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islamica
04-25-2013, 02:05 PM


Stella Tremblay, New Hampshire Legislator, Says U.S. Government Planned Boston Bombing


A Republican state legislator in New Hampshire is claiming that the United States government is responsible for the Boston Marathon bombing.


State Rep. Stella Tremblay (R-Auburn) posted on conservative talk show host Glenn Beck's Facebook page Friday that the attack and the subsequent search for suspects was playing out how Beck had suggested. She said the bombings were a plot by the federal government, and included a link to a video from another conservative talk show host Alex Jones, in which Jones also claims the federal government planned the bombing. Tremblay's message to Beck was posted Friday morning, before suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was arrested.

Just as you said would happen. Top Down, Bottom UP. The Boston Marathon was a Black Ops "terrorist" attack. One suspect killed, the other one will be too before they even have a chance to speak. Drones and now "terrorist" attacks by our own Government. Sad day, but a "wake up" to all of us. First there was a "suspect" then there wasnt. Infowars broke the story and they knew they had been "found out".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/23/stella-tremblay-boston-bombing_n_3140461.html
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islamica
04-26-2013, 12:10 AM
Boston Bombing Suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Reportedly Unarmed When Arrested In Boat, Officials Say



WASHINGTON -- Two U.S. officials say the surviving suspect in the Boston bombings was unarmed when police captured him hiding inside a boat in a neighborhood back yard.


Authorities originally said they had exchanged gunfire with Dzhokhar Tsarnaev (joh-KHAHR' tsahr-NEYE'-ehv) for more than one hour Friday evening before they were able to subdue him.

The officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss the ongoing investigation, say investigators recovered a 9 mm handgun believed to have been used by Tsarnaev's brother, Tamerlan, from the site of a gun battle Thursday night, which injured a Massachusetts Bay Transportation Authority officer. Dzhokhar was believed to have been shot before he escaped.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/04/24/boston-bombing-suspect-unarmed_n_3150723.html
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islamica
04-26-2013, 12:11 AM


An unnamed whistle blower has come out and said the following... "They're going to pin this event on a male late teens to early 20s and say he did it because he's unstable. They are going to find firearms and a NRA book in his home. They are going to to say he used reloading powder for the explosion and that reloading powder shouldn't be for sale to the public. They are then going to say that because the powder in ammunition can be used for explosions that the number of rounds you can buy should be limited and taxed to help pay for these events."
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islamica
04-26-2013, 12:14 AM
#FreeJahar Campaign Shows Social Media Support for Bombing Suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev



Not everyone believes Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is a terrorist.


Despite seemingly overwhelming evidence pointing toward his involvement in the Boston Marathon attack a week ago, there is a group of people who know Tsarnaev who are remaining loyal to the 19-year-old. The Internet has expanded that group into those who don't know Tsarnaev but are nonetheless supportive, whether sympathetic or inspired by other messages.


Anzor Tsarnaev, Dzhokhar's father, said in an interview that his sons were "set up" and they are "very nice kids" with no experience with weapons or explosives. Zubeidat Tsarnaev, Dzhokhar's mother, added, "I am really, really, really telling you this is a set-up."


Others who knew Dzhokhar have described him as a "sweet guy," a "lovely kid," and a "wonderful kid." His wrestling coach has said he's "dedicated' and "all the kids loved him." One friend posted a video of Dzhokhar goofing off like any other teenager and writes, "This is the Jahar I knew." Even a look through his tweets show plenty of posts you'd expect from a 19-year-old, with little evidence that he carried out the bombing.


On social media, support has caused #FreeJahar to trend on Twitter and photos of support to be shared on Facebook and Instagram. Wired calls the #FreeJahar campaign "a mix of conspiracy theories, sympathy for Tsarnaev and skepticism of the official narrative surrounding the 19-year-old's arrest." The Verge notes that for every message supporting Dzhokhar, "there's a user expressing vitriolic disgust that Tsarnaev supporters exist."


One tweet, according to The Blaze, but it seems it has since been deleted, reads, "#FreeJahar is trending.. i've been doing research literally all day and i do think there's a big chance he's innocent."
A closer look at who Dzhokhar follows on Twitter is also interesting to get a better picture of his support. First, it must be noted that he was seen following 109 users when his account first surfaced.

It's now following 95, as of this writing, so that means 14 users have blocked him on Twitter or deleted their accounts -- perhaps not wanting to be associated with him after the bombing or to deflect attention that many of those he's following are getting.


Numerous people he follows have been seen switching their accounts from public to private to protect their tweets. Some have indeed deleted their accounts altogether.


Many of those he follows who still have publicly-accessible tweets have been vocal in their support for Dzhokhar on Twitter, including Kid_Wavyy who Dzhohar has interacted with more on Twitter than anybody else (31 replies) per a HuffPost analysis of his tweets:




http://www.huffingtonpost.com/craig-...usaolp00000003
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islamica
04-26-2013, 12:21 AM
Some things to reflect on...















More @ http://imgur.com/a/Nx8EU
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جوري
04-26-2013, 01:12 AM
the only story that will make it, is the story they'll put out and it doesn't matter if it isn't the truth.. what matters is that whatever is right is always marred so much so that no one can tell the difference

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IAmZamzam
04-26-2013, 02:26 AM
As much as I can't help but be skeptical (again this was sheerly inevitable) I must say, I'd much rather this be the public's attitude than, "Kill him, kill the filthy Muslim now and let us watch his blood hit the floor!" Their sympathy, or their distraction, or even as it may be a different kind of prejudice, may do well to divert them from the path of anti-Islamic prejudice against innocent people like us who did not participate in this crime. In any event this might mean that there will largely be a shift of focus in the media from the usual "knock Muslims without coming right out and saying it" routine. As much as I sometimes marvel (perhaps seethe) over how soullessly the media (most namely the news media) will just shift right onto any track they think is marketable I do sometimes forget that almost as often as not this fact turns out by chance to be advantageous.
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faithandpeace
04-26-2013, 05:37 AM
There is clearly an agenda going on. Whether or not the suspects are guilty and whether or not this attack was a U.S. government inside job, the portrayal of the attack is being done as a deliberate war on Islam and Muslims. I've come across dozens of news articles now that keep focusing on the fact that the suspect's mother and wife wear hijab, that the wife is a revert, that she changed her name, and that a variety of these people became "radicalized." If it is true that the suspect's wife legally changed her name, why does the media keep referring to her by her previous name? These articles refer to how "normal" she dressed and acted referencing Western clothing and her going to nightclubs and then refer to her being "covered from head to toe" and not drinking, smoking, etc. as if this is somehow not normal. I know exactly why they keep referring to her by her old name. They do not want to accept the legitimacy of someone converting to Islam and adopting an Islamic lifestyle. It is a complete negation of Islam, Islamic culture, religion, and way of life as something that could be seen as valid.

This further confirms what I've been noticing for a long time only that I am concerned it is getting worse. The media, government, employers, schools, the public, etc. in the United States and much of the West have an unhealthy obsession over women wearing headscarves (particularly when the wearer is Muslim) and Islamic values in general. I think there is a cultural war being waged that goes far beyond reporting what criminals have done (if these suspects are guilty). Western capitalism does everything it can to dumb down the public, corrupt women by hypersexualizing their bodies, and secularizing and watering down religion, spirituality, and values because it is easier and farther reaching to market products that way and control people. Perhaps they see Islam as standing in the way. Insha'Allah we can all continue to grow as Muslims and be stronger in imaan and practice including for new reverts such as myself growing by learning as much as we can about Islam, its values, and way of life. This agenda of hatred and bigotry by those wanting to destroy Islam and Muslims only wants to make me become a better Muslimah every day.
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Independent
04-26-2013, 09:45 AM
It's really strange how the people that tell us we are all stupid to trust mainstream media, and not ask questions, are often the same people who ask no questions at all about nonsense they find on the internet. I think this story is one of the least convincing of all conspiracy theories. This is why:

Qui bono?

A question that is always asked about these events is ‘qui bono’ – who benefits? In most cases there are a wide and totally incompatible set of alternatives offered, depending on your own prejudice or political loyalty. This alone should tell you that the supposed motivations aren’t worth much.

One of the people who always benefits is Alex Jones, source of this latest conspiracy theory. This is his JOB. He is a PROFESSIONAL conspiracy theorist. He will ALWAYS say it’s a conspiracy at every single terrorist incident. In the case of Boston, he began making up theories immediately the story broke, before he knew a thing about it. This is making him WEALTHY.

As it stands, the Boston bomb doesn’t lead to any obvious policy change for anyone. It doesn’t provide an excuse to attack another country. It doesn’t have anything to do with gun control. Islam already has a negative image in this respect so it doesn’t make a material difference to that either. As a false flag op, it doesn’t go anywhere.

Who were the security personnel?

It is said that the pictures of guys wearing hats with a skull work for Craft International, a private security firm. This has been debunked repeatedly in the media but persists. Craft is a training company with only a few trainers on the payroll. It does not provide security personnel to anyone. At the end of the course you get a free hat which people continue to wear afterwards because they think it looks ‘cool’.

Want to be part of the next conspiracy? Just order your own genuine Craft international hat now at http://co-store.com/craftgear. You don’t even have to do the course.

Unnamed whistle blower

The first thing to say here is of course that this is worthless. Anyone can post an anonymous claim like this and say anything. Why waste time posting this? With regard to the specific claim – it’s not even correct. He says there was to be one bomber, but there were two. The details of what they discovered don’t tally. Plainly, this post was invented by someone who thought this would turn out to be a patriot plot, before the Muslim link was discovered, and that the objective was a limitation on firearms. This flatly contradicts what Alex Jones is saying, who you also quote as if he’s for real.

Sandy Hook connection

This claims to be a screengrab of an interview with Dawn Hocksprung, the deceased Principal of Sandy Hook school. Plainly it is the same photograph on either side so I’m not sure what it tells us, apart from someone is using photoshop or it’s a newsroom mistake.

The successor to Dawn at Sandy Hook is a lady called Donna Page. Notice that the name in the picture is also Donna. It’s possible that they mixed up the old picture with the new person.

If this really was the conspiracy it’s supposed to be, they would not be so breath-takingly stupid as to allow one of their Sandy Hook fake victims to be interviewed on tv.

Parents say the bombers were good kids

I’m sorry, but this counts for nothing. They wouldn’t be the first parents in the world that refused to accept their kids had committed a crime.

Stella Tremblay

Her claim is wrong already. The second suspect is not dead, he is in custody and talking (or writing, as he was injured in the neck). So it didn’t happen ‘just as Alex Jones said’.

Perhaps you didn’t read the rest of the Huffington Post link – they obviously think Stella Tremblay is a nutjob: “Last October, Tremblay sent an email to the other 399 state House members with a doctored video she claimed depicted President Barack Obama saying that he was not born in the United States. She said the video was sufficient proof to open an investigation into Obama's citizenship. In February, Tremblay told a legislative committee that former President Woodrow Wilson agree with Adolf Hitler, even though Wilson died before Hitler rose to power”.

Boston Bombing Suspect Dzhokhar Tsarnaev Reportedly Unarmed When Arrested In Boat, Officials Say

Congratulations, this actually seems to be correct and it’s part of the official account now. One shot was fired and that set everybody else off for an hour. So what?

Conspiracy theories in general

Unfortunately, conspiracy theories are now part of our lives and there will never be another major incident without this kind of rubbish. According to these theories, there has never been a major terrorist incident in the States. Ever. They’re all fake.

With each new incident it becomes more and more incredible that anyone could pull this off without getting caught. Maybe you might just think it’s possible once or twice, but not for all of them.

The real difference in recent years is 24 hour live media. It’s in the nature of this media that they will make any number of mistakes and false leads along the way. They have to find something new to say all day long. They also make mistakes about other non controversial incidents, but nobody’s interested in those so they don’t get mentioned.

The other difference is where we’re talking now – the internet. The internet has brought us many wonderful things. Unfortunately, it has also brought us Alex Jones.
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islamica
04-26-2013, 01:07 PM

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev may never speak again



The surviving suspect in the Boston marathon bombings may never be able to speak to the FBI after suffering a gunshot wound to his throat and tongue.

Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, 19, who was also shot in the leg, is under guard and handcuffed to the bed in hospital where he is in a “very serious” condition, sedated and connected to a breathing tube.

Tom Menino, the Boston mayor, said: “We don’t know if we’ll ever be able to question the individual.”

Police are unsure whether they inflicted the throat wound or if Dzhokhar shot himself by putting a gun in his mouth as he hid in a boat in a suburban garden during a day-long manhunt.

Boston Police Commissioner Ed Davis said: "It's hard to know how he received that injury. That's being looked into."

Police said that Dzhokhar and his brother 26-year-old brother Tamerlan – who was killed in a shootout a day earlier – had been arming themselves for “further attacks” when they were found.

Chief Deveau also disclosed dramatic details of the shoot-out, in which Tamerlan was killed, and revealed how, in the chaos, his death was caused by Dzhokhar.

[I thought they said he was unarmed? ]

A single officer was first to encounter the fugitives at 12.30am local time on Friday in a residential street in Watertown, a suburb of Boston.

They were in two separate vehicles, including a four-wheel-drive Mercedes they had carjacked.

Chief Deveau said: “They jump out of the cars and unload on our police officer. They both came out shooting. Shooting guns, handguns. He’s under direct fire, very close by.

“He has to jam it in reverse and try to get himself a little distance.”

As five other officers arrived, 200 shots were fired in 10 minutes. One of the brothers threw exploding devices including a pressure cooker bomb which landed on a car.

Tamerlan then broke cover and walked directly at officers firing a gun. The police chief said: “They were having a gunfight 10 feet apart. And then for us, thank God, he ran out of ammunition. He runs out of ammunition, the bad guy, and so one of my police officers comes off the side and tackles him in the street.”

As they tried to handcuff him, Dzhokhar drove the Mercedes straight at them but missed the police, hitting his own brother and dragging him 20ft before racing off.

[Given their credibility, we are going to believe them in that he killed his own brother? ]

Chief Deveau said: “The officers dive out of the way and he (Dzhokhar) drives over his brother and drags him a short distance down the street.”

Doctors said Tamerlan had injuries “head to toe”. There were so many they did not know which one had killed him.

The brothers were found to have had six improvised explosive devices including a satchel bomb, handguns, a rifle, 250 rounds of ammunition, and home-made grenades.

Dzhokhar dumped the Mercedes a few streets away.

Nineteen hours later, he was found bloodied and hiding underneath a tarpaulin in the boat in the back yard of David Henneberry’s home.

Stark images from a thermal imaging camera on a helicopter showed him lying inside the boat. Police used a robot to remove the tarpaulin and threw in flash bombs.

A negotiator on the second floor of the house, looking down on the boat, successfully talked Dzhokhar out after 30 minutes.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...eak-again.html


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جوري
04-26-2013, 01:25 PM
When I saw the focus on the radicalized wife whose story isn't convincing btw not sure why she wears a veil even her husband seemed like a party dude whom I personally doubt was able at all to make prayers- girl next door to brain washed terrorist I just turn off the news or switch to something else. So sick of their crap to the point of complete aversion. I suggest you guys do the same bottom line is always a dollar don't boost their rating by watching their manure.

:w:
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Independent
04-26-2013, 01:40 PM
Why are you continuing to post unsubstantiated rumours, some of which are already out of date? Why do you question every detail of the official account but nothing from Alex Jones et al, even though they have contradicted each other and altered their stories in all directions? If the official story contained 10% of the lies that Alex Jones has already put out you would be all over them.

format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
Tom Menino, the Boston mayor, said: “We don’t know if we’ll ever be able to question the individual.”
This report dates from the 21st. He can't talk, he has a neck wound. But he can write and nod/shake head. He has already answered some questions (including 'can you afford a lawyer').

format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
[I thought they said he was unarmed? ]
This has also been covered in the media. When he was hiding, they assumed he was still armed and that he had shot at them from the boat (a mistake, but hardly a surprising one). When he was arrested they found he had not carried any weapon with him from the car chase. So what? No inconsistency here.

As for the blood, it is impossible to see clearly enough in those pics. We already know he's been through a major shoot out anyway. What would be the point of injuring him later but not enough to kill him? None at all. If they wanted him dead, as many conspiracy theorists incorrectly predicted, he would be dead.
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islamica
04-26-2013, 01:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Why are you continuing to post unsubstantiated rumours, some of which are already out of date? Why do you question every detail of the official account but nothing from Alex Jones et al, even though they have contradicted each other and altered their stories in all directions? If the official story contained 10% of the lies that Alex Jones has already put out you would be all over them.
These "unsubstantiated rumours" are news stories and someone QUESTIONING the "status quo" of them. Alex jones is one among many who have their viewpoints, he is not the be all and end all source of information. I'm presenting information contrary to the "statue quo" version. We already know how legit 9-11 and other previous "terrorist attacks" were, but all those experts in their receptive fields (engineers, physicists, fire experts, etc) who don't sing the same tune are "nut job" and "conspirators". As for the media and the government, we all know how credible they are with their lies of WMD in order invade a nation, among other things. So you'll have to excuse me if I don't quite agree to your continuous efforts to rebuke and label as "conspiracy" anything that is contrary to the "status quo".
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جوري
04-26-2013, 02:01 PM
Great posts sis keep em coming!
Even your rights to free speech on an Islamic board they'd see fit to deny you!
Sobhan Allah
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Mustafa2012
04-26-2013, 02:14 PM
:salam:

:jz:

This is an interesting find.

As I said before, the Zionist media cannot be trusted. Government/s cannot be trusted.

They have their own agendas.

Muslims are not the ones that Westerners have only to be worried about.

Don't believe a word of what is reported in the media until you have read about any given story from a number of different independent sources and sources you personally trust.

This whole thing is starting to look like something created right out of Hollywood with special effects and all.

Look at the pictures.

They have all the hallmarks of a cover up just like 9..
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Independent
04-26-2013, 02:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
These "unsubstantiated rumours" are news stories
Just about anything is a news story if someone's prepared to say it.

format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
I'm presenting information contrary to the "statue quo" version.
Come off it. At this stage, conspiracy theories are every bit as 'establishment' or status quo as anything the mainstream media or the Government say (especially in forums like this one). What really would be radical would be if Alex Jones etc came out and said that this was not a false flag op. That really would be amazing.

But hey, he has an income to maintain...

format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
all those experts in their receptive fields
It's amazing how often these 'experts' are not experts in a relevant field. (eg David Ray Griffin of Architects & Engineers for 9/11 Truth is actually a Professor of Religion - which explains a lot). The world is a big place and you will find someone prepared to say just about anything if you look hard enough.

Answer me this: why is the US the only country in the world that's immune to terrorist attacks? The CIA must be amazing. They are the best intelligence agency in the world, they stop everyone (except themselves).
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~Zaria~
04-26-2013, 02:38 PM






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Independent
04-26-2013, 02:39 PM
Found a bit more about the blood on the boat also from CNN - the boat owner says the blood was inside, not outside - he was just going to his boat anyway, it wasn't the blood that made him look:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/23/us...ner/index.html
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islamica
04-26-2013, 02:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mustafa2012
:salam:

:jz:



Don't believe a word of what is reported in the media until you have read about any given story from a number of different independent sources and sources you personally trust.

This whole thing is starting to look like something created right out of Hollywood with special effects and all.

Look at the pictures.

They have all the hallmarks of a cover up just like 9..
wa'alaikum as'salaam,

an interesting khutbah i heard recently, the imam said the same thing about blindly listening and forwarding everything coming to you vs verifying what comes to you and question everything and think for yourself. Some points he raised were:

“O you who believe! If a Faasiq (liar — evil person) comes to you with any news, verify it, lest you should harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful for what you have done”
[al-Hujuraat 49:6]

The Lawgiver issued a stern warning against passing on all that one hears. It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “It is enough sin for a man to speak of everything that he hears.” Al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, 2025.

Al-Nawawi said: Usually a person hears truth and lies, so if he speaks of everything that he hears, he is lying by telling of things that did not happen, and lying by speaking of something other than the way it happened; and he does not have to do that deliberately (in order to be regarded as telling lies).

and propaganda of certain agencies, organizations and media to show Islam and Muslims in a certain light as well as promote some agendas as a result of these events.


Reminds me of this....






format_quote Originally Posted by Independent

Answer me this: why is the US the only country in the world that's immune to terrorist attacks? The CIA must be amazing. They are the best intelligence agency in the world, they stop everyone (except themselves).

Something’s Rotten in Boston Who’s Investigating the FBI Investigators?

http://www.fromthetrenchesworldrepor...tigators/41985

Ted Gunderson Former FBI Chief - Most Terror Attacks Are Committed By Our own FBI & CIA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YZ2VpfUqRoo


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Found a bit more about the blood on the boat also from CNN - the boat owner says the blood was inside, not outside - he was just going to his boat anyway, it wasn't the blood that made him look:

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/23/us...ner/index.html

I don't think you get it. what makes you think we will trust the mouthpieces of propaganda, lies and what have you .


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Independent
04-26-2013, 03:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
Something’s Rotten in Boston Who’s Investigating the FBI Investigators?
format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
Ted Gunderson Former FBI Chief - Most Terror Attacks Are Committed By Our own FBI & CIA
These links don't answer my question. How can the US be totally immune to terrorist attack (except its own internal ops)? Why is no one in the world even trying to attack them?
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Naeema
04-26-2013, 03:20 PM
One of the people at the scene was wearing a Craft hat - I'm not disputing that. I would like to clarify a bit about the distinctive skull and why it is seen so widely. It's not originally a SEAL thing, a Blackwater thing, or a Craft thing. It was developed by Marvel comics for their character, The Punisher, in the 1970's.

When SEAL teams started adopting it, Marvel didn't stop it. As time marched on, Craft was founded by a former SEAL and continued to use the skull. Each organization tweaks it a little - SEAL Team 3 puts a 3 on it; Craft uses crosshairs, Craft, or a C; the rare time that Blackwater Security used it, they put their paw logo in the skull.

People wear Punisher stuff just like they wear Batman stuff. You can buy things with a Punisher skull in WalMart, on Amazon, in an average comic book shop. You can buy that Craft hat on the internet for $22.95.

Triple Canopy uses three Star Trek communicators as their logo. Because they made their own logo, I don't see as much of it on the street. I'd be much more concerned if I saw a Triple Canopy hat than a Craft hat. (DynCorp's logo is just dull as dishwater - hard to spot from afar.)
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IAmZamzam
04-26-2013, 03:25 PM
Sure enough, we didn't even make it to page two before the word "Zionism" popped up.
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faithandpeace
04-26-2013, 03:27 PM
Jazakallah khair to Islamica for helping to expose these lies. It really is sad for the people killed and maimed in the attacks and for the lives ruined as a result of this suspicious attack. On the other hand, I wonder when the media and government is going to make the public aware of the 600,000+ innocent Iraqis who have been murdered. Or are supposed 19 year old teenagers with crockpots more important?
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Independent
04-26-2013, 03:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
I don't think you get it. what makes you think we will trust the mouthpieces of propaganda, lies and what have you .
When Alex Jones and others continue to spread the story about Craft he is, demonstrably, lying. As this is his full-time job I know for certain that he knows he is lying. Why would i trust a proven liar who makes a living from spreading lies?
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جوري
04-26-2013, 03:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
I know for certain that he knows he is lying
:lol: I am sure your very strong assertions will stand up in the court of public opinion.. at any rate Alex Jones isn't the only one talking about this in fact while he sits in his office others are out there with their video camera.. You can't confiscate every phone and control what people see!

best,
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جوري
04-26-2013, 03:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by faithandpeace
Jazakallah khair to Islamica for helping to expose these lies. It really is sad for the people killed and maimed in the attacks and for the lives ruined as a result of this suspicious attack. On the other hand, I wonder when the media and government is going to make the public aware of the 600,000+ innocent Iraqis who have been murdered. Or are supposed 19 year old teenagers with crockpots more important?
Forget about them owning up to how they maintain their economy which they'll no longer be able to sustain who else is there to occupy and subjugate at this stage? We're talking about death and concentration camps and denial of due process to citizens- it has already happened, what is so conspiracy about that? Was Alwalqi not an American? and even if he were the horrible bad guy they proclaim (without trial) what of his son also an American citizen and a teenager!
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Independent
04-26-2013, 04:06 PM
Would anyone like to tell us how all the presidents over the last 50 years were recruited to this conspiracy? And then all the presidential candidates (in case they won instead)? And then all the leaders of Britain, France, Spain etc? And all their losing candidates? We'd better include half the governments as well, these things are hard to do alone.

Then we need the staff of all the intelligence agencies, generation upon generation. We need the police. We need medical staff. We need the media, of course. We need the families of Sandy Hook, who miraculously are still keeping quiet about not being dead (they must be bursting to tell!). We need the passengers from the 9/11 jets. We need Bin Laden and his mates. So many thousands, tens of thousands.

All these people had to be recruited. And not one of them said 'no' and told the rest of us.
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جوري
04-26-2013, 04:29 PM
Simple, everyone that comes into office is hand chosen.. People are under the delusions that they've a choice in the matter. Independent units hardly have any votes all presidents who have come into office except for van buren are related:

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جوري
04-26-2013, 04:32 PM
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IAmZamzam
04-26-2013, 04:33 PM
Forget it, Independent. Israel is the nexus of the entire space-time continuum and that's that. All human life revolves around it. All human corruption can be traced back to it in some way or other. All conspiracies in the world involve it, and all things that happen, happen only because of conspiracies. The Israel-Palestine conflict, in short, is life, the universe and everything. If a man gets pickpocketed on the streets in the middle of Rio, you can safely bet that one way or another Zionists are going to get blamed. If racism and anti-Semitism aren't subconsciously the cause of this obsession then there is at the very least some kind of serious cultural baggage involved--the same kind of traumatized reaction which causes a shell-shocked veteran to keep seeing Charlie's face everywhere in town thirty years after he's left 'Nam. He may not be a racist for that but he's got some serious issues he needs to work out all the same.
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جوري
04-26-2013, 04:36 PM
d@mn straight .. no amount of chuckles is gonna change the fact of the matter. Sarcasm is hardly an argument btw.. There's the liege to the devil ( all in political/economic power) and the liege to

and that's how it is always been and that's how it will always be until life ceases to exist!
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Independent
04-26-2013, 04:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
Simple, everyone that comes into office is hand chosen
Yes, and we're all descended from Adam and Eve, so I guess we're all in on it. The girl herself is also related to the presidents. If she can do another survey and find that none of the losing candidates are related, then I'm interested. Even then you still need the huge numbers of police etc. Or are they all related too?

Seriously - how are all these people supposed to be recruited? Why does no one ever say no? There must be a theory for this in conspiracy land?
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جوري
04-26-2013, 04:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Yes, and we're all descended from Adam and Eve, so I guess we're all in on it. The girl herself is also related to the presidents.

Seriously - how are all these people supposed to be recruited? Why does no one ever say no? There must be a theory for this in conspiracy land?
Why would kaffirs say no to power & privilege? I can't think of a single good reason. Also since when did 'Adam & Eve' enter the scene? aren't we all descended of apes who themselves descended from coelacanth which developed lungs and feet? Come on.. at least stick with a story!

best,
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Independent
04-26-2013, 04:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
Also since when did 'Adam & Eve' enter the scene
I was talking about Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam of course (joke).

format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
Why would kaffirs say no to power & privilege?
That's not good enough, you need 100% success rate over decades or centuries (depending on how long you want to run this conspiracy back for). And you need tens of thousands of assistants (hundreds of thousands if you go back further). They can't all be sharing in the wealth and power. i don't see thousands of police/FBI/medical workers/journalists buying mansions with mysterious money.

Is there a story for this in conspiracy land? Surely there must be? I've had a little look but I can only find stuff about 9/11.
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جوري
04-26-2013, 04:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
I was talking about Mitochondrial Eve and Y-chromosomal Adam of course (joke).
I am not seeing the humor in that!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
That's not good enough, you need 100% success rate over decades or centuries
& they've indeed all except for van buren- contrary to popular beliefs not every boy can grow up to be president. Only those hand picked and propelled to the top get to be!

best,
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Independent
04-26-2013, 05:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
& they've indeed all except for van buren- contrary to popular beliefs not every boy can grow up to be president. Only those hand picked and propelled to the top get to be!
The leaders aren't enough, you need tens of thousands of support staff who don't seem to get much out of this. They also need to be recruited with 100% success rate.

As for the leaders, they are of totally different political views. Many of them have manifestly hated each other. Nixon played dirty to stay in power. Yet you say they are all in it together, all on the same side.
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جوري
04-26-2013, 05:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
The leaders aren't enough, you need tens of thousands of support staff who don't seem to get much out of this. They also need to be recruited with 100% success rate.
Not really. Who says? You? Do low level employees have a reason to know why they use the 12 mm cord in blue over the 24mm one in yellow? Most people just do what they're told because someone on top told them to do so. Many times in the progress notes we simply write 'per protocol' does that mean we all ran the studies or even trust in the results of the studies? NO.
All the leaders have the exact same views and same agenda behind door number two is door number one is evinced by the fact that the system is the same maintained the world over or is otherwise exported through drones.

best,
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Independent
04-26-2013, 05:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
Most people just do what they're told because someone on top told them to do so
Party officials need to be forced to pick one candidate rather than another.
Political parties have to agree to 'pretend' they care about right and left, when in fact they just hand power on to the next chosen one.
Police need to understand why they are planting bombs instead of stopping them.
Medical workers need to know why the people they are suppsoed to be treating don't exist.
Journalists need to have it explained to them why they have to write about things that didn't happen.
And so on, and so on.

These are not small things. Covering up/assisting in mass murder is not something you do just because your boss told you too.

So yes, you need thousands. Is there really nothing about this in conspiracy land? Surely there must be some attempt to explain it!
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جوري
04-26-2013, 05:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Party officials need to be forced to pick one candidate rather than another.
Why forced picked? I imagine people go into politics and run for presidency because they enjoy that line of work- the line of work is specific you can't really take this so called democratic country and turn it into a monarchy you've to maintain the system in place!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Political parties have to agree to 'pretend' they care about right and left, when in fact they just hand power on to the next chosen one.
Their agenda is really one in the end on the big issues they only trifle over stupid things else you'd have had major ongoing civil wars!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Police need to understand why they are planting bombs instead of stopping them.
You don't need the entire police force to plant a bomb, get your head out of the gutter!

format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Medical workers need to know why the people they are suppsoed to be treating don't exist.
Not sure how this fits into your story? padding perhaps?
You treat the ones you get- you don't need to know the culprit to understand the etiology or rx of dz.

format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Journalists need to have it explained to them why they have to write about things that didn't happen.
And so on, and so on.
Journalists who write otherwise are labeled conspirators. The story only needs to break out in one corporate media and the rest report the same.


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
These are not small things. Covering up/assisting in mass murder is not something you do just because your boss told you too.
You'd think there was a mass murder here right the way they're all behaving- but not really.. it is never a matter of diagnosis it is always a matter of management.. we'll see the results and we're seeing the results as we speak.


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
So yes, you need thousands. Is there really nothing about this in conspiracy land? Surely there must be some attempt to explain it!
Try to follow what people are saying, you won't have such a difficult time understanding simple things!

best,
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Independent
04-26-2013, 05:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Forget it, Independent. Israel is the nexus of the entire space-time continuum and that's that. All human life revolves around it.
I know anti semiticism is not far beneath the surface here - but some people have other culprits and explanations for the same evidence.
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Independent
04-26-2013, 05:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
Why forced picked? I imagine people go into politics and run for presidency because they enjoy that line of wor
I'm not sure of the system in the US, but in the Uk you have to be selected to be a candidate first as an MP, then later as party leader. Many people get to vote on this. It's incredibly hard to see how you could stage manage the result again and again.

format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
Their agenda is really one in the end on the big issues they only trifle over stupid things else you'd have had major ongoing civil wars!
Tea Party etc seem to think the differences are worth fighting about.

format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
You don't need the entire police force to plant a bomb, get your head out of the gutter!
But you would need most of, say, Boston's force for this event.

format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
Journalists who write otherwise are labeled conspirators. The story only needs to break out in one corporate media and the rest report the same.
If the best evidence you have is what Islamica posted earlier, no journalist is going to touch it. Because it's crap.

format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
So yes, you need thousands. Is there really nothing about this in conspiracy land? Surely there must be some attempt to explain it!
I'm disappointed - you don't know the answer to this. We need a conspiracy theory professional to help out. Maybe Jedi.
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جوري
04-26-2013, 06:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
I'm not sure of the system in the US, but in the Uk you have to be selected to be a candidate first as an MP, then later as party leader. Many people get to vote on this. It's incredibly hard to see how you could stage manage the result again and again.
Read up on it, and on electoral votes if you don't know what it is. Our choices were either Obama or Romney!



format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Tea Party etc seem to think the differences are worth fighting about.
Tea party are oafs they don't know how to diplomatically articulate what is already being carried out..
when govt. drones civilian villages, they like the words to accompany that to evoke the notion that it is justifiable!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
But you would need most of, say, Boston's force for this event.
for what reason?


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
If the best evidence you have is what Islamica posted earlier, no journalist is going to touch it. Because it's crap.
I imagine telling the truth doesn't pay well yes, your point being? People can either write for independent sources like Chomsky or Fisk or just tell the story the way those who revolted in the so-called Arab spring have.. Their reality is certainly not echoed by main stream media.. So yeah you stick to the non-crap it makes you fifty percent smarter :)


best,
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Jedi_Mindset
04-26-2013, 06:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
the only story that will make it, is the story they'll put out and it doesn't matter if it isn't the truth.. what matters is that whatever is right is always marred so much so that no one can tell the difference
Wow, didnt know you knew about the gladio operatinos as well sis, this is in my eyes not a conspiracy theory anymore but plain facts and that gladio still exists today! People claim and follow blindly what they want, i see mr independent here is no exception.

I nelieve a italian agent exposed this in open sight, however forgot to know what his name was. Maybe you can post a article about him and shut down independent entirely. Because the gladio paramilitary army was infact admitted by the italian goverment as being a NATO proxy army, doing secret operations, many of these operations were the false flag operations during the cold war.
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Independent
04-26-2013, 06:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
Read up on it, and on electoral votes if you don't know what it is. Our choices were either Obama or Romney!
No, you need to read up on the UK system. You need all these countries to be part of it. The Prime Minister of Britain (equivalent to a US President) is chosen from Members of Parliament so you need to get elected as an MP first. MPs are chosen by their local party committees. It's a long process involving many people. It would be very hard to predict the winner so you would need to recruit many, many people to guarantee the result. That's just in the UK, you face issues in every country.

format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
for what reason?
If the event was faked, they had a front row view of it.

format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
People can either write for independent sources like Chomsky or Fisk
Unfortunately, neither of your independently minded heroes is a conspiracist:

Chomsky: "The concept of "false flag operation" is not a very serious one, in my opinion. None of the examples you describe, or any other in history, has even a remote resemblance to the alleged 9/11 conspiracy. I'd suggest that you look at each of them carefully."

Fisk: "Any military which can claim – as the Americans did two days ago – that al-Qa'ida is on the run is not capable of carrying out anything on the scale of 9/11."

So they are right about everything else but not this? That's convenient for you! Maybe they're in on it too? :)
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جوري
04-26-2013, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
No, you need to read up on the UK system. You need all these countries to be part of it. The Prime Minister of Britain (equivalent to a US President) is chosen from Members of Parliament so you need to get elected as an MP first. MPs are chosen by their local party committees. It's a long process involving many people. It would be very hard to predict the winner so you would need to recruit many, many people to guarantee the result. That's just in the UK, you face issues in every country.
The UK is a poodle to the U.S nonetheless all follow in the same policies!



format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Unfortunately, neither of your independently minded heroes is a conspiracis
I never claimed they were those are your words to describe anyone who doesn't agree with your main stream garbage!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
So they are right about everything else but not this? That's convenient for you! Maybe they're in on it too?
We all know what your job here is and I love the little morsel you always add to your stick.. hopefully you end up eating it in the end since none of us are into manure..

best,
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Independent
04-26-2013, 07:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
The UK is a poodle to the U.S nonetheless all follow in the same policies!
You are accusing the UK and other western governments of collaborating in the mass murder of their own people. An 'order' from the US President is not enough.


format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
I never claimed they were those are your words to describe anyone who doesn't agree with your main stream garbage!
You put them forward (not me) as reputable, independently minded journalists who don't follow the mainstream. Yet even they think you're talking crap.

Jedi, you are the expert here. What is the official conspiracist's explanation for how people are recruited in all the necessary professions and positions in all the countries in all the generations?
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جوري
04-26-2013, 08:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
You are accusing the UK and other western governments of collaborating in the mass murder of their own people. An 'order' from the US President is not enough.
They don't need an order, they're like minded.. however the not so great British empire collapsed and another one risen naturally that's the one that dictates policies.

format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
You put them forward (not me) as reputable, independently minded journalists who don't follow the mainstream. Yet even they think you're talking crap.
How do you figure? You talk crap they don't.. if you actually follow what they write you'd label it conspiracy!
for instance this article:
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/...aq-475889.html

this is not conspiracy per your definitions?

As I stated before it will take much more than your name calling, intellectual bullying & baiting to contain the situation!
best,
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Naeema
04-26-2013, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
I nelieve a italian agent exposed this in open sight, however forgot to know what his name was.
I'm not sure which agent you are recalling. The earliest I recall is when Vincenzo Vinciguerra confessed in 1984 to conducting a bombing in Peteano that had been previously blamed on the Red Brigade. He was Ordine Nuovo and the attack was performed with help from Italy's SID. He talked about an "entire mechanism" that was involved, what we now call Gladio. Prime Minister Andreotti openly admitted to Gladio's existence in 1990. The exact information about what happened and who funded it has never been fully documented. General Gerardo Serravalle publicly acknowledged at trial commanding it from 1971 to 1974. Bits and pieces got out over the years, but always very shadowy and slowly.

France's interior ministry and MOD have also acknowledged having a stay-behind force at times in the 20th century. Belgium eventually wrapped theirs into the SGR. Even the Nazi's had Werwolf (although it was 90% propaganda).

However, like the massacre at Brabant, we may never really know who did a certain thing and exactly why. Was it disillusioned Rijkswacht? Was it organized Rijkswacht? Was it related to roze balletten?

At the end of the day, I'm not sure that it matters what banner flies above a group of people that will engage in despicable acts in the name of justice, glory, or money. Whether it is done ostensibly in the name of 'Murica or Christ or family or a newfound savior, you're an outlier at best.
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Jedi_Mindset
04-26-2013, 08:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Naeema
I'm not sure which agent you are recalling. The earliest I recall is when Vincenzo Vinciguerra confessed in 1984 to conducting a bombing in Peteano that had been previously blamed on the Red Brigade. He was Ordine Nuovo and the attack was performed with help from Italy's SID. He talked about an "entire mechanism" that was involved, what we now call Gladio. Prime Minister Andreotti openly admitted to Gladio's existence in 1990. The exact information about what happened and who funded it has never been fully documented. General Gerardo Serravalle publicly acknowledged at trial commanding it from 1971 to 1974. Bits and pieces got out over the years, but always very shadowy and slowly.

France's interior ministry and MOD have also acknowledged having a stay-behind force at times in the 20th century. Belgium eventually wrapped theirs into the SGR. Even the Nazi's had Werwolf (although it was 90% propaganda).

However, like the massacre at Brabant, we may never really know who did a certain thing and exactly why. Was it disillusioned Rijkswacht? Was it organized Rijkswacht? Was it related to roze balletten?

At the end of the day, I'm not sure that it matters what banner flies above a group of people that will engage in despicable acts in the name of justice, glory, or money. Whether it is done ostensibly in the name of 'Murica or Christ or family or a newfound savior, you're an outlier at best.
Exactly, thanks for telling me the name.
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Independent
04-26-2013, 08:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
They don't need an order, they're like minded
Ok, you obviously have no idea how the UK system works and therefore nothing to say here.

format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
this is not conspiracy per your definitions?
It's very interesting that Fisk and Chomsky stop short of Truthers, Sandy Hook, Boston conspiracies etc. It shows where the line is between 'independent viewpoint' and 'nutcase'.

Jedi, please tell us what is the main conspiracy theorists line on this? How do they explain the mass recruitment?
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جوري
04-26-2013, 08:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Ok, you obviously have no idea how the UK system works and therefore nothing to say here.
running out of useful things to impart as usual so resort to drivel and then down hill from there bait, insult, mock then take up webspace on useless drivel

format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
where the line is between 'independent viewpoint' and 'nutcase'.
glad you retracted your earlier opinion, but as stated all along, your opinion is worth zero to nill!

best,
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Independent
04-26-2013, 08:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
glad you retracted your earlier opinion
Not sure what you're on about here, I haven't retracted anything. Chomsky and Fisk believe in plenty of conspiracies, as do I, but not the 'A' list - 9/11, Sandy Hook etc. Governments all over the world can be devious and deceitful. But mass murder of your own citizens is a whole different ball game.

Still waiting on Jedi here. I've never known him turn down an opportunity to talk conspiracies. I'm genuinely interested to know what the story is.
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جوري
04-26-2013, 09:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
glad you retracted your earlier opinion Not sure what you're on about here,
anyone who has been following the thread can see through the transparency of your charade.
Good luck with all of that!

best,
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Independent
04-26-2013, 09:04 PM
This is funny - look what just came up on the BBC. Looks like you need to recruit a few more guys to the conspiracy crew:

New York police find 'part of 9/11 plane landing gear'

New York Police have found part of the landing gear of what is believed to be one of jets flown into the World Trade Center on 11 September 2001. The piece - including a clearly visible Boeing identification number - was found wedged between two New York City buildings, police said.

It was found on Wednesday by surveyors inspecting a lower Manhattan building. Nearly 3,000 people died in the terror attacks on New York, Washington and Pennsylvania.
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IAmZamzam
04-26-2013, 09:08 PM
You are accusing the UK and other western governments of collaborating in the mass murder of their own people. An 'order' from the US President is not enough

Oh it's not like I would put it past them by any means. Sociopaths of their sort would hardly even need a particularly compelling reason to murder their own people, let alone some Zionist conspiracy. It’s even a wee bit conceivable that they’re lacking enough in common sense for it not to matter all that much that they’d have a lot to lose by such a measure. But that’s exactly the problem: they’re lacking in common sense. Too much so to be the criminal masterminds necessary to keep something like this sufficiently under wraps. I feel much the same way on these sorts of issues that Dave Barry does when it comes to the idea that the U.S. is hiding evidence of aliens:

It’s not that I don’t believe the government would try to hide dead aliens: it’s that I don’t think the government would succeed, since every time the government tries to do anything secretly, as in the Iran-contra arms deal, it winds up displaying all the finesse and stealth of an exploding cigar at a state funeral. If there really were dead aliens, I figure, there would also be daily leaks about it from High Level Officials, and huge arguments among influential congresspersons over whose district the multimillion-dollar Federal Dead Alien storage facility would be located in. (“Dave Barry Is Not Making This Up”, page 41)

But I shouldn't even half-joke because then I might end up getting accused of retracting my own statements as well.
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Independent
04-26-2013, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
But that’s exactly the problem: they’re lacking in common sense. Too much so to be the criminal masterminds necessary to keep something like this sufficiently under wraps.
I totally agree, this is way too hard even for geniuses.

format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Oh it's not like I would put it past them by any means
The trouble is, for this theory, you don't just need one Prime Minister, you need all of them.
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جوري
04-26-2013, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
You are accusing the UK and other western governments of collaborating in the mass murder of their own people. An 'order' from the US President is not enough
Indy here can create the scenario of his choosing and offer the replies of his choosing -- You're also free to build on his faulty premise and ever evolving creations as you go along.. of course not free to project them, but we can only shrug our shoulders in mild amusement truly.. not sure where to classify this delusion/grandiosity/schizoid behavior, incoherence on the five axis so we'll just give him a GAF score of 12 .. pretty much sums up the long & short of it..
best,
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Independent
04-26-2013, 09:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
Indy here can create the scenario of his choosing and offer the replies of his choosing -- You're also free to build on his faulty premise and ever evolving creations as you go along.. of course not free to project them, but we can only shrug our shoulders in mild amusement truly.. not sure where to classify this delusion/grandiosity/schizoid behavior, incoherence on the five axis so we'll just give him a GAF score of 12 .. pretty much sums up the long & short of it..
I'd like to reply to this just on principle but it contains no information. Come on Jedi!
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جوري
04-26-2013, 09:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
I'd like to reply to this just on principle but it contains no information
Echoes back your nothing with insight to your psyche.


best,
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جوري
04-26-2013, 09:46 PM
Get on the Israeli page people..
It can slap them in the face and kick them in the ass and some here still don't get it!

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Pygoscelis
04-27-2013, 12:33 AM
This doesn't make much sense as a false flag operation. Nor does it make a whole lot of sense as a terrorist attack. It didn't come with a political message and it didn't galvanize the public against a bogeyman foe anymore than they already were. I think this one may just be a couple crazy anarchists who just wanted to blow stuff up.
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faithandpeace
04-27-2013, 12:39 AM
After the Boston bombings people ask, "Why don't Muslims speak out against terrorism?" We do. Muslims speak out about the terrorism done against civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan by the U.S. government, terrorism against civilians in Gaza by the Israeli government, terrorism against civilians in Syria, and decades of terrorism against Muslims throughout the Islamic world by totalitarian regimes created, backed, supported, and installed by the United States government. But apparently those of us who do speak out against evil in this world are considered to have become "radicalized." Because apparently sitting mindlessly in front of reality television in mental oblivion unconcerned about real issues is what we are told is normal. It is very sad regarding the current state of affairs. And Allah knows best.
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جوري
04-27-2013, 12:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This doesn't make much sense as a false flag operation. Nor does it make a whole lot of sense as a terrorist attack. It didn't come with a political message and it didn't galvanize the public against a bogeyman foe anymore than they already were. I think this one may just be a couple crazy anarchists who just wanted to blow stuff up.
per the previous post by Sr. Islamica a couple of laws were passed and martial law implimented -- it is just a drill for future full implementation of martial law. It is the transformation of the U.S into the police state..
happened before nothing is new here save for history repeating itself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reichstag_fire

there's nothing at all 'Islamic' about those boys in fact they look like a couple of hippies who like to party hardy!
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جوري
04-27-2013, 12:42 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by faithandpeace
After the Boston bombings people ask, "Why don't Muslims speak out against terrorism?" We do. Muslims speak out about the terrorism done against civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan by the U.S. government, terrorism against civilians in Gaza by the Israeli government, terrorism against civilians in Syria, and decades of terrorism against Muslims throughout the Islamic world by totalitarian regimes created, backed, supported, and installed by the United States government. But apparently those of us who do speak out against evil in this world are considered to have become "radicalized." Because apparently sitting mindlessly in front of reality television in mental oblivion unconcerned about real issues is what we are told is normal. It is very sad regarding the current state of affairs. And Allah knows best.
I really do wonder if the average american is as dumb as all that.. I have spoken with very blue collar workers who were on to all of this.. so I am not sure people are as dumb as the govt. and media hope for them to be.. but you never know maybe there's just clusters of idiots in certain places more than others.
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faithandpeace
04-27-2013, 01:02 AM
The agenda is simple: perpetuate a culture of fear. When people are scared they are easier to control. The Boston attack and today's 9/11 debris (by a mosque of all places) discovery are social conditioning exercises.
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جوري
04-27-2013, 01:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by faithandpeace
(by a mosque of all places)
:haha: you should have heard the news today on the radio I heard it while driving ..
no comment really beyond that- I was wondering if they just push to see what they can get away with and they get away with everything. Honestly if they'd said it was in a dumpster or lodged between buildings or in someone's basement it would have had slight more credibility but what perfect comedic timing and perfect comedic site. This is concocted by the same intelligent creature who came up with the invincible saudi passport story!

:w:
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جوري
04-27-2013, 03:01 AM


Another reason if you're young & Muslim and male that you'd better get married in a hurry. Fed govt. seems to like to target bitter loners for funny underwear plots.. and if you'll play along then at least make sure the underwear is stylish (it is gonna be seen by everyone) and let's face it, they don't have the imagination for new scenarios .. it is always going to repeat on us!


'
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Independent
04-27-2013, 09:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
Honestly if they'd said it was in a dumpster or lodged between buildings or in someone's basement it would have had slight more credibility but what perfect comedic timing and perfect comedic site
Wrong again! That's exactly where the wreckage was found - wedged in a narrow gap 18in wide between two buildings. In fact they have been finding occasional wreckage in the area ever since 9/11.

It's also incorrect to say that this was found near a mosque. It is near the site of a proposed mosque - for the simple reason that this is the Twin Towers site, and (as you must know) there is an application to build a mosque here. For that reason, whenever they find wreckage, it's bound to be 'near a mosque' as the gossip goes.
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islamica
04-27-2013, 09:44 AM
Brasscheck TV




What we've learned from Boston:


1. That white backpacks turn black when the FBI needs a suspect in a case



2. That clever terrorists disguise themselves as dope smoking slackers who don't have a religious or political bone in their bodies

3. That you can train yourself in bomb making and combat handgun skills by reading the Internet without even the slightest hint of any visible real world practice

4. That the safest way to capture dangerous criminals is to broadcast the fact you are looking for them rather than to simply go to the address where you've already visited with them before and pick them up

5. That when one criminal is in the loose, it justifies the shutting down of an entire city, entering anyone's home without a warrant and sticking guns in their faces

6. That "hating America's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan" is something that terrorists do.

7. That anyone not born or descended from people born north of the 50 North latitude in Western Europe are bat **** crazy and not to be trusted (and we're not entire sure about those Scandinavians either.)


Have I left anything out?
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titus
04-27-2013, 04:20 PM
I haven't been here in a while so I thought I would drop by.

I made a couple of predictions before I did. One was that there would be a conspiracy theory thread about the Boston bombings ---. Looks like I was right on both counts.

Independent, I think the fun will come later. You should bookmark this thread so that in a year you can look it up again. Because new facts will come out and the conspiracy theorists will have to totally change what they are saying. What they claim a year from now will be completely different than what they claim now, yet they will still continue to cling to any random "fact" they find to support it.

Such theories are not based on people looking at facts and then coming to a conclusion. They are based on coming to a conclusion and then creating facts (and conveniently ignoring others) in order to "prove" their conclusion.

I also love the baseless accusations that are made with no proof but also no way of disproving them. It makes the people feel like they are making an intelligent point when in fact they are not. (this was all practice for imposing national martial law? Really?) It's like those people that claim that the world leaders are all really lizards disguised as humans. It's so ridiculous that you can't believe people would fall for it, yet you really don't have an answer when they ask you to disprove it.

And just for some fun:

2. That clever terrorists disguise themselves as dope smoking slackers who don't have a religious or political bone in their bodies
Yes, because any true Muslim bomber would act how? And let's ignore the hundreds of Muslim witnesses that saw one of the brothers get reprimanded multiple times in his mosque for being so outspoken about his religious disagreements with the Iman, even to the point of getting kicked out. I guess all those Muslims are in on the conspiracy too?

3. That you can train yourself in bomb making and combat handgun skills by reading the Internet without even the slightest hint of any visible real world practice
Yes, you can learn to make a bomb on the internet.

Combat handgun skills? What are you talking about?

4. That the safest way to capture dangerous criminals is to broadcast the fact you are looking for them rather than to simply go to the address where you've already visited with them before and pick them up
When they first posted the photos they did not know who they were. Part of the reason for releasing the photos was because they needed them identified. I am sure they did go visit their residence in addition to many other places, but if they are not there then it sure helps to have a few million people keeping an eye out for them.

5. That when one criminal is in the loose, it justifies the shutting down of an entire city, entering anyone's home without a warrant and sticking guns in their faces
Do you have any evidence this happened? I am unaware of any searches without permission or a warrant, nor am I aware of them entering anyone's house without a warrant and sticking a gun in their face.

6. That "hating America's wars in Iraq and Afghanistan" is something that terrorists do.
Are you insinuating that there are Muslims that would do this yet be for the wars in Iraq in Afghanistan? That's absurd don't you think?
Reply

جوري
04-27-2013, 04:57 PM


this was flagged as offensive by youtube and it won't be there for long so see it now before it is removed or save it for future reference.

:w:
Reply

~Zaria~
04-27-2013, 04:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus


When they first posted the photos they did not know who they were. Part of the reason for releasing the photos was because they needed them identified. I am sure they did go visit their residence in addition to many other places, but if they are not there then it sure helps to have a few million people keeping an eye out for them.
Really?

The FBI have been in contact with these brothers for YEARS.



format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Do you have any evidence this happened? I am unaware of any searches without permission or a warrant, nor am I aware of them entering anyone's house without a warrant and sticking a gun in their face.





You dont need to watch the entire vid - just from 1:40 - 2:14 to see for yourself.

Also, can you explain how the elder brother actually got killed?
There is actual footage of him being naked and hand-cuffed, and led away, surrounded by armed forces.
Are we really to believe that his brother ran him over and killed him in cold blood thereafter? (without running over anyone else??)


Whether the Boston bombing is another false flag cannot be said with absolute certainty at this stage.
Allah (subhanawatáala) knows best in this regard.

BUT: if you cannot see the MANY problems with this story, then you are simply chosing to keep your eyes closed.
The rest of the world (a growing number) have chosen to wake up instead....
Reply

Jedi_Mindset
04-27-2013, 06:33 PM
http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2013/04...ing-world-war/
Reply

titus
04-27-2013, 09:56 PM
You dont need to watch the entire vid - just from 1:40 - 2:14 to see for yourself.
I see some video but no context. I do not deny that it may have happened, but I have yet to hear of any illegal searches or sweeps.

As for the older brothers death I have seen nothing to disprove the account given about him being run over. We shall see if the younger brother denies it or gives a different story. You also have to believe that every witness to those events were a part of the conspiracy, so if the conspiracy is true the number of people that have to be involved in it is creeping into the thousands.

The FBI have been in contact with these brothers for YEARS.
They interviewed him a long time ago and came to the conclusion he wasn't a threat. That is a far cry from being able to see the pictures of him with a cap on and positively identify him.

And if it were a conspiracy don't you think it would be stupid as hell for them to post his picture and identity before they captured him? Wouldn't it have been much smarter to have killed him and then say they killed the guy who did it in a gun fight afterwards? The fact that they publicized his picture actually points away from a conspiracy, not towards it. Identifying the patsy when he is still out in public would just be idiocy.
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faithandpeace
04-27-2013, 10:57 PM
What I am wondering is why non-Muslims (who have demonstrated zero interest in embracing Islam) come here to an Islamic discussion board to argue with Muslims about topics such as the Boston attacks that are having a negative impact on Islam and making life more difficult for Muslims. It is like we are now being attacked in our own space!
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IAmZamzam
04-27-2013, 11:08 PM
Why, faithandpeace? Because scorn is (to put it admittedly a bit simplistically) a sort of combination of arrogance and anger, and both of these things have a way of slowly swelling up inside you like a balloon does until it bursts--anger because it needs to be released lest you feel yourself to be powerless, and arrogance because it needs to be expressed lest it be the other guy thinking that of you. But I'm probably making it sound like some huge, dramatic process whereas more often than not it's at least half subconscious, if not fully so.
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جوري
04-28-2013, 12:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by faithandpeace
It is like we are now being attacked in our own space!
Right on sis.. enough their ugliness of the world out there, must we also embrace their BS in this place?

[picture removed]

None of them of course speak of events such as this.. no this is deserved, the genocide of Muslims is AOK.. you get a pressure cooker (undoubtedly cooked by the U.S itself) and then whole world is in mourning.. they're so full of it and they can shove it!
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islamica
04-28-2013, 02:28 AM
No Janaza for the bomber

CAIRO – The funeral of one of the Boston attackers is posing a new challenge for the Muslim community as several mosques are shying away from conducting the service.

"I would not be willing to do a funeral for him," Imam Talal Eid of the Islamic Institute of Boston, told Huffington Post. "This is a person who deliberately killed people."

Tamerlan Tsarnaev, 26, died Friday in a shootout with police over his alleged involvement in a twin bombing in Boston that killed three people and injured scores.

But several mosques have reportedly refused to conduct the funeral service for the dead attacker. Eid, whose group arranges funeral prayers and burials in Boston, believes that the attacker Tamerlan Tsarnaev is no longer a Muslim after carrying out his attack.

"There is no room for him as a Muslim. He already left the fold of Islam by doing that," he said. "In the Qur'an it says those who will kill innocent people, they will dwell in the hellfire."

Suhaib Webb, the imam of the Islamic Society of Boston Culture Center, also feels unease at conducting the funeral service for the attacker. "I don't think I could ethically lead a prayer for him," he said. "But I would not stop people from praying upon him."

Several mosque leaders said they would first discuss the issue of holding the funeral service for the Boston bomber if contacted.

"We have not discussed it," said a representative from Al-Marhama, an organization that shares space with the Boston Culture Center.
A similar position is taken by Masjid Al-Hoda in Kingston.

"Nobody has asked me, nobody has called me," said a man who answered the phone at the mosque.

Abdula Hameed, the imam of Masjid Al-Kareem in Providence, has the same view on the funeral. "I'd have to talk to our board members," he said.

Islam calls for respecting human beings whether alive or dead. A Muslim’s dead body should be immediately taken to a mortuary for washing and preparation. Two or three adult Muslims should wash the body and then put on the shroud (kafan). Before the burial, the funeral prayer should be done. The burial should be done as soon as possible. It is makruh (reprehensible) to delay the burial of the dead.

Restrictions

But some mosque officials opine the bomber should get the funeral service regardless of his action.

"We have to confirm if (Tamerlan) was a Muslim," Imam Ikram ul Haq, of Masjid Al-Islam North Smithfield, told Huffington Post.

"If that was confirmed through reliable sources, that he lived a Muslim and died as one, then we (would be allowed) to do a funeral for that person."
Imam Webb agrees. "He should be buried according to the religious tradition he adheres to," he said. "His case is with God. We can judge him as best we can according to the savage and insane actions he has done, but in the end, his soul is going to be brought before God."

But the prominent imam believes that Islamic teachings still place restrictions on the funeral service for the attacker.

"In fiqh (Islamic jurisprudence), for somebody who has committed a major atrocity, it is recommended that the imam does not pray over him, but that someone else does," he said. "It's meant to somehow symbolize that there is some grieving with the victims of the person's actions.

"In Islam, if someone is alive and has committed a crime, their opportunity to repent is open until they die," Webb said, referring to the bomber's brother, who is being treated at a Boston hospital after being injured in a shootout with the police. "We hope this man would be guided first of all to help the investigation and seek the forgiveness of family members and all people he has harmed."

(Huffington Post)


----

How sad is that? these "Imaams" are denying a Muslim the janaza in order please their kuffar society. So much for innocent till proven guilty....
Reply

جوري
04-28-2013, 02:37 AM
sob7an Allah no innocent until proven guilty anymore.. We're all guilty because they say we're!
btw it is one of the three things that :Allah::swt: hates for us I wish I could find the hadith.. which is to base our judgement on qeel wa qal
'This was said and that was said'
Reply

جوري
04-28-2013, 04:06 AM




Please don't
forget to:





March 31, 2013 - Ex-CNN reporter Amber Lyon revealed that during her work for the channel she received orders to send false news and exclude some others which the US administration did not favor with the aim to create a public opinion in favor of launching an aggression on Iran and Syria.

Lyon was quoted by the Slovak main news website as saying that the mainstream US media outlets intentionally work to create a propaganda against Iran to garner public opinion's support for a military invasion against it.

She revealed that the scenario used before launching the war on Iraq is being prepared to be repeated where Iran and Syria are now being subject to constant 'demonization'.

The former reporter clarified that the CNN channel manipulates and fabricates news and follows selectiveness when broadcasting news, stressing that the Channel receives money from the U.S. government and other countries' governments in exchange for news content.


Sources and more information:

Former CNN Reporter Amber Lyon should demonize Syria & Iran


Read more: http://www.disclose.tv/news/ExCNN_Re...#ixzz2RjAmQgwP
Reply

titus
04-28-2013, 07:31 AM
Right on sis.. enough their ugliness of the world out there, must we also embrace their BS in this place?
If you want to exclude non-Muslims then have them change the rules. If you want to reduce the ugliness on these boards then edit your posts.

I see no hatred here from the non-Muslims towards Muslims. I do see lots of hatred from some of the Muslim posters though.

You may not like what we say, but I challenge you to find anything written by myself, Independent or any of the other non-Muslims that is anti-Muslim or "ugly" towards Islam.
Reply

Jedi_Mindset
04-28-2013, 11:31 AM
9/11, the JFK Assassination, and the Oklahoma City Bombing as a Strategy of Tension


Scholar and former diplomat Peter Dale Scott compares the events of September 11, the JFK assassination and the Oklahoma City bombing. He exposes the existence and continuity of a "deep state" behind the facade.

Introduction: Structural Deep Events and the Strategy of Tension in ItalyFrom an American standpoint, it is easy to see clearly how Italian history was systematically destabilized in the second half of the 20th century, by a series of what I call structural deep events. I have defined these as "events, like the JFK assassination, the Watergate break-in, or 9/11, which violate the … social structure, have a major impact on … society, repeatedly involve law-breaking or violence, and in many cases proceed from an unknown dark force." [1]



Piazza Fontana bombing
, Bologna bombing
The examples in Italy, well known to Italians, include the Piazza Fontana bombing of 1969, the Piazza della Loggia bombing of 1974, and the Bologna railway bombing of 1980. These bombings, in which over one hundred civilians were killed and many more wounded, were attributed at the time to marginal left-wing elements of society. However, thanks chiefly to a series of investigations and judicial proceedings, it is now clearly established that the bombings were the work of right-wing elements in collusion with Italian military intelligence, as part of an on-going "strategy of tension" to discredit the Italian left, encourage support for a corrupt status quo, and perhaps move beyond democracy altogether. [2] As one of the conspirators, Vincenzo Vinciguerra, later stated, "The December 1969 explosion was supposed to be the detonator which would have convinced the political and military authorities to declare a state of emergency." [3]Vinciguerra also revealed that he and others had also been members of a paramilitary "stay-behind" network originally organized at the end of World War II by the CIA and NATO as "Operation Gladio."In 1984, questioned by judges about the 1980 Bologna station bombing, Vinciguerra said: "With the massacre of Peteano, and with all those that have followed, the knowledge should by now be clear that there existed a real live structure, occult and hidden, with the capacity of giving a strategic direction to the outrages...[it] lies within the state itself...There exists in Italy a secret force parallel to the armed forces, composed of civilians and military men, in an anti-Soviet capacity that is, to organise a resistance on Italian soil against a Russian army...A secret organisation, a super-organisation with a network of communications, arms and explosives, and men trained to use them...A super-organisation which, lacking a Soviet military invasion which might not happen, took up the task, on Nato’s behalf, of preventing a slip to the left in the political balance of the country. This they did, with the assistance of the official secret services and the political and military forces. [4]Gladio connections to sustained false-flag violence, again involving NATO and the CIA, were subsequently revealed in other countries, notably Belgium and Turkey. [5]The original purpose of Gladio was to consolidate resistance in the event of a Soviet takeover. But many of the senior Italians involved in the bombings implicated the CIA and NATO in them as well:General Vito Miceli, the Italian head of military intelligence, after his arrest in 1974 on a charge of conspiring to overthrow the government, testified "that the incriminated organization, … was formed under a secret agreement with the United States and within the framework of NATO." Former Italian defense minister Paulo Taviani told Magistrate Casson during a 1990 investigation "that during his time in office (1955-58), the Italian secret services were bossed and financed by ‘the boys in Via Veneto’—i.e. the CIA agents in the U.S. Embassy in the heart of Rome." In 2000 "an Italian secret service general [Giandelio Maletti] said . . . that the CIA gave its tacit approval to a series of bombings in Italy in the 1970s to sow instability and keep communists from taking power. . . . ‘The CIA wanted, through the birth of an extreme nationalism and the contribution of the far right, particularly Ordine Nuovo, to stop (Italy) sliding to the left,’ he said." [6]Daniele Ganser, in his important book Nato’s Secret Armies, has endorsed a Spanish report that in 1990 NATO Secretary General Manfred Wörner (a German politician and diplomat) secretly confirmed that NATO’s headquarters, SHAPE, was indeed responsible:The Supreme Headquarters Allied Powers Europe (SHAPE), directing organ of NATO’s military apparatus, coordinated the actions of Gladio, according to the revelations of Gladio Secretary-General Manfred Wörner during a reunion with the NATO ambassadors of the 16 allied nations. [7]Extrapolating from such testimony, Ola Tunander has compared the strategy of tension in Italy, with its false-flag bombing attacks, to "what the Turkish military elite might describe as the correction of the course of democracy by the ‘deep state’ [a Turkish term]." [8]


Strategy of Tension
But I believe it would be too simplistic an analysis to blame the Italian strategy of tension exclusively on Vinciguerra’s "super-organisation which… took up the task [of false-flag bombings], on Nato’s behalf." There appear to have been other directing forces besides NATO and those elements Vinciguerra was aware of through Italian military intelligence (the SID, later SISMI). It is important to recall that the Italian trials of those convicted for the 1980 Bologna bombing implicated not only Vinciguerra, SISMI, and Gladio, but also elements of the Italian mafia (the Banda della Magliana) and the Italian Masonic Lodge Propaganda-Due (P-2), with links to criminal bankers and the Vatican. [9]In short, if we suggest that something like the Turkish deep state was involved in the Italian strategy of tension, this does not suggest a solution to the Italian mystery, so much as a zone, or interlocking network, for further research.Has a Strategy of Tension Been Exercised in America?Gladio connections to sustained false-flag violence, again involving NATO and the CIA, were subsequently established in other countries, notably Belgium and Turkey. [10] I wish to propose that America, as well as Europe, has also suffered from a similar series of false-flag structural deep events, including bombings, that have, in conformity with the same strategy of tension, systematically moved America into its current condition, a state of emergency.


Nato headquarters
Among the false flag structural deep events I wish to consider today areThe John F. Kennedy assassination of 1963, or 11/22, which led to the CIA’s Operation Chaos against the anti-Vietnam War movement. (11/22 was clearly a deep event: many documents in the area of Lee Harvey Oswald’s relations to CIA operations are still being withheld, despite statutory and court orders to release them. [11]The Robert Kennedy assassination of 1968, followed immediately by emergency legislation which led to state-sponsored violence at the 1968 Democratic Party Convention.The 1993 first World Trade Center bombing and the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing, which led to the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996.9/11 and the subsequent false flag anthrax attacks of 2001, which led to the imposition of Continuity of Government (COG) measures, the Patriot Act, and the proclamation, on September 14, 2001, of a State of Emergency which remains in effect. (In September 2012 it was once again renewed for another year). [12]These structural deep events have had a common and cumulative result: the erosion of public or constitutional power, and its progressive replacement by unconstrained repressive force. I have argued elsewhere that1) as in Italy, all of these events were blamed on marginal left-wing elements, but in fact involved elements inside America’s covert intelligence agencies, along with their shadowy underworld connections.2) some of these structural deep events bore a relationship to the ongoing secret planning - known in the Pentagon as the Doomsday Project - for Continuity of Government (or COG) in an emergency, which entailed its own secret communications network, and arrangements for what (in the Oliver North Hearings) was called "suspension of the American Constitution."3) in every case, the official response to the deep event was a set of new repressive measures, usually in the form of legislation.4) cumulatively, these events suggest the on-going presence in America of what I have called a "dark force" or "deep state," analogous to what Vinciguerra described in Italy as a "secret force…occult and hidden, with the capacity of giving a strategic direction to the [successive] outrages." [13]The Oklahoma City Bombing (4/19) and 9/11Recently I viewed for a film, "A Noble Lie," about the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing. [14] This gave me a chance, for the first time, to test these hypotheses against the case of Oklahoma City on April 19, 1995, or what I shall call 4/19. More than I could have anticipated, 4/19 fit into and strengthened this analysis.




Oklahoma City Bombing
The film "A Noble Lie," itself points to some striking similarities between the events of 1995 and of 2001. The most obvious is the alleged destruction of a steel-reinforced building by external forces (a truck bomb in the case of the Murrah Building in 1995, flying debris in the case of Building Seven in 2001). Experts in both cases have asserted that the buildings in fact could only have been brought down by cutting charges placed directly against the sustaining columns inside the building. Here for example is a report to Congress from General Benton K. Partin, a retired U.S. Air Force Brigadier General and expert on non-nuclear weapons devices:When I first saw the pictures of the truck-bomb’s asymmetrical damage to the Federal Building, my immediate reaction was that the pattern of damage would have been technically impossible without supplementing demolition charges at some of the reinforcing concrete column bases…. For a simplistic blast truck-bomb, of the size and composition reported, to be able to reach out on the order of 60 feet and collapse a reinforced column base the size of column A-7 is beyond credulity. [15]There is now a broad and growing consensus among architects, engineers, and other experts, that the three buildings which collapsed on 9/11 in the World Trade Center were also most probably destroyed by controlled demolition charges. [16]Another important similarity was the legal consequence of most of these events: the response to Oklahoma City was the Antiterrorism and Effective Death Penalty Act of 1996, while the response to 9/11 was the first implementation of COG and the passage (after a false flag anthrax attack) of the Patriot Act. "A Noble Lie" focuses on the domestic consequences of the Antiterrorism Act, and indeed it did, like the Patriot Act after it, provide for significant restrictions on the right of habeas corpus as the courts had interpreted it. In other words, both acts provided pretexts for implementation of the proposals for warrantless detention that had been a central focus of COG planning in the 1980s with Oliver North. This fit into a larger ongoing pattern of the progressive restriction of our constitutional rights by unrestrained coercive power — a pattern that I will trace back to the assassination of John F. Kennedy in 1963.But there were important foreign consequences of the 1996 Antiterrorism Act as well, in particular Section 328, which amended the Foreign Assistance Act to bolsterassistance in the form of arms and ammunition to certain specific countries, for the purpose of fighting terrorism. [17] This in turn led in 1997 to the creation of secret "Eyes Only" liaison agreement between the CIA’s Counter-Terrorism Center (CTC) and Saudi Arabia, followed by a subsequent CIA agreement in 1999 with Uzbekistan (i.e. two of the most secretive and repressive regimes in the world today). [18]I have argued that these secret liaison agreements - with Saudi Arabia and Uzbekistan - may have provided the cover for secret CIA withholding of information before 9/11 about the designated 9/11 culprits al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar. [19] Thus, if my analysis of the CIA’s withholding in 2000-2001 is accurate, then 4/19 in 1995 did not just exhibit similarities to 9/11: it was a significant part of the build-up which allowed this withholding to occur, and also 9/11 itself.Increases in Repressive Power After Deep EventsThat 4/19 in 1995 had repressive legal consequences links it both to 9/11 in 2001 and also to 11/22 in 1963, after which the Warren Commission used the JFK assassination to increase CIA surveillance of Americans. As I wrote in Deep Politics, this was the result ofthe Warren Commission’s controversial recommendations that the Secret Service’s domestic surveillance responsibilities be increased (WR 25-26). Somewhat illogically, the Warren Report concluded both that Oswald acted alone (WR 22), . . . and also that the Secret Service, FBI, CIA, should coordinate more closely the surveillance of organized groups (WR 463). In particular, it recommended that the Secret Service acquire a computerized data bank compatible with that already developed by the CIA. [20]In the ensuing Vietnam War this involvement of the CIA in domestic surveillance led to the CIA’s Operation Chaos, an investigation of the antiwar movement in which the CIA, despite its Charter’s restrictions on domestic spying,amassed thousands of files on Americans, indexed hundreds of thousands of Americans into its computer records, and disseminated thousands of reports about Americans to the FBI and other government offices. Some of the information concerned the domestic activity of those Americans. [21]The pattern of increased repression would repeat itself four years later in 1968 after the assassination of Martin Luther King, in response to which two US Army brigades were (until 1971) stationed on permanent standby in the United States, as part of Operation GARDEN PLOT to deal with domestic unrest. [22]The pattern was repeated again withthe assassination of Robert Kennedy. In the twenty-four hours between Bobby’s shooting and his death, Congress hurriedly passed a statute— drafted well in advance (like the Tonkin Gulf Resolution of 1964 and the Patriot Act of 2001) — that still further augmented the secret powers given to the Secret Service in the name of protecting presidential candidates. [23]This was not a trivial or benign change: from this swiftly considered act, passed under Johnson, flowed some of the worst excesses of the Nixon presidency. [24] The change also contributed to the chaos and violence at the Chicago Democratic Convention of 1968. Army intelligence surveillance agents, seconded to the Secret Service, were present both inside and outside the convention hall. Some of them equipped the so-called "Legion of Justice thugs whom the Chicago Red Squad turned loose on local anti-war groups." [25]Other Similarities between Dallas in 1963 and Oklahoma City in 1995The repressive consequences after 11/22 in 1963, and after 4/19 in 1995, are linked to other shared features between the two events. Almost immediately after 11/22 there were reports from both inside and outside government, suggesting that Oswald had killed the president as part of an international Communist conspiracy.In Deep Politics and the Death of JFK, I called these "Phase-One" reports, part ofa two-fold process. Phase One put forward the phantom of an international plot, linking Oswald to the USSR, to Cuba, or to both countries together. This phantom was used to invoke the danger of a possible nuclear confrontation, which induced Chief Justice Earl Warren and other political notables to accept Phase Two, the equally false (but less dangerous) hypothesis that Oswald killed the President all by himself. …. [T]he Phase-One story… was first promoted and then defused by the CIA. Michael Beschloss has revealed that, at 9:20 AM on the morning of November 23, CIA Director John McCone briefed the new President. In Beschloss’ words: "The CIA had information on foreign connections to the alleged assassin, Lee Harvey Oswald, which suggested to LBJ that Kennedy may have been murdered by an international conspiracy." [26]To this day both Phase-One and Phase-Two stories have dominated the treatment of 11/22 in the governing media, to the virtual exclusion of non-establishment analyses treating 11/22 as a deep event.Many have forgotten that there was a Phase One-Phase Two process with respect to 4/19 as well. Both immediately and thereafter there were a number of reports linking McVeigh and Nichols to Iraqis and other Middle Easterners, including Ramzi Yousef, the fugitive bomber in the 1993 World Trade Center bombing (which also used an ammonium nitrate (ANFO) bomb in a Ryder rental truck.) [27] Both Clinton and his Counterterrorism Coordinator, Richard Clarke, have confirmed that some of these stories were discussed at a meeting of the Counterterrorism Security Group on the day of 4/19. [28] Both men also claim to have dismissed them in favor of a low-grade Phase Two local conspiracy led by the two designated culprits: Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. But reports of Middle Eastern involvement, sometimes attributed to sources inside government, continued to appear in the governing media, including CBS, NBC, and the New York Times. [29]


First World Trade Center bombing of 1993
Meanwhile, signs of a local Iraqi conspiracy were industriously pursued by an Oklahoma City NBC reporter, Jayna Davis, and collected in her book The Third Terrorist. Her Phase-One evidence was centered on an all-points-bulletin initial search, quickly suppressed, for an unnamed John Doe #2. Her research was subsequently endorsed in a Congressional Report by Republican Congressman Dana Rohrabacher. [30]Moreover Richard Clarke has written that the Oklahoma City bombing was followed by a spate of new internal Presidential Decision Directives or PDDs (in addition to the Antiterrorism Act), which were drafted by himself. One of these addressed a security problem in response to the Oklahoma City bombing, and another conferred new counterterrorism powers on himself, including his new title as National Coordinator for Security, Infrastructure Protection, and Counter-terrorism. Two (PDD 62 and especially PDD 67) dealt with what he calls a more "robust system of command and control" for "our Continuity of Government program," which in his words "had been allowed to fall apart when the threat of a Soviet nuclear attack had gone away." [31]These words recall Tim Weiner’s report of April 1994 in theNew York Times that in the post-Soviet Clinton era, "the Doomsday Project, as it was known" was scheduled to be scaled way back, because "the nuclear tensions" of the Soviet era had faded away. [32] In other words Clinton had planned to scale back the Doomsday Project (which was governed by a secret extra-governmental committee including Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney, then both not in government); but Richard Clarke used Oklahoma City to save the Doomsday Project, make it more robust and place it under his own control.According to author Andrew Cockburn, a new target was found:Although the exercises continued, still budgeted at over $200 million a year in the Clinton era, the vanished Soviets were now replaced by terrorists. . . . There were other changes, too. In earlier times the specialists selected to run the "shadow government" had been drawn from across the political spectrum, Democrats and Republicans alike. But now, down in the bunkers, Rumsfeld [and Cheney] found [themselves] in politically congenial company, the players’ roster being filled almost exclusively with Republican hawks. "It was one way for these people to stay in touch. They’d meet, do the exercise, but also sit around and castigate the Clinton administration in the most extreme way," a former Pentagon official with direct knowledge of the phenomenon told me. "You could say this was a secret government-in-waiting." [33]Of course the fact that 4/19 was followed by a strengthening of COG does not of itself corroborate my thesis that COG planning has been a significant factor in the planning and execution of America’s structural deep events [34] However there were other recurring features in the picture I have presented of America’s structural deep events, and we do find these in the Oklahoma City story.Of these the most prominent is the importance in the official story of designated culprits who were very possibly government informants or double agents. [35] Perhaps the best documented recent example is the US Government’s use and protection of the senior al-Qaeda operative Ali Mohamed as a double agent inside al Qaeda; this protection allowed him to train some of the participants of the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993, and later help organize the 1998 U.S. Embassy bombing in Kenya. [36]In my 2008 book The War Conspiracy I discussed the possibility that both Lee Harvey Oswald and some of the Arabs designated in 9/11 (Ali Mohamed, al-Hazmi, al-Mihdhar) may in fact have been double agents working with a US Government agency, such as the FBI or Army Intelligence. [37] Others have suggested that at the very least Oswald was an FBI informant; and Lawrence Wright wrote in The New Yorker that, in withholding the names of al-Hazmi and al-Mihdhar from the FBI, "The CIA may also have been protecting an overseas operation and was afraid that the F.B.I. would expose it." [38]In this context I noted with great interest the contention in "A Noble Lie" that Timothy McVeigh, the prime designated culprit in 4/19, may also have been an informant or double agent working for the U.S. Army. [39] Of course this contention remains unproven, but the film provides some corroborative evidence

.The Oklahoma City Bombing and Operation PATCONWhat is certain is that McVeigh, like Oswald, al-Hazmi, and al-Mihdhar, was in a milieu of known informants and or double agents, who were part of an important secret operation. In the case of Oswald and the two Saudis, this suggests reasons for the U.S. Government’s on-going suppression of important facts about them, both before the crimes they are alleged to have committed, and ever since to the present day. [40]In 2005 John M. Berger, an excellent researcher, discovered that in the 1990s the FBI, in a major counterintelligence operation, codenamed PATCON for "Patriot-conspiracy," had been investigating McVeigh’s milieu of armed right-wingers — or what Berger calleda wildly diverse collection of racist, ultra-libertarian, right-wing and/or pro-gun activists and extremists who, over the years, have found common cause in their suspicion and fear of the federal government. The undercover agents met some of the most infamous names in the movement, but their work never led to a single arrest. When McVeigh walked through the middle of the investigation in 1993, he went unnoticed. [41]PATCON was particularly focused on a former asset of Oliver North’s illegal network to supply arms to the Nicaragua Contras: Tom Posey and his paramilitary group Civilian Material Assistance (CMA). In the 1980s, according to Paul de Armond, CMA had begun as "as an adjunct to the Alabama Ku Klux Klan." [42] Enrolled in the Contra supply effort by first the Defense Intelligence Agency and then Oliver North, CMA’s "volunteer" work in patrolling the Arizona border against incoming aliens persuaded then-Congressman John McCain to serve on its board. [43] But in PATCON’s eyes in the Post-Reagan era, "Posey was a notorious black market arms dealer, suspected of having contraband sources on more than one U.S. military base." [44]In both JFK and 9/11 it seems clear to me that the subsequent cover-ups derive from the fact that the respective plots were skillfully designed to piggy-back on authorized covert operations, in such a way as to ensure a subsequent cover-up. Berger’s important essay in Foreign Policy on PATCON does not suggest a connection between McVeigh’s plot and the FBI operation. However he notes deep in the essay that Dennis Mahon, an associate of McVeigh and another important target of PATCON,would go on to be a well-known figure in white supremacist circles and was convicted in February for the 2004 mail bombing of a state diversity official in Arizona. After his arrest in 2009, Mahon told his cellmate that he was "the number three anonymous person in the Oklahoma City bombing investigation."In other words, Mahon identified himself as John Doe #2.Berger, on his own Website Intelwire, has written that "Mahon has spoken of knowing McVeigh in the past," and has concluded that, "Based on those comments and other information, it is at least plausible that Mahon was involved in the [Oklahoma City] bombing. [45] Berger’s "other evidence" is the testimony of ATF informant Carol Howe, transmitted first by Jayna Davis and then by Congressman Rohrabacher, that before 4/19 "Mahon talked about targeting federal buildings for bombings. …[and] took three trips [with McVeigh’s contact Andre Strassmeir] to Oklahoma City." [46]Mahon has been characterized as a self-aggrandizing loose talker. However, it seems safe to say that we better understand the context of Oklahoma City after considering the new evidence relating to PATCON, a secret FBI operation from 1991 to 1993 then known only to insiders.



Was Oklahoma City "a Sting Gone Wrong"?
Although PATCON itself was officially terminated in 1993, we learn from its files that there were in fact a number of ongoing informants at Elohim City, Oklahoma very likely including not only Howe but also Strassmeir. [47] The Government’s lack of response to the reports they received of an intended bombing strengthens the hypothesis, voiced in the film "A Noble Lie," that the 4/19 plot was initially intended as a sting, the lethal result of which represented "a sting gone wrong."If so, this would increase the similarity between 4/19 and the first World Trade Center bombing in 1993. According to the official account, this was also a conspiracy penetrated by the FBI, also involving an ANFO bomb on a Ryder rental truck that was also later identified by its vehicle identification number (VIN) on a metal fragment. [48] In the 1993 bombing the New York Timeslater reported from tapes of interviews of the FBI’s informant with his FBI handler:Law-enforcement officials were told that terrorists were building a bomb that was eventually used to blow up the World Trade Center, and they planned to thwart the plotters by secretly substituting harmless powder for the explosives, an informer said after the blast.The informer was to have helped the plotters build the bomb and supply the fake powder, but the plan was called off by an F.B.I. supervisor who had other ideas about how the informer, Emad A. Salem, should be used, the informer said. [49]This Times story of the 2003 WTC bombing clearly describes a conspiracy that had been effectively penetrated by the FBI, which nonetheless, for whatever reason, reached its lethal conclusion. One such case of a penetrated operation "gone wrong" in 1993 might be attributed to confusion, bureaucratic incompetence, or the problems of determining when sufficient evidence had been gathered to justify arrests. A repeated catastrophe two years later raises the question whether the lethal outcome was not intended.Together with the example of inaction on the CIA’s prior knowledge of the alleged 9/11 hijackers, the three mass murders strengthen the claim to the International Criminal Court of Judge Ferdinando Imposimato, the Honorary President of Italy’s Supreme Court: that 9/11 was "a repeat of the CIA’s ’strategy of tension’ carried out in Italy" from the 1960s to the 1980s. [50] I appreciate that it will be difficult as well as painful for most Americans to contemplate that America’s own history, like that of Italy a half century ago, could have been systemically manipulated and destabilized by unknown forces. But the more research I do, the more I am convinced that something like Judge Imposimato’s verdict must be considered.Moreover, if the Italian analogy is applicable to the United States, then the judgment that "9/11 was "a repeat of the CIA’s ’strategy of tension’ carried out in Italy" raises a larger question about all the structural deep events we have considered, especially the bombings of 1993 and 1995. Were these all part of a single sustained strategy of tension? It is too early to tell. But at the very least the WTC bombings of 1993 and 2001 show suggestive signs of common origins - both outside government (the plotters Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and the informant Ali Mohammed) and possibly inside (as indicated by the overlapping, ongoing cover-ups of both). [51]In contrast, all of the structural deep events I have been discussing are predictably treated by the governing media as the work of marginal outsiders - by a "lone nut" like Oswald, or a "lone wolf" like Timothy McVeigh. The commonalities between these events I have presented suggest a different analysis: that insiders including intelligence officials and other government officers, as well as outsiders, including government agents and double agents, must be held responsible for repeatedly designing plots that, because of their interface with sanctioned intelligence operations, will not be revealed by government.My own analysis identifies these insiders as part of an on-going milieu, admittedly amorphous and unstructured, linking the secret networks in government to other powerful forces in our society, For want of a better phrase, I have labeled this milieu, reluctantly, as the "deep state." [52] But as I remarked earlier with respect to Italy, the term "deep state" is not offered as a solution to these unsolved crimes, but as a focus for further research.

An Alternative Analysis of Deep Events: State Crimes Against Democracy

Let me contrast my own analysis with those of two others. The first is the notion of a "secret government" put forward in an important PBS program in 1987 by Bill Moyers. [53] It rightly points to the dangerous rise of covert agencies, and above all the CIA, inside government since the National Security Act of 1947. And it analyzes the crimes of Iran-Contra in particular as an example of secret government escaping from the jurisdiction of the law and other restraints of the Constitution and public state.In the words of the Moyers showThe Secret Government is an interlocking network of official functionaries, spies, mercenaries, ex-generals, profiteers and superpatriots, who, for a variety of motives, operate outside the legitimate institutions of government.In other words, the show was pointing to the "Enterprise" used by North and his allies inside and outside the Executive Office Building to implement Iran-Contra and other policies that violated law and/or the directives of Congress. As I have shown elsewhere, North, implementing these policies, availed himself of the emergency antiterrorist network, codenamed Flashboard, that had been put together, at immense cost, by the Doomsday Project. [54] In so doing, he was "piggy-backing:" using the authorized secret network for an illicit, criminal program, outside of the network’s designated purpose.Such an analysis could be screened on PBS in 1987 because one part of the U.S. government at that time was at war with another - a war which set Casey at odds not only with Congress but even with senior officers in his own agency the CIA. [55] One can locate Moyers’ show as part of a series of insider leaks and governing media exposés of Oliver North’s off-the-books "Enterprise," which North (and behind him CIA director Casey) had used to violate official policies and laws. [56] In short Moyers’ challenge to Casey’s and North’s "warriors" suited the aims of the traditional CIA (and their usual backers, the "traders" on Wall Street). [57]Thus we should not be surprised that it had nothing to say about the role of North’s superior, Vice-President Bush, or about the stake of corporate interests in promoting CIA covert operations around the world (such as the much larger 1980s CIA operation in Afghanistan). Above all, it had not a word about North’s Doomsday Project planning to "suspend the U.S. Constitution," even though this did surface for an instant in the Iran-Contra Hearings. [58] By its silence about the Doomsday Project, the show failed to address the ongoing planning which, I believe, allowed for the fruition of COG plans in 9/11 and the Patriot Act. To sum up, the Moyers attack on the secret government was largely confined to what was already in the public record. It did not venture into deep politics.More recently the concept of State Crimes Against Democracy, or SCADs, has been proposed by Prof. Lance deHaven-Smith, and endorsed by some of my friends in the 9/11 Truth community, including Peter Phillips and Mickey Huff. By SCADs, Prof. deHaven-Smith means "concerted actions or inactions by government insiders intended to manipulate democratic processes and undermine popular sovereignty." [59]One great advantage of the SCAD hypothesis is that, unlike my own work, it has been discussed in academic journals, thus breaking a kind of sound barrier. But I have problems with the term "State Crimes." On the one hand I would claim that the State, or some segments of the state, is often the victim of deep events, as in 4/19. On the other I see the State as primarily a guarantor of democracy, not simply an enemy of it.I agree that some government insiders play an important role in these events, indeed, I have documented some of these in the preceding pages. But I find it misleading to pin the blame for the crime on the State alone. After all, if a bank insider opens the door to a group of bank robbers, what ensues (even if you choose to call it an "inside job") is unmistakably a robbery of the bank, not by it.SCAD analysis is far more useful and sophisticated than I can present it here, and I expect to continue to learn from those who pursue it. But it is not deep political analysis. DeHaven-Smith’s list of SCADs includes "the secret wars in Laos and Cambodia," two relevant policy decisions (rather than events) that we know came from the Oval Office; although covert at the time, and very arguably illegal, they were when exposed not at all mysterious and thus essentially not very deep.By positing SCADs as a struggle between the State on the one hand and democracy on the other, I believe this analysis oversimplifies both concepts, and underestimates (as Moyers did not) the internal contradictions within each. Democracy is after all a form of the state in which the people’s freedom and power is constitutionally guaranteed by the state (or what I call the public state). And at least one of deHaven-Smith’s SCADs - the JFK assassination - might more logically be considered a crimeagainst the state, rather than by it.Phillips and Hoff seem to recognize this difficulty: they drop the JFK assassination from their own list of SCADs. [60] But this artificially segregates the JFK assassination from other deep events, such as the Martin Luther King and Robert Kennedy assassinations, which I believe are parts of a common syndrome.In short I believe in the crucial importance of a distinction that SCAD analysis does not make - between the public state that is ostensibly dedicated to fostering the welfare, rights and upward power of the people, and that residue of unofficial powers inside and outside government, or what I have awkwardly called the deep state, that for a half century has been progressively eroding that upward or persuasive power, and replacing it with unrestricted, unconstitutional power (or violence) of its own.My final objection to SCAD analysis is practical. If the state is the author of these crimes, then the work of critics must be to mobilize public opinion against the state. This fits the libertarian politics of those who (like Alex Jones and other lovers of the Second Amendment) profoundly distrust the public US state in its entirety, and not just its covert agencies. Prof. DeHaven-Smith’s own analysis implicates not just covert intelligence agencies of the US Government but the government as a whole, and perhaps particularly the courts. (In support of this indictment, he is able to point to the Supreme Court’s unusual action, in 2000, of itself electing George W. Bush as president, by a vote of five to four.)But a strategy of attacking the state as a whole seems to me an example of defeatist politics. Here again we can be enlightened by the Italian strategy of tension, which is a tale of indiscriminate terror with a happier ending. The terror bombings ended after Bologna in 1980, thanks to a series of vigorous and courageous investigations by first journalists, then parliamentary commissions, and finally the courts (not least the court of Judge Imposimato himself, which investigated the murder of Italian premier Aldo Moro and the attempted assassination of Pope John Paul II). The victory of truth over violence did not come easily: journalists, parliamentarians, and at least one judge were themselves killed. And it was clearly a victory against one part of the state, which was achieved through the countervailing forces of other parts.The Italian example proves that the forces behind a strategy of tension are not invincible. They also suggest that, if the dark forces of the deep state are to be defeated, this will take the combined resources, not just of the people, but of those elements in government that can, eventually, be aroused in search of the truth.If this essay contributes to this purpose, it will be because others take up the line of inquiry I have indicated. I myself do not claim to understand the inner truth about these structural deep events. But I hope I have successfully indicated some of the directions which future investigations should pursue.

http://www.voltairenet.org/article178312.html

W
here is indy now?
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islamica
04-28-2013, 11:46 AM
Jedi bro, would mind sticking to the topic of the thread only. You can post all that stuff in another thread. I just don't want the mods to close this thread or for it to to be derailed by other stuff.
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Jedi_Mindset
04-28-2013, 12:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
Jedi bro, would mind sticking to the topic of the thread only. You can post all that stuff in another thread. I just don't want the mods to close this thread or for it to to be derailed by other stuff.
Ok i am sorry for that :)
Have deleted my first post but didnt delete the 2nd one as it kind of fits in this topic, just read it and you will know why.
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Naeema
04-28-2013, 12:50 PM
It is a small thing, but I think it is worth noting that "naked guy" as we in Boston called him was in the wrong place at the wrong time. He was ordered out of his car, ordered to strip (fear of concealed weapons), and breifly detained while it was determined that he was not involved in the car chase. He had a really bad day. Showing his photo again and again just adds to his humiliation.
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IAmZamzam
04-28-2013, 03:04 PM
I see no hatred here from the non-Muslims towards Muslims. I do see lots of hatred from some of the Muslim posters though.

You may not like what we say, but I challenge you to find anything written by myself, Independent or any of the other non-Muslims that is anti-Muslim or “ugly” towards Islam.


Oh nobody ever said that all of the Muslims on the board are sparkly clean in all of their behavior so kindly spare us the childish “I know you are but what am I?” evasions if you please. We’re all human and two wrongs don’t make a right. To call what you did hateful or Islamaphobic may be pushing it but all the same you seem to have come to the board, and to the thread, solely to mock people:

I haven’t been here in a while so I thought I would drop by. I made a couple of predictions before I did. One was that there would be a conspiracy theory thread about the Boston bombings—Looks like I was right on both counts. Independent, I think the fun will come later...I also love the baseless accusations that are made with no proof but also no way of disproving them. It makes the people feel like they are making an intelligent point when in fact they are not. (this was all practice for imposing national martial law? Really?) It's like those people that claim that the world leaders are all really lizards disguised as humans. It's so ridiculous that you can't believe people would fall for it, yet you really don't have an answer when they ask you to disprove it. And just for some fun....

I couldn’t help but notice that this post was edited by the administrator as well. I wonder how much nastier the original version was.
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~Zaria~
04-28-2013, 06:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I see some video but no context. I do not deny that it may have happened, but I have yet to hear of any illegal searches or sweeps.
What you have seen in that small segment of the video, is a scene of military, forcely removing residents from their homes without any warrant.
You may be sceptical whether this was in relation to the Boston saga (which is fine), but do realise that youtube has many more first hand accounts by the residents of Boston, who confirm the above.
Research for yourself.


format_quote Originally Posted by titus
As for the older brothers death I have seen nothing to disprove the account given about him being run over. We shall see if the younger brother denies it or gives a different story. You also have to believe that every witness to those events were a part of the conspiracy, so if the conspiracy is true the number of people that have to be involved in it is creeping into the thousands.
The naked man, seen to be hand-cuffed and led away by an ARMY, had been positively identified by his aunt and his mother.
Stangely enough, there is no video footage of the events leading to his death......isnt that amazing? Even though media/ reporters were on scene?
(Has anyone else seen this footage? Cos it doesnt seem to exist!)

I find it interesting that there are so many missing pieces to the actual events of that day.
e.g. Theres live aerial footage of the younger brother hiding in the boat.
But no footage of when he was shot? Apparently they are still not sure if he shot himself or was shot!?

Why did they kill him-- cries mother of Boston bombing suspects







format_quote Originally Posted by titus
They interviewed him a long time ago and came to the conclusion he wasn't a threat. That is a far cry from being able to see the pictures of him with a cap on and positively identify him.

According to his mum, the FBI had been in frequent contact with her sons over the years.
Before releasing their pics to the world, a simple check through their database of 'suspected muslim terroriosts' would have sufficed to positively identify them.
In fact, even when they were identified, the FBI did not immediately acknowledge their past with him. Why?
It was their parents, who brought this to light.


xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx


Brothers and sisters, we are simply here to provide both sides of the story, as far as we know best, and to highlight the problems with the current narrative of events.
If our visitors/ members do not wish to agree with this - this is ok.
It is their right to believe what the media feeds them, despite the many holes in their plot.
As it is our right to research for ourselves and form our own opinions.

It is very much like giving dawah.

We are only meant to deliver the message.
Whether or not they accept the message, is not in our hands and nor should it bring us down.

The truth will eventually prevail, in shaa Allah.

We have Allah (subhanawataa'la) on our side - which is all that we need.


:wasalam:
Reply

titus
04-29-2013, 01:27 AM
Oh nobody ever said that all of the Muslims on the board are sparkly clean in all of their behavior so kindly spare us the childish “I know you are but what am I?” evasions if you please. We’re all human and two wrongs don’t make a right. To call what you did hateful or Islamaphobic may be pushing it but all the same you seem to have come to the board, and to the thread, solely to mock people:
Please read my post again because you obviously did not read it correctly the first time. You may, incorrectly, call my post childish but I was simply pointing out a fact. If you believe that someone is coming to this forum simply to harass Muslims then that person should be banned. If you want to ban someone simply because they are non-Muslim and disagree with some Muslims on an issue then the problem is probably one of being oversensitive.

What is more childish, also, is putting words in someones mouth in order to create a false argument. I never claimed that the non-Muslims on this board were "sparkly clean" nor did I even insinuate "I know you are but what am I".

As for mocking people, I don't believe I have. If my opinion offends you then so be it.

I couldn’t help but notice that this post was edited by the administrator as well. I wonder how much nastier the original version was.
A bit. It was directed towards one individual that shows a strong dislike of anyone that is non-Muslim or disagrees with her. It was not directed at Muslims in general, nor even the members of this forum in general.

What you have seen in that small segment of the video, is a scene of military, forcely removing residents from their homes without any warrant.
I don't disagree with you, but I don't agree with you either. I just want some source other than a youtube video that does not place the video in context nor speak with anyone in the video.

The naked man, seen to be hand-cuffed and led away by an ARMY, had been positively identified by his aunt and his mother.
Stangely enough, there is no video footage of the events leading to his death......isnt that amazing? Even though media/ reporters were on scene?
Are you speaking about this naked man, who is not one of the bombers?:

New Yorker

The video was shot blocks away from where the shootout took place, and there were some pictures taken at the location of the shootout.

So do you believe that the police and FBI decided as part of their false flag operation decided to arrest their patsy at one public spot, then arrange a fake shootout at another public spot, both of which had people either filming with a camera or taking pictures with their phone? And, of course, that all of the law enforcement involved were in on the conspiracy?

But no footage of when he was shot? Apparently they are still not sure if he shot himself or was shot!?
From what I understand there was blood on the boat and that was why the owner of the boat checked it. He had been shot before he got in the boat and before anyone knew where he was, therefore it is only logical that there is no footage of him shooting himself (if he did) because nobody knew where he was at the time. It is also possible he shot at the shootout where his brother died.

According to his mum, the FBI had been in frequent contact with her sons over the years.
Before releasing their pics to the world, a simple check through their database of 'suspected muslim terroriosts' would have sufficed to positively identify them.
In fact, even when they were identified, the FBI did not immediately acknowledge their past with him. Why?
It was their parents, who brought this to light.
I think you overestimate the power of the FBI. The pictures they had of the two gentlemen were grainy, and regardless of the movies and television they don't have computers that you can put a grainy image into that will spit out that persons identity. Any form of identifying that they have takes time, and time is not something they had a lot of when they released the pictures. The fastest way to identify them would be to make them public along with searching their databases.

And why would the FBI not immediately acknowledge their past? First I am not aware of the timeline for sure but I remember finding out about the FBI involvement fairly quickly after they were identified (the same day if I am not mistaken, April 19th). If you can give times to back up your belief that they dragged their feet I would like to see them. If they were to drag their feet it is probably from embarrassment since they basically had to come out and say "We investigated and found this man to not be a threat. We were wrong. We screwed up.". This is not good PR for them.

I also have to ask you why you think the FBI would create a false flag operation that involves making themselves look incompetent?


It is their right to believe what the media feeds them, despite the many holes in their plot.
As it is our right to research for ourselves and form our own opinions.
It is also anyones right to believe what Youtube and fringe political sites feed them, despite the massive holes in their plot.

I plead for people to research and form their own opinions. But I plead for them to look at all the facts and ask all the questions.
Reply

جوري
04-29-2013, 01:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Are you speaking about this naked man, who is not one of the bombers?:

New Yorker
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
It is also anyones right to believe what Youtube and fringe political sites feed them, despite the massive holes in their plot.

I plead for people to research and form their own opinions. But I plead for them to look at all the facts and ask all the questions.
Seems even the people from the very article you cited as evidence have formed their own opinion based on what was presented:

9 comments |


Posted 4/28/2013, 6:23:30pm by MahmoudHarriReport abuse

Please, if you google "New footage of the naked man in Boston bombings and a summary" you will find a second video taken by CNN of the naked man and you see he is indeed tamerlan Tsarnaev
Posted 4/28/2013, 6:15:35pm by MahmoudHarriReport abuse

lol, ok seth, please let us know when you hear back from the Watertown police about the naked man. Funny how the whole point of your article was inserted as a parenthetical. "(When I asked a Boston Police Department spokesman about their identities, he referred me to the F.B.I.; an F.B.I. spokeswoman referred me to the Watertown police; and I’m waiting to hear back from the Watertown lieutenant handling media inquiries.)"
Posted 4/28/2013, 5:24:35pm by lolzupReport abuse

Mr. Mnookin: Why do I have to read Al-Monitor to find out Ruslan Tsarni's connection to the CIA? Wouldn't a thoughtful query into Tsarni's curriculum vitae be more useful than the dreck you've served up here? Is Remnick out to lunch along with the rest of you? Doh!
Posted 4/28/2013, 3:31:22pm by newyorkerirrelevantReport abuse

Snooker-since this article only raised more questions than it answered, your attempt to radicalize all conspiracy theories failed. There are multiple cover ups going on in this case. While the naked man may or may not be part of any of them, make no mistake there are others. Nice try to make those of us who question authority look like kooks. It didn't work but Barry thanks you anyway.
Posted 4/28/2013, 12:10:03pm by dirtywater1Report abuse

I am the last person to buy into conspiracy theories of any kind, but we can't launch into a rant about "wow--these crazy government-conspiracy nuts!" without at least a basic explanation of this very weird video. My jaw dropped when I saw it...if that's not Tamerlan Tsarnaev, who the hell is it? His secret twin? A movie double? The resemblance is startling--build, face, hair--everything. If its not him, who is it?
Posted 4/28/2013, 10:35:40am by greengageReport abuse

Clearly photo of man on ground playing dead isn't tamerlan. I wonder if the New Yorker staff can remember all the conspiracies(lies)of history that turned world events and started wars? Gulf of Tonkin, the Maine, Saddam's wmd. How dare you be so flip.
Posted 4/28/2013, 4:21:55am by markb4Report abuse

But this does look *exactly* like the older brother, and the article doesn't really explain anything...
Posted 4/27/2013, 10:40:04pm by PhlagReport abuse


funny world innit..

As the great scholar once said: ''what do the clouds care for the barking dogs below, & even if said dogs are rabid''!

best,
Reply

titus
04-29-2013, 02:34 AM
Obviously then all the police at this location are in on the conspiracy to bomb their own town, as well as the Police Chief who is corroborating the story. Oh, and then police staged a shootout in a residential neighborhood with lots of witnesses (really smart if you are trying to do a cover up), including one taking pictures, that involved hundreds of bullets being fired and residents witnessing the SUV taking off.

You think that is reasonable, yet you think misidentifying a man in a fuzzy picture taken at night is far fetched?
Reply

جوري
04-29-2013, 02:39 AM
what is that reverse irony? Frankly, folks who come up with stories about invincible passports and plane parts showing up ten years later at 'would be mosque' sites don't strike me as particularly interested in sizing up your intelligence. Of course, we also can't be made responsible for what you choose to believe.
Islam when it comesto judicial matters and especially so allows no room for hearsay- he said or she said or third party buffoons, or fourth party peddlers expressing ridicule when there's indeed much to be ridiculed from where we are standing.
Btw, not all the pictures are fuzzy, just the ones you chose to share. It seems like you have a far wider audience that's disillusioned than the pitiful Muslims on board.

best,
Reply

جوري
04-29-2013, 03:09 AM
completely on a tangent but I'd appreciate if someone would find me this show pls.

moyers and company ''liberties and national security'' with Glenn Greenwald.

:jz:
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-29-2013, 03:09 AM
Please read my post again because you obviously did not read it correctly the first time…What is more childish, also, is putting words in someones mouth in order to create a false argument. I never claimed that the non-Muslims on this board were “sparkly clean” nor did I even insinuate “I know you are but what am I”.

The irony here is astounding:

“I see no hatred here from the non-Muslims towards Muslims. I do see lots of hatred from some of the Muslim posters though. You may not like what we say, but I challenge you to find anything written by myself, Independent or any of the other non-Muslims that is anti-Muslim or ‘ugly’ towards Islam.”

Oh nobody ever said that all of the Muslims on the board are sparkly clean in all of their behavior so kindly spare us the childish “I know you are but what am I?” evasions if you please. We’re all human and two wrongs don’t make a right. To call what you did hateful or Islamaphobic may be pushing it but all the same you seem to have come to the board, and to the thread, solely to mock people...
Ordinarily I have an instinct, a little voice inside me in a situation like this that’ll whisper to me, “Well maybe it was your fault. Maybe you really didn’t make it clear enough that you weren’t accusing him of saying that the non-Muslims on this board had squeaky clean behavior”. That voice was silent this time. My conscience is clean. Because it would just be too ridiculous. I was ridiculously clear. The straw man is yours and yours alone. The lack of cautious reading is yours and yours alone.

You may, incorrectly, call my post childish but I was simply pointing out a fact…As for mocking people, I don't believe I have.

When your original post, again, contained this...

I haven’t been here in a while so I thought I would drop by. I made a couple of predictions before I did. One was that there would be a conspiracy theory thread about the Boston bombings—Looks like I was right on both counts. Independent, I think the fun will come later...I also love the baseless accusations that are made with no proof but also no way of disproving them. It makes the people feel like they are making an intelligent point when in fact they are not. (this was all practice for imposing national martial law? Really?) It's like those people that claim that the world leaders are all really lizards disguised as humans. It's so ridiculous that you can't believe people would fall for it, yet you really don't have an answer when they ask you to disprove it. And just for some fun....
…I guess it’s just down to your word against mine. Which isn’t to say that I’d be sweating bullets if we got any impartial jury in the world to act as arbiter.

As for “not liking your opinion” I’m not even sure which one you’re referring to. In case you’ve forgotten I’m actually on your side as regards the likelihood of this conspiracy. I just don’t like it when people troll. I’m certainly not fond of the opinion that it’s okay to go around comparing people to psychotics who believe that presidents are lizards wearing human suits.
Reply

titus
04-29-2013, 03:39 AM
Btw, not all the pictures are fuzzy, just the ones you chose to share. It seems like you have a far wider audience that's disillusioned than the pitiful Muslims on board.
I never shared any pictures unless you want to count the ones in the article I posted. In that case it was the New Yorker doing the editing, not myself. Maybe you would care to post the clear picture that was taken?
folks who come up with stories about invincible passports and plane parts showing up ten years later at 'would be mosque' sites don't strike me as particularly interested in sizing up your intelligence.
I could say the same about folks who believe in a conspiracy that would have had to involve thousands of people killing thousands of their own citizens and yet 12 years later not a single one of them has stepped forward or let it slip, yet think that anything short of everything vaporizing on plane when it crashes is inconceivable.... those are the intelligent ones I guess?

…I guess it’s just down to your word against mine. Which isn’t to say that I’d be sweating bullets if we got any impartial jury in the world to act as arbiter.
Yes, looking back I did mock conspiracy theorists in a way. It was a poor attempt at making my point and I should have worded things differently.

That being said I have quite a few posts on this forum. I ask that read them (probably excluding the ones that involve Skye) and then come to a conclusion about my intent on being here before assuming that I have come here solely to mock people.

As for “not liking your opinion” I’m not even sure which one you’re referring to. In case you’ve forgotten I’m actually on your side as regards the likelihood of this conspiracy.
I apologize. I got ahead of myself.

I just don’t like it when people troll. I’m certainly not fond of the opinion that it’s okay to go around comparing people to psychotics who believe that presidents are lizards wearing human suits.
I am most certainly not a troll. As for the lizard man argument again it was poorly worded. I brought that up as an example of the type of logic used by conspiracy theorists and the fact that they often use the inability to disprove something as evidence that that thing is true. I cannot prove Obama is not really an alien lizard disguise, therefore the assumption must be that it is true until I can disprove it.

Do I think the people who believe these conspiracy theories are psychotic? No, but I do believe that they have a strong desire to ignore reality when they don't like reality.
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islamica
04-29-2013, 04:29 AM
Tamerlan's father identifies the naked man being led into the police car captured on footage on Youtube as his son Tamerlan, not a random bystander as per police report. Questions arise as to who that guy was if not Tamerlan and how he died if he was Tamerlan.

"I feel hopeless. We are simple people. We are trying to understand. We are attacked from all sides," he said, clutching his head in despair.

"I don't know whether I should talk or stay silent. I don't want to harm my child. ... We are used to all sorts of things here but we didn't expect this from the United States."


He and other members of the family believe a man shown on television being led naked into a police car the night of the shootout was Tamerlan, and that the blurry footage, still widely available on YouTube, proves Tamerlan was captured alive. Boston police say Tamerlan was killed in a shootout, and the man seen being led into the car was a bystander who was briefly detained.


Anzor Tsarnaev said he raised the issue with U.S. officials who visited him earlier in the week in his home in Dagestan.


"I asked them: 'I saw my child alive, he was being put into a police vehicle alive and healthy. How come media said he was killed?' They were shocked themselves," the father said.


The suspects' mother, Zubeidat, was with Anzor Tsarnaev in the village but did not wish to speak.


"She is ill, she is shocked, she is depressed. She lost her children," Tsarnaev said. The couple are divorced but have stayed together.


Although the Tsarnaev brothers have roots in Dagestan and neighboring Chechnya, neither had spent much time there until Tamerlan returned to Dagestan last year for six months.


During his interview, Anzor Tsarnaev denied Tamerlan had any contact with militants during his stay, painting an idyllic picture of his son's visit to his ancestral homeland.


"When he came to stay here, he was a good boy. He read books, (Leo) Tolstoy, (Alexandre) Dumas and thick English language books. He would wake up late and read all day, late into the night," he said.


"Sometimes we went to the mosque. We went to see our relatives, in Dagestan, in Chechnya. We visited a lot of households, it was a nice atmosphere."


Tsarnaev said he had to force his son to return to the United States to complete his U.S. citizenship application after Tamerlan tried to convince his family to allow him to stay in Dagestan for good.


"I told him: 'No, you have to go back to obtain your U.S. citizenship'. I forced him to go back. I thought it was the right thing to do. I shouldn't have done that," he said with a pained expression on his face.


The father said he had no hope that Tamerlan's body would be released by the U.S. authorities to be buried in his homeland.


"They won't give us his body," he said, his voice breaking with emotion. "We wont be able to bury him in our land."


http://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-bost...160819875.html
Reply

faithandpeace
04-29-2013, 07:31 AM
There sure does seem to be a lot of evil going on. The official story is full of more and more holes. As to all of these "witness" accounts the fact is that witnesses are not as reliable as people are led to believe. I personally have probably a much better level of situational awareness than many people out there yet I have come across a variety of incidents in public where things happened so fast that I nor anyone else could clearly determine much if any details of what happened. An example is being in a store and someone had set their purse down and a thief grabs it and runs. With two dozen people around nobody knows who or what to look for. You hear a woman scream and can't even tell at first if it is an emergency or someone joking around with her friend on her cell phone. In the case of the Boston situation if we are talking about explosions and shootouts I would think witness accounts are even less reliable. The first thing in most people's minds when bullets are flying or things are exploding is to evacuate the area and duck. They don't have time to stand around and watch and whatever license plates, descriptions of people, etc. they get will be forgotten within seconds due to their adrenaline going through the roof. What people think they remember can change 10 minutes later, then an hour later, then a day later. I have also been around many people over the years who are so unaware of their surroundings that even screaming at them that they are about to be hit by a car that is in front of their eyes and they can't seem to know what is going on but alhamdulillah they end up ok. I believe the average person is not very aware of their surroundings and in an emergency life-threatening situation is not likely to be a reliable witness. Yet many people with egos want to become "witnesses" to get a little TV time. In other cases, people honestly and legitimately wish to help but don't realize just how much they end up exaggerating. It is easy to lie and believe one's own lies especially if one's intentions are impure and impious.

Some here have tossed around that the Boston bombing among other things is a Zionist conspiracy. I don't think that is true as I don't see how this would relate to the situation in Israel. However, Israel among other nations is very much part of the global profit system. I believe there is a global elite that basically worships money and profit and whose goal is to maintain their position of wealth and power at the top of the pyramid of the profit system. There are people in this world who have enough money, friends, and family, and other associates with money totalling up in the many billions as to be able to hold massive control. If you have a million dollars you can buy a nice home and travel the world. If you have a billion dollars and friends who do then you can now buy entire countries.

It is possible that many Islamic countries have resources that the capitalists want. It is also possible that capitalism in and of itself sees spirituality, religion, and particularly Islam as a competitor. I've wondered about this for many years actually. Capitalist culture tries to secularize and water down religion and spirituality as much as possible. Christmas for Christians in much of the West has long since been commercialized, same with Chanukah for Jews but to a lesser degree. When the core philosophy of a social, economic, and political system (capitalism) is to live for the sake of consumption and production and profit then spirituality and religion become a threat. It is no accident that the type of Islam that is accepted in secular capitalist societies is a secularized watered-down version of Islam. If you are a Muslim who looks and dresses in Western clothing, drinks and smokes, and spends more time buying consumer goods than praying then that is considered more or less ok by this system. I've read many reports and articles by the EEOC (U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission) documenting discrimination cases on the basis of religion. Muslims, Jews, and Sikhs seem to be targeted the worst from what I have gathered. It seems to be because of the dress style. If a person calls themselves a Muslim, Jew, or Sikh but in reality demonstrates no spiritual or religious significance to that label and behaves in a completely secular manner allowing the corporation to mold him or her into the company's culture and philosophy, then most people are fine with that person. "He's Muslim but he's cool." Yet when the woman wears hijab or the Jewish guy wears a yarmulke, or Sikh man wears turban now is when there is a problem. Most of these articles I've read don't even center around religious accomodations (for prayers, holidays, etc.). It is the clothing they have a problem with.

Back to the Boston bombings, it is the same kind of a cultural war. They keep focusing on how this wife and mother both used to be "normal" people (i.e. drinking, smoking, partying, listening to lots of music, TV, etc.) wearing "normal" clothes (sexually provocative Western dress) but recently started "concerning friends" by wearing hijab, not going out much, etc. The Boston bombings were never about some big political move in my opinion. It is just another piece of the culture war against Islam. I think it is an anti-spiritual/religious agenda in general but the reason that Jews and Sikhs for instance are not so targeted as much is because worldwide they don't make up a large percentage of the populace. Christianity is already so watered down and secularized for the most part anyway. Islam is not so easily secularized and therefore a competitor to the system. You cannot package our Salat or Ramadan onto a shelf and sell it back to us for a price. Insha'Allah I hope not. The Boston bombings continue to perpetuate this idea that anyone "too religious" in a way that doesn't blend in with American pop culture is someone who may be a threat to this country. It is a problem with the value system. Islam places God first. Capitalism places the dollar bill first. There's your problem. A consumer system operates off of a perceived need that previously did not exist. Suddenly a person is convinced they need a product or service to continue to be fulfilled in whatever aspect of their life even though they got along fine without it before. When someone holds on to the tight rope of spirituality and religion placing their need on God and His will first, then he sees the triviality and bankruptcy in the consumer model. I'm not opposed to entrepreneurship so nobody get the idea I'm some marxist as I'm not. But I believe that a system that aims to keep people in a state of fear so that they always have temporary solutions for all of their problems and provided temporary enjoyment and values in things always at a profitable price is going to find threat to any system or systems that gives people faith and truth and peace in things that are eternal and hold value beyond any material price.

The proof of all of what I've said here can be seen in so many media reports. They aren't going to call Muslims who drink, smoke, drug, party, and immerse themselves in secular pop culture as "jihadists, radicals, or extremists." It is when you turn off the TV and stop compulsively consuming that you become the so-called "radical."

My humble opinions.
Reply

Independent
04-29-2013, 10:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
He and other members of the family believe a man shown on television being led naked into a police car the night of the shootout was Tamerlan, and that the blurry footage, still widely available on YouTube, proves Tamerlan was captured alive. Boston police say Tamerlan was killed in a shootout, and the man seen being led into the car was a bystander who was briefly detained.
Parents often refuse to accept that their children have turned into murderers - which is understandable. In this case, according to the latest reports, the mother was herself on the international suspect terrorist database.

I've looked at various picture analyses of the naked man video and he is similar (which is why he was arrested) but I don't think it's the same man. Tamerlan was 6ft 3in tall, this man is shorter. In close up his nose and his ears don't look the same. But the pictures are grainy and I would agree with anyone who said it's hard to be certain.

As it stands, it doesn't constitute proof in any direction (unless you have given up bothering to be objective).

The naked man was arrested at least an hour after the shoot-out in which Tamerlan is supposed to have died. The man was released within a couple of hours once it became clear that the suspects were identified elsewhere.

If you choose to believe the naked man is Tamerlan, that means you also have to explain who were the two men in the other shoot out and why were they attacked? If one of them was Dzhokhar, why wasn't he with Tamerlan? And how did the police manage to find Tamerlan such a short time afterwards in the same area? It doesn't make sense, it's so complicated. Even if you think it's a conspiracy it's too elaborate. If the government control the media, why were CNN allowed to film the arrest of the naked man in the first place?

The official explanation (given within two hours of the arrest) that the guy was arrested by mistake is simple and totally plausible. It would be far more suspicious if the police never made any incorrect arrests or searches.
Reply

Independent
04-29-2013, 10:14 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by faithandpeace
There sure does seem to be a lot of evil going on. The official story is full of more and more holes.
Contrary to what you may think, I could be persuaded that a given event was a false flag op if the evidence was good enough. But I’m not convinced by what’s on offer here and it bothers me that so many people approach this with preconceived convictions that it’s all a conspiracy - people who will accept any old story without the slightest attempt to check them out.

People talk about seeing through ‘mainstream media’. But at this stage, conspiracists are also an organised media with their own agenda, their own financial incentives, and their own fixed prejudices. Therefore, we should place the same standards - the same burden of proof - on conspiracists that the conspiracists place on the official version.

1. Witnesses

format_quote Originally Posted by faithandpeace
I believe the average person is not very aware of their surroundings and in an emergency life-threatening situation is not likely to be a reliable witness.
I totally agree with you about this and I've seen it demonstrated in tests just how unreliable people's memories can be. However, this unreliability cuts both ways. The conspiracy witnesses are no more reliable than anyone else. (eg in Boston, when you get one guy out of tens of thousands (Ali Stevenson) who says there was a bomb drill announced, but no one else reports it, you should discount him altogether.)

2. Photographic/video evidence

Everyone has a mobile phone, so almost any event is now quite likely to be accompanied by at least some photographic evidence. You would have expected this to lead to more clarity. It hasn't. The pictures are often poor quality and capable of interpretation. From now on, there will always be those who claim that the person in the picture is not the person the officials say, but someone else (a secret policeman, a victim from Sandy Hook, a war veteran - whatever). There will never be another event where this doesn't happen. Too much faith is placed in photography, it doesn't always tell the full story and sometimes it’s downright deceptive. There is a long history of conspiracy sites showing photos taken from entirely different times and locations and passing them off as evidence.

3. Throw enough mud against a wall and some will stick.

This is probably the single most valuable tool in the conspiracist’s arsenal. In any major event there are a huge number of stories that fly around. It doesn't seem to matter to people when the stories totally contradict each other (even though people jump on the slightest inconsistency in the official story). Many of these issues subsequently fall by the wayside as being irrelevant or just plain wrong.

For instance - to mention just a few from Boston - we had the man on the roof (an employee of a company that uses the balcony as a place to have a smoke), the Saudi suspect (no longer relevant), the library bomb (a confusion between two libraries and timing), Craft International (they don't provide security staff and their kit is available to anyone). At a higher level, we have the now mostly-abandoned theory that this was a right wing/patriot false flag op (irrelevant since the Muslim link emerged). Although these no longer form part of the main conspiracist's narrative, they have still played a big job in softening up people into believing "there's no smoke without fire". Yet when you go back through the timeline you realise almost all of them have been junked.

4. 24 hour news and the internet.

The news media need to fill every minute of every day. To do that, they will pick up on every lead no matter how slender and give it airtime. They capture the chaos and confusion of unfolding events, the false arrests, the bombs that weren't, the eyewitnesses with random comments. This provides limitless material for the conspiracists. Meanwhile, the internet is the perfect vehicle to spread absolutely any theory no matter how far-fetched.

5. Governments screw up.

We're only human. Governments and police too. We make mistakes. Often, we try to cover them up afterwards. If an FBI officer fails to spot a potential suspect who then goes on to kill 100 people, let's not be surprised if he tries to cover up his error. It doesn't always mean that he's part of a conspiracy.

Also, we should bear in mind that counter espionage is a dirty business. Intelligence is key to success. It’s extremely likely that the CIA have at least some double agents in various Muslim terrorist groups. Sometimes, those double agents participate in a crime to retain their cover. The CIA or other intelligence agency have to decide to let some people get killed to save more in the future (eg see the history of Enigma in WW2). That doesn’t mean that they control or orchestrate the whole thing – you need more proof than that.

6. Leading conspiracists are proven liars.

There really is no doubt in this - for instance Alex Jones, who has led the Boston reports, has been caught many times spreading stories which are factually untrue. You may choose to believe his overall agenda. But if you look at his work, it's impossible not to see that he has lied repeatedly. He does not care about the provenance of a story, so long as it creates unrest. (eg tweets and facebook pages that appear to have foreknowledge of the attack - when he knows that for technological reasons the times are not recorded accurately or can sometimes be changed afterwards). These are outright lies and he knows it. Yet people swallow his stories without any critical analysis at all (whilst telling the rest of us that we are 'sheeple'). You can’t accuse the government of lying unless you apply the sae standards to Alex Jones etc.

7. The unholy alliance
There are a huge diversity of conspiracy groups who often hate each other as much as the government. So you may find white supremacists on the same side as Muslims and left wing liberals. A weird, weird mix.

It also means that there’s always a ‘motive’ available for any event. It’s to justify an invasion, a police state, ideological warfare – whatever. Who cares which.

8. Inconsistent narratives
Conspiracists have no shame. They expect the official story to be watertight in every detail, whilst their own stories don't even make sense in their own terms (and they never apologise for their mistakes). This was never so clearly expressed as in the split over 9/11, the Planers and the No Planers. They can't both be true. So maybe the 'overwhelming evidence' isn't so overwhelming after all.

In Boston we have big divisions between a) those who think the event was faked altogether (ie there were no bombs, the injuires are faked etc) and b) those who think there was a bomb, but Tamerlan and Dzhokhar didn't plant it and c) there was a bomb, they planted it, but they are just patsies.

All of these theories are incompatible (some of them in a major way) yet the conspiracists still seem to regard that any evidence that supports any of the theories counts for them too.
Reply

islamica
04-29-2013, 12:13 PM


Reply

IAmZamzam
04-29-2013, 12:28 PM
Let's all stop dancing around it and just come right out and say it (although to give him credit Independent has come close to doing so):the real problem here is that the news media is almost never trustworthy, and the government's official story about anything will always be full of holes. So what difference does it make? If there is some conspiracy going on then we could hardly have any genuinely reliable way of picking up on it. It's the boy who cried wolf. Yet I'll remind you again that every single time there's a disaster which has a certain kind of emotional impact of the nation there's an anti-government conspiracy theory formed around it, and usually in short order. Pearl Harbor. JFK. Bay of Pigs. 9/11. The Ohio shooting. Even Columbine had a few people here and there doing it. And now this. At this point I saw it coming a mile away. I'm too used to it. In fact this seems to be so inevitable and so universal a psychological experience that the DSM may as well come up with an official "syndrome" name for it.
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islamica
04-29-2013, 12:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Let's all stop dancing around it and just come right out and say it (although to give him credit Independent has come close to doing so):the real problem here is that the news media is almost never trustworthy, and the government's official story about anything will always be full of holes. So what difference does it make? If there is some conspiracy going on then we could hardly have any genuinely reliable way of picking up on it. It's the boy who cried wolf. Yet I'll remind you again that every single time there's a disaster which has a certain kind of emotional impact of the nation there's an anti-government conspiracy theory formed around it, and usually in short order. Pearl Harbor. JFK. Bay of Pigs. 9/11. The Ohio shooting. Even Columbine had a few people here and there doing it. And now this. At this point I saw it coming a mile away. I'm too used to it. In fact this seems to be so inevitable and so universal a psychological experience that the DSM may as well come up with an official "syndrome" name for it.
Polls show that 36% of Americans – roughly 100 million people – think it likely that 9/11 was an inside job. Many of these truth-seekers are highly-accomplished scientists, engineers, military and intelligence officers, and other experts. Though it is too early to know for sure, the Boston bombings featured the most important telltale sign of a false-flag op: A terror drill running simultaneously, mirroring the actual attack. As Webster Tarpley has explained in his book 9/11 Synthetic Terror: Made in USA, false-flag attacks such as 9/11 and 7/7 are designed as drills that suddenly “go live.” This allows insiders to plot and execute the attacks under cover of the drills, with the “Team B” bad guys actually carrying out the attacks they were supposedly going to feign.
http://www.globalresearch.ca/boston-...course/5331789


Good luck trying to find a "syndrome" for 100 million Americans and that's just the ones that answered the polls, also not counting millions of individuals worldwide. The number brainwashed and blinded individuals like you and indy grow less and less over time. There will always be two groups till the end of times, but don't worry, come J-Day, inshallah all will be revealed although it will be too late to help anyone.

If you tell a big enough lie and tell it frequently enough, it will be believed.
- Hitler
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IAmZamzam
04-29-2013, 12:54 PM
Holy...tone it down a little, sister. Do my comments about the media and the government really sound to you like the product of someone who has been brainwashed?? I don't trust either one of them any further than I could bicycle kick the Chrysler Building. It seems, rather, like your definition of "brainwashed" is "in disagreement with me". My comment about syndromes was a joke. In actual fact I'm not at all sure that psychology is a science. But the pattern I spoke of holds true, and that "lots of respectable people believe this" argument has been used on all sorts of quackery and false teachings throughout history, including many things that go strictly against Islamic dogma. It's the reverse ad hominem fallacy and nothing more. I remember reading a book by Billy Graham in my grandmother's house which starts off the same way, citing all these respectable scientists and what not who believe in Christianity.

Are you seriously trying to suggest that my being skeptical of this conspiracy is going to d-a-m-n me somehow?
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islamica
04-29-2013, 01:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Are you seriously trying to suggest that my being skeptical of this conspiracy is going to d-a-m-n me somehow?
I'm not suggesting anything. Just reminding that come J-day, all will be revealed and no one one will be able to hide behind their lies. Allah commands us in the Quran to verify any news that comes our away, lest we start parroting it and then regret of the harm it will do. Allah gave us intellect to see for ourselves, if i see something fishy and smell something fishy then i'll believe something fishy is going on and no fancy talk or "debunking" of the liars will change that. I could care less for the kuffars as they are already d.amned, but it is the Muslims who need to be careful in their haste to condemn their fellow Muslims at the words of the kuffars, or to deny them their islamic right of a janaza such as the imams have done. These same Muslims you wrong by singing the tune of anti-islam bigots will hold you responsible on J-Day and demand justice from Allah against you.
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islamica
04-29-2013, 01:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by faithandpeace
The official story is full of more and more holes.
.
You know the saying, a liar changes his story every time while a truth person always tells same.


If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything.
- Mark Twain


Liar's motto: If at first you don't deceive, lie, lie again.
- Duane Alan Hahn


I wonder how many times a flood of lies have been used to discredit one truth?
- Duane Alan Hahn


There is a great deal of hard lying in the world; especially among people whose characters are above suspicion.
- Benjamin Jowett

It is possible that many Islamic countries have resources that the capitalists want.
If you look at the Muslim world, the meddling is in the nations that have natural resources. It doesn't take a genius to figure out nor are the western politicians shy to say what they are willing to do in the name of "national interest".


Back to the Boston bombings, it is the same kind of a cultural war. They keep focusing on how this wife and mother both used to be "normal" people (i.e. drinking, smoking, partying, listening to lots of music, TV, etc.) wearing "normal" clothes (sexually provocative Western dress) but recently started "concerning friends" by wearing hijab, not going out much, etc. The Boston bombings were never about some big political move in my opinion. It is just another piece of the culture war against Islam.
You'd be surprised to see how these animals are treating the the wife of the dead brother.
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IAmZamzam
04-29-2013, 01:49 PM
Sister, all I did was express an opinion. Which is exactly the same thing you did. I would consider the possibility that come Judgment Day you'll have to be held responsible for hounding your brother over absolutely nothing when he's done nothing to you.
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Independent
04-29-2013, 01:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
You know the saying, a liar changes his story every time while a truth person always tells same.
So why do you listen to Alex Jones?

format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
Polls show that 36% of Americans – roughly 100 million people – think it likely that 9/11 was an inside job
Which poll? There have been many polls and i have seen some that give very different results - not least because the questions are often very ambiguous. Someone who agrees that the CIA might have had 'prior knowledge' of 9/11 is not the same as someone saying 'the government did it'.

format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
Many of these truth-seekers are highly-accomplished scientists, engineers, military and intelligence officers, and other experts
And then you go on to quote Winston Tarpley, who is none of these things.

format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
the Boston bombings featured the most important telltale sign of a false-flag op: A terror drill running simultaneously, mirroring the actual attack
Where is your proof for this? As I said above, this report stems from a single witness (Ali Stevenson) who saw some sniffer dogs (which is just about the last thing the authorities would want if they were planting the bombs themselves).

format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
This allows insiders to plot and execute the attacks under cover of the drills, with the “Team B” bad guys actually carrying out the attacks they were supposedly going to feign.
What is the point of trying to explain away a bombing by saying that two guys pretend to plant a bomb, so that another bunch of guys can be planting the real thing? How does that explain anything? If Tamerlan is a normal guy, why is he pretending to plant bombs? This is not your average everyday behaviour.

We know that Tamerlan and his Mum were themselves fans of Alex Jones and conspiracy theories in general. His Mum seems obsessed by it. She obviously has a hatred of the FBI going back some time. Do you really think that Tamerlan or any other potential terrorist with half a brain can read this stuff AND STILL allow himself to be a patsy for anyone? Could he be that stupid?

Why would Tamerlan, whom his mum says has nothing to do with extremism, be prepared to go that far on a 'dummy run'? What possible excuse could they give him for doing it? And if they've got him to do that much, why not give him the real bomb anyway and save the trouble of involving a whole other set of operatives? It just doesn't make sense!

This is an explanation that solves nothing but adds on huge extra complexities and improbabilities. Please tell us how you think this operation worked.
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-29-2013, 01:52 PM
I've never noticed the link before between capitalism and the phrase "national interest". There are so very many atrocious euphemisms in politics that you could probably create a nine-hundred page dictionary (with really tiny print) so I don't know if I could be blamed but all the same, well spotted.
Reply

LauraS
04-29-2013, 03:30 PM
I agree with what Independent said previously, that if we were to believe all conspiracy theories then there would have been no acts of terrorism ever, all are just part of government set ups. We know there are Muslim hate preachers out there that advocate the killing of non-Muslims, so you are telling me there are those radical thinkers but no one ever acts upon what they say? What about all the suicide bombings that happen in the Middle East, Muslims are capable of killing each other but not Non-Muslims? Just the other day in the UK a group of men were charged with plotting to set off nail bombs- there are recorded phone conversations of them planning it, their families knew about it and were angry and I think the men actually admitted they were planning it. The Muslim community said something needs to be done to protect Muslims from the more radical elements. << This shows people have the capabilities and will to carry out these attacks and the more other Muslims are shown in the press to be speaking out against it the better.

I've heard the arguments stating 9/11 was a cover-up but I've heard even more convincing counter arguments and at the end of the day I think the sheer number who would need to be kept quiet means it's unlikely than it was anything other than a terrorist attack.

Also what in earth is the Sandy Hook killing meant to have to do with this? I don't see the connection. So the news posted a picture of the head teacher of the school instead of the Boston bombing victim, a stupid mistake but anything other than that? What's the suggestion that the whole incident was faked and none of those poor children died? Also what would be the motive for this, apparently the government have an anti-Muslim agenda so why are they setting up a white American? Conspiracies about this massacre are just the worst and scraping the barrel for controversy instead of showing respect for murdered children and their families.

Once again we are told to not blindly follow the media ask questions (and not being a Muslim I can't fully understand what a difficult period it is for you at the moment) but you close your mind to any possibility that these men are actually guilty. Put of interest- does any small part of you entertain the idea that they are?
Reply

جوري
04-29-2013, 03:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I never shared any pictures unless you want to count the ones in the article I posted. In that case it was the New Yorker doing the editing, not myself. Maybe you would care to post the clear picture that was taken?
'Never' followed by the 'one' you posted and later commented on as being fuzzy renders this argument moot. Stick to a story for your own credibility!



format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I could say the same about folks who believe in a conspiracy that would have had to involve thousands of people killing thousands of their own citizens and yet 12 years later not a single one of them has stepped forward or let it slip, yet think that anything short of everything vaporizing on plane when it crashes is inconceivable.... those are the intelligent ones I guess?
adding 'thousands' involved is not only a faulty premise but concocted by you and the other individual. As for what you label conspiracy theory or conspiracy fact, it is your prerogative really. The U.S and NATO have been involved in many false flag operations that have entire documentaries dedicated to them even on the BBC if the only sources you accept as logical are main stream media and nothing at all to do with exercising reason!
here's a primal example:

unless you also desire to deny that there's such thing as central intelligence?

best,
Reply

titus
04-29-2013, 04:44 PM
'Never' followed by the 'one'
Correct. I never posted any pictures. Not a single one.

I did post a link to an article that had pictures.

There is no contradiction there.

adding 'thousands' involved is not only a faulty premise but concocted by you and the other individual.
The other individual has a name.

If you can tell me your version of the events and the cover up that would not involve thousands of people please feel free to share. The versions I have heard on this forum all would need thousands of people involved and aware of the operation.
Reply

~Zaria~
04-29-2013, 04:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LauraS
Once again we are told to not blindly follow the media ask questions (and not being a Muslim I can't fully understand what a difficult period it is for you at the moment) but you close your mind to any possibility that these men are actually guilty. Put of interest- does any small part of you entertain the idea that they are?
Hi Laura,

Personally, I do see this as a possibility.

The problem is, that these young men have already been tried and convicted, and have not even had the chance to defend themselves as yet.

Attention was drawn to them from surveillance footage at the Boston marathon, simply because they had sachels on their backs?
There were hundreds of others at the event, who could also be held as suspects, based on this alone.

We already have one suspect killed, apparently by his brother running over him and dragging his body for a couple of metres
(even though the doctors who received him said that he appeared to have sustained gunshot and blast injuries, as well as the fact that his post mortem pics do not show any abrasive injuries).

We have another brother who apparently shot himself through his mouth (and then still managed to run with these serious injuries, and leave no blood imprints when getting into the boat, as seen on aerial footage), and hence, is currently unable to adequately defend himself.

And, we have the mysterious 'naked man': - who so happens to bear an uncanny resemblence to Tamerlan - in complexion, physique/ build, hair line, and just so happened to be at the scene at the time of the shoot-out.
If this happened to be you at the crime scene, would you not yell out: 'Its not the bomber. Heres my drivers license/ ID, etc'?
From the video, he seems to be making absolutely no protest to his arrest.
He has been positively identifed by his own family members (if it was our son/ brother, I am sure we would be able to identify him despite the video quality).
And he still remains nameless despite publics growing speculation.

Not to mention the other question marks that hang over this entire event....

Why would the brothers kill a security guard at MIT - and draw attention directly towards them, rather than go into hiding?
Why would they hijack somebody for their vehicle, when it is reported that Tamerlan had his own?......


Is this how the justice system works in Boston?
Where suspects are hunted down like animals, and dealt with without any chance for defense?
Reply

جوري
04-29-2013, 04:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Correct. I never posted any pictures. Not a single one.
I did post a link to an article that had pictures.
There is no contradiction there.
You posted an article with a picture and commented on the fuzziness of it!

format_quote Originally Posted by titus
The other individual has a name.
Not really an SN is nothing but a smoke screen of any number of things including spambots!

format_quote Originally Posted by titus
If you can tell me your version of the events and the cover up that would not involve thousands of people please feel free to share. The versions I have heard on this forum all would need thousands of people involved and aware of the operation.
The forum is riddled with such versions. The onus is on your to establish why more than one or two people giving the orders are essential for your reasons to be valid!

best,
Reply

titus
04-29-2013, 04:54 PM
Attention was drawn to them from surveillance footage at the Boston marathon, simply because they had sachels on their backs?
No, it wasn't simply because they had backpacks, but from the location they dropped the backpacks off and the location of the explosions, also the way they reacted when the bombs went off.

And, we have the mysterious 'naked man': - who so happens to bear an uncanny resemblence to Tamerlan - in complexion, physique/ build, hair line, and just so happened to be at the scene at the time of the shoot-out.
Actually a different scene, not the scene of the shootout. Also if this was a false flag operation then why would they arrest their patsy in public where there are obviously cameras in one place then stage a fake shootout at another public place?

(not the mention capturing the other brother alive)

Why not just shoot the guy on the street and say he had a weapon? Wouldn't that have been much much much easier than staging an entire shoot out in another place?

Is this how the justice system works in Boston?
Where suspects are hunted down like animals, and dealt with without any chance for defense?
The surviving brother is alive and in jail. He has an attorney and will be put on trial in front of a jury, and I am sure it will will be well publicized. He will have his day in court and be free to defend himself if he wishes in accordance with the law. That is how justice is done in Boston it seems.

He apparently has already confessed. What will you think of the conspiracy theory if he comes out and confesses publically?

Will you accept it?
Reply

جوري
04-29-2013, 04:57 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
He apparently has already confessed. What will you think of the conspiracy theory if he comes out and confesses publically?
Will you accept it?
Thanks for that hearty guffaw.. They never beat or coerce or force confessions out of anyone under some threat, body harm or duress? Of course they just shut the older one all together- so much for free speech ha?
Reply

titus
04-29-2013, 05:01 PM
Not really an SN is nothing but a smoke screen of any number of things including spambots!
So who are you accusing of being a spambot and writing posts about conspiracy theories?

The onus is on your to establish why more than one or two people giving the orders are essential for your reasons to be valid!
You are the one making the claim of a cover up, therefore the onus is on you. If you can give a version of the events that does not require hundreds if not thousands of people to in on it then please share. If you don't then you may continue to keep evading the question.
Reply

titus
04-29-2013, 05:03 PM
We already have one suspect killed, apparently by his brother running over him and dragging his body for a couple of metres
(even though the doctors who received him said that he appeared to have sustained gunshot and blast injuries, as well as the fact that his post mortem pics do not show any abrasive injuries).
Can you provide a source for this?

If it has been posted already I apologize, I must have missed it.
Reply

جوري
04-29-2013, 05:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
So who are you accusing of being a spambot and writing posts about conspiracy theories?
I haven't accused anyone of anything. I have merely pointed out that an SN doesn't a person make- the rest of that garble is another useless addition!


format_quote Originally Posted by titus
You are the one making the claim of a cover up, therefore the onus is on you. If you can give a version of the events that does not require hundreds if not thousands of people to in on it then please share. If you don't then you may continue to keep evading the question.
There's no cover up when things are obvious to the naked eyes. The thread is riddled with different versions, we can't be made responsible for what you choose to believe and what you choose to label conspiracy. I have already listed on the other page to the other fellow that the need for 'thousands of people' is just padding on his end, go back and read it.
And if doing the simply search is difficult then here it is again:
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/134319557-boston-bombings-3.html#post1579985

At least be original, don't hang on someone else's faults to make a point- if you've a point that is!

best,
Reply

~Zaria~
04-29-2013, 05:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
No, it wasn't simply because they had backpacks, but from the location they dropped the backpacks off and the location of the explosions, also the way they reacted when the bombs went off.
Theres no footage of the above.
If there was, why hasnt it been released as yet (only few seconds of a broken clip has been shown of these brothers at the marathon - and from the earlier videos that I posted, this too appears to be cut-and-pasted frames)



format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Actually a different scene, not the scene of the shootout. Also if this was a false flag operation then why would they arrest their patsy in public where there are obviously cameras in one place then stage a fake shootout at another public place?
One would indeed have expected more visual footage of the shoot-out, considering its great publicity and minute-to-minute updates by leading news networks.
Yet there are none.
Apart from poor quality footage, mainly from camera-phones.
The still-pics of the crime scene only show police either before/ after the key moments.
Interesting?



format_quote Originally Posted by titus
The surviving brother is alive and in jail. He has an attorney and will be put on trial in front of a jury, and I am sure it will will be well publicized. He will have his day in court and be free to defend himself if he wishes in accordance with the law. That is how justice is done in Boston it seems.

He apparently has already confessed. What will you think of the conspiracy theory if he comes out and confesses publically?

Will you accept it?
I would be open to his testiment.
As i mentioned, it still exists as a possibilty.
As exists the possibility of him being threatened into submission, by torture and other techniques.
Reply

~Zaria~
04-29-2013, 05:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Can you provide a source for this?

If it has been posted already I apologize, I must have missed it.





The post-mortem pics can be found on-line.
For respect of the deceased, i do not wish to post it.
Reply

titus
04-29-2013, 05:12 PM
As exists the possibility of him being threatened into submission, by torture and other techniques.
It seems that you are laying the groundwork to dismiss his confession if/when it comes.

I have merely pointed out that an SN doesn't a person make- the rest of that garble is another useless addition!
I am pretty sure it is a person, and using the name they give is usually a common courtesy. If you choose not to be courteous that is your right.
Reply

titus
04-29-2013, 05:16 PM
Zaria,

I watched the video. He says nothing about there not being abrasive wounds, only that there were gunshot wounds and blast wounds. I see nothing in there that contravenes the official story.
Reply

جوري
04-29-2013, 05:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
It seems that you are laying the groundwork to dismiss his confession if/when it comes.
It seems that you're only of one mind and by same token so exasperated when folks don't subscribe to your sole version of the events as if nothing else but the official story exists and from people who are so untrustworthy they've circulated the wrong pictures for two days:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...6pLid%3D300521



format_quote Originally Posted by titus
If you choose not to be courteous that is your right.
In my book that has to be earned and it wasn't!

best,
Reply

~Zaria~
04-29-2013, 05:30 PM
Zaria,

I watched the video. He says nothing about there not being abrasive wounds, only that there were gunshot wounds and blast wounds. I see nothing in there that contravenes the official story.
The doctor himself, describes 'bullet and blast' injuries.

I had mentioned that from his post-mortem pics (that are currently being circulated widely), there are no abrasions to be seen on his skin.
Which would not be in keeping of someone being dragged many metres on a tar surface.
There are instead gaping/ open wounds on his abdomen (which could be due to bullet injury), and extensive haemorrhage into his face and shoulders.
Reply

جوري
04-29-2013, 11:36 PM
http://billmoyers.com/episode/full-s...rity%E2%80%99/

I enjoyed this episode, it was surprisingly adult. I often feel the news here is aimed at teenagers or folks with below average intelligence!
Reply

titus
04-30-2013, 12:14 AM
I had mentioned that from his post-mortem pics (that are currently being circulated widely), there are no abrasions to be seen on his skin.
We shall wait and see what the medical examiner says then. If the autopsy comes out and does not contradict the official story does that mean the medical examiner for Boston is in on the conspiracy also?
Reply

ccc
04-30-2013, 01:12 AM
muslim word lives from the beginning in a great theory of conspiracy. even if you go in a muslim village you take contact with the great conspiracies. In other countries there are people who live their lives simply, without this wisdom of the conspiracy theory that muslims are proud to exhibit as the truth and as their garant of the truth. The great argument of the muslims, the power that islam has in itself:"others lie"
And another observation: muslims pretend justice and principles or show injustice not because they have principles, they only say look you hunt suspects like animals but they can not say that they are against death penalty for instance. They only like to say look you do much injustice more than us and this is unjust. But this really shows that they would like to do the same and they do but are enviously that the western are more powerful in this moment.
Reply

ccc
04-30-2013, 01:18 AM
maybe everything is with the conspiracy, the media, the doctor, the officials. What a pity there are only proofs that are not reliable because they do not show the conspiracy.Of course i must say that i find hard to believe that a muslim can be a terrorist and also that even if he would be he would do that like a brother of the muslims and because of the things that God commanded to him. However the western are more guilty than him, maybe they killed his family
Reply

جوري
04-30-2013, 01:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ccc
muslim word lives from the beginning in a great theory of conspiracy.
What does this mean exactly?

format_quote Originally Posted by ccc
even if you go in a muslim village you take contact with the great conspiracies.
You've been to a Muslim village? pray do tell!

format_quote Originally Posted by ccc
In other countries there are people who live their lives simply, without this wisdom of the conspiracy theory that muslims are proud to exhibit as the truth and as their garant of the truth.
unfortunately another nonsensical jumble of words!

format_quote Originally Posted by ccc
The great argument of the muslims, the power that islam has in itself:"others lie"
That's a complete non-argument not even an educated musing!

format_quote Originally Posted by ccc
And another observation: muslims pretend justice and principles or show injustice not because they have principles, they only say look you hunt suspects like animals but they can not say that they are against death penalty for instance.
Why should we be against the death penalty when it is decreed? It is however a judicial matter, not vigilantism or martial law.

format_quote Originally Posted by ccc
But this really shows that they would like to do the same and they do but are enviously that the western are more powerful in this moment.
:lol: so much to envy with your economy in the dumps, all time war fatigue, your national security if you actually subscribe to your govt. story is in the dumps, a teenage boy apparently closed your city down, and third world style despots. A country that once prided itself on putting a man on the moon, now prides itself on its militarism. As a country the U.S looks more and more like a braying trailer trash bible thumping wh0re who can't string a statement together (thank you for demonstrating above) than a cohesive nation of scholars and intellectuals like those who once stated:Those who would give up essential liberty for temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. -- Ben Franklin .


best,
Reply

ccc
04-30-2013, 01:29 AM
you are missing the point. I am not a lover of the us style.
about conspiracy theory you know that christians lie about bible, jews the same etc and the sionists rule the word in order to destroy islam probably,
Reply

جوري
04-30-2013, 01:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ccc
the media, the doctor, the officials
Have you actually read the report of the doctors per sr. Zaria? seen the conflicting stories from the media and 'officials' - indeed it is a pity & a miserable attempt on your part!

Good luck with your cognitive conservatism - Perhaps you should now be clued in as to why your attempts at evangelizing here are grossly unsuccessful.
What can one do with a fool? ignore him & be deemed by like fools unable to respond or descend down to sewage!

best,
Reply

جوري
04-30-2013, 01:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ccc
you are missing the point. I am not a lover of the us style.
about conspiracy theory you know that christians lie about bible, jews the same etc and the sionists rule the word in order to distroy islam probably,
You've no point at least none that you can evince with facts and not opinion. So let's not do this, I have a migraine & not in the mood for you or cyber buddies. Stick with topic and/or facts. Either controvert what is presented or prove yours absolute truth. There not much room for the other crap.. I think the forum itself is too old for said games even if some of its members aren't!

best,
Reply

جوري
04-30-2013, 01:43 AM
Please try to herb less when you write, I can't make out what you are saying. Per your PM I have no demons and your gender hardly comes into play when responding to you. In fact I love men very much, you're just not a category of men I love.
Try to think of the world from the other person's perspective not what you believe their perspective ought to be!

best,
Reply

ccc
04-30-2013, 01:52 AM
thank you for this new ideea. Lets look from another perspective: ration and logic did not prove anything until now, not even that there is something provable. I observe in your muslim argumentation modern rethoric. You seem to understand religion exactly as i see westerns do: the result of a serious logical and rational deduction. After you believ, you do the things that bring you the good things that guarantee you go in heaven. This is new type of simbiosys between west and islam. Of course, none of the parts is entirely conscious about what happens.Good luck with your spiritual activities.I have some very interesting activities to. I have a war with God sometimes
Reply

جوري
04-30-2013, 01:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ccc
: ration and logic did not prove anything until now
In Islam both the heart and the mind have to agree. In everything there's al'ma3qool wala ma3qool, even in medicine and that's discussed amply amongst scholars. Your fast food approach is the reason for your failure as far as your relations with others on this forum is concerned. Since you don't even make an attempt to break down the large nonsensical articles you quote. volume and fillers don't make up for the lack of contextuality, logical or spiritual consistency. Be that as it may, we're not here to discuss your religion or mine at least as far as this thread is concerned- rather the inconsistencies wit the latest version of the story. Perhaps we can indeed stick with that- my analogy on your failure shouldn't have come to play part in this for two reasons, the most important of those is my headache.

Thank you for your well wishes.. indeed we're hopeful that :Allah::swt: accepts from us the best of our intentions and deeds. To live is to live upon Islam and to die is to die upon Iman :ia: for this world is of action and the other is of the heart and that is between one and God.

best,
Reply

islamica
04-30-2013, 02:43 AM
5 dumbest things said about the Boston Marathon Explosions: Fox News, Asra Nomani, (some) Republicans


1) Ann Coulter, Fox News Ideologue, on how Muslim women “ought To Be In Prison For Wearing A Hijab…”

Coulter is of course known for a whole set of famous comments, stating that when it comes to Muslims, “We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity.”



Show caption

Ann Coulter: Invade Muslim Countries and Convert them to Christianity

Well, Ms. Coulter is at it again. This time her comments about comments about Katherine Russell, the wife of the dead Boston marathon suspect Tamerlan Tsarnaev. Ms. Russell is not in any way suspected of being associated with any criminal activity, and her family has already released a statement stating that they, like everyone else, were in the dark about the crimes Tamerlane is accused of doing.

So how is Ms. Russell offending Coulter? It is that Ms. Russell converted to Islam a few years ago, and has chosen to wear a head-covering when she is in public. Ms. Russell wears a form of head-covering (hijab) in public, as many Muslim women do, as many Orthodox Jewish women do, and as many Christian women used to do until not too long ago (and nuns still do).

This, choosing how to dress, is the crime for which Ms. Coulter thinks Ms. Russell (and presumably other Muslim women) should go to prison.

No, Ms. Coulter.

The whole point of a free society is that people should be free to make their own decisions about their body and their clothing.
If women want to cover their hair, more power to them.
If they want to wear shorts and a T-shirt, more power to them.
If they want to dress modestly, more power to them.
If women want to wear bikinis, more power to them.

If living in a free society means that you are free to dress as you like and get on Fox and voice your admittedly ignorant comments, those same freedoms mean that Ms. Russell, like other citizens, are free to dress as they like and believe what they want.

You can no more negate their rights without stripping yourself of yours. Not being content to stop her rant with hijab, Coulter proceeded to ask of Ms. Russell “Did she get a clitorectomy too?”

Fortunately, there was a wonderfully gracious response from many Muslim women.


2) Geographically challenged Americans

Apparently many Americans cannot tell the difference between Chechnya (a land-locked republic of former Soviet Union, currently a Russian federal subject) and the Czech Republic (an East European country).
Someone has had even had the good sense to compile a list of tweets revealing this sad if humorous confusion:



Geographically Challenged Tweets about Chechnya/Czech Republic

Yes. “Public Shaming” indeed. The lack of knowledge of many Americans about the broader world is somewhat legendary.

Now combine that lack of awareness about the world with anger, and desire to want to inflict damage on people (as in “nuking” people, even if it happens to be, well, the wrong people), and the combination is shall we say not revealing the best face of America.

By the way, a few geographically challenged Americans were calling for nuking a country, Czechoslovakia, which has not existed since 1993.


3) Fox News Identifies Root Causes of Terrorism: American Boobs, skyscrapers, and Pools. (Really).

The next “award” goes to Bill O’Reilly and Adam Carolla. Opining on Bill O’Reilly’s show, Adam Carolla vents [If you can't stomach idiocy, fast-forward to 1:55].

Show caption
Bill O’Reilly: Fox News


“They hate our culture, they hate our way of life. They hate that our women’s boobies get bigger, our swimming pools get deeper, and we’re building skyscrapers and bridges. Allah is supposed to take care of all this decadence, but Allah never does, so they take it upon themselves.”

I wonder who the “they” are: The Tsarnaev brothers? 1.5 billion Muslims around the world? Chechens? Terrorists? All the above? Or perhaps it doesn’t matter in Carolla’s provincial worldview, as long as they are some “imagined” other.

And for the “our” in Carolla’s statement (“they hate our culture”), I wonder about the reference there as well. Who is the “we” here? Fox news? America? Maybe, just maybe, not all Americans have inflated boobies, ever-deeper pools, and skyscrapers.

For that matter, I wonder if Carolla has googled the tallest buildings in the world. (just wonderin’). Hint: It may not be where he thinks.

I also wonder about Carolla, an avowed atheist, singling out “Allah.” Could it be that he is hesitant to reveal to Fox’s conservative base that he disavows “their” Christian God as well? Fox News loves to accuse Muslims of “Taqiyya” (hiding their true religious intentions). I wonder if one could speak of “atheist taqiyya”?

Never mind.

Some comments are so idiotic that that are perhaps not worth the breath needed to dissect, analyze, and refute them. Let’s just say that these comments reveal more about Carolla’s shallow misogynist materialism than they tell us anything about any one else on the planet. And shame on Bill O’Reilly for allowing them to go on unchallenged.

[And seriously, how is this on TV? ]

Next item.


4) Asra Nomani, Muslim journalist, writing in The Washington Post: Use of phrases like “God-willing” is a sign of radicalization.

In breathless “analysis,” Nomani opined that the she had the courage to talk about what other Muslims know about but are too “politically correct” to admit: that the “increasing use” of phrases like insha’allah (“God-willing”) by Muslims is a “code inside the community for someone who is becoming hardcore.

“It doesn’t mean that they’re becoming violent or criminal,” she said, “but it’s a red flag.” * [SEE EDITOR'S NOTE BELOW]

Show caption
Asra Nomani: Washington Post pundit


No,
Ms. Nomani.

One wonders how often Ms. Nomani has actually been around real practicing Muslims, whose daily language is imbued with reminders of the Divine:

If you ask most Muslims “How are you?”

You might hear: “Praise be to God (Alhamdulilah), I am doing well.”

If you ask most Muslims “Will I see you tomorrow?”

You might hear: “If God wills it (insha’Allah), I will be there.”

To point out a beautiful child, a Muslim might state “Look at what God has willed (masha’allah), what a beautiful child!”

The use, and increased usage, of phrases like Godwilling (insha’allah) is not a sign of radicalization, but merely one of piety. In the Qur’an, God enjoins upon Muslims: “never say I will do such-and-such tomorrow without adding If-God-wills-it-so…’” [Qur’an 18:23-24]

If such phraseology sounds “stuffy” to some ears, it is (or was) a part of the Christian tradition as well. The Epistle of James (4:15) includes the following injunction:

For that ye ought to say, If the Lord will, we shall live, and do this, or that.

If the Lord will…
God-willing.
Insha’allah.

Uttering these phrases makes one neither a Christian radical nor a Muslim radical, but simply a person who recognizes that we, by our own selves, can do nothing. We acknowledge that our life, breath, soul, and will, are all dependent on God.

Then again, I am not sure how much to expect from someone like Asra Nomani who uses her position of access in media to argue that Muslims should be racially profiled.


5) Many, many Republican officials across the country


Oh sweet Jesus, get in line here, for it’s a looooong queue. Where to start?

Do we go with Republican New York sen. Greg Ball who argued for the use of torture?

Show caption


R-NY Congressman Greg Ball calls for torture.

“And it comes down to this,” Ball said. “When you talk about terrorism, information matters. And if getting that information, including torture, would save one innocent life – including, that we’ve seen, children – would you use torture? I can tell you I would be first in line.”

That, in spite of the fact that the government’s own bi-partisan report issued recently states that torture has “no justification”, and that this practice of torture “damaged the standing of our nation, reduced our capacity to convey moral censure when necessary and potentially increased the danger to U.S. military personnel taken captive.” Furthermore, our own government has concluded that torture does not actually produce accurate results, and there is no evidence that information obtained by torture could not have been obtained by legal means.

Do we go with the North Carolina’s own Michele Presnell who equated Islamic prayer with “Condoning terrorism”?


Show caption
Michele Presnel (R-NC)


Do we go with the California Republican Congressman Dana Rohrabacher who stated that Islam as a whole represents a threat to the United States:
Here is the Congressman in his own words:


Show caption
Dana Rohrabacher


I hope we all work together against a religion that will motivate people to murder children and other threats to us as a civilization.”

Or should we go to other zealots who have talked about isolating mosques and putting them all under surveillance, when we know that the few Muslims who commit acts of terror come not from mosques. Instead, they tend to be isolated and alienated individuals who get their propaganda from online lectures from radical overseas clerics? In other words, we would want American Muslims to go to mosques, to have healthy and functioning mosque communities, to get their information from trained religious authorities, and to be part of a vibrant and paranoia-free community.

To put it more eloquently, listen to the words of Imam Suhaib Webb of the large Islamic Society of Boston Cultural Center:
“Radicalization does not happen to young people with a strong grounding in the American Muslim mainstream; increasingly, it happens online, and sometimes abroad, among the isolated and disaffected.”
It would be helpful if the FBI did not spend millions of dollars planting 15,000 spies in mosques to do surveillance on all Muslims, and in many cases seek to brainwash susceptible young people before sweeping in to arrest those some people. I think there is a name for that: entrapment.

The New York Times has a name for this type of a legal justice system as well: a separate justice system for Muslims.

“Separate but equal” is a path that we as Americans have tried before, and we don’t want to go down that rabitt hole again.

Let us hope that shining the light on these provides us with an opportunity to heal, to remove shortcomings, and ameliorate our own ignorance. May it be that these may be a step towards moving woundedness to healing. .


* [EDITOR'S NOTE: THIS SECTION WAS REVISED TO MORE ACCURATELY QUOTE FROM ASRA NOMANI'S ORIGINAL PIECE]

http://omidsafi.religionnews.com/201...best-things/#h[]
Reply

جوري
04-30-2013, 02:47 AM
I've to say they're all hoots but ann culotte is a special kind of a hoot!
Reply

islamica
04-30-2013, 02:58 AM
I wonder how much these bigots say this kind of the stuff to the families of their christian anglo terrorists like Timothy McVeigh?


Judge Jeanine Pirro Slams brother's Mom: Lady, You Shouldn't Be Allowed Here" Opening Stmt - 4-27-13

"We should not be required to breathe the same air as you, we should not be required to share the indignity of your presence" says Judge Jeanine Pirro in her opening statement to the mother of the Boston bomber suspects.
Reply

~Zaria~
04-30-2013, 03:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ccc
muslim word lives from the beginning in a great theory of conspiracy. .

The interesting part of these 'conspiracy theories' is that they are mostly driven by non-Muslims.

If you consider the videos on YouTube, most of the comments there-under, the various 'conspiracy' web-pages,etc - there are very few Muslims, if any, who are themselves finding the discrepancies with the official story.

So, this is not about trying to defend the alleged bombers simply because they are muslim.

You see, theres a growing number of people who are awakening to the reality of media lies, government agendas and the truth that lies behind the so-called 'War on terror'.

And I find it just amazing, when I see a non-muslim, who has taken the initiative to draw the publics attention to these types of findings - and by doing so, having the indirect effect of clearing the face of islam and bringing focus on the many injustices perpetrated upon the muslim world.
Reply

faithandpeace
04-30-2013, 04:00 AM
The United States especially with the help of the media and government is fast becoming a puppy-brained society. I turned off my TV set years ago. Probably one of the best decisions I've made in my life. The combination of fear, paranoia, and hysteria routinely driven into the minds of the American populace by the media and government accompanied by a declining education system and entertainment culture that is openly anti-intellectual doesn't pave a good road for the future. As sister العنود mentioned a 19 year old shut down an entire U.S. city. Nobody here on this forum is denying that it is sad and tragic what happened to those who were injured and those who perished in the Boston bombings. But I personally don't think a nation of 300 million people should be going into hysteria over essentially an alleged 19 year old teenager with a crockpot. As for all of this government and media's "investigation" into Islam, Muslims, masjids, etc. designed to root out so-called "radicals" insha'Allah more and more Muslims decide to stop apologizing for being Muslim. If using the phrase "insha'Allah" makes me or you or any of the ummah a "radical" then so be it. These islamophobes can continue to make up all the lies they want against Islam and Muslims but at the end of the day no matter how many people they fool, Allah (swt) is not fooled. The fact is that the truth is radical. Liars fear the truth. They hate Allah (swt) and they hate His devotees. No matter how much they hate us and persecute us and kill us (and may Allah (swt) make things easier on us and help protect us from their harm) the fact is that no matter how hard and aggressive they try they can never kill the truth in the end nor can they bury their lies indefinitely. Allah (swt) knows best.
Reply

islamica
04-30-2013, 04:04 AM
Mistreatment of Katherine Russell

by a sister - 4-25-13





I wanted to share a few comments I came across beneath articles about the suspected Boston bomber’s wife Katherine Russell.


The more I read about his wife, the more disgust I have for her for being so malleable that she could be beaten into converting to Islam, and for her parents who didn't seem to mind that their daughter comes home from college brainwashed and wearing a burka. No guidance from mom and dad, that's obvious.” (US)

Ugggh why is she still wearing that thing on her head after what her husband did. How rude!! She needs to take it off right now!!” (UK)

Why would any woman wish to wear cloths of oppression?” (UK)

Whilst I believe any loss of human life is of course a tragedy it is interesting to note that the comments related to Katherine Russell have largely focused on how it came to be that this all-American girl could be ‘brainwashed' into accepting the oppressive religion Islam - a completely unrelated topic!

But these comments should not come as any surprise to us because it is only natural that the average person in the West would question why any woman would turn her back on the secular liberal way of life in favour of Islam when on a daily basis politicians and the media have portrayed Islam as being the enemy of women’s rights, claiming Islam treats women as second class citizens, denies them an education, the right to work, forces them into marriages and of course condones wife –beating.

But people in the West need to wake up to the fact that despite the rhetoric, each year many educated women are reverting to Islam, in fact three quarters of all converts to Islam in the UK are women, which in itself speaks volumes!!! These women have recognised that Islam is the only system capable of guaranteeing for all women happiness, value and rights as enshrined in the Islamic texts.

And so in my opinion the only people who are ‘brainwashed’ are those who continue to blindly accept the false narrative spurned out by the West without going back to the actual model of Islamic governance as implemented via the Caliphate system, a system where daily life for women consisted of full political role, contribution to education, economic security and a secure family unit and where women were valued and viewed as an honour to be protected and treated with respect.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...&type=1&ref=nf


readers' comments:


So shallow to see how threatened people feel due to our 'clothing.' Nobody questions the recent arrested priest's (undercover) wife about her beliefs and dress code when her husband committed sexual assault towards the community who trusted him. Nobody questioned the highly respected rabbi's daughters and wife when he raped his daughters in secret for 10 years (his name was NOT even disclosed or his picture). Nobody questions the family of the leaders who are dropping drones like raindrops on innocent men women children and the elderly on a regular basis. Nobody questions the family of the mental teens and guys who randomly shot toddlers in schools and killed themselves, are we even allowed to label their family for not bringing him up properly for committing such atrocity?

So, why, is this sister being insulted, degraded, undermined, isolated and judged because of an act her husband has been 'suspected' of doing?

Ironic? No, Predictable





Lets not forget the comment of an Islamophobe bigot, Ann Coulter, who says "She should be in prison for wearing hijab"


Reply

~Zaria~
04-30-2013, 04:29 AM
^ Can an interview get any more hateful and islamophobic than this? imsad
Reply

CosmicPathos
04-30-2013, 05:00 AM
^^ "did she get a clitorectomy too?" from the interview.

lmao. Ann is clearly jealous. haha
Reply

CosmicPathos
04-30-2013, 05:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
the actual model of Islamic governance as implemented via the Caliphate system, a system where daily life for women consisted of full political role, contribution to education, economic security and a secure family unit and where women were valued and viewed as an honour to be protected and treated with respect.
That is partially true. Women barely had any role in the caliphate of Khulafa e rashidun. As far as I know, no woman was governor of any city in the vast empire of Umar ra.
Reply

Jedi_Mindset
04-30-2013, 10:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by CosmicPathos
That is partially true. Women barely had any role in the caliphate of Khulafa e rashidun. As far as I know, no woman was governor of any city in the vast empire of Umar ra.
True but that is because a woman can't be a leader or ruler, this is a fact and shouldnt be ignored, however u are turning into a anti-woman type person instead of into a anti-feminist type person. I am against the feminist movements because they go against the roles women have been given by islam and by following the sunnah.

Women certainly had roles in the muslim ummah, how could it work if they didnt had? They also had jobs but different, no manly jobs and infact we had many sisters who were very well learned in the deen and sisters who were scientists.
Reply

Urban Turban
04-30-2013, 10:29 AM
Ann Coulter has a problem with Sister Katherine and views her with disdain for reverting to Islam and marrying Tamerlane even after what he did to her (a case of domestic violence which happens everywhere).

What would Ann Coulter say about Rihanna who is back with Chris Brown again even after he battered her ? (the pics are on the net).

LOL.
Reply

Jedi_Mindset
04-30-2013, 10:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Urban Turban
Ann Coulter has a problem with Sister Katherine and views her with disdain for reverting to Islam and marrying Tamerlane even after what he did to her (a case of domestic violence which happens everywhere).

What would Ann Coulter say about Rihanna who is back with Chris Brown again even after he battered her ? (the pics are on the net).

LOL.
Hahaha good one.
You know those islamophobes are a failure, even many americans themselves dont rally behind them.
Reply

Urban Turban
04-30-2013, 11:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
Hahaha good one.
You know those islamophobes are a failure, even many americans themselves dont rally behind them.
I don't give a **** anymore trying to prove the Independent's and the like (although I greatly appreciate sis islamica and shaadin and others for the work) about our innocence, the kuffar have been at such things to malign us since thousands of years, remember the story of Prophet Musaa (Moses) (peace be upon him) and how the then proud king kharoon accused Him of committing adultery to belittle the great Prophet (pbuh) in front of his people.

That's what the kuffar of today are doing to the Muslims - nothing new - just old apple juice in a new bottle.

I'm more worried about our sister in Islam, Katherine, she needs our support.

I request everyone to make exclusive duas for her and the likes of her across the world. (Its the least we can do, perhaps sadaqah as well)

Leave the kuffar to their devices.

Their lies will undo them sooner than later.
Reply

Jedi_Mindset
04-30-2013, 11:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Urban Turban
I don't give a **** anymore trying to prove the Independent's and the like (although I greatly appreciate sis islamica and shaadin and others for the work) about our innocence, the kuffar have been at such things to malign us since thousands of years, remember the story of Prophet Musaa (Moses) (peace be upon him) and how the then proud king kharoon accused Him of committing adultery to belittle the great Prophet (pbuh) in front of his people.

That's what the kuffar of today are doing to the Muslims - nothing new - just old apple juice in a new bottle.

I'm more worried about our sister in Islam, Katherine, she needs our support.

I request everyone to make exclusive duas for her and the likes of her across the world. (Its the least we can do, perhaps sadaqah as well)

Leave the kuffar to their devices.

Their lies will undo them sooner than later.
Ah independent, well by following a pattern you will know exactly who this guy really is.
What you said is true, however our muslim ummah needs a major fix as well, we aren't respectfull to each other, we should respect each other first if we want to be respected however the kufar will always be displeased with us no matter what. But by helping each other and our communities we might give the ordinary people here other ideas than what they are fed by the media.
Reply

Independent
04-30-2013, 11:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Urban Turban
I don't give a **** anymore trying to prove the Independent's and the like (although I greatly appreciate sis islamica and shaadin and others for the work) about our innocence,
Let me get this straight.

You believe that because I think the Boston bombing was indeed committed by Tamerlan and Dzhokar on the basis of the evidence so far - you think that holding this view is itself Islamophobic?
Reply

Urban Turban
04-30-2013, 11:19 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
Ah independent, well by following a pattern you will know exactly who this guy really is.
What you said is true, however our muslim ummah needs a major fix as well, we aren't respectfull to each other, we should respect each other first if we want to be respected however the kufar will always be displeased with us no matter what. But by helping each other and our communities we might give the ordinary people here other ideas than what they are fed by the media.
(Ref your sig) InshaAllah I'll try to put my cheek on the ground to everyone who professes 'There is no God but God and Muhammed is his messenger' (peace be upon him) and absolutely loves all the Sahabah (ra) ;-)
Reply

islamica
04-30-2013, 11:21 AM
Silence is not an option, not when your silence will bring more harm than good. When you have intolerant, anti-islam bigots ranting all kind of trash then it becomes your duty to stand up against such filth. If this wh.ore wants to imprison every muslimah for wearing hijab, then that concerns me and every muslimah, not just in the US but outside as well since we know the dogs of usa will follower it's lead in other nations too. The daily show video i posted earlier shows all these political islamophobe pundits throwing their own bill of rights out the window when it comes to Muslims.
Reply

Urban Turban
04-30-2013, 11:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Let me get this straight.

You believe that because I think the Boston bombing was indeed committed by Tamerlan and Dzhokar on the basis of the evidence so far - you think that holding this view is itself Islamophobic?
How's the weather bro?
Reply

Independent
04-30-2013, 11:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Urban Turban
How's the weather bro?
Sunny, a glorious day.
Reply

Urban Turban
04-30-2013, 11:25 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Sunny, a glorious day.
Nice, Alhamdulillah.
Reply

Jedi_Mindset
04-30-2013, 11:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Urban Turban
(Ref your sig) InshaAllah I'll try to put my cheek on the ground to everyone who professes 'There is no God but God and Muhammed is his messenger' (peace be upon him) and absolutely loves all the Sahabah (ra) ;-)
To every poor, weak and oppressed person :)



format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
Silence is not an option, not when your silence will bring more harm than good. When you have intolerant, anti-islam bigots ranting all kind of trash then it becomes your duty to stand up against such filth. If this ***** wants to imprison every muslimah for wearing hijab, then that concerns me and every muslimah, not just in the US but outside as well since we know the dogs of usa will follower it's lead in other nations too.
We know, but this is nothing new since 1400 years ago. We are living in a western society, unbelieving society made up by people who only follow their desires or nafs. A society which goes against every aspect of islam. What we should try is to be peacefull with our communities, this is a form of dawah and highly effective so. And the first and foremost: Be respectful between ourselves. How much have we seen muslims fighting each other, quarrel with each other about little, stupid things? Even to the way we psychically fight each other and disrespect each other.

Every muslim in the west should try to do good with muslim and non-muslim.
Reply

islamica
04-30-2013, 11:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Jedi_Mindset
We know, but this is nothing new since 1400 years ago. We are living in a western society, unbelieving society made up by people who only follow their desires or nafs. A society which goes against every aspect of islam. What we should try is to be peacefull with our communities, this is a form of dawah and highly effective so. And the first and foremost: Be respectful between ourselves. How much have we seen muslims fighting each other, quarrel with each other about little, stupid things? Even to the way we psychically fight each other and disrespect each other.
I agree that ummah needs work and the fundamental thing majority lack is proper islamic education. however, in the context of current topic, I'm talking about taking a stand vs having laws passed (like in france) to imprison you just for having a hijab on. Even Allah commands to enjoin good and forbid evil and the Prophet (s) said to stop evil with your hand, if you can't then your mouth, if you can't then at least detest it in your heart and that being the lowest of faith.

History will have to record that the greatest tragedy of this period of social transition was not the strident clamor of the bad people, but the appalling silence of the good people.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

I swore never to be silent whenever and wherever human beings endure suffering and humiliation. We must always take sides. Neutrality helps the oppressor, never the victim. Silence encourages the tormentor, never the tormented.
Elie Wiesel
Reply

islamica
04-30-2013, 11:59 AM
Why is Boston 'terrorism' but not Aurora, Sandy Hook, Tucson and Columbine?

Can an act of violence be called 'terrorism' if the motive is unknown?

Two very disparate commentators, Ali Abunimah and Alan Dershowitz, both raised serious questions over the weekend about a claim that has been made over and over about the bombing of the Boston Marathon: namely, that this was an act of terrorism. Dershowitz was on BBC Radio on Saturday and, citing the lack of knowledge about motive, said (at the 3:15 mark): "It's not even clear under the federal terrorist statutes that it qualifies as an act of terrorism."

Abunimah wrote a superb analysis of whether the bombing fits the US government's definition of "terrorism", noting that "absolutely no evidence has emerged that the Boston bombing suspects acted 'in furtherance of political or social objectives'" or that their alleged act was 'intended to influence or instigate a course of action that furthers a political or social goal.'" Even a former CIA Deputy Director, Phillip Mudd, said on Fox News on Sunday that at this point the bombing seems more like a common crime than an act of terrorism.

Over the last two years, the US has witnessed at least three other episodes of mass, indiscriminate violence that killed more people than the Boston bombings did: the Tucson shooting by Jared Loughner in which 19 people (including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords) were shot, six of whom died; the Aurora movie theater shooting by James Holmes in which 70 people were shot, 12 of whom died; and the Sandy Hook elementary school shooting by Adam Lanza in which 26 people (20 of whom were children) were shot and killed. The word "terrorism" was almost never used to describe that indiscriminate slaughter of innocent people, and none of the perpetrators of those attacks was charged with terrorism-related crimes. A decade earlier, two high school seniors in Colorado, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, used guns and bombs to murder 12 students and a teacher, and almost nobody called that "terrorism" either.

In the Boston case, however, exactly the opposite dynamic prevails. Particularly since the identity of the suspects was revealed, the word "terrorism" is being used by virtually everyone to describe what happened. After initially (and commendably) refraining from using the word, President Obama has since said that "we will investigate any associations that these terrorists may have had" and then said that "on Monday an act of terror wounded dozens and killed three people at the Boston Marathon". But as Abunimah notes, there is zero evidence that either of the two suspects had any connection to or involvement with any designated terrorist organization.

More significantly, there is no known evidence, at least not publicly available, about their alleged motives. Indeed, Obama himself - in the statement he made to the nation after Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was captured on Friday night - said that "tonight there are still many unanswered questions" and included this "among" those "unanswered questions":

"Why did young men who grew up and studied here, as part of our communities and our country, resort to such violence?"

The overarching principle here should be that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is entitled to a presumption of innocence until he is actually proven guilty. As so many cases have proven - from accused (but exonerated) anthrax attacker Stephen Hatfill to accused (but exonerated) Atlanta Olympic bomber Richard Jewell to dozens if not hundreds of Guantanamo detainees accused of being the "worst of the worst" but who were guilty of nothing - people who appear to be guilty based on government accusations and trials-by-media are often completely innocent. Media-presented evidence is no substitute for due process and an adversarial trial.

But beyond that issue, even those assuming the guilt of the Tsarnaev brothers seem to have no basis at all for claiming that this was an act of "terrorism" in a way that would meaningfully distinguish it from Aurora, Sandy Hook, Tucson and Columbine. All we really know about them in this regard is that they identified as Muslim, and that the older brother allegedly watched extremist YouTube videos and was suspected by the Russian government of religious extremism (by contrast, virtually every person who knew the younger brother has emphatically said that he never evinced political or religious extremism). But as Obama himself acknowledged, we simply do not know what motivated them (Obama: "Tonight there are still many unanswered questions. Among them, why did young men who grew up and studied here, as part of our communities and our country, resort to such violence?").

It's certainly possible that it will turn out that, if they are guilty, their prime motive was political or religious. But it's also certainly possible that it wasn't: that it was some combination of mental illness, societal alienation, or other form of internal instability and rage that is apolitical in nature. Until their motive is known, how can this possibly be called "terrorism"? Can acts of violence be deemed "terrorism" without knowing the motive?

This is far more than a semantic question. Whether something is or is not "terrorism" has very substantial political implications, and very significant legal consequences as well. The word "terrorism" is, at this point, one of the most potent in our political lexicon: it single-handedly ends debates, ratchets up fear levels, and justifies almost anything the government wants to do in its name. It's hard not to suspect that the only thing distinguishing the Boston attack from Tucson, Aurora, Sandy Hook and Columbine (to say nothing of the US "shock and awe" attack on Baghdad and the mass killings in Fallujah) is that the accused Boston attackers are Muslim and the other perpetrators are not. As usual, what terrorism really means in American discourse - its operational meaning - is: violence by Muslims against Americans and their allies. For the manipulative use of the word "terrorism", see the scholarship of NYU's Remi Brulin and the second-to-last section here.

I was on Democracy Now this morning discussing many of these issues, as well as the legal and civil libertarian concerns raised by this case, and that segment can be viewed here (a transcript will be posted here later today):

http://www.democracynow.org/2013/4/2...arathon_arrest


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ora-sandy-hook
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-30-2013, 12:02 PM
There is no God but God and Muhammad is his messenger (on whom be peace). I'm no expert on the biographies of all the individual sahabah but as far as I can tell they're all okay with me.

With that said, Urban Turban, please lay off Independent already and start arguing with disbelievers in the ways that are best as we are commanded to.
Reply

جوري
04-30-2013, 12:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
^ Can an interview get any more hateful and islamophobic than this? imsad
someone ought to break it to that she male that Jesus was a middle easterner with a towel on his head! Not sure how she'll take it- she's better suited for Odin or Thor!
Reply

Vito
04-30-2013, 12:21 PM
This about sums up how I feel about the whole thing:





I might be many things but, sheep isn't one of them
Reply

Urban Turban
04-30-2013, 01:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
There is no God but God and Muhammad is his messenger (on whom be peace). I'm no expert on the biographies of all the individual sahabah but as far as I can tell they're all okay with me.

With that said, Urban Turban, please lay off Independent already and start arguing with disbelievers in the ways that are best as we are commanded to.
Asking about the weather is wrong?
Reply

islamica
04-30-2013, 01:29 PM
Female DNA found on Boston bomb as Muslim convert Misha denies links to attacks

THE FBI has found female DNA on at least one of the Boston Marathon bombs, but they have not determined whose it is or if they had a female accomplice.

The presence of genetic material does not necessarily mean a woman helped build the pressure-cooker bombs, said the law enforcement official, who spoke on condition of anonymity.

The genetic material could have come from a woman who was in the room where the devices were built, or from a cashier at a store where one of the bomb parts was purchased, the official said.

The test results have prompted investigators to look more closely at women who may have had contact with the alleged bombers, Tamerlan Tsarnaev and his younger brother, Dzhokhar Tsarnaev.

Investigators are collecting DNA samples from some women who were close to the pair to provide a comparison.

On Monday, investigators visited the Rhode Island home of the family of Katherine Russell, the widow of the elder brother, who was killed in a shoot-out with police on April 19. Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was wounded but captured, and faces federal charges of using a weapon of mass destruction.

--

they can take this anyway they want, frame the mother, the wife, sister or anyone they don't like.
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-30-2013, 03:04 PM
Asking about the weather is wrong?

Asking about the weather?? Are you kidding me???

I was actually referring more to your comparing Independent to Pharaoh and calling him a liar and a kafir.
Reply

IAmZamzam
04-30-2013, 03:14 PM
Why is Boston 'terrorism' but not Aurora, Sandy Hook, Tucson and Columbine?

Can an act of violence be called 'terrorism' if the motive is unknown?

Two very disparate commentators, Ali Abunimah and Alan Dershowitz, both raised serious questions over the weekend about a claim that has been made over and over about the bombing of the Boston Marathon: namely, that this was an act of terrorism. Dershowitz was on BBC Radio on Saturday and, citing the lack of knowledge about motive, said (at the 3:15 mark): "It's not even clear under the federal terrorist statutes that it qualifies as an act of terrorism."

Abunimah wrote a superb analysis of whether the bombing fits the US government's definition of "terrorism", noting that "absolutely no evidence has emerged that the Boston bombing suspects acted 'in furtherance of political or social objectives'" or that their alleged act was 'intended to influence or instigate a course of action that furthers a political or social goal.'" Even a former CIA Deputy Director, Phillip Mudd, said on Fox News on Sunday that at this point the bombing seems more like a common crime than an act of terrorism.

Over the last two years, the US has witnessed at least three other episodes of mass, indiscriminate violence that killed more people than the Boston bombings did: the Tucson shooting by Jared Loughner in which 19 people (including Rep. Gabrielle Giffords) were shot, six of whom died; the Aurora movie theater shooting by James Holmes in which 70 people were shot, 12 of whom died; and the Sandy Hook elementary school shooting by Adam Lanza in which 26 people (20 of whom were children) were shot and killed. The word "terrorism" was almost never used to describe that indiscriminate slaughter of innocent people, and none of the perpetrators of those attacks was charged with terrorism-related crimes. A decade earlier, two high school seniors in Colorado, Eric Harris and Dylan Klebold, used guns and bombs to murder 12 students and a teacher, and almost nobody called that "terrorism" either.

In the Boston case, however, exactly the opposite dynamic prevails. Particularly since the identity of the suspects was revealed, the word "terrorism" is being used by virtually everyone to describe what happened. After initially (and commendably) refraining from using the word, President Obama has since said that "we will investigate any associations that these terrorists may have had" and then said that "on Monday an act of terror wounded dozens and killed three people at the Boston Marathon". But as Abunimah notes, there is zero evidence that either of the two suspects had any connection to or involvement with any designated terrorist organization.

More significantly, there is no known evidence, at least not publicly available, about their alleged motives. Indeed, Obama himself - in the statement he made to the nation after Dzhokhar Tsarnaev was captured on Friday night - said that "tonight there are still many unanswered questions" and included this "among" those "unanswered questions":

"Why did young men who grew up and studied here, as part of our communities and our country, resort to such violence?"

The overarching principle here should be that Dzhokhar Tsarnaev is entitled to a presumption of innocence until he is actually proven guilty. As so many cases have proven - from accused (but exonerated) anthrax attacker Stephen Hatfill to accused (but exonerated) Atlanta Olympic bomber Richard Jewell to dozens if not hundreds of Guantanamo detainees accused of being the "worst of the worst" but who were guilty of nothing - people who appear to be guilty based on government accusations and trials-by-media are often completely innocent. Media-presented evidence is no substitute for due process and an adversarial trial.

But beyond that issue, even those assuming the guilt of the Tsarnaev brothers seem to have no basis at all for claiming that this was an act of "terrorism" in a way that would meaningfully distinguish it from Aurora, Sandy Hook, Tucson and Columbine. All we really know about them in this regard is that they identified as Muslim, and that the older brother allegedly watched extremist YouTube videos and was suspected by the Russian government of religious extremism (by contrast, virtually every person who knew the younger brother has emphatically said that he never evinced political or religious extremism). But as Obama himself acknowledged, we simply do not know what motivated them (Obama: "Tonight there are still many unanswered questions. Among them, why did young men who grew up and studied here, as part of our communities and our country, resort to such violence?").

It's certainly possible that it will turn out that, if they are guilty, their prime motive was political or religious. But it's also certainly possible that it wasn't: that it was some combination of mental illness, societal alienation, or other form of internal instability and rage that is apolitical in nature. Until their motive is known, how can this possibly be called "terrorism"? Can acts of violence be deemed "terrorism" without knowing the motive?

This is far more than a semantic question. Whether something is or is not "terrorism" has very substantial political implications, and very significant legal consequences as well. The word "terrorism" is, at this point, one of the most potent in our political lexicon: it single-handedly ends debates, ratchets up fear levels, and justifies almost anything the government wants to do in its name. It's hard not to suspect that the only thing distinguishing the Boston attack from Tucson, Aurora, Sandy Hook and Columbine (to say nothing of the US "shock and awe" attack on Baghdad and the mass killings in Fallujah) is that the accused Boston attackers are Muslim and the other perpetrators are not. As usual, what terrorism really means in American discourse - its operational meaning - is: violence by Muslims against Americans and their allies. For the manipulative use of the word "terrorism", see the scholarship of NYU's Remi Brulin and the second-to-last section here.

I was on Democracy Now this morning discussing many of these issues, as well as the legal and civil libertarian concerns raised by this case, and that segment can be viewed here (a transcript will be posted here later today).


I have just tweeted a link to this article to over a thousand followers.
Reply

titus
04-30-2013, 03:22 PM
You believe that because I think the Boston bombing was indeed committed by Tamerlan and Dzhokar on the basis of the evidence so far - you think that holding this view is itself Islamophobic?
So it seems.

When any act like this is carried out there are many Muslims that immediately want to jump in (before they even know the facts) and "prove" that Muslims did not do it. Then the game becomes finding anyone on the internet that supports their claim (whether it be Alex Jones or David Duke or any other disreputable person) and claim that they are the only ones with the fact and that everyone else in the world is brainwashed.

Not it's time for my amateur psychology: These people are in a deep victim mentality mode. They believe that being a good Muslim today means portraying Muslims of victims of things beyond their control. The bad things that are happening to Muslims around the world are all the result of external forces. They seem to thrive on Muslims being victims and anything that opposes that view (such as 9/11 or Boston) must be false in order to maintain their mindset. The opposite of this is also true, in that if you deny that Muslims were a victim then you are part of the external force and hate Islam.

The next step is to point out Islamaphobia whenever they can and denouncing those who stay silent about it, while at the same time not commenting on men such as Bin Laden and others that preach violence against the West. When they do comment on them it is never to denounce, but in order to keep their false reality, they claim that such men either really work for the enemy to make Muslims look bad, or call them Sheik and say that the West is slandering them and actually hold them up as heroes.

The Ann Coulters of the world are idiots and hypocrites. Out of one side of their mouth they talk about freedom, then out of the other side of their mouth they make it clear it's only intended for people that look and think like them.

More amateur psychology from me: Muslims teach themselves of the superiority of their religion and they teach of the Golden Age when there was an Islamic State. Then they look at the world today and they see the state of Muslims around the world and see that it does not jibe with what they were taught. The easy way out then is to blame external factors. The state of the Muslims of the world is because of the USA, and Israel, and Russia, and whoever else they want to blame. It is never because of anything Muslims have done (except maybe Muslims aren't pious enough and that is why....).

So Independent, by claiming that a couple of Muslims killed Americans it destroys the victim mindset. It turns it on it's head. It lessens their sense of righteousness when exclaiming what victims Muslims are, and therefore makes the person saying it anti-Muslim.

The fact that nothing could be further from the truth is irrelevant.
Reply

~Zaria~
04-30-2013, 03:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
When any act like this is carried out there are many Muslims that immediately want to jump in (before they even know the facts) and "prove" that Muslims did not do it. Then the game becomes finding anyone on the internet that supports their claim (whether it be Alex Jones or David Duke or any other disreputable person) and claim that they are the only ones with the fact and that everyone else in the world is brainwashed.

I think you missed this post:


format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
The interesting part of these 'conspiracy theories' is that they are mostly driven by non-Muslims.

If you consider the videos on YouTube, most of the comments there-under, the various 'conspiracy' web-pages,etc - there are very few Muslims, if any, who are themselves finding the discrepancies with the official story.

So, this is not about trying to defend the alleged bombers simply because they are muslim.

You see, theres a growing number of people who are awakening to the reality of media lies, government agendas and the truth that lies behind the so-called 'War on terror'.

And I find it just amazing, when I see a non-muslim, who has taken the initiative to draw the publics attention to these types of findings - and by doing so, having the indirect effect of clearing the face of islam and bringing focus on the many injustices perpetrated upon the muslim world.


You are right.
That was amateur psychology :P
Reply

Independent
04-30-2013, 04:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
The interesting part of these 'conspiracy theories' is that they are mostly driven by non-Muslims.
This is true in the west, but what about the Arab world? What happens there? Is this not partly a reflection of language? When you look at figures for percentage of people who believe that 9/11 was a western conspiracy, the highest numbers are in Arab countries.

In the west the spokesman are guys like Alex Jones, David Icke, Steven Jones, David Ray Griffin, Webster Tarpley and others. What's noticeable about them, is that this is their profession. If they don't see an event as a conspiracy, they are out of a job.

The big difference is that, although they may agree with Muslims who believe that there is a conspiracy going on, they draw completely different conclusions about who's responsible. It really is outstanding how the same 'undeniable evidence' leads to so many different ends. They don't really agree with you at all. Their 'official view' is every bit as incompatible with your view as it is with the government's.

For many Americans, it's not about a 'war on Islam' but the old battle between federal control and local freedoms. This makes the US very different from, say, European attitudes and it's a big reason why Europeans are less credulous about conspiracies. Americans score high for belief in a wide range of conspiracies, some of which are frankly bizarre.
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جوري
04-30-2013, 05:29 PM
The New York Times today reports that "United States officials said they were increasingly certain that the two suspects had acted on their own, but were looking for any hints that someone had trained or inspired them." It also reports that "The FBI is broadening its global investigation in search of a motive." There's no reason for the FBI to search for a motive. They should just go talk to Andrew Sullivan. He already found it.
In sum, neither the President nor the FBI - by their own admission - know the motive here nor have evidence showing it, but Andrew Sullivan, along with hordes of others yelling "terrorism" and "jihad", insist that they do. That's the special species of rank irrationality that uniquely shapes public US discourse when the issue is Muslims.
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جوري
04-30-2013, 05:32 PM
I usually forgo comments but liked this one by one of the commentators:
@tweetsub - 2 sides of the same coin.
What Glenn is getting at here is what in security studies is known as the schism between Human Security and National Security. Terrorism, in its classical interpretation (and I acknowledge that there is a clear dispute over how the term is used), is an act of violence in order to advance a political cause within or against a state (National) actor. If there is no political motive or objective, then it is an act of violence against individuals, and is thus a human security issue, not a national security issue; there is no perceived challenge or threat to the state. So, in the strictest literal sense, the Boston attacks were certainly terrifying, but until the motive is ascertained, they cannot be considered terrorism.
It's a similar difference between murder and assassination: JFK was assassinated, Tupac Shakur was murdered.
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~Zaria~
04-30-2013, 05:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
This is true in the west, but what about the Arab world? What happens there? Is this not partly a reflection of language? When you look at figures for percentage of people who believe that 9/11 was a western conspiracy, the highest numbers are in Arab countries.

In the west the spokesman are guys like Alex Jones, David Icke, Steven Jones, David Ray Griffin, Webster Tarpley and others. What's noticeable about them, is that this is their profession. If they don't see an event as a conspiracy, they are out of a job.

The big difference is that, although they may agree with Muslims who believe that there is a conspiracy going on, they draw completely different conclusions about who's responsible. It really is outstanding how the same 'undeniable evidence' leads to so many different ends. They don't really agree with you at all. Their 'official view' is every bit as incompatible with your view as it is with the government's.

For many Americans, it's not about a 'war on Islam' but the old battle between federal control and local freedoms. This makes the US very different from, say, European attitudes and it's a big reason why Europeans are less credulous about conspiracies. Americans score high for belief in a wide range of conspiracies, some of which are frankly bizarre.

^ You are only focussing on the 'big names' in the 'conspiracy world'.

If you do a quick search on the web and on youtube - e.g try: 'Boston Bombings conspiracy' - I promise you, that you will easily find ~90% of the authors/ video-makers to be non-muslim.
Who have nothing to gain - this is not their profession, nor do they have any loyalty to islam.
They are just simple citzens who are seeing the world for what it is, and are making every effort to verify mainstream news for themselves.

The perception is not only a battle for 'local freedoms' as you mention.

It goes far deeper than that.
Once you begin to realise this, you will not turn back.

(Have you watched the videos that I had previously suggested to you, as well as the books?
If not, its never too late.....)
Reply

titus
04-30-2013, 05:42 PM
I think you missed this post:
No, I saw it. You should also know that the people leading the charge for the belief in Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster and that aliens were captured by the US government in Roswell are mainly non-Muslim also. That doesn't give it any more credence in my mind.

I always know there will be crackpots that will yell conspiracy at every single event like this (see the Newtown shooting as another recent sickening example). I also know that as soon as a Muslim is named as a suspect that forums such as this, and in Muslim populations around the world, the conspiracy machine will go into fifth gear, and the more anti-American government or anti-Israel the person the more likely they will fight to convince others of the conspiracy.

When the bombings occurred I hoped that it was not a Muslim group that was behind it. I knew that if it were that the Muslim haters would come out of the woodworks, but I also knew that too many Muslims would become ostriches with their heads stuck in the stand denying reality. Muslims want to believe that they are the good guys and the others (USA, Israel, "The West") are the bad guys, so when events like this happen in which their black and white view of the world is shaken they revert to distorting facts and reality.

Believe it or not the world is not as cut and dried as some would like to believe. The US government can do very bad things, and it can do very good things. Muslims can do very bad things and can do very good things. That is the way of the world, and trying to cram it into a mold that doesn't fit does nobody any good.

If people are being brainwashed it is not the people watching mass media who believe the official story. It is the men like these two that spent their time watching jihadi videos online and listening to so-called holy men who not only condone but encourage violence against Americans, Jews and anyone else they consider the enemy and it is the people that want to deny reality and facts in order to propagate their inaccurate world view.

I don't tend to see the world in black and white. I know that sometimes my government does reprehensible things and I don't deny it. I don't like it, but I know my history and I do what I can to help ensure it won't happen again, although I am a realist and I know that they will make mistakes from time to time. I don't see the same attitude from many Muslims that post on these forums. Their instinct is to constantly deny the truth use conspiracy theories in order to convert the facts to their world view. I find that dangerous.
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جوري
04-30-2013, 05:45 PM
Problem unfortunately with some of the members here is their clear desire to bring everything down to a low common denominator, not over complicate and not scratch beneath the surface. Perhaps it reflects their educational, political and social stratum- I have no problems with that. I have no problem even with the run of the mill inflammatory and almost theatrical main stream corporate media that feeds it, if they are happy with it and it is happy with them. What I do have a problem with is the childlike intellectual bullying, name calling, injudicious scripts & assumptions, which are somehow to subscribe to or fall under a label or another.
At the end of the day it really doesn't matter who thinks what as the wise scholar said, ''la taktarith be'a7ad''!
Probably written to reassure the self or fulfil a duty one that perhaps comes with benefits!
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~Zaria~
04-30-2013, 05:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
No, I saw it. You should also know that the people leading the charge for the belief in Bigfoot, the Loch Ness Monster and that aliens were captured by the US government in Roswell are mainly non-Muslim also. That doesn't give it any more credence in my mind.
As sister Shadin has said, this is an over-generalisation.
There are very many level-headed people, who do not hold onto such fables.....AND are able to see the world without the foggy lenses of leading media networks.

Ps. have a look at the videos by Youtuber 'StormsCloudsGathering' (non-muslim) - you may learn a lot from here, God-willing.

format_quote Originally Posted by titus
.....but I also knew that too many Muslims would become ostriches with their heads stuck in the stand denying reality. Muslims want to believe that they are the good guys and the others (USA, Israel, "The West") are the bad guys, so when events like this happen in which their black and white view of the world is shaken they revert to distorting facts and reality.
Again, where is your proof for this.
If these stories were driven by muslims, you would have a stronger case.


format_quote Originally Posted by titus
If people are being brainwashed it is not the people watching mass media who believe the official story. It is the men like these two that spent their time watching jihadi videos online and listening to so-called holy men who not only condone but encourage violence against Americans, Jews and anyone else they consider the enemy and it is the people that want to deny reality and facts in order to propagate their inaccurate world view.
Clearly, 'mass media' has already formulated your ideas of these two young men.
How would you know about their love for 'jihadi videos' and 'listening to so-called holy men'......
(Pls do not tell us about Tamerlans alleged youtube page that hosts a folder called 'Terror', and which now stand empty. This is not any form of proof. Thanks.)
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Independent
04-30-2013, 07:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
If you do a quick search on the web and on youtube - e.g try: 'Boston Bombings conspiracy' - I promise you, that you will easily find ~90% of the authors/ video-makers to be non-muslim.
I know, but most non muslims think it's a conspiracy for some other cause, not part of a world anti-islam agenda.

This represents the most extraordinary alliance between people who normally should have nothing in common with each other and i still can't get over how wild this is. Right wing patriots, some liberal groups, nationalists - and now many Muslims. All in the same boat, although they don't like to admit it. Muslims are the latecomers to this but they are rapidly taking over the whole genre through sheer numbers. As for a culprit, blaming the Jews is the most common theme but by no means the only one.

For many Muslims, this political belief is actually a part of their religion, and to contradict it is (in their eyes) an attack on Islam itself.

For the west (and for world peace) this is a disaster because the west cannot undeclare a secret war which no one knows about and which it never declared in the first place. So long as you believe this, there really is nowhere to go on this one.

format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
They are just simple citzens who are seeing the world for what it is, and are making every effort to verify mainstream news for themselves.
They can no more be described as 'simple citizens' than the majority who don't hold these views, and who also 'see the world for what it is'. A group which remains in the large majority, except in some Arab countries.

format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
(Have you watched the videos that I had previously suggested to you, as well as the books?
If not, its never too late.....)
I did watch a number of them and I was disappointed, because I admire your piety and I expected something that might challenge me. In the event, unfortunately I found them very far from credible. Yet, I have to understand that you do admire them and find them believable.

You may think whatever you wish about me, but I cannot suddenly suspend all the critical faculties that I would normally apply to any other issue. I can't look for holes in the so-called 'mainstream view' and then ignore gaping absurdities in alternative accounts. (I have yet to see anyone, either on this forum or anywhere else, offer a credible alternative narrative for the Boston bombs - all they do is look for holes in the official account, even if it contradicts their own story.)

Back to the videos. When it got to the bit about the hidden meanings in the UK flag, and the stuff about Starbucks meaning 'star' (as in flag of Israel) and 'bucks' as in 'we give Israel money' I really could not continue. I simply don't understand why anyone would find that explanation more credible than the story the company itself gives, that they named themselves after the coffee-loving character in Moby Dick. He was called...wait for it...Starbuck. Coincidence? I don't think so!

I hate the way this conspiracy is dividing Muslims from the rest of the world and trying to understand how it came about is the main reason i joined this forum last year.
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IAmZamzam
04-30-2013, 07:21 PM
Bigfoot.

The Loch Ness Monster.

Lizard people wearing human skin and disguising themselves as major political figures.

I shudder to think what your definition of “seeing yourself as a realist” is, titus.

If you’re allowed to play amateur psychologist then so am I. How many times in your life have you done this very same thing regarding theism? Made the inevitable comparisons with the flying spaghetti monster and the invisible pink unicorn? Or maybe Santa Claus? Or leprechauns in your attic? Fairies at the bottom of the garden?

Here it comes. Now you’re going to argue with me for thirteen pages about how you’re not making fun of anyone and those are all very legitimate, utterly nonjudgmental points. Purely intellectual arguments. You could just as well have been stating it as a formula for all the difference it made. I suppose you’ve one again just failed to express yourself properly?

“Anyone who has spent much time engaging members of Skeptics’ organizations knows about their strong inclination toward ridicule and ad hominem criticism of those with differing viewpoints.” (scientificexploration.org)

Unfortunately anyone who has spent enough time arguing with these people will be just as familiar with how firmly in denial they are about these tendencies as well. Until you admit to yourself that you have a problem you will never be able to overcome it. But you will never do that because said problem is perennial and probably subconscious:

“The unbelievers say, ‘What, when we are dust, and our fathers, shall we indeed be brought forth? We have been promised this, and our fathers before; this is naught but the fairy-tales of the ancients.’” (Qur’an 27:67-68, Arberry)

The situation never changed in The Prophet’s own day, it has never changed since, and I don’t reckon it will change now. Indeed, the internet has only made it twenty times worse.

You want to talk black-and-white, cut-and-dried views of the world? How am I not to get the impression at this point that in your eyes every single paranormal or supernatural belief of any kind is precisely on par with belief in Bigfoot, fairies, flying spaghetti monsters and lizard people along with conspiracy theories? Why not? There’s no “evidence” for any of it so it’s all the same to you. And a little bit of arrogance is only natural in a situation like that. If that doesn’t count as cut-and-dried then what on earth could?

Of course I could very well be wrong about all of this. But that’s the hazard of playing amateur psychologist about someone you don’t even know and can do little more than make broad generalizations about, is it not?

Anyway returning to the topic I’m beginning to wonder if we’ve all been spending far too much time bickering about all of these things and not enough time sending our hearts out to the victims and giving these people our duas. Perhaps we could end the thread and start a new one just for that. There’s been far too much nastiness here—and as you can see I’m probably as guilty as anyone.
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Urban Turban
04-30-2013, 07:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
Asking about the weather is wrong?

Asking about the weather?? Are you kidding me???

I was actually referring more to your comparing Independent to Pharaoh and calling him a liar and a kafir.
Really?

---------------------------------

Just for the record...does anyone remember Craig Monteilh? The FBI informant who pretended to be a Muslim and talked of Jihad...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/mar/20/fbi-informant


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titus
04-30-2013, 07:35 PM
If these stories were driven by muslims, you would have a stronger case.
My point is that Muslims are more likely to fall for these tales, not that they necessarily propagate them. The facts back that up if you look at polls about conspiracy theories 9/11.

Ps. have a look at the videos by Youtuber 'StormsCloudsGathering' (non-muslim) - you may learn a lot from here, God-willing.
I watched one of them. It's a mixture of truth and conjecture to come to a conclusion. Put just enough facts in it, then connect the dots to make the picture they want to believe.

How would you know about their love for 'jihadi videos' and 'listening to so-called holy men'......
Maybe I should get my news and world view from Youtube videos?

I do know that he was kicked out of a Mosque after he started yelling at the Imam who was praising Martin Luther King (witnessed by Muslims who I assume you would not call part of the conspiracy). His Youtube account had videos by Feiz Mohammad who calls for violent jihad and is known for his hatred of Jews. If these are the kind of men he is listening to would planting a bomb be any surprise, really?

If you want to look at the facts then please, let's do. Let's go over exactly what had to be done for this to be successful:

1) They had to pick two patsies and then somehow make sure they were videotaped at the bomb site right before the bombs went off.
2) They had to plant eyewitnesses in the crowd to speak to the media about how they saw the men not look back when the bombs went off, unlike everyone else.
3) They had to get the two patsies to leave without their backpacks so that the before/after pics lined up.
4) They had to let the two patsies roam free for a couple of days then post their pictures for the whole world to see. This would allow the patsies to make calls to lawyers and family to declare their innocence, none of which was done. Don't you find that suspicious?
5) They arrest one of the men while a camera is filming it, then hold a fake shootout in another location so that they can claim the patsy was run over by his brother.
6) With one patsy left they make the dumbest decision of all anyone running a conspiracy of this scale... they capture the other patsy alive. Now one wrong word from him and the conspiracy is in danger. What is their motivation for this?
Are they so sure that their torture techniques will make him tell their version? How do they get his lawyers in on the conspiracy or were they a part of it to begin with?
Or is he a part of the conspiracy who is willing to spend the rest of his life in jail in order to help the conspirators?
Or are the conspirators such nice people that they don't mind killing and maiming a bunch of innocent people, but can't handle killing the younger brother?
7) They had to make public the fact that the FBI had questioned him before and not considered him a threat, and since the FBI is obviously in on it the that means part of the conspiracy involves making themselves look so incompetent that members of the US congress are calling for hearings and investigations into it.
8) Let's also make it part of the conspiracy to make the US government look even more incompetent by having the Russians (who may or may not be part of the conspiracy) point out that they asked for one of the patsies to be investigated long ago.
9) They also have to make sure that the media are all in line, which is easy because nobody in the main stream media would ever want to uncover something that would make the government look bad. There are certainly no examples of that in US history, just ask Woodward and Bernstein. One single rogue reporter could easily find out the truth on Youtube but we know they will be too afraid to investigate it because.... why exactly?


Now I know that none of this will sound absurd to you most likely. If you think this was a conspiracy all I can say is that it was one horribly planned conspiracy that will only be uncovered, as all conspiracies like this are, by people on the internet.

I also love the fact that "false flag" was being called the same day of the bombing when nothing was known. Ever since it has been a scramble to find evidence to back up the conclusion and not a scramble to look at evidence and come to a conclusion.
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titus
04-30-2013, 07:43 PM
Here it comes. Now you’re going to argue with me for thirteen pages about how you’re not making fun of anyone and those are all very legitimate, utterly nonjudgmental points. Purely intellectual arguments. You could just as well have been stating it as a formula for all the difference it made. I suppose you’ve one again just failed to express yourself properly?
Am I judgmental about people that believe in things when I think the evidence points the other way? Yes, it's true, I can't help it. And yes, I can be a bit snarky at times and occasionally go too far.

Being judgmental is human nature. Many on these forums have tried to judge me simply because I am a non-Muslim posting on a Muslim message board (or simply because I am a non-Muslim). I understand that and deal with it, even the ones that are a little too defensive because they don't know me yet.
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جوري
04-30-2013, 08:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
As sister Shadin has said, this is an over-generalisation.
Not just an over generalization but every other non related hogwash strung together. There's no taking any case for its particular parts and individual circumstances and evidence- NO, if you don't believe in invincible passports then by same token you believe in lizard people and big foot.. Then it becomes a matter or 'beliefs' not facts..

:w:
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titus
04-30-2013, 09:07 PM
You seem obsessed with this passport.

Which, to you, is more unbelievable: that a passport survived a plane wreck, or that a passport did not survive a plane wreck?

If you are claiming that some ID surviving a plane crash is evidence of the US or Israel being behind a cover up of the wreck then those countries must be behind every single plane wreck I am aware of.
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جوري
04-30-2013, 10:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
You seem obsessed with this passport.
When something that comical makes it to a court of law, you have to take notice no? should we sweep the passport under the rug because it is oh so embarrassing?


format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Which, to you, is more unbelievable: that a passport survived a plane wreck, or that a passport did not survive a plane wreck?
non questions merit non answers!


format_quote Originally Posted by titus
If you are claiming that some ID surviving a plane crash is evidence of the US or Israel being behind a cover up of the wreck then those countries must be behind every single plane wreck I am aware of.
What are you ranting about this time? Don't pose inane Q's and offer a poorly sardonic replies in the same breath if you're actually interested in a dialogue.. which obviously you're not!

best,
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titus
05-01-2013, 12:39 AM
Actually it was a very simple question. You seem to be under the impression that a passport surviving a plane wreck not plausible and is a sign of a conspiracy, I was simply asking a question to see if that was the case.

The fact that you evaded answering it tells me all I need to know.
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جوري
05-01-2013, 12:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Actually it was a very simple question. You seem to be under the impression that a passport surviving a plane wreck not plausible and is a sign of a conspiracy, I was simply asking a question to see if that was the case.

The fact that you evaded answering it tells me all I need to know.
I don't subscribe to conspiracies. That's your answer for the tough questions, just sweep anything you can't explain with logic under a catch all term. Secondly what you know or don't know is utterly inconsequential to me. You're a complete none entity in my book, your beliefs, wants, hopes, visions, understanding, validation, mockery, praise is of utter no consequence!

best,
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titus
05-01-2013, 12:56 AM
I don't subscribe to conspiracies.
Yet you believe that people conspired to destroy the World Trade Center and the Pentagon and blame it on Muslims. You believe that all the presidents (except one) are all related and hand chosen by somebody to be president. And you believe that part of the reason for the Boston bombings was so that these shadow leaders could practice implementing martial law.

It sounds to me like you subscribe to a lot of conspiracy theories, especially considering these are just the ones that you brought up on this thread. Who knows how many others you subscribe to.
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جوري
05-01-2013, 01:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Yet you believe
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
You believe that all
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
And you believe
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
you subscribe to
I think I earned the right to call you a silly little man who likes to soliloquize!


best,
Reply

titus
05-01-2013, 01:08 AM
I just find it ironic that someone who has posted multiple conspiracy theories then claims that they don't subscribe to conspiracy theories.

When I point this out to you instead of explaining you resort to personal insults. So be it.
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جوري
05-01-2013, 01:16 AM
Everything has been amply explained to you (13 pages long in fact) you refuse to acknowledge any voice of reason other your personal cognitive conservatism and that of like minded individuals whose only claim to fame is to make derogatory remarks and poison the well, make catch all phrases, string incoherent nonsense together, in fact that's how you made your grand entrance which was later moderated. Intellectual bullying, name calling, harassment, speaking for the other party are all indeed classified under trolling and I have reported you. There's no amount of evidence that will be satisfactory to you nor should anyone waste their breath.

best,
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IAmZamzam
05-01-2013, 01:19 AM
Being judgmental is human nature. Many on these forums have tried to judge me simply because I am a non-Muslim posting on a Muslim message board (or simply because I am a non-Muslim). I understand that and deal with it, even the ones that are a little too defensive because they don’t know me yet.

I would place the odds at about one in three that this is more of your snark and you were trying to be subtle and clever and I’m supposed to be one of the “too defensive ones who don’t know you yet” but the fact of the matter is I know you a wee bit better than you may think. I wasn’t always going by this name.

I have taken another look at those pictures of the boat and Independent’s defense that it’s impossible to see clearly enough from them that there is no pool of blood is an exaggeration—but then again we don’t have any context for the pictures and if I were in that situation I’d definitely be pressing my shirt up against my wound as hard as I could, and then the tarpaulin. It’s the only way to survive. Still, it's interesting.

I suggest we all follow Snopes for the time being. They’ve had little in the way of articles during the short time so far but they’ve covered this and that. It’s a very reliable website. They’re highly unbiased and almost never wrong. If anyone can be trusted not to fall for some alleged conspiracy, it’s Snopes.
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GodIsAll
05-01-2013, 01:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
someone ought to break it to that she male that Jesus was a middle easterner with a towel on his head! Not sure how she'll take it- she's better suited for Odin or Thor!
But Jesus had light brown hair and blue eyes! No turban! Just look at all of the paintings! ^o)
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islamica
05-01-2013, 02:56 AM
The same motive for anti-US 'terrorism' is cited over and over

Ignoring the role played by US actions is dangerously self-flattering and self-delusional

News reports purporting to describe what Dzhokhar Tsarnaev told US interrogators should, for several reasons, be taken with a huge grain of salt. The sources for this information are anonymous, they work for the US government, the statements were obtained with no lawyer present and no Miranda warnings given, and Tsarnaev is "grievously wounded", presumably quite medicated, and barely able to speak. That the motives for these attacks are still unclear has been acknowledged even by Alan Dershowitz last week ("It's not even clear under the federal terrorism statute that this qualifies as an act of terrorism") and Jeffrey Goldberg on Friday ("it is not yet clear, despite preliminary indications, that these men were, in fact, motivated by radical Islam").

Those caveats to the side, the reports about what motivated the Boston suspects are entirely unsurprising and, by now, quite familiar:

"The two suspects in the Boston bombing that killed three and injured more than 260 were motivated by the US wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, officials told the Washington Post.

"Dzhokhar Tsarnaev, 'the 19-year-old suspect in the Boston Marathon bombings, has told interrogators that the American wars in Iraq and Afghanistan motivated him and his brother to carry out the attack,' the Post writes, citing 'US officials familiar with the interviews.'"

In the last several years, there have been four other serious attempted or successful attacks on US soil by Muslims, and in every case, they emphatically all say the same thing: that they were motivated by the continuous, horrific violence brought by the US and its allies to the Muslim world - violence which routinely kills and oppresses innocent men, women and children:

Attempted "underwear bomber" Umar Farouk Abdulmutallab upon pleading guilty:

"I had an agreement with at least one person to attack the United States in retaliation for US support of Israel and in retaliation of the killing of innocent and civilian Muslim populations in Palestine, especially in the blockade of Gaza, and in retaliation for the killing of innocent and civilian Muslim populations in Yemen, Iraq, Somalia, Afghanistan and beyond, most of them women, children, and noncombatants."

Attempted Times Square bomber Faisal Shahzad, the first Pakistani-American involved in such a plot, upon pleading guilty:


"If the United States does not get out of Iraq, Afghanistan and other countries controlled by Muslims, he said, 'we will be attacking US', adding that Americans 'only care about their people, but they don't care about the people elsewhere in the world when they die' . . . .

"As soon as he was taken into custody May 3 at John F. Kennedy International Airport, onboard a flight to Dubai, the Pakistani-born Shahzad told agents that he was motivated by opposition to US policy in the Muslim world, officials said."

When he was asked by the federal judge presiding over his case how he could possibly have been willing to detonate bombs that would kill innocent children, he replied:

"Well, the drone hits in Afghanistan and Iraq, they don't see children, they don't see anybody. They kill women, children, they kill everybody. It's a war, and in war, they kill people. They're killing all Muslims. . . .

"I am part of the answer to the US terrorizing the Muslim nations and the Muslim people. And, on behalf of that, I'm avenging the attack. Living in the United States, Americans only care about their own people, but they don't care about the people elsewhere in the world when they die."

Emails and other communications obtained by the US document how Shahzad transformed from law-abiding, middle-class naturalized American into someone who felt compelled to engage in violence as a result of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, drone attacks, Israeli violence against Palestinians and Muslims generally, Guantanamo and torture, at one point asking a friend: "Can you tell me a way to save the oppressed? And a way to fight back when rockets are fired at us and Muslim blood flows?"

Attempted NYC subway bomber Najibullah Zazi, the first Afghan-American involved in such a plot, upon pleading guilty
:


"Your Honor, during the spring and summer of 2008, I conspired with others to travel to Afghanistan to join the Taliban and fight against the U.S. military and its allies. . . . During the training, Al Qaeda leaders asked us to return to the United States and conduct martyrdom operation. We agreed to this plan. I did so because of my feelings about what the United States was doing in Afghanistan."

Fort Hood shooter Nidal Hasan:

"Part of his disenchantment was his deep and public opposition to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, a stance shared by some medical colleagues but shaped for him by a growing religious fervor. The strands of religion and antiwar sentiment seemed to weave together in a PowerPoint presentation he made at Walter Reed in June 2007. . . . For a master's program in public health, Major Hasan gave another presentation to his environmental health class titled 'Why The War on Terror is a War on Islam.'"

Meanwhile, the American-Yemeni preacher accused (with no due process) of inspiring both Abdulmutallab and Hasan - Anwar al-Awalaki - was once considered such a moderate American Muslim imam that the Pentagon included him in post-9/11 events and the Washington Post invited him to write a column on Islam. But, by all accounts, he became increasingly radicalized in anti-American sentiment by the attack on Iraq and continuous killing of innocent Muslims by the US, including in Yemen. And, of course, Osama bin Laden, when justifying violence against Americans, cited US military bases in Saudi Arabia, US support for Israeli aggression against its neighbors, and the 1990s US sanctions regime that killed hundreds of thousands of Iraqi children, while Iranians who took over the US embassy in 1979 cited decades of brutal tyranny from the US-implanted-and-enabled Shah.

It should go without saying that the issue here is causation, not justification or even fault. It is inherently unjustifiable to target innocent civilians with violence, no matter the cause (just as it is unjustifiable to recklessly kill civilians with violence). But it is nonetheless vital to understand why there are so many people who want to attack the US as opposed to, say, Peru, or South Africa, or Brazil, or Mexico, or Japan, or Portugal. It's vital for two separate reasons.
First, some leading American opinion-makers love to delude themselves and mislead others into believing that the US is attacked despite the fact that it is peaceful, peace-loving, freedom-giving and innocent. As these myth-makers would have it, we don't bother anyone; we just mind our own business (except when we're helping and liberating everyone), so why would anyone possibly want to attack us?

With that deceitful premise in place, so many Americans, westerners, Christians and Jews love to run around insisting that the only real cause for Muslim attacks on the US is that the attackers have this primitive, brutal, savage, uncivilized religion (Islam) that makes them do it. Yesterday, Andrew Sullivan favorably cited Sam Harris as saying that "Islamic doctrines ... still present huge problems for the emergence of a global civil society" and then himself added: "All religions contain elements of this kind of fanaticism. But Islam's fanatical side – from the Taliban to the Tsarnaevs – is more murderous than most."

These same people often love to accuse Muslims of being tribal without realizing the irony that what they are saying - Our Side is Superior and They are Inferior - is the ultimate expression of rank tribalism. They also don't seem ever to acknowledge the irony of Americans and westerners of all people accusing others of being uniquely prone to violence, militarism and aggression (Juan Cole yesterday, using indisputable statistics, utterly destroyed the claim that Muslims are uniquely violent, including by noting the massive body count piled up by predominantly Christian nations and the fact that "murder rates in most of the Muslim world are very low compared to the United States").

As the attackers themselves make as clear as they can, it's not religious fanaticism but rather political grievance that motivates these attacks. Religious conviction may make them more willing to fight (as it does for many in the west), but the motive is anger over what is being done by the US and its allies to Muslims. Those who claim otherwise are essentially saying: gosh, these Muslims sure do have this strange, primitive, inscrutable religion whereby they seem to get angry when they're invaded, occupied, bombed, killed, and have dictators externally imposed on them. It's vital to understand this causal relationship simply in order to prevent patent, tribalistic, self-glorifying falsehoods from taking hold.

Second, it's crucial to understand this causation because it's often asked "what can we do to stop Terrorism?" The answer is right in front of our faces: we could stop embracing the polices in that part of the world which fuel anti-American hatred and trigger the desire for vengeance and return violence. Yesterday at a Senate hearing on drones, a young Yemeni citizen whose village was bombed by US drones last week (despite the fact that the targets could easily have been arrested), Farea Al-Muslimi, testified. Al-Muslimi has always been pro-American in the extreme, having spent a year in the US due to a State Department award, but he was brilliant in explaining these key points:

"Just six days ago, my village was struck by a drone, in an attack that terrified thousands of simple, poor farmers. The drone strike and its impact tore my heart, much as the tragic bombings in Boston last week tore your hearts and also mine.

"What radicals had previously failed to achieve in my village one drone strike accomplished in an instant: there is now an intense anger and growing hatred of America."

He added that anti-American hatred is now so high as a result of this drone strike that "I personally don't even know if it is safe for me to go back to Wessab because I am someone who people in my village associate with America and its values." And he said that whereas he never knew any Yemenis who were sympathetic to al-Qaida before the drone attacks, now:

"AQAP's power and influence has never been based on the number of members in its ranks. AQAP recruits and retains power through its ideology, which relies in large part on the Yemeni people believing that America is at war with them" . . .
"I have to say that the drone strikes and the targeted killing program have made my passion and mission in support of America almost impossible in Yemen. In some areas of Yemen, the anger against America that results from the strikes makes it dangerous for me to even acknowledge having visited America, much less testify how much my life changed thanks to the State Department scholarships. It's sometimes too dangerous to even admit that I have American friends."

He added that drone strikes in Yemen "make people fear the US more than al-Qaida".

There seems to be this pervasive belief in the US that we can invade, bomb, drone, kill, occupy, and tyrannize whomever we want, and that they will never respond. That isn't how human affairs function and it never has been. If you believe all that militarism and aggression are justified, then fine: make that argument. But don't walk around acting surprised and bewildered and confounded (why do they hate us??) when violence is brought to US soil as well. It's the inevitable outcome of these choices, and that's not because Islam is some sort of bizarre or intrinsically violent and uncivilized religion. It's because no group in the world is willing to sit by and be targeted with violence and aggression of that sort without also engaging in it (just look at the massive and ongoing violence unleashed by the US in response to a single one-day attack on its soil 12 years ago: imagine how Americans would react to a series of relentless attacks on US soil over the course of more than a decade, to say nothing of having their children put in prison indefinitely with no charges, tortured, kidnapped, and otherwise brutalized by a foreign power).

Being targeted with violence is a major cost of war and aggression. It's a reason not do it. If one consciously decides to incur that cost, then that's one thing. But pretending that this is all due to some primitive and irrational religious response and not our own actions is dangerously self-flattering and self-delusional. Just listen to what the people who are doing these attacks are saying about why they are doing them. Or listen to the people who live in the places devastated by US violence about the results. None of it is unclear, and it's long past time that we stop pretending that all this evidence does not exist.

Dirty Wars


Several weeks ago, I wrote about the soon-to-be-released film, "Dirty Wars", that chronicles journalist Jeremy Scahill's investigation of US violence under President Obama in Yemen, Afghanistan, Somalia and elsewhere. That film makes many of the same points here (including the fact that many Yemenis never knew of any fellow citizens who were sympathetic to al-Qaida until the US began drone-bombing them with regularity). Scahill's book by the same title was just released yesterday and it is truly stunning and vital: easily the best account of covert US militarism under Obama. I highly recommend it. See Scahill here on Democracy Now yesterday discussing it, with a focus on Obama's killing of both Anwar Awlaki and, separately, his 16-year-son Abdulrahman in Yemen. He also discussed his book this week with MSNBC's Chris Hayes and Morning Joe (where he argued that Obama has made assassinations standard US policy).


UPDATE

I was interviewed at length this week by the legendary Bill Moyers about Boston, US foreign policy, government secrecy and a variety of related matters. The program will air repeatedly on PBS, beginning this Friday night (see here for local listings). You can see a preview for the show they released today - here - as well as one short excerpt from the interview on the recorder below:





Here's one more excerpt released today by the Moyers show, this one pertaining to exactly the questions raised in today's column:



http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...es-us-violence
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titus
05-01-2013, 03:47 AM
Everything has been amply explained to you (13 pages long in fact) you refuse to acknowledge any voice of reason other your personal cognitive conservatism and that of like minded individuals whose only claim to fame is to make derogatory remarks and poison the well
No, I am stating why I disagree with your opinion. I also am pointing out when you contradict yourself.


string incoherent nosennse together
I have a post in which I gave a number of reasons why I thought the conspiracy theory was not reasonable. I have yet to see anyone, including yourself, respond to it. If you want to call that nonsense feel free, but I wonder why those who disagree with me are avoiding it.

in fact that's how you made your grand entrance which was later moderated.
That is true, but it took you very little time to insult me and others that disagree with your opinion, thereby completely validating my moderated statement.

Intellectual bullying,
Intellectual bullying is usually described as people using big words in an attempt to sound smarter than they really are and being condescending. I put near the effort into using big words as you do, but I think that probably describes both of us to an extent.

name calling, harassment, speaking for the other party
Pot meet kettle.

and I have reported you. There's no amount of evidence that will be satisfactory to you nor should anyone waste their breath.
Ok. But can you or anyone answer the questions I posed in my previous post explaining why, among other things, the people pulling off this conspiracy left their patsy alive, arrested one patsy in front of cameras then faked his death in another spot, were able to get the patsies to be at the bomb site and drop of backpacks nearby, and how they intend to have the living patsy speak in public without covering all this up?
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جوري
05-01-2013, 03:59 AM
Intellectual bullying is usually described as people using big words in an attempt to sound smarter than they really are and being condescending. I put near the effort into using big words as you do, but I think that probably describes both of us to an extent.
try basic vocational training it will pad your self esteem and you won't feel the need to monkey around for attention. The rest of us went to grad school and feel no responsibility to dumb ourselves down to shelter your ego.


Best,
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titus
05-01-2013, 04:13 AM
Now an attempt to evade the issue by insinuating I have a low level of education. We have discussed this before the last time you tried this route and you got upset and claimed I was being conceited by bringing up my education.

Any chance of you actually answering a question about the topic at hand that I have asked, or will you simply post another insult and evade the difficult questions? Please?
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abo mussaab
05-01-2013, 09:15 AM
BOSTON BOMBING - The lady with sunglasses drops her purse on the lighter bag that was pushed out by another person under the fence. NONE of the alleged suspects are in this photo. This is the exact area of the bombing.

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~Zaria~
05-01-2013, 06:43 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
This represents the most extraordinary alliance between people who normally should have nothing in common with each other and i still can't get over how wild this is. Right wing patriots, some liberal groups, nationalists - and now many Muslims. All in the same boat, although they don't like to admit it. Muslims are the latecomers to this but they are rapidly taking over the whole genre through sheer numbers. As for a culprit, blaming the Jews is the most common theme but by no means the only one.
I think that you may be reading too much into this.

What we are seeing is a transition in the way in which people understand the world that we are living in - not just muslims, but from all walks of life.

As with many aspects of life, we may be looking at the same thing - but often, it can be through very different eyes.
We are shaped by past experiences, background knowledge as well as our belief systems.

A simple example can be a person who is standing at the side of an extremely ill person - but not being able to appreciate the actual seriousness of his/ her condition.
The doctor may enter the room and see the exact same person, and go into a frenzy......because his past experience and knowledge enables him to detect the signs of impending doom.


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
For many Muslims, this political belief is actually a part of their religion, and to contradict it is (in their eyes) an attack on Islam itself.
I can assure you, that this is not the case.

In fact, from my own experience, most muslims simply digest the news that is fed to them. It is a minority of people who chose to sit behind their laptops, and spend time researching into such topics.
Just this week, the subject of the Boston bombing was raised by a muslim collegue of mine.
When I mentioned that I think there are a few problems with the official story, I received a look of disbelief.

What we are discussing in this thread does not impact our imaans/ faith.
If one choses to believe the various forms of propaganda, this does not lessen his/ her faith, and vice versa.

format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
For the west (and for world peace) this is a disaster because the west cannot undeclare a secret war which no one knows about and which it never declared in the first place. So long as you believe this, there really is nowhere to go on this one.
A quote from the suggested video:

"Do you think that men were able to carry out this global conspiracy of deception and power by themselves? This historical plan is almost perfect! Why would these elite and occult societies dedicate their lives to a plan that will not materialise in their lifetime?
.....Because the goals of this plan have not been planned out by men.
But by a force far stronger.
Men have sold their souls for this plan in return for worldly rewards of wealth and power....."


There is a far larger agenda (in most cases.....not specific to this one) that not many realise.



format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
I did watch a number of them and I was disappointed, because I admire your piety and I expected something that might challenge me. In the event, unfortunately I found them very far from credible. Yet, I have to understand that you do admire them and find them believable.

You may think whatever you wish about me, but I cannot suddenly suspend all the critical faculties that I would normally apply to any other issue. I can't look for holes in the so-called 'mainstream view' and then ignore gaping absurdities in alternative accounts. (I have yet to see anyone, either on this forum or anywhere else, offer a credible alternative narrative for the Boston bombs - all they do is look for holes in the official account, even if it contradicts their own story.)
I was quite saddened to read this. I had seen you as a 'free-thinker'.
But I do understand..... Our minds tend to resist any type of 'change' that it encounters......such as having to change the manner one sees the world.

"Most people are not ready to be unplugged....
They believe and value the voice of the system; it has become the prime decider of their reality.
What is the 'voice' of the system? The media....."
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Jedi_Mindset
05-01-2013, 06:51 PM
Now the friends of the suspect who is still alive are framed.

http://rt.com/usa/boston-bombing-new...mments/page-6/
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Naeema
05-01-2013, 07:04 PM
I believe that the detonation occurred behind the barricade, not in front of it. The force warped one of the fence pieces around the mailbox and blew the other across the street. They are made of aluminum, so heavy enough to stand up and be good fences, but not too heavy for people to move around. A few of the barricades to the left fell down into the general explosion area (West of explosion on Boyleston) probably because people were holding on to them and then jerked away suddenly.
NB: Photo uncensored, http://i.imgur.com/jV1uqTY.png
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~Zaria~
05-01-2013, 07:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
My point is that Muslims are more likely to fall for these tales, not that they necessarily propagate them. The facts back that up if you look at polls about conspiracy theories 9/11.
I honestly do not know how you are reaching these conclusions.
The sites that promote the 'conspiracy' behind 9/11 are run by non-muslims by far.

You can not judge all other muslims by those that you encounter on an Islamic forum, and the few who may be willing to accept alternative theories to events.
This would be a 'selection bias'......for the type of muslim who finds himself on a islamic forum in the first place, represents a minority of the population of muslims, as well as the fact that these are usually the type of individuals who enjoy thinking deeply about things, engaging in discussions, etc.....and hence they are type to spend time researching stuff on-line.

Most people do not fall into this category.

format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Maybe I should get my news and world view from Youtube videos?
Fox, CNN, BBC (Ive seen a cartoon that says this stands for: 'British brainwashing channel' :P) can all be found on youtube.
There are many beneficial videos that can be found on YT, as well as those that contain much nonsense.
Our aim is to ensure that we are able to decipher between the two.

format_quote Originally Posted by titus
His Youtube account had videos by Feiz Mohammad who calls for violent jihad and is known for his hatred of Jews. If these are the kind of men he is listening to would planting a bomb be any surprise, really?
A YT account can be created under any name/ an old account can change its name to anything - including the names of other individuals.
So, this means very little.

format_quote Originally Posted by titus
If you want to look at the facts then please, let's do. Let's go over exactly what had to be done for this to be successful:

1) They had to pick two patsies and then somehow make sure they were videotaped at the bomb site right before the bombs went off.
2) They had to plant eyewitnesses in the crowd to speak to the media about how they saw the men not look back when the bombs went off, unlike everyone else.
3) They had to get the two patsies to leave without their backpacks so that the before/after pics lined up.
4) They had to let the two patsies roam free for a couple of days then post their pictures for the whole world to see. This would allow the patsies to make calls to lawyers and family to declare their innocence, none of which was done. Don't you find that suspicious?
5) They arrest one of the men while a camera is filming it, then hold a fake shootout in another location so that they can claim the patsy was run over by his brother.
6) With one patsy left they make the dumbest decision of all anyone running a conspiracy of this scale... they capture the other patsy alive. Now one wrong word from him and the conspiracy is in danger. What is their motivation for this?
Are they so sure that their torture techniques will make him tell their version? How do they get his lawyers in on the conspiracy or were they a part of it to begin with?
Or is he a part of the conspiracy who is willing to spend the rest of his life in jail in order to help the conspirators?
Or are the conspirators such nice people that they don't mind killing and maiming a bunch of innocent people, but can't handle killing the younger brother?
7) They had to make public the fact that the FBI had questioned him before and not considered him a threat, and since the FBI is obviously in on it the that means part of the conspiracy involves making themselves look so incompetent that members of the US congress are calling for hearings and investigations into it.
8) Let's also make it part of the conspiracy to make the US government look even more incompetent by having the Russians (who may or may not be part of the conspiracy) point out that they asked for one of the patsies to be investigated long ago.
9) They also have to make sure that the media are all in line, which is easy because nobody in the main stream media would ever want to uncover something that would make the government look bad. There are certainly no examples of that in US history, just ask Woodward and Bernstein. One single rogue reporter could easily find out the truth on Youtube but we know they will be too afraid to investigate it because.... why exactly?


Now I know that none of this will sound absurd to you most likely. If you think this was a conspiracy all I can say is that it was one horribly planned conspiracy that will only be uncovered, as all conspiracies like this are, by people on the internet.

I also love the fact that "false flag" was being called the same day of the bombing when nothing was known. Ever since it has been a scramble to find evidence to back up the conclusion and not a scramble to look at evidence and come to a conclusion.
Lets realise the following:

1. The manner in which these brothers were identified as suspects in the first place still remains obscure. At the moment, it seems to be related to the fact that they had sachels. As mentioned earlier, there has been no footage thus far that shows them dropping off their bags or leaving the scene suspiciously.
The only footage that we do have are the ones that have been shown earlier - which appear to be doctored in any case.

2. The public would have been more suspicious if both these brothers were killed by police - before even having the chance to say anything about their involvement.
So thus far, they have not taken any responsibility for the death of Tamerlan - instead blaming it on his brother.
The younger brother has even been accused of trying to kill himself.
Even though the evidence for both cases, seems to indicate otherwise (as already mentioned previously)

3. The FBI did not reveal that they had made previous contact with the brothers.
This was revealed by their mother.....and only later was this fact admitted to.


As mentioned before, we have been simply highlighting the discrepancies and problems in the official story, on this thread.

For myself, this does not mean that I see it as an impossibility for these brothers to be guilty.

But, neither will I allow myself to believe everything that the media wants us to believe.
I feel that this is a healthier position to be in - to be a free-thinker, and to resist the indoctrination that most of society has given into.
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Independent
05-01-2013, 07:36 PM
I am indebted to Zaria for this piece of info, although it supports the official view rather than the conspiracy. She urged me to input 'Boston Bomb Conspiracy' into YouTube and i did. The first item up was this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENd3q...ctr=1367438191

(If the link doesn't work, input the same search term and hopefully it will come up first - it has an extra layer of protection on the link.)

For those of you who are still hanging onto the Craft International story, it definitively identifies the men as members of the Massachusetts National Guard who were assisting with the security on the day. The video shows pics of the individuals concerned - they are not Craft. They can be seen helping in the aftermath of the bomb. The guy who was supposed to have left a backpack can be seen with his backpack still in place, after the blast.

Secondly, it shows another photo just before the bomb with Dzkokhar standing a few feet behind a number of the known victims - including the 8 year old boy who was killed. It places him unquestionably right at the key spot (about 1min 20 in the video).

Dzhokhar was right there, in the right spot.
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Independent
05-01-2013, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
The manner in which these brothers were identified as suspects in the first place still remains obscure.
Not really - we know that the FBI searched through every photo and video they could get hold of. A number of people had backpacks or bags, but obviously most of them had to be innocent. It's interesting that reddit tried to crowdsource the solution - to do the FBI's job for them - but were embarrassingly wrong and accused several indisputably innocent people before they stopped trying. For once, I have to admire the FBI's expertise.

format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
As mentioned earlier, there has been no footage thus far that shows them dropping off their bags or leaving the scene suspiciously.
One of the most published photos shows the brothers arriving in the most peculiar way, walking together but one several yards in front of the other. Not talking, not acknowledging each other. Why do they behave in such a strange way? Then they split up and take up different positions to watch the race - close but not together. After the bomb goes off, astonishingly, they leave separately. Surely, their first thought should be to make sure the other brother ewas still alive? Is this any way for brothers to behave?

format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
The FBI did not reveal that they had made previous contact with the brothers.
This was revealed by their mother
I'm not sure if that's the correct chronology - but in any case, it doesn't mean much. There are up to 1 million people on the international terrorism database. At first the FBI knew the faces, but not the names of the suspects. You could forgive them for taking a while to go through one million pics.

format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
The public would have been more suspicious if both these brothers were killed by police
Yes they would. But that's nothing to the difficulties Dzhokhar can cause if he's not the real culprit. He now has a top legal defence team to help him. Also, if he is found guilty, he could get the death penalty (which I personally hate) and be made a martyr. If he really was being framed, no question he would be dead by now.
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جوري
05-01-2013, 08:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
Lets realise the following:
The most important thing of all is that a trial by media and the rabid mob that's going on goes against all principles and all common sense. Per the previous article those who are guilty by media are later exonerated by trial. These people will have you believe in guilt by any means to satisfy the sickness that permeates their being.

:w:
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جوري
05-01-2013, 08:05 PM
Press Release: Misha Character's Role in Boston Bombings

PRESS RELEASE

May 1, 2013

Muslim Peace Coalition USA, a grassroots coalition of Muslim peace activists and organizations which has organized prayer services for the victims of Boston bombings, has expressed concern about the lack of information regarding the man who is supposed to have radicalized the Boston bombers.

According to the news reports the extended family of Boston bombers complains that the Boston suspects were "radicalized" by a man they call "Misha". There are reports in the media that the FBI has already decided to close the file on "Misha" in spite of the uncle of the bombers vehemently blaming him, and the mother admitting to his influence.

It would be expected that on such a high profile case such as the heinous terrorist bombing in Boston, the law enforcement agencies would have held thorough interrogation and detailed the role and motive of "Misha" if he was involved. No such news has come out. This has led to speculation that Misha might have been an "informant" who might have acted as an agent provocateur.

"We hope that this is not the case. The FBI and DHS must clear the air about “Misha.” The Muslim community has identified and reported the radical individuals including the recent arrests in Canada," said Imam Malik Mujahid, the founder of Muslim Peace Coalition USA. “However, in some cases these individuals preaching extremism have turned out to be the agent provacotors according to court records.”

Imam Mujahid also pointed out to the fact that the Times Square bomber and the Boston bombers were arrested because of the phone calls to the police by a Muslim vendor and a Muslim gas attendant respectively. “The Muslim Peace Coalition USA will keep working on its comprehensive strategy of combating terrorism, war and Islamophobia. On one hand we will work with our allies to change American foreign policy that is many times seen as supportive of occupation or corrupt dictators and on the other will teach Muslim youth peaceful and democratic ways of dissent. We will also continue to condemn terrorism unequivocally and will remain steadfast in addressing the root causes of terrorism,” said Imam Mujahid

If the unfortunate scenario proves that “Misha” was part of an infiltration or entrapment attempt, on behalf of US or other government interests, this will have greatly negative consequences. Muslim Peace Coalition USA therefore asks for congressional hearings on the attempts to infiltrate mosques and entrap alienated youth who might have underlying psychiatric or adjustment issues.

Over the last several years the majority of cases in which young men were charged with terror plots involved aggressive use of informants, often raising serious questions about whether they would ever have implemented an actual plot without the help of these agents.

-x-x-x-x-
Action Needed

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~Zaria~
05-01-2013, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
I am indebted to Zaria for this piece of info, although it supports the official view rather than the conspiracy. She urged me to input 'Boston Bomb Conspiracy' into YouTube and i did. The first item up was this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ENd3q...ctr=1367438191

(If the link doesn't work, input the same search term and hopefully it will come up first - it has an extra layer of protection on the link.)

For those of you who are still hanging onto the Craft International story, it definitively identifies the men as members of the Massachusetts malitia who were assisting with the security on the day. The video shows pics of the individuals concerned - they are not Craft. They can be seen helping in the aftermath of the bomb. The guy who was supposed to have left a backpack can be seen with his backpack still in place, after the blast.

Secondly, it shows another photo just before the bomb with Dzkokhar standing a few feet behind a number of the known victims - including the 8 year old boy who was killed. It places him unquestionably right at the key spot (about 1min 20 in the video).

Dzhokhar was right there, in the right spot.

Hmmm.....you've demonstrated perfectly how we find exactly what we are looking for.

Ive had a look at the vid - personally, I havent thought much about the men wearing 'Craft' uniforms, and so I havent mentioned anything in this regard.

The rest of the video are his opinions on the bombings (which he is entitled to).

Thanks for sharing.

You are still welcome to watch the other vids that followed.


Ps. I think a lot of confusion surrounding this case could have been avoided if the FBI was just more open with the public (but that would be assuming that they have nothing to hide....)


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Independent
05-01-2013, 08:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
Hmmm.....you've demonstrated perfectly how we find exactly what we are looking for
A trifle unfair - it was the first one! Actually I thought it was pro-conspiracy when it started. I have to congratulate the guy on tracking down those National Guard photos, that was some research.
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~Zaria~
05-01-2013, 08:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
A trifle unfair - it was the first one! Actually I thought it was pro-conspiracy when it started. I have to congratulate the guy on tracking down those National Guard photos, that was some research.
FYI: He is a 9/11 'conspiracy theorist' himself! lol

Maybe you will find his videos on 9/11 also more credible than our sources :P
Reply

جوري
05-01-2013, 08:21 PM

Reply

islamica
05-02-2013, 03:06 AM
something i got in email...
Reply

faithandpeace
05-02-2013, 03:47 AM
I'm convinced.
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titus
05-02-2013, 05:33 AM
FBI did not reveal that they had made previous contact with the brothers.
This was revealed by their mother
The FBI acknowledged this within hours of the public identification of the suspects on April 19th.
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titus
05-02-2013, 05:45 AM
something i got in email...
So now there wasn't even a bomb?
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islamica
05-02-2013, 07:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
So now there wasn't even a bomb?
Maybe not at that particular place, evidence already has shown so many discrepancies as well as fake victims being used, such as that legless veteran. Open your mind and you will see anything is possible....
Reply

titus
05-02-2013, 08:17 AM
So now we add Jeff Bauman (the "fake" legless man), his girlfriend and all of his family and all of his friends in on the conspiracy since they obviously claim he had legs before the incident. You also have to add all the doctors that treated these people and the "fake" legless man to the conspiracy also. With every "fact" that you find regarding this so-called conspiracy you add more and more people to it. The logistics for this conspiracy must have been incredibly astounding to have all these doctors in on it, all these actors with fake injuries for a fake bomb (which we have video of going off), the families of all those actors who now have to claim they had limbs before the bombing....

All based on a file you saw that written by some EMT who can decipher a complete conspiracy including what all the hand signals mean.....

And what do you say about the video of the huge explosion? Was that faked also? And the families of the child killed... and the Chinese girl and her family... was all that faked also?

The fact that people are actually being convinced now that the injured people at the scene of the bombing were actors just shows how absurd this whole conspiracy thing is getting.
Reply

جوري
05-02-2013, 08:43 AM
You can't blame a guy who doesn't understand basic anatomy & physiology. Hey, it was on TV and he started the sentence with 'so now' instead of attempting to explain how the victim was cauterized at the scene without surgeons and anesthetics.
Leave him be eventually he'll take a hint!

:w:
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islamica
05-02-2013, 10:17 AM
Bill Moyers interview on Boston Marathon bombing

Talking to the PBS host about civil liberties, terrorism, US foreign policy and the dangers of secrecy.

Time constraints are preventing me from writing much today, but the full 25-minute interview I did with Bill Moyers, to air beginning this evening on PBS, is now available on the recorder below. We discuss the Boston Marathon bombing, terrorism and civil liberties, the dangers of secrecy, US foreign policy and general issues relating to US political and media culture:





http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...rorism-secrecy


UPDATE


Via commenter axenicely, the transcript to this interview, prepared by the Moyers show, is here.
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جوري
05-02-2013, 11:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
What we are discussing in this thread does not impact our imaans/ faith.
If one choses to believe the various forms of propaganda, this does not lessen his/ her faith, and vice versa.
I'd argue that verifying the information we receive is integral in Islam.

Al-Hujurat (The Dwellings)[49:6]

[RECITE]
[top] [next match]

Ya ayyuha allatheena amanoo in jaakum fasiqun binabain fatabayyanoo an tuseeboo qawman bijahalatin fatusbihoo AAala ma faAAaltum nadimeena
___________
I haven't seen a trial so far, I am rather astounded that men are deemed guilty by media circus and nothing else and that one of them had to be silenced for it...
I do wonder if any of us were pursued by a mob our for blood, military, FBI etc. how we ourselves would behave, regardless of whether guilty or not it is a judicial matter that needs evidence not media and not coerced confession from a sacrificial lamb or two.


:w:
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Independent
05-02-2013, 12:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by islamica
Maybe not at that particular place, evidence already has shown so many discrepancies as well as fake victims being used, such as that legless veteran. Open your mind and you will see anything is possible....
We also need to open our minds to what is impossible. Jeff Bauman was not the only victim. There were 264 people were treated at 27 local hospitals - think how many people that involves. There were also hundreds of uninjured witnesses. Not a single person has come forward to support the idea that it was all an act. Not one! Are they all in on it too? But we're always being told these conspiracies don't need that many people really...

You are following the usual conspiracy theorist tactic of concentrating on one single event to the exclusion of all else. If a single other person's injuries are shown to be genuine, it contradicts the 'fake bomb' theory just as comprehensively as the reverse. Since Jeff is just one example, and there are so very many others where no evidence is given, that alone should lead you to give the benefit of the doubt to the official account.

And when you look at the Jeff Bauman story individually, it also falls apart. Jeff has been interviewed subsequently and his father confirmed his identity early on. Why do you trust Dzhokhar's mum but not Jeff's dad? Also, there are more pictures of Nick Vogt which show him as a different man.

When we look back to similar accusations about Sandy Hook or 9/11, even at this distance of months or years, not a single person has ever come forward or been identified to contradict the official account that they died. By now we're up to 1,000s of people that need to be in on the act. How can you possibly say that this is more plausible?

Even many conspiracists criticise this idea as an attempt to make conspiracies look stupid from the inside. Of all the conspiracy claims, the 'no victim' angle is the least credible.

For this to be a fake, we don't need one amputee actor - we need about 30.
Reply

جوري
05-02-2013, 01:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Not a single person has come forward to support the idea that it was all an act.
People coming forward or not does not an argument make. 37 people saw a woman get raped and murdered and did nothing, not a single one dialed 911 or went to her aid. If that's your defense- it is pretty pathetic!
Bottom line is (for whatever it means to this case) that man's injuries are incongruent with his state of being!

best,
Reply

جوري
05-02-2013, 01:16 PM
please learn a little something about psychology especially in a hostile setting before dispensing with the usual BS
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusi...responsibility
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Independent
05-02-2013, 01:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
People coming forward or not does not an argument make. 37 people saw a woman get raped and murdered and did nothing, not a single one dialed 911 or went to her aid. If that's your defense- it is pretty pathetic!
264 victims were taken to 27 hospitals. Not one hospital worker has contradicted that story. Do you seriously think they're not going to say anything while treating a series of non-existent injuries? Local stories about various victims are all over the place.

3 people are actually dead, which is pretty amazing acting by anyone's standards.

Please share with us how you think this astonishing, mass-Oscar winning performance was pulled off? How many people do you think it would take just for this single part of the whole conspiracy?

But of course, this is one question you can never answer - because you know it takes too many....
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Independent
05-02-2013, 01:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
please learn a little something about psychology especially in a hostile setting before dispensing with the usual BS
The 264 victims aren't just 'not coming forward' they have to be actively involved - smearing themselves with red paint etc. Ridiculous.
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جوري
05-02-2013, 01:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
264 victims were taken to 27 hospitals. Not one hospital worker has contradicted that story
Again, read the link above, the more people involved the wider the diffusion capacity. Also, I am not speaking of 264 victims, I am speaking about a specific case above, for which folks have indeed pointed out the discrepancy- you also don't need 27 hospitals to point out one victim's injuries. Your style of writing gets more hostile when at a loss to explain the injuries(for that specific case) with what we know of medicine, why is that do you suppose?
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Independent
05-02-2013, 01:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
the more people involved the wider the diffusion capacity.
We're not talking about bystanders, we're talking about active participants. You need 264 victims and probably thousands of hospital/care workers to be actively involved in either the act itself, or the cover up afterwards.

format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
I am speaking about a specific case above, for which folks have indeed pointed out the discrepancy- you also don't need 27 hospitals to point out one victim's injuries.
Surf around and you will find professionals who think what they have seen of Jeff's injuries is perfectly credible. If you choose to ignore them, and take someone else, that's a choice, not objectivity.

You are repeating the professional conspiracists trick. Focus in on this one thing that suits you, ignore everything else. Demand that the official account is watertight in every last detail, yet refuse to make even a rudimentary attempt at an account of your own.

For Jeff's injuries to be a fake, for his father to be a liar etc, all the other 263 victims and the 3 fatalities also have to be fake. You have shown zero evidence for this.

Tell us how the other 266 were faked and show evidence.
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جوري
05-02-2013, 01:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
We're not talking about bystanders, we're talking about active participants. You need 264 victims and probably thousands of hospital/care workers to be actively involved in either the act itself, or the cover up afterwards.
What do the 264 victims have to do with that specific case in your mind?


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Surf around and you will find professionals who think what they have seen of Jeff's injuries is perfectly credible. If you choose to ignore them, and take someone else, that's a choice, not objectivity.
I don't need to surf I went to medical school and I know what a major arterial injury does to a person, even if blood loss is controlled on the scene that wouldn't explain his state of being!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
You are repeating the professional conspiracists trick. Focus in on this one thing that suits you, ignore everything else. Demand that the official account is watertight in every last detail, yet refuse to make even a rudimentary attempt at an account of your own.
I don't ignore or accept based on hearsay. I have a mind I use it.. you should try it too sometimes!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
For Jeff's injuries to be a fake, for his father to be a liar etc, all the other 263 victims and the 3 fatalities also have to be fake. You have shown zero evidence for this.
Again not an argument to make. You need to deal with the science not the emotions.
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Tell us how the other 266 were faked and show evidence.
Again, speaking one case. Can you deal with that case scientifically?

best,
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Independent
05-02-2013, 02:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
I went to medical school
I am not interested in your diagnosis by photo compared to those medics who actually attended to him both at the scene and in hospital - and who are still attending to him now. If he was wearing fake legs, I'm confident that their years in medical school and on the job would have let them know. I am sure they could tell the difference between a man who lost his legs years ago, versus someone who lost them an hour ago.

Your remote opinion is of no value, even if you were in any way capable of being objective.

People arguing about whether he looks pale enough, or upset enough in the photo is not going to solve anything. What will solve it definitively one way or the other is the other 266 victims.

format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
What do the 264 victims have to do with that specific case in your mind?
If he is a fake, they have to be fakes too. Show us the evidence!

You claim that your conspiracy theory is as legitimate as the official account, yet you won't subject your theory to anything like the same standards.
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جوري
05-02-2013, 02:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
I am not interested in your diagnosis by photo compared to those medics who actually attended to him both at the scene and in hospital -
We're not asking for your interest- we're asking for facts. Your beliefs play no part in this.
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
If he was wearing fake legs, I'm confident that their years in medical school and on the job would have let them know. I am sure they could tell the difference between a man who lost his legs years ago, versus someone who lost them an hour ago.
Nothing to do with fake legs and everything to do with ACLS, volume resuscitation, hemorrhage control, prevention of shock. If you don't understand what that means can't wrap your mind around basic anatomy & physiology then at least quit embarrassing yourself to those of us who do!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Your remote opinion is of no value, even if you were in any way capable of being objective.
Yes, you keep saying, except it isn't an opinion. Open any basic book & it will tell you the same:
The femoral artery is a main artery in the body that runs from the external iliac artery, near the stomach, all the way down both legs. It carries oxygen and nutrients to the lower half of the body. Vital to survival, if cut, an average person will typically bleed to death within 10 or 15 minutes without immediate medical intervention. Whenever this artery is injured, it becomes a life and death situation. The same actually holds true for all arteries, because they carry much of the body's blood supply.
There is a triangular shaped region in the upper thigh, next to the groin area, where the femoral artery intersects with the femoral vein and the femoral nerve. This area is known as Scarpa's triangle, named so in 1823 by the Italian surgeon Antonio Scarpa. Also called the femoral triangle by some medical professionals, this region serves as an anatomical landmark for surgeons and other healthcare professionals. Using the triangle as a reference point enables surgeons to make more accurate incisions, as well as prevent injury to the femoral region during surgery. The femoral pulse is also taken from this region.
http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-the-femoral-artery.htm




format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
People arguing about whether he looks pale enough, or upset enough in the photo is not going to solves anything. What will solve it definitively one way or the other is the other 266 victims.
Again, not an argument, you keep dancing and you offer no scientific explanation and why is that?


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
If he is a fake, they have to be fakes too. Show us the evidence!
Shouldn't we deal with his case first? and I have no problem accepting false flag operations it is a fact!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
You claim that your conspiracy theory is as legitimate as the official account, yet you won't subject your theory to anything like the same standards.
'Conspiracy theory'- is your term for things clearly over your head I guess!

best,
Reply

Independent
05-02-2013, 02:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
Yes, you keep saying, except it isn't an opinion.
Yes it is, because you are looking at photos whereas his doctors are looking at him and all the other victims. You are just an anonymous person on a website who may or may not have had some form of medical training. Even if you have, it still means nothing. Jeff's doctors and nurses are at his side. Other doctors and other nurses have been at the side of 100s of other patients.

Do you think they can tell the difference between fake blood or not?
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جوري
05-02-2013, 02:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Yes it is, because you are looking at photos whereas his doctors are looking at him and all the other victims.
I take it you've no explanation as to why a guy who has sustained major blood loss through a very high velocity vessel wasn't near death, his mental status was AAOX3 and without an IV bag in sight to slightly raise his BP so he's not gibbering?.. wow hallelujah it is a miracle.. when did you become so faithful?


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
You are just an anonymous person on a website who may or may not have had medical training.
Whatever you say. Everyone here worthwhile knows me, regardless, I take it that you don't have an answer to the case presented and prefer to spend time discussing my training?


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Even if you have, it still means nothing.
Actually it is the crux of the entire story, since this particular character who wasn't in shock or anything after sustaining major blood loss from a high velocity vessel is the one that identified the culprit!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Jeff's doctors and nurses are at his side. Other doctors and other nurses have been at the side of 100s of other patients.
how many logical fallacies are amalgamated into one here?


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Do you think they can tell the difference between fake blood or not?
No one has come to explain this little miracle for us really for me to issue a thought on the matter. There is what I know to be logical or consistent with logic and then there's everything else!

best,
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Independent
05-02-2013, 03:00 PM
Why don't you go and meet him? See for yourself? You're in New York aren't you? Go and have a chat with some of the victims, I'm sure they'd appreciate your expert medical advice.

Perhaps you could make a round trip of it and see how they're getting on down in Sandy Hook too?
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جوري
05-02-2013, 03:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Why don't you go and meet him? See for yourself? You're in New York aren't you? Go and have a chat with some of the victims, I'm sure they'd appreciate your expert medical advice.

Perhaps you could make a round trip of it and see how they're getting on down in Sandy Hook too?
Glad you admit although so tongue in cheek that you've nothing substantial to impart but the usual braying. Whomever is paying you to do this so diligently should teach you some basic ACLS/CPR for the normal questions that will crop up.. you don't need a doctorate to have some common sense!

best,
Reply

Independent
05-02-2013, 03:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
best,
This was the only word I could find of value.

It's amazing to see how far you will go to avoid taking any action, or asking any question, that might actually endanger you of finding out the truth. It's totally within your power to check this stuff out for real, face to face. But you'd rather sit at home, cut and pasting articles and writing 'BS' (another of your favourite expressions) on this website.

We can never settle it here, not if you want to avoid most of the evidence, but you could check Jeff out 100% in real life and (to go all Biblical on it) like Doubting Thomas put your fingers in his wounds.

But you never will!
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جوري
05-02-2013, 03:14 PM
btw on a completely unrelated note.. folks should watch the entire documentary on the 'woman that wasn't there'



imagine that..



and imagine this.. here she is honored with the best of them and years before it was found out, she was neither in the towers, didn't lose anyone and was in fact in another country all together.. If whom you know is padding and media circus is the truth then people do deserve the title of idiots for believing everything they see and questioning none of it!
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جوري
05-02-2013, 03:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
This was the only word I could find of value.
That seems like an adequate assessment of how you've handled this!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
It's amazing to see how far you will go to avoid taking any action, or asking any question, that might actually endanger you of finding out the truth. It's totally within your power to check this stuff out for real, face to face. But you'd rather sit at home, cut and pasting articles and writing 'BS' (another of your favourite expressions) on this website.
And what action have you taken? what questions have you asked? in fact we are the ones asking the questions- you're merely parroting BS you see on TV which is completely and utterly illogical and as I have demonstrated in just the last post, media frenzy and governmental recognition doesn't denote the story is at all true. How are you handling this cognitive dissonance?
This tirade is best directed at your own person in fact and if BS is what you're dispensing with then there's no harm pointing it out. If you can't come up with something logical & coherent to explain his medical condition then don't throw a tantrum, everyone can see through the charade!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
We can never settle it here, not if you want to avoid most of the evidence, but you could check Jeff out 100% in real life and (to go all Biblical on it) like Doubting Thomas put your fingers in his wounds.
What evidence is there exactly? A man who is minutes away from death literally a life & death situation who should be a 3 on a glasgow scale looking like a 13 at worst?
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
But you never will!
Guess that is just your inner child speaking!

best,
Reply

Independent
05-02-2013, 03:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
what questions have you asked?
I have asked you plenty of questions.

What about the other 266 victims?
Why can't the medical staff tell the difference between fake blood and non existent injuries?
What about the hundreds if not thousands of other witnesses on the day?
What about all the friends and relatives, why don't they say anything?

And I'll add a few more - how did the stage handlers manage to transform that street into a disaster area in seconds without anybody capturing it on camera?
Why doesn't Alex Jones or some other nutcase go and meet some victims himself, if you won't?
Biggest question of all - why bother faking it? If they blew up the Twin Towers why get actors in for Boston?

You actually have no idea how to answer this do you? In all your posts you always avoid these questions and for sure you're going to avoid it again now.
Reply

titus
05-02-2013, 03:42 PM
So we have learned that a guy with EMT training in Oregon is a more valid source of what happened in Boston than the doctors that treated these people. Is that correct?

And we add Jeff Baumans entire family and all of his friends in on the conspiracy because not one of them has come forward to say that he was an amputee already.

Or maybe Jeff was so dedicated to this conspiracy that he had them cut his legs off without anyone knowing about it before the fake bombings in order to help pull it off. Does this actually make sense to anyone?

This is reminding me of the 9/11 conspiracy theorists that believe that it was a missile that hit the Pentagon instead of a plane. At some point you just have to call it absurd.
Reply

جوري
05-02-2013, 03:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
What about the other 266 victims?
What about them? We're concerned with this guy, since this guy identified the culprit. Do you think you can concentrate and not meander from topic?


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Why can't the medical staff tell the difference between fake blood and non existent injuries?
Even well trained doctors can't always tell the difference for instance to the naked eye myoglobinuria may mimic blood, and needs a specific test.. but say they can all tell the difference between ketchup and blood, what does this have to do with that particular case and how incongruent his injuries are with his state of being?


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
What about the hundreds if not thousands of other witnesses on the day?
What about them? a bomb did indeed go off, what is your point?


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
What about all the friends and relatives, why don't they say anything?
Relatives of whom exactly? this particular fellow?


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
And I'll add a few more - how did the stage handlers manage to transform that street into a disaster area in seconds without anybody capturing it on camera?
It was a disaster area, question is who is the culprit?
The woman in the previous video described the situation quite well and got away with it for seven years. All you really need is one person!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Why doesn't Alex Jones or some other nutcase go and meet some victims himself, if you won't?
And what would be the point of that be? His condition was only relevant when it happened not a few days later.
If you're in shock and recover or have a heart attack and are resuscitated, what difference would it make if I go check on you a few days later? You've recovered and discharged on meds what does that have to do with anything? Try to do more than piece nonsense together.
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Biggest question of all - why bother faking it? If they blew up the Twin Towers why get actors in for Boston?
That's a question to target to the govt. Sr. Islamica has already offered an article with several laws passed and changes made. I don't feel like moving to the next stage until the more pressing questions have been answered. You have not answered them, you've deflected and padded!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
You actually have no idea how to answer this do you? It's classic of you to pick the dumbest, least plausible, craziest part of the whole conspiracy theory to hang your hat on. Even some of the professionals aren't pushing this one any more.
Again, an adequate assessment of yourself.
Concentrate, don't meander, don't get emotional unless of course this causes a decreased in your pay!

best,
Reply

جوري
05-02-2013, 03:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
So we have learned that a guy with EMT training in Oregon is a more valid source of what happened in Boston than the doctors that treated these people. Is that correct?
This has nothing to do with EMT or doctors or who has the best training in the world. In fact most EMT workers are certified in ACLS and trauma care. His story isn't what's on trial. What is on trial is the level of trauma he sustained to his condition when pictured. Believe me no amount of sarcasm, or appeals to authority, or appeals to science (which you'll be unable to explain) is going to save you in this debacle, and it certainly shouldn't be the answer to help your buddy here by parroting his points of view. Two equally erroneous points of view with conviction doesn't make a right.

If you've not been involved with a high profile case in a hospital I suggest you spare us the drivel.

best,
Reply

Independent
05-02-2013, 03:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
What about them? a bomb did indeed go off, what is your point?
So you agree there was a bomb? Why have you waited 15 pages to say that?

Please give us your short narrative of what happened on the day, I have no idea which bits of which conspiracy you're hanging onto.
Reply

جوري
05-02-2013, 03:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
So you agree there was a bomb? Why have you waited 15 pages to say that?
Are you confused again or didn't bother with the thread title?
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Please give us your short narrative of what happened on the day, I have no idea which bits of which conspiracy you're hanging onto.
I have no interest in narratives, that's the job of western govt. I just wish they'd write the scenario before releasing it to cross their T's and dot their I's .. be that as it may, are you going to answer the trauma, vascular/pressure, volume depletion, shock questions as pertaining to this gentleman's wounds or are we going to keep going around in circles for another 13 pages in which case you and pal can dispense with sarcasm, meander, throw fits, piece together illogical & incoherent questions or ask inane unrelated material all together?

best,
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titus
05-02-2013, 04:04 PM
The best people to answer the questions about his legs would be his doctors since they are the only ones with first hand knowledge of all the details.

Unless of course you believe the doctors at the hospital are in on the conspiracy.
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جوري
05-02-2013, 04:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
The best people to answer the questions about his legs would be his doctors since they are the only ones with first hand knowledge of all the details.

Unless of course you believe the doctors at the hospital are in on the conspiracy.
victims of trauma in hospitals are given aliases. No one knows who they're if there's a govt. coverup or not- it doesn't matter since they treat the condition only. They wouldn't know any better to put a name with an injury and there's also such a thing as patient confidentiality. People lose their license for divulging medical information. Or do you not know that little morsel? It is really not that difficult, open a book on vascular injury, basic trauma to a high velocity vessel and explain to us in a logical scientific way, what went down!

best,
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Independent
05-02-2013, 04:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Unless of course you believe the doctors at the hospital are in on the conspiracy.
This is one of the questions she is unable to answer.

format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
Are you confused again or didn't bother with the thread title?
You didn't start the thread. One of the main conspiracy lines has the idea that there were no bombs at all. So far, everything you said till now seemed to fit with that. Perhaps you decided it was advisable to shift your ground.

Which is why I'm asking you to tell us what you think actually happened because it will save everyone a whole lot of time.

But this is another thing you never commit to, not with this or any other conspiracy event. This is because you are incapable of constructing any coherent narrative. It's easier to try and find loose ends in the official story rather than fill the gaping holes in your own.
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جوري
05-02-2013, 04:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
This is one of the questions she is unable to answer.
I have already answered above, I know it wasn't what you were hoping for. Believe it or not folks between life and death don't go to the front desk to register their name, previous medical history etc.
You'd be better off addressing me directly, crying to titus ain't gonna help you here!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
You didn't start the thread. One of the main conspiracy lines has the idea that there were no bombs at all. So far everything, you said till now seemed to fit with that.
Really like what?


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Which is why I'm asking you to tell us what you think actually happened because it will save everyone a whole lot of time.
In fact I don't know what happened. I do know that what they say happened isn't congruent with some of what I'd seen!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
But this is another thing you never commit to, not with this or any other conspiracy event. This is because you are incapable of constructing any coherent narrative. It's easier to try and find loose ends in the official story rather than fill the gaping holes in your own.
It is unfortunate this silly little word play you descend to. That sort of psychology doesn't work on me, given the time I invest to reply to your inane little ditties is itself a testament of how silly your content!

best,
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titus
05-02-2013, 04:14 PM
Here is a link to more people that were involved in the conspiracy.
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جوري
05-02-2013, 04:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Here is a link to more people that were involved in the conspiracy.
in fact orthopedic surgery is close to my heart, very rare are the cases when an orthopedist comes to the scene before a vascular surgeon. But I am not disputing what the doctor says, there are a few situations when they can both work on a patient at the same time or fast in tandem.. It still doesn't answer what happened on the scene. perhaps you can shift gears go back and address that before you go on to the next stage? Basic life support usually comes before any vascular or orthopedic surgery!

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titus
05-02-2013, 04:21 PM
If the wounds would have been impossible to live through, then why has there been no outcry from the thousands and thousands of doctors from around the world already concerning this? After all the picture is becoming iconic.

I know you are a medical expert and all, but why are we not hearing from others in the medical field to corroborate? I mean, besides that one guy with EMT training that is also able to decode super secret signals (like waving a hand and putting on sunglasses) why is nobody brave enough to speak out? Are they all a part of the conspiracy or is the government intimidating all of them into silence?
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Independent
05-02-2013, 04:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by العنود
We're concerned with this guy, since this guy identified the culprit.
Let's follow your fantasy as far as we can from what you're prepared to release to the media.

I'm assuming now that you think Jeff is the only fake injury, but the others are real. Let's leave aside for one moment how this miracle was achieved - and think about what the point of it would be.

As you say, when he was taken back to the hospital Jeff gave an ID of one of the perpetrators - Tamerlan if I remember rightly but whichever. In order to ID the guy they must have already had a shortlist to show him, so Tamerlan was already a suspect. All Jeff did was to narrow it down.

Alternatively, to get into the spirit of the conspiracy, Jeff is an actor so presumably he didn't actually do this because they already knew who did it or who they were going to accuse of it.

So what did Jeff add to the conspiracy? They could have just released the pics of the suspects anyway - there was enough to go on from their position and their behaviour, that's why they were shortlisted in the first place? Tamerlan/Dzhokhar's guilt isn't reliant on his testimony anyway.

So they went to all that risk to fake his injury to make absolutely no difference to the success or otherwise of the conspiracy?

Jeff adds nothing.
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titus
05-02-2013, 04:23 PM
But I am not disputing what the doctor says,
Do you believe the doctor is able to tell whether a person lost their legs recently or was a previous amputee?
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جوري
05-02-2013, 04:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
If the wounds would have been impossible to live through, then why has there been no outcry from the thousands and thousands of doctors from around the world already concerning this? After all the picture is becoming iconic.
Where did I say that the wounds are impossible to live through? perhaps you can quote me on that!


format_quote Originally Posted by titus
I know you are a medical expert and all, but why are we not hearing from others in the medical field to corroborate? I mean, besides that one guy with EMT training that is also able to decode super secret signals (like waving a hand and putting on sunglasses) why is nobody brave enough to speak out? Are they all a part of the conspiracy or is the government intimidating all of them into silence?
Speak out on what exactly? As I stated above trauma patients go in anon. No one sits there and googles their before and after history furthermore even if they did, one would lose their license for discussing patient care with the public unless it is a state forensic case. Dead people do belong to the state and that is about it!

best,
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جوري
05-02-2013, 04:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
I'm assuming now that you think Jeff is the only fake injury, but the others are real. Let's leave aside for one moment how this miracle was achieved - and think about what the point of it would be.
I don't wish to leave it aside since he identified the culprit. Ok, secondly I didn't say whether or not he had a fake injury I wish you and the other guy would quit speaking on my behalf. I said for a vascular injury of that magnitude he wouldn't be sitting on the chair in the AAOX3.
It is really quite simple read a little about what it means to lose blood form a high velocity vessel and a major one at that!


format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
As you say, when he was taken back to the hospital Jeff gave an ID of one of the perpetrators - Tamerlan if I remember rightly but whichever. In order to ID the guy they must have already had a shortlist to show him, so Tamerlan was already a suspect. All Jeff did was to narrow it down.
Guess you're also not aware what volume depletion does to the brain especially in a tenuous supply!

I don't really care for the rest of the gibber- the games you play are only a reflection of your level of education and your purpose here!

best,
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جوري
05-02-2013, 04:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by titus
Do you believe the doctor is able to tell whether a person lost their legs recently or was a previous amputee?
Of course they can. Have you read my previous comments on trauma pts. anonymity & patient confidentiality?

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