format_quote Originally Posted by
arh1
I was wondering how you ascribe value to his perfection if it does not cost anything to forgive man for his imperfection.
Addressing the latter words of your sentence first, as I mentioned above, in Islam, there is no concept of God demanding perfection from us, and us having to be forgiven for not being able to live up to that perfection. God is so Kind and Loving, that perfection has never been demanded of us, and we are not punished for being imperfect.
We are required to obey God, and the messengers He sent with His message, and we have been told which things are forbidden for us and what we should avoid. When we do those things that we shouldn't, then we repent and seek God's forgiveness, being truly sorry for what we have done, trying our best not to repeat it, and acknowledging Allah as being the only One on Whom we depend, for the forgiveness of our sins.
God is so Forgiving and relenting towards us, that He loves forgiving:
Abu Hurairah (May Allah be pleased with him) reported:
Allah's Messenger (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said, "By the One in Whose Hand my soul is, were you not to commit sins, Allah would replace you with a people who would commit sins and then seek forgiveness from Allah; and Allah would forgive them".
[Saheeh Muslim] Arabic/English book reference : Book 1, Hadith 422
That is not to say that we should deliberately sin, in fact we should resolve not to repeat past sins. However Allah loves forgiving, and this is to show how forgiving Allah is, even knowing that we will sin.
format_quote Originally Posted by
arh1
I was wondering how you ascribe value to his perfection if it does not cost anything to forgive man for his imperfection.
Addressing your middle words about cost, it seems that if God gives you something free, you do not attach value to it because there was no cost. I've never heard those thoughts before. It is like viewing Allah as a human being that gave you a present that cost nothing, and you view that as being stingy and not generous. We seek Allah's refuge from that. He is the font of freely flowing, abundant, never ending forgiveness, far above human imperfections. That actually shows His infinite generosity, without any match or comparison for it.
format_quote Originally Posted by
arh1
I was wondering how you ascribe value to his perfection if it does not cost anything to forgive man for his imperfection.
Addressing your first words, it is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection.
What you describe above is not truly forgiveness, but atonement. One thing pays the price for another.
*Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf.
*In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will.
If newborns are not born sinful, when do they become sinful? Is it just when they do bad things?
From my understanding, children become accountable from puberty.
“The Pen has been lifted from three: from the child until he reaches puberty, from the sleeper until he wakes up, and from the one who has lost his mind until he recovers.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, 4402)
We do not refer to people as "sinful". Someone could have committed a big sin, but then sought forgiveness from Allah and made it up to the one he wronged against. It is nobody's prerogative to label another as sinful.
Can we outweigh bad with good?
Yes, in Islam we believe this is the case. On the day of judgement our good and bad deeds will be on each side of a weighing scale. Obviously, the more good deeds we have, the better. And the more chance of the bad deeds being outweighed.
If so, what does god's forgiveness mean and is it really necessary?
Deeds alone do not determine the outcome. If we think our deeds alone are going to make us successful, then we are wrong.
Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying:
"There is none whose deeds alone can secure salvation for him". They said: "Allah's Messenger, not even you?" Thereupon he said: "Not even I, but that the Mercy of Allah should take hold of me."
Saheeh Muslim USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 39, Hadith 6763
Arabic reference : Book 53, Hadith 7293
Is there any assurance of salvation?
None of us can say, "We are saved". This is what the day of judgement is for. We strive with faith and deeds and obedience to God, do our best, and trust in His Promise, and His Justice, and hoping for His Mercy.
For Christians, this may be hard. They believe that by accepting Jesus (peace be upon him) as their saviour they have an assurance of salvation, and view the Islamic position on salvation as being one of uncertainty. As a rough (not exact) analogy, the Christian position, is like one sitting an exam, but somebody has said they'll take all your bad marks for you, and if you let them do that, you'll pass. In the world, this would be viewed as cheating and as unjust. Injustice cannot be ascribed to God. The Islamic position is that of one sitting an exam, doing their best, and then awaiting their results, based on what they've done, and of course hoping for the mercy of God.
Please also be aware that Muslims love and respect Jesus (peace be upon him) and believe in him as he was; one of the most noble and purest of humanity to ever walk the earth, and one of the greatest messengers of Allah, sent to the Children of Israel. We do not reject him (as Jews do), nor do we deify him (as Christians do). Neither he, nor any other messenger, was divine, ever claimed divinity, or to be God's son. We believe he was born miraculously of the noble virgin Mary (peace be on her), and that he is the messiah. We do not however, believe that he died or was crucified. He will return to earth near the end of time.
Hope that helped a bit.
Any errors contained in the post are from me. And Allah knows best in all matters.
* Quoted from Uncle Woodrow.