ENGLAND: Home of the Islamophobe extremists...

[islamica]

A 75 year old elderly Muslim Man was taking his usual route home after praying at his local Mosque with the aid of his walking stick. It was just a few yards away from his home when cowardly terrorists struck in cold blood from behind.

The attack on this dear old man, was so sick, vicious and barbaric, that the victim didn't even have a chance to defend himself (no defensive wounds were found). The blows were struck with such violence they penetrated to the front of his body.

Why was this not covered by media as extensively as the British soldier? Why wasn't this seen as a terrorist attack?


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...mosque.html?fb


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ma...tivated-police

[observer]

It's a disgusting crime, but I'm not sure why you say it should be called terrorism rather than murder? As for media coverage, unfortunately knife murders are pretty common in the UK - here are some horrible statistics (just for teens in London) http://www.citizensreportuk.org/repo...er-london.html
They don't all even make the news unless there's something different about them.

The soldier being killed was something that the UK has never seen before hence the extensive coverage.

[glo]

Posted this a couple of days ago in another thread and will post it again here.

We communally prayed for BOTH people and BOTH situations in church today.

May peace prevail in our communities and the perpetrators be brought to justice.

[glo]

It's a disgusting crime, but I'm not sure why you say it should be called terrorism rather than murder?

Hi observer

We've had extensive discussions on the definition of terrorism in this thread. Perhaps best take it there. :)

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[observer]

Hi observer

We've had extensive discussions on the definition of terrorism in this thread. Perhaps best take it there. :)

Ah, thanks for the pointer!

[glo]

The coverage was nothing like the attack in Woolwich, but Muhammad Saleem's murder was reported, both locally and nationally:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-22665571

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-22509366

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news...murder-4012527

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ma...tivated-police

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-released.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...g-prayers.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news...e-fear-1866269

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/396...isiting-mosque

http://www.itv.com/news/central/topi...leem-chaudhry/

http://metro.co.uk/2013/04/30/murder...abbed-3707138/

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/c...murder-appeal/

[islamica]

Anti-Muslim Riots - Two extremists arrested after mosque attacks

English Defence League leader Tommy Robinson, left, with EDL supporters outside The Queens Arms pub in Woolwich

22 May 2013

Two men have been arrested after separate attacks on mosques following the solider incident in Woolwich.

A 43-year-old man is in custody on suspicion of attempted arson after reportedly walking into a mosque with a knife in Braintree, Essex.

Local MP Brooks Newmark tweeted: "Local mosque in Braintree attacked by man with knives and incendiary device. Man arrested. No one injured."

Essex Police confirmed a 43-year-old from Braintree had been arrested on suspicion of possession of an offensive weapon and attempted arson after the incident in Silks Way at 7.15pm. The spokesman added that police were investigating the "full circumstances" and said "it would not be appropriate to speculate at this time".

Meanwhile, police in Kent were called to reports of criminal damage at a mosque in Canterbury Street, Gillingham, at 8.40pm. A spokesman said a man is in custody on suspicion of racially-aggravated criminal damage. The force has stepped up the police presence after a man was butchered in broad daylight on the streets of London.

Supporters of the English Defence League (EDL) gathered at Woolwich Arsenal train station near the scene and threw bottles at police.

EDL leader Tommy Robinson, who was among a group of around 250 men, said: "They're chopping our soldiers' heads off. This is Islam. That's what we've seen today."

He added: "They've cut off one of our Army's heads off on the streets of London. Our next generation are being taught through schools that Islam is a religion of peace. It's not. It never has been. What you saw today is Islam. Everyone's had enough. There has to be a reaction, for the Government to listen, for the police to listen, to understand how angry this British public are."

The secretary of the mosque in Braintree, Sikander Saleemy, reportedly told Channel 4 News that he felt like it was a "revenge attack". Mr Saleemy said: "The police said it's too early to try and link it to what happened in Woolwich, but those of us who were here feel that it was some sort of revenge attack. It was clear from the man's behaviour.

"We absolutely condemn what happened in Woolwich, but it had nothing to do with us. It was an appalling act of terror - but it wasn't "Islamic" in any way. I wish it wasn't described like that, because sadly people will now start to blame Muslims."

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/ne...-29289348.html

[glo]

These back-lashes are what makes the whole situation all the more tragic!

A mosque in my home town suffered an arson attack following the Woolwich attack. Luckily not much damage was done, but it causes many problems - peaceful communities are disrupted, Muslims live in fear, Muslims AND non-Muslims are told by the media that they have to fear each other ...

I sent a letter expressing my sadness and support and prayers ... I don't know what difference it will make, but I felt I had to so SOMETHING. :cry:

Much effort is being made to build peaceful relationships between our faiths and others - but it only takes the action of a few idiotic extremists on both sides to undo all that. imsad

Still, I will never give up hope that peace is possible.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

This is a very sad story :(, and to be fair the media did report it, but alas some victims are more equal than others.

It's a disgusting crime, but I'm not sure why you say it should be called terrorism rather than murder? As for media coverage, unfortunately knife murders are pretty common in the UK - here are some horrible statistics (just for teens in London) http://www.citizensreportuk.org/repo...er-london.html
They don't all even make the news unless there's something different about them.

The soldier being killed was something that the UK has never seen before hence the extensive coverage.

Have to disagree with your last line, its not a new phenomena in the UK, looking back into its past.



I think the coverage of Drummer Lee Rigbys death has been over the top, verging on hysteria, I'm not looking forward to the fallout, particularly as certain political factions will use his death to their own advantage. (Which spells trouble for the Muslim community in Britain :hmm: )

Thought this was an unusual comment piece on the situation, not sure what to make of it but it was not what I was expecting.

Drugs, a bigger threat than Al Qaeda

Michael Adebolajo's life changed in his teens when he began taking drugs, especially cannabis

When a soldier was murdered on the streets of London, what use was it to anyone that the Prime Minister flew back from Paris? What use was the fatuous committee, grandiosely called COBRA (SLOW-WORM would be a better name), that gathered portentously in a bunker, as if the Blitz was still on?

This is just street theatre – a bunch of powerless people pretending they can protect us from the wholly unpredictable.

What use are the expensive spooks who track, snoop and file, who want the power to lock us up for weeks and to peer even more deeply into our lives? They failed to prevent this, though they knew all about the suspects. As for the police, living on a reputation they won decades ago and no longer deserve, wouldn’t a constable on old-fashioned foot patrol have been more help on this occasion than the squadrons of armed militia who appeared long after the event, blazing away in the street?

The police force in this country is now bigger than our shrunken Army, but it is extraordinary how its members are never, ever there, except to protect the powerful.

Too busy patrolling Twitter, perhaps.

Now look at the suspects. Oceans of piffle have been written (as usual) about the mythical bogey of ‘Al Qaeda’. We are in yet another frenzy about the ‘hate preachers’ who are the inevitable result of 40 years of state multiculturalism.

The English Defence League (even stupider than the liberal elite) is ‘defending our way of life’ by throwing bottles at the police.

But nobody has seen any significance in the fact that Michael Adebolajo’s life changed utterly when, as a teenager, he began taking drugs, especially cannabis.

Use of this drug, particularly when young, is closely correlated with irreversible mental illness. That’s also when he embraced the barmy version of Islam that seems to have him in its grip.

There are plenty of other young drug-users roaming our streets. Most of them couldn’t even spell ‘Al Qaeda’ and won’t embrace Islam.

But many of them will become mental patients. Some of them, alas, will be ‘released into the community’ to commit awful acts of unhinged violence that barely make the local TV news.

No Prime Ministers will fly back from Paris. No Whitehall committees will meet. No noble statements of defiance will be made.

And yet, if we strengthened and enforced our drug laws, instead of watering them down to nothingness as we have done, much of this would be preventable.

http://hitchensblog.mailonsunday.co.uk/

[observer]

Have to disagree with your last line, its not a new phenomena in the UK, looking back into its past.

Well, that's true, we did have a lot of terrorism back then. I think the style of killing though is completely new, that's what's shocked people.

I agree totally that the fallout is going to be bad - for everyone unfortunately. Anything which furthers the "us-and-them" myth is bad for the whole community.

[Jedi_Mindset]

Non-muslims and muslims alike should watch this:

[observer]

^ That guy talks a lot of sense, especially at the start of the video. I don't necessarily agree that violence against muslims gets little media coverage, but he makes his point well.

[glo]

The Co-Chairs and Vice-Chairs of the Inter Faith Network for the UK issued the following statement today (24 May):

We learned with deep shock and great sadness of the murder of a young member of the armed forces in Woolwich yesterday afternoon. Such acts of violence and terror have no place in our society.

Our thoughts and prayers are with the victim’s family.

The attackers linked their actions with the religion of Islam. Statements from major national Muslim bodies have, in the ensuing hours, condemned the act in the strongest terms and stressed its lack of connection to – and complete contradiction of – teachings of Islam. Even so, there have been attacks on two mosques over the course of the last 24 hours and concerns expressed about the possibility of further attack.

Our thoughts and prayers are also with any whose places of worship or personal safety are affected.

In the wake of this terrible attack, all who share a commitment to a peaceful, safe and just society have a vital role to play in strengthening community bonds and working for greater understanding and mutual support at times of difficulty.

Dr Manazir Ahsan MBE (Co-Chair)
The Revd Bob Fyffe (Co-Chair)
Dr Girdari Lal Bhan (Vice-Chair)
Mr Mohinder Singh Chana (Vice-Chair)
Mr Dorab Mistry (Vice-Chair)
Mr Vivian Wineman (Vice-Chair)

The Inter Faith Network for the UK was founded in 1987 and links 200 member bodies including: national representative bodies of the Baha'i, Buddhist, Christian, Hindu, Jain, Jewish, Muslim, Sikh, and Zoroastrian faiths; national, regional, local and other inter faith bodies; and academic institutions and educational bodies concerned with inter faith issues. It works with members and other agencies to promote good inter faith relations in the UK.

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/18426

[glo]

Non-muslims and muslims alike should watch this:

Nabil makes reference several times to the two perpetrators having been drug addicts. Is that the case? I had not heard about it in the news. (But then, I am not glued to the news coverage 14/7 ...)

[GodIsAll]

I find it worth saying that there is condemnation on this thread (and deservedly so) of the EDL, the political parties of the UK, the crimes against Muslims and of the media.

No one condemns the actions of the men who ran down and butchered a British serviceman in his own nation. There is no justification for this act.

[Jedi_Mindset]

I find it worth saying that there is condemnation on this thread (and deservedly so) of the EDL, the political parties of the UK, the crimes against Muslims and of the media.

No one condemns the actions of the men who ran down and butchered a British serviceman in his own nation. There is no justification for this act.

See the vid i just posted, this act got completely condemned and infact brought more hate upon us. EDL has recieved alot of support after the killings.

[GodIsAll]

Alas, Jedi, I tried to! My kindle doesn't like the link for some reason. I promise I will get on and check it out on the computer asap.

[sister herb]

I sent a letter expressing my sadness and support and prayers ... I don't know what difference it will make, but I felt I had to so SOMETHING. :cry:

I think your act was very important, as to show your support to other people. Even a little act and support might be a big relief to some other.

:statisfie

[Mustafa2012]

Verily To Allaah we belong and to Him we will return.

This is really sad to hear.

How is this going to bring back the soldier that was murdered?

Whoever murdered this innocent man is stupid.

They are just as bad if not worse than the men who killed that soldier.

The reason why he didn't get as much coverage as the soldier is because he's just another "foreigner" in a white majority country.

At a time like this no one wants to hear about a foreigner being stabbed to death just like the soldier was.

Some people just want to see revenge being taken on someone, anyone, just to make them feel better inside, regardless of whether it's right and regardless of whether it's going to achieve anything. That is the mindset of a brainless racist.

If you want to see things improve then step out of that little racist bubble that you live in and start looking into why your government allows ethnic minorities into your countries in the first place. You might actually learn something interesting.

HINT: It's not because they feel sorry for them.

[Karl]

Hmmm the multi cultural experiment seems to be not going so well (for the masses). Britain has been in recent history a fortress Island from which Anglo Saxons could plunder and colonize less technologically advanced and less ruthless war like peoples. But lately they have adopted a very left wing stance of letting all sorts of people in and in the process weakened their security greatly. Why? So they can rachet up their war machine, their "war on terror". So they can rachet up their "Big Brother" security policies and bring in totalitarian laws to grind people down and under even more control. Paranoia and fear plays into the hands of the elite, they are using it to increase the war against Islam and the sheeple will bahh their support.

[islamica]

Extremists Britains calling for rape of Muslim women and beheading of Muslim Kids

May Allah give them what they want for us and and keep our sisters and children safe from their evil. Ameen!

[islamica]

Please STAY SAFE my sisters.

Brothers let your sisters and mothers know what's what outside right now. There's been over 163 reported attacks on Muslims in the past few days. Please be cautious. May Allah protect you all and deal with these ignorant #racist cowards in whatever manner He wishes ameen These cowards go and attack defenseless women Subhanallah. If you see a sister being attacked or think someone's following her or acting suspicious u better deal with it and be there for them inshaAllah. Could easily be one of our mothers. These racist scumbags have no self respect #TERRORISTS #EDL #WoolwichReaction

[PLEASE SHARE!!]

[Hulk]

Any news on the men who killed the soldier?

[islamica]

Any news on the men who killed the soldier?

try a different thread...

http://eyreinternational.wordpress.c...oston-bombing/

[Independent]

This is really sad to hear.

How is this going to bring back the soldier that was murdered?

Of course, it will achieve nothing. But for anyone unfamiliar with London it's worth saying that the location of this murder (Woolwich) is a very poor, deprived area with high unemployment, high immigration, and an old white working class community who feel they have lost out in every direction to incomers. The fact that two of those unwlecome incomers have now committed this atrocity pours petrol onto flames. I don't say this is right - but that's the way it is.

This is not the kind of community which is likely to take a liberal, understanding attitude.

['Abd-al Latif]

Of course, it will achieve nothing. But for anyone unfamiliar with London it's worth saying that the location of this murder (Woolwich) is a very poor, deprived area with high unemployment, high immigration, and an old white working class community who feel they have lost out in every direction to incomers. The fact that two of those unwlecome incomers have now committed this atrocity pours petrol onto flames. I don't say this is right - but that's the way it is.

This is not the kind of community which is likely to take a liberal, understanding attitude.

Are you from the UK?

So you're suggesting the "incomers" and "high immigration" is what's to blame for what's happened to Woolwich? I was there just two days before the murder bro and I saw lots of white people there who seemed to be working just as hard as the "incomers".

I find it very offensive that you'll very subtly blame "incomers" and the "high immigration" for what's happened to Woolwich as a town, and subsequently justify that white people should rightly feel a bitter resentment towards "incomers" because somehow they have "lost out in every direction to incomers", and people of other races haven't lost anything but have made some sort of a gain!

The murder in Woolwich has done nothing for the Muslim community except making life far more difficult to live as a Muslim without being hassled by the law or by racists. It doesn't just affect certain Muslims in a certain locality but it affects every individual Muslim in the UK regardless of age, gender or background (even if it's a revert). Muslims are far more susectable to taunts, physical/verbal/cyber abuse along with a degree of neglect from the authorities because of being a Muslim. Take the causal approach of the police towards the brutal murder by a suspected white man in Birmingham two days ago, hardly any media coverage or sympathy for a man who was killed just as brutally. Same goes to arson attacts, vandalism and other violent attacks at mosques and Muslim-owned businesses – all in the space of a week! Was there any sympathy for one of the Muslims who owned a business that was attacked mentioning that his father had passed away very recently? Talk about giving the word 'stereotype' a whole new definition!

If you truly had any sense of equity in your response you'd have blamed every individual equally for not using their skills and intelligence productively to improve the image of Woolwich. Every human being, regardless of race, colour or background, contributes to the well-being of their locality and it is nothing but downright racism if one thinks other facts, like "incomers", are to blame.

And just out of curiosity, who in the world is going to have a "liberal, understanding attitude" towards a brutal murder? Is this dependant on time, place and thriving and prosperous community? I think not!

[Independent]

Are you from the UK?

I lived there in the past - not far from this area at one time.

[Independent]

I see you've added to your post.

So you're suggesting the "incomers" and "high immigration" is what's to blame for what's happened to Woolwich?

No - if you read my post I say 'I don't say this is right'.

I find it very offensive that you'll very subtly blame "incomers" and the "high immigration" for what's happened to Woolwich as a town, and subsequently justify that white people should rightly feel a bitter resentment towards "incomers" because somehow they have "lost out in every direction to incomers",

I don't blame incomers, see above. But low or unskilled workers in deprived areas do blame incomers and have done for decades, so this was a place where extreme reactions were always likely. This is a high violent crime area in the first place. If the same crime happened in Tunbridge Wells there would be astonishment and even more coverage, but not much local hassle for Muslims.

It doesn't just affect certain Muslims in a certain locality but it affects every individual Muslim in the UK regardless of age, gender or background (even if it's a revert).

Of course it does. Many terrorist acts are designed to do this, in order to alienate more people from the wider community and eventually provide more support/recruits. Police 'stop and search' was always a fantastic recruiting sergeant for the IRA.

And just out of curiosity, who in the world is going to have a "liberal, understanding attitude" towards a brutal murder? Is this dependant on time, place and thriving and prosperous community?

Yes it is.

[islamica]

Why don't you guys take your discussion the thread below, this thread is not about non-britains but britains and their islamophobic extremism and intolerance to non-Anglos.

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...e-respond.html

[islamica]

Please STAY SAFE my sisters.

Brothers let your sisters and mothers know what's what outside right now. There's been over 163 reported attacks on Muslims in the past few days. Please be cautious. May Allah protect you all and deal with these ignorant #racist cowards in whatever manner He wishes ameen These cowards go and attack defenseless women Subhanallah. If you see a sister being attacked or think someone's following her or acting suspicious u better deal with it and be there for them inshaAllah. Could easily be one of our mothers. These racist scumbags have no self respect #TERRORISTS #EDL #WoolwichReaction

[PLEASE SHARE!!]

May Allah protect the Muslims from these extremist terrorists, ameen!

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Interesting debate on the issues raised.

[Jedi_Mindset]

UK moves to gag ‘poisonous’ radical preachers, clamp down on Internet extremism


The UK Prime Minister has announced an anti-terror task force to clamp down on the "poisonous narratives" of radical preachers who target recruits in schools, jails and mosques. However, some fear the government’s efforts could actually worsen extremism.
According to the Daily Mail, the unit was launched by Prime Minister David Cameron in the wake of the brutal murder of Lee Rigby, a 25-year-old drummer in the British Army. Rigby was beheaded in southeast London’s Woolwich neighborhood by two men who said the murder was motivated by the UK’s involvement in the Afghanistan and Iraq wars.

The Tackling Extremism and Radicalization Task Force (TERFOR) will be composed of key Cabinet ministers, including Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg, Home Secretary Theresa May and Chancellor George Osborne, as well as Metropolitan Police Commissioner Sir Bernard Hogan-Howe and Director General of the Security Service Andrew Parker.

“We are looking at the range of powers and current methods of dealing with extremism at its root, as opposed to just tackling criminal violent extremism. And we will look at ways of disrupting individuals who may be influential in fostering extremism. We cannot allow a situation to continue where extremist clerics go around this country inciting young people to commit terrorist acts. We will do everything we can to stop it,” an unidentified source told the Daily Mail.

TERFOR will study a number of young people who have become radicalized, like Rigby’s murderers, the newspaper reported. The source stressed that “there is no question of restricting freedom of speech – this is about preventing people spreading the message of extremism and radicalization in a totally irresponsible and reckless way.”

Last week, three men were taken into custody for anti-Muslim speech on Twitter and Facebook, and one was charged with "malicious communications" on Facebook. Two others were arrested under the Public Order Act “on suspicion of inciting racial or religious hatred.”

Demonstrators protest against the killing of British soldier Lee Rigby, outside the Woolwich barracks in southeast London May 26, 2013 (Reuters / Olivia Harris)

Terror videos a hit on the Internet


While Cameron asks UK Muslims to be more proactive in condemning Islamist terrorism, there are hundreds of videos promoting terror and telling British Muslims to wage jihad available on the Internet, including Al-Qaeda training videos and sermons.

Google chief Eric Schmidt, whose company owns YouTube, believes some of the videos could help intelligence services and police track down potential terrorists. “We have taken the decision that information, if it’s legal, even if it’s despicable, will be indexed,” Schmidt said during the Hay literary festival.

UK Home Secretary Theresa May said on Sunday that it is “essential” to grant intelligence agencies the capacity to access communications data, despite overwhelming opposition to the Draft Communications Data Bill revealed last year.

The bill – widely known as the ‘snooper’s charter’ – would have given agencies, including police and intelligence services, access to information and data collection by Internet service providers, including web browsing histories, social media messages and online gaming, storing them all for 12 months.

Shortly after the killing last week, UK authorities slammed the media for giving airtime to radical cleric Anjem Choudary, who refused to condemn the attack. "A mistake of the BBC to invite Anjem Choudary onto the telly tonight," shadow Defense Secretary Jim Murphy wrote on Twitter.

The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) has decried Rigby’s murder in a statement on its website, saying that “after Woolwich, we understand the Prime Minister needs an effective strategy in the face of such a horrific instance of extremism.”

“The killers of Drummer Lee Rigby attempted to sow division amongst Britons through the propaganda of their deed. Yet in large numbers, British Muslims stood up and declared loudly and clearly that this murder was not in our name,” the MCB said.

However, the group went on to stress that it still hoped “wisdom prevails” in how the government handles the issue: "We must be vigilant and ensure we do not inadvertently give into the demands of all extremists: Making our society less free, divided and suspicious of each other. Lessons from the past indicate that policies and measures taken in haste can exacerbate extremism."

http://rt.com/news/terfor-tackle-extremism-cameron-830/


anyone who has a brain should think now.

[glo]

I thought I'd share this comment from a friend who is a female clergy in the Church of England. I think she makes some good points.

I'd appreciate some feedback on a few thoughts.

Just as women's rights will not be acknowledged without also acknowledging the human rights of all, and that men's lives are just as affected by the oppression of women - so all of us must discern what part each of us has played in the radicalisation of the more vulnerable in our society - whether we are Muslim or Christian or atheist.
From the manner in which Islam is portrayed in the media and by government, to the reluctance to label far right groups as 'radicalised' and potential terrorists.
There was the case recently in Leicestershire of young teenagers collecting pipe bombs in order to attack their Muslim classmates - is this not also terrorism? Is this not also 'radicalisation'?

What do we focus on as a society?
Culturally we focus on where others go wrong and practically celebrate it. Perhaps we are all culpable for the poison within our society.

Is it possible to find a way of celebrating what is positive? And realise that it is only in working together we can truly safeguard the young and vulnerable?

[Jedi_Mindset]

EDL are cowards, i cant wait till they come here again. Last time they ran away after stirring up trouble.
I want to meet that tommy robinson straight in my face and lets see if he still has a big mouth.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Here's another response to the situation unfolding.


An Advice from Hizb ut-Tahrir to the Muslim Community after the Woolwich Killing

We have been here before. Yet, listening to the reactions, it would seem, on first impressions, that few people have learned anything constructive and that many will use this event for political gain.

In the last 24 hours we have seen back-to-back coverage and countless commentators, politicians and self-styled spokesman lining up to talk about Islam and ‘extremism’.

The media has labelled this killing an act of ‘terror’ against an entire population, when it has the appearance of a targeted, bloody act that would shock anyone with concern for human life. Sadly, such labeling of some acts of violence as ‘terrorism’ and others as ‘targeted strikes’ or ‘defensive actions’ underline the fact that much of commentary is little more than propaganda.

Political leaders march out to say they will not be cowed by ‘terror’, but then give the impression that everyone ought to be terrified – by talking of instructing off-duty soldiers to wear civilian clothing instead of uniform. We would not be surprised if they went on to implement some macho security measures, so exacerbating ordinary peoples’ fears that they are in immediate mortal danger from a hidden enemy.

In their rush to comment before the facts are clear, some panicky Muslims protest their innocence – and inadvertently reinforce the false narrative that the Muslim community isn’t doing enough to prevent this type of attack. They would do well to hear the intelligent view expressed that Muslims shouldn’t have to distance themselves from this sort of attack.

Far-right bigots use the episode to make a more generalised attack on Muslims, immigrants and ‘creeping Shari’ah’ – whilst the MP George Galloway has somehow made a comparison to those rebelling against Assad in Syria! Within hours, everyone seems to be making political mileage out of this incident, before all the facts are actually confirmed

In the face of this complex situation we make the following statements:

1. This episode will once again be used to try to silence critics of UK foreign policy and label religious Muslims as extreme.

The narrative that has been spun for the past 8 years in the UK is that British government foreign policy is NOT the cause of terror. Rather, it is spun that Muslims who have a grievance about foreign policy or who are more religious are the dangerous ones.

Those who are religious, who hold orthodox Islamic views, will be labelled with increased vigour as ‘extremists’ on a road to terrorism and those who legitimately criticise belligerent, colonial policies in the Muslim world will be labelled as peddling a perverse ideology that needs tackling at its root.

We urge Muslims to resist this pressure. Whilst it is necessary to clarify to everyone that Islam considers it haram to take innocent life, it would be wrong to become silent about injustices where we see them. One should not allow fanatical media coverage to silence our criticism and the work to eradicate the scourge of occupation and colonialism in the Muslim world and unite the Muslim Ummah under the Islamic Khilafah State.

Allah (swt) says:

Believers, have taqwa of Allah, and speak in a direct fashion and to good purpose, and He will put your actions right for you and forgive you your sins. [Surah Ahzab 33:70].

If today is not the day to address foreign policy or injustices in Muslim lands, then tomorrow is not a day to remain silent about such matters. To address such things in a political and intellectual way is not ‘extremism’, but part of what our Deen instructs in speaking against munkar.

Nor would it be right for Muslims to shy away from what Islam really does say about war and peace, fighting and political matters – allowing the vacuum to be filled by people who either justify every act of violence through Islam, or who say Islam has nothing to say about such matters.

Our words should be frank but not discourteous, honest but not trampling over people’s concerns and sensitivities.

2. This episode will be used to create fear about Islam amongst ordinary people in society, stirring hatred and peddling myths.

Average men and women in the UK get their information about Islam from politically motivated media stereotypes – and individuals who are either paid or promoted to tell them that ‘Islamists’ (their words for those who look to Islam to address any of life’s affairs) are today’s bogeymen.

It is only when sincere Muslims up and down the UK engage with people upon an honest and complete view of Islam – through their ideas and deeds – that an average UK man or woman has any chance of understanding anything different.

Our duty as Muslims in the West is to carry this Deen and to explain it in an honest way to the ignorant or misled.

We should open our Mosques and invite neighbours to talk about Islam – and be prepared to answer the difficult questions non-Muslims have.

We must instruct our community on how to be able to answer these difficult questions – not to shy away from them, nor to reinvent Islam to make it compatible with secular-liberal ideas, thinking we are pleasing them.

We should hold fast to the noble Islamic values so that in our personal lives people see the example of this beautiful Deen.

We should not fall into traps laid for us, to become locked into the agenda of the far-right racists and so get entangled into conflicts with people who are essentially jahil – when Allah SWT tells us that the slaves of the Most Merciful are those…”who walk on the earth in humility and sedateness, and when the jahil address them (with bad words) they reply with mild words of gentleness.” [Surah Furqan 25:63]

Our role should be to carry dawah, as Allah commands:

“Call to the Way of your Lord with wisdom and a good admonition, and debate with them in a manner that is good.” [Surah al-Nahl 16:125]

In Summary:

This is our sincere advice. The Muslim who holds fast to their Deen with sincerity and steadfastness at such difficult times can look to Allah ‘Azza wa Jall to help them.

However, our sincere advice to anyone who deviates from their Deen – who does actions of any nature, whether political or physical, that contradict the Shari’ah of Allah – whether driven by fear of others, or expectation of some short-term gain, or revenge, or any other reason – cannot expect anything but humiliation.

But if they turn away, Say: “Allah is sufficient for me: there is no god but He: Upon Him is my trust, and He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme!” [Surah At-Tauba 9:129]

http://www.hizb.org.uk/

[islamica]

found this online...

[Jedi_Mindset]

Imam Asad Zaman:

Quote:
In terms of connecting religion with what's happened and these sort of people that indulge in this sort of behaviour, MI5's own Behavioural Science Unit in June 2008 said 'Far from being religious zealots a large number of those involved in terrorism do not practice their faith regularly. And indeed more interestingly..' they continue to say '...very few have been brought up in strongly religious households. There is evidence that a well established religious identity actually protects against violent radicalisation.'

[Karl]

Britain is Zionist and Muslims are anti Zionists so they are an enemy of the mainstream Zionists of Britain. Ironically they are in the same boat as White (Anglo Saxon, Norse, North West Europeans etc)) Nationalists as far as the System is conserned. The PM and a lot of the administration and establishment in Britain are Zionist Jews. A rise in Islam or White Nationalism would be very detrimental to the status quo. But change is needed as the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. The System is rotten to the core and needs to be taken down as it only serves the Zionist Plutocracy not the people black or white.

[islamica]

Anti-Muslim backlash by Britains

As a small group of supporters of the English Defence League gathered at the scene of the killing of a soldier in Woolwich, they marked a wider pattern of anti-Muslim feeling across the UK, according to monitoring groups.

Two mosques were attacked in the aftermath of the killing, one in Essex, the other in Gillingham in Kent with events there unfolding live on Twitter.

Police were at the mosque just after 21:00 BST on Wednesday and a local Muslim shop owner tweeted: "They broke the book case and some other windows."

"Guy ran in and started smashing things."

Essex Police are questioning a 43-year-old man arrested outside the Islamic Centre in Braintree on suspicion of possessing an offensive weapon and attempted arson. He was detained after officers were called to reports of a man, armed with a knife, in Silks Way.

Tell Mama (Measuring Anti-Muslim Attacks), a London based group that monitors anti-Muslim hatred, spent the evening logging any incidents of Islamaphobia that occurred in reaction to events in Woolwich.

Tell Mama said the latest incidents involved, at their worst, threats to kill but largely low-level abuse - spitting, verbal abuse Muslims, threats of violence, 3 women stripped in public square.

It also said on top of the recorded attacks on mosques there were five further threats to attack religious buildings.

Fiyaz Mughal, runs Tell-Mama, his address had been posted directly to Twitter and users had been invited to shoot him.

Faith Matters, which runs a helpline, said they had received 162 calls since Wednesday's attack, up from a daily average of six.

Anti-Muslim incidents ranged from attacks against mosques, graffiti, the pulling off of Muslim women's headscarves and more general name calling and abuse.

They're coming in from right across the country.

"Secondly, some of them are quite aggressive very focused, very aggressive attacks.

"And thirdly, there also seems to be significant online activity... suggesting co-ordination of incidents and attacks against institutions or places where Muslims congregate."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22664835

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-22636991

[islamica]

Daughter of murdered Mohammed Saleem criticises police

The daughter of a man killed on his way home from a mosque says she believes his death was racially-motivated.

Mohammed Saleem, 75, was stabbed after leaving the Green Lane Mosque in Small Heath, Birmingham, on 29 April.

His daughter, Shazia Khan, said police were not listening to her family and her brother was threatened, apparently by the English Defence League, prior to their father's death.

Video: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england...ngham-22665571

[islamica]

Islamophobs Attack Chicken Shop Run by Muslim Family

Two men entered Dixy Chicken on Green Street, Upton Park at 9.30pm where staff claim they banged on the serving counter, shouting, “You killed one of our soldiers, we’ll kill you” before vandalising the shop.

The heavy glass doors in front of the shop were smashed and Shabbir estimates the men caused thousands of pounds of damage while he also lost a night’s business, having to throw food away.

“My life flashed before my eyes - if they had got over the counter, I don’t know if I’d have been strong enough to fight back.

“I’m scared, I am nervous about going in. My sister Shahanz was quite shaken up but I said to her, we can’t let these people ruin our lives, we will not allow them to get to us.”

http://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news...park_1_2209782

[~Zaria~]

May Allah (subhanawataála) turn the hearts of the enemies of Islam towards the truth.

But, if they are not from those who are to receive hidayat (guidance), and those who allow the ummah of Muhammed (sallalahu alaihi wasalam) to live and practise in peace - then may He cause complete destruction to their schemes and plots.

May He fill the hearts of our brothers and sisters who are bearing all types of affliction (across the world) with sabr (patience) and trust in Him.

And may the jihad that we engage in, first be the means of fighting our own nafs and egos, and then the means of defending and granting honour back to the ummah of our beloved prophet (sallalahu alaihi wasalam).
May He keep our intentions sincere in this regard.

O Allah, protect our brothers and sisters, and grant us victory over those who cause us harm.
You alone have the power and might over all things.

Ameen ya Rabb-ul-aalimeen.

[Abz2000]

I notice that the lamestream media have gone to great lengths to show the "humanness" of this soldier even to the extent of parading his dumped wife on national media, do we see the millions of faces of children, parents, brothers and sisters of all those left behind in Iraq, Afghanistan and countless other illegally invaded Muslim countries?
Where was the indignation at the fact that this man had gone and participated in the illegal invasion of Afghanistan (the questionable 9/11 investigation commission hadn't even been formed - let alone concluded), how many innocent Muslims had he killed? And where was the talk of his moral compass?Not only that, but he was also a recruiter of radicalised British youth, recruiting them knowing they would most likely be commanded to murder innocent people and those resisting occupation (our heroes) around the globe.

Rigby, from Middleton, Greater Manchester, had served in Cyprus, Germany, and Afghanistan before becoming a recruiter and assisting with duties in the Tower of London.

,

How can we even compare this criminal to a 75 year old man walking home from prayers?

I don't know if the method used to punish this "drummer" for his crimes is justified, but I certainly know that we should question our decision to say he was innocent of crimes against humanity. We're nazi soldiers spared at Nuremberg?


verse 178 of chapter 2. البقرة in the Holy Quranيٰأَيُّهَا الَّذينَ ءامَنوا كُتِبَ عَلَيكُمُ القِصاصُ فِى القَتلَى ۖ الحُرُّ بِالحُرِّ وَالعَبدُ بِالعَبدِ وَالأُنثىٰ بِالأُنثىٰ ۚ فَمَن عُفِىَ لَهُ مِن أَخيهِ شَيءٌ فَاتِّباعٌ بِالمَعروفِ وَأَداءٌ إِلَيهِ بِإِحسٰنٍ ۗ ذٰلِكَ تَخفيفٌ مِن رَبِّكُم وَرَحمَةٌ ۗ فَمَنِ اعتَدىٰ بَعدَ ذٰلِكَ فَلَهُ عَذابٌ أَليمٌ

English-YusufAli translation______________________________

O ye who believe! the law of equality is prescribed to you in cases of murder: the free for the free, the slave for the slave, the woman for the woman. But if any remission is made by the brother of the slain, then grant any reasonable demand, and compensate him with handsome gratitude, this is a concession and a Mercy from your Lord. After this whoever exceeds the limits shall be in grave penalty.

verse 217 of chapter 2. البقرة in the Holy Quranيَسـَٔلونَكَ عَنِ الشَّهرِ الحَرامِ قِتالٍ فيهِ ۖ قُل قِتالٌ فيهِ كَبيرٌ ۖ وَصَدٌّ عَن سَبيلِ اللَّهِ وَكُفرٌ بِهِ وَالمَسجِدِ الحَرامِ وَإِخراجُ أَهلِهِ مِنهُ أَكبَرُ عِندَ اللَّهِ ۚ وَالفِتنَةُ أَكبَرُ مِنَ القَتلِ ۗ وَلا يَزالونَ يُقٰتِلونَكُم حَتّىٰ يَرُدّوكُم عَن دينِكُم إِنِ استَطٰعوا ۚ وَمَن يَرتَدِد مِنكُم عَن دينِهِ فَيَمُت وَهُوَ كافِرٌ فَأُولٰئِكَ حَبِطَت أَعمٰلُهُم فِى الدُّنيا وَالءاخِرَةِ ۖ وَأُولٰئِكَ أَصحٰبُ النّارِ ۖ هُم فيها خٰلِدونَ

English-YusufAli translation______________________________

They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: \"Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members.\" Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein.

And the fact that "thousands of Muslims" mourned for him and laid down flowers..........shows how far they've come in demoralising and domesticating us.......

verse 84 of chapter 9. التوبة in the Holy Quran
وَلا تُصَلِّ عَلىٰ أَحَدٍ مِنهُم ماتَ أَبَدًا وَلا تَقُم عَلىٰ قَبرِهِ ۖ إِنَّهُم كَفَروا بِاللَّهِ وَرَسولِهِ وَماتوا وَهُم فٰسِقونَ

English-YusufAli translation______________________________

Nor do thou ever pray for any of them that dies, nor stand at his grave; for they rejected Allah and His Messenger, and died in a state of perverse rebellion.

I recall the recent empathy of the British media with the cannibal who dismembered a Syrian soldier and ate his lungs, so let them not be too "shocked"

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...s-8617828.html

Were the crimes and rapes committed by British soldiers mentioned in the contest of the reports as can be seen in the above?

Those men were not recruited by al Qaeda, but by the crimes of western governments around the globe, though there are indications that the western governments wanted to recruit them too.....

[Jedi_Mindset]

I smell something fishy, line up the dots and you will know why. Some people will probably understand me.

[Abu Zainab]

I smell something fishy, line up the dots and you will know why. Some people will probably understand me.

And it's a very rotten fish I tell you.

May Allaah :swt: help us all and give us sabr to go through all this injustice.

[GuestFellow]

A 75 year old elderly Muslim Man was taking his usual route home after praying at his local Mosque with the aid of his walking stick. It was just a few yards away from his home when cowardly terrorists struck in cold blood from behind.

The attack on this dear old man, was so sick, vicious and barbaric, that the victim didn't even have a chance to defend himself (no defensive wounds were found). The blows were struck with such violence they penetrated to the front of his body.



http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...mosque.html?fb


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/ma...tivated-police

Don't remind me. Gives me the chills just thinking about it.

[Jedi_Mindset]

People can talk about the killing of the soldiers all they want, but here i didnt even hear about the murder of the muslim until this topic got posted. It recieved no international coverage nor attention, only locally while this attack was equally gruesome.

[GuestFellow]

It was on the BBC. Just wasn't repeated like crazy.

[Jedi_Mindset]

It was on the BBC. Just wasn't repeated like crazy.

But it wasnt reported outside of UK, and when this happens, bam whole international media jumps on it.

[Mustafa2012]

Please delete this

[Mustafa2012]

People can talk about the killing of the soldiers all they want, but here i didnt even hear about the murder of the muslim until this topic got posted. It recieved no international coverage nor attention, only locally while this attack was equally gruesome.

It's called a media blackout.

Muslim Asians are not worthy enough to be given as much coverage as white Christians.

Maybe only Muslims are capable of terrorism or savagery?

Or maybe it will just show the reality of the racists among them? That they are just as bad if not worse than the men who murdered Lee Rigby.

Maybe that's why they don't want to give it as much coverage.

Because if they do, the world will realize how wonderful the Britain really is.

[GuestFellow]

^ How ironic you brought colour into this.

When a white person converts to Islam, there is huge publicity. However when a black person converts to Islam, not much attention is given.

Off topic I know but your post brought a racial element to this topic.

I think white people just happen to receive more attention than compared to other ethnic groups.

[glo]

People can talk about the killing of the soldiers all they want, but here i didnt even hear about the murder of the muslim until this topic got posted. It recieved no international coverage nor attention, only locally while this attack was equally gruesome.

Did you see the list of papers where the murder of the Muslim pensioner Mohammed Saleem was reported? Before the murder of Lee Rigby even took place?
If not, here it the post:
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...ml#post1584267

[Mustafa2012]

^ How ironic you brought colour into this.

When a white person converts to Islam, there is huge publicity. However when a black person converts to Islam, not much attention is given.

Off topic I know but your post brought a racial element to this topic.

I think white people just happen to receive more attention than compared to other ethnic groups.

Racism is as rampant as ever, despite their claims and "policies" on discrimination.

This case is a prime example of race is an important factor in how much media coverage a person gets nowadays.

If you mean that when a white person converts to Islam they receive more attention in the media than blacks then yes I agree with you on that.

Since they control most of the media, I think they give themselves more attention rather than just attracting more attention naturally.

P.S. Just in case anyone thinks my comments are racist, let me state that, that is not what is intended here, nor am I a racist. I am just commenting on what I have observed and experienced personally many times in many different situations.

[GuestFellow]

Not saying your racist. Just saying white converts receive more attention.

[glo]

Here is the response in my own town, after an arson attack was carried out against one of our Islamic Centres:

A FAITH council chief will not be swayed from his plans to ‘build a climate of mutual trust’ between different communities following an attack on a mosque in X.

Council of Faiths chairman R.W., 54, said the group is all in favour of toleration and understanding.

The dad-of-two from X, who is a senior pastor at New Life church, said: “We stand together with all the other faith groups. We really want to support and encourage each other.

He has been in touch with the Islamic Centre to offer support.

He also said the council “utterly deplores the heinous actions of those responsible for the murder of a serving member of Her Majesty’s Armed Forces in London and the attack on the mosque on Thursday.
The faith community is united in its prayers."

One of the comments to the article reads:

I have been privileged to have invited several times to attend Friday prayers and lunch with local elders at the mosque. I have always been made most welcome and been afforded warm hospitality. Because worshipers at the mosque come from many parts of the world much of the service - apart from prayers and readings from the Koran – is in English. All the ‘sermons’ I have heard have been positive, motivating and encouraging people to make the most of their talents, do the best they can for their families and communities: very similar in content to the sermon you would get in a Christian church.

I find it deplorable that a whole faith group should treated in this cowardly way because of the despicable actions of two people ‘claiming’ to be acting in the name of Islam. The vast majority of Muslims have been as shocked as anyone else by the crime carried out in London.

I hope that members of the mosque will not regard all white English people as ignorant bigots after this incident – and appreciate that this act too was carried out by members of a small minority within the wider community.

Amen! :statisfie

[Jedi_Mindset]

Did you see the list of papers where the murder of the Muslim pensioner Mohammed Saleem was reported? Before the murder of Lee Rigby even took place?
If not, here it the post:
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...ml#post1584267

Give me the source of a news outlet outside of the UK.

[glo]

Give me the source of a news outlet outside of the UK.

Probably more tricky ... especially since Muhammed Saleem seems to be a fairly common name in other parts of the world.

To save me the trouble, we can safely assume that the international coverage for Lee Rigby's killing was much greater than the killing of Mr Saleem.

But the poster which depicts both victims has hit the social media, so the message it out there.

At Christmas Alan Greaves, 68, of High Green, Sheffield, died after sustaining severe head injuries while walking to the midnight church service.
Do you think his story made the international headlines?
The media is picky and some stories just aren't juicy enough - no matter how tragic!

I guess what I am trying to convey is that it is not true that the world doesn't care about Muslims or doesn't bother reporting about them.
It is not always about Muslims being hated, persecuted and ignored ...
Peace, brother :)

[observer]

Give me the source of a news outlet outside of the UK.

Why would it be reported outside the UK? It's one murder, one of many murders that happen in the UK every week. This particular murder has actually had
more coverage than most because of its circumstances.

I don't get why "Man killed in Birmingham" would be news in other countries?

I also think that things are getting ridiculous - the soldier and this man's murders are being used for political purposes and that's wrong and disgusting. Let the families grieve, they don't need this whole circus as well.

[Jedi_Mindset]

Why would it be reported outside the UK? It's one murder, one of many murders that happen in the UK every week. This particular murder has actually had
more coverage than most because of its circumstances.

I don't get why "Man killed in Birmingham" would be news in other countries?

I also think that things are getting ridiculous - the soldier and this man's murders are being used for political purposes and that's wrong and disgusting. Let the families grieve, they don't need this whole circus as well.

Because this murder was equally gruesome when someone gets hacked in his chest with a machete. And the murder against the muslim man was also for political reasons.

[observer]

Because this murder was equally gruesome when someone gets hacked in his chest with a machete. And the murder against the muslim man was also for political reasons.

What were the political reasons? Given that they haven't found the killer yet?

[Independent]

And the murder against the muslim man was also for political reasons.

How do you know this? From all the reports I have seen, they don't know who killed him, or why. It may or may not be racist. It may or may not be religiously motivated. There could be a personal reason we don't know about. Nobody knows.

[جوري]

How do you know this?

I suppose the same way you knew the Chechen boys (who had never seen the inside of a courtroom) were guilty of ''terrorism'' via trial by media!

best,

[observer]

I suppose the same way you knew the Chechen boys (who have never seen the inside of a courtroom) were guilty of terrorism via trial by media!

best,

So what were the political reasons of this murder?

[جوري]

So what were the political reasons of this murder?

What were their political reasons?

[observer]

What were their political reasons?

I don't know, there's been no trial yet.

[جوري]

I don't know, there's been no trial yet.

Indeed.. perhaps it wasn't your battle to fight but the one who had previously wowed us with a 20+ page declaration of the guilt of the two men one of whom was dead at the scene as if to silence him and the only claim to guilt is a man who should have been comatose of his injuries not picking folks from line up?
I only point it out so when we question credibility and intent next he wouldn't feel so victimized and run to the mods for help!

best,

[Independent]

I suppose the same way you knew the Chechen boys (who had never seen the inside of a courtroom) were guilty of ''terrorism'' via trial by media!

Obviously, it's reasonable to speculate about the motives of the Chechen bombers (because we know who they are and they told us their motives themselves) versus the murderer of Mr Saleem (because we don't know who did it, so anything we say is entirely speculative).

Please don't derail yet another thread with an irrelevant debate about Boston.

[جوري]

Obviously, it's reasonable to speculate about the motives of the Chechen bombers (because we know who they are and they told us their motives themselves) versus the murderer of Mr Saleem (because we don't know who did it, so anything we say is entirely speculative).

Please don't derail yet another thread with an irrelevant debate about Boston.

Nope there's nothing reasonable about your speculations, they didn't tell us their motives- I have never heard them speak in fact. One of them was silenced right there and then.. All you've done is conjecture based on the testimony of a phony and then you perpetuate your rumor half way around the globe. So please spare us the charade, I don't understand how you have the galls to show your face in here asking questions which you so obviously exempt yourself from answering.
You've NO CREDIBILITY, none whatsoever!
I am not derailing threads btw just exposing you for the members, if they don't already know what you're all about!

best,

[Independent]

they didn't tell us their motives- I have never heard them speak in fact.

Dzhokar did talk in hospital and there are any number of other indications to his influences and interests. (I can't help it if you choose not to believe any of them - either way, there is enough evidence to speculate with.) Whereas with Mr Saleem, the only thing that makes the killing seem out of the ordinary is that the murderer did not take his wallet (therefore suggesting it wasn't a mugging that went wrong). We don't even know for sure if his assailant was white, or even if he was a Muslim too. Maybe we will find this out soon - but today, no.

[جوري]

Dzhokar did talk in hospital .

Really shot in the throat and can talk and all? You're a funny guy, but I enjoy see you squirm and tighten the noose around your neck with each post.
Quit the padding and cut the crap!

best,

[Independent]

Really shot in the throat and can talk and all? You're a funny guy, but I enjoy see you squirm and tighten the noose around your neck with each post

Like I said, you are derailing this thread with tedious conspiracy theories you have already rehearsed again, and again, and again in previous threads.

[جوري]

tedious is what you are- and fiction is what you dish out yes!


best,

[GodIsAll]

No one "knows" squat about either case.
We are all fed what the powers that want us to believe or to interpret. I don't trust any media source any more...from any perspective. They all have agendas. We are all subjected to immense psychological propaganda machines.

"Freedom of The Press", yeah, right.

Ah, I love you all, I really do...I want so badly for us to have peace, to have the truth, and to make decisions made on what we are actually supposed to do by divine direction.

[Ali Mujahidin]

Let's get back on topic.

Look at this from the positive angle. If I am not mistaken (I am not a Muslim scholar) Islam teaches us to see the good in everything that happens to us. So what good can we learn from what happened in Woolwich? Here are a couple of good things which I can see:

1. It's high time for the Muslim community to take pro-active action and not just send out 'totally condemn' announcements after things have happened. I believe, since Islam is being attacked in cyber space, then cyber space is a very good place to start. Not by attacking other people but by loudly and clearly stating the truth from the Islamic viewpoint whenever and wherever a lie about Islam is being published in cyber space. The way I see it, there is no such thing as the silent majority. When you see something that is wrong and you keep quiet about it, you are actually giving support to the very thing that is wrong.

2. I am not exactly sure about how our Muslim brethen live in the UK but I have an inkling that, if they live like the Muslims I have met here, they are be living in some kind of casual isolation from the rest of the general populace. Not strictly segregated from non-Muslims but perhaps having as little as possible to do with non-Muslims. I think this is a good time to start thinking about how the Holy Prophet and his Companions lived. Did they live in isolation or did they live and interact with the non-Muslims of their time? I believe it is time for us who love Islam and make a point to live like Muslims to take a outreach-like approach with the non-Muslims. Let us interact with the non-Muslims and share the truth, which is that we are Muslims and also human beings at the same time, not some kind of green-skinned aliens under our Muslim attire.

WalLahu aklam.

[GuestFellow]

Are Muslims supposed to condemn every single bad thing other Muslims do? That's the impression I'm getting. If that's the case then that's just annoying.

[glo]

Are Muslims supposed to condemn every single bad thing other Muslims do? That's the impression I'm getting. If that's the case then that's just annoying.

I think the same thing applies in reverse:
Are non-Muslims supposed to condemn every single bad thing other non-Muslims do? If that's the case then that's just annoying.

You are right, it probably isn't possible to do that. And it is annoying. And it takes hard ongoing effort.
But it is not right to speak out against any wrong-doing, when we become aware of it?

We can only be held accountable for our own actions - but if and how we respond to the wrong-doing of others is part of our actions too. Do we ignore it? Do we judge? Do we try to do something about it?

I guess all those are things we will one day be judged on ourselves - by somebody greater and wiser than us!

[Ali Mujahidin]

Are Muslims supposed to condemn every single bad thing other Muslims do? That's the impression I'm getting. If that's the case then that's just annoying.

No idea really. I am not a Muslim scholar so I can only give my own personal perception of what you asked.

I have heard many times that a Muslim does not expose the shameful things about his fellow Muslim (I think it's called aib) in the hope that Allah will not expose his own shameful things in akhirah. I suppose this would cover simple personal things like, maybe, a wart on the posterior.

However if it's something blatantly against the teachings of Islam and you point it out with the sincere intention that it would be of benefit to everyone concerned, then I think it's allowed. Like, for example, if you see a man who claims to be a Muslim ranting about how it is the duty of every Muslim to kill every single kafir they meet, then I would say it's more than appropriate to stand up and speak up and say in loud and clear terms that Islam does not teach such a thing. The issue is not about condemning the ranting man. It's about correcting a wrong when you see one. I am taught that correcting a wrong is mandatory upon every Muslim.

WalLahu aklam.

[GuestFellow]

I think the same thing applies in reverse:
Are non-Muslims supposed to condemn every single bad thing other non-Muslims do? If that's the case then that's just annoying.

No. That's just dumb.

[QUOTE]

But it is not right to speak out against any wrong-doing, when we become aware of it?

I don't care what other people think is right/wrong. I'm too busy with my own life.

We can only be held accountable for our own actions - but if and how we respond to the wrong-doing of others is part of our actions too. Do we ignore it? Do we judge? Do we try to do something about it?

If I see something bad happen I will call the police and tell them to sort it out.

All the condemning backqwas has given me a headache.

[Ali Mujahidin]

If I see something bad happen I will call the police and tell them to sort it out.

If only it's always that simple. There are so many things which are bad which are totally out of the jurisdiction of the police. For example, if you see a girl wearing very sexy clothes and speaking suggestively to men, encouraging them to fornicate with her, how do you think calling the police will solve the problem?

[Taabuu]

Have you any evidence that this dead soldier has NOT killed anyone ?:p:p

Besides, all soldiers that went to Afghanistan have blood on their hands, directly or indirectly.

[Taabuu]

Are Muslims supposed to condemn every single bad thing other Muslims do? That's the impression I'm getting. If that's the case then that's just annoying.

When a White British kills a black person , it is called self defense.
When a black kills a whity is called terrorism.
A typical ignorant British mentality of judging others.

[GuestFellow]

If only it's always that simple. There are so many things which are bad which are totally out of the jurisdiction of the police. For example, if you see a girl wearing very sexy clothes and speaking suggestively to men, encouraging them to fornicate with her, how do you think calling the police will solve the problem?

:sl:

They would only get involved if the man wanted to be left alone. This would be sexual harassment but I doubt it will be taken seriously.

Have you any evidence that this dead soldier has NOT killed anyone ?:p:p

Besides, all soldiers that went to Afghanistan have blood on their hands, directly or indirectly.

Not all soldiers actually fight I think. However they are part of the problem. Without soldiers there would be no occupation/wars.

[Ali Mujahidin]

Not all soldiers actually fight I think. However they are part of the problem. Without soldiers there would be no occupation/wars.

Come now, let's not condemn the soldiers too quickly. Their duty is just to do and die. Look to their masters for the root of the problem.

[GuestFellow]

Come now, let's not condemn the soldiers too quickly. Their duty is just to do and die. Look to their masters for the root of the problem.

:wa:

The problem is that soldiers are part of this war/occupation. Yes it is politicians that start these wars but it's the soldiers/military that execute the plan. They are responsible but to a certain extent. You cannot separate these two issues...

[Karl]

:wa:

The problem is that soldiers are part of this war/occupation. Yes it is politicians that start these wars but it's the soldiers/military that execute the plan. They are responsible but to a certain extent. You cannot separate these two issues...

I suppose the attack has done it's job. If you are a British soldier attacking Muslims over seas you are not safe at home. It's kind of like the IRA way. Maybe young men will think twice about signing up to fight these Zionist wars. British soldiers should protect Britain NOT get involved in Zionist aggressions against Muslims. If they want to do that dirty work they should go as mercenaries like Blackwater, Black ops etc and sell their souls for a bucket of cash.

[GodIsAll]

I agree, thank you.
Militaries are unfortunately necessary. The people calling the shots and using their country's military as their personal henchmen for their personal profit need to called out.

[GodIsAll]

I'd love to believe they'd not volunteer for the military for the sole reason that citizens are realizing that the governments maneuvering these soldiers are not moral or to be trusted.

My son has expressed an interest in the military. I told him it is a noble thing to protect and serve; however, it is only noble to volunteer to soldier for a moral and decent government (if any still exist).

I've often wondered how correlated the crash of the American economy was with the feds need for more soldiers. With fewer job opportunities, the military often appears to be the only option out there for some.

[islamica]

Come now, let's not condemn the soldiers too quickly. Their duty is just to do and die. Look to their masters for the root of the problem.

Soldiers and their masters need to be condemned. Solider are not innocent. Unless you think these are innocent?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...er-family.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/0...n_3356200.html



and many many more such barbaric animals!

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

Britain's wars fuel terror. Denying it only feeds Islamophobia

The reason cited by the alleged Woolwich killers – the role of British troops in Afghanistan, Iraq and the war on terror – has been mostly brushed aside as unseemly to discuss.

Eight years on, nothing has been learned. In the week since a British soldier was horrifically stabbed to death by London jihadists on the streets of Woolwich, it's July 2005 all over again.
David Cameron immediately rushed to set up a task force and vowed to ban "hate clerics". Now the home secretary wants to outlaw "nonviolent extremist" organisations, censor broadcasters and websites and revive plans to put the whole country's phone and web records under surveillance.

"Kneejerk" barely does it justice. As for the impact on Muslims, the backlash has if anything been worse than in 2005, when 52 Londoners were killed by suicide bombers.
As the police and a BBC reporter described the alleged killers as of "Muslim appearance" (in other words, non-white), Islamophobic attacks spiked across the country. In the first five days 10 mosques were attacked, culminating in a triple petrol bombing in Grimsby.

As politicians and the media congratulated themselves that Britain was "calmly carrying on as usual", it won't have felt like that to the Muslim woman who had her veil ripped off and was knocked unconscious in Bolton. Nor, presumably, to the family of 75-year-old Mohammed Saleem, stabbed to death in Birmingham in what had all the hallmarks of an Islamophobic attack last month – or, for that matter, the nearly two-thirds of the population who think there will be a "clash of civilisations" between white Britons and Muslims, up 9% since the Woolwich atrocity.

One key change since 2005 is the rise of the violently anti-Muslim English Defence League, given a new lease of life by Woolwich. More than 40% of Islamophobic incidents recorded by the Muslim organisation Faith Matters last year were linked to the EDL or other far-right groups. "It makes me feel I don't belong here", one Muslim community leader quotes his teenage son as telling him this week.

But almost nobody in public life mentions the war. The reason cited by the alleged Woolwich killers – the role of British troops in Afghanistan, Iraq and the war on terror – has been mostly brushed aside as unseemly to discuss. Echoing his predecessors, the prime minister insisted the Woolwich killing was "an attack on the British way of life". London mayor Boris Johnson declared there could be "no question" of blaming British foreign policy or "what Britishtroops do in operations abroad".

Instead, the problem is once again said to be "Islamism", regardless of the string of democratic Islamist governments elected from Turkey to Tunisia. Or the focus is on the "mistakes" of MI5, as if any amount of spooking could detect the determination of an enraged takfiri killer to exact revenge with kitchen knives and meat cleavers. Whatever the focus, even to mention the western wars that drive these attacks is deemed to justify them.

That is, of course, absurd. Targeting a soldier who fought in Afghanistan might not be terrorism in the sense of an indiscriminate attack on civilians. But the random butchery of an unarmed man far from the conflict by disconnected individuals who have nonviolent political alternatives is clearly unjustifiable in any significant religious or political tradition.

The fact that the US declared the war on terror to be a war without national borders and routinely targets unarmed or unidentified victims has fatally blurred those boundaries. The grisly, intimate killing of Lee Rigby was the absolute antithesis of high technology drone attacks. But both embody the degradation of the human spirit.

There can be no surprise, however, that such attacks take place. It's not just opponents of the war on terror who predicted from the start that it would fuel terrorism not fight it. The intelligence services on both sides of the Atlantic did the same.The perpetrators of one attack after another, from London 2005 to Boston 2013, say they're carrying them out in retaliation for the vastly larger scale US and British killing in the Muslim world.

It's true that all kinds of personal factors and experiences help create the mentality to carry out such attacks. But as Abdul Haqq Baker – head of the south London "counter-radicalisation" outfit Street – puts it, the tipping point that has turned people to violence has been shown again and again to be episodes in the war on terror.

There is already some evidence that torture of one of the Woolwich suspects in Kenya – after which MI5 tried to recruit him – may have been such a catalyst. Azad Ali, a Muslim community activist who has advised the Metropolitan police, says there has been a pattern of official abuse of British Muslim activists in Arab countries, apparently using British-supplied intelligence, who are then pressed to work for the British security services when they return home.

What is indisputable is that there were no jihadist attacks in Britain before 9/11, itself claimed as a response to US support for Arab dictatorships, Israeli occupation and murderous sanctions on Iraq. Wars supposedly fought to keep Britain safe have been shown to do the exact opposite.

Given the bloodshed, torture, mass incarceration and destruction that US-British occupation has inflicted on Afghanistan and Iraq, and the civilian slaughter inflicted in the drone war from Pakistan to Yemen, the only surprise is that there haven't been more terror attacks.

Three years ago WikiLeaks gave a glimpse of the routine killing of Afghan civilians by British troops – as did the jailing for 18 months of a grenadier guardsman for stabbing an Afghan boy who asked him for chocolate. Now Britain is preparing to supply weapons directly to the Islamist-dominated rebels in Syria. But at home ministers want to use their "Prevent strategy" to freeze out still further nonviolent Islamist groups that have been most effective at isolating those drawn to violence.

Denial of the role of US-British wars, occupations and interventions in the Muslim world in fuelling terror attacks at home helps to get politicians off the hook. But it also plays into the hands of those blaming multiculturalism and migration, feeding racism and Islamophobia in the process. The wars should be ended because they are wrong and a failure – but also because they fuel terrorism and divide communities.

Those who carried out last week's killing are of course responsible for what they did. But those who have sent British troops to wage war in the Arab and Muslim world for more than a decade must share culpability.

http://stopwar.org.uk/index.php/unit...s-islamophobia

[سيف الله]

Salaam

More advise on how to respond.

[glo]

I like what he says about British foreign policy. Funnily enough, many non-Muslims are highly critical of the foreign policies of the government too.

Perhaps a question would be what can Muslims AND non-Muslims do about it? Work for change together. Rather than letting us be divided into Muslims and non-Muslims, should we not stand together as people who want to see change?

[جوري]

I thought this was an excellent article on the matter and in fact I posted it separately under general:

http://www.islam21c.com/politics/104...236d-248169681

[GuestFellow]

I think it is best to allow things to run its course. Let's see what happens. Then figure out what to do next.

[GodIsAll]

Nice article. It makes a lot of sense.
Thank you for sharing.

[Karl]

I'd love to believe they'd not volunteer for the military for the sole reason that citizens are realizing that the governments maneuvering these soldiers are not moral or to be trusted.

My son has expressed an interest in the military. I told him it is a noble thing to protect and serve; however, it is only noble to volunteer to soldier for a moral and decent government (if any still exist).

I've often wondered how correlated the crash of the American economy was with the feds need for more soldiers. With fewer job opportunities, the military often appears to be the only option out there for some.

Does your son like killing animals? Have an evil streak? Hard and heartless? If the answer is yes then he will make a good soldier. Good natured people tend to have all sorts of mental problems after the horrors of battle.

[GodIsAll]

He'd be a horrible soldier, truth be told. I wouldn't share that with him solely to avoid the possible installation of him trying to prove me wrong in the end.

All bias aside, he is a young man who adores everyone he gets to know.

I would not want to see him on that path, especially for a government that has proven consistently over the past several decades that their military decision and policy are ...less than noble.

I know what you're saying about evil, too. I have known many suckered into this whole "Defend us from Al-Quada, Saddam Threat" scheme. Good people who live with relentless guilt and horror.

Infinitely worse is the horror experienced by those thousands overseas who wanted nothing but to go about their daily lives.

I loathe the actions of people who kill any innocents in the name of their cause. Our "elected" officials (I have my doubts votes are even counted) need to reflect on why these people are so POed. All involved are guilty in horrid action. Admitting it and improving as a nation would make us greater, not less so.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

More analysis

The Politics of Condemnation – Blaming Muslims deflect from others

In the immediate aftermath of the killing in Woolwich on 22nd May 2013, the word ‘condemn’ was heard many times.

Muslim organisations, Imams, speakers and others condemned the act outright, before all the facts had even come in. Some made bizarre generic statements, which did not entirely make sense, like for example “these people are not from our community”. Another strangely declared opposition to terrorism affecting Japan, as well as that occurring in London. I have little doubt that those who spoke out were both shocked by the killing and were genuinely of the view that Islam did not sanction such an attack.

But the question is: Is it possible to condemn too much?

Even some non-Muslim observers commented that there was problem with the extent of the rhetoric of condemnation from Muslims. It seemed as if the Muslim’s condemning had a guilty conscience – almost as if they were protesting their innocence too much. It can perhaps be explained out of fear of how Muslims would be perceived by the wider public.

Some was by the ‘usual suspects’ – the ‘rent-a-quote’ brigade of secularists, who welcome a submissive and silenced Muslim community.

But it was clear the Western media was looking for a loud condemnation from the Muslim community – to such an extent that a Muslim is unable to comment on any related issue unless he or she prefaces a comment by words of condemnation.

Whilst speech may be free for others in Britain, it seems a Muslim needs to buy an entry ticket. Condemnation can go to excess in many ways. In the USA, after the Boston Bombing, the Muslim reaction became so exaggerated, for some prominent Imams it was not sufficient to express sympathy with the victims and say that Islam forbids such an act. They went so far that they did not want to bury one of the alleged bombers in a Muslim cemetery.

What possible harm could there be by condemning too much?

Several problems spring to mind:

The effective acceptance of collective guilt by Muslim ‘leaders’ shifts the blame of responsibility from the attacker and the thing that drove him – i.e. anger about foreign policy – to the whole Muslim community.

To condemn one death to this extent can be seen to diminish the value of the lives of thousands killed in other circumstances – for example by drone aircraft – whose killing receives little public condemnation.

If the problem is seen to lie with the Muslim community, the policies to deal with the problem will target the whole community.

Why should another Muslim expect to be grilled on something that he or she did not do? When journalists keep asking if Muslims will condemn, Muslim looks guilty, as if he has something to answer.

We need to be aware that the media posing a question can be a clever way of making an accusation against Muslims, so fuelling Islamophobia. ‘Is Abdul a danger?’ ‘Does Hussain pose a threat?’ ‘Are they a fifth column?’

The Muslim community has become a punch bag for the policies of politicians who send troops to far off lands, to kill and be killed, for no reason of national security whatsoever. The media completely ignores the politicians who send the soldiers on immoral campaigns, giving an easy ride when they take their seats in the TV studios – whilst at the same time, grilling Muslims in a climate such as this.

Rather than humiliating ministers who send other peoples’ children – rarely their own – to kill and be killed, they try to humiliate the Muslim community.

Some from our community have become like ‘battered wives’ or people who have been relentlessly bullied – once you lose self-esteem, and accept the abuse relationship the bully will step-up their pressure. There’s a lesson for all of us in how we respond to this sort of episode, and the unforeseen consequences of overreacting – and a necessity to understand and expose these belligerent practices.

http://www.hizb.org.uk/current-affairs/the-politics-of-condemnation-blaming-muslims-deflect-from-others

[Mustafa2012]

:wa:

Bro why do you keep posting articles from a banned organization ^ that is known to have serious problems with their Aqeedah and methodology?

Muslims should be blamed when Muslims are in the wrong and are causing problems for the majority of other Muslims who don't agree with certain actions which have no basis in Islam.

[GuestFellow]

:wa:

Bro why do you keep posting articles from a banned organization ^ that is known to have serious problems with their Aqeedah and methodology?

Muslims should be blamed when Muslims are in the wrong and are causing problems for the majority of other Muslims who don't agree with certain actions which have no basis in Islam.

:wa:

He may not know that is is a banned organisation. He probably does not know that they have serious problems with their Aqeedah and methology. He probably agrees with their Aqeedah and methology. I will wait to see how Junon responds.

However, there is nothing with the article itself that I disagree with.

[Karl]

I suppose they may be frightened and sucking up to the masses. The government could force the Muslims to leave the country. As the Queen is "Defender of the Faith" which is Protestant and if they feel Islam is a threat to them. It is possible as tensions grow that all non Whites could be seen as a threat, a little Crusade could happen in Britain. So the Imams are trying to appease the situation and not fire up a civil war which the murderers want to happen.

[Mustafa2012]

:wa:

He may not know that is is a banned organisation. He probably does not know that they have serious problems with their Aqeedah and methology. He probably agrees with their Aqeedah and methology. I will wait to see how Junon responds.

However, there is nothing with the article itself that I disagree with.

I seriously doubt it.

Even the video is of a guy who speaks on behalf of that organization.

He has also posted other articles from this same organization on this thread a few pages back.

The article is about diverting attention but yet the organization seem to be using this to divert attention away from extremism.

[Mustafa2012]

I suppose they may be frightened and sucking up to the masses. The government could force the Muslims to leave the country. As the Queen is "Defender of the Faith" which is Protestant and if they feel Islam is a threat to them. It is possible as tensions grow that all non Whites could be seen as a threat, a little Crusade could happen in Britain. So the Imams are trying to appease the situation and not fire up a civil war which the murderers want to happen.

No one is sucking up to anyone. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it.

The government could do what you suggest but Muslims as a whole have been cleared of the recent crime as The Prime Minister and Mayor of London have both acknowledged that the recent attack was done by individuals with an extremely warped and incorrect idea of Islam. This means Muslims will not be leaving the country any time soon insha Allaah.

I don't understand why idiots like the EDL don't believe what their own Prime Minister said.

[GuestFellow]

I seriously doubt it.

Even the video is of a guy who speaks on behalf of that organization.

He has also posted other articles from this same organization on this thread a few pages back.

The article is about diverting attention but yet the organization seem to be using this to divert attention away from extremism.

I see nothing wrong with the article. I'm not well aware of this group Hizb. However, the article appears to be addressing the issue about the recent stabbings.

If your going to make a set of allegations then you should prove it.

[Mustafa2012]

I see nothing wrong with the article. I'm not well aware of this group Hizb. However, the article appears to be addressing the issue about the recent stabbings.

If your going to make a set of allegations then you should prove it.

Ok I will. Let's wait to see what Junon has to say first.

[Karl]

No one is sucking up to anyone. Wrong is wrong, no matter who does it.

The government could do what you suggest but Muslims as a whole have been cleared of the recent crime as The Prime Minister and Mayor of London have both acknowledged that the recent attack was done by individuals with an extremely warped and incorrect idea of Islam. This means Muslims will not be leaving the country any time soon insha Allaah.

I don't understand why idiots like the EDL don't believe what their own Prime Minister said.

True ... but minorities have to tread carefully.

[GuestFellow]

Ok I will. Let's wait to see what Junon has to say first.

Fair enough. I don't know much about this group so I'm eager to see what you guys have to say.

[Jedi_Mindset]

Yes and politicians like this should be banned to:

Tony Blair: ‘There is a problem within Islam’

Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair urged governments to “be honest” and address radical Islamization in a column he posted to the Daily Mail on Sunday.
“There is not a problem with Muslims in general. Most in Britain will be horrified at Lee Rigby’s murder,” he wrote. “But there is a problem within Islam — from the adherents of an ideology which is a strain within Islam.”
“We have to put it on the table and be honest about it. Of course there are Christian extremists and Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu ones. But I am afraid this strain is not the province of a few extremists. It has at its heart a view about religion and about the interaction between religion and politics that is not compatible with pluralistic, liberal, open-minded societies.”
Mr. Blair’s comments come as Prime Minister David Cameron prepares to make a statement about the Woolwich murder Monday afternoon, the Daily Mail reports.
“At the extreme end of the spectrum are terrorists, but the world view goes deeper and wider than it is comfortable for us to admit. So by and large we don’t admit it,” Mr. Blair continued. “The seeds of future fanaticism and terror, possibly even major conflict, are being sown. We have to help sow seeds of reconciliation and peace.”


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...#ixzz2VLffX7fN

[سيف الله]

Salaam

:wa:

Bro why do you keep posting articles from a banned organization ^ that is known to have serious problems with their Aqeedah and methodology?

Muslims should be blamed when Muslims are in the wrong and are causing problems for the majority of other Muslims who don't agree with certain actions which have no basis in Islam.

Salaam

I think you’re in engaging in playing the man rather than the ball. Consider what people are saying rather than who’s saying it. On this topic they are on the ball.

Their analysis of this situation is clear and to the point unlike other Muslim organisations who are too busy pandering to the establishment’s hysterical overreaction to this event. The Muslims who committed this crime are the ones who responsible, not the whole community, if there were organisations condoning it that would be a serious problem but the vast majority of community (including this organisation) didn't.

Banned? I didn't know that, though thinking about it, it’s hardly surprising. An independent voice giving perceptive commentary on British governments actions and intentions for the Muslim community. Can’t have that now can we? Better to have Muslim organisations that are tame and timid and know how to ‘boot lick’ on command. So no wonder (in this case the British government) wants to get rid of them.

Having said that I generally agree with you on Aqeedah and methodology though I’m no expert, I post from various websites, doesn't mean I agree with what they say or their worldview.

Yes and politicians like this should be banned to:

Tony Blair: ‘There is a problem within Islam’

Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair urged governments to “be honest” and address radical Islamization in a column he posted to the Daily Mail on Sunday.

ha ha ha Ha Ha Ha HA HA HA!

The Irony meter, please think of the irony meter!

[Independent]

Yes and politicians like this should be banned to:

Tony Blair: ‘There is a problem within Islam’

May I ask exactly why you don't like this statement? Is it because he says 'within Islam' instead of 'among Muslims' or some equivalent phrase (ie making it clear that is individual Muslims who are at fault, not the religion itself)? If so, I think that's actually exactly what he means to say here.

Or perhaps there is another reason you don't like it?

[Mustafa2012]

Yes and politicians like this should be banned to:

Tony Blair: ‘There is a problem within Islam’


Former British Prime Minister Tony Blair urged governments to “be honest” and address radical Islamization in a column he posted to the Daily Mail on Sunday.
“There is not a problem with Muslims in general. Most in Britain will be horrified at Lee Rigby’s murder,” he wrote. “But there is a problem within Islam — from the adherents of an ideology which is a strain within Islam.”
“We have to put it on the table and be honest about it. Of course there are Christian extremists and Jewish, Buddhist and Hindu ones. But I am afraid this strain is not the province of a few extremists. It has at its heart a view about religion and about the interaction between religion and politics that is not compatible with pluralistic, liberal, open-minded societies.”
Mr. Blair’s comments come as Prime Minister David Cameron prepares to make a statement about the Woolwich murder Monday afternoon, the Daily Mail reports.
“At the extreme end of the spectrum are terrorists, but the world view goes deeper and wider than it is comfortable for us to admit. So by and large we don’t admit it,” Mr. Blair continued. “The seeds of future fanaticism and terror, possibly even major conflict, are being sown. We have to help sow seeds of reconciliation and peace.”


Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/...#ixzz2VLffX7fN

His opinion is worth zero considering the amount of damage he's done in Iraq and other countries.

[GuestFellow]

May I ask exactly why you don't like this statement? Is it because he says 'within Islam' instead of 'among Muslims' or some equivalent phrase (ie making it clear that is individual Muslims who are at fault, not the religion itself)? If so, I think that's actually exactly what he means to say here.

Or perhaps there is another reason you don't like it?

Well there is a difference between Islam and Muslims. Islam is a belief system. Muslims follow that belief system known as Islam. To say there's a problem within Islam is to say there is a problem within the belief system.

The reason I don't like it because politicians time and time again do not want to admit the truth. The reason some Muslims are being violent because they dislike British foreign policy. I mean you actually get some Muslims that say that they are committing a violence acts because they don't like the way Muslims are being treated. STILL you get politicians and mainstream media that ignore this and spout some other backqwas.

Oh I don't like how these people use the term Islam. There is no such thing as Islaminsm or whatever words people use now. So annoying.

[Mustafa2012]

Salaam

Salaam

I think you’re in engaging in playing the man rather than the ball. Consider what people are saying rather than who’s saying it. On this topic they are on the ball.

Their analysis of this situation is clear and to the point unlike other Muslim organisations who are too busy pandering to the establishment’s hysterical overreaction to this event. The Muslims who committed this crime are the ones who responsible, not the whole community, if there were organisations condoning it that would be a serious problem but the vast majority of community (including this organisation) didn't.

Banned? I didn't know that, though thinking about it, it’s hardly surprising. An independent voice giving perceptive commentary on British governments actions and intentions for the Muslim community. Can’t have that now can we? Better to have Muslim organisations that are tame and timid and know how to ‘boot lick’ on command. So no wonder (in this case the British government) wants to get rid of them.

Having said that I generally agree with you on Aqeedah and methodology though I’m no expert, I post from various websites, doesn't mean I agree with what they say or their worldview.

ha ha ha Ha Ha Ha HA HA HA!

The Irony meter, please think of the irony meter!

I'm engaging in playing the banned organization and wondering how can we take what they say seriously. Before I take any advice from an organization I look at their Aqeedah and Methodology. Unfortunately and with all due respect to any good intentions they have, Hizbut Tahrir are incorrect in both.

What contribution have they made to the Da'wah in the U.K? What bridges have they built with local communities?

I find it hard to take their words seriously. Their analysis is not helpful in times like these. Their advice is often defensive.

The reason many Muslim organizations have spoken out against the Woolwich attack is because they need to make it clear that they do not agree with the actions of those two individuals.

Have you ever heard the saying,"Silence is consent"? Well that is what the British assume when we remain silent in these types of fitan.

Maybe you're ok with remaining silent and expecting the locals to read the minds of the Muslim community however silence does not stop innocent Muslim women and men being attacked for a crime they didn't commit or agree with.

Despite what you might think, the majority of British do not know much about Islam. They only know what the Zionist media feeds them. They can easily assume as EDL did, that what those two ignorant men did was what Islam teaches. Unless all the Muslims make it clear that, that is not the case, most of the British will think it is. That's why Muslims have made such an effort to make it clear that there was no justification in Islam for what happened and that they acted totally indendently.

Hizbut Tahrir are banned not because they have an independent voice and are speaking against the government. They are banned because:

1. Firstly - they have an incorrect Aqeedah and methodology.
2. They are not known to be providing any benefit to the U.K. community or helping to build bridges.
3. Instead they are sowing seeds of ignorance and causing problems for Muslims in the U.K

Besides that some of their members don't even pray, don't have even basic knowledge of Islam and still think they can get establish a Khilafah before calling people to Tawheed.

The articles you posted show them taking a very defensive view of the whole situation and they seem to be focusing all the blame on the UK and US Foreign policy.

It may be true that US and UK foreign policy played some part in the motives for the attack however there is no justification or evidence in Islam for killing an un-armed civilian in a land where no war is taking place.

Instead of posting articles from organizations that are clearly ignorant and in no position to be commenting on the recent attacks, it would be be fare more beneficial to learn your Deen. Study the Seerah and learn the correct Aqeedah and learn the Fiqh of interacting and living amongst The People of The Book.

[GuestFellow]

Have you ever heard the saying,"Silence is consent"? Well that is what the British assume when we remain silent in these types of fitan.

:wa:

Time and time again Muslims and related organisations have said Muslims do not support violent acts. BUT some people still think otherwise. These people can get lost. Who cares what they think.

Besides if a women is being raped but is silent because she is too scared to scream for help does that mean she has given consent?

Hizbut Tahrir are banned not because they have an independent voice and are speaking against the government. They are banned because:

1. Firstly - they have an incorrect Aqeedah and methodology.
2. They are not known to be providing any benefit to the U.K. community or helping to build bridges.
3. Instead they are sowing seeds of ignorance and causing problems for Muslims in the U.K

Who exactly banned this group?

[Mustafa2012]

:wa:

Time and time again Muslims and related organisations have said Muslims do not support violent acts. BUT some people still think otherwise. These people can get lost. Who cares what they think.

Besides if a women is being raped but is silent because she is too scared to scream for help does that mean she has given consent?

Who exactly banned this group?

Brother, if you've even been involved in Da'wah of any kind you should know better than to say, "they can get lost".

I don't think the analogy you made is a good one.

It is just the mentality of Western communities that silence equals consent.

Most British have no interest in Islam and believe what the Zionist feed them about Islam. Unless we make a concerted effort to make clear what the correct Islamic opinion on any given topic is, they will assume otherwise.

When innocent Muslim men and women are at risk of attack due to the ignorant actions of a few individuals, we cannot just say things like, "They can get lost" for thinking that there is justification in Islam despite many Muslims denouncing it.

In a situation like this, it is necessary to keep repeating that we disagree with these actions until the UK community understand we really do disagree with it and that there is no justification in Islam for it.

Hizbut Tahrir were banned by the UK government as far as I remember. A number of other Muslim organizations were also not happy with the work they were doing.

[GuestFellow]

Brother, if you've even been involved in Da'wah of any kind you should know better than to say, "they can get lost".

:wa:

Yes it is fine to say once or twice that Muslims do not condone violent acts. However to say it over and over again is taking micky.

I don't think the analogy you made is a good one.

Why?

[Karl]

Tony Blair is a war pig. What's he talking about? Hypocrite! I suppose it's the Zionist way to cause havoc and then cry about any backlash. The guy is a snake.

[Ali Mujahidin]

I don't think there's much benefit in ranting about how non-Muslims misunderstand Islam. That's their problem. If they don't want to understand, nothing we say will make them understand.

What I think we should concentrate on is to overtly demonstrate the truth of Islam. I don't think it's enough for us to just go about our lives as Muslims. We need to speak up and reach out to our neighbors, who are our neighbors regardless of whether they are Muslims or otherwise. It's not much use to make public announcements of condemnation after the attrocities have been committed by some people who claim to be Muslims. It's sort of like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.

One other thing. I am in no position to say with certainty about the status of the two suspects in the Woolwich incident. We are told that they are Muslims. What do we know about them? Do they fulfill the conditions of being Muslims in the first place? Mind you, I am not saying that they are not Muslims. I am just asking how we know that they are Muslims in the first place?

[Abz2000]

Lol, it's amazing how we're focusing on appeasing the kuffar who do their best to defame Islam while forgetting to appease Allah (myself included),

How often have Islamic preachers been labelled "hate preachers" and "extremists" just for taking the pulpit and denouncing the illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan? I remember many occasions, including instances where people have been banned from discussing America and Britain's evil actions in mosque gatherings.
Yet we are expected to come all out in condemnation of the killing of a killer of Muslims?

It may be true that US and UK foreign policy played some part in the motives for the attack however there is no justification or evidence in Islam for killing an un-armed civilian in a land where no war is taking place.

Un-armed civilian? What was anwar awlaki's 15 year old son?
In a land where no war is taking place??? Ever heard of babar Ahmed? Research the brutal attack by police and how they were all let off the hook with a slap on the wrists.
Anyone recall the injured Muslim being machine gunned to death while he lay down in the refuge of a mosque in fallujah? A land where they illegally began a war and starved children to death....


---

It would have made no sense whatsoever if leaders from among bani israil had gone around ranting about extremism due to the actions of some disaffected fighters in response to the murders by pharaoh of all the male children of the believers.
We would probably now have been referring to them as munafiqeen.
God forgave Moses for his angry act/murder of an Egyptian.
But he didn't forgive pharaoh his kufr and murders of thousands of Muslims.

Where is our sense of al Walaa Wal Baraa?

[Abz2000]

Notice the pattern, how tony Blair claims the problem is within Islam, while before or after every operation, these "extremists" clearly state that their actions are due to uk and us foreign policy......
....and not because they converted to Islam and suddenly found a command to "kill all the infadels" in exchange for 72 virgins.


The Stockholm bomber’s family blames England for turning him from a normal boy into a fanatic. Some point to unemployment and social deprivation as the reasons for the extremes found in Luton. But Baskh lays the blame squarely at the doors of the government.

“Before 9/11 we had never had these issues, so all this has developed since 9/11. The government’s foreign policy, that’s what’s sparked all this up, going into Iraq, an illegal war, killing women and children, going into Afghanistan, carpet-bombing indiscriminately,” explains Baskh.

[Mustafa2012]

I don't think there's much benefit in ranting about how non-Muslims misunderstand Islam. That's their problem. If they don't want to understand, nothing we say will make them understand.

What I think we should concentrate on is to overtly demonstrate the truth of Islam. I don't think it's enough for us to just go about our lives as Muslims. We need to speak up and reach out to our neighbors, who are our neighbors regardless of whether they are Muslims or otherwise. It's not much use to make public announcements of condemnation after the attrocities have been committed by some people who claim to be Muslims. It's sort of like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted.

One other thing. I am in no position to say with certainty about the status of the two suspects in the Woolwich incident. We are told that they are Muslims. What do we know about them? Do they fulfill the conditions of being Muslims in the first place? Mind you, I am not saying that they are not Muslims. I am just asking how we know that they are Muslims in the first place?

:salam:

With all due respect I think there is still some benefit in "ranting" about how non-Muslims misunderstand Islam. It's not just their problem. It's also our problem. Look at the way we speak and the way we conduct ourselves. We often give them reason to hate us.

If you read your words carefully, you seem to agree with what you disagree about.

Again with all due respect, before commenting on this issue, you need to have lived in and have a good understanding of the way the locals think. If not, then it's not fair to comment.

[Mustafa2012]

:salam:

Bro Abz2000, with all due respect to what you've said and the evidence you've quoted, I think you have an incorrect understanding the situation and of the verses you've quoted. No scholar or speaker with a balanced understanding of Islam has said what you've said.

We cannot turn the whole world into a war zone where anything goes. We need to distinguish between lands or areas where there is peace and lands where war is taking place and between the average citizen who has no say in foreign policy and leaders.

If we followed your way of thinking, it would result in a lot of problems for Muslims everywhere.

Are you willing to take responsibility for innocent Muslim men and women being attacked and killed everywhere as a result of following your line of thought?

[islamica]

Getting back on topic, the extremists British terrorist strike again!

Burn mosque (House of Allah) to the ground...

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013...#slide=2534163

[Ali Mujahidin]

Again with all due respect, before commenting on this issue, you need to have lived in and have a good understanding of the way the locals think. If not, then it's not fair to comment.

From what you have said, I assume you have lived near Woolwich and have a good understanding of the way the locals there think? Or you have lived in the UK and have a good understanding of the way the locals in the UK think?

I must admit that I live, more or less, on the other side of the planet and I would like to get a better understanding of what is actually going on at ground zero in Woolwich, so to say. Perhaps you can supply the much-needed localized information?

[Abz2000]

We cannot turn the whole world into a war zone where anything goes. We need to distinguish between lands or areas where there is peace and lands where war is taking place and between the average citizen who has no say in foreign policy and leaders.

Salamz brother, you may not have felt the same way if your families or children suffered the same fate as That of the people who's lands were illeally invaded by those dar al harb lands.
Depends on how you look at it really, obviously if you live among kuffar and interact with them on a daily basis, and are regulated by their method, you will naturally see things from a different point of view to someone on the receiving end.
We must bear in mind that living in a land regulated by kuffar leaves permanent scars on the phsyche, I am still suffering withdrawals from kufrism and finding it difficult to kick certain habits due to the last 31 years under her majesty's benevolence.
but one thing we mustn't do is accept our fate as dhimmi's when living under these criminal governments, we have a way we need to adhere to, promote, and fight for when necessary because they are doing their best to take it from us.

The situation at the moment didn't start yesterday, they've been wanting to implement it for years and paused due to think tanks advising them that it would push all the Muslims togethe
Google "contest 2" "uk law" "5 points"

This has full subtitles so you can mute it if u like

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbVpR5xYBos

http://m.guardian.co.uk/politics/200...rategy-muslims



I hope you can see from the signs that you will not live safely as a Muslim practicing his deen for long in the lands of the pharaoh's unless you're willing to compromise to the extent of making your deen unrecognisable, they did it to the Christians and they did it to the Jews, the Muslims are a little more difficult, but they're working on it....

Apologies for the haphazard method of writing, can't see the sentence before on this phone so it's the best I can do without constant scrolling.

Peace

[Jedi_Mindset]

^

True, they want us to keep our deen in ourselves, to just stay in the mosques, not show it et cetera. They dont want to give us dawah, or anything. They are only pleased when we follow their ways of life. But, they can't stop us from doing our islamic duties. lets just give dawah on the streets, and other good deeds. I know we can't escape from the fitnah in these streets, but it shouldnt stop us either from doing our obligations.

[GuestFellow]

:salam:

With all due respect I think there is still some benefit in "ranting" about how non-Muslims misunderstand Islam. It's not just their problem. It's also our problem. Look at the way we speak and the way we conduct ourselves. We often give them reason to hate us.

:wa:

I agree that some Muslims have given some non-Muslims a good reason to hate us. I find it ironic when these particular Muslims complain about non-Muslims misunderstand and hate them but commit acts that make non-Muslims hate them even more. A good example is Anjem Chourdary.

[Ali Mujahidin]

A good example is Anjem Chourdary.

Just curious. What has Anjem said or done that shows that he is talking about Islam?

[GuestFellow]

Just curious. What has Anjem said or done that shows that he is talking about Islam?

:wa:

Anjem is a Muslim that promotes the Sharia. I agree with him on many issues. However, it is the way he presents those issues and his followers are intimidating. He can come across as being rude and his followers are aggressive (one of his followers are known to slap those that disagree with them). He was also involved in burning poppies which many British people find disrespectful.

So in a nutshell he's rude and organises stupid demonstrations. He is one of the reasons why some non-Muslims hate Muslims.

[Abz2000]

I like the fact that he gives a different point of view from what we see regurgitated every day in the lamestream media.
BeIng a lawyer can mean sounding like an a-hole sum times but his arguments often leave them flustered and irritated, I usually find them to be rude and him to be patient- especially when it's fox news.

If kuffar want to hate on people for saying the truth, it's their own issue.

A & B are opposites,
B invades A's house and trashes it and kills his family members,
A complains to society - everyone including the U.N says "we're helpless"
Then A when is frustrated by the injustice and does exactly the same (actually a lot less), even A's family are expected to condemn him????
R u serious???

Maybe empathy is something that will cause the British, french and american people to demand that their government stop it's killing and plundering.
The more silent we are the more they attack us, don't ever dream you'll appease them by condemning your brothers who strive for justice and truth.

[GuestFellow]

BeIng a lawyer can mean sounding like an a-hole sum times

:wa:

He's not a Solicitor anymore. He struck off by the Law Society. So no excuse for him to sound "mean"...

but his arguments often leave them flustered and irritated, I usually find them to be rude and him to be patient- especially when it's fox news.

Oh yes the mainstream media are rude and behave worse.

Maybe empathy is something that will cause the British, french and american people to demand that their government stop it's killing and plundering.
The more silent we are the more they attack us, don't ever dream you'll appease them by condemning your brothers who strive for justice and truth.

Whatever you think of him you have to admit he's doing a terrible job. What is the point of organising huge protests, burning poppies and flags? It has not gotten Muslims in the UK anywhere. Just gives the mainstream media an excuse to complain about how violent those Muslims are.

There are so many Islamic scholars that do a better job than he does. They can put their point across without demonstrations/burning stuff.

[Mustafa2012]

I like the fact that he gives a different point of view from what we see regurgitated every day in the lamestream media.
BeIng a lawyer can mean sounding like an a-hole sum times but his arguments often leave them flustered and irritated, I usually find them to be rude and him to be patient- especially when it's fox news.

If kuffar want to hate on people for saying the truth, it's their own issue.

A & B are opposites,
B invades A's house and trashes it and kills his family members,
A complains to society - everyone including the U.N says "we're helpless"
Then A when is frustrated by the injustice and does exactly the same (actually a lot less), even A's family are expected to condemn him????
R u serious???

Maybe empathy is something that will cause the British, french and american people to demand that their government stop it's killing and plundering.
The more silent we are the more they attack us, don't ever dream you'll appease them by condemning your brothers who strive for justice and truth.

:salam:

You are absolutely right about the way injustice, justice and terrorism is presented in the media. Many would argue that what the UK and US are doing in Muslim countries falls under the definition of "terrorism" yet they call it something else. But calling it something else doesn't change the action.

In terms of innocent taking of lives I'd say 15 innocent lives are far more than 1 british soldier like in the case of the U.S. army general who intentionally shot and burned 15 non combatant afghani men, women and children and the murder of Lee Rigby. The only difference is the motive which we've already established was not justified.

We can see the injustice being committed by the very people who are labelling their victims as "terrorists". We see how they make excuses for their own people like say they did it because they suffered from mental health issues or had a bad childhood etc. when they carry out mass murders even on their own people yet when a Muslim commits a similar crime, it's always an act of terrorism. With Muslims, you never hear them make excuses like they do for their own people.

I know there's a lot of injustice going on in the world but just in case you didn't notice, Muslims as a whole are not in a position of strength right now.

Until we correct our aqeedah, intentions and actions we need to be patient and not stoop to the low levels that we see our oppressors stooping to.

This way the world will be able to clearly see who the real terrorists are and who are being oppressed :ia:

Until we get our strength back as an Ummah, forbidding the evil can be done by the tongue, the pen and the heart.

[Taabuu]

This is the law of physics that every action has equal opposite reaction. It is the universal principle. The unjust everyday annihilation of countless innocent Muslims in Iraq, Afghanistan, Palestine (and also dispossessing them - their home land, destroying their crop, livelihood, homes, schools and houses - strangulating them to a slow and painful death), Pakistan, and Somalia by the American, Israel and US European allies cannot go without creating avenging mentality among the suffering lot. It is natural, even the most peace loving people will tolerate such atrocities for some time but not for so long. Call it terrorism or what ever but know for sure – by discrediting such retaliatory action as – terrorism, you will not be able to stop it. The only way to do so – just by stopping the injustices that you are perpetrating against these hapless people. Let wisdom prevail. Let there be peace in the world - Muslims love that more than any body.

[Taabuu]

What about this US soldier who has killed more than a dozen civilians in a shooting spree in southern Afghanistan.:hmm:

A member of the Kandahar provincial council who visited the site of the shooting in Panjwai district told Al Jazeera that at least 16 civilians were killed when the soldier left his base early on Sunday morning and opened fire.
The Kandahar governor’s office put the number of killed civilians at 15.
“Eleven members of my family are dead. They are all dead,” Haji Samad, an elder from Panjwai district, told the AFP news agency.

Captain Justin Brockhoff, a spokesman for the NATO-led International Security Assistance Force (ISAF), could not confirm any fatalities in the incident.
“This is a horrific incident, and our thoughts are with the families of the affected. Our initial reports indicate multiple civilians – between four and six- are wounded. Those civilians are receiving care at coalition medical facilities,” he told Al Jazeera.
“At this point we do not have an indication – we can not speculate about the individual’s motives.”
Al Jazeera’s Bernard Smith, reporting from Herat, said the soldier entered three houses near the base and opened fire on civilians.
“We are now being told by the police sources that the US soldier left his base at three o clock this morning. It would have been pitch-black wherever he walked,” he said.
Civilian casualties have been a major source of friction between President Hamid Karzai’s government and the NATO forces in Afghanistan.”The soldier went through three separate houses, shooting at people as they slept in their beds. After the soldier shot these people, he turned himself in.”
Anti-American sentiment had already been running high before news of the latest civilian casualties.
“It is frankly disastrous. It is not just a disaster for the people who were murdered and killed in their houses, it is disaster for the country I suspect,” our correspondent said.
Afghan President Hamid Karzai condemned the shooting rampage and labeled the incident as “intentional murders” and demanded an explanation from the United States.
The victims of the shooting spree, which left up to 16 civilians dead, included nine children and three women, Karzai’s office said in a statement.
Anger gripped the nation after US soldiers burned a large number of copies of the Quran, the Muslim holy book, at a NATO base last month, which the alliance said was “inadvertent”.
At least 41 people were killed in protests that followed the burning.
Najeeb Azizi, a Kabul-based Afghan analyst, said the shooting will have deep repercussions on the already tenuous relations with the US.
“It is a very tragic incident in particular because the Afghan and US governments are trying to sign a strategic agreement for a long term,” he said.
“A very bad message the Afghan people are getting – that if US military remains in Afghanistan beyond 2014 and their attitude and behaviour remains the same – of killing innocent civilians- what will be the consequences, and how will the Afghan people respond to it.”

[Taabuu]

An old muslim MAN was killed by a white racist when he was walking home for no reason IN THE UK (the west), no one heard about it, one week later the opposite happens and a white man is killed, country goes up like never before and it's on the front news of every newspaper.


White man's blood is worth a million times more. Also muslims didn't start raging when one of their elderly were killed by a white racist, so why are these scum attacking all muslims because a white person was killed? You'll never see an ethnic minority blaming all white people, but you'll always see it the other way round.

[Independent]

An old muslim MAN was killed by a white racist when he was walking home for no reason IN THE UK (the west), no one heard about it, one week later the opposite happens and a white man is killed, country goes up like never before and it's on the front news of every newspaper.

Are you referring to Mahammad Saleem? As has already been said in this thread, it remains the case that nobody knows who killed him. The killer may be of any race, and of any religion including Islam. It did make the national news but in the absence of any other information (and without the gruesome but spectacular video) it remains an unsolved murder with no political aspect.

Also muslims didn't start raging when one of their elderly were killed by a white racist

We don't know who killed him so that would have been a remarkable reaction. And in fact, many Muslims like yourself are indeed raging about this. Many Muslims now firmly believe that it has actually been confirmed that this was a white racist.

You'll never see an ethnic minority blaming all white people, but you'll always see it the other way round.

That's not true. There are millions of people all round the world who blame 'westerners' (by which they mean white people) for all the evils in the universe.

As for racism in the UK - of course it exists. Do you think other countries are immune? Many countries have zero racism statistics by the simple expedient of never letting in any foreigners. The UK has had one of the most open door policies to immigration of any country in the world. Unlike others, which allow foreign workers but never give them citizenship, many immigrants have been permitted to naturalise completely. So who is the real racist? The country that brings people together and therefore has to deal with the stresses it causes? Or the country that bans immigrants altogether? Excuse the pun, but this is not a black and white issue.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update. This was on 2 days ago.

Its an interview with the leader of the EDL (yeah I know) but it gives a good idea of how they think and what Muslims are up against.

[Born_Believer]

Islamaphobia is definitely on the march and yet many are still in denial that this phenomena even exists...hack my PC dictionary doesn't even recognise the term (agoraphobia comes up as a correction). Having said that, I do believe England and Britain as a whole is far more tolerant of Mulsims and our way of life in comparison to a number of other European countries, namely France, Germany and most of the countries in the eastern bloc.

In the handful of days after the Woolwich attack, over a 150 attacks were carried out against Muslims and our mosques, schools, homes...these were just the cases which were reported. Why are people like Tommy Robinson put on tv or radio? Why is their view allowed to be broadcast to millions on political programmes even though these people are not members of parliament.

It's not the street thugs we need to worry about but those who are smart enough to allow the thugs onto tv or newspapers, the people who give them enough leeway to carry out violence, the people who are in charge of the media and say one thing but do another. There is a network of Islamaphobes which stretches into Parliament and the very governance of this nation who are playing a very clever game.

[observer]

Why are people like Tommy Robinson put on tv or radio? Why is their view allowed to be broadcast to millions on political programmes even though these people are not members of parliament.

I'm glad he's put on TV. The guy's an idiot and every TV appearance shows that. He always faces hostile questioning that shows his lack of substance. The way to show this guy is wrong is to debate with him, hear his view and show it to be wrong. I think the British press has done this very well.

The VAST majority of people in the UK are anti-EDL.

[Born_Believer]

I'm glad he's put on TV. The guy's an idiot and every TV appearance shows that. He always faces hostile questioning that shows his lack of substance. The way to show this guy is wrong is to debate with him, hear his view and show it to be wrong. I think the British press has done this very well.

The VAST majority of people in the UK are anti-EDL.

Yes but there is still a minority who listens to him on tv/radio and actually falls into what he is saying.

But I totally agree with you (for once lol) that the vast majority of people in the UK are anti-EDL.

[observer]

But I totally agree with you (for once lol) that the vast majority of people in the UK are anti-EDL.

Haha - there's always common ground in the world! :D

[Ali Mujahidin]

So in a nutshell he's rude and organises stupid demonstrations

I see. So in another nutshell, he's basically a nut case who shouldn't have been allowed out of his shell or whatever that he's hiding in. Being rude and stupid is not anywhere near to what Islam and dakwah is about. Whenever I see people, who claim to be Muslims, condemning other religions, I am reminded of an occasion where the Holy Prophet said to his companions,

"Don't curse your parents."

Aghast, the companions asked,

"Ya RasululLah, how can we do such a terrible thing as curse our own parents?"

To which the Holy Prophet answered,

"When you curse the parents of other people, it will make them angry and they, in turn, will curse your parents. So by cursing the parents of other people, you are cursing your own parents."

That, of course, is only an approximation of what actually transpired. The gist of the incident is that we are told not to go around condemning other people's religions because our action of condemning other people's religions will cause other people to condemn our religion.

If you are familiar with Arabic, you can look up this hadith in Sahih Bukhari at the reference below:

[Mustafa2012]

:salam:

:alhamd: The killer of Mohammed Saleem, the same man behind a series of bomb attacks appears to have been caught. It took a while but it seems they finally got the guy.

Click Here To Read

What I find strange is that although this man is as "terrorist" as they come and this is a right wing, politically and religiously motivated murder, yet there's no mention of the word "terrorist" or "terrorism" in the article to describe him.

I have not seen this story given front page or peak time coverage (except for the Metro newspaper) although this is just as bad as the murder of Lee Rigby. Not only did this cowardly man stab an innocent grandfather in the back multiple times but he also tried to kill more people with a series of bombs which he planted at mosques to try to spark off a race war. This is one sick man yet notice how he is not labelled a "terrorist".

[Taabuu]

Salaam

Another update. This was on 2 days ago.

Its an interview with the leader of the EDL (yeah I know) but it gives a good idea of how they think and what Muslims are up against.

ISLAMOPHOBIA------ A DOCUMENTARY.
A MUST WATCH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNrL4OnEt4Q

[Independent]

What I find strange is that although this man is as "terrorist" as they come and this is a right wing, politically and religiously motivated murder, yet there's no mention of the word "terrorist" or "terrorism" in the article to describe him.

Nevertheless, Pavlo Lapshyn was investigated by the Anti Terrorist unit and charged under terrorist legislation.

It seems he was acting alone although of course inspired by extreme right wing ideology on the internet and elsewhere. As such there is no wider terrorist agenda of campaign to be discussed. It's particularly bizarre because he had only been in the UK a mere 5 days when he committed the first offence. Barely stepped off the plane.

He was a fan of Timothy McVeigh. His prime motivation seems to have been racist rather than religious - he targeted the mosque because everyone appeared to be non white. He wanted to divide people and spark a race war. His tactics and motivations are therefore similiar to his exact political opponents.

It's an impressive piece of police detective work to hunt him down so quickly as he had zero prior record and was in fact in a successful career.

['Abd-al Latif]

ISLAMOPHOBIA------ A DOCUMENTARY.
A MUST WATCH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNrL4OnEt4Q

:hiding::D

Muslims aren't up against much.

[aamirsaab]

[snip]...This is one sick man yet notice how he is not labelled a "terrorist".

In fairness, he was addressed as a terrorist on the news last night.

[Mustafa2012]

Nevertheless, Pavlo Lapshyn was investigated by the Anti Terrorist unit and charged under terrorist legislation.

It seems he was acting alone although of course inspired by extreme right wing ideology on the internet and elsewhere. As such there is no wider terrorist agenda of campaign to be discussed. It's particularly bizarre because he had only been in the UK a mere 5 days when he committed the first offence. Barely stepped off the plane.

He was a fan of Timothy McVeigh. His prime motivation seems to have been racist rather than religious - he targeted the mosque because everyone appeared to be non white. He wanted to divide people and spark a race war. His tactics and motivations are therefore similiar to his exact political opponents.

It's an impressive piece of police detective work to hunt him down so quickly as he had zero prior record and was in fact in a successful career.

If he was investigated and charged by the Terrorism Unit under the Terrorism Act then why was there little mention of this in the media. Why is this terminology being hidden from the public view?

It doesn't matter whether he was acting alone or with others. The fact remains is that he was planning other attacks and if he wasn't caught, he would have gone on to commit further attacks which could have harmed and killed many innocent people. That according to me is "terrorism", yet the media reserves the word "terrorism" only for attacks carried out by Muslims. That is a type of brainwashing and use of negative associations to incite hatred.

If his aim was to target non whites then why not target colored people of a different religion and race? Why did he target Pakistani Muslims? This part does not make sense.

I thank Allaah that this racist man was caught before he could cause more harm.

[Independent]

If he was investigated and charged by the Terrorism Unit under the Terrorism Act then why was there little mention of this in the media. Why is this terminology being hidden from the public view?

He has been described as a terrorist in some reports, no one is hiding anything. The UK state is a victim of this attack, not in any way a sympathiser.

It doesn't matter whether he was acting alone or with others.

There is no ongoing threat because he was an isolated individual. He does not appear to be part of any terrorist organisation.

That according to me is "terrorism", yet the media reserves the word "terrorism" only for attacks carried out by Muslims

No they don't and they haven't in this case. You have to accept that if a Muslim commits a terrorist act on behalf of Al Qaida or other terrorist network (as did the Tsamaev brothers in the Boston Bombing, for instance), then discussion of Al Qaida is bound to occur in the media accounts and the phrase 'Islamist terrorism' or some substitute will be very frequent.

If his aim was to target non whites then why not target colored people of a different religion? Why did he target Muslims? This part does not make sense.

It's what he said himself. Is he telling the truth? Who knows. It's plausible - a UK mosque would be a place where a large number of non-white people might gather, particularly for someone who doesn't know his way around. The guy is Ukrainian, he was only in the country less than a week. Given a chance maybe he would have planted a bomb in an African Christian church in London next, who can tell?

I thank Allaah that this racist man was caught before he could cause more harm.

I'm with you all the way on this one. What a pointless waste of life - his own as well as his victim's.

[Mustafa2012]

He has been described as a terrorist in some reports, no one is hiding anything. The UK state is a victim of this attack, not in any way a sympathiser.


There is no ongoing threat because he was an isolated individual. He does not appear to be part of any terrorist organisation.


No they don't and they haven't in this case. You have to accept that if a Muslim commits a terrorist act on behalf of Al Qaida or other terrorist network (as did the Tsamaev brothers in the Boston Bombing, for instance), then discussion of Al Qaida is bound to occur in the media accounts and the phrase 'Islamist terrorism' or some substitute will be very frequent.


It's what he said himself. Is he telling the truth? Who knows. It's plausible - a UK mosque would be a place where a large number of non-white people might gather, particularly for someone who doesn't know his way around. The guy is Ukrainian, he was only in the country less than a week. Given a chance maybe he would have planted a bomb in an African Christian church in London next, who can tell?


I'm with you all the way on this one. What a pointless waste of life - his own as well as his victim's.

Whenever a Muslim commits an act of terror it's reported in almost every form of media on the front page with the label "terrorist".

Yet when people like like this guy plant bombs at mosques and have been found with extremist material, they are called Nazi far right extremists but not Nazi Terrorists as they are. Fascism is a type of religion for some due to the extent of time and effort they dedicate to some.

If a Muslim commits an act of terrorism, yes it will be automatically called "Islamic Terrorism" but what I don't understand is why is it when a Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Facist Right Wing Nazi commits an act or terrorism they are not given the label of Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Facist Right Wing Nazi Terrorist.

When Anders Brevik massacred hundreds of his own people because he was unhappy with Muslim immigrants being allowed into his country he was not called a terrorist as the definition rightly fitted but instead shown sympathy and people were swayed by the stories of patriotism that he painted. Instead of getting at least a year for every person he killed he got away with just 20 years. And now he's writing a book which will probably be sold and will make him a very rich man.

Whether Pavlo Lapshyn acted alone or with others, whether it was a one off or ongoing he still carried out acts that were designed to cause terror to larger groups of people. That according to the classical definition of the English language makes him a terrorist. I notice you too are trying very hard to avoid using the word terrorism to describe these latest attacks but try as you may, his actions and intentions which have been reported in the press, clearly match the definition of the word terrorism.

Terrorism is committed every day by people and governments all over the world. Just because they change the labels and call it something else doesn't change the action or the damage that is caused. The real terrorists walk around freely living luxurious lifestyles all paid by taxpayers money while innocent hardworking individuals are made the scapegoats.

BTW There has been no credible evidence presented to date to link the Tsarnev brothers to the Boston Bombings. His brother was shot dead before he could give his side of the story and the other was shot in the throat so he too couldn't talk and give his side of the story. There is plenty of evidence of a cover up of some kind. So I'm surprised you're even quoting a case like that.

I'm sure you're familiar with the saying, "You can fool some of the people some of the time, but you can't fool all the people all of the time."

[Independent]

If a Muslim commits an act of terrorism, yes it will be automatically called "Islamic Terrorism" but what I don't understand is why is it when a Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Facist Right Wing Nazi commits an act or terrorism they are not given the label of Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, Facist Right Wing Nazi Terrorist.

Incorrect, all of them have groupings which have been referred to as terrorist at one time or another. But not all of them are especially active right now.

In the UK, anyone in their thirties or over will associate terrorism with Northern Ireland. In this conflict, one side were referred too as Catholic/Republican terrorists, the other as Protestant/Unionist terrorists. It's absolute nonsense to say that the media avoided the term.

But the Northern Irish problem is over (or at least much reduced). Today, as far as the UK is concerned, Muslim terrorist groups are the principle active threat so they get the most coverage. What's more, unlike most other terrorist groups, many Muslim groups claim to be acting specifically in the name of their religion. You may consider them not 'true' Muslims as a result - but that's what they call themselves so you can hardly blame the media for reporting it.

Does the media go too far and drift towards stereotyping? Yes it does. UK media overhype everything. They want headlines that scream, not whisper.

There was a time in the UK when to be Irish was to be associated with terrorism. But today most English people have an actively positive attitude towards Irish people. My son (who has lived his whole life in Ireland till now) has been welcomed into his new UK school and is popular specifically because he is Irish. That's some turnaround in just a decade.

The negative stereotyping of Muslims will disappear as quickly as that of the Irish, once the underlying cause is removed. And that cause is not the media, but ongoing acts of terrorism.

Instead of getting at least a year for every person he killed he got away with just 20 years

Brevik was convicted of terrorist offences. He was given the maximum sentence under Norwegian law. What else do you expect them to do? Break their own law?

I notice you too are trying very hard to avoid using the word terrorism to describe these latest attacks

No I don't - Lapshyn is a terrorist using terrorist techniques. I hope he's locked away for life.

BTW There has been no credible evidence presented to date to link the Tsarnev brothers to the Boston Bombings

I don't want to get into a debate about this as we're getting into conspiracy territory and it's a bottomless pit. But it's worth mentioning that Ukranian websites are also claiming that Lapshyn has been framed and is innocent.

In fact, this kind of claim is made about every single high profile incident that ever occurs without exception. Maybe this was a conspiracy too? Maybe Lapshyn was framed by Al Qaeda? They've got the means and the motive (and that's more than enough for a good conspiracy).

Do I think it could have been Al Qaeda? Not for one second. And no more do I think that the Tsarnevs are innocent.

Rather than trying to blame the media, or waste time with endless conspiracy theories that allow us to make anyone guilty we feel like, it would be better to concentrate on facing up to reality. There is no point in trying to persuade anyone that Muslims are incapable of terrorist actions when we hear of new incidents in iraq or Pakistan practically every week. The vast majority of terrorism by Muslims kills not westerners, but fellow Muslims in Muslim countries.

Terrorist actions not in any way exclusive to Muslims, but neither are Muslims immune to them. And at this particular point in history, many Muslim groups are in the foreground. That wasn't always the case in the past and it will surely change in the future. But trying to deny it as a media conspiracy will simply prolong and deepen the problem.

Too many people have got the notion that the way to solve this problem is to attack the media. That's what's called 'shooting the messenger' and it seriously isn't working.

[Mustafa2012]

Sorry I haven't been able to reply. Been quite busy over the last few days.

I'll comment on each of your points one by one.

Incorrect, all of them have groupings which have been referred to as terrorist at one time or another. But not all of them are especially active right now.

This may be the case within the classification system of the criminal justice system but terrorist attacks carried out by members of other religious groups are rarely ever labelled Jewish, Christian, Sikh, Hindu, Buddhist terrorist in the media. That's where the problem lies. The media has the power to present information in a mis-leading way which can create a like or dislike for certain groups of their choosing.

In the UK, anyone in their thirties or over will associate terrorism with Northern Ireland. In this conflict, one side were referred too as Catholic/Republican terrorists, the other as Protestant/Unionist terrorists. It's absolute nonsense to say that the media avoided the term.

But the Northern Irish problem is over (or at least much reduced). Today, as far as the UK is concerned, Muslim terrorist groups are the principle active threat so they get the most coverage. What's more, unlike most other terrorist groups, many Muslim groups claim to be acting specifically in the name of their religion. You may consider them not 'true' Muslims as a result - but that's what they call themselves so you can hardly blame the media for reporting it.

Does the media go too far and drift towards stereotyping? Yes it does. UK media overhype everything. They want headlines that scream, not whisper.

There was a time in the UK when to be Irish was to be associated with terrorism. But today most English people have an actively positive attitude towards Irish people. My son (who has lived his whole life in Ireland till now) has been welcomed into his new UK school and is popular specifically because he is Irish. That's some turnaround in just a decade.

The negative stereotyping of Muslims will disappear as quickly as that of the Irish, once the underlying cause is removed. And that cause is not the media, but ongoing acts of terrorism.

As far as the IRA and the media go, I appreciate what you're trying to say and the comparisons you're trying to draw to terrorism committed by ignorant Muslims however I'm not sure if both these types can be compared as one was limited to a certain country whereas the other is global.

Islam as a faith itself is attacked by the media on all fronts all over the world everyday. So how much more will terrorism committed by some ignorant Muslims be addressed? That is the difference.

I do agree that some ignorant Muslims are causing a lot of problems for the rest of the Muslim community as whole. If these idiots stopped giving the media and other organizations excuses to oppress the innocent among us then the world would be a better place but it might be a while the ignorants among us learnt what Islaam is really about.

Brevik was convicted of terrorist offences. He was given the maximum sentence under Norwegian law. What else do you expect them to do? Break their own law?

I expect them to change the law as it is a travesty of justice to give a man who took away 72 lives, just 20 years. This law is a major flaw in the Norwegian justice system.

But it's worth mentioning that Ukranian websites are also claiming that Lapshyn has been framed and is innocent.

In fact, this kind of claim is made about every single high profile incident that ever occurs without exception. Maybe this was a conspiracy too? Maybe Lapshyn was framed by Al Qaeda? They've got the means and the motive (and that's more than enough for a good conspiracy).

Anything's possible these days. It could have been anyone that wants to discredit Muslims and the faith of Islam. And that's probably a lot of people or organizations.

Rather than trying to blame the media, or waste time with endless conspiracy theories that allow us to make anyone guilty we feel like, it would be better to concentrate on facing up to reality. There is no point in trying to persuade anyone that Muslims are incapable of terrorist actions when we hear of new incidents in iraq or Pakistan practically every week. The vast majority of terrorism by Muslims kills not westerners, but fellow Muslims in Muslim countries.

Terrorist actions not in any way exclusive to Muslims, but neither are Muslims immune to them. And at this particular point in history, many Muslim groups are in the foreground. That wasn't always the case in the past and it will surely change in the future. But trying to deny it as a media conspiracy will simply prolong and deepen the problem.

Too many people have got the notion that the way to solve this problem is to attack the media. That's what's called 'shooting the messenger' and it seriously isn't working

I don't blame the media completely nor did I ever deny Muslims are capable of acts of terrorism. I accept fully that there are some Muslim individuals and a no. of groups who have a seriously incorrect understanding of Islaam and the rules of engagement. It's these people and groups that are giving the rest of the Muslim community as bad name and image. This is big shame and it destroys that hard work that many law abiding Muslims do around the world. The problem is that some of the groups that are causing problems are large and have a lot of resources and influence. They are difficult to stop. The only way the average Muslim can do anything about them is to advise, educate and pray that Allaah guides the ignorant.

While I accept that there are a number of individuals and groups among the Muslim community that are to blame for some of the problems around the world, at the same time, I feel that certain organizations around that world are capitalizing upon that and using that to add fuel to the fire so to speak.

I do not believe that there is sufficient evidence to confirm that some of the major acts of terrorism attributed to Muslims were indeed committed by Muslims. And even if you argue that some of them were capable of doing it, then why did the security organizations responsible for monitoring potential attacks fail to stop those attacks when they are capable of stopping much lesser attacks on an everyday basis? There are many unanswered questions about 9/11, 7/7, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria etc. which bring in to the question who is actually responsible for those attacks. There are more and more films being released about extreme right wing western organizations that will go to any lengths to achieve their aims. I wonder why these films are being released more and more nowadays. Maybe someone is trying to tell us something.

The people responsible for ordering the invasion of Iraq, the murder of hundreds of thousands of innocent lives both in Iraq and amongst the western soldiers who fought there are walking around scot free without being held to account for their actions. The findings of Iraq report seems to have been put on hold for an unusually long time. Why are ordinary law abiding citizens people made to feel the full force of the law while the decision makers responsible for the murder of hundreds of thousands allowed to walk around with immunity from the law?

If certain organizations stopped all the false flag operations, the lies, mis-information and stopped using traitors and sell-outs to give Islaam a bad name, I'm sure the no. of acts of terrorism attributed to Muslims would be far less than what we see reported.

People from all walks of life and faiths are waking up to the lies and oppression and infringement of freedom caused by various individuals and organizations upon people from all faiths and backgrounds. People are not stupid. They can see the lies and how public money is being squandered on projects that make life more and more difficult for people. If the media and technology is being used for the wrong purposes as we have being seeing recently then it might just backfire on those misusing it.

As far as the media goes, I do not believe they can be classified as messengers. They play a far greater role. As we have said before, the media is largely owned by Zionists whose main aim is the destruction of Islam and the establishment of their extremist ideology. With that said, their goal is not merely to be a mirror but their goal is to paint the Muslim world in a worse light than it really is. They use extremist actions to make the world believe that Islaam is a religion of extremism when this is far from the truth.

The fact that Islaam is the fastest growing religion in the world should make people think how can it be such a bad religion when people are flocking to it on a daily basis. There must be something that people find appealing to make it the fastest growing religion in the world. In fact, whenever there is a major attack on Islaam in the media, more and more people want to learn about it and instead of turning people away from it, it attracts them to it. So this is a kind of miracle which is a testimony to the greatness of the religion of Islaam.

Allaah willing I pray that the ignorants among us are guided to the Straight Path. This is something we pray for at least 5 times a day, every day. I also pray that people judge Islaam by what is mentioned in the pure teachings of The Qur'aan and the authentic sayings of The Prophet Muhammaad, Allaah's final Messenger to Mankind (obviously according to the right context in which they are applicable to, not placing a verse or saying in a completely wrong context). If a Muslim's speech and actions are in line with these then only should the action be attributed to Islaam and if an individual or groups actions have no evidence to support it from these authentic sources then the actions should NOT be attributed to Islaam but to ignorant individuals who have an agenda of their own.

May Allaah, The Most High guide us all to The Straight Path.

[Independent]

In the event that far right groups do begin a concerted, connected campaign of terror against western targets they will receive the same vilification that Muslim terrorist groups do now. Currently, they have a fraction of the scale, support and organisation. Lapshyn and Brevik are both isolated mavericks. Brevik was hugely destructive, but there's no ongoing organisation to fight. No ‘war on terror’ to begin. The same with Lapshyn.

There are many unanswered questions about 9/11, 7/7, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria etc. which bring in to the question who is actually responsible for those attacks.

The great majority of people in the world do not see these events as black flag operations. However, there are two groups of people where a critical mass of people do indeed take the conspiracy view. Those two groups are far right supporters and some Muslim societies. Surveys show strong belief in 9/11 conspiracy theories in certain countries (eg Egypt and Palestine). What is significant is that these views have extended way beyond the radical fringe into the supposedly moderate middle - to the extent that everyone is familiar with such views and many people at least half believe them.

Rather than trying to argue about these events in particular (which would take forever) let's skip to some different questions.

1. I believe that most Muslims do sincerely reject terrorism and regard it as against Islam. Most often this issue gets asked after a spectacular event (9/11, 7/7, Woolwich etc). But instead of condemnation, the first response you may hear from a Muslim is a mix of: 'Muslims couldn't do something like this', 'it was a black flag op by western governments against their own people', 'it was an attack on Muslims' (even though it was a western target), and most important of all, 'you in the west deserve this by your own actions because this is no worse than the terror you inflict on Iraq etc'. It's often hard to tell whether an individual Muslim condemns or supports the action (I can think of many examples on this forum).

This adds up to the most complete denial of responsibility imaginable: ‘We didn't do it, you did it to yourself, and in any case you deserved it.’ Incredibly, many individuals will deny Muslim involvement one minute, while celebrating Al Qaeda’s success and warning there’s more to come the next. They literally have it both ways. Somehow, these events are portrayed both as a moral judgment on the west and as act by the west itself. Each new terrorist act is taken as further proof of western immorality.

How is this likely to be received by a western audience? Much of it would seem incomprehensible. What do you mean we did it to ourselves?! That’s ridiculous and offensive!

The impression is given that Muslims deny responsibility for any attacks on the west at all (and in fact you have listed all the major incidents).

The ordinary western citizen will then lay this denial alongside other evidence. He may see a video of the alleged Muslim perpetrator claiming responsibility and saying they did it in the name of Islam. He may see popular street support in Muslim countries (eg Palestinians welcoming 9/11). He will hear the alleged perpetrator tell us he was justified in his barbarous act because of western aggression in Iraq etc. The citizen will hear exactly the same point of view expressed by the wider Muslim community. They may also hear a series of Muslim ‘spokespeople’ who give entirely contradictory accounts of what is or is not allowed in Islam.

So to summarise: the western citizen will see an apparently Muslim man, openly claiming responsibility, and giving reasons entirely consistent with those held by millions of other Muslims. Yet at the end of all this, the citizen is now told this act wasn't committed by a Muslim at all, but by his own government.

Can you be surprised if this argument isn’t working?

2. The strange thing is that even those Muslims who say it’s a Zionist conspiracy don’t behave as if they really and truly believe it. Logically, if it’s all the Zionists fault, then the west is a victim not a perpetrator. Westerners have been tricked along with everyone else.

Yet in practice this is hardly ever expressed except in the form of an insult (‘sheeple’ etc). There is no attempt to persuade, to find common cause. Those Muslims who believe in this conspiracy also tend to view the west as an age old enemy and individual westerners as - literally – agents of shaytan. Many of them criticise western society in every way, as if they would like to smash every aspect of it.

In practice, they seem to use the conspiracy theory simply as an excuse for their pre-existing anti western views, and as a way to remove all moral responsibility for their own actions.

3. In many ways it would be nice for me to believe in this conspiracy. It would mean that this world, which I already view fairly positively, has the chance to become much better if the Zionists were overthrown. In truth, it would be to my advantage to join you in believing in this conspiracy.

The reason I don't is because I find it wholly unconvincing. Many of its most popular advocates (David Icke etc) are figures of ridicule who can't get basic facts right. Why would I choose to trust someone in the big things when they routinely misrepresent and actively lie about the detail? I find it even less convincing when many of those who tell me they’re right and I’m wrong, also tell me they know I’m part of the conspiracy. Now, there aren’t many things in the world I can know absolutely for certain, but this I know for sure is crap.

I wish I could persuade you and others to reconsider this view but I recognize that’s not easily going to happen. So long as this belief is widespread in Muslim society there can be no end to strife. I can’t undeclare a war I never knew I declared in the first place.

As it happens an interesting article on this subject has just popped up on the BBC website:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24650841

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update.

I like the irony of Jack Straw being there as somebody whos somewhat of an 'expert' on Islam. I also like how they keep going on about how Islam needs a 'reformation', failing to understand the full implications of what they are saying. (Eg. it was one of the reasons that led to Christianitys decline.)

Interesting video nevertheless.

[Abdul-Halim265]

These back-lashes are what makes the whole situation all the more tragic!

A mosque in my home town suffered an arson attack following the Woolwich attack. Luckily not much damage was done, but it causes many problems - peaceful communities are disrupted, Muslims live in fear, Muslims AND non-Muslims are told by the media that they have to fear each other ...

I sent a letter expressing my sadness and support and prayers ... I don't know what difference it will make, but I felt I had to so SOMETHING. :cry:

Much effort is being made to build peaceful relationships between our faiths and others - but it only takes the action of a few idiotic extremists on both sides to undo all that. imsad

Still, I will never give up hope that peace is possible.

Unfortunately, this is definitely the case. As a Muslim living in the UK myself (British born and bred) I know all too well that if there's one group of people which the media does love to demonise, it is Muslims. Most Muslims in the UK aren't extremists at all, and homogenising us all as extreme, and judging the majority from the minority, is simply wrong. Yet unfortunately, although many do understand this, many more easily-swayed individuals will not.

However, I am by no means giving up hope. Inshallah much will change. :)

[Pygoscelis]

Unfortunately, this is definitely the case. As a Muslim living in the UK myself (British born and bred) I know all too well that if there's one group of people which the media does love to demonise, it is Muslims. Most Muslims in the UK aren't extremists at all, and homogenising us all as extreme, and judging the majority from the minority, is simply wrong. Yet unfortunately, although many do understand this, many more easily-swayed individuals will not.

When people are isolated from the muslims in their community, if they don't get out much, or stick to their friends alone, it isn't surprising that they would get such an image of muslims. This can happen at a less extreme level as well. I never believed that all muslims were fundamentalist extremist terrorist types, but I *DID* once believe, based mostly on the media, that all muslims were conservative. I've since found that most are, but by no means all. I know some socially liberal muslims, which really surprised me a lot more than meeting socially liberal christians or jews.

[Karl]

When people are isolated from the muslims in their community, if they don't get out much, or stick to their friends alone, it isn't surprising that they would get such an image of muslims. This can happen at a less extreme level as well. I never believed that all muslims were fundamentalist extremist terrorist types, but I *DID* once believe, based mostly on the media, that all muslims were conservative. I've since found that most are, but by no means all. I know some socially liberal muslims, which really surprised me a lot more than meeting socially liberal christians or jews.

"socially liberal Muslims". This is a euphemism for sycophantic apostates that are trying to appease the West. They don't believe in freedom like their name suggests but embrace the West's dogmas and bigotry. They even want to stamp out certain customs and practices that are halal! And make other certain things halal that are haram. They are the worst of heretics and blasphemers. They are the rotting infiltrating agents out to destroy Islam.

[glo]

A mosque in my home town suffered an arson attack following the Woolwich attack. Luckily not much damage was done, but it causes many problems - peaceful communities are disrupted, Muslims live in fear, Muslims AND non-Muslims are told by the media that they have to fear each other ...

I sent a letter expressing my sadness and support and prayers ... I don't know what difference it will make, but I felt I had to so SOMETHING. :cry:

Just wanting to send an update.

My letter did make a difference. I received a kind return letter and an invitation to an interfaith Eid event.
And many, many other people from all faiths and none had sent messages of support and sympathy too. :)

[Abdul-Halim265]

When people are isolated from the muslims in their community, if they don't get out much, or stick to their friends alone, it isn't surprising that they would get such an image of muslims. This can happen at a less extreme level as well. I never believed that all muslims were fundamentalist extremist terrorist types, but I *DID* once believe, based mostly on the media, that all muslims were conservative. I've since found that most are, but by no means all. I know some socially liberal muslims, which really surprised me a lot more than meeting socially liberal christians or jews.

I always figured that there were liberal Muslims and that not all Muslims were terrorists by any means, as some would have me believe. But the media never showed me this really, or many other people for that matter (it was something that you largely figure out for yourself). No wonder so many people are under the impression that Muslims are a homogeneous mass of terrorists; their weak minds are only fed one side of the story.

[LauraS]

When people are isolated from the muslims in their community, if they don't get out much, or stick to their friends alone, it isn't surprising that they would get such an image of muslims. This can happen at a less extreme level as well. I never believed that all muslims were fundamentalist extremist terrorist types, but I *DID* once believe, based mostly on the media, that all muslims were conservative. I've since found that most are, but by no means all. I know some socially liberal muslims, which really surprised me a lot more than meeting socially liberal christians or jews.

And this is a big part of the problem. From what I've read on Islamic forums Muslims see no reason why they should mix with non-Muslims at all, even showing complete disdain and superiority to them. And in wider society Muslims just don't mix. You just can't live in a non-Muslim country, isolate yourself and not expect there to be problems- that's just life. The problem between Muslims and non-Muslims cannot solely be blamed on non-Muslims.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another interview. Doesn't stop ^o)

[Abdul-Halim265]

And this is a big part of the problem. From what I've read on Islamic forums Muslims see no reason why they should mix with non-Muslims at all, even showing complete disdain and superiority to them. And in wider society Muslims just don't mix. You just can't live in a non-Muslim country, isolate yourself and not expect there to be problems- that's just life. The problem between Muslims and non-Muslims cannot solely be blamed on non-Muslims.

This is true. Many Muslim communities don't integrate themselves, and some Muslims online routinely refer to non-Muslims as "kuffar", "kaffirs", etc, and praise figures that many would consider to be outright extremists. I'm not saying this is true of all Muslim communities; far from it, but some communities are much too isolated for their own good, and don't seem to see the link between self-isolation and people forming negative perceptions of them. If they made an effort to reach out more to the majority of non-Muslims in this instance, I think more progress would be made.

The same has been seen for centuries in Jewish communities in Europe, especially when they first settled in Europe and did their best to keep their communities separate. Self-imposed segregation is NEVER the answer.

- From a British Muslim (with a non-Muslim family) who associates with anyone, regardless of religion, as long as they're a good person.

[Insaanah]

From what I've read on Islamic forums

Not a good idea to deduce what attitude Muslims, either wholly, or as a majority, or generally, have, solely based on only your interaction with members of internet forums.

And in wider society Muslims just don't mix.

Where did you establish this fact from? What's the source?

Perhaps that's where you live. I live in a diverse multi-faith multi-ethnic society, where, groupwise, everybody gets on with everyone else. We also have an annual community fun day, organised jointly by the Muslim school and the church across the road from it, and this is now an annual fixture. A couple of roads get closed off, and there are rides for children, animals from the farm, stalls, arts and crafts, all types of food, free health checks, etc. There may be faith information available too, for those who are interested. Everybody is welcome, of all faiths and none. And indeed many people do seem to stop by, even if just for an ice cream.

The mosque regularly meets with Rabbis and leaders of other religious communities, with talks where all are welcome to attend.

The problem between Muslims and non-Muslims

I also know other people who live in other parts of England, where people get on, and this so-called problem just doesn't seem to exist. You'll never get every member of a group that wants to go and mix with others; even within members of the same group, not everyone will want to mix, but this by no means constitutes a problem.

[Abdul-Halim265]

Generalising from forums is never a good thing, indeed, as forums do often only bring out the worst in people, aren't representative of a broad range of people, etc. This isn't a widespread problem at all, even if it does exist in some places. Most Muslims I know aren't isolationist at all, and are open and friendly. The only real danger is that the extreme minority will influence the moderate majority, but this doesn't happen much either, thankfully (most British Muslims can't stand Anjem Choudary, for example, and rightly so).

[Pygoscelis]

Unfortunately, a lot of people in the west, and especially those in the USA, and especially those in conservative hotbeds of the USA where politicians are especially fond of using Islam as a bogeyman, interaction with muslims online is the only interaction they get with muslims at all. I live near Toronto in Canada, which is far more multicultural, and even I only know 6 or 7 muslims in real life.

[LauraS]

The source for what I've said is general life. Round where I live we have mix of people, but no Muslims. However about 10-15 minute drive are streets that are nearly only Muslim. I've seen Muslims discussing why they shouldn't integrate, quoting parts of the Qur'an that say they shouldn't befriend non-Muslims. Surely more mixing can only be beneficial to creating trust?

And sorry to do tit for tat but saying it's no good not judging Muslims by forums is true, but look at the title of this thread. Non-Muslims are judged by the actions of a few ALL of the time too. A number of times I've seen people say "look at the comment section" regarding news articles about Islam then people will have a discussion on the ignorance of non-muslims

If there isn't a problem, then why does this thread exist?