْلَمُ بِمَآ أَخْفَيْتُمْ وَمَآ أَعْلَنتُمْ﴾
(You show friendship to them in secret, while I am All-Aware of what you conceal and what you reveal.) Allah asks, `do you do this while I know the secrets of the hearts, the intentions and all apparent things,'
﴿وَمَن يَفْعَلْهُ مِنكُمْ فَقَدْ ضَلَّ سَوَآءَ السَّبِيلِإِن يَثْقَفُوكُمْ يَكُونُواْ لَكُمْ أَعْدَآءً وَيَبْسُطُواْ إِلَيْكُمْ أَيْدِيَهُمْ وَأَلْسِنَتَهُمْ بِالسُّوءِ﴾
(And whosoever of you does that, then indeed he has gone astray from the straight path. Should they gain the upper hand over you, they would behave to you as enemies, and stretch forth their hands and their tongues against you with evil,) meaning, `if they gain the upper hand over you, they would use every type of harm in their disposal to hurt you in words and action,'
﴿وَوَدُّواْ لَوْ تَكْفُرُونَ﴾
(and they desire that you should disbelieve.) meaning, `they are eager that you do not earn any good. Therefore, their enmity to you is outward and inward, so how can you become supporters of this type of people' This also encourages the enmity. Allah's statement,
﴿لَن تَنفَعَكُمْ أَرْحَـمُكُمْ وَلاَ أَوْلَـدُكُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ يَفْصِلُ بَيْنَكُمْ وَاللَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ ﴾
(Neither your relatives nor your children will benefit you on the Day of Resurrection. He will judge between you. And Allah is the All-Seer of what you do.) means, `your family relations will not benefit you with Allah if Allah decided to cause harm your way. Your relations will not benefit you if you please them with what angers Allah.' Those who agree with their family being disbelievers in order to please them will have earned loss and failure and their deeds will be rendered invalid. Their relation will not benefit them with Allah, even if their relation was with a Prophet. Imam Ahmad recorded that Anas said that a man said, "O Allah's Messenger! Where is my father'' He said,
«فِي النَّار»
(In the Fire.) When the man went away, the Prophet called him back and said:
«إِنَّ أَبِي وَأَبَاكَ فِي النَّار»
(Verily, my father and your father are in the Fire.) Muslim and Abu Dawud also collected this Hadith.
﴿قَدْ كَانَتْ لَكُمْ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ فِى إِبْرَهِيمَ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ إِذْ قَالُواْ لِقَوْمِهِمْ إِنَّا بُرَءآؤاْ مِّنْكُمْ وَمِمَّا تَعْبُدُونَ مِن دُونِ اللَّهِ كَفَرْنَا بِكُمْ وَبَدَا بَيْنَنَا وَبَيْنَكُمُ الْعَدَاوَةُ وَالْبَغْضَآءُ أَبَداً حَتَّى تُؤْمِنُواْ بِاللَّهِ وَحْدَهُ إِلاَّ قَوْلَ إِبْرَهِيمَ لاًّبِيهِ لاّسْتَغْفِرَنَّ لَكَ وَمَآ أَمْلِكُ لَكَ مِنَ اللَّهِ مِن شَىْءٍ رَّبَّنَا عَلَيْكَ تَوَكَّلْنَا وَإِلَيْكَ أَنَبْنَا وَإِلَيْكَ الْمَصِيرُ - رَبَّنَا لاَ تَجْعَلْنَا فِتْنَةً لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَاغْفِرْ لَنَا رَبَّنَآ إِنَّكَ أَنتَ الْعَزِيزُ الْحَكِيمُ - لَقَدْ كَانَ لَكُمْ فِيهِمْ أُسْوَةٌ حَسَنَةٌ لِّمَن كَانَ يَرْجُو اللَّهَ وَالْيَوْمَ الاٌّخِرَ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّ فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ هُوَ الْغَنِىُّ الْحَمِيدُ ﴾
(4. Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibrahim and those with him, when they said to their people: "Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allah, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred forever until you believe in Allah alone,'' -- except the saying of Ibrahim to his father: "Verily, I will ask forgiveness for you, but I have no power to do anything for you before Allah.'' "Our Lord! In You we put our trust, and to You we turn in repentance, and to You is the final Return.'') (5. "Our Lord! Make us not a trial for the disbelievers, and forgive us, Our Lord! Verily, You, only You, are the Almighty, the All-Wise.'') (6. Certainly, there has been in them an excellent example for you to follow - for those who look forward to (the meeting with) Allah and the Last Day. And whosoever turns away, then verily, Allah is Al-Ghani, Al-Hamid.)

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...539&Itemid=116
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glo
03-26-2013, 06:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
Hello dear

It's really nice when non Muslims use the Arabic expressions such as Inshaa Allah etc.. :statisfie
I love how Muslims still call on the name of God in everyday conversation. It's a habit which Christians have largely lost ...
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Scimitar
03-26-2013, 07:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Loren
Your peace and love kind of attitude is commendable but the believers are to keep the non-believers at an arms distance, this is because the non-beleivers will lead the believers astray.
Sorry bro Abu Loren, but i disagree with this totally.

History testifies to a time when Jews, Christians and Muslims lived in close proximity to eachother, so close that the mothers of Arab children, would give their kids to Jewish mothers for suckling and vice versa... not just that, but the keys to the Church were held by a Muslim, the keys to the masjid were held by a Jew and the keys to the synagogue were held by a Christian... and it all worked. The people of Jerusalem, got on well - 3 Abrahamic faiths, united as one people in a land they all considered holy, they fought as one, bled as one and died as one... martyrs.

Jerusalem pre-crusader era. What we know as the golden age of Islam...

...I believe that bro Eric H posts in the spirit of that time, and I admire him for that, for I too aspire to see such an age appear once more.

For let it be known, that diversity is the spice of life, but in death we will know how merciful Allah really is, and that is gonna be something beyond any imaginable comparison.

Scimi
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tearose
03-26-2013, 10:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
History testifies to a time when Jews, Christians and Muslims lived in close proximity to eachother, so close that the mothers of Arab children, would give their kids to Jewish mothers for suckling and vice versa... not just that, but the keys to the Church were held by a Muslim, the keys to the masjid were held by a Jew and the keys to the synagogue were held by a Christian... and it all worked.
There is a problem with this, though, which is that people can tend to get too comfortable with each other and forget about giving dawah . Yes, sometimes you have to co-operate , and that can be a means of showing what Islam is about, but if that takes over and people become used to each others' differences, they won't worry about spreading the message and calling to Islam. I hardly ever see Christians trying to promote Christianity, and partly that seems to be because they have become comfortable with people who are different from them. so now they promote interfaith tolerance.

We need to be careful that the same thing doesn't happen to some of us Muslims, and I think that is a different issue from praying in churches/chapels etc. out of necessity. A lot of these interfaith initiatives are very dangerous just because by their nature it is all about tolerance, 'equality', rapprochement etc. and everything tends to get watered down.

I'm not sure I'm really explaining myself. I'm thinking of the point made by al-azami in 'The History of the Qur'anic Text' (p.10):

'As described by Cook:
“In a modern Western society it is more or less axiomatic that other people's religious beliefs(though not, of course, all forms of religiously motivated behaviour) are to be tolerated, and perhaps even respected. Indeed it would be considered ill-mannered and parochial to refer to the religious views of others as false and one's own as true ... the very notion of absolute truth in matters of religion sounds hopelessly out of date. It is, however, a notion that was central to traditional Islam, as it was to traditional Christianity; and in recent centuries it has survived better in Islam"
Cook writes this under the heading "Tolerating the beliefs of others", but what he expounds instead is universalism. Imbued with tolerance, Islam maintains clear and firm injunctions governing the rights of non-Muslims; this is well known. Cook's thrust here is instead about doubt and relativism: the notion that all religions are equally valid because to think otherwise is to betray oneself as provincial and ignorant. This, sadly, is an easier pitfall for many contemporary, ill-educated Muslims.'




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Scimitar
03-27-2013, 10:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tearose
There is a problem with this, though, which is that people can tend to get too comfortable with each other and forget about giving dawah . Yes, sometimes you have to co-operate , and that can be a means of showing what Islam is about, but if that takes over and people become used to each others' differences, they won't worry about spreading the message and calling to Islam. I hardly ever see Christians trying to promote Christianity, and partly that seems to be because they have become comfortable with people who are different from them. so now they promote interfaith tolerance.

We need to be careful that the same thing doesn't happen to some of us Muslims, and I think that is a different issue from praying in churches/chapels etc. out of necessity. A lot of these interfaith initiatives are very dangerous just because by their nature it is all about tolerance, 'equality', rapprochement etc. and everything tends to get watered down.

I'm not sure I'm really explaining myself. I'm thinking of the point made by al-azami in 'The History of the Qur'anic Text' (p.10):

'As described by Cook:
“In a modern Western society it is more or less axiomatic that other people's religious beliefs(though not, of course, all forms of religiously motivated behaviour) are to be tolerated, and perhaps even respected. Indeed it would be considered ill-mannered and parochial to refer to the religious views of others as false and one's own as true ... the very notion of absolute truth in matters of religion sounds hopelessly out of date. It is, however, a notion that was central to traditional Islam, as it was to traditional Christianity; and in recent centuries it has survived better in Islam"
Cook writes this under the heading "Tolerating the beliefs of others", but what he expounds instead is universalism. Imbued with tolerance, Islam maintains clear and firm injunctions governing the rights of non-Muslims; this is well known. Cook's thrust here is instead about doubt and relativism: the notion that all religions are equally valid because to think otherwise is to betray oneself as provincial and ignorant. This, sadly, is an easier pitfall for many contemporary, ill-educated Muslims.'
Assalaam alaikum sister tearose,

Dawah cannot be given in an environment where religious tolerance is not accepted :) Not in modern day. Hence, we take steps, lead by example, and other may follow.

Scimi
Reply

ardianto
03-29-2013, 11:54 AM


Salah Eid-ul Fitr 2012 in Malang, Indonesia.
Reply

tearose
03-29-2013, 03:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Assalaam alaikum sister tearose,
Dawah cannot be given in an environment where religious tolerance is not accepted Not in modern day. Hence, we take steps, lead by example, and other may follow.
wa 3laikum as-salam,
I was quite tired when I wrote that post and I don't think I expressed myself very well. Of course we must be tolerant and kind towards those who are not hostile to us, maintain good relations with them, and lead by example. However, many interfaith initiatives and many personal relationships between people of different religions goes beyond that, to a kind of cosiness, praising each other and trying to please each other. These situations are full of traps.

For example, a family member of mine is a practising Catholic. Recently we were talking about religion, and he spent most of the time praising Islam, praising Muslims, saying how interesting the religion is. Then he made one comment about how interest in studying Catholicism is declining, said 'It's a shame, because Catholicism is a beautiful religion' and looked to me for approval. If I approve, I fall into the trap. If I disapprove, everyone will look at me as the bad person, because he said so many nice things about his religion and I can't even say one nice thing about his. If I stay silent, what's the point of having the discussion.

Then there are people who tell you to have a nice Eid, hope Ramadan is going well for you etc., then they get hurt when you don't wish them a Happy Christmas.

If you never debate with them, or talk to them seriously about the message of Islam, how can leading by example be effective? If you are constantly interacting with them in a way that reassures them that you accept them and their ways(whether you mean to do so or not), all they might learn from your example is that you are a nice person and that your faith is an important part of that. It doesn't necessarily motivate them to take it seriously.

I learned this the hard way, when after months of thinking I was 'leading by example' my mum told me that she didn't realise Muslims thought Islam was for everyone, that other ways of life could be true for other people. This made me realise that unless you insist on the fact that Islam is the only true way, people can easily miss the message. It also becomes very easy to confuse showing others you are a good person with striving to please them.

Please note this doesn't mean being disrespectful to others or talking to them in a harsh way, but just don't fall into these traps and never stop calling to the truth in a way that makes clear what is at stake.
Reply

Ali_008
03-30-2013, 04:25 AM
^^^ I completely know where you're coming from, sister. I experience a lot similar things very regularly as well. I have also thought a lot about what I can do about it without getting into sin, and without hurting others' feelings. I've come to the conclusion that it is best that we just do what our leader, our beloved Rasoolullah :saws: did. Our job is to only deliver the message. You might be dead serious when communicating it to someone, but it doesn't guarantee that the listener is also grasping the gravity of it. You can try various methods, and make sure that you're presenting the right picture of Islam by your actions and behavior. Without a practical illustration, all the theories in the world are of no use. Thus, preaching what you practice is exponentially important. Many revert brothers/sisters were able to influence and bring their families to guidance only by means of strictly practicing Islam.

That was the method of Rasoolullah :saws:, and it worked, and in shaa Allah it will work now as well. It can get tough to be patient during taxing times, but the reward at the end of it is definitely worth it.

Addressing the particular situation you found yourself in, if you ever land in such waters again, you can try injecting the similarities between Islam and Christianity into the conversation. Talk about how Christians and Muslims are working together about the handful of causes where they are, indeed, working together. Abu Ameenah Bilal Phillips was asked about the issue of not being able to wish Christians merry Christmas, to what he replied that instead of saying merry Christmas one can just say happy holidays.

Also, we need to keep in mind that we can't use the same method for every person. The approach has to vary from person to person. Watch the following video from 10:10 to 11:00.

Reply

tearose
03-31-2013, 07:51 AM
:sl:

Thanks for your reply brother. I agree that we must practise what we preach, and use different methods of dawah that are appropriate to each individual. But we must remember that Rasulullah :saws: also directly called people to Islam, as well being the example for them.

I agree that it can be useful to highlight the similarities between Islam and the other monotheistic religions, especially for a person who doesn't know much about Islam or has misconceptions, but at some point we have to point out that Islam is the only true way. Otherwise, people can easily get the impression that if the religions are so similar, why should they need to give theirs up and enter Islam?

About the 'happy holidays' thing, I have to disagree. Ever since I looked into this issue, I have followed the opinion of those scholars who say it is impermissible to give any kind of special greeting on the occasion of non-Muslims' festivals. I don't see any different in effect on the person you say it to; they know you are referring to your festival and that is why you are saying it. So the special greeting, even if doesn't explicitly include the word 'Christmas', can still easily give them the impression that you approve of what they are doing.

I used to worry sometimes about the reactions I would get if I didn't return someone's greeting, or if I didn't shake hands with a man, for example. However, I have actually found that in general people show more respect to me if I stick to my religion firmly. People's feelings should not be hurt just because you are different from them.
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