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tearose
03-24-2013, 09:12 PM
As-salamu 3laikum,

A while ago some non-Muslims were talking about the niqab ban in France, and said that Muslim scholars in France said that it was not really required in Islam (or something to that effect). They asked me if that was true, but at the time I didn't know enough about the rulings on niqab to give them the correct answer. Anyway, I have been looking into it and all the fatawa I have come across either say it is obligatory, or that there is a difference of opinion with some saying it is obligatory, and others saying it is mustahabb.

I also looked up what seemed like dozens of threads here all coming to similar conclusions and mentioning similar scholarly views. I found a fatwa that seemed to give a good summary of the position, and was about to send it off to the people who had asked me, when I remembered what they had said about French scholars. Curious, I looked it up, and I found that Dalil Boubakeur, the mufti of the largest mosque in Paris, said that the niqab was not mandated in the Qur'an, and that it didn't appear until many years after the Prophet :saws: Other Muslim leaders in France expressed similar ideas, and several Egyptian scholars in high-ranking positions said that the niqab was neither mandatory nor recommended.

So now I'm confused. I never heard this point of view before. Is this a mainstream opinion? Have any of you heard scholars that you know and respect making these kind of comments? If so, how do they explain the various ahadith mentioning niqab?
If not, how do we account for the fact that scholars in positions of responsibility are taking this point of view?

Please respond as I really want to give these people a good answer in sha Allah and need to know if the original explanation was correct i.e. the difference is only over wajib/ mustahab

jazakum Allahu khair
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Scimitar
03-24-2013, 11:54 PM
Sister, when in doubt, it is always good to err on the side of caution. In this case, that would be the belief that the hijaab is obligatory.

From my understanding, the niqaab is a veil that covers the face and hair and only leaves the eyes unveiled; the Hijaab is similar but, does not cover the face, it only covers the hair, which is the requirement from Quran (as well as women covering their other body parts, like torso, arms legs etc).

For the record - is it hjaabs that are banned in France? or Niqaab? or both?

From my understanding, the Quran does not forbid women from exposing the face. SO the need for a niqaab may not be justified.

Scimi
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islamica
03-25-2013, 02:01 AM
Dalil Boubakeur, the mufti of the largest mosque in Paris, said that the niqab was not mandated in the Qur'an, and that it didn't appear until many years after the Prophet :saws: Other Muslim leaders in France expressed similar ideas, .
the france "muftis" are all trying to blend in and be accepted by the kuffars who are open enemies of Allah by waging war against His deen. The fact they think it appeared many years after the Prophet (S) just shows how ignorant they are of Islamic history and sunnah and thus disqualified of all credibility they had. When the verses of hijab came down, the women cloaked themselves with curtains and appeared like crows with only eyes showing and this implementation was approved by the Prophet (s) himself. You read all about it here inshallah: http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html


and several Egyptian scholars in high-ranking positions said that the niqab was neither mandatory nor recommended
High ranking positions don't mean squat these days. We had the grand mufti of Egypt supporting ban on niqaab at universities. These are all modernists. According the the link above, the proof is clear. If the Prophet (s)'s way of living and example is Sunnah for us then so is what his wives did in regard to Islam. Aisha r.a. alone narrated over 2000 hadiths and was a scholar and teacher of many scholars that followed. Based on the authentic resources and evidence, the conservative scholars will say it is obligatory and the moderate or bit relaxed scholars say it is mustaab (recommended), no real scholar will claim the stated above.
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Abu Loren
03-25-2013, 03:01 AM
Forget about the non-believers but why would Muslims want to deny the sister their choice to wear a niqab? Most do it for the right reasons and it is admirable that they want to only show their beauty to their husbands/mehrams. For sisters residing in the West, it is a very brave decision for most of them.
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tearose
03-25-2013, 09:02 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Sister, when in doubt, it is always good to err on the side of caution. In this case, that would be the belief that the hijaab is obligatory.
From my understanding, the niqaab is a veil that covers the face and hair and only leaves the eyes unveiled; the Hijaab is similar but, does not cover the face, it only covers the hair, which is the requirement from Quran (as well as women covering their other body parts, like torso, arms legs etc).
For the record - is it hjaabs that are banned in France? or Niqaab? or both?
From my understanding, the Quran does not forbid women from exposing the face. SO the need for a niqaab may not be justified.
Scimi
Thanks for your reply brother, in France the niqab is banned in public places and the hijab is banned in schools. I agree with you that it is generally best to err on the side of caution, but I was just wondering if I would have to mention these moderate opinions in order to give a comprehensive and accurate answer to those people.
By the way, there is a difference of opinion among scholars about whether the verses in the Qur'an about covering also include the face.
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tearose
03-25-2013, 09:06 AM
Originally Posted by islamica
the france "muftis" are all trying to blend in and be accepted by the kuffars who are open enemies of Allah by waging war against His deen. The fact they think it appeared many years after the Prophet (S) just shows how ignorant they are of Islamic history and sunnah and thus disqualified of all credibility they had. When the verses of hijab came down, the women cloaked themselves with curtains and appeared like crows with only eyes showing and this implementation was approved by the Prophet (s) himself. You read all about it here inshallah: http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html




High ranking positions don't mean squat these days. We had the grand mufti of Egypt supporting ban on niqaab at universities. These are all modernists. According the the link above, the proof is clear. If the Prophet (s)'s way of living and example is Sunnah for us then so is what his wives did in regard to Islam. Aisha r.a. alone narrated over 2000 hadiths and was a scholar and teacher of many scholars that followed. Based on the authentic resources and evidence, the conservative scholars will say it is obligatory and the moderate or bit relaxed scholars say it is mustaab (recommended), no real scholar will claim the stated above.
Thanks for your reply sister, honestly what you are saying is more or less what I was thinking. I am just surprised that such people can get into such positions of authority, I really don't understand this 'modernist' thing.

So does everyone think I should just mention to them about the traditional scholarly view, or should I say a cautionary point about these 'modernist' views as well?
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islamica
03-26-2013, 03:19 AM
Originally Posted by tearose
Thanks for your reply sister, honestly what you are saying is more or less what I was thinking. I am just surprised that such people can get into such positions of authority, I really don't understand this 'modernist' thing.

So does everyone think I should just mention to them about the traditional scholarly view, or should I say a cautionary point about these 'modernist' views as well?
I wouldn't mention these 'modernists' views because 1. you will be diluting the real Islam and 2. it would be a lie, Niqab was approved and and implemented in the presence of the Prophet (S).

I would tell them that all scholars hold consensuses opinion that hijab is obligatory. In regards to niqaab, there is a difference of opinion among the scholars. Some say that it is obligatory because the wives of the Prophet (s) and the early Muslimahs did it and we hold them as examples to follow. In fact, it was worn in all of Muslim world up to the time colonial powers invaded Muslims and forced the Muslim women to abandon it. Some scholars say although it is not obligatory, it is recommended and a pious act. How much one covers is up to each individual based on their level of faith and commitment to their Lord. Those so called scholars that say it is not part of Islam or appeared years after the Prophet(s), like Dalil Boubakeur, the mufti of the largest mosque in Paris, say so because they are the apologetic type who are are trying show they can fit into this society by compromising or downplaying their religion. Islam is clear on what is and what isn't, how much or how strictly one adheres to it is an individual decision.
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tearose
03-26-2013, 07:29 AM
Originally Posted by islamica
I wouldn't mention these 'modernists' views because 1. you will be diluting the real Islam and 2. it would be a lie, Niqab was approved and and implemented in the presence of the Prophet (S).
Sis, I probably wasn't clear with what I said, I meant should I explain to them why these views are wrong, or just not mention them at all? The modernists are the only ones these people have been exposed to so they think that is the correct Islamic view.
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islamica
03-27-2013, 01:28 AM
Originally Posted by tearose
Sis, I probably wasn't clear with what I said, I meant should I explain to them why these views are wrong, or just not mention them at all? The modernists are the only ones these people have been exposed to so they think that is the correct Islamic view.
oh that would depend on how versed they are about Islam. If they know a bit about it then could go into a detail discussion but if they don't know much about or just strangers in the passing who had a quick question, i wouldn't go too much into details. either focus on the positive aspect of it or just highlight that there is difference of opinion among scholars ranging from it being obligatory to optional and it depends on the conviction of each individual.
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tearose
03-27-2013, 07:43 AM
They don't know much about Islam, but they know a lot about the niqab ban in France, and have discussed it in detail a lot. So they have seen videos/heard opinions from these 'modernist' scholars, and they think that is the correct ruling. So that's why I feel maybe I should mention something from a scholar refuting the idea that the niqab is not part of Islam.
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islamica
03-29-2013, 01:03 AM
Originally Posted by tearose
They don't know much about Islam, but they know a lot about the niqab ban in France, and have discussed it in detail a lot. So they have seen videos/heard opinions from these 'modernist' scholars, and they think that is the correct ruling. So that's why I feel maybe I should mention something from a scholar refuting the idea that the niqab is not part of Islam.
You could do that. You could also highlight the fact the media promotes and puts to the front what they deem most beneficial to their interest. How many muslim charities and good muslims make the news vs how much muslim "terrorism" is sold on the media? by the same token they will promote those who will sing their tune to conform to their society, regardless of them being right or wrong. I think the idea you should really try across and settle in their mind is that there is no one answer on this, and the choice is that of an individual, with these modernist scholars being only one end of the full spectrum.
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faithandpeace
04-02-2013, 05:37 AM
I live in the U.S. and happened to notice a sister walking down the street today wearing niqab which was a very rare sight! I think this is a very brave act here in the Western world. It disturbs me greatly how France and other places have banned niqab and how there is so much anti-Islam sentiment among much of the Western world. I am certainly no expert on niqab but I believe strongly in the right to privacy, modesty, and dignity, and support any sister who chooses to wear niqab. SubhanaAllah for her bravery, courage, and conviction! Insha'Allah may she only become stronger in her imaan and remain safe and in good health.
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SFatima
04-02-2013, 08:20 AM
sister faithnpeace, you have listed your religion as judaism, is that so? :)
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faithandpeace
04-02-2013, 02:33 PM
I recently reverted to Islam and haven't yet figured out how to update my profile. :)
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Muhammad
04-02-2013, 03:43 PM
Assalaamu Alaykum sister,

I have changed it for you.
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tearose
04-07-2013, 08:00 PM
:salam: Does anyone know of any articles by scholars giving an overview of this issue that I could quote from? I am trying to put together an answer to send to these people and I keep hitting a brick wall every time because it is so complicated with the differences of opinion, I don't know how to summarize it. There is that fatwa I found giving an overview of the difference of opinion, but I feel that I need something more than that because there are so many videos out there of people saying it is not part of Islam or downplaying the significance. I found an extract of a text by Sheikh al-Albaani which had a section refuting those who say it is not part of Islam, but you have to buy the full text if you want to cut and paste from it. So I don't know if it would be wrong to type it out myself even though I can see that part? Please help if you can, brothers and sisters, this issue gets discussed by these people regularly, I feel that I will be failing in my duty if I don't give them a thorough explanation. Jazakum Allahu khair
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Muhammad
04-07-2013, 09:32 PM
:wasalamex

Here is a video which focuses on the aspect that Niqab is a part of Islam:
http://www.islamicboard.com/islamic-...ad-niqaab.html

The following article written in a sarcastic tone does the same, which was written in response to a specific incident:
http://muslimmatters.org/2009/10/07/...rs-like-these/

Other articles which may be useful:
Discussing the 'Symbol of Subjugation'
The Niqab: A Barrier to Integration?
Pride & Prejudice – France’s Ban on Niqaab
Threatening the Stability of an ‘Enlightened’ Europe - The Anti Niqab Law
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Karl
04-08-2013, 12:06 AM
Pious females have always covered up in most religions. You are free to wear whatever you like that covers you and does not portray you as a sex object in the general public. A burqa would be the most pious attire and it also protects your body and face from the ravages of the sun and wind. I have seen women wear makeup a hijab and tight jeans, which is totally inappropriate, they may as well not bother to cover their hair when they dress like a tart. Generally a female that covers up is given respect, one that does not is considered fast and loose the way the anti religious like them.
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faithandpeace
04-08-2013, 07:21 AM
I find it unfortunate how here in the U.S. a woman wearing a hijab and niqab is deemed worthy of immense criticism with insinuations such as that her husband or male relatives must have forced her to wear it when the reality is that more likely than not she is doing it by her own choice, may not even be married, or may even be wearing it against the wishes of her husband or relatives. Yet a woman walking down the street half dressed with skin showing everywhere legally allowed, covered with offensive tattoos, etc. is somehow considered acceptable. Drunk and noisy in public is considered normal whereas modesty in dress and behavior is not. I am glad to have found a better value system (Islam). :) Sorry if I'm getting off topic here. Jazakallah khair to those who are providing scholarly resources on this subject.

BTW, Jazakallah khair to brother Muhammad for fixing my profile.
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~Zaria~
04-08-2013, 11:14 AM
Originally Posted by tearose
:salam: Does anyone know of any articles by scholars giving an overview of this issue that I could quote from? I am trying to put together an answer to send to these people and I keep hitting a brick wall every time because it is so complicated with the differences of opinion, I don't know how to summarize it. There is that fatwa I found giving an overview of the difference of opinion, but I feel that I need something more than that because there are so many videos out there of people saying it is not part of Islam or downplaying the significance. I found an extract of a text by Sheikh al-Albaani which had a section refuting those who say it is not part of Islam, but you have to buy the full text if you want to cut and paste from it. So I don't know if it would be wrong to type it out myself even though I can see that part? Please help if you can, brothers and sisters, this issue gets discussed by these people regularly, I feel that I will be failing in my duty if I don't give them a thorough explanation. Jazakum Allahu khair
:wasalam: sister,


I have also found the article by brother Hamza to be well-referenced and provides the positions of all schools of thought in a concise manner:

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...art-islam.html


Personally, i think it may be good to just send them an article from a reliable source, vs trying to put an answer together by yourself.
As we are not scholars in this field, we are not obliged to do so (in fact, many may say, that it is actually better, NOT to do provide such answers by ourselves).


May Allah (subhanawataƔla) reward you for your good intentions.
Ameen


:wasalam:
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Banu_Hashim
04-08-2013, 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by tearose
:salam: Does anyone know of any articles by scholars giving an overview of this issue that I could quote from? I am trying to put together an answer to send to these people and I keep hitting a brick wall every time because it is so complicated with the differences of opinion, I don't know how to summarize it. There is that fatwa I found giving an overview of the difference of opinion, but I feel that I need something more than that because there are so many videos out there of people saying it is not part of Islam or downplaying the significance. I found an extract of a text by Sheikh al-Albaani which had a section refuting those who say it is not part of Islam, but you have to buy the full text if you want to cut and paste from it. So I don't know if it would be wrong to type it out myself even though I can see that part? Please help if you can, brothers and sisters, this issue gets discussed by these people regularly, I feel that I will be failing in my duty if I don't give them a thorough explanation. Jazakum Allahu khair
The scholars of our ummah may Allah reward them immensely spent countless years, following the death of the Prophet (saws) to compile the authentic narrations and derive usool al-fiqh (principles of jurisprudence) from a7adith and the Qur'an. As I understand it, there is a split down the middle as to whether niqab is fardh/wajib (An act btw, if left, preludes to sin!), and it comes down to classical interpretations of texts, as well as incidents narrated in a7ahith, interpreted using usool al-fiqh.

I have not studied the issue at a basic level, let alone at a scholarly one and therefore am in no way qualified to even suggest whether it is fardh or musta7abb or otherwise and I doubt there is anyone on this forum who is.

However, below is a discussion with opposing views. I think it's a balanced discussion.



I think at the end of the day, we need to accept that varying opinions do exist and each have their own merits! Insha Allah there is no need to get heated up about this issue. Sincerity is the key brothers and sisters!
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tearose
04-08-2013, 05:56 PM
Jazakum Allahu khair for the links to articles, in sha Allah they will be useful for this purpose.
Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
Personally, i think it may be good to just send them an article from a reliable source, vs trying to put an answer together by yourself.
As we are not scholars in this field, we are not obliged to do so (in fact, many may say, that it is actually better, NOT to do provide such answers by ourselves).
I agree with you completely sister. I would rather not even attempt such a thing. As I have been unable to find any one article exactly summarizing or giving an overview of this issue, I did find that one fatwa explaining that there is a valid difference of opinion, but most other fataawa and articles tend to argue for their position on fard or mustahabb, understandably. I don't really want to go into that issue, I just want to show that niqaab is part of Islam. However, that fatwa doesn't include much in the way of daleel, so I don't know how helpful it will be to someone who has heard a lot of misinformation. Now that, alhamdulilah, you have all responded with some more articles, perhaps I could send them the fatwa along with the links to give them the overview and some more information on different aspects.
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facethetruth
09-03-2013, 05:35 PM
Sister, you have to know that these "scholars" who live in the west under a lot of pressure. Intelegence visit them all the time, when I used to live in the U.S. Alhamdolilah I lift, FBI used to visit our 2 bedroom mosque every week!!! They have to say what ever to please them. The Jilbab in the quran is what we call it "Niqab" these days and the wives of the prophets were ordered to wear them. Now the whole Wajib or Mostahab it is debated and to go through the evidences will take too long but if you really want to I would do it another time. But read the expliantion tafseer of Surat alnur for the verse of Jilbab and also in Surat alhzab
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