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KenPruitt
04-08-2013, 03:30 AM
How do I better communicate with Muslims? Most of them hate my guts after hearing a few words from me.
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Muslim Woman
04-08-2013, 03:39 AM
Salaam/ Peace

don't insult thier religion . Try to show respect when u commuincate with people of any faith .
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KenPruitt
04-08-2013, 03:49 AM
I don't insult anyone's religion, and I do try to be respectful. That doesn't help me in the least.
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Muslim Woman
04-08-2013, 03:58 AM
Salaam/ Peace


then what complian they do against u ?
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Alpha Dude
04-08-2013, 06:44 AM
Originally Posted by KenPruitt
How do I better communicate with Muslims? Most of them hate my guts after hearing a few words from me.
You need to give more information. What you said is not enough for anyone to give practical and relevant advice.

In what context are you talking to these Muslims? Is it in school? At work?

What makes you think they hate your guts? What few words do you talk to them about? Is it the same Muslims or you feel all Muslims hate you?
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KenPruitt
04-08-2013, 03:44 PM
Muslims hate me for my interpretation of the Qur'an, which is radically different from the norm and it challenges the moral ground that many Muslims stand on. Every single Muslim, without fail, has been offended by it thus far even though it's not insulting.
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YusufNoor
04-08-2013, 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by KenPruitt
Muslims hate me for my interpretation of the Qur'an, which is radically different from the norm and it challenges the moral ground that many Muslims stand on. Every single Muslim, without fail, has been offended by it thus far even though it's not insulting.
you're not entitled to interpret the Qur'an. you probably don't even know Arabic, so you've never even read it. you might have read someone's interpretation of the Qur'an, but English is a poor vehicle for interpreting Quranic Arabic.

thus, all you have probably done done is to dish out opinions, based on an interpretation, based totally on ignorance.

yup, i could see how that could tick someone off!

so, you may want to learn more about the Qur'an, Arabic or Islam BEFORE you start to form opinions about them. and really before you start jawing off about said opinions, based on ignorance.

oh, and what is it in your education, that in your opinion, makes you a great moralist?

peace
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IslamicRevival
04-08-2013, 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by KenPruitt
Muslims hate me for my interpretation of the Qur'an, which is radically different from the norm and it challenges the moral ground that many Muslims stand on. Every single Muslim, without fail, has been offended by it thus far even though it's not insulting.
If your interpretation of the Quran is 'radically different from the norm' you are interpreting the words of God / Allah incorrectly and that in itself can be construed as an insult. I'd advise you to take knowledge from Scholars who are able to interpret the Quran the way our beloved Prophet (Peace be upon him) taught mankind because you cannot possibly do it yourself, especially if you have next to no understanding of Hadith and the Arabic language. Peace out
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KenPruitt
04-08-2013, 09:56 PM
I haven't even explained my interpretation, and I've already offended quite a few people.

"you're not entitled to interpret the Qur'an. you probably don't even know Arabic, so you've never even read it."

The idea that you the Qur'an can't be read in any other language than Arabic makes absolutely no sense. If that were so, the Qur'an would've said as much itself, since the Qur'an is perfect and complete. To make matters worse for the people who put this idea forth, they say, "The Qur'an can be read in any language other than Arabic, it can only be interpreted." If words on a page can't be read, they can't be interpreted. If they can be interpreted, they can be read. You can't have one without the other. And if the Qur'an indeed can't be read in any language other than Arabic, what's the point of having different translations? Aren't these translations inherently corrupted? Why aren't Muslims of all types up in arms about this blatant corruption of the Qur'an? Of course, all of this is silly, but you get the point.

"If your interpretation of the Quran is 'radically different from the norm' you are interpreting the words of God / Allah incorrectly"

Logical fallacy. Different doesn't automatically mean incorrect.

"I'd advise you to take knowledge from Scholars who are able to interpret the Quran"

Why do I need Scholars to interpret the Qur'an for me? I have the Qur'an itself, I can just read it and go from there.
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IslamicRevival
04-08-2013, 10:10 PM
Originally Posted by KenPruitt
Why do I need Scholars to interpret the Qur'an for me? I have the Qur'an itself, I can just read it and go from there.
Have a read

It is impossible for any human being upon whom divine revelation did not descend with Allah's support, to understand the Shari`a, its details, and its rulings autonomously, from the Qur'an alone. It is therefore inevitable that one must look into the Sunna which was revealed together with the Qur'an and the Sunna which the Prophet inferred from striving to understand the Qur'an, in which inferring he received divine confirmation.

One must therefore avail oneself of the Sunna [i.e. accept and make use of it] in order to understand Allah Almighty's meaning and infer the details of rulings from the Qur'an, because the Sunna is the only path to achieve that objective. If the Sunna were not probative then this would not be the case. Nor would it be correct for any of those who exert scholarly striving to look into the Sunna and avail himself of it toward that end. As a result no-one would have understood what exactly they are held responsible for, the rulings would have been disregarded, the legal liabilities (al-takalif) would have been cancelled and in vain, all of which is absurd and impossible on the part of Allah Almighty and Exalted.

What makes it clear that it is impossible for a mujtahid to rely solely on the Qur'an to extract what we mentioned, is that because the Qur'an has reached such a level of miraculous inimitability (i`jaz) and the farthest limit of eloquence and economy, it contains many secondary meanings, treasure troves and secrets, many of which are known only to Him Whose Speech this is, and to him upon whom their exposition was descended and revealed .

Al-Bukhari narrated in this respect that when the Prophet was asked about the status of donkeys (i.e. in comparison with horses in merit, especially in jihad), he replied: "Nothing was revealed to me concerning them except this all-encompassing, peerless verse: {And whoso does good an atom's weight will see it then, and whoso does ill an atom's weight will see it then} (99:7-8)."1 Consider how the Prophet took the ruling concerning donkeys from that verse, and is anyone else able to do this?2

Furthermore, the Qur'an contains stipulations that are summarized (mujmala) and others that are complex (mushkila). It is therefore necessary, in order to put them into practice, to have an explanation that expounds, clarifies, interprets, and explains them. It is further necessary that such an exposition come from Allah Almighty and Exalted because it is He that has thrust responsibility upon His servants and therefore He knows what is being meant before anyone else. And this explanation is the Sunna that revelation brought or upon which Allah Almighty and Exalted confirmed His Prophet if it originated in elucidatory striving on his part. Hence Allah Almighty and Exalted said {And We have revealed unto you the Remembrance that you may explain to mankind that which has been revealed for them} (16:44).
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KenPruitt
04-08-2013, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by Vision
It is impossible for any human being upon whom divine revelation did not descend with Allah's support, to understand the Shari`a, its details, and its rulings autonomously, from the Qur'an alone. It is therefore inevitable that one must look into the Sunna which was revealed together with the Qur'an and the Sunna which the Prophet inferred from striving to understand the Qur'an, in which inferring he received divine confirmation.
And yet, the Hadith wasn't preserved in the same manner as the Qur'an, and to say that it was is to directly misquote the Qur'an. Also, those such as Al-Bukhari and the other Imams directly benefit from this kind of interpretation, so forgive me if I'm more than a little suspicious of it.
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جوري
04-08-2013, 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by KenPruitt
so forgive me if I'm more than a little suspicious of it.
This concerns us how?


Originally Posted by KenPruitt
Most of them hate my guts after hearing a few words from me.
Can't imagine anyone giving a d@mn really but OK.

What can we do for you truly?

best,
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YusufNoor
04-09-2013, 12:39 AM
Originally Posted by KenPruitt
I haven't even explained my interpretation, and I've already offended quite a few people.

"you're not entitled to interpret the Qur'an. you probably don't even know Arabic, so you've never even read it."

The idea that you the Qur'an can't be read in any other language than Arabic makes absolutely no sense. If that were so, the Qur'an would've said as much itself, since the Qur'an is perfect and complete. To make matters worse for the people who put this idea forth, they say, "The Qur'an can be read in any language other than Arabic, it can only be interpreted." If words on a page can't be read, they can't be interpreted. If they can be interpreted, they can be read. You can't have one without the other. And if the Qur'an indeed can't be read in any language other than Arabic, what's the point of having different translations? Aren't these translations inherently corrupted? Why aren't Muslims of all types up in arms about this blatant corruption of the Qur'an? Of course, all of this is silly, but you get the point.

"If your interpretation of the Quran is 'radically different from the norm' you are interpreting the words of God / Allah incorrectly"

Logical fallacy. Different doesn't automatically mean incorrect.

"I'd advise you to take knowledge from Scholars who are able to interpret the Quran"

Why do I need Scholars to interpret the Qur'an for me? I have the Qur'an itself, I can just read it and go from there.
!


actually, you DO NOT have the Qur'an itself if you are not reading it in Arabic. the English language simply isn't adequate enough to explain the full meaning of the text. let me go count...i have at least 11 different translations of the Qur'an (4-5000 pages worth) some with commentary and some with Tafseer. NONE are the same. if you want to tell me that you have read 10 different translations and you want to compare notes on a certain text, fine. but you think you have like a masters degree in the Qur'an cuz you read like Yusuf Ali. then you are sadly mistaken. or just plain sad...

i bet you don't know anything about Hadith either, but you say that you think that you are an authority on them. perhaps we should find out real quick, how old are you?

and i would still like an answer to the question: what is it in your education, that in your opinion, makes you a great moralist?

and perhaps, and i'm just saying, that people seem to hate you because you are really annoying and dis-likable?

peace
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جوري
04-09-2013, 12:43 AM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
because you are really annoying and dis-likable?
Unfortunately they're always the last to know.. For some reason their psyche feeds them the other stuff! :D
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KenPruitt
04-09-2013, 02:49 AM
I tried my best to be respectful, but I clearly wasted my time. This is the last time that I'm going to try to reach out to Muslims. You've all proven to me that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Muslims are nothing more than a pack of arrogant, self-centered, idolworshipping bafoons who are absolutely not to be taken seriously.

Good day.
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YusufNoor
04-09-2013, 04:34 AM
Originally Posted by KenPruitt
I tried my best to be respectful, but I clearly wasted my time. This is the last time that I'm going to try to reach out to Muslims. You've all proven to me that, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that Muslims are nothing more than a pack of arrogant, self-centered, idolworshipping bafoons who are absolutely not to be taken seriously.

Good day.
you mean you are not going to stick around and dazzle us with your brilliance and enlighten us with your intellect? :crickey:

whatever shall we do now? :?

alas, parting is such sweet sorrow...

:'(:'(:'(



:threadclo
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جوري
04-09-2013, 01:51 PM
You give da3wa and take insults all you want to the religion and prophet before you decide to pay close attention to his words where he professes intent and reception!
Per suret al'anfal if :Allah::swt: had known any good in them he'd have made them listen!

Best,
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IbnAbdulHakim
04-09-2013, 07:20 PM
you dont sound bad.


there was this one colleague who was a staunch atheist and he was actually teaching me the job so i was with him for a while. once it wasjust me and him sitting down and he turns to me and says,

"i want to have a serious discussion regarding religion, is that ok?"

i replied,

"sure as long as its mature and respectful with due thought to boundaries"

his opening statement was,

"i think religion is the cause of all things evil"


now i could have flipped out, i could have thought him a moron and dismissed him by changing the subject but instead....

me: with a smile "why, what make you say that?"



after two hours he believed religion can bring about a lot of good,



so to be honest i dont agree with those muslims who have turned you away. if you misinterpret quran its their job to correct you
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Jalal~
04-10-2013, 01:38 AM
I don't like butting into such a heated thread atm, but seriously guys, if you want to help him, then using curse words and insulting him isn't going to help at all. How you convey the message is just as important as the message itself, so if you really want to persuade Mr. KenPruitt, then do it in a nice way. It doesn't seem right to see you guys ranting on about his mistakes, and then putting salams or some kind of salutation at the end, lol. :) Just lay off on the poor guy, he definitely isn't going to change his views through a simple thread post on Islamic Board. Just lend him a helping hand, and ultimately Allah will guide him if he is serious about learning the deen.
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Futuwwa
04-11-2013, 04:59 PM
For all you who denounce Ken, how exactly do you suggest he should communicate? What would, according to you, be the correct way to communicate his position?
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YusufNoor
04-11-2013, 08:10 PM
:sl:

for those of you who have English as a second language, Ken is the one who was upset because he didn't like the responses he was given.

i musta missed all those curse words flung at him.

he took advice as an insult, please find an insult before this post:

I haven't even explained my interpretation, and I've already offended quite a few people.

"you're not entitled to interpret the Qur'an. you probably don't even know Arabic, so you've never even read it."

The idea that you the Qur'an can't be read in any other language than Arabic makes absolutely no sense. If that were so, the Qur'an would've said as much itself, since the Qur'an is perfect and complete. To make matters worse for the people who put this idea forth, they say, "The Qur'an can be read in any language other than Arabic, it can only be interpreted." If words on a page can't be read, they can't be interpreted. If they can be interpreted, they can be read. You can't have one without the other. And if the Qur'an indeed can't be read in any language other than Arabic, what's the point of having different translations? Aren't these translations inherently corrupted? Why aren't Muslims of all types up in arms about this blatant corruption of the Qur'an? Of course, all of this is silly, but you get the point.

"If your interpretation of the Quran is 'radically different from the norm' you are interpreting the words of God / Allah incorrectly"

Logical fallacy. Different doesn't automatically mean incorrect.

"I'd advise you to take knowledge from Scholars who are able to interpret the Quran"

Why do I need Scholars to interpret the Qur'an for me? I have the Qur'an itself, I can just read it and go from there.
and i'll leave you with this one:

Bismillah.
عَنْ مَحْمُودِ بْنِ لَبِيدٍ أَنَّ رَسُولَ اللهِ صَلَّى اللَّهُ عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ قَالَ: “إِنَّ أَخْوَفَ مَا أَخَافُ عَلَيْكُمْ الشِّرْكُ الْأَصْغَرُ“
قَالُوا: وَمَا الشِّرْكُ الْأَصْغَرُ يَا رَسُولَ اللهِ؟
قَالَ: “الرِّيَاءُ، يَقُولُ اللَّهُ عَزَّ وَجَلَّ لَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ إِذَا جُزِيَ النَّاسُ بِأَعْمَالِهِمْ اذْهَبُوا إِلَى الَّذِينَ كُنْتُمْ تُرَاءُونَ فِي الدُّنْيَا فَانْظُرُوا هَلْ تَجِدُونَ عِنْدَهُمْ جَزَاءً“
أخرجه أحمد وصححه الألباني

It is narrated from Mahmood ibn Labeed [RA] that the Messenger of Allah [SAWS] said, “Indeed the thing that I fear most for you is the minor shirk.”
The companions asked, “And what is minor shirk, Oh Messenger of Allah [SAWS]?”
He [SAWS] said, “It is Ar-Riyaa. Allah will say to the people of riyaa on the Day of Judgement – when the people are being re-payed for their deeds – ‘Go to those who you showed off your deeds to in the worldly life then see if you can find any reward with them!’”

[Reported by Imam Ahmad and Authenticated by Shaikh Al-Albani]


Vocabulary from the Hadith:

الرِّيَاءُ – Ar-Riyaa
Linguistically, riyaa means showing, displaying something.
In the Shariah, riyaa means a good deed done with the intention that people may see it and praise the doer for the action.

Lessons from the Hadith:

“So you will see the person doing riyaa beautifying the deed in-front of people. And he does not intend obedience to Allah with this beautification of his action.

Truly, some of the most important reasons for riyaa are exhibitionism/pretentiousness, desiring position of significance and weakness of faith. Moreover, the most dangerous consequences of riyaa are deprivation of acceptance of deeds with Allah and the loss of trust/reliance between people.

Allah has certainly set two foundational conditions for the acceptance of deeds. They are:
1) The action is good, righteous action within the bounds of the Shariah and compliant with the Qur’an and Sunnah.
2) The action is done purely for the sake of Allah, far removed from every type of shirk, whether it is major shirk or minor shirk; and riyaa is a type of shirk.”
have a nice day!

wa salaam
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Futuwwa
04-12-2013, 05:50 AM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
i musta missed all those curse words flung at him.
Straw man and non sequitur. The absence of curse words does not imply that your, or anyone else's, post is inoffensive.

He asked for advice in how to communicate his position better. You didn't give it, you flatly stated that his position is ignorant and wrong and he needs to abandon his position, and sarcastically asked him a totally irrelevant question about what "makes him a great moralist".
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YusufNoor
04-12-2013, 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Straw man and non sequitur. The absence of curse words does not imply that your, or anyone else's, post is inoffensive.

that was in reference to the post above yours

He asked for advice in how to communicate his position better. You didn't give it, you flatly stated that his position is ignorant and wrong and he needs to abandon his position, and sarcastically asked him a totally irrelevant question about what "makes him a great moralist".
no, i'm trying to explain to him that his position on his "interpreting the Qur'an" is based on ignorance, and tried to offer some reasons to back my position.
and sarcastically asked him a totally irrelevant question about what "makes him a great moralist
he started to remind me a dude in another thread (a recent one) where the guy kept asking a question and then listed the answers that he didn't want (which, iirc, were correct answers). so no matter what response is given, he got (or acted) offended. so, i figured why not try a different angle? he stated that he finds Islam and the Qur'an deficient morally. i may have been giving him more credit than he deserves, but i figured maybe that is what he really wants to discuss. he addressed on of my views before, so i was really hoping that he would tell me the basis for his train of thought on that.

oh, and what is it in your education, that in your opinion, makes you a great moralist?
if answers, which appear really relevant, are "predisposed" to set him off. why not probe an area that he didn't ask a direct question. rather than go after a particular view, why not tell us where he is coming from? i figured (at the time) that he really wants to debate morality, then let's set the parameters.

OK, now that i think he's about 12, maybe a little harsh. but i presume that someone comes to an Islamic site and insults the Qur'an that he is "itching for a fight" and prepared to debate. so, let's just get into it. if you are a moralist, then there must be a "school" of thought that you adhere to, which ones of the ancient philosophers are your guys. there used to be great debates on these issues. i'm assuming and older viewpoint because a modernists tends to find all religious opinions morally offensive, he didn't.

and it's only the "idolworshipping buffoon" comment that makes me think he's 12, if he ain't, then let's go. i'm ready to discuss moral issues.

but if i missed the mark and he's just some poor emotionally challenged kid who doesn't know how to talk to people. i rather hope not, then i would feel horrible. there should be a section for them. i wouldn't presume to know how to deal with them. where i come from, we debated morals issue all night long, past sunrise. it is our culture. the number 1 no-no is to talk down to someone. if you have a viewpoint, by all means bring it on! i'm ready! let's get right to the meat of the issue.

BUT, if you're 12...probably a good idea to let someone else talk to him. in which case, you'd be more right than me. but you gotta tell me up-front, cuz i hate it when i'm told i'm patronizing someone. (cuz they only way i know how to define it is: treating someone like a kid)

so Ken, if you're some young lad, i DO apologize, and you should try to talk to some of these other brothers. (gah! now all i can picture is Hanz & Franz saying "OK Ken, you can stay here and play with these girly men") so if you're not, then remember when Bruce Lee would extend his arm, turn his hand upside down and make that little "come on" gesture with his fingers? :alright:
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