Turkey protesters hold Istanbul square after days of violent clashes

[Roasted Cashew]

Residents of Turkey's largest city awoke Sunday to scenes of rain-soaked municipal workers and volunteer activists cleaning up the garbage left after days of violent clashes and angry demonstrations against the government.

Demonstrators remained in control of Taksim Square after Turkish security forces abandoned the district Saturday following 36 hours of vicious clashes.

Protesters erected makeshift barricades at the entrance to the square, which holds huge symbolic importance for Turkey's leftist political parties and labor movement.

Throughout Friday and Saturday, this bustling neighborhood was a battleground as riot police used water cannons, tear gas, pepper spray and armored personnel carriers to prevent protesters from entering this transit and commercial hub at the heart of the city. Saturday afternoon, police withdrew after firing several last volleys of tear gas at crowds, sending thousands of screaming people fleeing for cover.

Police continued to clash with demonstrators in other districts of Istanbul as well as in the capital, Ankara, late Saturday night.
Turkish authorities said more than 900 people have been detained and scores injured in protests and clashes in 30 of Turkey's 81 provinces over the past four days.

What began as a small sit-in to protest against the government's plan to demolish a park in Taksim Square has swelled to the biggest protest movement against Turkey's prime minister since Recep Tayyip Erdogan was elected more than 10 years ago. The crowds have been chanting "Tayyip resign" and "shoulder to shoulder against fascism."

In a televised speech on Sunday, Erdogan remained defiant.
"I ask in the name of God, Tayyip Erdogan is a dictator? If you are the kind of person who can call someone who serves their people a dictator then I have no words for you," Erdogan said.

He went on to praise his accomplishments overseeing a decade of unprecedented economic growth in Turkey. He also defended his record as a leader who has planted many trees.

"They are putting on airs saying we massacre trees," he said. "We have planted approximately 2 billion trees."
But many of the demonstrators say their anger is no longer directed against the proposed government plan to demolish Gezi Park, the last green space in central Istanbul.

"This park was just the ignition of all that," said Yakup Efe Tuncay, a 28-year old demonstrator who carried a Turkish flag while walking through the park Saturday. "The Erdogan government is usually considered as authoritarian. He has a big ego; he has this Napoleon syndrome. He takes himself as a sultan. ... He needs to stop doing that. He's just a prime minister."
The scope of the protests shows there is a bigger issue, about freedom of speech and accusations of authoritative government.
"People are entitled to disagreement with the government, they can exercise their democratic rights, but they can do so within the context of a democratic society," Erdogan's chief adviser, Ibrahim Kalin, said Saturday.
International human rights groups Amnesty International and Greenpeace have denounced what they describe as excessive use of police force against peaceful protesters.

A spokesman for EU foreign policy chief Catherine Ashton issued a statement that said Ashton "regrets disproportionate use of force by members of the Turkish police." Ashton also called for talks between the two sides.

Source:http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/02/wo...html?hpt=hp_t1

[جوري]

expected now that their debt is paid and he'd like to bring back Islam, the attaturks and the west won't leave him alone, small price to pay for an islamic awakening!

[GuestFellow]

Residents of Turkey's largest city awoke Sunday to scenes of rain-soaked municipal workers and volunteer activists cleaning up the garbage left after days of violent clashes and angry demonstrations against the government.

:sl:

These demonstrators should clean up their own mess.

[Perseveranze]

May Allah destroy the Kemalist, Secularists Islamophobes.

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[Jedi_Mindset]

The ones who are protesting now are rebels, they dont agree with erdogan banning alcohol and the 'islamisation' of turkey. Well turkey is a islamic country, majority muslims, wouldnt it be wise to apply some islamic laws then? I certainly dont agree with erdogan's alliance with NATO and israel but this is just bullcrap what these protestors are doing. If they want to be secular then go to the west. If they want to have 'freedom' go emigrate to the west. No secularism anymore in our muslim countries! The law of Allah(SWT) will prevail on this dunya! May Allah(SWT) help the believers in estabilishing HIS law on this earth. Ameen

[the_stranger]

I don't know that much about Turkey, but isn't the nation over 90% Muslim? Isn't the figure more like 98%? I find this whole thing very confusing. It seems that the protesters are accusing the government of acting in a way that is suppressing free speech and freedom of assembly, but I wonder are any of these sentiments are being echoed within the Islamic community? If not, then it seems as if the protesters are a very small minority. Also, the government's response to the protests looks pretty typical, and by the standards of some Western nations it has been quite mild. Unfortunately, it is not uncommon for protesters to be savagely beaten by authorities during peaceful demonstrations here in America. And, if I'm not mistaken, the Turkish government hasn't enacted any type of martial law, or placed restrictions on social media and internet access.

I'm not taking sides, because I'm far too ignorant of the situation to do so, but the protesters aren't looking too good from this angle. For now, I give my support to a young woman named Ayse Duygu, who was quoted in a New York Times article titled Turkish Leader Says Protests Will Not Stop Plans for Park. She said, "I'm not here for politics, I just want to clean up my city, which these hooligans destroyed."

[Independent]

It seems that the protesters are accusing the government of acting in a way that is suppressing free speech and freedom of assembly, but I wonder are any of these sentiments are being echoed within the Islamic community? If not, then it seems as if the protesters are a very small minority.

The flashpoint for the protests was, somewhat bizarrely, a government plan to concrete over one of Istanbul's few remaining central parks. But when you consider that what they want to build there is a barracks, then it might appear to look a little more authoritarian...

The bigger issue is that Erdogan is currently seeking to increase the powers of the Presidency to control the army, over-rule Parliament etc. And guess what? It is likely that he himself will stand for the presidency later in the year. It resembles Putin's tactics in Russia, when he sought to extend his power beyond the permitted terms of office by giving power to the presidency and reducing the prime minister into a proxy. Democracy gives leaders power - but then they want to burn the bridges behind them so that no one else can use to democracy to take their power away from them.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/charl...rkish-politics

Turkey is overwhelmingly Muslim but the country is split almost 50-50 between conservatives and modernisers. This protest is certainly big, as this BBC report describes:

"I have covered Syntagma, the Occupy protests and reported from Tahrir Square. This is different to all of them. First, it is massive. The sheer numbers dwarf any single episode of civil unrest in Greece. Second, the breadth of social support - within the urban enclave of Istanbul - is bigger than Greece and closer to Egypt. "Everyone is here - except the AK party," insists one young woman. People nod. In Greece, the urban middle class was split. Here the secular middle class are out in force, united across political divisions, to say nothing of football hatreds."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22752121

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

For what want to change in Turkey?

[the_stranger]

The bigger issue is that Erdogan is currently seeking to increase the powers of the Presidency to control the army, over-rule Parliament etc.

This is interesting. If this is what the protests are about, then I would be right there with them if I could. Here in the States, our Executive branch is still in the process of completing an unprecedented power-grab that began in the Bush terms. Sadly, most Americans are too busy updating their Facebook status to pay attention when their civil liberties are being taken away.

But, is this the sole motivation behind the protests, or is this a way of legitimizing anti-Islamic sentiments? This is not meant to be an antagonistic question, I'm genuinely curious. It's hard to tell what the spirit of the protest is from this side of the planet. I noticed in the BBC article, which is quite informative btw, that protesters are expressing unease about "creeping Islamisation." This is where I get lost. I would imagine that the vast majority of the population would support some Islam based legislation. But, again, I'm about 6,000 miles away, so I can only speculate.

[Independent]

But, is this the sole motivation behind the protests, or is this a way of legitimizing anti-Islamic sentiments?

The protests were spontaneous and totally unexpected by anyone. As in other Arab Spring episodes, they seem to have been triggered by youtube videos of excessive police force against what was, in the first place, a modest environmental protest.

As for your wider question - the issue is not whether or not Turkey should be a predominately Muslim country, that's a given. However, roughly half of the population prefer a separation of church and state and a more relaxed form of Islamic culture, whereas the other half want to move to a higher degree of religious influence in governance. Some would presumably support full sharia law although even Erdogan hasn't said this is his target.

The heritage of Kemal Ataturk is central to this argument, you might want to google him.

[جوري]

The protests were spontaneous and totally unexpected by anyone.

Nope in fact everyone including govt. Officials declared that they were very organized & purposeful. They're nothing more than the children of attaturk not wanting economic up rise or anything Islamic. Ordogan already said if they'll play that game he too can send out protesters but the whole thing is comical especially when they protest with beer bottles in front of them!
Not sure where you come up with your percentages otherwise and really don't care. We're talking the Ottomans here :ia: it will return a khilafah as it is the promise of :Allah::swt:
''''

[Signor]

On Streets after cutting of a tree dating back to Ottomon Empire Era.WoW

Where where they when this is happening

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/337631.stm

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/d...c/11376078.asp

http://www.presstv.com/detail/2013/0...destroy-syria/

Grow up or Wakeup Turkey!Decide it yourself

[the_stranger]

The heritage of Kemal Ataturk is central to this argument, you might want to google him.

Yeah, I'll make sure I learn more about him.

I wonder if Erdogan is using the prospect of an increasingly Islamic state to distract attention from this increase in power you spoke of. Governments have used this kind of sleight of hand before. Like when the Bush administration capitalized on the events of 9/11 to pass the Patriot Act without anyone batting an eyelash.

Is Erdogan using Islam to push his agenda?

[جوري]

Is Erdogan using Islam to push his agenda?

Along with attaturk, please read about the military rule in Turkey and how the previous 'Erdogans' were hung if they brought anything remotely Islamic to the scene, all there is, is that they're trying to set him back to ground zero:

Adnan Menderes google him too!

my sincere advise to you is not to take your info. from kaffirs, they'll always distort it, give you half truths or full lies for their own agenda.

:w:

[the_stranger]

Adnan Menderes google him too!

I surely will research him as well.

Like I mentioned earlier, I admit my ignorance of Turkish affairs and history. Right now, I'm at a point where I just want to collect information and hear different points of view before I can form my own educated opinion.

[جوري]

I surely will research him as well.

Like I mentioned earlier, I admit my ignorance of Turkish affairs and history. Right now, I'm at a point where I just want to collect information and hear different points of view before I can form my own educated opinion.

khyer :ia: let me give a few upshots:

was the first democratically elected Turkish Prime Minister between 1950–1960.

e was hanged by the military junta after the 1960 coup d'état, along with two other cabinet members, Fatin Rüştü Zorlu and Hasan Polatkan. He was the last Turkish political leader to be executed after a military coup .
was more tolerant towards traditional lifestyles and different forms of practice of Islam than Atatürk and his party had been^{[citation needed]} – he campaigned in the 1950 elections almost exclusively on the platform of legalizing the Arabic language Islamic call to prayer (adhan), which had been banned in order to wean Turkey from Arabic influences. He re-opened thousands of mosques across the country which had been closed down, and as such, he was blamed by his political opponents for using religion as a tool for political gain. One of his first political moves was to exclude the pictures of İsmet İnönü on Turkish banknotes and stamps and instead put Atatürk pictures back

_________________

So in fact anyone in Erdogan's position was always fought and successfully hung, attaturk like other kaffir, western brown nosing secularists (the many we have in the ME) developed a strong system in place to perpetuate their secular kaffir beliefs. Erdogan barely has any power, just made a few strides and those so-called protesters want to set him back. All we've to fear are these military juntas not the prime ministers.. Poor guy reminds me of Mursi of Egypt, it will always be one step forward and ten steps back.. that's because they're unable to change the system itself and the people are largely ignorant especially of their religion.

:w:

[Jedi_Mindset]

Turkish intelligence looking into 'foreign links' to Taksim protests: PM

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/tur...&NewsCatID=338

[Perseveranze]

This is a good article - http://muslimmatters.org/2013/06/03/...rkey-protests/

[Signor]

Protests in Turkey: Will Taksim Become Erdogan’s Tahrir Square?

Protests on Istiklal Avenue, the heart of Istanbul’s shopping and entertainment district, are nothing new. Over the past year, Turks have protested against the deteriorating state of press freedoms, a reckless construction boom, a draft law placing new curbs on abortion, the government’s response to the civil war raging in neighboring Syria, the jailing of hundreds of top generals on coup charges, the arrests of thousands of Kurdish activists accused of abetting the Kurdistan Workers’ Party, which Turkey labels a terrorist group, and, most recently, new restrictions on alcohol sales.

But the mass protests against the moderately Islamist government of Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan that have taken place over the past two days are different. For one, they are the biggest in years. On Friday evening, thousands of people streamed down Istiklal en route to Taksim Square, where the spark that ignited the ongoing unrest was first lit, before being beaten back by police units. The following day, as police abandoned the square, even more protesters arrived, their numbers in the tens if not hundreds of thousands. Protests and clashes have since broken out in a number of other cities across Turkey, including the capital, Ankara. As of Saturday night, 939 people had been arrested and 79 wounded in 90 demonstrations around the country, according to the Ministry of the Interior. Volunteer doctors around Taksim estimated that the number of injured exceeded 1,000.


It all began on May 27 in a small park right behind Taksim, where a number of activists converged to protest plans to turn the area — one of the few green spaces in the city center — into a replica of an Ottoman barracks and shopping arcade. Over the next few days, as construction workers began uprooting trees, police repeatedly raided the sit-in, dispersing the protesters with tear gas, batons and water cannons. Images of wounded young men and women immediately began making the rounds on TV and social media, sparking wave after wave of popular outrage, as well as condemnation from human-rights groups, which decried the excessive use of tear gas against unarmed protesters.


Things reached a boiling point on Friday morning after the police raided Gezi Park once again, burning the protesters’ tents, firing more tear gas and leaving dozens injured. By the end of the day, the streets that feed into Taksim were filled to the brink. The grievances of all groups opposed to the government seemed to have rolled into one. On Istiklal Avenue, Zeynep, a 21-year-old student who had taken part in the protests from Day One, complained about the closing of state theaters, police brutality and runaway development. “We don’t need any more shopping malls, we need trees!” she shouted, her words mixing with chants calling for Prime Minister Erdogan to step down. Nearby, a pair of teenage girls accused Erdogan of restricting free speech and steering Turkey, a secular but Muslim-majority country, toward Islamic rule.


On a parallel avenue, adjacent to Tarlabasi, a poor neighborhood that had been forcibly vacated to make way for an upscale development project, the protests had devolved into violence. Banners advertising the project smoldered. A group of young men were busy tearing down metal barriers raised around the construction site of a new tunnel, parts of which were also in flames. “We’re against the park project, we’re against Tarlabasi, the killings of Kurds. Erdogan doesn’t let people breathe!” one of them yelled. “We’re against everything.” A middle-aged man standing within earshot blamed the government for meddling in Syria. “They’re sending jihadists to Syria, they’re the ones responsible for Reyhanli,” he said, referring to a May 11 car bombing in Reyhanli, a Turkish border town, which left 52 people dead. Police helicopters buzzed overhead. A young man, having removed his shirt and wrapped it around his face, pointed his hands, middle fingers outstretched, toward the sky.


On a small side street, a small group of protesters, partially sheltered by the high walls of the French consulate, were lobbing rocks at police trucks parked on the other side. At the other end of the street, near a small sushi restaurant, a young man, surrounded by others, including a female medic, lay motionless on the ground, blood seeping out of his forehead. Near him, Hasan Gumus, a bespectacled pensioner, quivered with rage. A cheap surgical mask dangled from his chin. “The police have no shame, look at what they’ve fired at me, me, a 77-year-old man,” he said, clutching an empty gas canister in his hand. “I’ll show this to my kids, my grandkids, I’ll even frame it.” He had come out to support the environmentalists, but he was fed up for a host of reasons, not least the new curbs on alcohol sales. Erdogan had justified the measure on health grounds, but opponents saw it as yet more evidence of Turkey’s creeping Islamization and the Prime Minister’s authoritarian turn. “I don’t drink alcohol,” Gumus said. “But who are you to tell me not to drink? Are you my father, my grandfather? You can’t tell me how to live.” As he finished speaking, the young man who had lain on the ground, his forehead now bandaged, struggled to rise to his feet.
In a speech on Saturday, Erdogan struck a defiant tone. The Taksim redevelopment project would go ahead, he said, referring to the protesters occupying the square as “marginal groups.” “If you gather a hundred thousand people,” he said, addressing the opposition, “I will gather a million.” It was the kind of rhetoric designed to rouse the party faithful, not to appease the protesters. As such, it was symptomatic of precisely what brought people to the streets in the first place — the arrogance of power. Within hours of Erdogan’s speech, the crowds once again descended on Taksim.
For a government that enjoys the support of nearly half the population, plus a seeming monopoly on power, and which has presided over a decade of unprecedented growth — the economy has roared ahead at an average of 5% per year since Erdogan’s ruling Justice and Development Party (AKP) took the reins in 2002 — the protests are far from a death knell. They are, however, a wake-up call. Erdogan, who cannot run for a third term as Prime Minister, is believed to be planning on being elected President in 2014, but not before using constitutional changes to endow the post with executive powers, as in the U.S. or France. The ongoing protests, more than anything that’s preceded them — including the efforts of a largely impotent political opposition — threaten to derail such plans for good.


So far, the protests have included mostly young leftists, environmentalists and secularists, all of them core government opponents, but very few religious conservatives. For Erdogan, the greatest danger is that conservative Muslims, who form the AKP’s base, will flinch at the images of police brutality and begin to join the protesters’ ranks. That may be one reason why the government has pulled police forces out of Taksim and clamped down on the media harder and more visibly than ever. Many press outlets are downplaying the protests. On Saturday, one of the country’s leading papers, owned the Prime Minister’s son-in-law, buried the story. Later that evening, as clashes between police and protesters continued around Istanbul and other cities, CNN Turk, a leading news network, aired a cooking show, plus documentaries about a 1970s novelist, dolphin training and penguins.

Read more: http://world.time.com/2013/06/02/pro...#ixzz2VAQWIzAA

--------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't know why comparisons like this are getting so much hype.Protestors in Egypt worked like well oiled machine with a solid purpose while here.........

[the_stranger]

The bigger issue is that Erdogan is currently seeking to increase the powers of the Presidency to control the army, over-rule Parliament etc. And guess what? It is likely that he himself will stand for the presidency later in the year.

May I ask the supporters of Erdogan to comment on this statement?

[Perseveranze]

I do not believe any Muslim, any true Muslim, should be supporting the protesters.

Erdogan is no Muslim Hero, but he's making positive reforms to give Islam more freedom. Apart from arguably Abdul Hamid II, no one's made as much Religious (and Non-Religious) reforms/progressiveness for Turkey in the past 100 years as Erdogan has. For this reason, Muslims (outside Turkey at least) will always be in support of him when he's against Secularist/Kemalists. It doesn't matter if one considers him "Authoritarian" or a "dictator", with the current mindset of the people, no one will be able to replace him if he goes, especially one who favours Islam.

Personally have no support for the protesters (even though they're against "Islamism, rather than Islam itself"), nor do I believe true Muslims would support them either. I also don't believe these few thousand represent the 70 million Turkish population, where many of the ultra conservative and Government supporters for now, are keeping a low profile. But, things will get very interesting if they decide to come out.

Turks in general have a very secular/Kemalist ideology, which tends to be brainwashed into them from a very young age. Restrictions of women wearing the Hijab, and on the age of when someone is "allowed to learn about Islam/Qur'an" are some of many anti-Islamic regulations embedded in the constitution, enforced by the secularist elites.

Having said that, the situation is improving in regards to the mentalities of many. For example, Kemalism is dying, whilst religiosity is on the rise, which I hope can continue.

Anyways, for Muslims, if you want further reasons as to why you shouldn't support the protests, then check this.

[the_stranger]

I do not believe any Muslim, any true Muslim, should be supporting the protesters.

From where did you receive the authority to question anybody's faith?

It doesn't matter if one considers him "Authoritarian" or a "dictator",

Dictatorships are acceptable as long as the dictator claims the same religion as you do?

[جوري]

If their beliefs and protests are for non-Islamic values then it isn't difficult to judge their faith.
There are ten things that put one outside the fold of Islam and beneath them are 44 articles. Those so-called protesters are in breech of all of them. That's how we know!

:w:

[the_stranger]

If their beliefs and protests are for non-Islamic values then it isn't difficult to judge their faith.

How is inquiring as to whether or not a government is attempting to abuse their power non-Islamic?

If you read me earlier posts you will see that my initial impression is that the protesters are opposed to Islamic law in an Islamic nation, which I am opposed to not only as a Muslim, but as a human being.

What I am questioning is whether or not the abuse of power that Independent mentioned earlier is accurate. If it turns out that he is abusing his power in order to further his personal agenda, then who is to say that he won't abandon the Muslim community when it suits his needs? It is important to be critical of powerful men. If you want to see what happens when too much power is in one pair of hands, then you need only to look at the American invasion of Iraq.

I take great offense to brothers and sisters questioning my faith simply because I do not automatically assume that a men in powerful positions always have the best intentions. It saddens me deeply to know how quickly one Muslim will turn on another over a political matter that is still developing. I think I will soon be exiting this forum.

[جوري]

If you read me earlier posts you will see that my initial impression is that the protesters are opposed to Islamic law in an Islamic nation, which I am opposed to not only as a Muslim, but as a human being.

You can't be opposed to that and be a Muslim!
So I guess we know all we need to know. There's no separation of church & state in Islam!

best,

[the_stranger]

You can't be opposed to that and be a Muslim!

I'll assume that English is not your first language, and that you did not read my earlier posts.

I'll repeat in more simple language: If protester is against Islamic law in Islamic nation, then I am not a friend of protester.

[جوري]

I'll assume that English is not your first language, and that you did not read my earlier posts.

I'll repeat in more simple language: If protester is against Islamic law in Islamic nation, then I am not a friend of protester.

I guess it isn't your first language either given this:

If you read me earlier posts you will see that my initial impression is that the protesters are opposed to Islamic law in an Islamic nation, which I am opposed to not only as a Muslim, but as a human being.

How should I understand that in simplified terms?


your faith is your own business otherwise, do you have something to prove?
best,

[Perseveranze]

From where did you receive the authority to question anybody's faith?

Anyone who's against Islamic reforms should question their own faith.

Dictatorships are acceptable as long as the dictator claims the same religion as you do?

1. I never said he's a dictator.

2. Even if he was a dictator, someone who is trying to bring Islam in a heavily anti-Islamic society is perfectly acceptable. The alternative here is someone "who's not a dictator, but brings further anti-islam reforms", which is something no Muslim should accept.

edit: After reading your other posts, you sound like another brainwashed modernist. And just so you know, myself and many others are heavily anti-Erdogan, simply because he doesn't do enough for Islam (though admittingly, everytime he does try, the Secularist courts overturn his decisions), but in this case, we're all in favour of him against those who are against Islam and in favour of Secularist/Kemalists ideology.

May Allah destroy those who are in support of restrictions upon Islam.

[the_stranger]

Are there any literate members who would like to contribute to this thread?

[Signor]

I take great offense to brothers and sisters questioning my faith simply because I do not automatically assume that a men in powerful positions always have the best intentions. It saddens me deeply to know how quickly one Muslim will turn on another over a political matter that is still developing. I think I will soon be exiting this forum

Bro,Have you ever heard "Power Tends to corrupt and Absolute power corrupts absolutely"?This happens in Muslim countries too

I think you need to learn more about your own religion.

Br Perseverance,He is new to Islam.

[جوري]

Br Perseverance,He is new to Islam.

I guess that explains the fine manners!

:w:

[White Rose]

edit: After reading your other posts, you sound like another brainwashed modernist. And just so you know, myself and many others are heavily anti-Erdogan, simply because he doesn't do enough for Islam (though admittingly, everytime he does try, the Secularist courts overturn his decisions), but in this case, we're all in favour of him against those who are against Islam and in favour of Secularist/Kemalists ideology.

May Allah destroy those who are in support of restrictions upon Islam.

I think its good to not label people just like that. For you dont know who is trying their hardest to understand. Sometimes it takes a while to understand whats going on.

[Jedi_Mindset]

Regarding tyrants, there are some factors which doesnt allow us to go against him when he is a muslim and still prays but is an oppressor, even if he takes your house away. But when the tyrant is a kafir, then its allowed to speak out against him, especially when the kafir tyrant rules over a country with majority muslims. However its only with the will of Allah(SWT) that the tyrant gets removed or not, as some oppressors are placed to test the believers, as a punishment, or a calamity.

[the_stranger]

Bro,Have you ever heard "Power Tends to corrupt and Absolute power corrupts absolutely"?This happens in Muslim countries too

Yes, I have heard this. That is why it is imperative that people are critical of those who occupy positions of leadership. If this man is a proponent of Islam, as some say he is, then why are they so adamantly against taking a critical look at his actions? Surely, if the well-being of Islam is his only motivation, then it will not be difficult to dismantle arguments that suggest otherwise. Perhaps they are afraid that they may discover he is just another in a long line of world leaders who have used religion as a tool to increase their power. We will never know if we do not inquire.

[جوري]

I think its good to not label people just like that. For you dont know who is trying their hardest to understand. Sometimes it takes a while to understand whats going on.

I agree indeed sister, by why the insults along the way when it is something apparently more than one person picked up on?

:w:

[Jedi_Mindset]

Have patience with the brother, he is new to islam, remember when we are to impatient he might think otherwise and revert back to his old ways. The_stranger just ask some questions, we will properly answer them, but listen ok? :)

[Signor]

Yes, I have heard this. That is why it is imperative that people are critical of those who occupy positions of leadership. If this man is a proponent of Islam, as some say he is, then why are they so adamantly against taking a critical look at his actions? Surely, if the well-being of Islam is his only motivation, then it will not be difficult to dismantle arguments that suggest otherwise. Perhaps they are afraid that they may discover he is just another in a long line of world leaders who have used religion as a tool to increase their power. We will never know if we do not inquire.

Bro,I honestly don't know about Eradagon.Infact,the little i know was in his favor.Since after a long time,we saw a party rise in turkey on the name of Islam.But considering many ground realities,you won't find steps in actual,Turkey is still considered to be the most secular among Muslim countries.They remove their clothes off and did every thing in there hands just to join EU.In recent times,they have been siding with israel.These are only a few basis why they are hated.You are not exposed to Islam in consideration to turkey(google Mustapha Kamal Pasha) and you will see after nearly a century,he is still ruling turkish minds.

As for protests,there is less weight for what protestors are raising their voices for.Offcourse,I am not in favour of human rights violations.

[the_stranger]

The_stranger just ask some questions, we will properly answer them, but listen ok?

Thank you, brother. I'm sure you will agree that if people in the West had been more critical of the actions of their leaders in the past, then the people of Palestine would not be suffering as they are now. The American people took their eyes off of their leaders, and now there is an extreme amount of power concentrated in one small part of the government. This small part of our government continues to support Israel's agenda.

Bro,I honestly don't know about Eradagon.

Neither do I. That is why I am here attempting to have an open discussion about the man and his actions. I am in full support of increased pro-Islamic legislation. It only makes sense that a nation populated almost entirely by Muslims should have laws that are a direct reflection of the religion. At no point did I say that I was opposed to the notion of Islamic law in Turkey, despite what some other members may have misread.

The question for which I am trying to find an answer is Why is Ergodan attempting to alter the nation's constitution in a way that would increase his personal power?

[GuestFellow]

Are there any literate members who would like to contribute to this thread?

:sl:

I don't know why they are protesting. I do believe protesters should clean up their own mess.

[Perseveranze]

I think its good to not label people just like that. For you dont know who is trying their hardest to understand. Sometimes it takes a while to understand whats going on.

That's true, maybe I was a little too full on, so I apologise to thestrangers.

Guess he doesn't know the history or what it's like in Turkey, where women who wear black hijab's (where allowed) are abused and are called "kara Fatma" (black fatima), a word used to describe cockroaches. All this comes about from the brainwashed mentality Turks are taught from a young age, as Turkish brother explains;

Since my family is leaning towards democracy and secularism i spent my childhood listening to socialist,secularist people;some of them call women with black hijabs "kara Fatma" which literally means "black Fatima" but it is a name for cockroach.Most of them absolutely hate Arabs,sunnah beard,hijab,shariah;some of the most anti-Islam people are among turkish secularists....

in turkey Kemalism brainwashing begins in elementary school,up until the end of the military service which is compulsory for all males.now i am studying engineering in uni,but there are still two MANDATORY courses even in mech. eng. teaching "history of revolutions";more kemalist brainwashing (u know they teach ataturks revolutions).

But he said things are slowly improving, however, it's still very difficult given the kind of laws and restrictions that are currently enforced by the kemalist/secularist elite.

[GuestFellow]

Guess he doesn't know the history or what it's like in Turkey, where women who wear black hijab's (where allowed) are called "kara Fatma" (black fatima), a word used to describe cockroaches.

:wa:

I'm surprised to read this.

[the_stranger]

Guess he doesn't know the history or what it's like in Turkey, where women who wear black hijab's (where allowed) are called "kara Fatma" (black fatima), a word used to describe cockroaches.

I don't know these things. I never claimed to know these things. In fact, I said repeatedly that I am ignorant of much of Turkish history. All I am guilty of is questioning the motivations of a politician who is attempting to give himself more power.

[Independent]

I have no idea about Erdogan's personal sincerity or motives - however, what is beyond question is that he is seeking to change the constitution in order to prolong his personal power. His party, the AKP, is in a strong position to win the next election. However, AKP rules forbid the leader from being Prime Minister 3 terms in succession so Erdogan can't stand.

So, he is seeking to change the constitution in order to hugely increase the power of the presidency (currently more or less a ceremonial position) to make it like the US presidency. Whereas now the Prime Minister appoints ministers under parliamentary scrutiny, with Erdogan's new constitution the President would choose his own ministers and in effect rule by presidential decree.

It's the exact strategy employed by Putin, for the same reasons.

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/view...-Erdogan-.html

[Signor]

Why is Ergodan attempting to alter the nation's constitution in a way that would increase his personal power?

I think this article would help you to find your answer:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/03/op...rkey.html?_r=0

In short,he want to make better amendments only to give extension to his own power.Really??Is this how he should do it in a Islamic way.Isn't this smell something fishy?

[جوري]

btw alarbia is just another name for al3brya.. It is basically Zionist news, the fox news in Arabic, a most vile paper along with Elaph if you've heard of it.
Always consider the source of your knowledge!

[the_stranger]

In short,he want to make better amendments only to give extension to his own power.Really??Is this how he should do it in a Islamic way.Isn't this smell something fishy?

My point exactly. But be careful, brother, you will be labeled a heretic by the brothers and sisters on this forum.

[جوري]

I think you missed the point of what br. Signor was trying to say. Also no one is calling anyone a heretic here, we simply point out what isn't compatible with Islam. No one here knows who you're, you can be anyone or anything.

best,

[the_stranger]

I think you missed the point of what br. Signor was trying to say.

I think brother Signor was expressing concern that Ergodan seems to be attempting to give himself more power.

Did I miss the point, Signor?

[Signor]

Let me clear my point.....Its not about being on any sides,I am talking about Eradogan actions in line with his intention.

Seemingly Intention:Makes President seat more stronger by empowering him.

Possible Effect:Amend constitution and bring more Islamic favor laws.

Question arises,this man is on this seat for so long where he have been since?if he loves Islam in such a way why he is siding with Zionists?These things puts a big question mark on future and this is the reason I uses it smells "fishy".

Does it makes sense?

[Signor]

I think brother Signor was expressing concern that Ergodan seems to be attempting to give himself more power.

For sure,this is my concern and this is big one considering Syria as neighboring country dealing with civil war and outside enemies.

[the_stranger]

Seemingly Intention:Makes President seat more stronger by empowering him.

This is the point I have been trying to address. Signor has succeeded in making this point clearly, where I seem to have failed.

Possible Effect:Amend constitution and bring more Islamic favor laws.

Yes, this could have favorable results for the Muslim majority of Turkey.

Question arises,this man is on this seat for so long where her have been to?if he loves Islam in such a way why he is siding with Zionists?These things puts a big question mark on future and this is the reason I uses it smells "fishy".

This is a perfect example of being critical of our leaders. I think Muslims all over the world would like to ask Erdogan about his stance on Israel, and how an increase in his power would affect his decisions regarding Israel.

Does it makes sense?

Makes sense to me. But this is a forum, and by definition multiple views and ideas need to be exchanged.

[Silent Peace]

The protestors are mostly Left-Wing and Communist, They think that Erdogan is Islamizing the country but the protests are started for the "cutting of the Trees and building a Mall" then turned into anti-government protests, one of the reasons for the protest was because Erdogan said: "2 drunk people created the constitution law" referring to ataturk and his friend. They were also protesting for the alcohol ban at night, but alcohol is also banned for the night in some european countries. I dont get the people who show him as "Muslim Hero" or Pious, while he added some Islamic Law, that was one of the things he did good but i dont think Hes implementing Shariah Law or bringing back Khalifa, Hes just making it more Democratic and a litlle bit of Islamic Law. I dont like the allience with the NATO. Hes not pious but Hes the best leader in Turkey for now.

[Perseveranze]

I think this article would help you to find your answer:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/03/op...rkey.html?_r=0

In short,he want to make better amendments only to give extension to his own power.Really??Is this how he should do it in a Islamic way.Isn't this smell something fishy?

Alhamdulillah if this is true. If he can get more power, he can make Islamic reforms like completely removing the Hijab ban (he's tried before, but Secular/Kemalist courts kept overturning his decision, and thus became powerless).

May Allah make him successful this time around.

[Silent Peace]

Alhamdulillah if this is true. If he can get more power, he can make Islamic reforms like completely removing the Hijab ban (he's tried before, but Secular/Kemalist courts kept overturning his decision, and thus became powerless).

May Allah make him successful this time around.

Hijab ban is removed completely already long time ago.

[GuestFellow]

I thought the Turkish government wanted to join the EU. If the current leader wants to introduce elements of Sharia then would this not be a conflict of interest?

Or am I getting this wrong?

[Silent Peace]

I thought the Turkish government wanted to join the EU. If the current leader wants to introduce elements of Sharia then would this not be a conflict of interest?

Or am I getting this wrong?

Well Turkish Government still wants to join EU for now. We cant know if the current leader wants to introduce Main elements of Shariah until He does so. You can read about Egemen Bagis. Here is a little information about Him:

Egemen Bağış (born April 23, 1970) is a Turkish politician,
member of the Turkish parliament since November 2002,
current minister for EU Affairs and chief negotiator of Turkey in accession talks with the European Union.
His Political Party: Justice and Development Party

There was members from JaD Party at the meeting of bilderberg group in Istanbul, they held a meeting at Istanbul in 2007 after 32 years later.

http://www.bilderberg.org/2007.htm#Maximus

Foreign Minister Abdullah Gül arranged a special dinner for the participants at the Bilderberg conference who are meeting in Istanbul this year. The Foreign Ministry protocol organized the dinner for about 150 people at Muayede, the biggest hall in Dolmabahçe Palace on Friday.

[GuestFellow]

Well Turkish Government still wants to join EU for now. We cant know if the current leader wants to introduce Main elements of Shariah until He does so. You can read about Egemen Bagis. Here is a little information about Him:

Egemen Bağış (born April 23, 1970) is a Turkish politician,
member of the Turkish parliament since November 2002,
current minister for EU Affairs and chief negotiator of Turkey in accession talks with the European Union.
His Political Party: Justice and Development Party

There was members from JaD Party at the meeting of bilderberg group in Istanbul, they held a meeting at Istanbul in 2007 after 32 years later.

http://www.bilderberg.org/2007.htm#Maximus

:wa:

Thanks for the response

Why are there protests? What is going on exactly?

[Perseveranze]

Hijab ban is removed completely already long time ago.

Not according to this;

Attempts at lifting ban

Prime Minister Erdogan campaigned in his victorious 2007 campaign with a promise of lifting the longstanding ban on headscarves in public institutions. However, as the Turkish deputies voted in Parliament, tens of thousands protested outside in favour of the ban.^[20]

On February 7, 2008, the Turkish Parliament passed an amendment to the constitution, allowing women to wear the headscarf in Turkish universities, arguing that many women would not seek an education if they could not wear the head scarf. The main political party, the Justice and Development Party and a key opposition party, the Nationalist Movement Party claimed that it was an issue of human rights and freedoms.^{[21][22][23][24]} The Parliament voted 403-107 (a majority of 79 per cent) in favour of the first amendment, which was inserted into the constitution stating that everyone has the right to equal treatment from state institutions. However the move resulted in opposition throughout Turkey. The country's educational board and numerous universities vowed to defy the new law. In addition, the main pro-secular, opposition party of the Republican People's Party asked the constitutional court to block the new law passed, and viewed it is a move towards an Islamic state.^[25] Thousands of demonstrators supporting the ban also gathered near the Parliament against the move by the government.^[26]

Lifting of ban annulled

On 5 June 2008, Turkey's Constitutional Court annulled the parliament's proposed amendment intended to lift the headscarf ban, ruling that removing the ban was against the founding principles of the constitution. The highest court's decision to uphold the headscarf ban cannot be appealed (AP 7 June 2008).^[27]

Hes not pious but Hes the best leader in Turkey for now.

Exactly, so people shouldn't support the protesters who are out with the communist, Kemalist, Islamophobic banners.

[the_stranger]

Why are there protests? What is going on exactly?

I have the same questions. It is good to have someone who is actually there.

[Silent Peace]

:wa:

Thanks for the response

Why are there protests? What is going on exactly?

They protest because:

They think that Erdogan is Islamizing the country.
There was a law that allows the cutting of the Trees and Making a Shopping Mall.
Erdogan said: "2 drunk people created the constitution law" referring to ataturk and his friend.
Erdogan wanted to remove culture center and build an opera house.
He banned alcohol at night around 22:00 and 6:00.

[GuestFellow]

They protest because:

They think that Erdogan is Islamizing the country.
There was a law that allows the cutting of the Trees and Making a Shopping Mall.
Erdogan said: "2 drunk people created the constitution law" referring to ataturk and his friend.
Erdogan wanted to remove culture center and build an opera house.
He banned alcohol at night around 22:00 and 6:00.

I can't believe that is what the protests about. That's just over the top.

[Jedi_Mindset]

I can't believe that is what the protests about. That's just over the top.

I think we all agree on this, what i dont understand that some of these turks still call themselves muslims if they hate the law of Allah(SWT) or some aspect from it.

Not according to this;

Attempts at lifting ban

I dont think this is true brother, i talk alot with silent blade, he lives in turkey itself and has confirmed that there is no hijab ban anymore, no more in public institutions and streets.

[Silent Peace]

Not according to this;

That is true but most women can still wear heardscarf and go to university, school, law court, etc.

[جوري]

new protests in Egypt using underwear, in tunisia using bare chested women and in turkey using liquor!
is this Islamic?
:w:

[Jedi_Mindset]

Truth always gets hated sis, and the shayateen in power will always attempt to ridicule or prevent it. Woe unto them, as Allah is most powerfull and no one can prevent HIS plans. :)

[the_stranger]

They protest because:

They think that Erdogan is Islamizing the country.
There was a law that allows the cutting of the Trees and Making a Shopping Mall.
Erdogan said: "2 drunk people created the constitution law" referring to ataturk and his friend.
Erdogan wanted to remove culture center and build an opera house.
He banned alcohol at night around 22:00 and 6:00.

This doesn't seem to warrant the clashes in the street that we've been seeing in the media. How does the average Turkish citizen feel about all of this? Is the media blowing things out of proportion? Is there concern among the Turkish population that Erdogan is trying to change the constitution, or is this also a media fabrication?

[Silent Peace]

This doesn't seem to warrant the clashes in the street that we've been seeing in the media. How does the average Turkish citizen feel about all of this? Is the media blowing things out of proportion? Is there concern among the Turkish population that Erdogan is trying to change the constitution, or is this also a media fabrication?

Yes Erdogan is trying to change the constitution and the secular people are worried about that. With the new constitution He thinks that it will make the country more democratic. But the seculars wants Turkey to be a Pro-Secular country.

[GuestFellow]

Yes Erdogan is trying to change the constitution and the secular people are worried about that. With the new constitution He thinks that it will make the country more democratic. But the seculars wants Turkey to be a Pro-Secular country.

What kind of constitution changes? Sorry for bombarding you with all these questions. I'm curious.

[the_stranger]

With the new constitution He thinks that it will make the country more democratic. But the seculars wants Turkey to be a Pro-Secular country.

Would it be accurate to say that the secular people don't want more Democracy because the majority of the population might support Islam-based laws? The secular people want minority rule? Or am I misunderstanding.

[Silent Peace]

What kind of constitution changes? Sorry for bombarding you with all these questions. I'm curious.

They are removing some things from constitution and adding some democratic laws. Not much of very big things.

[Silent Peace]

Would it be accurate to say that the secular people don't want more Democracy because the majority of the population might support Islam-based laws? The secular people want minority rule? Or am I misunderstanding.

Yes that is true. Secular people doesnt want more Democracy.

[the_stranger]

They are removing some things from constitution and adding some democratic laws. Not much of very big things.

Yes that is true. Secular people doesnt want more Democracy.

Thank you for clearing this up and answering all of these questions. I guess it's safe to say that the protesters should clean up their mess and go home.

[GuestFellow]

They are removing some things from constitution and adding some democratic laws. Not much of very big things.

Are there any other factors that are causing violent clashes? Like youth unemployment?

[Silent Peace]

Are there any other factors that are causing violent clashes? Like youth unemployment?

Its all happening because they dont want this government to be in power. They think this government is Islamic.

[Perseveranze]

^What about the ultra conservatives/Religious/Government supporters? I know they must exist, are they too much of a minority, or are there other reasons why they haven't tried to do a counter-protest?

[Perseveranze]

Subhanallah...

Mosque, drank alcohol and tobacco!

Travel Alem mosque in Taksim Park during the events of drink and smoke in Bezm activists emerged.

Travel protesters during the events of Taksim Park Alem Valide Sultan Mosque Dolmabahçe'deki Bezm appeared almost used it as a base. shoe demonstrators entered the mosque and the mosque to treat the injured friends in the mosque turned into the operating room understood. Returning to dump a large number of mosques, as well as beer bottles and cigarette package health materials are also included.


From Taksim to protest the actions due to the destruction of Travel in the Park

continues to stress. Takes several days of clashes between police and demonstrators. Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan and President Abdullah Gul Alem Valide Sultan Mosque frequented Dolmabahçe'deki Bezm used as a base for three days, appeared almost by demonstrators.Especially during the night-long friends in the mosque demonstrators to treat casualties understood. Activists who occupied the mosque gave great damage to the mosque. Security cameras even completely broken. beer bottles and cigarette packets


Dump current mosque health supplies , beer bottles and cigarette packets is noted.Demonstrators, the police had prepared for the effects of tear gas made ​​of lemon juice, vinegar and store in a specially prepared mixtures where the bottles appeared in the mosque. Found a large number of the mosque in the mask.

And avoids talking to the cameras unnamed mosque muezzin of the mosque, citing authorities found my site had been abandoned to their fate. The muezzin of the mosque did not even claiming that the Imam of the mosque begging them to trying to prevent the demonstrators passed. Church should preserve the mosque's muezzin police said.
The police investigation, then clear it was learned that the mosque.

Haber : Camide iأ§ki ve sigara iأ§tiler! haberi

[Perseveranze]

Mahir Zeynalov ‏@MahirZeynalov 13h My observation: Large number of government supporters are going crazy as protests swell day by day. They say Erdogan told us to keep calm.
Retweeted by Shami Witness

[جوري]

here they're worshiping their alcoholic god

[Jedi_Mindset]

^
Astagfirullah

Erdogan should deport them to the west.

[GuestFellow]

here they're worshiping their alcoholic god

:sl:

Is it wrong that I find this hilarious?

[جوري]

revolt of the dogs what can I say:

[GuestFellow]

^ What was that about?

[جوري]

I guess they let the dogs out :D

[Perseveranze]

Check this out, I found this western newspaper (1921) - The Evening Independent - Google News Archive Search

[جوري]

why do they use such terms as 'pathetically mended' they never have any kindness or gentleness in mannerism. The news is always meant to incite some emotion in you and always of the hateful, disdainful look down upon sort..
Many a well dressed people in this world will hardly have any garment on that day mended or not!
la3an Allah alkuffar wazhlahoum fi dounia wal'akhira..
I can never read anything by them and feel impartiality or just mere passive transmission of news :raging:

[KAding]

why do they use such terms as 'pathetically mended' they never have any kindness or gentleness in mannerism. The news is always meant to incite some emotion in you and always of the hateful, disdainful look down upon sort..
Many a well dressed people in this world will hardly have any garment on that day mended or not!
la3an Allah alkuffar wazhlahoum fi dounia wal'akhira..
I can never read anything by them and feel impartiality or just mere passive transmission of news :raging:

I think you are reading too much into it. It clear says "if the wearer be very poor" that the veil may be "pathetically mended", not that it is always pathetically mended.

Also keep in mind this article is from 1921, and language is not static. Even now the primary dictionary definition of "pathetic" means "arousing sympathetic sadness and compassion", not arousing "arousing scornful pity". In fact, apparently the latter meaning only surfaced for the first time in 1937, more than 15 years after the article.

1590s, "affecting the emotions, exciting the passions," from Middle French pathétique "moving, stirring, affecting" (16c.), from Late Latin patheticus, from Greek pathetikos "subject to feeling, sensitive, capable of emotion," from pathetos "liable to suffer," verbal adjective of pathein "to suffer" (see pathos). Meaning "arousing pity, pitiful" is first recorded 1737. Colloquial sense of "so miserable as to be ridiculous" is attested from 1937. Related: Pathetical (1570s); pathetically. Pathetic fallacy (1856, first used by Ruskin) is the attribution of human qualities to inanimate objects.
http://etymonline.com/?term=pathetic

[جوري]

Lol at your attempt to water this down in fact the language and action has only evolved to worse since don't you think? If that was attempt at good now a days between caricatures and frank abuse, invasion and yes vile language just the same. Does make your attempt up there all the more sincere- those were the days after all when beaches were closed to 'dogs and Arabs'

Best,

[Logikon]

Well turkey is a islamic country, majority muslims, wouldnt it be wise to apply some islamic laws then?

　
"Some"?
How about Muslim laws for Muslims and other laws for non-muslims?

[جوري]

"Some"?
How about Muslim laws for Muslims and other laws for non-muslims?

Is that how the law works? I guess it does in the west. Gitmo for instance for Muslims while a small hotel room for Anders Behring Breivik.

You guys are a funny bunch!

[Jedi_Mindset]

　
"Some"?
How about Muslim laws for Muslims and other laws for non-muslims?

Doesnt work that way, none country ever done that if non-muslims want to drink, party et cetera, they can go on holiday to a non-muslim country. westerners always talk about 'respecting the law of the country' well if you enter a muslim country you need to follow their laws. I am a dutch muslim and i respect the laws here unless some of these goes against my religion.

[Independent]

Doesnt work that way, none country ever done that if non-muslims want to drink, party et cetera, they can go on holiday to a non-muslim country. westerners always talk about 'respecting the law of the country' well if you enter a muslim country you need to follow their laws.

Sounds simple in principle, but in practice this is not so easy. In a western country everyone can choose to drink, or not to drink. Muslim or non Muslim. Whereas in some Muslim countries, no one can drink. So it's not really equal treatment you're asking for here...

Also, although Turkey is today no longer the cosmopolitan place it once was, and almost everyone is Muslim, many of those Muslims feel it's ok to drink and other haram practices. You may say 'in that case they're not really Muslims' - but in that case, Turkey is also far from a 98% Muslim country...

[Perseveranze]

　
"Some"?
How about Muslim laws for Muslims and other laws for non-muslims?

Strictly speaking, that's how Shariah works, Non-Muslims go by their own laws, but in highly Muslim populated area's, although they still go by their own laws, in the public sphere they have to follow Shariah (ie. No drinking alcohol in public, even though this would be ok in a pub or at home). They're also tried by their own courts, unless the crime involves a Muslim, in which case Shariah courts would take precedence.

But in area's that mainly have a Non-Muslim population, then historically, they were just left to mind their own business with the tax (jizya) collector coming every once in a while.

All this is contrary to democracy where the rule of the majority applies to everyone, even if they don't wish to follow those laws.

[Independent]

All this is contrary to democracy where the rule of the majority applies to everyone, even if they don't wish to follow those laws.

I don't think it is - see my post above. It's about freedom of access and choice.

(Although I agree with the rest of your post.)

[جوري]

They're also tried by their own courts, unless the crime involves a Muslim, in which case Shariah courts would take precedence.

Many of the Christians of Egypt prefer to seek Islamic courts especially with regards to their divorces, they don't find justice in their courts in fact which forces women to go back and remain married to abusive husbands or be a property of his should she run away. I think it is only humanitarian to have one court system that has justice for all than have them live under their own oppressive laws. Also what some consider 'freedom & choice' impinges on the rights of others. I personally had two very brilliant friends killed by a drunk driver. His freedom shouldn't override public good or the rights of others to life. They were two doctors who died, he was one loser who lived and got off with no punishment worthy of the crime he committed!

:w:

[Independent]

His freedom shouldn't override public good or the rights of others to life.

You are making a (non religious) argument for banning alcohol, Jedi is making a comparison between Islamic and western states in the way they apply laws - which is different.

The principle of fair application of laws could apply to anything including the way people dress, sexual equality etc.

[جوري]

You are making a (non religious) argument for banning alcohol, Jedi is making a comparison between Islamic and western states in the way they apply laws - which is different.

Rather my argument stems from religion and the belief that the system :Allah::swt: placed for mankind is the only system that works and the only one with practical application that works for everyone. Those who dislike it only have criminal intent on the mind or rather prefer getting away with criminal behavior!

The principle of fair application of laws could apply to anything including the way people dress, sexual equality etc.

This is filler, I don't see how it belongs here!

best,

[momo3388]

I don't know what & who to believe... If only the media would show it as it is rather than take sides.

[observer]

i respect the laws here unless some of these goes against my religion.

So what happens if you feel a law goes against your religion?

[GuestFellow]

So what happens if you feel a law goes against your religion?

You complain like any other person.

[observer]

You complain like any other person.

This is what I feel is strongest about the secular system - if we don't like a law, we can argue for it to be changed and indeed can change it!

[جوري]

This is what I feel is strongest about the secular system - if we don't like a law, we can argue for it to be changed and indeed can change it!

Actually it doesn't change it all. You just have the illusion that your voice matters when in fact it doesn't matter!

best,

[GuestFellow]

Actually it doesn't change it all. You just have the illusion that your voice matters when in fact it doesn't matter!

best,

That's so true.

[observer]

Actually it doesn't change it all. You just have the illusion that your voice matters when in fact it doesn't matter!

best,

Maybe in the short term, but long term we can. In Britain think women's votes, death penalty, decriminalising homosexuality - all done because of popular campaigns. You're never going to change laws overnight.

[جوري]

Maybe in the short term, but long term we can. In Britain think women's votes, death penalty, decriminalising homosexuality - all done because of popular campaigns. You're never going to change laws overnight.

No, moral degeneracy is the natural course of secular societies of course all you need are lobbies of homos and voila. It isn't because of women voting and btw women in Islam could vote since its inception. Their voices were only taken away by traditional societies where the laws are those of whimsey than reason.. not unlike the secularist societies of today whose moral compass sways to who's dishing out the dollars.

best,

[observer]

No, moral degeneracy is the natural course of secular societies of course all you need are lobbies of homos and voila.

And that's the end of the thread for me. Ridiculous.

[جوري]

Yeah, talk about ridiculous:

One often wonders if those toting & drumming such 'freedoms' can keep a straight face!

best,

[GuestFellow]

Maybe in the short term, but long term we can. In Britain think women's votes, death penalty, decriminalising homosexuality - all done because of popular campaigns. You're never going to change laws overnight.

Yes that is the problem with the British system. Laws in the long-term can change in accordance with whatever people want regardless of whether it is right or wrong.

[faithandpeace]

Assalamu alaikum. I'm not an expert with what is going on right now in Turkey but it doesn't sound good. It is bad enough for external forces to be trying to destroy Islam and it is another thing when people are trying to collapse it from within. I have had more than my share of "Muslims" who seem to be opposed to anything and everything Islamic (i.e. hijab, Sharia, not drinking alcohol, etc.). It sounds like these protestors want a watered-down secularized Westernized capitalist version of Islam. If people want diet Islam or Islam-lite accompanied with secular Western values that are unIslamic then that is up to them but they cease to be Muslims upon doing so. Islam is not a pick and choose religion. It is pretty sad when a Muslim-majority country wants the "freedom" to drink alcohol but opposes the freedom for women to wear hijab. That is not Islam. That is Shaytan. :raging:

[Independent]

If people want diet Islam or Islam-lite accompanied with secular Western values that are unIslamic then that is up to them but they cease to be Muslims upon doing so.

It would seem that many of them do indeed want 'Islam-lite'. Therefore, the logic of your post is that we should no longer look on Turkey as a 98% Muslim country. Half the Muslims aren't Muslim enough.

In which case, Erdogan no longer has a sufficient constituency to introduce full sharia law etc. Sharia law should only be introduced where there is genuine mass consent or else it becomes an act of repression.

The issue with Erdogan is not just individual measures like alcohol restrictions, but his general trend towards authoritarianism. He wants to set himself up as a new kind of President with power to over-rule just about any other institution. Even if you like Erdogan, what about who follows him? Once you give total power to one man it's very hard to take it away again without a revolution.

[جوري]

What do you know of Sharia law to qualify it as an act of 'repression'?

[جوري]

The protesters of Zucotti park were taken seriously- they really managed to change repressive American policies!!
We all know the game being played with Turkey and why exactly. They've already sent Zionists the likes of George Soros on him as was done before with the attempt at an Islamic economic market of Malaysia- and Yeah Israel had to issue that apology and he has an economy that's the envy of many of his European counterparts. Of course they'll come with their BS and speeches. Well frankly he was democratically elected and there is a parliament and he in fact made no changes that aren't the norm in Europe. So enough BS, enough of it the world has had enough and it is uprising and the counter revolts as fostered by these devils have no aims or momentum so good luck there!

[Independent]

What do you know of Sharia law to qualify it as an act of 'repression'?

For non Muslims it's repressive, it's ok for Muslims.

[جوري]

For non Muslims it's repressive, it's ok for Muslims.

I didn't ask your opinion, I asked you what it is? Scholarship isn't cheap. Try it.. I am expecting a nice thesis with the fixins'

best,

[Independent]

he was democratically elected and there is a parliament and he in fact made no changes that aren't the norm in Europe.

Yes he was and indeed he was/is still looked on favourably in the west. However, what he now proposes is to circumvent the democratic limitations on his personal power. He wants to make the presidency all-powerful so that he himself can step neatly into the role. It's exactly what Putin did.

[جوري]

Yes he was and indeed he was/is still looked on favourably in the west. However, what he now proposes is to circumvent the democratic limitations on his personal power. He wants to make the presidency all-powerful so that he himself can step neatly into the role. It's exactly what Putin did.

I have already summed up the real troubles with him and all of a sudden here:

The protesters of Zucotti park were taken seriously- they really managed to change repressive American policies!!
We all know the game being played with Turkey and why exactly. They've already sent Zionists the likes of George Soros on him as was done before with the attempt at an Islamic economic market of Malaysia- and Yeah Israel had to issue that apology and he has an economy that's the envy of many of his European counterparts. Of course they'll come with their BS and speeches. Well frankly he was democratically elected and there is a parliament and he in fact made no changes that aren't the norm in Europe. So enough BS, enough of it the world has had enough and it is uprising and the counter revolts as fostered by these devils have no aims or momentum so good luck there!

best,

[جوري]

so civilized, so western.. that's what the minority of pigs are fighting for & wish to impose it on the majority:

[Futuwwa]

The issue with Erdogan is not just individual measures like alcohol restrictions, but his general trend towards authoritarianism. He wants to set himself up as a new kind of President with power to over-rule just about any other institution. Even if you like Erdogan, what about who follows him? Once you give total power to one man it's very hard to take it away again without a revolution.

Please don't jump on the bandwagon and assume that because the protestors say so, it must be true.

Turkey today is far less authoritarian than it was before AKP came into power. Then, civil rights were practically nonexistent and the state always right in any conflict between a citizen and a public institution. Civil rights have improved under AKP rule, not been rolled back.

The only power Erdogan has transferred to himself is power he has taken away from unelected generals and bureaucrats, and given to the elected government of Turkey.

[جوري]

The only power Erdogan has transferred to himself is power he has taken away from unelected generals and bureaucrats

In fact they'd to give up that to get into the EU.

[Independent]

Turkey today is far less authoritarian than it was before AKP came into power. Then, civil rights were practically nonexistent and the state always right in any conflict between a citizen and a public institution. Civil rights have improved under AKP rule, not been rolled back.

The protests in Turkey have been very surprising because there are many very obvious positive things about Erdogan and the current government. You could look at his record both ways. In the first phase of his rule you could praise him for increasing the ability of the democratically elected government to overcome entrenched interests (as well as a successful economic record).

However, if you look ahead at what he is planning it's hard not to question him. He is not allowed to stand as Prime Minister for a third term. To get round that, he is trying to hugely increase the powers of the presidency (which is currently mostly symbolic). Then, lo and behold, he can become president himself and continue to rule. (Just as Putin did.)

It's really hard not to see this as the action of a man who loves personal power too much to give it up. Even if his rule is positive and successful, you have to ask questions. Because once the power is centralised in the hands of one man, that's the way it tends to stay.

The riots are surprising because they started over something seemingly so small. But the issue is symbolic of the way Erdogan has changed. He has handled the protest very badly and enflamed the situation unnecessarily. Power corrupts everyone eventually, and I wonder if it is not starting to affect Erdogan.

[جوري]

If anyone has any doubt that the whole Turkish protest is any other than a western ploy to down with anything remotely Islamic that's successful, then let them compare contrast this with the Greek protests where the govt. Actually killed protesters and used illegal weapons against them or the one in Spain, recent memory, recent times. In fact Turkey is to be envied by those countries.
If you've a keen discerning eye and an understanding of history then you'll be able to cut through the crap and the BSers dispensing with it just as easily!

:w:

[Independent]

let them compare contrast this with the Greek protests where the govt. Actually killed protesters and used illegal weapons against them or the one in Spain, recent memory, recent times.

There have been fatalities among the protesters in Turkey also.

If anyone has any doubt that the whole Turkish protest is any other than a western ploy to down with anything remotely Islamic that's successful

Basically you say this because you always say it.

It's extraordinarily unlikely that the west would want to destabilise Erodgan, the leader of a Nato and (potentially) EU member state. Like the US, the UK and and France, Erdogan is strongly anti-Assad. And up till now many western governments have looked sympathetically on his attempts to take power from the army etc, because they believed his intentions were sincere. Now they are not so sure.

The western media don't quite know what to make of the protests. They sound like a typical European protest (environmentalists protecting trees). They look like a typical Arab Spring protest (yet another famous city square). But they are very different.

Erdogan has handled the protests very incompetently, which is surprisingly considering his record to date. Heavy handed police action at the start enflamed attitudes unnecessarily. You really get the sense he has lost patience with anyone who contradicts him.

The real difference these days is the internet - videos of police brutality go round in seconds. Ten years ago, you could be in the next street away and know nothing about it. These protests are linked above all by increased by public awareness. Erdogan has imprisoned more journalists that almost any other state in the world, but he can't stop youtube.

[جوري]

There have been fatalities among the protesters in Turkey also.

That's how it rolls with mob scenes usually!

Basically you say this because you always say it.

This is a meaningless statement!

It's extraordinarily unlikely that the west would want to destabilise Erodgan, the leader of a Nato and (potentially) EU member state. Like the US, the UK and and France, Erdogan is strongly anti-Assad. And up till now many western governments have looked sympathetically on his attempts to take power from the army etc, because they believed his intentions were sincere. Now they are not so sure.

It is very likely given the presence of the colonial settler state of Israel in the region, just given the flotilla incident not to mention, their new economic independence, and new relations which such countries as Egypt.
West was never anti-Asad anymore than it was anti-Mubarak or anti-gaddafi, and use your fingers to google pics all the lovey dovey pix of them together .. it is a matter of strategic play at the right moment before all is lost. Already foreign individuals were caught in the Turkey protests and they were there as well to play the stock market as Soros did before with Malaysia.

The western media don't quite know what to make of the protests. They sound like a typical European protest (environmentalists protecting trees). They look like a typical Arab Spring protest (yet another famous city square). But they are very different.

Of course they don't know what to make of people defiling mosques and drinking liquor.. I mean how do they contain their happiness?

Erdogan has handled the protests very incompetently, which is surprisingly considering his record to date. Heavy handed police action at the start enflamed attitudes unnecessarily. You really get the sense he has lost patience with anyone who contradicts him.

In fact it is Erdogan's govt. that's picking up the bill for the looting that happened including the very statue of Kamal Ataturk their idol.. do you not watch and read the news like the rest of us?

The real difference these days is the internet - videos of police brutality go round in seconds. Ten years ago, you could be in the next street away and know nothing about it. These protests are linked above all by increased by public awareness. Erdogan has imprisoned more journalists that almost any other state in the world, but he can't stop youtube.

Yes glad the net showed the thugs as non-turks, drunkards and public urinators. I guess it is what you make of it right? When it is anti-Islamic the net is to be praised when it is pro-Islamic it is all conspiracy theories.

like I said before and time and again, you've no credibility, none whatsoever!

best,

[Independent]

West was never anti-Asad anymore than it was anti-Mubarak or anti-gaddafi

The difficulty with your 'analysis' (although to dignify this claptrap with a term like analysis is to give you a credit you in no way deserve) is that it just doesn't ever fit the facts.

Of course the west was, and is, anti Assad. Ask the Russians and the Iranians.

You respond to each event with your usual dismal anti-western reflex action, even if it totally contradicts whatever you said last week. If you ever remember.

[جوري]

The difficulty with your 'analysis' (although to dignify this claptrap with a term like analysis is to give you a credit you in no way deserve) is that it just doesn't ever fit the facts.

lol what a dynamo of a hyperbole!
I guess padding is best when politically bankrupt and socially awkward and logically inept!

Of course the west was, and is, anti Assad. Ask the Russians and the Iranians.

NO, they're very pro Assad and his regime, try news that's not aimed at five year olds!


lookey here .. even Israeli news think so!

You respond to each event with your usual dismal anti-western reflex action, even if it totally contradicts whatever you said last week. If you ever remember.

like what pray do tell.. I like how you amuse me!

[جوري]

kaffirs truly are all of the same creed, liars & charlatans. Here they're proclaiming that these hundreds of thousands are anti- Erdogan when in fact they're pro Erdogan came out in his support.. will wonders ever cease? Probably the same reason their spokespersons everywhere including those who troll on board can't tell the difference between truth & fiction.

http://www.islammemo.cc/akhbar/arab/...17/174326.html

[KAding]

=&]
kaffirs truly are all of the same creed, liars & charlatans. Here they're proclaiming that these hundreds of thousands are anti- Erdogan when in fact they're pro Erdogan came out in his support.. will wonders ever cease? Probably the same reason their spokespersons everywhere including those who troll on board can't tell the difference between truth & fiction.

http://www.islammemo.cc/akhbar/arab/...17/174326.html

Err, look at the caption in your picture. It is clearly the same as the one on this page:
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/15/wo...sts/index.html

As you can also see the title "Anti-government protests in Turkey" is for the overall slideshow, which includes many pictures (most of them of the anti-government protests, which is also the reason supporters of Erdogan are rallying in the first place!).

The description of this picture is in the caption, which states:

Tens of thousands attend a rally to hear Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan speak at the the Kazlicesma meeting area in Istanbul on Sunday, June 16, a day after he ordered a crackdown on anti-government protesters at Gezi Park. Protests that began as a demonstration against the planned demolition of the park have grown into general anti-government dissent across the nation.

How is that a "lie"? It clearly states this is at a rally to "hear Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan". How could you even confuse it as otherwise, since there is a huge picture of Erdogan in the background!

[جوري]

Err, look at the caption in your picture. It is clearly the same as the one on this page:
http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/15/wo...sts/index.html

Err, that is not what it originally said is it as shown in the first picture!
small captions isn't what remains in people's memories when they click on slides to see pictures entitled 'anti govt. protests'!

As you can also see the title "Anti-government protests in Turkey" is for the overall slideshow, which includes many pictures (most of them of the anti-government protests, which is also the reason supporters of Erdogan are rallying in the first place!).

lol yes.. and I am glad of the disparity for those who read!
your point being?

How is that a "lie"? It clearly states this is at a rally to "hear Turkish Prime Minister Erdogan". How could you even confuse it as otherwise, since there is a huge picture of Erdogan in the background!

Not sure why you insist on asking such stupid questions? Can't you not see that there's a difference between what you've linked and what was originally released?

best,

[Roasted Cashew]

As you can also see the title "Anti-government protests in Turkey" is for the overall slideshow, which includes many pictures (most of them of the anti-government protests, which is also the reason supporters of Erdogan are rallying in the first place!).

But you would agree that is is very misleading for those who just glance over without reading captions...if the **** title is for anti-government protests then put those **** pictures...why include pro-government as well..???

[جوري]

But you would agree that is is very misleading for those who just glance over without reading captions...if the **** title is for anti-government protests then put those **** pictures...why include pro-government as well..???

I don't agree with you on much but you are correct here, also they still didn't retract their error in totality until Turkish media put them to shame!

[KAding]

Err, that is not what it originally said is it as shown in the first picture!

Then what does it say in the first picture according to you? The two pictures appear identical to me, the slideshow title is identical, the caption appears identical. It is unfortunate the article you linked to doesn't actually provide (1) a clear screenshot of the CNN page or (2) a link to the supposedly misleading CNN article.

But from a little more googling I think this is a link to the slideshow: http://edition.cnn.com/2013/06/01/wo...urkey-protests

Good news! It appears the "kaffir liars and charlatans" at CNN have by now slightly altered the slideshow title to "Demonstration in Turkey". That should please you, no? ;)

[جوري]

Then what does it say in the first picture according to you? The two pictures appear identical to me, the slideshow title is identical, the caption appears identical. It is unfortunate the article you linked to doesn't actually provide (1) a clear screenshot of the CNN page or (2) a link to the supposedly misleading CNN article.

I am not big on games are you?

Good news! It appears the "kaffir liars and charlatans" at CNN have by now slightly altered the slideshow title to "Demonstration in Turkey". That should please you, no? ;)

Why would it please me that an error is retracted? Why make a very obvious and intended error in the first place?

[KAding]

But you would agree that is is very misleading for those who just glance over without reading captions...if the **** title is for anti-government protests then put those **** pictures...why include pro-government as well..???

Seems pretty innocent to me, as everything in those pictures is in the context of the anti-government demonstrations, including the pro-Erdogan rally! The only reason Erdogan is rallying his supporters is because of anti-government protests! Again, there is a huge portrait of Erdogan in the background and the caption clearly explains it. You'd have to pretty careless to get fooled like that.

However, I agree that the title could be clearer. And apparently they have now in fact done so and renamed the slideshow to "Demonstrations in Turkey". Much ado about nothing really.

But talking about deception, what about this one:

kaffirs truly are all of the same creed, liars & charlatans. Here they're proclaiming that these hundreds of thousands are anti- Erdogan when in fact they're pro Erdogan came out in his support..

Where have CNN ever "proclaimed" these were "hundreds of thousands of anti-Erdogan" protesters? Never... It is just all blown out of proportion to yet again be able to curse the "kuffar liars and charlatans".

[KAding]

Why make a very obvious and intended error in the first place?

Doesn't the fact that it got corrected indicate that they 'error' was never 'intended' in the first place?

[جوري]

Doesn't the fact that it got corrected indicate that they 'error' was never 'intended' in the first place?

Not at all, it means that after Turkish media exposed them, they tried to salvage whatever is left of their credibility as a corporate news agency!

best,

[جوري]

"proclaimed" these were "hundreds of thousands of anti-Erdogan" protesters?

Right there on the caption superimposed on the picture, do you not see it? If you don't please get your vision checked. It is not a one title fits all, when I click on something that says anti-govt. protests and see hundreds of thousands of people present, that is the image that is impressed on the mind, not the fine writing and not a later retraction!

best,

[Independent]

The trouble with having a dumb theory is that events keep contradicting it. Latest news is that Erdogan is threatening to use the army to quell the protests. This is of course the same army which is supposed to be on the side of the protesters, ready to seize power in a secular coup to topple Erdogan.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-22938860

Looks like 'Apologise for Naught' owes us all an apology. Oh - I see you changed your caption :)

[Perseveranze]

Erdogan finally growing a back bone it seems

[Samiun]

I find Erdogan confusing, sometimes he supports the West but at the same time he also supports Islamic ruling. I find it also puzzling what are the protesters doing? Although I'm really not surprised why they do not want Islam as a lifestyle because they're too secularized during the era of Kamal Attaturk. When I went there, you can see they sell alcohol in restaurants and even start to get drunk during new year's eve by having something like a barrel filled up with alcoholic drinks.

[جوري]

Erdogan finally growing a back bone it seems

He has to take baby steps not to lose his head quit literally like his predecessors.

I find Erdogan confusing, sometimes he supports the West but at the same time he also supports Islamic ruling. I find it also puzzling what are the protesters doing? Although I'm really not surprised why they do not want Islam as a lifestyle because they're too secularized during the era of Kamal Attaturk. When I went there, you can see they sell alcohol in restaurants and even start to get drunk during new year's eve by having something like a barrel filled up with alcoholic drinks.

Rather he inherited a very secular very anti-islamic, Muslim majority country, and is trying to change it slowly. He has been consistent, if you'll look back even to the flotilla incident!


:w:

[جوري]

btw let me clarify something to those who are somewhat taken by the kaffir stance, who can barely save face from just the previous page.
The govt. has every right to intervene to to protect its citizens from mobsters. Turkey has a parliament, and every profession has what we can classify as a union what we call in Arabic 'niaqabaa', their complaints whether low pay or vacation time or whatever grievance goes directly though that not though streets or mosques to loot and have the tax payers pick up the tap and if their goals are political then they form a political party however small and have their representation in the parliament. Frankly I see this as nothing more than a stupid ploy not unlike those mentioned in the protocols to cause upheaval and civil unrest in the entire Muslim majority world!

[Independent]

The govt. has every right to intervene to to protect its citizens from mobsters

The numbers are far too large to dismiss as mobsters. You are a politcal/religious racist - anyone who doesn't fit the right colour of religion, you despise. There is no possible mechanism for some mysterious conspirator to galvanise tens of thousands of people for this protest. And it's utterly ridiculous that anyone would chose the cutting down of some trees as the issue to start a rebellion.

It's a bizarre protest all right, but it is genuine enough. This is a case where truth is stranger than fiction. Disappointingly, Erdogan has taken the Mubarack/Assad/Gaddafi route and blamed 'foreign' influences. But it's not clear he is referring to the west (if he's referring to anyone real at all). His main enemies are other Muslims.

Turkey has a parliament

Yes it does and it is to be admired as a proper functioning parliament that is rare in the Muslim world. That's why it's worrying that Erdogan wants to emasculate it and set himself up as President. In the exact reversal of an ideal Islamic leader (who doesn't look for power but is asked to take it) Erdogan is changing the constitution for the sole purpose of prolonging his own, personal power. The company that is to develop and profit from Taksim Square has links to the AKP.

a stupid ploy not unlike those mentioned in the protocols

I'd like to think that most people don't realise that here she is referring to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, which ranks alongside Mein Kampf as one the most evil books in history - and which was indeed a particular favourite of Adolf himself. He got some of his best ideas from reading it.

The Protocols was long ago exposed as a childish fraud - that of a child of the Devil. It claims to be a record of a conference of evil Jews in the early 20th century. In fact it is blatantly plagiarised from other books including one written many decades earlier. It is absolutely impossible for it to be what it says it is. This book is practically the definition of anti semiticism. Unbelievable that in 2013 we should still have to talk about this pathetic, vicious fraud that directly contributed to the gas chambers.

[جوري]

The numbers are far too large to dismiss as mobsters. You are a politcal/religious racist - anyone who doesn't fit the right colour of religion, you despise. There is no possible mechanism for some mysterious conspirator to galvanise tens of thousands of people for this protest. And it's utterly ridiculous that anyone would chose the cutting down of some trees as the issue to start a rebellion.

It's a bizarre protest all right, but it is genuine enough. This is a case where truth is stranger than fiction. Disappointingly, Erdogan has taken the Mubarack/Assad/Gaddafi route and blamed 'foreign' influences. But it's not clear he is referring to the west (if he's referring to anyone real at all). His main enemies are other Muslims.

yes I've seen the numbers courtesy of CNN!
I don't particularly care for your classification of my person!
as for foreign influences.. this entire scenario is played out in the protocols of zion yeah 'fiction' imitating life to a T.
Muslims don't loot mosques and drink liquor inside.

I can't bring myself to respond to so much drivel. Do you need so much padding to make so many non statements?

[جوري]

The whole gas chamber shbeal has no effect on me whatsoever we've played the anti Semitic card long enough it would actually pay if you look for its definition in the dictionary as I am bored of your platitudes - they're plowing Palestinians as we speak from their homes and I am to feel bad for a European caused problem some 60 yrs ago which an entire country Is paying for by sweat blood and tears and the rest of us via taxation!

[Independent]

The whole gas chamber shbeal has no effect on me whatsoever

Why would it? You share the same ideology.

At least Goebbels was honest enough to admit that The Protocols was a fake - although a very useful fake if killing Jews is your ideology. Or what was it you called them before? 'Jewey-Jewey McJews'? But Goebbels is dead and he can spread no more evil fictions - unlike yourself.

[جوري]

Why would it? You share the same ideology.

Rather the ideology is alive and well via today's zionists and in lieu of a five year holocaust from which many non Jews suffered it is a continual 60+ year humiliation torture, murder, displacement and vilification!

At least Goebbels was honest enough to admit that The Protocols was a fake - although a very useful fake if killing Jews is your ideology. Or what was it you called them before? 'Jewey-Jewey McJews'? But Goebbels is dead and he can spread no more evil fictions - unlike yourself.

even if it were fiction they're carrying the fiction out rather well!
Does your insistence on its fictionality make the events taking place any less a fact?

[Independent]

even if it were fiction they're carrying the fiction out rather well

The authors worked out what anti semites would like to hear - what would fit all their prejudices and bigotry - and then they wrote something that miraculously seemed to fit. What a surprise.

It fits the bigot's view because that's what it was written for.

[جوري]

The authors worked out what anti semites would like to hear - what would fit all their prejudices and bigotry - and then they wrote something that miraculously seemed to fit. What a surprise.

As stated prior even if fictional does it change the fact that what's written is carried out to a t?
Murderers can copy fictional books what's your point?
They've themselves admitted to it in the book 'An empire of their own' guess they were self hating and not truthful there either?


Best,

[Independent]

As stated prior even if fictional does it change the fact that what's written is carried out to a t?

Yes it does make a difference because this book is an account of conference that's supposed to justify the whole Zionist conspiracy. It's supposed to be the proof, the moment when the Jews planned their world domination strategy. But it's a fake, and most of it was written as a critique of Napoleon III's government in France, many decades earlier. The source book wasn't even about the Jews, it was about Napoleon III. So if you think it's an amazing prediction of reality, that just shows how very far from reality is the place you inhabit.

[جوري]

Yes it does make a difference because this book is an account of conference that's supposed to justify the whole Zionist conspiracy. It's supposed to be the proof, the moment when the Jews planned their world domination strategy. But it's a fake, and most of it was written as a critique of Napoleon III's government in France, many decades earlier. The source book wasn't even about the Jews, it was about Napoleon III. So if you think it's an amazing prediction of reality, that just shows how very far from reality is the place you inhabit.

as stated prior and repeatedly life here is imitating 'fictional art' so in fact and in spite of the tantrums what's written 'bigotry or not is what's taking place!
Anyone is free to read it do a little compare contrast!


Best,

[Roasted Cashew]

Muslims don't loot mosques and drink liquor inside.

Man, the Turkish police is very kind hearted...if I was there I would have shoved those liquor bottles up their asses...secularist scum..

I usually don't have a problem with secularists but these *******s support a kind of secularism which has a very heavy Ataturkish slant on it in which Muslims are not allowed to enter universities just because they are wearing a Hijab. These scum would support military takeovers just to shove their secularism down other people's throats...

Also read somewhere that the military was able to stay secular because they would purge out military personnel who had mosque going relatives... I usually blame Islamists for their shortcomings most of the time but these secularist scum are of a special kind, have none of my sympathy...

[جوري]

The whole thing is a scam- I am having computer troubles but have an incredible political analysis of what's going on in the entire region- it's a fire ignited to eat us from within and then the 'good guys' come in like a deus ex machina to save the day err loot the day instate same regime that has served them well for decades while changing faces perhaps - same scum is cycling through the ME. Does anyone ever wonder what McCain et al are doing there in Egypt, Syria, Turkey etc?
This time it will blow in their face though in a really huge way :ia:

[جوري]

Erdogan should deal with the protesters the same way the U.S dealt with 'occupy Wall Street' they reduced them to a laughing stock slapped them with citations arrested them you name it!

[Roasted Cashew]

Erdogan should deal with the protesters the same way the U.S dealt with 'occupy Wall Street' they reduced them to a laughing stock slapped them with citations arrested them you name it!

Exactly....I usually don't have a problem with secularists but these *******s support a kind of secularism which has a very heavy Ataturkish slant on it in which Muslims are not allowed to enter universities just because they are wearing a Hijab. These scum would support military takeovers just to shove their secularism down other people's throats...

Also read somewhere that the military was able to stay secular because they would purge out military personnel who had mosque going relatives... I usually blame Islamists for their shortcomings, but these secularist scum are of a special kind, have none of my sympathy...

[Ali_008]

:sl: everyone

I'm least surprised to see this uprising in Turkey. I had the good fortune of visiting Istanbul in 2008, I was there only for a couple of days as it was a transit, but it was enough to understand what was going on over there. In Turkey, or particularly Istanbul, you won't find a moderate Muslim. People over there live on extremes. Either you will find a family where the man has a lengthy beard, trousers only till the ankles, a skullcap on, and all the air of a practicing Muslim, or you will find people resembling Lady Gaga with their flashy clothes, a cigarette in one hand and beer in another, tattoos stretching out from under both sleeves, and women walking in bikini tops, and such. My eyes popped upon seeing all that, mostly because it is so evident there are sides already over there. I didn't see a single person who wasn't showing off which side he/she chose.

It was a transit for Switzerland, and when I finally reached there, I found that the hotel manager over there was from Pakistan. I spoke to him about what I saw in Turkey. He was pretty surprised that I expected Turkey to be an Islamic country, because according to him "There are 3 things Turkey is known for: Hagia Sophia, baklava, and strip clubs."

This revolution will get a lot more attention than any other going on in any other Muslim country, because it directly profits the west's interests. Eventually, all of us will just have to wait and see, and undeniably, Obama will come with his Oscar worthy speech. Seriously, I think being an American president requires great acting skills as well. Where I live, our Prime Minister is such an innocent looking man that if he declares war against some country some day, nobody's going to take him seriously. Watching his speeches is like watching paint dry whereas when I see Obama giving a speech, I have to recheck that I'm not watching some movie with an Obama lookalike, by mistake.

[جوري]

I too have been to turkey and concur with your statement - I was with my parents and we stayed in a great hotel everyone was conservative but when I turned on the TV I was astounded by the open porn midday- U.S itself when it comes to basic channels is very conservative so I was dumbfounded and turned it off before anyone else had a look it was a dichotomy half of it reminded me of Egypt and the other half of Greece and they were side by side!

Make no mistake the entire Muslim region is of western interest primarily because of the colonial settler cockroach state of Israel and of course it doesn't hurt to loot us and keep us divided while at it.

I do believe :ia: that khilafah is coming and will start in Syria or bilaad ashaam in general ad that is where Jesus pbuh is meant to descend and all the change that's happening is in concept with the noble verses on the schism that will cause the great divide - and it's not very difficult to see now who belongs where!

:w:

[faithandpeace]

Originally Posted by جوري

The whole gas chamber shbeal has no effect on me whatsoever

Why would it? You share the same ideology.

You are accusing her of being a Nazi and supporting genocide? Why don't you get off of this discussion board and go somewhere else. You are anti-Islamic anyway.

[جوري]

You are accusing her of being a Nazi and supporting genocide? Why don't you get off of this discussion board and go somewhere else. You are anti-Islamic anyway.

Sadly that Was before the edit too -- it is ok for him to be islamophobic, that's en vogue!! -- what he concocts though should rattle the Universe per his standards!

[جوري]

The Turkish protests cost the Turkish govt. between 30-50 billion- very well played, very very well played.

[observer]

The Turkish protests cost the Turkish govt. between 30-50 billion- very well played, very very well played.

I'm not sure who you think this benefits?

[جوري]

Those who've a vested interest in seeing a strong model for an Islamic country with a stable economy collapse!

أضع النقط على الحروف as we say in Arabic!

I am not aggrieved by your beliefs or the other fellow's petty attempts - my interest is for Muslims to collectively wake up and show some solidarity and make a strong stand!

Best,

[observer]

Those who've a vested interest in seeing a strong model for an Islamic country with a stable economy collapse!

But who is that? Because I can't see that a financially weaker Turkey is of benefit as a potential EU partner to either Western Europe or the US.

[جوري]

See what you want to see!

[observer]

See what you want to see!

But I'm asking you a direct question - who do you think this benefits? I see no beneficiaries, what am I missing?

[جوري]

But I'm asking you a direct question - who do you think this benefits? I see no beneficiaries, what am I missing?

My job here isn't to teach you. This is for people who are already advanced in world affairs, not for trolls, malingerers and provocateurs- not only am I not in the mood but my computer isn't helping!

[observer]

My job here isn't to teach you. This is for people who are already advanced in world affairs, not for trolls, malingerers and provocateurs- not only am I not in the mood but my computer isn't helping!

If asking questions makes one a "troll, malingerer or provocateur" then I'm glad to be one. How else can you understand anything without asking? If you don't have an answer, fair enough. I'll stop asking.

[Muhammad]

Let us please stick to the topic of this thread and avoid insulting each other. A number of posts have already been deleted/edited.

[Independent]

................

[KAding]

But I'm asking you a direct question - who do you think this benefits? I see no beneficiaries, what am I missing?

I don't really see it either. At best one can say that there may be some internal political forces in Turkey that can benefit from destabilization. In particular the 'old' secular parties and movement that want to undermine the popularity of Erdogan and the AKP. Much of Erdogans popularity is due to the good economic times in Turkey lately But of course, this strategy would only work if people would not blame the protesters for any economic damage.

In reality foreign parties care mostly about a stable and economically vibrant Turkey with which it is easy to trade, and that is exactly what the AKP has achieved the last 10 years or so. So I don't see why anyone foreign power would want to undermine that.

No, this is clearly an internal Turkish conflict. It is based on the exact same division that is so prevalent throughout the Muslim world: the Islamic vs. secular ideological spit. This together with the Sunni <-> Sh'ia split is clearly one of the biggest destabilizing factors in the region.

[جوري]

'Foreign parties' care only for a stable somewhat obsequious Turkey that enables american bases and is a friend to israel not a strong autonomous turkey with an Islamic model for the region to follow or be allied with that demands apologies when its nationals are executed by the colonial settler state!
It doesn't require much celebration - I am not sure if you believe in what you write or really that clueless!

Best,

[Born_Believer]

I don't really see it either. At best one can say that there may be some internal political forces in Turkey that can benefit from destabilization. In particular the 'old' secular parties and movement that want to undermine the popularity of Erdogan and the AKP. Much of its popularity is of course also due to the good economic times in Turkey lately. But of course, this strategy would only work if people would not blame the protesters for any economic damage.

In reality foreign parties care mostly about a stable and economically vibrant Turkey with which it is easy to trade, and that is exactly what the AKP has achieved the last 10 years or so. So I don't see why anyone foreign power would want to undermine that.

No, this is clearly an internal Turkish conflict. It is based on the exact same division that is so prevalent throughout the Muslim world: the Islamic vs. secular ideological spit. This together with the Sunni <-> Sh'ia split is clearly one of the biggest destabilizing factors in the region.

There is a definite aim to destabilise Turkey, with that I agree but your other points are not so correct. Of course certain internal forces are pushing for removal of Erdogan and other party members but these internal forces are being guided and cajoled by Western intelligence agencies. I'm not sure why the US/UK/France/Germany would care for an economical stable Turkey, yes they have had very good links with the country for many years but for much of that time Turkey was a secular state. Erdogan has slowly edged Turkey towards a more Islamic state and society. Any leader which has attempted such things in the past has attacked by Western intelligence agencies.

So these people in Turkey, involved in trying to over throw a peaceful government are supported in numerous ways by the CIA and all its affiliates.

[observer]

There is a definite aim to destabilise Turkey, with that I agree but your other points are not so correct. Of course certain internal forces are pushing for removal of Erdogan and other party members but these internal forces are being guided and cajoled by Western intelligence agencies. I'm not sure why the US/UK/France/Germany would care for an economical stable Turkey,

Because of the proposed EU membership for one. There is no reason why Europe and the US would want Turkey destabilised. A strong, financially sound Turkey is what the EU needs when they join.

[جوري]

Who says that a strong economic system is the reason for a country to be a member if the EU? How does this apply to countries like Bulgaria or Greece or Slovenia, Latvia or malta etc. do you make up the conditions for membership based on your personal beliefs.?

[observer]

Who says that a strong economic system is the reason for a country to be a member if the EU?
How does this apply to countries like Bulgaria or Greece or Slovenia etc.?

All these countries had to satisfy economic conditions to join. That many countries are in a bad way now bears no relation to that (Greece for example lied about it's finances initially to ease entry). With the state of the EU, and of the Eurozone especially, another country in need of fiscal support is the last thing any EU country wants. It'd be another nail in it's own coffin.

[Born_Believer]

Because of the proposed EU membership for one. There is no reason why Europe and the US would want Turkey destabilised. A strong, financially sound Turkey is what the EU needs when they join.

Syria was one of the West's greatest allies before the US and UK turned against it, what was the reasoning for that?

What you must understand is that we Muslims are targeted, no matter how great and beneficial our economies may be. We aren't being attacked simply for resources or for personal gain, we are being attacked for out way of life and the fact that our religion is the truth. A secular Turkey, even if it is economically weakened will be loved and embraced by the West.

Did the economic power of Spain half a millennium ago stop it from being attacked? The close ties of Syria or Tunisia with the West stop it from being attacked? I could go on and on about the situation with a million more examples but this should suffice.

[جوري]

That's what you proclaim but it has no basis in reality!
Not very difficult and per your pal in an earlier thread to have a complete economic picture of any member country!
The nail in the coffin is coming anyway!

[Independent]

Syria was one of the West's greatest allies before the US and UK turned against it

No it wasn't - Syria has been in the Russian sphere of influence pretty much since independence - which is why Russia is still backing them now. In no way could it ever have been described as a western ally.

Did the economic power of Spain half a millennium ago stop it from being attacked? The close ties of Syria or Tunisia with the West stop it from being attacked? I could go on and on about the situation with a million more examples but this should suffice.

None of these example support your argument. Spain was a Christian country invaded by Muslims - you can hardly blame them for wanting to take it back. Syria is a Russian ally, not western. And Tunisia's Arab Spring took place entirely without apparent interference from anybody - western, Muslim or any other.

We aren't being attacked simply for resources or for personal gain, we are being attacked for out way of life and the fact that our religion is the truth

No, western countries are extremely uninterested in Islam, except as it becomes a problem in the context of Al Qaeda etc.

[KAding]

There is a definite aim to destabilise Turkey, with that I agree but your other points are not so correct. Of course certain internal forces are pushing for removal of Erdogan and other party members but these internal forces are being guided and cajoled by Western intelligence agencies.

Based on what evidence? What motives do Western countries have to destabilize Turkey? All-in-all Turkey is a good friend of the West. I can't think of a single major contentious issue between any of the major Western powers and Turkey. Turkey is a partner in NATO and there isn't any prospect of that changing. Even on Syria Western powers and Turkey are on the same line.

Sure, Turkey has changed over the last decade or so, especially economically, but how have any of these changes negatively impacted Western countries?

I'm not sure why the US/UK/France/Germany would care for an economical stable Turkey, yes they have had very good links with the country for many years but for much of that time Turkey was a secular state. Erdogan has slowly edged Turkey towards a more Islamic state and society. Any leader which has attempted such things in the past has attacked by Western intelligence agencies.

An economically strong Turkey is good for trade. More trade is good for European businesses as well, which means more employment and more money. What policy in particular has Erdogan pursued that is against Western interests?

I think you are completely overrating the importance of Islam in Western foreign policy. Most Western countries have perfectly good relations with Saudi Arabia or the Gulf States for example. Yet these countries cleary have a considerably more "Islamic state and society". Erdogan and the AKP are simply not an enemy of the West.

So these people in Turkey, involved in trying to over throw a peaceful government are supported in numerous ways by the CIA and all its affiliates.

Again, based on what evidence? Don't you agree that leftists and secularists in Turkey have plenty of reasons themselves why the would demonstrate against Erdogan? They don't need a CIA to tell them that. The CIA doesn't and can't pay tens of thousands of demonstrators to protest. This is an internal Turkish political conflict.

[KAding]

Syria was one of the West's greatest allies before the US and UK turned against it, what was the reasoning for that?

^o). Since when? Relations between the Assad regime and the West have always been very very difficult. Just think of the Syrian conflict with Israel, the good relations it has with Iran, its role in Lebanon, it clearly choosing the side of the Soviet Union during the Cold War, etc...

What you must understand is that we Muslims are targeted, no matter how great and beneficial our economies may be. We aren't being attacked simply for resources or for personal gain, we are being attacked for out way of life and the fact that our religion is the truth. A secular Turkey, even if it is economically weakened will be loved and embraced by the West.

I think Erdogan is a moderate. Sure, he is a conservative who values Islamic traditions. But he can in no way be compared to, say, Ayatollah Khomeini or other quite extreme believers in the virtues of Islamic government. Right now I would be more concerned about Erdogans desire to stay in power than his supposed desire to turn Turkey into an Islamic state.

It is a mistake to believe that (1) Islam is by definition the enemy of the West and (2) Western governments by definition see Islam as an enemy.

[observer]

What you must understand is that we Muslims are targeted, no matter how great and beneficial our economies may be. We aren't being attacked simply for resources or for personal gain, we are being attacked for out way of life and the fact that our religion is the truth.

No, you're not. That is an incredibly paranoid viewpoint not borne out by any facts.

[جوري]

Erdogan is a Muslim veiled wife and daughters that's what the contention is!

You've not been accurate with other things on this thread neither is your pal so why should your thoughts on the matter actually matter?

Best,

[KAding]

No, western countries are extremely uninterested in Islam, except as it becomes a problem in the context of Al Qaeda etc.

Indeed, exemplified by the fact the West has perfectly good relations with most Muslim countries, including those that claim to practice Sharia law!

[KAding]

Erdogan is a Muslim veiled wife and daughters that's what the contention is!

And? Many of the policies that Erdogan is pushing to, for example, allow veiled women into universities or in certain jobs are completely in line with policies in most Western countries. I personally think it completely bizarre that these things were banned before in countries like Turkey or Egypt. Good thing that Erdogan is changing that.

Western powers don't decide foreign policy on whether women can wear a veil or not. Heck, women can't even drive in Saudi Arabia and it is widely considered one the better US allies in the Arab world.

[جوري]

Yes innit strange? Completely on line but apparently what's good enough for Europe isn't good enough for the Muslim world!
The rest I'll classify as your inner child's rise tinted glasses :)

Best,

[KAding]

Yes innit strange? Completely on line but apparently what's good enough for Europe isn't good enough for the Muslim world!

Doesn't sound likely. Local secularists are responsible for these policies, not foreign powers. In Turkey in particular nationalist secularists like Ataturk believed it was Islamic practices that led to the downfall of the Muslim world in general and the Ottoman Empire in particular. It was for this reason Islamic practices were so heavily suppressed, not because foreign powers demanded it.

The rest I'll classify as your inner child's rise tinted glasses :)

I prefer to see it as an optimistic and positive outlook and worldview. Helps to combat the cynicism and suspicion that is so much part of human nature. You could try it sometimes? It might help lift the mood a little ;).

[جوري]

Doesn't sound likely. Local secularists are responsible for these policies, not foreign powers. In Turkey in particular nationalist secularists like Ataturk believed it was Islamic practices that led to the downfall of the Muslim world in general and the Ottoman Empire in particular. It was for this reason Islamic practices were so heavily suppressed, not because foreign powers demanded it.

You need to revisit that period of history using facts not opinion!

I prefer to see it as an optimistic and positive outlook and worldview. Helps to combat the cynicism and suspicion that is so much part of human nature. You could try it sometimes? It might help lift the mood a little ;).

I am a realist and a logician life isn't a walk in the meadows- I can understand your perspective if this life is all there's but yours isn't the religion I subscribe to!

Best,

[Born_Believer]

No it wasn't - Syria has been in the Russian sphere of influence pretty much since independence - which is why Russia is still backing them now. In no way could it ever have been described as a western ally.



None of these example support your argument. Spain was a Christian country invaded by Muslims - you can hardly blame them for wanting to take it back. Syria is a Russian ally, not western. And Tunisia's Arab Spring took place entirely without apparent interference from anybody - western, Muslim or any other.


No, western countries are extremely uninterested in Islam, except as it becomes a problem in the context of Al Qaeda etc.

First point, Syria and the Assad regime was constantly paraded through the West as the finest example of a so called modern Muslim nation. I live here in the UK, I think I know what the media has shown me. Add to that constant visits between Assad and the Queen.

your second point: Almost every nation on this Earth was invaded by Muslims, none originally belonged to us. Spain was that way yes but it was economically strong and had trade routes with the rest of Christian Europe...much like modern day Turkey. My point was in response to your point that the West would not intervene with an economically stable country with which they traded. My point is highly relevant to that. And are you serious about Tunisia? The Guardian reported years ago that the US was carrying out covert operations within the country...what were they there for? Making cups of tea and feeding the people biscuits?

Your third point: Well what can I say other then may be you should get out more.

[Born_Believer]

The most important point on this topic is simple really, Turkey has had a democratic process for decades, the people voted in Erdogan, if it really was a purely internal struggle then the people know they can vote again in a few years time and if there really is the type of support against Erdogan that we are hearing of, he will lose the election. It is highly hypocritical of the West and it's media to paint Erdogan and his police force in the light of the oppressor considering that the British police has done exactly the same in recent years, the student protests of a couple years ago being a particular highlight of the police's brutality and the government's oppressive view of this so called "democracy".

Let us get our own house in order before we start pointing fingers.

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

I am confused. I have read that islam and western kind of democracy don´t mix together. But Erdogan (who I respect a lot as a leader by his works and politics) became elected by democratic elections. Now he is leader because of western democratic election process.

In the western kind of democracy is always opposition, which has right to disagree (that is the role of the most of western democracies).

So, mostly opposition doesn´t conquer a park... but this might be they style to keep political discussion.

[Independent]

First point, Syria and the Assad regime was constantly paraded through the West as the finest example of a so called modern Muslim nation

Assad's wife is British born and glamorous, which got them a certain amount of coverage in the glossies. But to suggest that this amounts to Syria being an ally of the west, or an ideal Muslim nation from a western point of view, is very wild of the mark indeed. Look at their armaments - all Soviet, not just now but going back for decades. Look at Syria in the Israeli wars. Look at Syria's role in Lebanon and especially the 1980s hostage crises, which had a powerful affect in Britain. Show me some mainstream UK reference sources to prove your point.

Almost every nation on this Earth was invaded by Muslims, none originally belonged to us. Spain was that way yes but it was economically strong and had trade routes with the rest of Christian Europe...much like modern day Turkey. My point was in response to your point that the West would not intervene with an economically stable country with which they traded.

This is too far back in history to make such a comparison. 'The west' did not yet exist as a concept and the ideal of trade-not-war as a model for international relations was not on the agenda.

The Guardian reported years ago that the US was carrying out covert operations within the country...what were they there for?

Can't really judge this without seeing the report. Do many people think the Tunisian revolution was a western fabrication? Haven't seen much of that around, apart from the people who think everything is a western put up job. And I thought most Muslims approved of the change of regime? Not sure what this proves.

Your third point: Well what can I say other then may be you should get out more.

Thank you for your kind suggestion. Nevertheless, the fact remains that the west in general lost interest in Islam after it ceased to be a military threat in the 18th century, and has only become more interested lately post the Iranian hostage crisis, 9/11 etc.

[Born_Believer]

Independent you have your views. many of which, especially of this so called "lack of interest with Islam in the West" are in my opinion plain wrong. I do not wish to offend and will simply end this year. Agree to disagree I think.

[Independent]

I do not wish to offend and will simply end this year. Agree to disagree I think.

.....ok!

[جوري]

Pls disregard what the under educated are saying.
Here's an article with full political analysis of what western countries are planning and have in mind for Turkey specifically - stick into google translate!
And generally reach for domestic papers - insiders know more about what's going on than random shills on the web!

http://islammemo.cc/akhbar/arab/2013/06/19/174469.html

[KAding]

Here's an article with full political analysis of what western countries are planning and have in mind for Turkey specifically - stick into google translate!
And generally reach for domestic papers - insiders know more about what's going on than random shills on the web!

http://islammemo.cc/akhbar/arab/2013/06/19/174469.html

Sorry, the Google Translate is a bit shabby ;). Am I right that two foreign parties are blamed in this story: foreign creditors (something with the IMF?) and Alawites?

[جوري]

Has to do with not using the banking system designed to have countries and their people at their knees and his stance to the Syrian revolution!

Best,

[Born_Believer]

Has to do with not using the banking system designed to have countries and their people at their knees and his stance to the Syrian revolution!

Best,

The exact same reason why Gaddafi was over thrown, he refused to deal with the IMF amongst many other so called misdemeanors.

[Independent]

With regard to the IMF, Turkey has just paid off its loan so it is free from obligation to this institution. Erdogan deserves praise for this. However, in the same period private sector debt has soared as Turkey effectively moves from being a 'statist' economy to a free market, private industry economy. So there are still vulnerabilities in the economy.

Also interesting to note is that the IMF, if it is supposed to be an instrument of control of the west over the second/third world, is changing its customer profile. Increasingly it is western economies who are the major borrowers as a result of the financial crisis.

Which is exactly what you would expect if the IMF is in fact exactly what it claims to be - a bank of last resort for indebted nations - rather than the instrument of an obscure international conspiracy:

“The customer profile of the IMF is changing,” Burak Kanli, chief economist at Finans Invest in Istanbul, said by phone yesterday. “In the decades before the crisis its customers were Turkey, Indonesia, Mexico, Brazil. Now it’s most of Europe - eastern and western. Turkey paying off its debt and becoming a creditor to the IMF is a result of this changing customer profile.”

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-0...ey-credit.html

[جوري]

Economies will be vulnerable the world over if they follow Rothschild/ Rockefeller economic theory of finance and get their news on inertia and status quo from Bloomberg!
And of course they'll be fought every step of the way!
You can't dream of thinking outside their matrix!

Even 12 year old girls have broken it down to others but who cares about the welfare of 90% of the world's population when it's all about the welfare of the colonial settler cockroach state and its poodle allies!

[~Zaria~]

7 Reasons Why You Should Support Erdogan and Not the Protesters

Posted by: Muhammad Wajid Akhter



To all those who were sympathetic to the protests in Turkey, it can sometimes feel like you're living in a different world from your opponents. After all, the media portrays you as artistic freedom loving environmentalist freedom fighters. They tell you time and time again that this is the Turkish spring and that you are the voice of the new young and free Turks leading your country back from the abyss of an autocratic and out of touch dictator. So why don't the others see this? How could they possibly support Erdogan? Well, here are a few reasons (in no particular order) that I hope might help you understand why the majority of the Muslim world support Erdogan and not your protests.


1. Because the support of Islamophobes troubles us



To even the most jaded Muslim, it is disconcerting to see the whole-hearted support that the protesters have received from the who's who of the neo-conservative and Islamophobic worlds. Most of these people have never once expressed an interest in Turkey except to decry any attempts for the nation to get more in touch with Islam. The fact that Robert Spencer (compared Muslims to Nazis), Pamella Geller (says Mecca and Madīnah can be bombed), the Greek government (won't allow the building of mosques) and Israel (no introduction needed) think that the protests are a good idea should make you reflect on exactly what they hope the protests will achieve.


2. Because the bias shown by the Western media is suspicious

The protesters were understandably upset when their actions didn't make it on to all the Turkish TV stations. In fact, one of the abiding themes of the protest has been centered around the farce of one station showing a documentary on penguins instead of the protests. However, exactly the opposite situation took hold outside of Turkey with most Western media outlets giving non-stop rolling coverage of the protests and hastily dubbing it the “Turkish spring.” The bias was so stark that there was hardly any attempt at finding the opinion of the pro-Erdogan public. Add to this the complete lack of coverage of similar protests in Bangladesh (this time the protesters were Islamic orientated and thousands were actually killed during a media blackout) and you get more than a whiff of hypocrisy at play.


3. Because of the breath-taking hypocrisy of others

The European Union and others have quickly stood up to berate Turkey and Erdogan for the way they have handled the protests. It is true that the death of protesters (and a policeman) is unjustifiable and tragic. But Europe and America have had their fair share of protests in the past few years and they have dealt with them in a remarkably similar manner. Whether it is the anti-austerity riots in Athens, the Occupy protest on Wall Street or the student riots in London, the playbook has been exactly the same. So why have Turkey and Erdogan being singled out for criticism? Can it be that there is another agenda at play here? Many of us fear this is the case.


4. Because Erdogan made Turkey a force once more



For those with short memories, it was not long ago that Turkey was a backwater of Europe. It was the country of doner kebabs, belly dancers, military coups and spiralling inflation. It was a nation that was rejected by the West despite desperately trying to be part of it and rejecting the East because of its reminder of an Empire long gone. But in the last ten years, Erdogan has managed to pull off a remarkable transformation of the reputation of Turkey and the Turks both in the East and the West. It is now well respected as much for its economic development as the moral leadership it provides in the Islamic world. Today, Turkey sits near the top of the world stage as a voice to be reckoned with, a force in the world rather than a page in the history books. Trying to turn back the clock seems, at best, myopic.


5. Because some things can't be measured

Even his most ardent critics have to admit that Erdogan and his colleagues have transformed Turkey from an economic laughing stock to one of the most powerful economies in the world. The stats are impressive: Reducing inflation from 65% to 6%, increasing the education budget 5 fold, repaying the IMF debt and making Turkey into one of the worlds leading tourist destinations are just some of the many achievements that would have been a dream a little more than 10 years ago. This is not just idle boasting. These results are concrete proof of a lack of corruption, enviable business acumen and true loyalty to the nation. The financial success is hard to overstate with many Turks (especially the rural majority) having adequate education, healthcare and social mobility within reach for the first time in generations. The only people who can so easily discount and trivialise this achievement are the upper classes who are comically displaying how out of touch they are with the previous suffering of the masses.


6. Because Hundreds of Millions across the world admire him

For more than 400 years, Turkey was the leader of the Muslim world. For reasons that are beyond the scope of this article, that relationship broke down spectacularly. In the last ten years, this has changed. When Muslims feel themselves abandoned in a tough situation, one of the few Muslim leaders who can be relied on to give moral support is Erdogan. Ask the Bangladeshi scholars who are on death row on politically motivated charges. Ask the Rohingya refugees who were visited by the Turkish Foreign Minister and Erdogan's wife. Ask the Palestinians who he has pledged to support when others shun them. Ask the Egyptians, Tunisians and Libyans who Erdogan was one of the first Muslim leaders to speak up for. Ask the Syrian refugees who find safe haven in Turkey thanks to Erdogan taking a brave and quick stand against his former strategic ally. Erdogan has won the admiration and the love of Muslims across the world. When we see the protesters saying that this man is a fascist, it is a description that we not only do not recognise, but find deeply offensive.


7. Because the pious majority will not be oppressed any more

The Turkish protesters may feel themselves to be the underdogs at the present time, but they should not forget that for more than 80 years it was they that held power in Turkey. During these 80 years, the treatment that the pious majority of Turks received can only be described as oppression. Turning mosques into museums, banning adhaans, banning the Fez, closing medressas – the scope of the oppression was wide ranging and all pervasive. To give you just one example – Erdogan's wife herself could not attend many functions in the early years of his rule simply because she wore a hijab. To give you another, the popular mayor of Istanbul (Erdogan) was jailed for simply reciting an Islamic poem. Where were the howls of protest then? Where was the indignation? In fact, we see the protesters engaged in glimpses of the same behaviour by the way they have vandalised and desecrated Mosques during their protests. The truth is that the majority of Turks are slowly turning back to a more natural and comfortable relationship with their faith and their fellow believers. They will not accept living in a state of fear and intimidation by the kemalists, communists or '-ists' of any kind.


Not everything Erdogan does is good or right. He is a politician and like other politicians, his calculations are not above criticism or censure. If those protesting in Turkey today want to save a few trees in Istanbul, then they will find that many will support them and be sympathetic towards their cause. They may even succeed. If, however, they want to bring down the most successful (by almost any measure) and popular democratically elected government that the Turkish people have had in more than a century, then they will fail. The message from the pious majority of Turks is clear. Your time is over. We are all Erdogan now.

http://muslimmatters.org/2013/06/17/...comment-123224

[KAding]

7 Reasons Why You Should Support Erdogan and Not the Protesters

A good and honest opinion piece and one that understands that this is an internal ideological conflict in Turkey and not the IMF/CIA/etc at work. In many ways I agree with the piece also and I completely understand why a pious Muslim would support Erdogan in this.

I just hope Turkey does not move from one extreme to the other. It is good the excessive secularism that was so prevalent in Turkey before is being tamed by Erdogan. But if Turkey now moves into the other extreme then they'll just move from one form of oppression hitting one social group to another form hitting another group. Turkey has a very big secularized minority, their wishes should also be respected.

[جوري]

The dawn of secularism is long over and such is the downfall of democracy for the longest time a minority usurping majority wishes and laws not sure what you'd like respected? If they can't wait to shed their clothes and bed hookers and break out in a homosexual parade they can always move to holland!
Internal conflicts are often very heavily funded from the outside they love to come in after a fire has caused an all time fatigue it leaves them with little struggle by way of huge conflict!

Lastly Islam is what's right all other laws are extremes that swim in the tides of men's lunacy!

Best,

[Born_Believer]

Turkey is a democratic state, I can understand protests taking place but why has the media put on this spin that the people of Turkey are desperate for change and will fight for it? This isn't a dictatorship like that of Syria, Libya, Egypt or Tunisia. If the people are unhappy, a few years down the line they can vote against him and we will really see what the majority want.

Isn't that what democracy is meant to be?