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Logikon
05-30-2013, 05:01 AM
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...e-francis?lite


http://news.yahoo.com/pope-francis-n...235904106.html


.....most of the 800 new saints are 15th-century martyrs......

Benedict XVI's unfinished business put the new pontiff in a delicate position. The 813 "Martyrs of Otranto" were beheaded by Ottoman soldiers for refusing to convert to Islam.


They did not give up their faith. God must be pleased with them.
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GuestFellow
05-30-2013, 10:15 AM
I'm sure I would do the same if a non-Muslim with an axe tried to make me convert to a different religion.
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جوري
05-30-2013, 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by Logikon
http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2...e-francis?lite


http://news.yahoo.com/pope-francis-n...235904106.html


.....most of the 800 new saints are 15th-century martyrs......

Benedict XVI's unfinished business put the new pontiff in a delicate position. The 813 "Martyrs of Otranto" were beheaded by Ottoman soldiers for refusing to convert to Islam.


They did not give up their faith. God must be pleased with them.
That story is a fake and refuted by historians... and in fact not in concert with Islamic nature, let's face it, up to the 21s C. christians were practicing genocide just look at Rawanda and the halocaust before that while in the 1100's Salahdin captured Jerusalem giving full rights and showing mercy to the Jews & christians.
The problem with you folks is you know nothing of history so you make it up and others jump on the bandwagon because you quote yahoo without investigating historical accuracy!
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GuestFellow
05-30-2013, 02:11 PM
Yes Muslims cannot force non-Muslims to convert. :/
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YusufNoor
05-30-2013, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by Logikon
They did not give up their faith. God must be pleased with them.
why would God be pleased with pagan polytheists? ^o)
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Independent
05-30-2013, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
That story is a fake and refuted by historians...
'Disputed' yes, 'refuted' no. It may have been less than 800 in this final stand. However, it excludes the estimated 12,000 people mostly civilians who had already been slaughtered in the city and the 5,000 survivors sold into slavery.

Originally Posted by العنود
not in concert with Islamic nature,
Both Christians and Muslims don't always live up to the ideals of their religions.

Originally Posted by العنود
in the 1100's Salahdin captured Jerusalem giving full rights and showing mercy to the Jews & christians.
It is now known that Salahdin himself wanted to storm the city and put the inhabitants to the sword (according to the rules of war at that time, just as the Crusaders had done). But the Christian defenders threatened to kill Muslim captives and destroy the city if they weren't granted safe passage. Salahdin's advisers persuaded him to agree to clemency - and so was born a powerful legend. Salahdin was undoubtedly a noble man by the standards of his time but he isn't the man of legend either.

One man who certainly showed the utmost brutality in completing the job that Salahdin could not was Sultan Baibars of Egypt. In the siege of Antioch he promised clemency to the defenders if they surrendered. He broke his promise, massacred the soldiers and sold everyone else into slavery. A tactic he repeated at a number of other cities. He boasts about this in his own words, sent to the absent Christian governor of Antioch, gloating about his success:

'Death came among the besieged from all sides and by all roads: we killed all that thou hadst appointed to guard the city or defend its approaches. If thou hadst seen thy knights trampled under the feet of the horses, thy provinces given up to pillage, thy riches distributed by measures full, the wives of thy subjects put to public sale; if thou hadst seen the pulpits and crosses overturned, the leaves of the Gospel torn and cast to the winds, and the sepulchres of thy patriarchs profaned; if thou hadst seen thy enemies, the Mussulmans trampling upon the tabernacle, and immolating in the sanctuary, monk, priest and deacon; in short, if thou hadst seen thy palaces given up to the flames, the dead devoured by the fire of this world, the Church of St Paul and that of St Peter completely and entirely destroyed, certes, thou wouldst have cried out "Would to Heaven that I were become dust!" '.

Originally Posted by العنود
The problem with you folks is you know nothing of history
You know the bits that suit you, and nothing else.
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Muhammad
05-30-2013, 04:36 PM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by Independent
One man who certainly showed the utmost brutality in completing the job that Salahdin could not was Sultan Baibars of Egypt
Was this account something taken from wikipedia? It is certainly no secret, as I've mentioned before on the forum, that Muslims have been at the centre of a campaign of slander and propaganda, being depicted as barbaric and inferior. That is why it is all the more important to verify the sources being used, and I doubt wikipedia is a very accurate or reliable one for this purpose. It is interesting that the Crusades have been mentioned, because that was a prime example of how a distorted, negative image of the Muslim foe was built so as to help accomplish the objectives pursued by the Christian West.
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جوري
05-30-2013, 04:40 PM
It isn't worthy to dignify made up history, those who lie in part lie in sum per his own admission (although not in so many words). They can rewrite history any which way they want.
What is most amusing here is that he proclaims that I am selective about the history to which I subscribe, I'd say even if it were true it is better still than a plagiarizer whose knowledge of any topic is an instant google search which isn't properly sourced!

:w:
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Independent
05-30-2013, 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
Was this account something taken from wikipedia?
The Baibars quote is on wiki, the general account of his brutal methods is common to every book I've read on the subject - I don't know if any historians have tried to rehabilitate him. Baibars was hugely effective as a military leader. It was he, not Salahdin, who ended Outremer forever.

The account of Salahdin's takeover of Jerusalem is a recent discovery from Muslim sources. I'm presently out of the country so I can't give you a better reference right now.
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Muhammad
05-30-2013, 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
The Baibars quote is on wiki, the general account of his brutal methods is common to every book I've read on the subject
It is not surprising, considering the fact that the Turks were viewed throughout the centuries as cruel oppressors, barbarians and being hostile to learning and science. Chroniclers and European 'humanists' dwelt on Turkish atrocities and accepted whatever sensational reports of violence and savagery came their way. Their successes caused an outburst of emotions and their threat to Christian civilisation was vividly portrayed to obtain much needed assistance against them. Even on wikipedia:

Sultan Baibars was reviled in the Christian world of the time for his seemingly unending victorious campaigns. A Templar knight who fought in the Seventh Crusade lamented:
Rage and sorrow are seated in my heart...so firmly that I scarce dare to stay alive. It seems that God wishes to support the Turks to our loss...ah, lord God...alas, the realm of the East has lost so much that it will never be able to rise up again. They will make a Mosque of Holy Mary's convent, and since the theft pleases her Son, who should weep at this, we are forced to comply as well...Anyone who wishes to fight the Turks is mad, for Jesus Christ does not fight them any more. They have conquered, they will conquer. For every day they drive us down, knowing that God, who was awake, sleeps now, and Muhammad waxes powerful.[23]
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Independent
05-30-2013, 08:05 PM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
It is not surprising, considering the fact that the Turks were viewed throughout the centuries as cruel oppressors, barbarians and being hostile to learning and science.
In fairness, this is hardly exclusive to Christians - everyone tends to exaggerate the wickedness of their enemies. Which is what makes some of those postwar unions between, say a Japanese and a British WW2 soldier, quite moving - as they discover they are all just humans after all.

The quote I gave about Baibars is contemporary and from his own secretary and chronicler, who was of course a Muslim and about as far as you could get from being a critic. Amazing as it may seem today, he wrote that bloodthirsty account because he thought it placed his master in a good light. When you place it in parallel with some of the accounts of the fall of Jerusalem to the Crusaders it is hard to tell the difference.

It's one of the things that makes looking at the past difficult - our morality, our standards have changed enormously. 'Might' was 'right' - ie if you were strong enough to conquer your enemy, that made it right.
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GuestFellow
05-30-2013, 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
everyone tends to exaggerate the wickedness of their enemies.
Does that include the relations between the Jews and the Nazis?
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Independent
05-30-2013, 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by GuestFellow
Does that include the relations between the Jews and the Nazis?
Definitely in one direction - the Nazis invented a threat from the Jews.

The Holocaust wasn't a war, it was just an execution of prisoners.
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GuestFellow
05-30-2013, 08:18 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
Definitely in one direction - the Nazis invented a threat from the Jews.

The Holocaust wasn't a war, it was just an execution of prisoners.
I'm not sure if you have addressed my question. I will rephrase my question.

You said before everyone exaggerates the wickedness of their enemies. We have many mass killings in the past like the Holocaust, Mai Lai massacre, Bosnia massacres, Armenian Genocide and so on. Now I'm referring to a very specific relationship between the Jews and Nazis in Germany.

Now I'm saying do you think the Jews may have exaggerated their mistreatment from the Nazis? Is this possible? I'm really eager to hear your response. A yes or no response will suffice.
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Zafran
05-30-2013, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
Definitely in one direction - the Nazis invented a threat from the Jews.

The Holocaust wasn't a war, it was just an execution of prisoners.
Like the atomic bomb, or the occupation of china by Japan, or the Dresden raids.
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Futuwwa
05-30-2013, 08:37 PM
Big deal. Does it matter whether the incident actually happened or not?
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GuestFellow
05-30-2013, 08:57 PM
^ No but its interesting to talk about...
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Independent
05-30-2013, 09:08 PM
Gosh, this thread seems to have escalated rapidly into a history of everything.

Originally Posted by GuestFellow
You said before everyone exaggerates the wickedness of their enemies.
Ok, maybe 'everyone' was pushing it too far.

Originally Posted by GuestFellow
A yes or no response will suffice.
No!
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GuestFellow
05-30-2013, 09:25 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
No!
Okay. Now what makes you say that? What makes the holocaust so different to other massacres?

It's strange how many people treat the holocaust as a special case. Sometimes it makes me question your objectivity.
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Independent
05-30-2013, 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by GuestFellow
Okay. Now what makes you say that? What makes the holocaust so different to other massacres?
That's the one you asked me, it's not the only one.
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GuestFellow
05-30-2013, 09:32 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
That's the one you asked me, it's not the only one.
Fair enough. I'll accept.
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Karl
05-31-2013, 12:25 AM
What about all the Christians that the Romans killed. And the Christians the heathens to the north killed. And the Chinese killed and Japanese killed and the natives of the New World and Australasia etc killed? Is this a political stunt?
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جوري
05-31-2013, 12:31 AM
Originally Posted by Karl
What about all the Christians that the Romans killed. And the Christians the heathens to the north killed. And the Chinese killed and Japanese killed and the natives of the New World and Australasia etc killed? Is this a political stunt?
He wanted to keep with the previous one's agenda is all and emphasize their crusades into the new century.
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Muhammad
05-31-2013, 01:04 AM
Originally Posted by Independent
In fairness, this is hardly exclusive to Christians - everyone tends to exaggerate the wickedness of their enemies.
If we are being fair, ongoing lies and distortions cannot be justified by saying everyone does it, because in this case, it is simply not true. Till this day we have historical programmes like The War of the Worlds aired on television, presented by professors, devoting their most passionate words to 'Turkish crimes', their genocides of Christians, minimising victims of Western genocides and on the other hand multiplying the crimes of others - up to three times that of older historians. That is just one example amongst many. Where do we find such a relentless campaign for more than ten centuries led by Muslims against anyone else? The following excerpt summarises it well:


The Muslims do not have writing and studies in which the Western Christians are painted in demonic images, as bloodthirsty murderous fanatics so as to justify attacking them, colonising them and killing them en masse. Even during the Middle Ages, when Islamic civilisation was at its zenith, and most Western nations were at a barbarian level, some even at their pre-historic level, Muslims did not use this as a justification to conquer them, slaughter them and loot their wealth. There is not one single work written by a Muslim where the Westerners are represented as sub-human barbarians who warrant sending armies to civilise them by slaying them en masse. Western Christian writing and opinion making, on the other hand, as already seen, is crammed with such writing and image-painting of their foes: thousands of books, tens of thousands of articles in learned reviews and the media, every year; conferences, seminars, films, radio and television broadcasts; hundreds of university courses and thousands of academics and researchers, all dedicated to the task of darkening Islam and Muslims, using as already seen, distortions in all forms and all sorts for the purpose...
S. E. Al-Djazairi, The Myth of Muslim Barbarism and its Aims


It's one of the things that makes looking at the past difficult - our morality, our standards have changed enormously.
I am not so sure they have. We are constantly confronted by the stereotyped, hostile view of the Turks, to the point that it is perfectly normal to hear of 'Turkish atrocities', and these of course being the worst atrocities committed. But this is contradicted by reality, which shows that Turkish humanity and tolerance have remained unique in history. Nobody would ever know that if the myth of 'Turkish Barbarism' was never challenged. The problem is the culture of regarding history as only being true when it denounces Muslim crimes, and distorted if it ever makes the cardinal error of praising anything Islamic or in denouncing Western genocides.
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Ali Mujahidin
05-31-2013, 01:30 AM
I beg to differ somewhat on this issue.

In the media, I see that there are people who profess to be Muslims who claim that the US is the Mother of all Devils, or something like that. I am not saying that the US is not responsible for some of the sufferings of other people including Muslims but to say that the US is the very root of anything and everything that is wrong, logically, cannot be true. For one, that would make the US very, very powerful, which, in truth, it isn't. I mean, if the US is really that powerful, then it would have done a much better job in, say, Afghanistan.

The way I see it, over-exaggeration is being practiced by all kinds of people for the simple reason that it's a weakness common to all people. Just look at how any story develops. It grows more and more embellished with every re-telling because the raison d'etre of a story-teller is to entertain his listeners and if his listeners are entralled by tales of gory details, then he will keep on pouring the blood, so to say, until you can hardly see the original story for all the muck.
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جوري
05-31-2013, 01:52 AM
Originally Posted by Ali Mujahidin
In the media, I see that there are people who profess to be Muslims who claim that the US is the Mother of all Devils
This is a recent phenomenon and not volumes of literature and an individual out lashing rather than an entire culture & a papacy dedicated to it. Of course people are going to lash back, how much BS can one take before a reaction is elicited?
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Ali Mujahidin
05-31-2013, 02:21 AM
Originally Posted by العنود
This is a recent phenomenon and not volumes of literature and an individual out lashing rather than an entire culture & a papacy dedicated to it. Of course people are going to lash back, how much BS can one take before a reaction is elicited?
Lash back? Fight lies with more lies? How does that relate to the teachings of Islam?
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جوري
05-31-2013, 08:14 AM
I am not sure what you're talking about? What lies are those?
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Independent
05-31-2013, 12:07 PM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
The problem is the culture of regarding history as only being true when it denounces Muslim crimes, and distorted if it ever makes the cardinal error of praising anything Islamic or in denouncing Western genocides.
You raise some very wide ranging issues in your post which I would like to respond to when I have a little more time.
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YusufNoor
05-31-2013, 12:22 PM
what hath the pope to do with God???
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Futuwwa
05-31-2013, 06:23 PM
Originally Posted by Karl
What about all the Christians that the Romans killed. And the Christians the heathens to the north killed.
A great many who were were indeed canonized for their martyrdom.

Originally Posted by Karl
And the Chinese killed and Japanese killed and the natives of the New World and Australasia etc killed?
They are not Christian martyrs.
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