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Berries'forest
05-06-2013, 08:24 PM
In a century where things are so interwind together that it becomes difficult to distinguish between right and wrong. A battle at it's core when everyone is telling you something but your conscience is desperately crying to you that their wrong. It became more bizzare when a virtue that has become so marginalised is now shrugged off as 'over-rated', an arguement that fails in it's essence because of the shocking reality of it's irony. On the contrary there is nothing becoming contagiously widespread as the propagation of sexual deviance and running after lust. Yet it isn't that much of a bottomless pit when societies that have previously extinguished every last trace of morality are struck and stuck by the harsh reality they've inflicted upon themselves grasping at straws and finally ridicoulisly urging people to once again embrace the lost and forgotten virtue of gaurding ones' chastity by putting up billboards saying: "Virgin teach your kids it's not a *dirty* word".

All in all what irritates me the most and quite frankly disturbs me is when people try to trade brands and let go of their own principles just too appear less 'radicalised' for their audience. I was actually vexed when I understood that some muslims often feel ashamed of being virgin even amongst other muslims as if it were something to hide or else your just not normal. And what's even stranger is the false I repeat false and completely nonsensical notion proposing that it is virginity that is over-rated and not promiscouity. For anything nothing is more multicelebrated in today's unconventional society than the sleeping around phenomena and surprisingly no strings attached policies as well. Really what else must we compromise in the sake of fitting in melting away in the cause of integration with a very unaccepting and highly sacrificing society?.

The truth of matters is it doesn't concern me the least bit what anyone does in their private time. What I feel obliged and compelled to is making it clear that no muslim or anyone really who chooses to perserve themselves for the *sake of their Lord* and obeying His commandments a person as such must never accept people accusing him or her of being jealous or just untolerating. Unfortunately folks that 'Get over it , it's life no one is perfect' attitude doesn't justify your thesis you can personally go around doing what ever you want but don't ever think that using nonsensical logical falacies will in any way make it even like butter and bread. Because the fine line and case shutter is that people whom perserve themselves they do it for God and in obedience to Him and not in wishful thinking of a future spouse.

Why do people get all sensitive when the issue of being virgin is raised. Is it not a commandment of Allah?. Or do some people think that they are above the law and can bend the rules to however it should please them?. Never feel ashamed of following the orders of God even if people told you otherwise. Truly it is promisciouity that is over rated and not virginity. For the latter is a virtue while the former is the vice.
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Ahmad H
05-06-2013, 10:48 PM
Right on sister. I completely agree with you.
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Futuwwa
05-06-2013, 11:11 PM
No, virginity is not a virtue. Chastity is. Virginity is an incidental consequence of chastity.
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~Zaria~
05-07-2013, 05:36 AM
:salam:

Originally Posted by Futuwwa
No, virginity is not a virtue. Chastity is. Virginity is an incidental consequence of chastity.
SubhanAllah, I couldnt have said this better.


Sister, there has clearly been a mis-understanding.

As had been mentioned, islam enjoins on us purity, chastity and staying away from all forms of lewdness.
And indeed, one of the most important characteristics that one should seek when looking for a spouse, is his/ her relationship with Allah and His messenger (sallalahu alaihi wasalam), his/ her level of taqwa, his/ her desire to distance themselves from this dunya and live for the pleasure of Allah.

It stands to reason, that unless a person has a very bad reputation in the community and has displayed his lewdness in the public eye, then there is no way that we can know of a persons sins of the past.
In the vast majority of cases, these types of sins occur away from the knowledge of family and friends, behind closed doors.
And as already discussed, it is not for us to ask a person to divulge those sins which Allah (subhanawatáala) Himself has concealed.

Which would mean that in many cases, one would have to consider a persons piety at this point in time.

If you see a brother who is going to the masjid 5 times a day, who is following the sunnah of the prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasalam) in manners and appearance, who is attending to the poor, making attempts to increase his islamic knowledge and performing many other good actions - and who then approaches you for marriage, would you not be satisfied with his efforts at this point in time?

Yet this same individual may have slipped up in the past and committed sins that you may/ may not know about.
Will you hold this over his head for the rest of his life.....or will you be able to see past his previous ways and look forward towards the future? (as mentioned, we all have different thresholds of what we feel comfortable in letting go).

When mentioning that 'virginity is over-rated' - this is to refer to the culture of some societies, that shun those who may be non-virgin for a variety of reasons:
e.g. a brother/ sister may be widowed/ divorced/ a victim of rape/ incest or may have made some mistake in the past and repented.

There are so many families who will refuse their child from marrying a person who is divorced/ widowed - because they desire that their child be married to some-one of a similiar (virgin) status. This individual may turn down many potentially good spouses, and may now be much older - and still waiting to find this 'perfect' person.

The prophet (sallahu alaihi wasalam)'s first marriage was to a widow, Khatidja (ra).
(so, how do we place so much emphasis on the status of virginity, when the best of mankind (sallalahu alaihi wasalam) could see past this.
Again, virginity in itself is not a virtue. Chastity is.)

Then there are stories of how a woman may be falsely accused and condemned if she does not pass the 'virginity test' on her first night of marriage.
Little do they know that a womans hymen can break from many other causes - e.g. during her monthly cycle, exercise, etc.

Not to forget the stories of women who look for devious surgical means of trying to repair the hymen - and give a false impression of chastity.

These things would not occur if we could just:
1. TRUST IN ALLAH:
Make duaa that Allah sends someone into your life, who is righteous and God-fearing, and who will be the best for YOUR life.
And when a potential suitor does come along - realise that you will NOT know of all his past sins (and neither is it up for your judgement).....so turn to Allah and read istikhaarah, asking for His guidance.

2. Think the best of our brothers and sisters.
How often is it that we may hear bad rumours about a person, and we are more willing to believe them and judge them.....rather than trying to make any excuse possible to think good of them.

3. Realise that people are human, and are bound to make mistakes.
A lesson to be learnt from the sahaba, is that they were people whose lives in the days of jahilliyah/ ignorance were far removed from purity. They committed crimes that today, are difficult to imagine.
YET, Allah (subhanawataála) chose these very people to be so close to the prophet (sallahu alaihi wasalam) and examples for the rest of the ummah to learn from.
And apart from the ambiyaa, they were the only people to be given the glad tidings of paradise during their lives.
Our own ticket to Jannah has not even been secured, yet we so quick to judge others......those whom, Allah may have long forgiven.

Sister, your post gives the impression that we are condoning promiscuity, and rebuking chastity.
Which is truly not the case.

I hope that this provides more clarity in shaa Allah.


:wasalam:
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Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 07:19 AM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
No, virginity is not a virtue. Chastity is. Virginity is an incidental consequence of chastity.
How is virginity not a virtue? Is honesty not a virtue too? Speaking falsehood but remaing truthful in your heart is more a virtue according to you is it not?. And no it's not just incidental it is instrumental and an inherent part not consequence of chastity. They are both two sides of the same token, you're really contradicting yourself in fact I don't even know if that statement has any sense to it at all. Really the mere difference between chastity and virginity is it's their expression forms. And using your logic we can make up excuses for anything. Drunkness is not the vice it is the being un sober. Virginity and chastity go in hand with hand. Also please do not deviate the topic if you have an Islamic background in the substance of your views provide the citations and verses otherwise it's just your personal opinion. Contradictory as well.
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Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 07:57 AM
Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
When mentioning that 'virginity is over-rated' - this is to refer to the culture of some societies, that shun those who may be non-virgin for a variety of reasons:
e.g. a brother/ sister may be widowed/ divorced/ a victim of rape/ incest or may have made some mistake in the past and repented.
Those cases are crimes they can not be used as an argument and I don't really think you've even read my post in first place. The chief objective of it was to prove the whole and honestly strange idea of virginity being over rated as complete non sense. Firstly there is nothing more over rated and encouraged through out the pop culture and media than sexual lewdness with it various forms. No one is ever pressured into being a virgin actually completely the opposite how else do you view the fact that before one reaches the age 18 in such a culture one must have their innocence taken and yet if they refused they are looked down upon as not experienced or rigid. I clearly outline that there are boundaries and one must not neglect them as some of you seem to be doing.

Honestly though; no one forces you to do anything in this world. It is all by your choice and your willingness to do it no power on this planet can ever make you commit something that you don't wish to do. This victim mentality you are excercising here doesn't work. It's nice on paper and words but reality is drastically different completely the opposite to what you're describing. It is usually the virgins being cheated on and having to constantly look over their shoulder just rest assured that their spouse is not two timing and they are sincerely faithful. It is the virgins who are haunted by insecurities of whether their spouse compares him/her to one of their previous intimate relationships. It is the vrigin spouse wondering if their is a secret untold of offspring the spouse has begotten. You can not possibly deny that most of the time it is the virgin who bears the brunt and burden of worries and insecurities and yet here you are assigning yourself a lawyer of defense before even studying through the case and analyzing the issue. If you're that sensitive about it fine. But it's makes a big difference with the words you choose saying that virginity is overrated is another way of blatantly declaring that it has no place or value in Islam when it's truly not the case. You are degrading it's value so that anyone reading those words would think that it's fine and good to lose your virginity as long as you are pure in the heart. Actions speak louder than words and actions decipher what's truly inside of you; your chastity ceases to exist if you won't act upon it. And really this is a double standard assessment on your behalf. If someone has sinned and repented I have no right to scorn them or demean them for what they've done in the past but it's not the same at all when someone wants to impose their lifestyle on me and give the get over it attitude ; it's all in your head or you're probably just jealous this is one of the lamest cop-outs I've heard of in my life and no sorry but it wont work.


Keeping yourself a virgin is a commandment from Allah swt and being chaste is also a commandment from Allah. It's in the scripture and it can't be erased to please the senseblities of those who wish to do other wise. What should we wait for next? The same same thing that's being done for Hijab is being done for keeping yourself preserved or what?. Are we gonna hear muslims bashfully and nervously shuddering excuses like "Oh it's just a tradition those whom wish to follow it can and others who don't are okay; after all faith is in the heart and being chaste is more important than being virgin". Faith is a word of action, your intentions may weigh nothing if you had the ability to do something and you didn't.



Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
There are so many families who will refuse their child from marrying a person who is divorced/ widowed - because they desire that their child be married to some-one of a similiar (non-virgin) status. This individual may turn down many potentially good spouses, and may now be much older - and still waiting to find this 'perfect' person.
Too bad that just goes to prove my case.

Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
Then there are stories of how a woman may be falsely accused and condemned if she does not pass the 'virginity test' on her first night of marriage.
Little do they know that a womans hymen can break from many other causes - e.g. during her monthly cycle, exercise, etc.
This is not relevant. I never made these parables and honestly I don't see how it relates to the OP. Distinguishing between something wrong being done but never the less it is still condemned is not the same as doing something wrong and then officially making it 'normal' or a part the inevitable. You seem to look at it as if someone who's done has been diagnosed with a terminal illness pleading for their case I wonder why it bothers you so much. Since most of the points you've raised have more or less absolutely nothing to with my OP.

Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
Sister, your post gives the impression that we are condoning promiscuity, and rebuking chastity.
Which is truly not the case.
Does it not sound like that to you?. Please why make it so personal I never directed it straightly at you. I think from the first reply it does seem to me that virginity seems no more a requiremnt for marriage conditions. It's all good because in the end we don't steal because it's out of character to do that but no one ever makes a plead for thiefs or robbery crimes because it's just the culture. One point that should be underlined; one doesn't keep their virginity for their spouse they keep to obey their Lord. Fornictation is a grave sin in Islam, if one refrains from it they God willing will be granted mercy and rewarded if one indulges it they will be punished. I didn't make this up. The green card may work here in this world but not when we die and return to our Lord. It's not my concern if one intends to fornicate the whole of their lives but to illicitly try to portray it as lawful and something that we humans cannot keep ourselves from then I most certainly will object to that. God knows of the human capability more than anyone, He is the creator had He known that it is something far beyond one's abilities He wouldn't have ordained it. The disfavor and despising attitude towards virgins should stop. You say they are self-righteous yet you aspire to prove that they and untruly chaste inside and that they are two faced hypocrites and it's awful do you think the message is not understood?. It's comes across very clear.



:wa:
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Iceee
05-07-2013, 11:44 AM
Salam

Virginity is a chastity but maintaining it during single before marriage is a virtue.
A chaste Muslim is pious Muslim who always try hard to obey all of Allah's command and prohibition

Originally Posted by Berries'forest
Virginity and chastity go in hand with hand.
Care to explain how? Because virginity could be lost during the teen years but chastity can come back in your life at any time.



Originally Posted by Berries'forest
Honestly though; no one forces you to do anything in this world. It is all by your choice and your willingness to do it no power on this planet can ever make you commit something that you don't wish to do.
You do know that virginity can be taken by rape? That is not a woman (or a mans) choice. What do you have to say about that?


Originally Posted by Berries'forest
It is usually the virgins being cheated on and having to constantly look over their shoulder just rest assured that their spouse is not two timing and they are sincerely faithful. It is the virgins who are haunted by insecurities of whether their spouse compares him/her to one of their previous intimate relationships. It is the vrigin spouse wondering if their is a secret untold of offspring the spouse has begotten. You can not possibly deny that most of the time it is the virgin who bears the brunt and burden of worries and insecurities and yet here you are assigning yourself a lawyer of defense before even studying through the case and analyzing the issue.
How do you know this is true when a virgin marries a non-virgin. Maybe that "virgin" married the wrong person who he/she doubt even before the marriage.


Originally Posted by Berries'forest
Keeping yourself a virgin is a commandment from Allah swt and being chaste is also a commandment from Allah.
I agree that both are said in the Quran (Allah Subhanahuwatallah's words) but did you forget about repenting? That is also in the Quran, Hadith, etc.
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*charisma*
05-07-2013, 01:19 PM
Assalamu Alaikum

I don't think anyone's disagreeing that virginity and chasteness are part of the deen, but they both have to go together (without including external forces such as rape for example). A man/woman should be both chaste and remain virgins until marriage. Allah says in the Quran to not even get near zina (no lustful glances, no touching, etc), let alone commit the acts of zina (intercourse) itself. I don't think sis Zaria was disagreeing with your post, but moreso elaborating and making it clear the differences between chastity and virginity. You also have to remember that there may be people who committed zina without really knowing it's severity, and may be looking for salvation. You can't make them feel hopeless to receive Allah's mercy and make them feel like they are worthless especially when they have learned the error of their ways.

Back to your original post, I personally have not met any muslim who regretted being a virgin or who wanted to lose their virginity before marriage. The ones that have lost their virginity have either fallen or are just not religious.

However, our environment (being around nonMuslims, bad friends, and the media) and old-school parents who don't talk about sex with their children, does affect someone's sexual tendencies to an extent. A girl watching a show or seeing how nonMuslim guys don't want to be around virgin girls may make her think generally of the male population and assume that no Muslim guy would really want a virgin, when it's actually the complete opposite, or she may think it's unfair that the muslim guys around her lose their virginity before marriage and that she may end up marrying one of them.

I could blame the media and all of that, but really, muslims should be reminders to each other with this type of stuff. Teenagers and young adults aren't so open with their parents, so some of the first people they turn to are their best friends. If your friend was seen texting a guy and she was telling you all about him, instead of asking her for details, you should tell her straight up to not talk to this guy. Go to islamic lectures together instead of mindlessly shopping at the mall where there's so much fitnah around you. Talk to some religious young married couples who can give you a real insight on what marriage is and how important it is to remain chaste, etc. There's so much we can do to help each other, but we like to point fingers at the person or at the media, when that person doesn't have anyone to simply remind them or guide them.

As simply as it is, it's not our business either way as long as they're not doing anything in front of us. Allah will judge them in the end. Their private matters are private for a reason. Why they may take virginity or chastity so lightly is really about how they are raised and who's around them. Instead of complaining about these matters, we can just educate and advise. If we see something wrong right in front of us, then speak up just as the prophet peace be upon him told us to do. A relationship doesn't begin sex. A muslim girl or guy doesn't just throw themselves at someone for sex. It always begins with a little something, and that's what we should be mindful about with the people around us. This should also go without saying that rape victims, widows, and divorcees have been tested by Allah and have not done anything wrong with regards to chastity and virginity and therefore are not accounted for in any part of my reply.



fi aman allah
w'salaam
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Ahmad H
05-07-2013, 01:40 PM
Originally Posted by Iceee
Virginity is a chastity but maintaining it during single before marriage is a virtue.
A chaste Muslim is pious Muslim who always try hard to obey all of Allah's command and prohibition
That is very true. This opened up my mind like a key opens a locked door just now. I feel like I have had some potential understanding locked away from me. And that was definitely a Shaytan doing that.

I think the best example is to look at Hazrat Bibi Maryam (ra). The Christians look at her as the 'Virgin Mary'. Yet, she was not meant to be a virgin her whole life. Allah did not describe her as being pure in the Qur'an because of this trait, He described her as pure because she was chaste. She eventually got married. I think she had children too. But the point is that she was a chaste woman, who strictly guarded her private parts and never strayed from Allah's way.

She is used as an example for Muslims to look up to. And the way she lived is like how we should live. Devoted to the places of worship at a very young age, praying often, guarding our chastity, reliance on Allah, etc.

66:12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).

She became a pure example for the Muslims along with the wife of Pharaoh who turned away from what her husband did. So Hazrat Bibi Maryam (ra) is a very fine example for us Muslims! Our point in life is to strive to be like how she was.
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Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by Iceee
Care to explain how?
Actually, why should I bother?. It seems you purposefully ommited the whole post and selected half a sentence to raise a question which has been previously answered.

Originally Posted by Iceee
Because virginity could be lost during the teen years but chastity can come back in your life at any time.
Read that to yourself again see if it even sounds right. There is apparently a paradox around the term chaste as far as I know and last time I checked-which was pretty recent- chastity solely means :The state or practice of refraining from sexual intercourse. Consequently it's synonyms are virtue and purity. If anyone wants to refute this I suggest the take their case to educational instituitions responsible of publishing dictionaries. You *can't* literally become chaste again after intentionally losing your virginity maybe this is possible metaphorically yes or even through modern medical operations but onces that state is gone it's gone forever and that is why it's precious.

Originally Posted by Iceee
You do know that virginity can be taken by rape? That is not a woman (or a mans) choice. What do you have to say about that?
Pardon my ignorance how could I have let that one slip away from me?. I have nothing to say at all. Especially since I never brought this sepcif issue up in first place. Quit selecting words out of context and requesting explanations when it's clear that you want to deviate this topic out of it's mainstream. First of all, Where has the word rape ever occured in the OP?. I was refuting the claim stating that 'virginity is over rated'. I made it more than clear that I honestly am not addressing these exceptional cases. The theme of this thread is regarding these relationships that transpire out of wedlock. I hope that simplified it for you.


Originally Posted by Iceee
How do you know this is true when a virgin marries a non-virgin. Maybe that "virgin" married the wrong person who he/she doubt even before the marriage.
Perhaps I haven't told you -please keep it a secret my parents will murder me if they find out- ....well I also happen to be another parody of houdini the magician so it's not that far fetched I would know. Seriously though, where do you live?. Either you don't get out much or you're totally comsumed by your views. I don't need to prove it daily events speak for themselves.


Originally Posted by Iceee
I agree that both are said in the Quran (Allah Subhanahuwatallah's words) but did you forget about repenting? That is also in the Quran, Hadith, etc.
Reading things twice or thrice never hurt do they?.
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Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by *charisma*
I don't think anyone's disagreeing that virginity and chasteness are part of the deen, but they both have to go together (without including external forces such as rape for example). A man/woman should be both chaste and remain virgins until marriage. Allah says in the Quran to not even get near zina (no lustful glances, no touching, etc), let alone commit the acts of zina (intercourse) itself. I don't think sis Zaria was disagreeing with your post, but moreso elaborating and making it clear the differences between chastity and virginity. You also have to remember that there may be people who committed zina without really knowing it's severity, and may be looking for salvation. You can't make them feel hopeless to receive Allah's mercy and make them feel like they are worthless especially when they have learned the error of their ways.
I haven't been living. The fact is there is no difference between virginity and chastity, perhaps you guys mean modesty?. I'm not sure but even that is up to dispute. I think you guys are way too sensitive. I am well aware of the punishment Allah swt has subscribed to those whom making people despair of His mercy. I never raised that point no where have I even slightly insinuated anything on that matter. I was refuting or maybe answering; the notion of claiming that virginity is over rated . I'm sorry but is this just not another way of apologetic and trying to just eradicate the complete doctrine, to me that's how it is and I felt I should voice my opinion.


Originally Posted by *charisma*
A girl watching a show or seeing how nonMuslim guys don't want to be around virgin girls may make her think generally of the male population and assume that no Muslim guy would really want a virgin, when it's actually the complete opposite, or she may think it's unfair that the muslim guys around her lose their virginity before marriage and that she may end up marrying one of them
Goes to prove my case without uncertainty.
Originally Posted by *charisma*
As simply as it is, it's not our business either way as long as they're not doing anything in front of us. Allah will judge them in the end. Their private matters are private for a reason. Why they may take virginity or chastity so lightly is really about how they are raised and who's around them. Instead of complaining about these matters, we can just educate and advise. If we see something wrong right in front of us, then speak up just as the prophet peace be upon him told us to do. A relationship doesn't begin sex. A muslim girl or guy doesn't just throw themselves at someone for sex. It always begins with a little something, and that's what we should be mindful about with the people around us.
This is also not relevant. I already said it's non of my business what anyone is doing in private.

I will say this once more; why are you guys purposefully trying to deviate the thread from it's original subject. The concept of virginity is not that foreign to anyone living anywhere in this world, even those whom live in western counteries. The west does not hold a monoply on sexual lewdness even though they have paid the most effort in spreading it on a wider level. People of Abrahimic faith especially shouldn't be too reluctant about promoting a healthy environmenting and trying their best not to make this phenomenon a status qou.
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Signor
05-07-2013, 03:05 PM
To OP

May I know To what use this is being brought topic here?

Why it matters when something is subjective?

Islam has already adopted a very clear path in these matters

Lastly,the growing number of threads relating to sexuality in any form makes me sick,Is this for what We are on Islamic Board???
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Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by Signor
To OP
May I know To what use this is being brought topic here?
Why it matters when something is subjective?
Islam has already adopted a very clear path in these matters
Lastly,the growing number of threads relating to sexuality in any form makes me sick,Is this for what We are on Islamic Board???

Good question, atcually this op was supposed to be a post on brother Ahmad H thread about marriage. The notion of making unlawful things slightly lawful or overlooked under certain conditions was being held there. I can't post in his thread because I am a relatively new memeber and haven't joined the sister's sections yet which is a requirement for being allowed to particpate in Advice and Support section. you are wrong it's not subjective it's been clearly defined through the various citations and passages in the Quran, anyway. You don't have to view these threads usually they are identified by their titles so they're not misleading for anyone who's expected otherwise.

Also, it is crucial in a this case because these opinions and points of view do have their influence on people who frequently visit this forum. Anyone can use them as an excuse if they've read them in an IslamicBoard.
Edit: one question you get disgusted by threads being made about virginity?. Has it gone really that bad?. So even promoting chastity should be censored now?. I know that your post was an ad hominen by the way clever but very old method I just didn't see it for what it is until now.
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~Zaria~
05-07-2013, 05:52 PM
:salam:

Sister, there are members here who are simply airing their points of view.

Theres absolutely no need to be aggressive or sarcastic in your manner of speech to others, esp since everyone is entitled to how they may feel.
Nobody here has tried to re-define the principles laid out in Islam, so please calm down a little.

I could be wrong but it seems likely from your posts that you are unmarried/ have never been married before, and perhaps this could be influencing your personal stance on this issue.
As I had mentioned on the previous thread, as one gets older and Allah tests a person by means of divorce, death of a spouse and other forms of trials - we start to see the world through different, and more mature eyes.


I should first clarify that I, and it appears others on this thread do NOT view 'virginity' and 'chastity' as one and the same.

Virginity is a state of not ever having initimate relations.
Chastity is the state or practice of refraining from extramarital, or especially from all, sexual intercourse (Oxford Dictionary).
In other words, a non-virgin may be able to remain 'chaste' in the sense that they do not engage in any extra-marital relations.

I would hate to think that you are referring to all the brothers and sisters on the forum who may be divorced/ widowed as being 'unchaste'.


The second point is, that you seem to have taken a few statements made on this thread and the previous one, and have completely blown our intentions out the water.

Please refrain from this.

The following comments (as well as many others) were not implied or intended in my posts, and are simply untrue:

Originally Posted by Berries'forest
But it's makes a big difference with the words you choose saying that virginity is overrated is another way of blatantly declaring that it has no place or value in Islam when it's truly not the case. You are degrading it's value so that anyone reading those words would think that it's fine and good to lose your virginity as long as you are pure in the heart.

Originally Posted by Berries'forest
Keeping yourself a virgin is a commandment from Allah swt and being chaste is also a commandment from Allah. It's in the scripture and it can't be erased to please the senseblities of those who wish to do other wise.

What should we wait for next? The same same thing that's being done for Hijab is being done for keeping yourself preserved or what?. Are we gonna hear muslims bashfully and nervously shuddering excuses like "Oh it's just a tradition those whom wish to follow it can and others who don't are okay; after all faith is in the heart and being chaste is more important than being virgin". Faith is a word of action, your intentions may weigh nothing if you had the ability to do something and you didn't.
Originally Posted by Berries'forest
The disfavor and despising attitude towards virgins should stop.
Originally Posted by Berries'forest
The notion of making unlawful things slightly lawful or overlooked under certain conditions was being held there.

Originally Posted by Berries'forest
I think from the first reply it does seem to me that virginity seems no more a requiremnt for marriage conditions.

Originally Posted by Berries'forest
Too bad that just goes to prove my case.
^ Unfortunately, the only one who is displaying a 'self-righteous' attitude at the moment is yourself, by implying that there is nothing wrong in turning down a potential suitor, because by your notion they are 'unchaste', even if they had lost their virginity in a previous marriage and are now divorced or widowed.


Fortunately most, if not all of our respected scholars do not share the same type of sentiments.
I had posted this on another thread, but I think it is fitting to place it here as well:


Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
Divorce
Mufti Ismail Menk



None of us are exempt from going through divorce or experiencing it in the lives of the best of our children or family members.

Hence it is very important that we watch very carefully what we say about those who are divorced and how we treat them, speak to them or look at them.

In many instances, two individually brilliant people divorce, not because one is bad but because together, they were unable to survive. This is proven by the fact that in many cases both are then very happily married to others.

Remember, if your mouth or actions become hurtful to those divorced, there may come a time when you will be dumbfounded by repetition of the same if not worse in your own home!

Never be from those who frown upon, look down upon, criticize or gossip about those divorced, making them feel unworthy.

The Messenger pbuh chose to marry a divorced woman and repeated this type of choice. Had they been “bad” simply because they were divorced, he would have been the furthest away from them.

Shame upon those parents who do not allow their children to consider a divorced spouse. They need to know that many people say that marriages to those previously divorced are more likely to be everlasting.


May the Almighty guide us all and grant us ALL spouses who will be the coolness of our eyes. Aameen

This status was inspired by the cry of a sister. In no way are we belittling those never married. We are simply raising a VERY VERY common and REAL problem in almost every society.


-Mufti Ismail Menk

Also, as mentioned the sahaba (ra) engaged in even worse atrocities preceding Islam, and they are now from amongst those who are most beloved to Allah.
SubhanAllah, if you had been around during this era, you may have bitten their heads off by now!
Yet, Allah (subhanawataála) has purified them of their past actions and raised their status' to such high levels.


:wasalam:
Reply

~Zaria~
05-07-2013, 05:58 PM
The following article may also be a worthy read, in shaa Allah:

She’s Not Damaged Goods – We Have Damaged Standards


Male-bashing articles are notoriously en vogue, admittedly for valid reasons. From the outset, let me clarify this won't be one of them. The difficulties faced in joining a man to a woman with previous (or more) relationship experience isn't just a “Muslim male” problem, but a social phenomenon with dimensions that need to be picked apart carefully and understood so that practical solutions can be proposed on a case-by-case basis.
A more intellectually honest approach that doesn't hop on the bandwagon of populist chest-thumping would force us to realize that firstly, this isn't a male problem exclusively – it is often the case when Muslim men bring home the idea of marrying a woman with previous relationship experience, it's mom and her gaggle of auntie ji's who shut down the idea for cultural reasons. The same women who remained in dysfunctional marriages because society would call them out (as well as lack of support options post-divorce) are now among those causing the biggest ruckus, so very clearly this is beyond being just a male / female phenomenon, but a cultural phenomenon with dimensions coming from both scriptural interpretation as well as local customs which even the non-Muslims of those areas share (e.g. India).
Putting aside the cultural side of the discussion, there's also the difficulty of Muslim male emotional insecurity. However, this isn't just a “Muslim” male problem. It's a male problem period for both Muslims AND non-Muslims. Do a Google search on emotional insecurity and you'll find scores of sexually active non-Muslim men struggling with the idea that their partner has more relationship experience than they do. It's not a “Muslim” problem, it's a human psychology problem that requires a mentor-like approach which encourages personal growth, not yet another polarizing male-bashing article.
I've read some noble attempts at getting brothers to marry our sisters with previous relationships with anecdotes like, “The man married the woman pretending he couldn't see how disfigured she was due to his nobility of character,” which is great until you realize you've just explicitly said these women truly ARE damaged goods and it's our duty to marry them for the good of society. Which sister wants her marriage to be some well-intentioned brother's community service pity project? I may be wrong, but I think ideally, our sisters want a husband who loves them for who they are, respects their humanity, and doesn't consider them as some type of cultural, physical, or emotional liability which they take on “for the good of the team”.
My belief is we have to re-orient our cultural misgivings to the standard used by the Prophet (SAW) and the Companions and remove the cultural stigmas surrounding previously married sisters, but as with all types of ignorance, this is a type of daw'ah and daw'ah has to be done with wisdom, not anger, sarcasm, and pseudo-intellectual arrogance. Likewise, we have to invite our brothers to overcome their emotional insecurities with mercy and practical mentoring strategies based on solutions provided in our scriptural literature as well as what is beneficial in secular sources. The intent of this article is to touch on the former (the cultural side) while spending more time on the latter (the emotional side).
Many years ago I considered marrying a divorced practicing Muslim sister and found within myself unexpected insecurities. By the blessings of Allāh, I was able to overcome them quickly and move on to seriously considering the sister for marriage. What I offer is my own thought process in overcoming issues such as these, and I would recommend using this as a complementary resource to whatever you find beneficial from Muslim or secular relationship counselors / experts.

1. Follow The Standard of the Messenger (SAW)


When any issue comes before me, the overarching principle that defines the direction I want to move is the attempt to find what it is that will be pleasing to Allāh (SWT), and furthermore, what standards did He (SWT) convey to us either in the Qur'an directly or in the life of the Messenger (SAW)?
Among the evidences cited towards marrying only previously unmarried women is the question of the Prophet (SAW) to one Companion about why he did not marry a virgin woman, and the oft-quoted hadeeth regarding those who are martyred receiving 72 hoor al-'ayn as reward.

What I've seen missing in that discussion is the life choices of the Prophet (SAW), and an understanding of those ahadeeth in light of his life since he is the paragon of Islamic practice – as Aisha (ra) mentioned, he was the walking Qur'an. His first wife, Khadijah bint Khuwalid, was a widow with children from a previous marriage, older than him (some narrations say 40, others say 28), a wealthy career woman, and the initiator of the marriage proposal.

This is extraordinary when you consider that The Prophet (SAW) at the time was 25, part of the most prestigious clan (Banu Hashim), a very handsome man, and well-respected by the community at large (he was known as al-āmīn, the truthful). He could have married any woman, and had there been any disgrace in marrying Khadijah, his uncle would have advised against it. To my knowledge it was never reported that people looked down on the Prophet (SAW) or made fun of him after Prophethood for this. If we look at his life in Madīnah, except for Aisha all his wives had been previously married and had exited their marriages either due to their spouse's passing or divorce. You may note that he also recommended marrying women who were fertile, yet he also married a woman who was likely not so (his second wife Sauda).

My takeaway from this is that while there may be some benefits in finding a partner without prior relationship experience, it's most certainly not the only factor to look at, and the weight it's sometimes given is disproportionate relative to more important variables (eg. Islamic practice, taqwa, character and manners, how attractive the person is, chemistry, chastity, life ambitions, child-rearing philosophy, worldliness, etc). I think there's a need for us to re-calibrate our standards and realize that if Allāh (SWT) doesn't evaluate people by these standards, perhaps we ought to re-align ourselves accordingly.
If there was nothing wrong for the Prophet (SAW) in taking previously married wives, I don't see how it should be a problem for the rest of us. He's our example to follow, and we should proudly take from it.

2. Remove Your Doubts and Hers with istikhārah Prayer


Deciding on a partner for marriage is a daunting undertaking and there are far too many variables to consider, most of them too far out in the distant future for any but Allāh (SWT) to see, so the best plan is to pray istikhārah and take guidance from Allāh (SWT) on the matter. The beautiful thing about istikhārah is if the marriage works out, then any lingering insecurities can be shut down with, “And this is what Allāh ordained for me, and this is what is best for me.” If things don't work out, that's good too, disaster averted. Share your decision with her, and let her know it was based on istikhārah prayer.
Beyond this, when there are insecurities that come to mind, you can turn to Allāh (SWT) to keep your heart firm on the guidance He's given you and make du‘ā’ for help in overcoming any mental roadblocks attempting to bar your way to happiness with this soulmate He (SWT) has chosen for you.

3. Take Control of the Inner Dialogue


Every single day, you will meet people who are bigger, faster, stronger, smarter, wittier, and more skilled than you. If you allow your mind to dwell on your weaknesses vs their strengths, then you will always see yourself as the lesser person. What can be worse in this situation is dwelling on what is unknown, wondering if you are being compared unfavorably against someone else.

As I mentioned earlier, it's important you move forward only after feeling confident in your istikhārah and making du‘ā’ to Allāh to help with your heart. Additionally, you should seek refuge with Allāh from Shaytaan and his whispering. Beyond this you have to also tie your camel, and part of this is taking time alone to reflect on your fears and try to understand where they're coming from.
Upon reflection, you may find that your mind is asking itself the wrong questions and answering with worst case scenarios, such as “What if I'm not as good as her previous husband?” and answering with “She will think me a lesser man.”

Part of solving this problem is taking control of that inner dialogue by asking yourself much better questions. If you've prayed istikhārah and feel confident you've made the right decision, you might instead ask yourself, “How much barakah and love will Allāh (SWT) place between us because we are doing this to please Him?” and you may start to imagine a scenario in your mind where your wife is wildly in love with you and you with her. The more often you do this, you'll find your heart at ease, and the other question will become like a fly buzzing around your head, easily swatted away with du‘ā’ to Allāh (SWT) and the strong, positive emotions in your heart.

The ultimate confidence is knowing that Allāh (SWT) supports you, and when you know that, you cannot help but imagine the best is yet to come, both in this life and the next, no matter the difficulties you encounter along the way.

Conclusion


In the end, the marriage with the divorced sister didn't happen for me (she ended it) and we parted amicably for the sake of Allāh (ok, so the first few days I was really disappointed, but it passed :)) and although I didn't have to revisit the issue, I was thankful for the experience because I grew tremendously as a person and I gained an appreciation for the difficulty both women with previous relationship experience face in finding husbands and the difficulty some men may face in overcoming their own fears and insecurities.

If anyone were to ask me about a situation similar to mine, I'd tell them to not turn away the sister just because of their insecurities or cultural stigmas. If you find you have insecurities as I did, then take it as an opportunity for growth and work on overcoming them while seeking help from Allāh (SWT). It may be that her previous relationship and the lessons from it is the means Allāh (SWT) has chosen for both uniting you with her as well as teaching her, based on experiences from her previous relationship, to appreciate the good that you possess.


http://muslimmatters.org/2013/04/19/...ged-standards/
Reply

Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 06:20 PM
Zaria is that what you do to people who don't share your views you dismiss them and assume they don't know what they're talking about because it seems to you they haven't experienced it. Zaria reread your posts before posting them. Any way either stay on topic or else just remove your posts because you are introducing subjects that don't even have the slightest link to this topic. You guys flooded the thread with rants and aggressive remarks without even explaining them. You want me yo be kind and lenient then I should expect the same from you guys. It's not my fault you don't understand the nature of my OP so quit taking out your frustration on me in this passive aggressive nature.

Just for the sake of it give me one sentence where I have implied that virgins should not marry non virgins. You will see I never have. I have only outline the consequences and ticky things that might cause unstability. Actaully if you even read without your presumptions you'll find that more than 99 percent of your posts hardly ever address my OP. I might be less self righteous than you think stop judging people you are not qualified for that.
Reply

Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 06:34 PM
I deleted a text because I was wrong and I apologise to Zaria for that.

Saying that looking down on virgins should stop. Makes me self righteous?. The other ones were out of context they don't make me self-righteous at all. I never exhibited any holier than thou attitude. Virginity is not over-rated.
Reply

~Zaria~
05-07-2013, 06:38 PM
Passive-Aggressive nature? Lol, thats so ironical!

We have simply tried to show why 'Virginity' in itself is not a virtue (as this can be lost in many ways, and not only through illicit relationships), but that there is more emphasis placed on one maintaining his/ her chastity for the pleasure of Allah.

None of us have tried to promote a lifestyle of promiscuity, as described in the intial post.
And none of us have displayed 'shame of being virgin'.
We are all in agreement, that a persons piety and relationship with Allah is very important when deciding on a marriage partner.

Our responses have been merely to address those statements that we do not agree with.
Often, it requires a lengthier type of response to try to fully explain oneself.
But I can assure you, that we do understand the nature of this thread.


Was salaam
Reply

~Zaria~
05-07-2013, 06:43 PM
About the things you are implying are not true and I have responded with them to you. I thimk you're a little confused because it doesn't seem to me like you've realised that some of these qoutes are extracted from the OP and less importantly half paragraphs and sentences. But most importantly the op a post written probably more than 10 hrs before you've even seen it how can you claim I replied to you using them?.
Ermm, all these quotes were replies that were made during the course of the day, and are not from the OP.
Reply

Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 06:48 PM
Yeah okay whatever you say. So answer my question. Why did you extract these qoutes to orchastrate an arguement that has never been raised. I would like an answer. Also no offence but you should really stop confusing things inorder to save your pride. It's okay we all make mistakes the difference between people and other people is that some are actually willing to admit they were wrong and others not. I advise you to make a thread of your own proposing your opinions and I assure you I wont intrude. These issues you keep on bringing up have nothing to do with this thread and even though you confidently claim that you have grasped a very well understanding of the OP I wonder what is the explanation of your failure in addressing them maybe you just don't know how to express your self who knows I'm not interested.
Reply

Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 06:50 PM
Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
Ermm, all these quotes were replies that were made during the course of the day, and are not from the OP.
Zaria I dont want to be rude but you clearly can't read very well either that or you're a professional emotional manipulator.
Good luck with your life.
Reply

~Zaria~
05-07-2013, 07:06 PM
^ Lol!

Seriously, all of your quotes that I have referred to, are from post 6 onwards.

And finally, you ask: "Just for the sake of it give me one sentence where I have implied that virgins should not marry non virgins."

Please refer to post 6:


Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
There are so many families who will refuse their child from marrying a person who is divorced/ widowed - because they desire that their child be married to some-one of a similiar (non-virgin) status. This individual may turn down many potentially good spouses, and may now be much older - and still waiting to find this 'perfect' person.
Originally Posted by Berries'forest
Too bad that just goes to prove my case.

I honestly cant understand the hostility in your tone.
But thats ok.

All the best to you too sister.

:wasalam:
Reply

Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 07:15 PM
No I am perfectly calm. I was just giving you an assessment of what I gather from reading some of your posts. Don't accuse people of things you don't know of and sometimes life is much better when we toss our worries aside and not consider every disagreeing view as threat or a personal attack. If you want to qoute something qoute the whole thing and not misdingvparts of jigsaw.

I actually don't know or believe that you want all the best for me but I can't deceive myself and others because you're only an online acquintace and I don't mean to be blunt but I'm indifferent.
Reply

Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 07:21 PM
Final thing since you mentioned a qoute.

Me: "Too bad that goes to prove my point".
It was you and not me who's implied that families of non virgins seek the mating of no virgins similar to themselves, expressing a disfavor in the option of marrying a virgin ofcourse. Zaria either you were caught up with finding the right words of expressing your view or your words have betrayed you. Reading twice never hurts does it.
Reply

~Zaria~
05-07-2013, 07:28 PM
I actually don't know or believe that you want all the best for me but I can't deceive myself and others because you're only an online acquintace and I don't mean to be blunt but I'm indifferent.
Why wouldnt I want the best for you?

I have merely expressed my thoughts on a topic and shared the views of other scholars and authors as well.
I honestly dont take anything that has been discussed personally, and I hope that you do not either.



EDIT:

It was you and not me who's implied that families of non virgins seek the mating of no virgins similar to themselves, expressing a disfavor in the option of marrying a virgin ofcourse. Zaria either you were caught up with finding the right words of expressing your view or your words have betrayed you. Reading twice never hurts does it.
Im not sure how you can twist anothers words to your interpretations - but here you do it again.
You are well aware that this was not my meaning, and hence your initial reply to it was as quoted.

In any case, I think I have said all that I can in posts 14/15.

Thats all for me.


BarakAllahu feekum,

Was salaam
Reply

*charisma*
05-07-2013, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Berries'forest
I haven't been living. The fact is there is no difference between virginity and chastity, perhaps you guys mean modesty?. I'm not sure but even that is up to dispute. I think you guys are way too sensitive. I am well aware of the punishment Allah swt has subscribed to those whom making people despair of His mercy. I never raised that point no where have I even slightly insinuated anything on that matter. I was refuting or maybe answering; the notion of claiming that virginity is over rated . I'm sorry but is this just not another way of apologetic and trying to just eradicate the complete doctrine, to me that's how it is and I felt I should voice my opinion.
The fact is, there is a difference between chastity and virginity. Someone who has oral sex, masturbates, and does everything under the sun except intercourse, is still considered a virgin but is not chaste. That's what you're not understanding. Modesty is irrelevant to any of this.

and no one is being sensitive about this, if at all you are the sensitive one lol, no one is taking offense to anything you're saying nor getting agitated as much as you are.

Your post is speaking about virginity and that's what everyone else is speaking about as far as I can see. No one was speaking against you but rather elaborating on some things to make it clearer for those who do come and view this thread. If you were here just to rant, then feel free to start a blog, otherwise nothing you said is anything new. You're not expressing any points in your replies.

Yes Allah said we have to be chaste, yes we have to remain virgins. Yes the majority of muslims know this. Why they don't act upon it is of question as that's their own choice. No one is taking the subject of virginity lightly, and no one is saying it's ok not to be a virgin or not to be chaste. However, we are making cases so that everyone knows what they are, so they don't become so judgmental like you. So now what is your point?? Stop whining about how "aggressive" the posts or posters are. They're written words, they don't need a little smiley face after each sentence. It's called being formal.


fi aman allah
w'salaam
Reply

Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 08:05 PM
Zaria my warrant was clear reread your posts modify and edit them so that you're not misunderstood also don't blame the downfall of your mistakes on others and then accuse them of twisting things. You qouted your self and I replied to you where's the so called twisting in that you don't like to admit your mistakes it's really your choice just spare me your snarks and do your self a favor by reading things thoroughly before jumping to false and hasty conclusions.
Reply

Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 08:07 PM
Charisma I really like your post. Goodthing this thread turn out to be a punch bag for those you who wanted it to. Good day.
Reply

~Zaria~
05-07-2013, 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Berries'forest
Zaria my warrant was clear reread your posts modify and edit them so that you're not misunderstood also don't blame the downfall of your mistakes on others and then accuse them of twisting things. You qouted your self and I replied to you where's the so called twisting in that you don't like to admit your mistakes it's really your choice just spare me your snarks and do your self a favor by reading things thoroughly before jumping to false and hasty conclusions.
???

There's absolutely no error in the above stated quote.

Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
There are so many families who will refuse their child from marrying a person who is divorced/ widowed - because they desire that their child be married to some-one of a similiar (non-virgin) status. This individual may turn down many potentially good spouses, and may now be much older - and still waiting to find this 'perfect' person.


It's clear that you are looking for faults where there are none, and seeking some sort of argumentation for no real reason.
As you please.
Reply

Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 09:04 PM
Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
???

There's absolutely no error in the above stated quote.

Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
There are so many families who will refuse their child from marrying a person who is divorced/ widowed - because they desire that their child be married to some-one of a similiar (non-virgin) status. This individual may turn down many potentially good spouses, and may now be much older - and still waiting to find this 'perfect' person.


It's clear that you are looking for faults where there are none, and seeking some sort of argumentation for no real reason.
As you please.
I thought you were done?. Why'd you come back?. Anyway didn't you just tell me a few minutes ago that I twsited your statements. Why the sudden change of heart?. Some families, according to you, discourage their sons from marrying widows and divorcees because the same family wants them to marry someone of same status non virgin which implies the granted son is not a virgin himself. Perhaps they want him to marry someone who's really experienced,no?.

Correction: You still insist on not correcting your statment. If you had only been careful enough to erase the non from virgin. I wouldn't have said anything against it at all.
Reply

~Zaria~
05-07-2013, 09:24 PM
I thought you were done?. Why'd you come back?. Anyway didn't you just tell me a few minutes ago that I twsited your statements. Why the sudden change of heart?. Some families, according to you, discourage their sons from marrying widows and divorcees because the same family wants them to marry someone of same status non virgin which implies the granted son is not a virgin himself. Perhaps they want him to marry someone who's really experienced,no?.

Correction: You still insist on not correcting your statment. If you had only been careful enough to erase the non from virgin. I wouldn't have said anything against it at all.
The 'non' has been removed.
Would it not have been easier to just mention the obvious typo in the statement directly, rather than engage in a rant?

Its obvious from the length of my entire post that I am not against someone who marries a divorced/ widowed person.

Why is your speech filled with such bitterness?

If you do not have any meaningful response to posts 14/15, then please - just relax.


Wa-alaikumsalam
Reply

Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 09:29 PM
I am sorry they seem so bitter to you. I just don't like it when people try to portray someone as the bad guy while they are on mistake. I didn't engage in any rant with you, you brought up the qoute and I gave you a response twice. How was I supposed to know you weren't serious?. Especially when you kept laughing out loud and insisting it was me who has a fault.
Reply

Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 09:57 PM
Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
Sister, there are members here who are simply airing their points of view.
Theres absolutely no need to be aggressive or sarcastic in your manner of speech to others, esp since everyone is entitled to how they may feel.
Nobody here has tried to re-define the principles laid out in Islam, so please calm down a little.
I could be wrong but it seems likely from your posts that you are unmarried/ have never been married before, and perhaps this could be influencing your personal stance on this issue.
As I had mentioned on the previous thread, as one gets older and Allah tests a person by means of divorce, death of a spouse and other forms of trials - we start to see the world through different, and more mature eyes.
I should first clarify that I, and it appears others on this thread do NOT view 'virginity' and 'chastity' as one and the same.
Virginity is a state of not ever having initimate relations.
Chastity is the state or practice of refraining from extramarital, or especially from all, sexual intercourse (Oxford Dictionary).
In other words, a non-virgin may be able to remain 'chaste' in the sense that they do not engage in any extra-marital relations.
I would hate to think that you are referring to all the brothers and sisters on the forum who may be divorced/ widowed as being 'unchaste'.
The second point is, that you seem to have taken a few statements made on this thread and the previous one, and have completely blown our intentions out the water.
Please refrain from this.
The following comments (as well as many others) were not implied or intended in my posts, and are simply untrue: Originally Posted by Berries'forest But it's makes a big difference with the words you choose saying that virginity is overrated is another way of blatantly declaring that it has no place or value in Islam when it's truly not the case. You are degrading it's value so that anyone reading those words would think that it's fine and good to lose your virginity as long as you are pure in the heart. Originally Posted by Berries'forest Keeping yourself a virgin is a commandment from Allah swt and being chaste is also a commandment from Allah. It's in the scripture and it can't be erased to please the senseblities of those who wish to do other wise.
What should we wait for next? The same same thing that's being done for Hijab is being done for keeping yourself preserved or what?. Are we gonna hear muslims bashfully and nervously shuddering excuses like "Oh it's just a tradition those whom wish to follow it can and others who don't are okay; after all faith is in the heart and being chaste is more important than being virgin". Faith is a word of action, your intentions may weigh nothing if you had the ability to do something and you didn't. Originally Posted by Berries'forest The disfavor and despising attitude towards virgins should stop. Originally Posted by Berries'forest The notion of making unlawful things slightly lawful or overlooked under certain conditions was being held there. Originally Posted by Berries'forest I think from the first reply it does seem to me that virginity seems no more a requiremnt for marriage conditions. Originally Posted by Berries'forest Too bad that just goes to prove my case. ^ Unfortunately, the only one who is displaying a 'self-righteous' attitude at the moment is yourself, by implying that there is nothing wrong in turning down a potential suitor, because by your notion they are 'unchaste', even if they had lost their virginity in a previous marriage and are now divorced or widowed.

Post number 14, you demand a meaningful response.

You start out by saying that I use sarcasm and aggressiveness through out my posts.

My answer: I did use sarcasm on purpose. If you actually follow the posts you can detect that Icee here was simply trying to make me look stupid by all means. As he previously did in some other threads. There's nothing agressive in telling someone things without sugar coating them. I might use sarcasm but if it bothers you so much you were never compelled to reply.

Your 2nd point: No body has tried to re define the concepts in Islam.

My answer: You guys have your own way with semantic that you really don't need to directly attempt to redefine anything at all. Distiniguishing between vriginity and chastity then attributing eternal span to virginity then turning into being virgin without having direct contact. Firstly It has absolutely nothing to do with the OP and secondly it makes no sense.

The 3rd point:
"Chastity is the state or practice of refraining from extramarital, or especially from all, sexual intercourse (Oxford Dictionary).
In other words, a non-virgin may be able to remain 'chaste' in the sense that they do not engage in any extra-marital relations.
I would hate to think that you are referring to all the brothers and sisters on the forum who may be divorced/ widowed as being 'unchaste'."


I can't help but wonder what your intentions were when you wrote the bolded sentence. My post just above explicitly cited that the theme of the thread is about out of wedlock encounters. I've already said it's not relevant. There is a seperate word for married people who've comsumamted their marraige the ones that refrain from engaging in extra-marital relationships. Fidel.

The 4rth point:
The following comments (as well as many others) were not implied or intended in my posts, and are simply untrue: Originally Posted by Berries'forest But it's makes a big difference with the words you choose saying that virginity is overrated is another way of blatantly declaring that it has no place or value in Islam when it's truly not the case. You are degrading it's value so that anyone reading those words would think that it's fine and good to lose your virginity as long as you are pure in the heart. Originally Posted by Berries'forest Keeping yourself a virgin is a commandment from Allah swt and being chaste is also a commandment from Allah. It's in the scripture and it can't be erased to please the senseblities of those who wish to do other wise.
What should we wait for next? The same same thing that's being done for Hijab is being done for keeping yourself preserved or what?. Are we gonna hear muslims bashfully and nervously shuddering excuses like "Oh it's just a tradition those whom wish to follow it can and others who don't are okay; after all faith is in the heart and being chaste is more important than being virgin". Faith is a word of action, your intentions may weigh nothing if you had the ability to do something and you didn't.

1/ You did say that virginity is over rated did you not?. Why then when I point out that it's not true you accuse me of implying falshood. Wasn't the first reply No virginity is not a virtue chastity is. There is nothing wrong with what I said.
2/ Keeping your self chaste is a commandment from Allah. There notion of virginity being overrated opposes to that.
3/Charisma has provided us with a good parable in her first post.

Then you post alengthy article abour divorce, it seemed to me like you were trying too hard because divorce has nothing to do with this topic.

The rest of you personality report I'm not gonna answer to it. And for your second post it has nothing to do with my thread so I have no reply to that either.
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Berries'forest
05-07-2013, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by Berries'forest
Unfortunately, the only one who is displaying a 'self-righteous' attitude at the moment is yourself, by implying that there is nothing wrong in turning down a potential suitor, because by your notion they are 'unchaste', even if they had lost their virginity in a previous marriage and are now divorced or widowed.
I don't know how I missed this. Know one thing God knows of me more than you do. He knows what is inside of my heart and the core of my intentions. Where may I ask have I ever said the by even the slightest hint of implication that it's okay to turn down a non virgin suitor?. I never said they were un chaste where did I say that?. Especially when I kept reiterating that *exceptional* cases are not the target nor are specific people or collective groups choosing to do whatever they want. The target was the notion. If anything I only pointed out that it's not only the non virgins who might feel a littel anxious or worried about marrying a virgin virgins too go through a cycle of their own discomfort. I can declare to you and reckon that that word precisley was never printed on any of my posts. *unchaste*. Except for this one.
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~Zaria~
05-07-2013, 10:28 PM
You should realise that the only reason I had responded to this thread in the first place, was because you had directly referred to the statements made by sister charisma and myself from the previous thread - and in doing so, produced an explanation for our words, which we did not endorse/ identify with.

If it appears that my response was not in the direction of the OP, this was because it was an attempt to clarify our postion - from the previous thread.

I think it is easy to misinterpret ones words over an on-line medium such as this, but sometimes it is important to consider what is said in context of the entire discussion.
When saying that 'virginity is over-rated' - it was in no way an endorsement for promiscuity. We are all aware of the serious nature of adultery and fornication.
So, you are in effect preaching to the converted with regards to this.

It seems you extrapolated alot from this one phrase (as bolded) - which is simply not true of how we feel about this issue:

The 4rth point:
The following comments (as well as many others) were not implied or intended in my posts, and are simply untrue: Originally Posted by Berries'forest But it's makes a big difference with the words you choose saying that virginity is overrated is another way of blatantly declaring that it has no place or value in Islam when it's truly not the case. You are degrading it's value so that anyone reading those words would think that it's fine and good to lose your virginity as long as you are pure in the heart.

Originally Posted by Berries'forest Keeping yourself a virgin is a commandment from Allah swt and being chaste is also a commandment from Allah.

It's in the scripture and it can't be erased to please the senseblities of those who wish to do other wise.

What should we wait for next? The same same thing that's being done for Hijab is being done for keeping yourself preserved or what?. Are we gonna hear muslims bashfully and nervously shuddering excuses like "Oh it's just a tradition those whom wish to follow it can and others who don't are okay; after all faith is in the heart and being chaste is more important than being virgin".

Faith is a word of action, your intentions may weigh nothing if you had the ability to do something and you didn't.

1/ You did say that virginity is over rated did you not?. Why then when I point out that it's not true you accuse me of implying falshood. Wasn't the first reply No virginity is not a virtue chastity is. There is nothing wrong with what I said.
2/ Keeping your self chaste is a commandment from Allah. There notion of virginity being overrated opposes to that.
3/Charisma has provided us with a good parable in her first post.

^ When mentioning that 'virginity is over-rated', it is in the context of how certain cultures have placed undue pressure on muslims when seeking marriage in this regard.
Divorced and widowed men/ women often find it more difficult to find partners as a result.
So, this is what is meant by: 'Chastity is a virtue, not virginity (per say)'.

You further tried to describe that virginity and chastity is one and the same - to which we tried to show otherwise.

The two articles that were posted was in response to your sentiments that its 'too bad' if divorced/ widowed people do not get accepted for marriage as a result of their non-virgin status - which i think is now cleared up.


With regards to your manner in responding to others, i think a healthier discussion can ensue without the aggressiveness/ sarcasm.
I dont think anyone is trying to make others 'look stupid', but instead, they may challenge our thought processes by means of questioning.

A lot of confusion can be avoided if we just address questions and statements directly.

Also, to try and not extrapolate someone elses sentiments, based on a few phrases - as in reality, they could be meaning something completely differently.
Rather ask them directly, and in shaa Allah, this can clear up a lot of doubts and save alot of time.


Was salaam
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~Zaria~
05-07-2013, 10:37 PM
I dont think I have been part of a thread with as much misunderstandings as this one....




Where may I ask have I ever said the by even the slightest hint of implication that it's okay to turn down a non virgin suitor?. I never said they were un chaste where did I say that?. Especially when I kept reiterating that *exceptional* cases are not the target nor are specific people or collective groups choosing to do whatever they want. The target was the notion. If anything I only pointed out that it's not only the non virgins who might feel a littel anxious or worried about marrying a virgin virgins too go through a cycle of their own discomfort. I can declare to you and reckon that that word precisley was never printed on any of my posts. *unchaste*. Except for this one.
As mentioned above, it appears missing the word 'non' has made a huge difference in understanding each others views.....

However you have said:

You *can't* literally become chaste again after intentionally losing your virginity maybe this is possible metaphorically yes or even through modern medical operations but onces that state is gone it's gone forever and that is why it's precious.
^which was understood as: even those who were previously married or those who may have erred in the distant past - can never practise a state of chastity again. Which is not the case.
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جوري
05-07-2013, 11:11 PM
Al-Hujurat (The Dwellings) [49:10] [RECITE]
[top] [next match]
Innama almuminoona ikhwatun faaslihoo bayna akhawaykum waittaqoo Allaha laAAallakum turhamoona
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