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MrKhan89
05-06-2013, 04:57 AM
what's holding you back to becoming muslim?

why are you even here if you are not planning to become muslim?

don't you realize that if you have looked up information on islam and if any of the members here told you the truth about islam, you have would to make a BIG decision.


If you still reject islam after hearing the exact truth about it, you could be in trouble in the here after.
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NL.
05-06-2013, 05:28 AM
Hey interesting question. I'm an atheist, I don't think I could become a Muslim, that has never been a desire or possibility in any way. After having been exposed to Christianity so much throughout my life and not simply rejecting it but figuring out what logic and reason has told me about the world and the nature of religions in general, I don't see how it's possible that Islam could provide me with or prove something to me what Christianity couldn't.

I came here to learn more about Islam because I realized after the Boston bombings I had all these questions come up and mostly what I was asking reflected a gross lack of understanding of it. I didn't like that, I wanted to take a fair look at Islam and gain a perspective of Muslims themselves from their experiences, ideas and worries. There's much to discover but there's simply no way that discovery will make me view Islam in a way that I'll want to start living it or practicing it. I have always been an atheist, I will always be and I am absolutely positive of that. It's not stubbornness it's my culmination of thought and pondering of the universe that leads me to that conclusion. People who aren't atheists simply have come to a different conclusion about these things and that's perfectly fine, I respect them, and I hope they can respect me in that regard.
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sister herb
05-06-2013, 05:42 AM
Salam alaykum

Maybe non-muslims are here to increase they knowledge about islam. We muslims are to many of them they neighbors and when you know your neighbor´s way to live, you can easily live with him.

:statisfie
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glo
05-06-2013, 06:57 AM
I live in a British town with a sizeable minority of Pakistani Muslims. I have always felt that for a society to be healthy and function well, all subgroups should understand each other and go along well. So I set out to build contacts with my Muslim neighbours ... but I found to my frustration that it was not easy. The Muslim community kept itself to itself. The women often don't speak much English or they stay together in their own little huddles. And speaking to men (as a woman) was clearly not appropriate.

So through an online revert friend (we are still good friends now) I came across this forum and joined. Really to learn about Islam, so I could relate to my Muslim neighbours better.

Since then I have learned much about Islam. I know how and when to wish my Muslim neighbours Ramadan/Eid/Jummah Mubarak.
I have also fasted and prayed during Ramadan and that has given me an insight into the practice of Islam too.

Sometimes I feel disheartened and upset when I read anti-Christian (or anti-other-groups) sentiments or when people blatantly misunderstand or misrepresent my faith which is so beautiful and important to me.
But I have also learned how hurt Muslims feel by anti-Islam sentiments. (Hey, after all, we are all human and share the same emotional responses. :))

Most of all, I have made some great friends here. And I continue to read posts and hear views which give me hope that peace between the different faiths and worldviews can be possible.
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Eric H
05-06-2013, 08:10 AM
Greetings and peace be with you MrKhan89; why are there so many religions if we are all created by the same God?

You are chosen by God, as are your family and friends, now we have to work it out. In Judaism, Christianity and Islam it says that God chose us, but how can the same God do this?

In 2009 I had the privilege to go to Jerusalem, and stand by the Wailing Wall or Western Wall, it is part of a huge structure called the Temple Mount, which is a sacred place to the Jews Christians and Muslims. Abraham was said to have offered his son as a sacrifice in the region of Mount Moriah. It is also were Solomon was commanded to build the Temple on Mount Moriah to house the Ark of the Covenant, (the Ten Commandments) it is where Jesus worshiped. The Temple was destroyed and rebuilt, then destroyed again and the Islamic Dome of the Rock is built were Solomon’s Temple once stood. The Dome is said to be the place where the prophet pbuh, ascended up to heaven to meet all the other prophets, on this same site, associated with Abraham, Moses, Solomon, and Jesus.

When you look above the Wailing Wall, you see the golden dome of ‘The Dome of the Rock Mosque, and the Al Aqsa sacred to Islam. You queue up to go up to the mosque from the Jewish side, there is a sign that says – God is always present here. By this sign are Israeli Police with guns, riot shields are stacked against the wall ready for use.

Most of the Christian holy places are within the Muslim quarters of Jerusalem, this in turn is surrounded by the Jews.

It seems that God has brought all three religions together on one huge monument and in so many ways, it seems to be a place to search for God rather than religion.

It seems that God has linked Judaism, Christianity and Islam together on this one sacred place. God could have made our lives much easier if he had placed our three religions a hundred miles apart, but it seems that God has some greater purpose by bringing all three religions together in one place.

Today there is tension in Jerusalem, most of the Christian holy places are within the walls of the Muslim Community, and this is surrounded by the Jews.

But why has God brought all these three religions together in so many ways, we are obviously so different?

Justice and peace on Earth depends on us trying to understand and do God’s will; despite all our differences.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of One God

Eric
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ardianto
05-06-2013, 09:19 AM
Assalamu'alaikum

As people who live in Muslim majority country, my non-Muslim relatives and friends must be have know what and how is Islam. But they never become Muslim and I never want to ask why because I understand why.

Religion is belief. It's means what is someone believe. If they believe their religion is the only right path, it's okay. I respect their belief just like they respect my belief on Islam.
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greenhill
05-06-2013, 01:07 PM
There is a quote from the Quran for you MrKhan89,

"If Allah willed, He would have made you one nation (religion) but that He may test you in what He has given you. So strive (as in a race) in good deeds." So, Allah made us different..

NL- "It's not stubbornness it's my culmination of thought and pondering of the universe that leads me to that conclusion" .... which makes me think that perhaps you have not reached the 'culmination point' but at a temporary pinnacle :nervous:

Eric H, the three religions are in fact only one, just people made it different. Yes, we are very different, but we can be the same in faith if we can peel the layers to get to the underlying message as opposed to personalised ideals. Just my opinion.

Peace
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IAmZamzam
05-06-2013, 02:23 PM
I’m an atheist, I don't think I could become a Muslim, that has never been a desire or possibility in any way. After having been exposed to Christianity so much throughout my life and not simply rejecting it but figuring out what logic and reason has told me about the world and the nature of religions in general, I don't see how it's possible that Islam could provide me with or prove something to me what Christianity couldn't…There's much to discover but there's simply no way that discovery will make me view Islam in a way that I'll want to start living it or practicing it. I have always been an atheist, I will always be and I am absolutely positive of that. It's not stubbornness it's my culmination of thought and pondering of the universe that leads me to that conclusion.

That is as close as I’ve ever seen an atheist come to coming right out and admitting (to themselves, I mean) that the only real reason they don’t believe is because their prior exposure to one particular religion has soured them on everything even smacking of religion and as a result their minds are now completely closed to it. I’m sorry if I’m being too blunt or confrontational here but it’s difficult not to comment on the obvious when someone first uses phrases like “there has never been a desire or possibility in any way”, “I don’t see how it’s possible”, and “I will always be and I am absolutely positive of that”, and then turns right around and says in the very same breath, “It’s not stubbornness.” A “culmination of thought”? Being “lead to a conclusion”? Really?? Is there no corner of your conscience which recognizes these euphemisms?

All the same I commend you on your attitude as regards the Boston bombings. We need more people like you.
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Ahmad H
05-07-2013, 01:14 AM
I think a big misconception among Christian Atheists is that they think Islam and Christianity are the exact same and that Islam offers the same thing as Christianity. That is definitely not true. In that case, why would Christian even become Muslims then? I think that is a relevant question for an Atheist to ask.

To any Atheists, please do look up for information on Islam before you decide on thinking all religions are the same. In essence many are, but there are many differences between each religion. Having read up on many religions in my life so far, I know this very well. So take it from one who knows from reading a lot. Reading more may do you some good.
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NL.
05-07-2013, 01:28 AM
Originally Posted by IAmZamzam
That is as close as I’ve ever seen an atheist come to coming right out and admitting (to themselves, I mean) that the only real reason they don’t believe is because their prior exposure to one particular religion has soured them on everything even smacking of religion and as a result their minds are now completely closed to it. I’m sorry if I’m being too blunt or confrontational here but it’s difficult not to comment on the obvious when someone first uses phrases like “there has never been a desire or possibility in any way”, “I don’t see how it’s possible”, and “I will always be and I am absolutely positive of that”, and then turns right around and says in the very same breath, “It’s not stubbornness.” A “culmination of thought”? Being “lead to a conclusion”? Really?? Is there no corner of your conscience which recognizes these euphemisms?

All the same I commend you on your attitude as regards the Boston bombings. We need more people like you.
I think you've misunderstood me, I honestly don't think my experience and reasoning as an atheist for saying I can't become a Christian or Muslim or whatever is different than any other atheist. Just ask any atheist, they would say that current arguments for each faith in the form of biblical text, apostolic accounts and historical information are inadequate in proving the existence of God, gods or any such beings. Apparently you are still accusing me of being stubborn, how? We simply have additional criteria for putting faith in a being that very likely does not exist at all, no it's faith itself that we are incompatible with since our very being demands sufficient evidence of such a thing in order for us to give it such strong consideration. Without that, it is simply a fictional character. When I claimed it is simply not possible for me to become Muslim that's what I meant, Islam (what admittedly tiny amount I know about it) has simply failed to provide enough evidence to back up its claims. That's no fault of my own, and it's nothing I can really do about. If you feel differently please supply me with that evidence without baseless assertions.

And I never said I was "soured" in any way by religion, once again this reflects a common misconception that theists have about atheists; that we hate religion or look only at the negatives and that drives us away. Perhaps some atheists have bad experiences, I can't speak for them, all my experiences have been positive and enjoyable, but that doesn't mean I have to make it into my life's meaning. Please I encourage you to do more research and reassess what the meaning of being an atheist is, because I think you have some misunderstanding and assumptions clouding your judgement of it. I am also sorry if this seems blunt. Thank you.
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IAmZamzam
05-07-2013, 01:51 AM
Apparently you are still accusing me of being stubborn, how?...When I claimed it is simply not possible for me to become Muslim that's what I meant.

That is how! I couldn't help but notice also that you've admitted that you know a very tiny amount about this religion that it's simply not possible for you to join....

And yet you still ask me to supply you with evidence. Why should I bother?

By my reference to a bad experience you perhaps think I'm referring to you being raised by an abusive preacher or something. That's not what I meant at all. I'm well aware that this isn't a movie we're living in. Real life is subtler and less dramatic (most of the time, at least). Our choices of words can reveal a lot about us:

After having been exposed to Christianity so much throughout my life and not simply rejecting it but figuring out what logic and reason has told me about the world and the nature of religions in general...

Has it not occurred to you that people practically always believe that what they're doing mentally is really just "logic and reason"?

It's food for thought anyway. I never claimed to know any of these things for certain.
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NL.
05-07-2013, 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
I think a big misconception among Christian Atheists is that they think Islam and Christianity are the exact same and that Islam offers the same thing as Christianity. That is definitely not true. In that case, why would Christian even become Muslims then? I think that is a relevant question for an Atheist to ask.
I'm curious why would you suggest there is such a thing as a Christian Atheist? Every atheist I know, have ever met and talked to online lacks a belief in a generic deity figure, never specifically singling out any specific deity. No atheist claims disbelief in deities of specific creeds; ALL GODS because of the fact that ANY creed represented by a deity are equally scrutinized on their existence.

So if Islam is truly different, and I admit I know very little about it (and I'm not asking right now to point to a specific example) but do you strongly believe there is something for an atheist to learn that would satisfy their requirement of concrete evidence that everything about it is real and true? If you do believe that, then I happily accept the challenge and I will learn about it. But right off the bat, what I got from the OP post is essentially a threat that once I have taken in an interest in Islam to reject it would have dire consequences. Do you not understand how that probably more than anything is extremely unconvincing and a guaranteed turnoff to any atheist? Threats in any argument almost always invalidate any shed of possibility that a logical, well-reasoned discussion can even take place.
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greenhill
05-07-2013, 03:09 AM
Greetings NL - "Just ask any atheist, they would say that current arguments for each faith in the form of biblical text, apostolic accounts and historical information are inadequate in proving the existence of God, gods or any such beings."

That is the thing. It is hard to argue on faith using the biblical text, or any other text for that matter with the exception of the Quran. It is just whether we can let go of the pre conceived ideas.
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Ahmad H
05-07-2013, 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by NL.
I'm curious why would you suggest there is such a thing as a Christian Atheist? Every atheist I know, have ever met and talked to online lacks a belief in a generic deity figure, never specifically singling out any specific deity. No atheist claims disbelief in deities of specific creeds; ALL GODS because of the fact that ANY creed represented by a deity are equally scrutinized on their existence.

So if Islam is truly different, and I admit I know very little about it (and I'm not asking right now to point to a specific example) but do you strongly believe there is something for an atheist to learn that would satisfy their requirement of concrete evidence that everything about it is real and true? If you do believe that, then I happily accept the challenge and I will learn about it. But right off the bat, what I got from the OP post is essentially a threat that once I have taken in an interest in Islam to reject it would have dire consequences. Do you not understand how that probably more than anything is extremely unconvincing and a guaranteed turnoff to any atheist? Threats in any argument almost always invalidate any shed of possibility that a logical, well-reasoned discussion can even take place.
Well, I suggested Christian Atheist because you rejected religion based off of the faith of Christianity, not any other religion. You are an Atheist like any other nonetheless. My pointing out you were Christian was to make a point that you had a perspective of religion based on that view. There are Hindu Atheists, Muslim Atheists, etc. And those are only those who rejected those religions. Some are born Atheist and are only Atheist.

And as to knowing if Islam is concrete and true based on some evidence, i don't know if an Atheist who learned about Islam would consider it true or not. What I believe may be concrete evidence, and you might still reject it altogether based on your own understanding of things. To explain, imagine the concept of revelation from God. I have a friend who is Agnostic with whom I speak about religion more than almost anyone else I have ever known (quite literally). Yet, despite anything I tell him, the one thing he does not give the time of day and considers to be so outlandish as to not even be worth his time, is the idea that God speaks to man. He things all of that is pure hocus pocus and will never listen to anything like that. Yet, religion is based purely off of Prophethood, the very fact that God spoke to the Prophets of old.

Furthermore, what these Prophets spoke of was the unseen, things which cannot be known to man, yet they are given as knowledge to them by God. This could mean something which happens and they were not present at but they learned of it, a future event, a fact of life or a teaching and story from a past religion they never knew of, etc. Other things include miracles and certain supernatural instances which no magician or person can fake but which are considered true for whatever reason. If you give the idea of Prophethood a chance, then you can engage in a meaningful discussion. But if you are one of those people who would never want to talk about it, then you will not be able to understand Islam at all. The whole religion was revealed by God. If you take that away, then you will never understand it and then you cannot consider yourself open-minded in a discussion. I don't consider my Agnostic friend open-minded, though he likes to assume he is.

As for threats of being punished for rejecting Islam, I don't know why you would worry about it since you don't believe in a God in the first place. That threat shouldn't mean anything to you. I had another friend who I told about the punishment of Hell (based on a question she asked), and she said she wouldn't mind Hell. I told her it is a terrible place, but she said she would still enjoy it. I told her good luck and enjoy being burnt. She still didn't get the idea that Hell is made to be a place we don't like. So, my point is that if you don't believe in it, then it shouldn't matter. But I agree that it is a big turnoff for discussion.

As for a well-reasoned logical discussion, we would have to point out from the very beginning what entails a well-reasoned and logical discussion. I already told you that it has to be open-minded. We would have to know what the purpose in mind is as well. If it is for you to understand Islam better, then you have to open up to new perspectives. If it is on the idea of Islam and how an Atheist perceives it, then it would be philosophical and we on this forum would have to adapt (although, since we are Muslim we have certain limits on what we can say so that we do not displease God). That being said, you explain the purpose of a discussion you want, and then we can go over what would constitute a well-reasoned logical discussion.

If anything I said wasn't clear, let me know. I am just about to go to sleep so I might be a little off in my thinking right now.
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sister herb
05-07-2013, 03:38 AM
I was atheist before. Now I am muslim. Yes, atheist can become muslim - if it is will of Allah.

:D


Greetings to NL.
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titus
05-07-2013, 04:10 AM
That is the thing. It is hard to argue on faith using the biblical text, or any other text for that matter with the exception of the Quran. It is just whether we can let go of the pre conceived ideas.
Why is the Quran different to you than the others?

And what pre-conceived ideas are you referring to?
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glo
05-07-2013, 06:17 AM
Originally Posted by NL.
I'm curious why would you suggest there is such a thing as a Christian Atheist? Every atheist I know, have ever met and talked to online lacks a belief in a generic deity figure, never specifically singling out any specific deity. No atheist claims disbelief in deities of specific creeds; ALL GODS because of the fact that ANY creed represented by a deity are equally scrutinized on their existence.
Not wanting to take this thread off topic, but there ARE people who call themselves Christian atheists (or perhaps atheist Christians) - namely those who don't believe in God and don;t believe that Jesus was anything more than a wise teacher, whose teachings and example is worth following and living by. :)

I think for the sake of this discussion Ahmad referred to you as a Christian atheist because you seem to be (according to your first post) an atheist who grew up in the Christian culture and therefore has experiences and knowledge of Christian beliefs.

As somebody who is married to an atheist, I don't buy into this "being too stubborn to accept God" thinking. In my experience atheists like to think things through clearly, methodically and rationally ... and simply come away with the conclusion that the existence of God makes no sense to them.
Any atheist who through his/her thinking and pondering came away convinced that God can and does exist (and those people are around), would cease to be an atheist and become a believer. Why would anybody say "I believe that God exists but I'm too proud to admit it?

We are each on our own journey. Let's keep it that way. :)
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Darth Ultor
05-07-2013, 06:28 AM
Simple. I don't like religions. They all have double standards and believe that if you don't follow what they say, you'll go to hell. Granted there are many religious people that I like in all faiths but religion itself lowers God to the level of man. I mean, think about it. The Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran give God attributes like jealousy, the ability to hold grudges, anger, the ability to make the wrong decisions...do I need to go further? God is greater than His creation because He doesn't habe the faults of His creation. He is perfect.
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sister herb
05-07-2013, 09:27 AM
Originally Posted by glo
Not wanting to take this thread off topic, but there ARE people who call themselves Christian atheists (or perhaps atheist Christians) - namely those who don't believe in God and don;t believe that Jesus was anything more than a wise teacher, whose teachings and example is worth following and living by. :)

I think for the sake of this discussion Ahmad referred to you as a Christian atheist because you seem to be (according to your first post) an atheist who grew up in the Christian culture and therefore has experiences and knowledge of Christian beliefs.

As somebody who is married to an atheist, I don't buy into this "being too stubborn to accept God" thinking. In my experience atheists like to think things through clearly, methodically and rationally ... and simply come away with the conclusion that the existence of God makes no sense to them.
Any atheist who through his/her thinking and pondering came away convinced that God can and does exist (and those people are around), would cease to be an atheist and become a believer. Why would anybody say "I believe that God exists but I'm too proud to admit it?

We are each on our own journey. Let's keep it that way. :)
I was just what Glo writes. Atheist Christian before. I was member of church in cause my parents. But I am I, not them. I read many religions, they teachings, history before I understood that I have to be muslim.

:statisfie

Thanks Glo. I may understand myself better when I read your posts.
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greenhill
05-07-2013, 09:36 AM
Peace to you, Titus.

Generally you most probably have already come across the answers to your questions in other threads, like about muslim belief in the Quran as being the word of Allah, unchanged, protected until the end of times etc. the statements it makes, whether scientific or otherwise, no contradictions in message and so forth.

For me, personally, all the prophets preached the same underlying message. Believe in God and to do good things. As humans race matured over time, the messages also became more elaborate, like the Torah teaching the 'mechanics' of life -to do unto others what you expect others to do unto you. The Bible brought it to the next level, which is to teach the concept of forgiveness (so to end generational feuds) and with that the Quran came to complete the teachings by putting about laws on how to live in a community. It is a continuation from the previous Books and the Book to end all Books.
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glo
05-07-2013, 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by sister harb
I was just what Glo writes. Atheist Christian before. I was member of church in cause my parents. But I am I, not them. I read many religions, they teachings, history before I understood that I have to be muslim.

:statisfie

Thanks Glo. I may understand myself better when I read your posts.
I sometimes feel that rather than trying to push people to convert to one faith or another, we should encourage people the become earnest and honest seekers - and then rejoice with them when they find the path they believe is the right one to walk (which isn't always easy when the path THEY choose isn't the path WE have chosen for ourselves ... but that's the challenge of free will and religious freedom. :shade:)
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Eric H
05-07-2013, 11:14 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Darth Ultor;

but religion itself lowers God to the level of man. I mean, think about it. The Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran give God attributes like jealousy, the ability to hold grudges, anger, the ability to make the wrong decisions...do I need to go further?
I think if you were able to look down on mankind and see all the things that God sees; you would not be very happy either.

God is greater than His creation because He doesn't habe the faults of His creation. He is perfect.
Agreed.

In the spirit of searching for a just and merciful God.

Eric
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greenhill
05-07-2013, 11:50 AM
Peace to you Darth Ultor,

"Simple. I don't like religions. They all have double standards and believe that if you don't follow what they say, you'll go to hell."

I think the double standard is caused by human flaws. It is not God's work. Most of the misconceptions are caused by people themselves through either not understanding the situation, or the options available to them. There are often caveats to certain sets of rules, not all have caveats, but the underlying theme usually is defined by 'intent'.

All religion can be painted in a harsh light and portrayed in an extreme way to the point where one mentions Islam, the associated word to it is something totally different. Islam is entirely different from portrayed image in the media.

I don't subscribe to God being jealous, holding grudges or making mistakes, these are human arguments. God laid down some rules, essentially to worship Him alone, do good, be kind, etc, and you get your just rewards, if you don't then you get your penance. There's no grudge, jealousy or mistakes in judgement here.
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Ahmad H
05-07-2013, 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by Darth Ultor
all faiths but religion itself lowers God to the level of man. I mean, think about it. The Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran give God attributes like jealousy, the ability to hold grudges, anger, the ability to make the wrong decisions...do I need to go further? God is greater than His creation because He doesn't habe the faults of His creation. He is perfect.
Darth Ultor, I think these ideas of jealousy are more akin to the Biblical God. I don't believe you have read or studied the Qur'an. God doesn't hold any grudges, and His giving punishment does not make Him human. I hope you can take a little time to read why:

When He punishes a nation of people, He is doing it as a last resort after sending Prophets to them to try and reform them. Sometimes He sends multiple Prophets that are killed. He gives every chance for those people to change their ways first. He does not send it out of hate or anger. It is done so that the nation which is deemed to be punished doesn't continue to spread their corruption beyond their own borders into the rest of the world. It is like taking a diseased limb out of the body and removing it to save the rest. That is what that nation is compared to the rest of the world. They weren't just corrupt, but they were aiming to spread their corruption.

As for anger, God deals with everyone's punishment severely because He only does it to the absolute worst of people. As for this punishment itself, He is the only One Who can do it. Humans are not allowed to punish like God does. For example, if a child does wrong, we are not allowed to hit our children because only Allah punishes. The only situation in which it is allowed for us to hit our children, is to get them to do their prayer around the age of 10 so that they realize they need to be obedient to Allah. And perhaps at later ages if they do not listen. Otherwise, we have no right to do so. And that is only when they refuse to go and pray. This has more to do with the fact that we Muslims believe that we exist in the first place to recognize Allah and worship Him. Furthermore, it is forbidden for us to punish with fire, because only Allah punishes with fire. That is reserved for Him.

The traits that we humans have are part of some of the traits which God has anyways. If He is our Creator, then having been made in His image, what else would you expect? If the Bible teaches that, then it is really obvious that from the get go it tells you that some of our traits are really His traits. For example, take love. If God is Perfect, then why does He love? The answer is that His love is Perfect. The love that creation shares with one another, the love of a mother for her children (which no love can be greater than this) which is seen by animals and humans, is only 1/100th of the kind of love which Allah has for us.

As for His punishment, you need only look at this one Hadith:

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "When Allah completed the creation, He wrote in His Book which is with Him on His Throne, "My mercy overpowers My Anger." (Book #54, Hadith #416)
(Sahih Bukhari)

The perfect knowledge of Allah comes from knowing what His 99 attributes are. He also commands self-respect among humans like He has for Himself:

Narrated Abu Wail: 'Abdullah (bin Mas'ud) said, "None has more sense of ghaira than Allah therefore - He prohibits shameful sins (illegal sexual intercourse, etc.) whether committed openly or secretly. And none loves to be praised more than Allah does, and for this reason He praises Himself." I asked Abu Wali, "Did you hear it from Abdullah?" He said, "Yes," I said, "Did Abdullah ascribe it to Allah's Apostle?" He said, "Yes." (Book #60, Hadith #158)
(Sahih Bukhari)

As for praising Himself, this is because His praise is the perfect praise and there is no taint of want or need in it. He is the only One worthy of all praise. The second verse of the Qur'an says, "All praise belongs to Allah" in Surah Fatiha. We may have the traits of self-respect, but only Allah has the perfect self-respect. So if He has any traits, He has it to perfection. His anger is limited by His Mercy, and it never overcomes it like it does in humans. Only humans can be tyrants.
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IAmZamzam
05-07-2013, 01:59 PM
They all have double standards…

That was hardly communicative.

…and believe that if you don’t follow what they say, you’ll go to hell.

Do you have any idea what a small percentage of the world’s religions even teach the existence of hell in the first place?

Granted there are many religious people that I like in all faiths but religion itself lowers God to the level of man. I mean, think about it. The Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran give God attributes like jealousy…

"The Gospel" as in "al-Injil"? That can't even be positively identified, except as something personally recorded (in some sense) by Jesus. If you're referring to biblical texts then I prefer to let the Christians here speak for themselves (i.e. I'm going to be lazy about that). Anyway name the place where The Qur’an tells us that He’s a jealous God. Go ahead, name it. That is The Torah you’re thinking of (or the version of it we have now, anyway).

…the ability to hold grudges, anger…

Off the top of my head I can’t remember a specific verse about Allah being angry with anyone or holding a grudge but in this case I can easily grant the possibility. I do know of a hadith in which He says to a man who is released from hell that the true greatest gift he’s been given is “my good pleasure, for I shall now never be angry with you again”. But is anger an inherently evil trait, without any times when it is justified? Remember that The Qur’an is a poem. If it’s allowed to describe the heaven and the earth as “coming forth willingly” when they were created, and shadows “prostrating themselves” to Allah, there is certainly nothing wrong with it using the same literary device when describing Allah himself!

the ability to make the wrong decisions...do I need to go further? God is greater than His creation because He doesn't habe the faults of His creation. He is perfect.

Yes, you do, because you have once again not supported your assertions. It is—yet again—The Bible and not The Qur’an which keeps saying things like “and The LORD repented of the evil which He thought to do to His people”. Not once does this happen in His true holy Word.

You see what I mean about antireligious people typically seeming to just be soured by Christianity or some other particular belief system? They think it’s all the same to them and they’re quite adamant about that but actions speak louder than words and their actions betray them time and again. You keep saying that this stuff is in all of these biblical texts as well as in The Qur'an--but it keeps turning out to be only The Bible you're really thinking of and getting mad about.
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Gator
05-07-2013, 05:38 PM
Hola,

Originally Posted by MrKhan89
what's holding you back to becoming muslim?
Not believing in god would probably be the # 1 reason.

Originally Posted by MrKhan89
why are you even here if you are not planning to become muslim?
I like learning about religion and like hearing where people are coming from.

Originally Posted by MrKhan89
don't you realize that if you have looked up information on islam and if any of the members here told you the truth about islam, you have would to make a BIG decision.
I don't see it as a "decision". I mean, if I do or don't believe it, it not really choice. You can't really choose to live one way if you believe something else.

Plus, I would think god would be able to tell.


Originally Posted by MrKhan89
If you still reject islam after hearing the exact truth about it, you could be in trouble in the here after.
Could be.

Thanks.
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Jedi_Mindset
07-05-2013, 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by MrKhan89
if you non-muslims wanted to ask some questions about islam, that's fine, but once you asked your questions and got them answered, you can leave the forum and not say anything else after that. Lurking in this particular forum and not having the intention of becoming muslim is just pointless.
Thats not how you should treat each other mate. This forum has the view to reach a common ground between different faiths. Work on your character first. You are basically forcing them to become muslims and that isnt islamic behaviour at all, the sahabah(Ra) conquered lands but they didnt force the people to become muslim.

Assalam alaykum
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Born_Believer
07-05-2013, 10:05 AM
Originally Posted by NL.
Hey interesting question. I'm an atheist, I don't think I could become a Muslim, that has never been a desire or possibility in any way. After having been exposed to Christianity so much throughout my life and not simply rejecting it but figuring out what logic and reason has told me about the world and the nature of religions in general, I don't see how it's possible that Islam could provide me with or prove something to me what Christianity couldn't.

I came here to learn more about Islam because I realized after the Boston bombings I had all these questions come up and mostly what I was asking reflected a gross lack of understanding of it. I didn't like that, I wanted to take a fair look at Islam and gain a perspective of Muslims themselves from their experiences, ideas and worries. There's much to discover but there's simply no way that discovery will make me view Islam in a way that I'll want to start living it or practicing it. I have always been an atheist, I will always be and I am absolutely positive of that. It's not stubbornness it's my culmination of thought and pondering of the universe that leads me to that conclusion. People who aren't atheists simply have come to a different conclusion about these things and that's perfectly fine, I respect them, and I hope they can respect me in that regard.
This is a very well written post. I obviously don't agree with your views on being an atheist but I respect them, plus I respect the fact that you came here to learn about Islam after the horrendous attacks in Boston, rather than simply falling blindly into the media invention. Any questions, feel free to ask.

Salam
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Born_Believer
07-05-2013, 10:10 AM
Originally Posted by MrKhan89
if you non-muslims wanted to ask some questions about islam, that's fine, but once you asked your questions and got them answered, you can leave the forum and not say anything else after that. Lurking in this particular forum and not having the intention of becoming muslim is just pointless.
Mr Khan why would he say that? Some people takes years to find faith, others mere days. Why should someone leave here if they have more questions or don't accept the answer straight away?

I personally prefer a forum with people who don't share the same beliefs as me but are willing to learn. That is beneficial for everyone involved.
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Ahmad H
07-05-2013, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by MrKhan89
if you non-muslims wanted to ask some questions about islam, that's fine, but once you asked your questions and got them answered, you can leave the forum and not say anything else after that. Lurking in this particular forum and not having the intention of becoming muslim is just pointless.
You shouldn't ostracize anyone from this forum because they are not turning Muslim. I think it's great that we can have discussions with Christians, Atheists, etc., because this means that we all learn from each other and we become more familiar with each other's beliefs and ideologies. Islam is about achieving world peace. It comes with one step at a time. What we do here on this forum should be a reflection of how things should work out in our lives outside of our rooms and our computers. Everything we do is done to strive for peace. I think you should keep that in mind. This is the duty of every Muslim.
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greenhill
07-05-2013, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by titus
Why is the Quran different to you than the others?

And what pre-conceived ideas are you referring to?
Apologies, I didn't realise you were quoting me here.... only when I read the thread again that I see you quoted me, but my name does not appear:p.

First is that the Quran is the words of Allah verbatim. So the message is as He had intended it. No change. It is entirely how it is interpreted, and that is done by scholars.

The major pre-conceive ideas with with Christianity is the Trinity. It never was. Or the original sin which Jesus himself never claimed, but has been indoctrinated into the faith, etc.,

What the islamic faith states originates from the Quran (already accepted as Allah's words (by muslims)) and its elaboration and example via the sunnah of the prophet (pbuh). Nothing in the sunnah contradicts the Quran.

Apologies for being a bit dry but my 'original' thoughts when I wrote the bit you quoted is lost somewhere in the recesses of my memory.... :omg:
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chuckla
07-05-2013, 11:23 PM
I could never be an Atheist because this universe is too orderly and too beautiful to have come about by accident. Mankind with all his scientific expertise cannot from scratch create one blade of grass. But this earth is much much much more than grass. It is trees, flowers, planets, people, animals, reptiles, insects, etc..etc.. All of these functioning according to an intelligent plan. The riddle is: How did such diversity come from Spirit, which is always the same but ever new and seems not to exist because it cannot be perceived by the 5 senses. How did this Universe which seems so real come from that which seems to not be real at all.
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Icy Maiden
07-11-2013, 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by MrKhan89
what's holding you back to becoming muslim?

why are you even here if you are not planning to become muslim?

don't you realize that if you have looked up information on islam and if any of the members here told you the truth about islam, you have would to make a BIG decision.


If you still reject islam after hearing the exact truth about it, you could be in trouble in the here after.
I accepted Islam some years ago but have faced a great deal of problems after that. Sometimes I wonder if I made the right choice. So even if people become Muslim today, there is no guarantee that they will always be Muslim later on.
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chuckla
07-11-2013, 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by Darth Ultor
Simple. I don't like religions. They all have double standards and believe that if you don't follow what they say, you'll go to hell. Granted there are many religious people that I like in all faiths but religion itself lowers God to the level of man. I mean, think about it. The Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran give God attributes like jealousy, the ability to hold grudges, anger, the ability to make the wrong decisions...do I need to go further? God is greater than His creation because He doesn't habe the faults of His creation. He is perfect.
That is so true! God cannot hate, He cannot be jealous, He cannot worry. He can experience directly no negative human emotion. He can, however, experience these things indirectly through us. But even though He does, He is not affected at all. To Him it's like watching a movie. Peace, chuck
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Hulk
07-11-2013, 08:42 PM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
I accepted Islam some years ago but have faced a great deal of problems after that. Sometimes I wonder if I made the right choice. So even if people become Muslim today, there is no guarantee that they will always be Muslim later on.
I am sorry you feel that way but becoming muslim does not guarantee one a perfect life, rather it is merely the beginning of an even greater journey.
It is important for muslims to seek knowledge pertaining to their religion as it is hand in hand with imaan/conviction/faith.

"Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?"
Quran Sura Al-`Ankabut Verse 2

If one's level of knowledge is shallow then his faith can easily be shaken by the slightest trial, but if he has knowledge then he has conviction and no matter how strong the wind blows his faith is firm in its place.
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Icy Maiden
07-13-2013, 08:20 AM
Originally Posted by Hulk
I am sorry you feel that way but becoming muslim does not guarantee one a perfect life, rather it is merely the beginning of an even greater journey.
It is important for muslims to seek knowledge pertaining to their religion as it is hand in hand with imaan/conviction/faith.

"Do the people think that they will be left to say, "We believe" and they will not be tried?"
Quran Sura Al-`Ankabut Verse 2

If one's level of knowledge is shallow then his faith can easily be shaken by the slightest trial, but if he has knowledge then he has conviction and no matter how strong the wind blows his faith is firm in its place.
It is not the religion I have a problem with. It's the Muslims and their behaviour. It's contrary to the teachings of the Prophet sws. Frankly most of the Muslims I've seen, met or known infuriate me because they have a "I'm better than thou" attitude. So if there aren't any Muslims I can respect, which community am I supposed to join?
Sometimes the Christian community seems better to me because they have better manners.
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ardianto
07-13-2013, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
It is not the religion I have a problem with. It's the Muslims and their behaviour. It's contrary to the teachings of the Prophet sws. Frankly most of the Muslims I've seen, met or known infuriate me because they have a "I'm better than thou" attitude. So if there aren't any Muslims I can respect, which community am I supposed to join?
I'm never thinking that I'm a better Muslims compared with other Muslims who I know. But I'm sure that I understand Islam better than those who are thinking "I'm better than thou".

As I've ever written in another thread that Islam taught at least in two different ways. Through understanding and through indoctrination. Alhamdulillah, I learned Islam through understanding, not through indoctrination like those who have "I'm better than thou" attitude.

In learn Islam through understanding, a Muslim will be invited to ask, discuss, and seek answer direct from Qur'an and hadith, and also from other scholars. Understand the difference of opinion is an important part that taught in this learning method.

Different than learn Islam through indoctrination which the students always taught that other scholars opinions are wrong, and the only right scholars are their scholars. It's make them thinking that they must be right while other Muslims must be wrong.

There are communities where teaching Islam through understanding is more common than through indoctrination, there are communities where teaching Islam through indoctrination is more common than through understanding. I hope you can come to my place where people commonly learn Islam through understanding. And you can see attitude of Muslim toward other Muslims in my place that different than your assumption.

Sometimes the Christian community seems better to me because they have better manners.
Some of my relatives from my mother side are Christians. Few of my close friends are Christian. They are good people with good manner. That's why I can close with them. But it doesn't mean other Christians are good like them. And it's not true that Christians have better manner than Muslims. It's depend on personality, person per per person.
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MustafaMc
07-14-2013, 04:03 AM
Originally Posted by glo
Not wanting to take this thread off topic, but there ARE people who call themselves Christian atheists (or perhaps atheist Christians) - namely those who don't believe in God and don;t believe that Jesus was anything more than a wise teacher, whose teachings and example is worth following and living by.
Honestly, this is the first time I have ever read or heard of an 'atheist Christian'. I have spoken with a Reform Rabbi and she confirmed the possibility of an atheist Jew, but an atheist Christian blows my mind as an oxymoron. My understanding of what defines a Christian is one who believes in Jesus as the Son of God and simultaneously as one Person of the Godhead.

From what I have seen, non-Muslims come here for various reasons that are known only to them. Some may want to learn about Islam for their own personal edification or even to learn so they better can communicate with Muslims for whatever reason they intend. Some may even come to 'moderate' or 'liberalize' Muslims so they are not strict adherents to the Qur'an and the sunnah. Some may sense some commonality with Muslims and would like to see more interfaith dialog for the sake of mutual respect and understanding. Some may come to evangelize Muslims to become Christians or to show the 'the error of their ways' in beliving in God as the Creator of all that exists.
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Icy Maiden
07-14-2013, 05:19 AM
Originally Posted by Darth Ultor
Simple. I don't like religions. They all have double standards and believe that if you don't follow what they say, you'll go to hell. Granted there are many religious people that I like in all faiths but religion itself lowers God to the level of man. I mean, think about it. The Torah, the Gospel, and the Quran give God attributes like jealousy, the ability to hold grudges, anger, the ability to make the wrong decisions...do I need to go further? God is greater than His creation because He doesn't habe the faults of His creation. He is perfect.
Very nice perspective. I think this is the reason why people of all religions have "I'm better than thou" attitude, not just the Muslims. It's exactly as you said: religion itself lowers God to the level of man.

Each religion, including Islam states "You must do things this way or else you will go to Hell."
This explains why I don't feel comfortable in any community.
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Icy Maiden
07-14-2013, 05:34 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
I'm never thinking that I'm a better Muslims compared with other Muslims who I know. But I'm sure that I understand Islam better than those who are thinking "I'm better than thou".
What makes you so sure that you understand Islam better than others? Would you be able to accept the idea that you're wrong and that it is not you but me who has greater understanding?



Originally Posted by ardianto
Alhamdulillah, I learned Islam through understanding, not through indoctrination like those who have "I'm better than thou" attitude.
Are you not then placing yourself above those who learned Islam through indoctrination?


Originally Posted by ardianto
I hope you can come to my place where people commonly learn Islam through understanding. And you can see attitude of Muslim toward other Muslims in my place that different than your assumption.
In other words you are saying that people should come to you to learn about Islam because you're the only one who teaches the right religion, unlike others who have got it all wrong...?

Originally Posted by ardianto
Some of my relatives from my mother side are Christians. Few of my close friends are Christian. They are good people with good manner. That's why I can close with them. But it doesn't mean other Christians are good like them. And it's not true that Christians have better manner than Muslims. It's depend on personality, person per per person.
I said that I sometimes feel as though the Christian community is better compared to the Muslim. And this is only because there are some Christians who follow the teachings of Jesus in the right spirit.
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ardianto
07-14-2013, 02:25 PM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
What makes you so sure that you understand Islam better than others? Would you be able to accept the idea that you're wrong and that it is not you but me who has greater understanding?
I didn't say I understand Islam better than other Muslims, I just said that I understand Islam better than those who have attitude "I'm better than thou". It's sound like arrogancy, I know. But my purpose was to inform that we should not easy to be deceived by some people who act like they are the best Muslims. I know how people like them are.
Just for information. Muslims who understand Islam will not have attitude "I'm better than thou".

Are you not then placing yourself above those who learned Islam through indoctrination?
I did not place myself above them, but I dropped them down to the place where they must stand. They are not higher than other Muslims like their assumption. One negative effect of teaching Islam through indoctrination is create Muslims who feel that they are the only right Muslims while other Muslims are wrong. It has become concern of Muslim activists.

In other words you are saying that people should come to you to learn about Islam because you're the only one who teaches the right religion, unlike others who have got it all wrong...?
I forgot to mention that what I mean with my place is Indonesia, not just my majlis. I just wanted to say that you should not generalize all Muslims are arrogant. There are many kind and friendly Muslims in my place.

I said that I sometimes feel as though the Christian community is better compared to the Muslim. And this is only because there are some Christians who follow the teachings of Jesus in the right spirit.
My closest Christian relative is an activists in his Protestant church. My closest Christian friend is a Catholic guy who active in church too. I studied in Catholic elementary school, and I will never forget about love and attention that given by my teachers there. They didn't get married and lived in dormitory. Few times in every month they visited my home. They walked on their feet because they didn't have any vehicle. They are good Christian people.

I understand if sometime you feel Christian community is better than Muslim community. It's because you compare good Christians with bad Muslims. But I have meet many good Muslims who always respect other people regardless of their belief. Also I have meet a number of bad Christian who very far from their faith.

Do not generalize.
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Icy Maiden
07-14-2013, 04:45 PM
[MOUSE][/MOUSE]
Originally Posted by ardianto
I understand if sometime you feel Christian community is better than Muslim community. It's because you compare good Christians with bad Muslims. But I have meet many good Muslims who always respect other people regardless of their belief. Also I have meet a number of bad Christian who very far from their faith.

Do not generalize.
What do you mean by good Muslim and good Christian? How do you know who is good?
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Icy Maiden
07-14-2013, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
I understand if sometime you feel Christian community is better than Muslim community. It's because you compare good Christians with bad Muslims. But I have meet many good Muslims who always respect other people regardless of their belief. Also I have meet a number of bad Christian who very far from their faith.

Do not generalize.
Also how do you know who is bad Muslim or bad Christian? How do you know who is far from or near to their faith?
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sister herb
07-14-2013, 05:08 PM
Maybe he just meant they manners towards of other people... :rollseyes
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ardianto
07-14-2013, 05:08 PM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
What do you mean by good Muslim and good Christian? How do you know who is good?
Also how do you know who is bad Muslim or bad Christian? How do you know who is far from or near to their faith?
There are few indicator such as obedience to God, good deed, good attitude toward other people, etc. I measure someone is good or bad from his behavior, not from what he say about himself.
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Icy Maiden
07-16-2013, 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
There are few indicator such as obedience to God, good deed, good attitude toward other people, etc. I measure someone is good or bad from his behavior, not from what he say about himself.
So if I pray five times a day, fast in month of Ramadan, wear the niqab, read Quran etc you would adjudge me to be a good Muslim. But if I don't I'm a bad Muslim?
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Hulk
07-16-2013, 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
So if I pray five times a day, fast in month of Ramadan, wear the niqab, read Quran etc you would adjudge me to be a good Muslim. But if I don't I'm a bad Muslim?
If one outwardly carries out all obligatory duties of a muslim and more, then certainly that person would be considered a good muslim by others, whether the person's intention is proper or not we do not know. But indeed how a person is outwardly can be a reflection of what is within. We are not "judging" as though we are from a higher status but merely evaluating from what is the outward.
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ardianto
07-16-2013, 01:47 PM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
So if I pray five times a day, fast in month of Ramadan, wear the niqab, read Quran etc you would adjudge me to be a good Muslim. But if I don't I'm a bad Muslim?
If you pray five times a day, fast in month of Ramadan, wear the niqab, read Quran, but you have bad attitude and bad behavior such as arrogant, look down on other people, love to gossip and backbiting, you are not good Muslim.

If you have good behavior and good attitude toward other people, but you often miss salah, miss fasting, never read Qur'an, etc, you are not a good Muslim too.
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Icy Maiden
07-18-2013, 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
If you pray five times a day, fast in month of Ramadan, wear the niqab, read Quran, but you have bad attitude and bad behavior such as arrogant, look down on other people, love to gossip and backbiting, you are not good Muslim.
Agreed.

Originally Posted by ardianto
If you have good behavior and good attitude toward other people, but you often miss salah, miss fasting, never read Qur'an, etc, you are not a good Muslim too.
Don't agree. Only Allah can judge this. He can forgive everything except bad behavior (arrogant attitude) towards others.
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sister herb
07-18-2013, 07:13 PM
Salam alaykum

How do we know that Allah can´t forgive also bad behavior against others if he can forgives missing salah etc? You are right, we need to leave judging to Allah only, not generalize others neither judge them. Must better start to think how we behave by ourselves, not how others behave.
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Icy Maiden
07-18-2013, 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
Salam alaykum

How do we know that Allah can´t forgive also bad behavior against others if he can forgives missing salah etc? You are right, we need to leave judging to Allah only, not generalize others neither judge them. Must better start to think how we behave by ourselves, not how others behave.
Yes, thank you sister for your observation. We cannot judge who is good or bad. That is Allah's job.
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Icy Maiden
07-18-2013, 07:32 PM
Originally Posted by Hulk
If one outwardly carries out all obligatory duties of a muslim and more, then certainly that person would be considered a good muslim by others, whether the person's intention is proper or not we do not know. But indeed how a person is outwardly can be a reflection of what is within. We are not "judging" as though we are from a higher status but merely evaluating from what is the outward.
Well if actions are judged by intentions then nobody has any business to judge whether a person is a good Muslim or not.

Besides, there's a saying appearances are deceptive.
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hojuruku
07-19-2013, 01:36 PM
The Holy Qur'an would classify me as the unlearned. It takes time to become a good Muslim and change ones ways. I'm too busy fighting evil and trying to stay alive as a refugee from Australia. I've seen corruption, and I"ve been accused of Australia's rarest crime (60c NSW Crimes Act). I've learn't that in this world there is true evil so one realizes their is Allah. That's why I classified my religion as Agnostic.

I have much work to do.
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ardianto
07-19-2013, 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
Yes, thank you sister for your observation. We cannot judge who is good or bad. That is Allah's job.
I never judge anyone. I did not say bad person will always bad or good person will always good, like some people who like to judge the others.

If I say someone is walking on the wrong path, it's just a reminder to make him realize and back to the right path. I always believe that everyone can changed, the bad can turn into the good, the good can change into the bad.

I cannot claim that I'm a good Muslim now, although I always grateful that now I'm better than in the past when I was a drug user and marijuana smoker.

I could leave the dark hole because I lived among people who always remind me when I did something wrong.

There is difference between judging and remind. Try to understand the difference between these two things.
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Icy Maiden
07-20-2013, 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
I never judge anyone. I did not say bad person will always bad or good person will always good, like some people who like to judge the others.
Your following words sound like you are passing a judgment though...

Originally Posted by ardianto
If you pray five times a day, fast in month of Ramadan, wear the niqab, read Quran, but you have bad attitude and bad behavior such as arrogant, look down on other people, love to gossip and backbiting, you are not good Muslim.

If you have good behavior and good attitude toward other people, but you often miss salah, miss fasting, never read Qur'an, etc, you are not a good Muslim too.
But I thank you for bringing out the point that a person who is bad may not always be bad and a person who is good may not always be good. All the more reason why we cannot ever think or say about anyone that "He or she is a good Muslim" or that "He or she is a bad Muslim."

I don't say people are bad Muslims but I do say I have a problem with their behaviour. I find most of them arrogant. +o( They act as though they are the ones going to heaven and everybody else who doesn't follow their way is going to hell. If this is what Islam has taught them to be like then I don't know if I have made the right choice of religion. ^o)
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MustafaMc
07-20-2013, 10:13 AM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
They act as though they are the ones going to heaven and everybody else who doesn't follow their way is going to hell. If this is what Islam has taught them to be like then I don't know if I have made the right choice of religion.
I don't believe it is good to get hung up on who is going to Heaven and who is not, or even on those who believe they are the only ones going to Heaven. Muslims should all hold out hope that Allah (swt) will have mercy on them while doing there best to follow the Qur'an and sunnah realizing that no one can by their deeds alone earn their way into Heaven. We should strive to purify our hearts and intentions and to live a life of struggle against evil and of being merciful to others. Allah (swt) alone has the right to judge people and we have no authority to question His decisions on Judgement Day. With that said I don't think we should consider those outside of Islam as likely to be saved from the Hellfire while realizing that Allah's (swt) mercy is immense and He may yet guide those we consider astray and those we consider to be on the Straight Way may go astray before their death.

To question one's religion on the basis of behavior and attitudes of others who claim to adhere to the same religion seems to be demonstrating a lack of faith in Allah (swt) and His messenger, Muhammad (saaws). I see that it is preferable to make a decision to worship Allah (swt) in the manner He has prescribed regardless of what other people do and say, even in the name of Islam.
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ardianto
07-20-2013, 03:16 PM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
Your following words sound like you are passing a judgment though...

But I thank you for bringing out the point that a person who is bad may not always be bad and a person who is good may not always be good. All the more reason why we cannot ever think or say about anyone that "He or she is a good Muslim" or that "He or she is a bad Muslim."
If someone had bad behavior I could not say he has good behavior. But like I've said, there's difference between judging and remind, and we must able to distinguish it.

I give example of judging and remind.

#1 "You will not get a friend because you are arrogant"
#2 "You will not get a friend if you still arrogant"

Can you distinguish which judging which remind? :)

I don't say people are bad Muslims but I do say I have a problem with their behaviour. I find most of them arrogant. +o( They act as though they are the ones going to heaven and everybody else who doesn't follow their way is going to hell. If this is what Islam has taught them to be like then I don't know if I have made the right choice of religion. ^o)
As a Muslim I believe that Islam is the only right path, while other religions are wrong. Does it makes me become arrogant person?. My Christian relatives and friends believe that Christianity is the only right path, while other religions, including Islam, are wrong. But I don't think they are arrogant because they respect my choice to always live in Islam, just like I respect their choice to always live in their religion.

Concept of religious tolerance is respect the difference. Different than concept of religious pluralism that believe that every religion is right.

I do not follow religious pluralism because if I believe every religion is right, must be I have moved from one religion into other religion, to other religion, to other religion. :D

Every religion must be teach its believer that this religion is the only right way to heaven. You can confirm it to people from every religion.

I do dawah too. I tell about Islam to non-Muslims. Not only in IB but also in the real world. But I never force any non-Muslim to embrace Islam because there is no compulsion to become Muslim. If a non-Muslim interested to embrace Islam, In Shaa Allah, I will help. If not?, it's okay. But I hope he/she understand that Islam is not a cruel religion like shown in the propaganda from anti-Islam people.

Back to your statement that most of Muslims are arrogant. Like I've ever said, you can come to my country and see the reality that there are many Muslims who can respect other religions. Do not say "Most of Muslims are .... " if you ever meet only few of them.
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Icy Maiden
07-21-2013, 07:52 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
To question one's religion on the basis of behavior and attitudes of others who claim to adhere to the same religion seems to be demonstrating a lack of faith in Allah (swt) and His messenger, Muhammad (saaws). I see that it is preferable to make a decision to worship Allah (swt) in the manner He has prescribed regardless of what other people do and say, even in the name of Islam.
You are right. It is a demonstration of lack of faith. I have absolutely no faith in the way of life of the Muslims today. This makes me a non-Muslim.

But I do believe in one God and in Prophet Muhammad sws. This makes me a Muslim.

So what am I? A Muslim or non-Muslim? ^o)
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Icy Maiden
07-21-2013, 08:02 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
As a Muslim I believe that Islam is the only right path, while other religions are wrong.
There's a problem with this for Muslims themselves fight over which this right path is. In India there are all these divisions each claiming that their way is the right way. And all of them say they are Muslims and follow Islam. Yet each group has different way of doing things. You just have to go to a matrimonial site and see the various categories of Muslims there are. :rolleyes:

So if someone cares to enlighten me a bit, which of all these groups is the only right path?
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Alpha Dude
07-21-2013, 08:11 AM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
It is not the religion I have a problem with. It's the Muslims and their behaviour. It's contrary to the teachings of the Prophet sws. Frankly most of the Muslims I've seen, met or known infuriate me because they have a "I'm better than thou" attitude. So if there aren't any Muslims I can respect, which community am I supposed to join?
Sometimes the Christian community seems better to me because they have better manners.
You shouldn't care so much of what others behave like. Even if it was you against the world, you should hold on to the truth for truth's sake. If you are strong enough, guide others who you see making mistakes. You will be questioned for your own actions once you die, not the action of others.

You are right. It is a demonstration of lack of faith. I have absolutely no faith in the way of life of the Muslims today. This makes me a non-Muslim.
No it doesn't. Believing that the Muslims of today are not following the path of true guidance does not make you a non-muslim. There is a set of criteria which must be met in order to classify one outside of the fold of Islam and this is not one of them.

So if someone cares to enlighten me a bit, which of all these groups is the only right path?
You should be aware that within Sunni Islam, there are different schools of jurisprudence with different views but all are considered valid. It may be these schools that you could have read and assumed there were more sects than there are.

To answer your question, I will say it is Sunni Islam that is the correct path. Don't take my word for it. I only urge you to make a clear and unbiased study and couple that with true dua for guidance to Allah, then you will in sha Allah settle on the path that is correct.
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MustafaMc
07-21-2013, 11:01 AM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
I have absolutely no faith in the way of life of the Muslims today. This makes me a non-Muslim.
I am not sure what you mean by "no faith in the way of life of Muslims today", but I take it to mean that you do not agree with the application of the Qur'an and sunnah to every day life as understood by Muslims today.
But I do believe in one God and in Prophet Muhammad sws. This makes me a Muslim.
Islam is more than just a set of beliefs as it is also a way of life that includes ritual prayer, fasting, prescribed charity, and pilgrimage to Mecca. In addition to these acts of worship are other directives including what we can eat, how we dress, legal means to satisfy sexual urge, etc.
So what am I? A Muslim or non-Muslim? ^o)
That is a question between you and Allah (swt), but again Islam is more than mere belief. If you believe that Prophet Muhammad (saaws) is the Messenger of Allah, then by default you accept Islam as your way of life and you should strive to learn and apply his sunnah to your life.
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ardianto
07-21-2013, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
There's a problem with this for Muslims themselves fight over which this right path is. In India there are all these divisions each claiming that their way is the right way. And all of them say they are Muslims and follow Islam. Yet each group has different way of doing things. You just have to go to a matrimonial site and see the various categories of Muslims there are. :rolleyes:

So if someone cares to enlighten me a bit, which of all these groups is the only right path?
Khilafiyah (difference of opinion) is normal among Muslims. And if someone learn Islam through "methodology of understanding" he must be know the background of these differences and how he should behave toward it.

Unfortunately, not every Muslim have enough understanding on khilafiyah. And the worse is, they are easy to be attacked by 'disease' that called "Hizbiyah" or "extreme spirit of the corp". It make them establish or join in an exclusive group which they regard their group as the only right Muslim group while the other are wrong.

My advice is, do not easily influenced by "the hizbiyun" who try to convince you that their group is the only right Muslim group and if you do not follow them you will go to hell.

Which group that on the right path?.

Not every Muslim understand that what Rasulullah (saw) meant with "the saved firqah" is based on characteristic of Muslim, not based on group like tandzim, jamaah, or hizb.

So, do not thinking "I should join in this group". Just try to become a better Muslim.

:)
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Hamza Asadullah
07-21-2013, 04:22 PM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden


I don't say people are bad Muslims but I do say I have a problem with their behaviour. I find most of them arrogant. +o( They act as though they are the ones going to heaven and everybody else who doesn't follow their way is going to hell. If this is what Islam has taught them to be like then I don't know if I have made the right choice of religion. ^o)
:sl:

Firstly sister you say we should not judge but then you are making a judgement on the way "Most Muslims" think and behave when you have not even met most Muslims in order to make such a judgement. If certain people have acted in a way that you do not like then this has nothing to do with how "most Muslims behave". We should never paint everyone with the same brush because everyone is different. There is good and bad everywhere. We should concentrate on being the best we can be so that we can be the best example on other people.

We should not have such negative attitude and start labelling people. Our aim must be to be the best people we can possibly be and the standard of how we should be has been set for us by our beloved Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) who was sent as a mercy and to perfect the character of mankind. Other people will always show bad behaviour whether they are Muslims or not but it is also a test for us to see how we will react. If we react similarly to them then what is the difference between them and us? One should always take the higher moral ground. One should also always aim to be as humble as possible. A Muslim never thinks they are better than the other. Also other people will be accountable for their own actions.

So let us have a positive attitude and concentrate on bettering ourselves in terms of our characters rather than merely looking at others characters and behaviours. We will be accountable for our own actions and not the actions of others. We will also be accountable for the way we reacted to other peoples behaviours. So our focus must be our actions and behaviours and not the actions and behaviours of others.

May Allah enable us to have the characteristics like his beloved Prophet Muhammad (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) Ameen.
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Icy Maiden
07-23-2013, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
I am not sure what you mean by "no faith in the way of life of Muslims today", but I take it to mean that you do not agree with the application of the Qur'an and sunnah to every day life as understood by Muslims today.
Correct. I don't think it is necessary to pray 5 times a day, wear hijab, fast in Ramadan or even go to Mecca for Hajj.
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Icy Maiden
07-23-2013, 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Khilafiyah (difference of opinion) is normal among Muslims. And if someone learn Islam through "methodology of understanding" he must be know the background of these differences and how he should behave toward it.

Unfortunately, not every Muslim have enough understanding on khilafiyah. And the worse is, they are easy to be attacked by 'disease' that called "Hizbiyah" or "extreme spirit of the corp". It make them establish or join in an exclusive group which they regard their group as the only right Muslim group while the other are wrong.

My advice is, do not easily influenced by "the hizbiyun" who try to convince you that their group is the only right Muslim group and if you do not follow them you will go to hell.

Which group that on the right path?.

Not every Muslim understand that what Rasulullah (saw) meant with "the saved firqah" is based on characteristic of Muslim, not based on group like tandzim, jamaah, or hizb.

So, do not thinking "I should join in this group". Just try to become a better Muslim.

:)
How about if I don't want to join any group at all? So far I haven't liked any.
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chuckla
07-23-2013, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Honestly, this is the first time I have ever read or heard of an 'atheist Christian'. I have spoken with a Reform Rabbi and she confirmed the possibility of an atheist Jew, but an atheist Christian blows my mind as an oxymoron. My understanding of what defines a Christian is one who believes in Jesus as the Son of God and simultaneously as one Person of the Godhead.

From what I have seen, non-Muslims come here for various reasons that are known only to them. Some may want to learn about Islam for their own personal edification or even to learn so they better can communicate with Muslims for whatever reason they intend. Some may even come to 'moderate' or 'liberalize' Muslims so they are not strict adherents to the Qur'an and the sunnah. Some may sense some commonality with Muslims and would like to see more interfaith dialog for the sake of mutual respect and understanding. Some may come to evangelize Muslims to become Christians or to show the 'the error of their ways' in beliving in God as the Creator of all that exists.
In regards to your last phrase:" 'the error of their ways' in believing in God as the Creator of all that exists." Any Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Jew, or Atheist who would try to do that, is a FOOL, and disagrees with you, me, Thomas Jefferson, and ANY true believer! Peace, chuck
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ardianto
07-23-2013, 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
How about if I don't want to join any group at all? So far I haven't liked any.
Did I say you should join in a group?
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Ahmad H
07-23-2013, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
There's a problem with this for Muslims themselves fight over which this right path is. In India there are all these divisions each claiming that their way is the right way. And all of them say they are Muslims and follow Islam. Yet each group has different way of doing things. You just have to go to a matrimonial site and see the various categories of Muslims there are.

So if someone cares to enlighten me a bit, which of all these groups is the only right path?
If I may jump in here, there is a Hadith which says that Islam would have 73 sects, where 72 would be in Hell and one would be in Paradise. Do du'a sincerely for yourself to find that right group. Not everyone is Heaven-bound, unfortunately.

It is easy to see why this is the case, look at all the scholars who pronounce others as Kafir. It is disgraceful that this occupies them most of the time. Verdicts of death and punishment are what they do best. There are many branches in Islam today, but only one will suffice. There is a Hadith which says that there is always righteous Muslims in every age who are rightly guided, they are a class of their own who no one else can harm until the command of Allah comes on the Day of Judgment. So such people exist. This is a definite fact.

You should look for the one major and most important sign if you are to think of joining a group which you find to be rightly guided in Islam, and that is one which has an Imam under which the people are unified. If you do not find a group of Muslims with an Imam, then you should stay away from all of those groups. In Sunan Abu Dawud the Holy Prophet (saw) has said that Allah sends a Reformer in every century. This does not mean only one. In every age Islam needs to be redefined properly in order to be properly followed. How can you follow the religion well when there is no Imam who is guiding you to Him who is well connected with Allah?

Many righteous Imams in the past came and went, but there are Imams even now as well. Do not think that you should just follow Islam based on how you define it. Anyone who tells you to become a better Muslim without telling you how is misleading you. Seek and do your best to find that one Imam under which Muslims are unified and who you find that Allah has guided you to. Allah does this in many ways, the one best way to know is by dreams. Ask Allah earnestly for a sign as to who to be guided to. Any other method besides this is false. Every righteous scholar and Imam who passed away spoke of finding a Shaykh who can guide you to Allah. If you are yourself not an Imam, you cannot guide yourself then because your connection with Allah is not fostered properly yet.

This is the method I advise. Pray and seek the group with an Imam. Stay away from all groups that do not have an Imam. This is the advice the Holy Prophet (saw) gave us Muslims, so follow it. Anything besides that is false. There is always an Imam. Allah provides for His creation for both this life and the Hereafter. So have faith and seek Him as He deserves to be sought.
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MustafaMc
07-24-2013, 01:10 AM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
Correct. I don't think it is necessary to pray 5 times a day, wear hijab, fast in Ramadan or even go to Mecca for Hajj.
And yet you consider yourself a Muslim. What does believing that Muhammad (saaws) was the last Messenger of Allah mean to you? Also, what does, "Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." Qur'an 3:31 mean to you?
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Muslim Woman
07-24-2013, 04:32 AM
:sl:

Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
Correct. I don't think it is necessary to pray 5 times a day, wear hijab, fast in Ramadan or even go to Mecca for Hajj.

if any Muslim openly says s/he does not believe in commands of Allah , then s/he won't be considered as Muslim any longer . U should offer ur sincere repentance to Allah . May Allah increases u and us in faith , Ameen.
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Jedi_Mindset
07-24-2013, 07:50 AM
You are on the very verge of being an apostate :(

Please dont become like that, if you have serious troubles we want to help you.
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Icy Maiden
07-24-2013, 08:41 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
And yet you consider yourself a Muslim. What does believing that Muhammad (saaws) was the last Messenger of Allah mean to you? Also, what does, "Say, (O Muhammad, to mankind): If ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, Merciful." Qur'an 3:31 mean to you?
By people's definition I am not Muslim.

Following the Prophet sws to me means to follow his example.
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Icy Maiden
07-24-2013, 08:43 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
if any Muslim openly says s/he does not believe in commands of Allah , then s/he won't be considered as Muslim any longer .
Who won't consider me a Muslim any longer? You?
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sister herb
07-24-2013, 09:13 AM
Salam alaykum

Dear sister Icy; I have seen that your stance here is very rebel. As you described yourself as muslim (I don't think it is necessary to pray 5 times a day, wear hijab, fast in Ramadan or even go to Mecca for Hajj), it is not only sister Muslim Woman who would wonder are you muslim at all - Allah of course knows the best but if you refuse to follow commands of Allah... what you think by yourself that you are?
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Hamza Asadullah
07-24-2013, 10:01 AM
Originally Posted by Icy Maiden
By people's definition I am not Muslim.

Following the Prophet sws to me means to follow his example.
Sister you constantly complain about the actions of other people yet i think you must look at your own actions first and foremost because you are only doing yourself injustice by behaving in such a manner. Whatever issues you have then this is not the way to behave. I think you should stop getting on a defensive, take a step back and think before to say anything as you are clearly very emotional. If there are issues then you will find us as Muslims will go out of our way to help you as much as we possibly can but please dont show such a bad rebellious attitude as it will only do you harm.
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Icy Maiden
07-24-2013, 11:37 AM
I would like the administrators of this forum to change my religion from Islam to Other. Thanks.
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