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islamica
06-08-2013, 01:54 AM
Mom Beats Man With Baseball Bat For Allegedly Molesting Her Sons

A 27-year-old mother of two young boys (eight and nine years of age) is being charged with assault after nearly beating a community coach to death for allegedly molesting her sons. “I asked my son, ‘Did he touch you bad, did he touch you down there?’ And my little boy said ‘Yes,’ and I said ‘Was it just you?’ And he said ‘No, he touched some more kids,’” Richmond told a local news station.

Richmond’s concerns were heightened when she received a phone call from the head coach of the community football team, located in Memphis, Tennessee, on Saturday requesting a meeting with the coach who allegedly molested her sons. As she made her way to the meeting, Richmond spotted the alleged child molester, Coach Red, during her commute. “He was running away,” said Richmond. “I didn’t say anything to him I just blinked out. When I saw him, I saw my kids being hurt, that’s it.”

Neighbors saw Richmond chase the coach down the street to a neighbor’s carport and beat the man with a bat. “There was blood splattered all over my carport,” said a neighbor Jackie Woods. “She beat his head open, split his head.“ Richmond says she did call police to report the coach but everything happened quickly. “I was hoping the police made it to him before I did,” said Richmond. “He was saying he didn’t do it and he was sorry. If you didn’t do it why are you saying you’re sorry? What are you sorry for?” Neighbors don’t believe Richmond should have been taken to jail for beating the coach.

“They’re suffering, they toss and turn at night, and they really just ain’t been sleeping because they’ve been scared. They were even scared to tell me. I mean I’m their mom,” stated Richmond. “If I don’t protect them then who will?”

http://www.the360experiment.com/2012...molesting-mom/


--
this is the difference between east and west. In the east the whole neighborhood would be beating him and no one would be charged.
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observer
06-08-2013, 08:52 AM
Originally Posted by islamica
this is the difference between east and west. In the east the whole neighborhood would be beating him and no one would be charged.
Yep, because vigilante justice is a flawless, fair system...
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GuestFellow
06-08-2013, 09:15 AM
Yay let's go around and smack suspects with baseball bats. Arr matey bash that pervy git with a morning star yeeeha! We don't need the police or a judicial system. *head desk*
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Hulk
06-08-2013, 11:02 AM
Islam is against vigilantism.
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crimsontide06
06-08-2013, 11:13 AM
What made her ask her kids that? Kids are conditioned(feel a need to..etc) to say yes when their parents ask them a yes or no question..without proof, she was in the wrong.

If he did do it, he still should have been sent to prison..etc not beaten half to death. You have to follow the law of the land.
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Woodrow
06-08-2013, 12:32 PM
The problem is unless you have actually witnessed the person doing what he is alleged to have done, you do not know if the allegation is true.

Should we as Muslims agree with what was recently done in Bolivia?

(Newser) – Sometimes it takes a village … to enact vigilante justice on an alleged teenage murderer. When police identified 17-year-old Santos Ramos as a suspect in the rape and murder of a 35-year-old near the small Bolivian town of Colquechaca, residents took matters into their own hands. During his alleged victim's Wednesday funeral, a crowd of more than 200 descended on Ramos, tied him up, and tossed him into the woman's still-open grave next to her coffin, the BBC reports.

The grave was then filled with dirt, burying Ramos alive and presumably killing him. Residents apparently also blocked the road to prevent police from intervening. The AP notes it wasn't the only lynching carried out on Wednesday in Potosi province: Residents of Tres Cruces attacked two suspected thieves who were alleged to have robbed a car and killed its driver; one was stoned to death, the other burned alive.

SOURCE
They were suspects and not even formally accused or charged with any crimes. They may have been guilty, but it was not proven nor was there even probable cause for them to be arrested. Vigilante justice is mob rule and is very often in error.
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Woodrow
06-08-2013, 12:34 PM
Originally Posted by crimsontide06
What made her ask her kids that? Kids are conditioned(feel a need to..etc) to say yes when their parents ask them a yes or no question..without proof, she was in the wrong.

If he did do it, he still should have been sent to prison..etc not beaten half to death. You have to follow the law of the land.
True, very often children will give the answer they think their parents want to hear.
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sister herb
06-08-2013, 12:40 PM
Was this beating of couch happened in the USA? I think that many in there just overreact to normal touching what hasn´t nothing sexual behind. It might be just as incentive slap to the backside.
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UmmuShaheed
06-09-2013, 01:53 AM
Subhanallah, Thats really tragic, if he's guilty of actually doing it. Id try and figure more out before decided to end his life. Then again, I don't know what I'd do in that situation. May allah protect us, and our offspring.
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introspective
06-09-2013, 02:52 AM
There you have it.

White 'Merica's so called 'social orderliness and progress' is a farce. Ever heard of 'white flight'?

I mean there is National Registry of Sex Offenders (you can search by city or zip code) yet there is no accessible list for gun ownership, list of people charged with DUI/DWI, list of people charged with grand larceny?

I'm not trying to take a cheap shot at white people in general, but some of them can be quite insular and naive.
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Iceee
06-09-2013, 04:43 AM
So I went to the website of the article. At the bottom, there are Facebook comments which are very disturbing.

We should look at evidence first before reacting. The kids say things that they think is right to their parents because that is what the parents want to hear.

Neighbors don’t believe Richmond should have been taken to jail for beating the coach.
Um. Okay.

But if he is found guilty, I'd be all for her having 5 minutes with her beating him half to death with a baseball bat.
Reply

Abz2000
06-09-2013, 06:07 AM
Vigilante justice is mob rule and is very often in error.
Can be true, however the type of "justice" we are seeing from these taghut governments is often twisted and satanic too, just adding that lest we forget the wolves running the show.
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Periwinkle18
06-09-2013, 06:24 AM
Originally Posted by islamica
[h=1]


--
this is the difference between east and west. In the east the whole neighborhood would be beating him and no one would be charged.
True

If someone does such a horrible thing in the east ppl wouldnt let tht person live. Lol n they wouldnt use baseball bats they would just shoot em to death.
Reply

observer
06-09-2013, 08:36 AM
Originally Posted by Periwinkle18
True If someone does such a horrible thing in the east ppl wouldnt let tht person live. Lol n they wouldnt use baseball bats they would just shoot em to death.
Is that better? Really? No trial, no evidence? I'm happy to live somewhere where people are not allowed to mete out justice as they see fit.
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Periwinkle18
06-09-2013, 10:11 AM
^it makes ppl think twice before dng horrible things.


And that coach was running if he wasn't guilty he wouldn't have be running away from that lady.
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Tyrion
06-09-2013, 10:42 AM
Originally Posted by Periwinkle18
And that coach was running if he wasn't guilty he wouldn't have be running away from that lady.
Right, never mind the lady running at him with a bat. :rolleyes: Him running says nothing about his guilt.

Originally Posted by islamica
this is the difference between east and west. In the east the whole neighborhood would be beating him and no one would be charged.
Glad I'm not in the east then. I thought Muslims were supposed to be all about justice? What happened to the legal system, and actually finding out if a person is guilty? You think we're allowed to just take the law into our own hands whenever we feel like it?
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Periwinkle18
06-09-2013, 10:48 AM
I'm not saying its good there's no justice system hea.

If these ppl would have followed the Islamic Shariah law there would have been justice buh they arnt so this is the way it is ppl protect themselves like this.

This is the reason y ppl r standing up in different countries they want Islam they want the Islamic law so that there's peace n justice...
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Periwinkle18
06-09-2013, 10:49 AM
Originally Posted by Tyrion
Him running says nothing about his guilt
Y was he sorry then?
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sister herb
06-09-2013, 11:26 AM
Originally Posted by Periwinkle18
Y was he sorry then?
If someone runs towards of you with some bat aiming to hit you, I am sure you will run too... and say what ever to stop attacker.

But yes, if they would use shariah in they society, this may never happens.
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Futuwwa
06-09-2013, 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by islamica
this is the difference between east and west. In the east the whole neighborhood would be beating him and no one would be charged.
Or alternatively, the molestation would never have been found out in the first place, as the boys would have been silenced by shame.
Reply

جوري
06-09-2013, 02:37 PM
Originally Posted by observer
Is that better? Really? No trial, no evidence? I'm happy to live somewhere where people are not allowed to mete out justice as they see fit.
Indeed it is better than a system that makes guilty innocent based on their pocket book & social status, one that bleeds the tax payers, one that doesn't serve a swift justice nor rehabilitates the guilty. Where have you been? Read something about the American justice system and you'll be clued in as to why many would rather seek it with their own hands.
here's one just from a couple of days ago:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/06/05...-for-woman-in/

frankly the entire 'justice system' in the west is a joke. Come again when the folks at gitmo get a fair trial, when children in Yemen aren't droned and when known killers aren't set free after an alleged fair trial.

best,
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sister herb
06-09-2013, 03:18 PM
Salam alaykum

"The justice system" in the West is meant to people of the West, the Westerner. Western justice system might be very different to the people whose live in the "East". It might differ by any political situation of the Western country they might have at that time.

By the way, have you read a story called as "The American good night story"?
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جوري
06-09-2013, 03:37 PM
I thought justice was blind and about well justice? It is unfortunate indeed that the day has come when folks have absolutely no trust in their system or their govt. What is sad is that there are folks who'd defend it still when it is so clear case after case what a sham it is.
I have fought in the system myself in a case related to a multi car accident caused on a winter day by a drunken woman, somehow and to this day I am utterly surprised how she got the other people to pay for everything & was exonerated herself from any charges. I have seen first hand how it works in something as minor as a car accident. I am frankly appalled.
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GuestFellow
06-09-2013, 04:27 PM
Originally Posted by Periwinkle18
I'm not saying its good there's no justice system hea.
:sl:

That does not mean you can go around and beat people up without any evidence.
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observer
06-09-2013, 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
Indeed it is better than a system that makes guilty innocent based on their pocket book & social status, one that bleeds the tax payers, one that doesn't serve a swift justice nor rehabilitates the guilty. Where have you been? ,
But this was based on presumed rather than proven guilt. How can that be defensible?
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glo
06-09-2013, 05:00 PM
The legal system may not be perfect - but there is no excuse for taking the law into your own hands in such a manner on a whim and a rumour!

Innocent until proven guilty is by far the better principle than dishing out punishment on the off-chance the the recipient is guilty.
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جوري
06-09-2013, 05:35 PM
The same defense I suppose that keeps 13 and 70 year olds in Gitmo for over a decade without trial!

Best,
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UmmuShaheed
06-09-2013, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Tyrion

Right, never mind the lady running at him with a bat. :rolleyes: Him running says nothing about his guilt.



Glad I'm not in the east then. I thought Muslims were supposed to be all about justice? What happened to the legal system, and actually finding out if a person is guilty? You think we're allowed to just take the law into our own hands whenever we feel like it?
Muslims aren't always good representatives of Islam (sadly)
Islam is all about honesty, and the Islamic justice system .
The people in the east generally tend to trust each other more and hence why they'd all take part in serving the offender with their form of justice
(It may not be the Islamic way to deal with things, but it's their form of justice lol however wrong it may seem to an outsider)
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GuestFellow
06-09-2013, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
The same defense I suppose that keeps 13 and 70 year olds in Gitmo for over a decade without trial!

Best,
:wa:

Most cases are dealt with properly in countries like US and UK. Yes you get some cases where people are treated very unfairly, but these are a minority and in extreme circumstances.

Legal systems in countries like Pakistan, Uzbekistan and China are far worse.
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جوري
06-09-2013, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by GuestFellow
:wa:

Most cases are dealt with properly in countries like US and UK. Yes you get some cases where people are treated very unfairly, but these are a minority and in extreme circumstances.

Legal systems in countries like Pakistan, Uzbekistan and China are far worse.
from whose perspective exactly? The west is notorious for rating itself 'just' and 'civilized' - I don't find your statement in the least bit accurate!

:w:
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GuestFellow
06-09-2013, 06:41 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
from whose perspective exactly? The west is notorious for rating itself 'just' and 'civilized' - I don't find your statement in the least bit accurate!

:w:
:wa:

From my perspective. =)

In the UK most cases are treated in accordance with the law. There are a few cases where there is corruption and individuals are mistreated. However, there are not as common. Compare that to other countries like India, Pakistan and Uzbekistan you will see a difference unless you don't know anything about these countries legal systems.
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جوري
06-09-2013, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by GuestFellow
:wa:

From my perspective. =)

In the UK most cases are treated in accordance with the law. There are a few cases where there is corruption and individuals are mistreated. However, there are not as common. Compare that to other countries like India, Pakistan and Uzbekistan you will see a difference unless you don't know anything about these countries legal systems.
In fact it is exactly the same, since east and west are running by a western drafted governance. The florid terms, funny wigs and Armani suits perhaps have disillusioned you as to who is just or fair. U.K especially is a most despicable parasite, truly the worst criminals the history has ever known!

best,
Reply

GuestFellow
06-09-2013, 07:19 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
The florid terms, funny wigs and Armani suits perhaps have disillusioned you as to who is just or fair. U.K especially is a most despicable parasite, truly the worst criminals the history has ever known!
best,
:wa:

No I'm not disillusioned, though you sound angry. :p:

All I'm saying is that in the UK the legal system is not that bad compared to other countries. It does have some flaws but it is not as bad as other countries.
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جوري
06-09-2013, 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by GuestFellow
No I'm not disillusioned, though you sound angry.
you must have special hearing to detect the tone of my writing.



Originally Posted by GuestFellow
All I'm saying is that in the UK the legal system is not that bad compared to other countries. It does have some flaws but it is not as bad as other countries.
That's your subjective opinion. I do wonder what the likes of Babar Ahmad for instance have to say about it.

best,
Reply

GuestFellow
06-09-2013, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
you must have special hearing to detect the tone of my writing.
Yeah it served me well whilst studying law and working as a paralegal.




That's your subjective opinion. I do wonder what the likes of Babar Ahmad for instance have to say about it.
Again your blowing one case out of proportion. Do you really think all suspects/convicted criminals in the UK are treated like Babar Ahmad?

This is one of the few cases where the police, the judiciary and the government have mistreated an individual in order to further whatever agenda they have in mind.
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Huzaifah ibn Adam
06-09-2013, 07:33 PM
If he did in fact touch those children, then he deserved what he got.

Was-Salaam.
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sister herb
06-09-2013, 07:41 PM
Originally Posted by Huzaifah
If he did in fact touch those children, then he deserved what he got.

Was-Salaam.
Salam alaykum

Yes IF. And if he really did something, he should get punishment from the court, not from some maniac-behaving woman.

^o)
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جوري
06-09-2013, 07:43 PM
Originally Posted by GuestFellow
Yeah it served me well whilst studying law and working as a paralegal.
I am not following!


Originally Posted by GuestFellow
Again your blowing one case out of proportion
Which case?


Originally Posted by GuestFellow
Do you really think all suspects/convicted criminals in the UK are treated like Babar Ahmad?
Probably kaffirs get special treatments- what is your point?


Originally Posted by GuestFellow
This is one of the few cases where the police, the judiciary and the government have mistreated an individual in order to further whatever agenda they have in mind.
Just one of the few cases that you've heard of is all!
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sister herb
06-09-2013, 07:46 PM
Salam alaykum

Could you two stay in topic? Or open new one to yourselves? I think you are now already quite far from that couch and baseball bat.

Now please sit down, breath a little and take a cup of tea and some biscuits...
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glo
06-09-2013, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
Now please sit down, breath a little and take a cup of tea and some biscuits...
Perhaps one of your herbal teas, sis herb? :statisfie
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GuestFellow
06-09-2013, 07:49 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
I am not following!
OKAY!


Which case?
The one which you mentioned about Bahar Ahmad.

Probably kaffirs get special treatments- what is your point?
What makes you think they get special treatment? My point is that most cases are treated fairly in the UK. Most suspects and convicted criminals are treated in accordance with the law.



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GuestFellow
06-09-2013, 07:51 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
Salam alaykum

Could you two stay in topic? Or open new one to yourselves? I think you are now already quite far from that couch and baseball bat.

Now please sit down, breath a little and take a cup of tea and some biscuits...
:wa:

I LOVE BISCUITS AND TEA! NOM NOM NOM

I'm fine and relaxed.

I'm having so much fun. XD

Originally Posted by glo
Perhaps one of your herbal teas, sis herb? :statisfie
I like green tea! HOW IRONIC! MY AVATAR IS GREEN TOO. :p:
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glo
06-09-2013, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by GuestFellow
I like green tea! HOW IRONIC! MY AVATAR IS GREEN TOO.
Your avatar looks a little sickly-green, if you donlt mind me saying ... +o(

oops ... now I am the one taking the thread off topic ... <walks away whistling innocently ...> :hiding::nervous:
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Abz2000
06-09-2013, 07:55 PM
They wouldn't have killed him in the uk or in the u.s,
Maybe she went into that moment of temporary insanity when she confronted him and got the vibe that he did it by the way he said he's "sorry",
Allah knows the situation best but I might feel the same if I found it to be the case after confronting someone,
The kids apparently said it happened to others and there are various ways of confirming it, why not wait until that's confirmed before we start talking about just judgement from these satanic enemies of truth:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCOF2...e_gdata_player

Gee talk about getting the fox to investigate the chicken coop!!!
They might have even offered him a job if she hadn't offed him lol, i think the poor woman should be re-united with her kids, it's obvious she really loves them, even a tiny chicken goes beserk at humans if she feels her kids are threatened, I think it was a natural reaction, we just need to wait and see if it was true.
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جوري
06-09-2013, 07:55 PM
Originally Posted by GuestFellow
The one which you mentioned about Bahar Ahmad.
You think that was blown out of proportion? Let's speak again when it is you in his place!


Originally Posted by GuestFellow
What makes you think they get special treatment?
Something about the prison hotel room Anders Behring Breivik received as punishment tells me things aren't running on fair and just!


Originally Posted by GuestFellow
My point is that most cases are treated fairly in the UK.
We've already established that and I believe I labeled it subjective so let's not go around in circles!


Originally Posted by GuestFellow
Most suspects and convicted criminals are treated in accordance with the law.
& the laws is of the whims of white oafs- Yes!

best,
Reply

GuestFellow
06-09-2013, 08:03 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
You think that was blown out of proportion?
No. You are blowing it out of proportion. You are saying that the entire UK legal system is corrupt/bad based upon one case.

I'm saying that the UK legal system is fit for purpose. It deals with most cases in accordance with the law and most of the time people are treated fairly.

Bahar Ahmad is an exception.

Something about the prison hotel room Anders Behring Breivik received as punishment tells me things aren't running on fair and just!
Yes sometimes the sentencing laws are very lenient. This is a common complaint that the punishments are not harsh enough. Yes that is one flaw.


We've already established that and I believe I labeled it subjective so let's not go around in circles!
Your opinion is just as subjective. Your basically saying BWAAAAAH WESTERN COUNTRY ARE BAD in a nutshell lol.

Not everything is black and white. XD

Originally Posted by sister herb

(Now this too goes off topic.)
hypocrite

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جوري
06-09-2013, 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by GuestFellow
No. You are blowing it out of proportion. You are saying that the entire UK legal system is corrupt/bad based upon one case.
No I am not, I am also not speaking of the UK system but the entire governance around the world go back and check what I have written.
Originally Posted by GuestFellow
I'm saying that the UK legal system is fit for purpose. It deals with most cases in accordance with the law and most of the time people are treated fairly.
For the third time that is subjective and I am getting tired of repeating myself!


Originally Posted by GuestFellow
Yes sometimes the sentencing laws are very lenient. This is a common complaint that the punishments are not harsh enough. Yes that is one flaw.
you often contradict yourself!
This is no different.


Originally Posted by GuestFellow
Your opinion is just as subjective. Your basically saying BWAAAAAH WESTERN COUNTRY ARE BAD in a nutshell lol.
I wrote east and west the law is drafted by people the same people in fact. And NO, my opinion isn't subjective. When people are drafting the law, and not blind as they purport about it the law will be flawed!


Originally Posted by GuestFellow
Not everything is black and white. XD
Indeed, I am not making it out to be, nor do I change my responses to fit blebs that show up!

best,
Reply

GuestFellow
06-09-2013, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
No I am not, I am also not speaking of the UK system but the entire governance around the world go back and check what I have written.
Well you have included the UK legal system and that is what I'm talking about. You even mentioned the Bahar Ahmad case which is specific to the UK. This made me believe we were talking about the UK legal system.

For the third time that is subjective and I am getting tired of repeating myself!
No one cares if your tired lol.

you often contradict yourself!
This is no different.
I have not contradicted myself.

I have said the UK legal system is fit for purpose. Most suspects/criminals are treated in accordance with the law. However there are problems with the legal system. One of them is sentencing. Other times you get extreme cases where suspects are mistreated like Bahar Ahmad.



I wrote east and west the law is drafted by people the same people in fact.
And?

And NO, my opinion isn't subjective.
I'd call it a rant.

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جوري
06-09-2013, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by GuestFellow
Well you have included the UK legal system and that is what I'm talking about.
Yes, that doesn't make it the exception perhaps even the originator of inequity given their racist and colonial history!


Originally Posted by GuestFellow
No one cares if your tired lol.
I care if I am tired and when I am tired I am less friendly you might dislike what I write even more if you can imagine!


Originally Posted by GuestFellow
I have not contradicted myself.
When you speak of just then introduce the 'one flaw' that's a contradiction.


Originally Posted by GuestFellow
I have said the UK legal system is fit for purpose.
What purpose is that? to drain tax payers and stick innocents in jail while freeing the rich and crooked?


Originally Posted by GuestFellow
Most suspects/criminals are treated in accordance with the law.
& the law is drafted by them to do as they please- yes, your point again being?
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sister herb
06-09-2013, 08:18 PM
Salam alaykum

What if this case would happen in some country where court use sharia law? Does shariah allow that people take right to punish others if they only evidence is what one child has told to some person? Without the decision of the court?
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جوري
06-09-2013, 08:19 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
What if this case would happen in some country where court use sharia law? Does shariah allow that people take right to punish others if they only evidence is what one child has told to some person? Without the decision of the court?
:wa:

We can't conjecture on what doesn't exist, rather what does!

:w:
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sister herb
06-09-2013, 08:22 PM
Salam alaykum

My question wasn´t any conjecture, but how shariah would works in kind of case.
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جوري
06-09-2013, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
Salam alaykum

My question wasn´t any conjecture, but how shariah would works in kind of case.
In that case it is a judicial matter left to someone with extended schooling, has excellence in judgement & character and not one left to say 12 oafs from the street who've barely a GED as is the case of the U.S system!

:w:
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GuestFellow
06-09-2013, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by العنود

When you speak of just then introduce the 'one flaw' that's a contradiction.
No it's not. I'm actually giving you a balanced view of the UK legal system. It has its good sides and its bad sides. I have pointed them out to you.

What purpose is that?
I'll mention a few.

To punish offenders through imprisonment/fines.
To reduce crime through deterrence.
To reform and rehabilitate offenders.
To protect the publish.

In the UK the main focus is on rehabilitating offenders.

the law is drafted by them to do as they please
No it's not drafted by criminals/suspects. o_o


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جوري
06-09-2013, 08:29 PM
Narrated Buraydah ibn al-Hasib: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Judges are of three types, one of whom will go to Paradise and two to Hell. The one who will go to Paradise is a man who knows what is right and gives judgment accordingly; but a man who knows what is right and acts tyrannically in his judgment will go to Hell; and a man who gives judgment for people when he is ignorant will go to Hell.

Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If anyone seeks the office of judge among Muslims till he gets it and his justice prevails over his tyranny, he will go to Paradise; but the man whose tyranny prevails over his justice will go to Hell.

Narrated AbuMas'ud al-Ansari: AbdurRahman ibn Bishr al-Ansari al-Azraq said: Two men from the locality of Kindah came while AbuMas'ud al-Ansari was sitting n a circle. They said: Is there any man who decides between us. A man from the circle said: I, AbuMas'ud took a handful of pebbles and threw at him, saying: Hush! It is disapproved to make haste in decision.

Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: If anyone desires the office of Judge and seeks help for it, he will be left to his own devices; if anyone does not desire it, nor does he seek help for it, Allah will send down an angel who will direct him aright.

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) sent me to the Yemen as judge, and I asked: Apostle of Allah, are you sending me when I am young and have no knowledge of the duties of a judge? He replied: Allah will guide your heart and keep your tongue true. When two litigants sit in front of you, do not decide till you hear what the other has to say as you heard what the first had to say; for it is best that you should have a clear idea of the best decision. He said: I had been a judge (for long); or he said (the narrator is doubtful): I have no doubts about a decision afterwards.
Reply

Insaanah
06-09-2013, 08:36 PM
Please do NOT insult other members. Posts will be deleted and infractions may be issued. Please discuss the topic in a polite manner, and if you cannot do so, then know that this thread may be closed, in addition to the other actions.
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glo
06-09-2013, 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
In that case it is a judicial matter left to someone with extended schooling, has excellence in judgement & character and not one left to say 12 oafs from the street who've barely a GED as is the case of the U.S system!
Presumably under sharia law the guilt of the accused would also have to established before any judgment was passed.
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جوري
06-09-2013, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Presumably under sharia law the guilt of the accused would also have to established before any judgment was passed.
Is that not how it should work in every system? Both sides are heard, witnesses brought forth, corroboration of evidence, establishment of credibility of the individuals, sound knowledge and character of the judge, Punishment swift and befitting of crime which happens after establishment of guilt?

best,
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glo
06-09-2013, 09:01 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
Is that not how it should work in every system? Both sides are heard, witnesses brought forth, corroboration of evidence, establishment of credibility of the individuals, sound knowledge and character of the judge? Punishment swift and befitting of crime which happens after establishment of guilt?

best,
Quite.
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جوري
06-09-2013, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Quite.
Glad we're in agreement then. Justice should be blind.. But when you've 12 jurors planting the American flag in the middle of the table when the accused is a Muslim, I have my doubts to a fair trial. And when a maniac as we see happening everyday literally everyday mass murdering at malls, school, theatre, and being granted a reduced sentence either in a hotel like room or an insane asylum or free all together it kind of takes your faith in the system away.
I am not sure personally how I'd feel if I saw one of my young relatives being molested. I do know it happened to my relatives where the head of the family in this case dragged the man accused of molestation to the 9th floor to dump him from the balcony were it not for the neighbors interfering. And only so my relative wouldn't end up in jail when he has young kids and a family not because the man wasn't guilty everyone saw him and everyone was disgusted by him. He got off otherwise with a public humiliation and banishment from that lane but possibly he went somewhere else and was more careful about the kids he molested.
Until people taste injustice truly taste it will they understand and relate to anyone who decides to take matters into their own hand.

peace
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Futuwwa
06-09-2013, 09:39 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
Is that not how it should work in every system? Both sides are heard, witnesses brought forth, corroboration of evidence, establishment of credibility of the individuals, sound knowledge and character of the judge, Punishment swift and befitting of crime which happens after establishment of guilt?
Agreed, that is how it should work. Which is why the woman who clubbed the alleged molestor should be held criminally liable, for she did none of the above things. Good that the "east" and the "west" can agree on something.
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جوري
06-09-2013, 09:42 PM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Agreed, that is how it should work. Which is why the woman who clubbed the alleged molestor should be held criminally liable, for she did none of the above things. Good that the "east" and the "west" can agree on something.
I have no concern for the lady to defend her one way or the other nor the accused in this case. I am speaking generally of how a system should work not how the system actually works.
Also I don't pretend to know about the law otherwise when it comes to nuances of specific cases unless I were called in to give medical evidence on a case I am personally involved in and you know 12 random people from the street would know even less so from the get go I find the system flawed in the way it is constructed.

I think if one wants to read and understand a bit about the judicial system in the Muslim world they should read the works of Ashafi3i and abu hanifah an'nu3man..
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Karl
06-09-2013, 11:18 PM
The woman is a maniac and needs to be put in an asylum for the criminally insane.
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Pygoscelis
06-09-2013, 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by GuestFellow
Yay let's go around and smack suspects with baseball bats. Arr matey bash that pervy git with a morning star yeeeha! We don't need the police or a judicial system. *head desk*
lol The way you put that cracked me up
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Hulk
06-10-2013, 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by glo
Presumably under sharia law the guilt of the accused would also have to established before any judgment was passed.
Of course. I know there are some silly films and people spreading nonsense like saying "In Islam, when a man accuses a woman of doing something wrong, she is automatically guilty until proven innocent.". I hope you didn't come across one of these hogwash and actually bought it.
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Ali Mujahidin
06-10-2013, 03:17 AM
Originally Posted by islamica
this is the difference between east and west. In the east the whole neighborhood would be beating him and no one would be charged.
In Thailand, if the police arrive a bit late, they will just be collecting the corpse.

I have personally seen one man on the steps of the police station early one morning. He was badly beaten up, his clothes torn and bloodied, his face swollen and his teeth broken. I asked the policeman, what happened and he said,

"The villagers caught him stealing a pair of slippers."


Now, I have lived among the people of Thailand for two decades and I can say for a certainty that they are a peaceful people and very definitely not people who would kill at the drop of a pin, or, in this case, just because of a pair of slippers. I am very sure, without supporting evidence, that the man I saw on the steps of the police station must have been a notorious character in his village who had been the prime suspect in a lot of thefts. So that morning they must have caught him red-handed and much as I believe in a fair trial and all that, I think what the villagers did in that case solved the problem very neatly and justice was served. I seriously doubt if the man who was beaten would think about stealing anything for a long while.

Now, about the woman who hit the man with a bat for molesting her sons.

If I were her, I would have probably done the same. Of course, I would ask him about it first, but if he answered by saying sorry, as the woman said, then I would consider it an open and close case. Like she said, why say sorry if you haven't done anything wrong? Actually I would beat him over the head just to knock him out, so that I can castrate him more easily.

Do I sound bloodthirsty? Am I uncivilized? Don't I have any clue about justice and fair trials and all that?

I don't know. Maybe the media is lying about this issue. I mean, just look at all those reports about child abusers who re-offend as soon as they are released. Is that justice? When we talk about justice, I strongly believe the first priority must be the victim not the perpetrator. When the law bends over backwards to protect the perpetrator, in the name of justice, then I strongly suggest that the law should just bend over and get it right right where it deserves.
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Iceee
06-10-2013, 03:22 AM
Originally Posted by Periwinkle18
And that coach was running if he wasn't guilty he wouldn't have be running away from that lady.
Isn't that the same thing as what happened to the Chechen brothers. They ran after and we say they are innocent. :)
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glo
06-10-2013, 05:51 AM
Originally Posted by Hulk
Of course. I know there are some silly films and people spreading nonsense like saying "In Islam, when a man accuses a woman of doing something wrong, she is automatically guilty until proven innocent.". I hope you didn't come across one of these hogwash and actually bought it.
No, I didn't. :)

I just wanted to reiterate that establishing the GUILT of the accused before deciding on any punishment is paramount in any good legal system.
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Pygoscelis
06-10-2013, 07:22 AM
Originally Posted by Ali Mujahidin
If I were her, I would have probably done the same. Of course, I would ask him about it first, but if he answered by saying sorry, as the woman said, then I would consider it an open and close case. Like she said, why say sorry if you haven't done anything wrong? Actually I would beat him over the head just to knock him out, so that I can castrate him more easily.

Do I sound bloodthirsty? Am I uncivilized? Don't I have any clue about justice and fair trials and all that?
Yes, you do sound bloodthirsty and uncivilized. And if you were to actually act in such a way, you really should be locked up. He may have said sorry just to calm the lady down or just as a reflex or as being empathetic for her loss. You don't know. Maybe he said sorry because he failed to prevent the kids from some other guy molesting them or from catching the guy who did it as he ran away. You don't know. And you shouldn't be ripping the man's bits off in some bloodthirsty rage of vengeance. How would you feel if you did that and then later found out he didn't do it, the kids were never molested, or somebody else did it and not him? Should you then be treated the same way you treated him? Without due process? With an angry mob?

I don't know. Maybe the media is lying about this issue. I mean, just look at all those reports about child abusers who re-offend as soon as they are released. Is that justice? When we talk about justice, I strongly believe the first priority must be the victim not the perpetrator. When the law bends over backwards to protect the perpetrator, in the name of justice, then I strongly suggest that the law should just bend over and get it right right where it deserves.
By changing the law. Not by anarchy and making yourself just as bad as the man you seek vengeance on.
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Abz2000
06-10-2013, 07:38 AM
Has anyone read the book "a time to kill" by John Grisham? Quite a riveting read.
Carl Lee Hailey offs the men who abused his daughter and even the cop who got shot by Carl in the process calls him a hero,
Carl later gets acquitted by a jury on the basis of temp ins,
Felt about right.
nice to know they didn't charge the woman with attempted murder - seems like the cops have a good idea about it.

In Islam, vigilante justice is not preferable, but when it happens, there are numerous cases where the guilt of the killer is checked afterwards, and was also acquitted.
Remember how the Prophet pbuh rushed to respond to the humiliation of a Muslim lady and killing of a Muslim man by Banu qainuqa?
I don't remember him (pbuh) condemning the dead Muslim man for angrily killing the sicko who pegged the cloak.
If that woman felt violated I believe it was a moment of justified temporary insanity.
What only waits is to find out if she killed an innocent man.

Go jail Obama for killing innocent people on his whim with no regard for the law before picking on a powerless woman with a baseball bat.
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جوري
06-10-2013, 08:06 AM
Same hypocrites screaming for trials here are the same hypocrites denying trials there and why not when they've men imitators to champion their cause a little, look the other way a lot & have some unusual hope that a dialogue with cancer will rehabilitate, change its nature or arrest its progress!

لعنكم الله بكفركم what else is left بعد الكفر except Muslims with low or non standards!
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GuestFellow
06-10-2013, 08:27 AM
^ Which hypocrites are you referring to now? :p:
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observer
06-10-2013, 08:56 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
Go jail Obama for killing innocent people on his whim with no regard for the law before picking on a powerless woman with a baseball bat.

Good idea. Let's have no law until all political problems everywhere in the world have been sorted out. It might take a while but boy, THEN we'll have a great society!
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جوري
06-10-2013, 01:02 PM
In fact the law is now set to take away more & more rights from law abiding citizens such that they can't protect themselves, property or kids etc. until a slob comes to write a report over their dead bodies- meanwhile any moron can go get a gun from somewhere it never stopped criminals before and they go killing en masse!
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Pygoscelis
06-10-2013, 04:17 PM
Why can't we oppose both mobs ripping people to shreds AND governments abusing people? We should be supporting the rule of law and we should be holding our governments accountable and making them transparent.
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Scimitar
06-10-2013, 05:00 PM
I wonder, did you (like me) think along these lines?:

"the world is on the brink of a world war and we're discussing this?"

"I wonder what this thread has to do with Islam?"

"So uhm, how come we're all so getting up tight about this? did some of us miss breakfast?"

"last night i saw a moth try to eat thru my sock, I found that interesting - why am I thinking about that while reading this thread?"

These are just some of the thoughts that went thru my head. :D

Scimi
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glo
06-10-2013, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Why can't we oppose both mobs ripping people to shreds AND governments abusing people? We should be supporting the rule of law and we should be holding our governments accountable and making them transparent.
Sounds pretty obvious to me.
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Abz2000
06-10-2013, 06:55 PM
He knew what time of day it was when he looked for the clock and realised that the medium hand had a bat in it instead of the big hand being on the little hand.....
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Karl
06-10-2013, 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by Ali Mujahidin
In Thailand, if the police arrive a bit late, they will just be collecting the corpse.

I have personally seen one man on the steps of the police station early one morning. He was badly beaten up, his clothes torn and bloodied, his face swollen and his teeth broken. I asked the policeman, what happened and he said,

"The villagers caught him stealing a pair of slippers."


Now, I have lived among the people of Thailand for two decades and I can say for a certainty that they are a peaceful people and very definitely not people who would kill at the drop of a pin, or, in this case, just because of a pair of slippers. I am very sure, without supporting evidence, that the man I saw on the steps of the police station must have been a notorious character in his village who had been the prime suspect in a lot of thefts. So that morning they must have caught him red-handed and much as I believe in a fair trial and all that, I think what the villagers did in that case solved the problem very neatly and justice was served. I seriously doubt if the man who was beaten would think about stealing anything for a long while.

Now, about the woman who hit the man with a bat for molesting her sons.

If I were her, I would have probably done the same. Of course, I would ask him about it first, but if he answered by saying sorry, as the woman said, then I would consider it an open and close case. Like she said, why say sorry if you haven't done anything wrong? Actually I would beat him over the head just to knock him out, so that I can castrate him more easily.

Do I sound bloodthirsty? Am I uncivilized? Don't I have any clue about justice and fair trials and all that?

I don't know. Maybe the media is lying about this issue. I mean, just look at all those reports about child abusers who re-offend as soon as they are released. Is that justice? When we talk about justice, I strongly believe the first priority must be the victim not the perpetrator. When the law bends over backwards to protect the perpetrator, in the name of justice, then I strongly suggest that the law should just bend over and get it right right where it deserves.
So basically you are saying Thais behave like savage kaffirs. Where in the Quran does it tell you to behave like that?
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Karl
06-10-2013, 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
I wonder, did you (like me) think along these lines?:

"the world is on the brink of a world war and we're discussing this?"

"I wonder what this thread has to do with Islam?"

"So uhm, how come we're all so getting up tight about this? did some of us miss breakfast?"

"last night i saw a moth try to eat thru my sock, I found that interesting - why am I thinking about that while reading this thread?"

These are just some of the thoughts that went thru my head. :D

Scimi
The woman is mad and if others become mad pretty soon you will have a war. This psycho violent mindset is the reason for war. She is the type who would gladly nuke nations with little provocation.
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جوري
06-11-2013, 12:14 AM
You strike me as gun toting anyways and shooting the heads off anyone who crosses your foyer, so I was surprised to your response here then I quickly retracted that surprise, since she's both a woman and black so that's enough to rouse some misogynist feelings in you!
& no I am not a feminist I love men, reasoned, wise, warriors and statesmen the likes of Khalid & Umar a far cry from the type we've now a days!

best,
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Muslim Woman
06-11-2013, 01:00 AM
:sl:


did not read the thread except the title. Don't know what's the relation between child molest and marraige .

Young marriage is valid if parents and both girl and boy agree . There is a strong opinion that the girl should start the married life with husband after her puberty as Mother Aisha ra did . But these are off topic here .
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faithandpeace
06-11-2013, 01:35 AM
Assalamu alaikum. I can understand the mother being beyond furious for what she believed was true about her son being horribly victimized. On the other hand, a healthy and just society must have a system where the accused are found guilty and punished on the basis of evidence demonstrating their guilt. She did act impulisively before firm evidence was established. On the other hand, the justice system in place currently does not provide for any sense of justice as it does not adequately punish those who commit these crimes. I don't see how any mother would feel any sense of justice knowing that the man who molested or raped her child was simply going to get a number of years in prison complete with the amenities of TV, decent food, exercise, and entertainment. If rapists and child molesters instead were beheaded or stoned to death, there is a reasonably good chance that such crimes would drastically decrease. Not only would the trash be removed from society forever, it would send a message to others to think twice about what they do. The justice system in place now is not an effective nor a civilized one. As a result, it is not surprising that people do take the law into their own hands. Two wrongs do not make a right either, however.
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جوري
06-11-2013, 08:17 AM
Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
:sl:


did not read the thread except the title. Don't know what's the relation between child molest and marraige .

Young marriage is valid if parents and both girl and boy agree . There is a strong opinion that the girl should start the married life with husband after her puberty as Mother Aisha ra did . But these are off topic here .
:sl: the relevance of that detour is a conundrum only Karl can answer I've a clue but hope my hunch inaccurate!
Being promised to each other as an agreement between parents a practice usually out of interest practiced by king and queens to keep thrones in their family is indeed an ancient practice but the 'children' in spite of their ill fate were still waited on to meet the conditions of marriage we didn't have three year olds married to 11 year olds because their families decided their fate- furthermore they could breech that contract since there's no marriage without consent!
And :Allah::swt: knows best,
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Futuwwa
06-11-2013, 08:20 AM
Originally Posted by faithandpeace
If rapists and child molesters instead were beheaded or stoned to death, there is a reasonably good chance that such crimes would drastically decrease.
On the other hand, it would make rapists and child molesters likely to kill their victims to decrease the risk of getting caught. If an amoral criminal knows he's getting executed anyway if caught, he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by committing further crimes and silencing witnesses forever.
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observer
06-11-2013, 10:27 AM
Originally Posted by faithandpeace
If rapists and child molesters instead were beheaded or stoned to death, there is a reasonably good chance that such crimes would drastically decrease.
They have the death penalty in many countries where crime is still rampant (the US is one). It's hardly been a deterrent there. And I'd like to think that, in 2013, we could say that beheading and stoning people to death is barbaric and disgusting.
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islamica
06-11-2013, 10:48 AM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
On the other hand, it would make rapists and child molesters likely to kill their victims to decrease the risk of getting caught. If an amoral criminal knows he's getting executed anyway if caught, he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by committing further crimes and silencing witnesses forever.
They already do that, look up rape and india. Rape of women is an endemic there and rape of little girls and killing them and throwing them in rivers to hide one's crime is not uncommon either.
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Jedi_Mindset
06-11-2013, 10:54 AM
Originally Posted by Futuwwa
On the other hand, it would make rapists and child molesters likely to kill their victims to decrease the risk of getting caught. If an amoral criminal knows he's getting executed anyway if caught, he has nothing to lose and everything to gain by committing further crimes and silencing witnesses forever.
Nothing remains forever until the day of judgement, keep that in mind.
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sister herb
06-11-2013, 10:59 AM
We are talking here this case (even basicly about it) but I noticed that it happened already at the August 2012 and now is June 2013 so it happened almost year ago. Have anyone any information did this man actually anything or not? Did he become judged or did this woman judged?
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جوري
06-11-2013, 01:18 PM
Originally Posted by islamica
They already do that, look up rape and india. Rape of women is an endemic there and rape of little girls and killing them and throwing them in rivers to hide one's crime is not uncommon either.
by Allah I was going to say the same!
I keep going back to the story of 6 year old Megan after which Megan law was passed pls google it. He killed her and chopped her and skinned her after he raped her. Then some idiot comes and changes his sentence citing the ' barbarism' of the death penalty!
And what he did to that girl well that was a walk in the park! Hypocrites who side with criminals at the expense of the tax payers with no regard to justice the victim or the grieving families!
As I said before until it happens to their kid or their sister or niece or mother they'll cry you a river of BS several pages long!
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observer
06-11-2013, 01:30 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
by Allah I was going to say the same!
I keep going back to the story of 6 year old Megan after which Megan law was passed pls google it. He killed her and chopped her and skinned her after he raped her. Then some idiot comes and changes his sentence citing the ' barbarism' of the death penalty!
And what he did to that girl well that was a walk in the park! Hypocrites who side with criminals at the expense of the tax payers with no regard to justice the victim or the grieving families!
As I said before until it happens to their kid or their sister or niece or mother they'll cry you a river of BS several pages long!
As an opponent of the death penalty, I just think it seems incredibly hypocritical to say "Killing is a sin. You mustn't kill. If you kill someone, we kill you." So killing's bad, except when it's ok....

A friend of mine was murdered a while back. His killer (seemingly a random killing) was never caught. I'd like to see his killer caught and brought to justice, sent to jail for life. I don't want to see him killed.

There's no evidence that the death penalty reduces crime. To say that people who are against the death penalty side with criminals is utter nonsense.
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جوري
06-11-2013, 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by observer
As an opponent of the death penalty, I just think it seems incredibly hypocritical to say "Killing is a sin. You mustn't kill. If you kill someone, we kill you." So killing's bad, except when it's ok....
Maybe you'd a christian upbringing. I too wouldn't be able to reconcile that with what they proclaim of love and peace with the other hand they're invading nations and slaughtering en masse.
There's NO such problem in Islam so long as it is merited.
Your feelings otherwise are your own. The law shouldn't and doesn't run on feelings. I guess that is the problem here folks proclaiming justice is blind but seem to not honor that notion!
Also the whole death penalty doesn't change things is a rumor run by well opponents of the death penlaty. All we need to do is compare crime rates in places where they impose it verses those that don't!
Either way it isn't about 'reduction' of crimes- it is about carriage of justice!

best,
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observer
06-11-2013, 01:41 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
Maybe you'd a christian upbringing. I too wouldn't be able to reconcile that with what they proclaim of love and peace with the other hand they're invading nations and slaughtering en masse.
There's NO such problem in Islam so long as it is merited.
It has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or religious upbringing. It's the very concept of an-eye-for-an-eye, a-life-for-a-life which seems utterly barbaric and unnecessary in the modern world.
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جوري
06-11-2013, 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by observer
It has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or religious upbringing. It's the very concept of an-eye-for-an-eye, a-life-for-a-life which seems utterly barbaric and unnecessary in the modern world.
I see crime is barbaric & unnecessary in any world!

best,
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islamica
06-11-2013, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
by Allah I was going to say the same!
I keep going back to the story of 6 year old Megan after which Megan law was passed pls google it. He killed her and chopped her and skinned her after he raped her. Then some idiot comes and changes his sentence citing the ' barbarism' of the death penalty!
And what he did to that girl well that was a walk in the park! Hypocrites who side with criminals at the expense of the tax payers with no regard to justice the victim or the grieving families!
As I said before until it happens to their kid or their sister or niece or mother they'll cry you a river of BS several pages long!
they can cry rivers all they want and the hypocrites can defend them all they want, but you go to these non-muslims in any western country whose family member was murdered, raped and what have you, every one of them will want an islamic justice as oppose to their fake justice.
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Pygoscelis
06-11-2013, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by observer
It has nothing whatsoever to do with religion or religious upbringing. It's the very concept of an-eye-for-an-eye, a-life-for-a-life which seems utterly barbaric and unnecessary in the modern world.
And that doesn't even mention the fact that if you have the death penalty, every wrongly convicted becomes a state sponsored murder of an innocent. When we discover we've wrongly convicted somebody, and yes it will happen, then do we send the prosecutor and judge and jury to the gallows?
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Pygoscelis
06-11-2013, 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by islamica
they can cry rivers all they want and the hypocrites can defend them all they want, but you go to these non-muslims in any western country whose family member was murdered, raped and what have you, every one of them will want an islamic justice as oppose to their fake justice.
Originally Posted by العنود
The law shouldn't and doesn't run on feelings.
Vengeance is not a rational basis for a legal system. It solves nothing.
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جوري
06-11-2013, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Vengeance is not a rational basis for a legal system. It solves nothing.
carriage of justice and punishment befitting of the crime is rational in fact!

best,
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Karl
06-11-2013, 11:12 PM
Originally Posted by العنود
You strike me as gun toting anyways and shooting the heads off anyone who crosses your foyer, so I was surprised to your response here then I quickly retracted that surprise, since she's both a woman and black so that's enough to rouse some misogynist feelings in you!
& no I am not a feminist I love men, reasoned, wise, warriors and statesmen the likes of Khalid & Umar a far cry from the type we've now a days!

best,
Are you replying to me? I did not know she was black anyway. It wouldn't matter as all Americans are brainwashed under the same system of extreme feminist hysteria. Their extreme phobia of the fact that minors are sexual beings. Their fear turns to hate and their hate turns to violence. They have lost objective reasoning.

This is how I would have handled it if I had a son who got groped by a man. My son complains to me about it, I would just say "tell him you are not gay and you don't like being groped and if he keeps doing it you will report him to the police". If my son was gay and liked doing things with men he would probably not tell me for fear that I would not be pleased with him, so I would be none the wiser.
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islamica
06-12-2013, 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by Karl;1587180
This is how I would have handled it if I had a son who got groped by a man. [B
My son complains to me about it, I would just say "tell him you are not gay and you don't like being groped and if he keeps doing it you will report him to the police"[/B]. If my son was gay and liked doing things with men he would probably not tell me for fear that I would not be pleased with him, so I would be none the wiser.
That is just plain sick and revolting, this is the difference between those who love their kids and want to protect them and those void of any real feelings.

Originally Posted by جوري
carriage of justice and punishment befitting of the crime is rational in fact!

best,
The hypocrites will cry and whine, especially the so called human "rights" activists. I feel like they should be the first one punished with the same crime so they can see the victim's side for once .

http://s24.postimg.org/r6imlalk5/bahrami.jpg
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جوري
06-12-2013, 08:21 AM
I believe the perpetrator actually got away with his crime because of them!
They're keen on crying about 'barbarism' but what happened to her isn't barbaric it's perfectly civilized for a beautiful young woman to go through life with a mangled face and blind in one eye her attacker should receive a mini hotel room prison with mini bar and three square meals a day plus health care which even the hard working poor aren't entitled to!
As I said until those hypocrites experience injustice first hand will they've a change of venue!
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observer
06-12-2013, 09:15 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
I believe the perpetrator actually got away with his crime because of them!
They're keen on crying about 'barbarism' but what happened to her isn't barbaric it's perfectly civilized for a beautiful young woman to go through life with a mangled face and blind in one eye her attacker should receive a mini hotel room prison with mini bar and three square meals a day plus health care which even the hard working poor aren't entitled to!
As I said until those hypocrites experience injustice first hand will they've a change of venue!

The crime was barbaric. Does that mean the sentence should be too? 2 wrongs equals 1 right? Really?
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جوري
06-12-2013, 09:26 AM
Originally Posted by observer
The crime was barbaric. Does that mean the sentence should be too? 2 wrongs equals 1 right? Really?
the sentence rights what's wrong - unfortunately no such luck in this case!
It isn't your call anyway or 'humans rights' if anyone should have a say it's the victim and not under duress by people like you or 'humans rights' you just peddle recycled empty rhetoric that's utterly nonsensical.
How's justice a second wrong - one truly marvels at the machination of your mind!

Best,
Reply

observer
06-12-2013, 12:05 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
It isn't your call anyway or 'humans rights' if anyone should have a say it's the victim and not under duress by people like you or 'humans rights'
Yep, all defendants should set the punishments. Great idea, no room for any problems there. No siree.

Originally Posted by جوري
How's justice a second wrong - one truly marvels at the machination of your mind!
It's just that your concept of "justice" seems to be a pretty bloodthirsty and vengeful one. I wouldn't call that "justice" but revenge. They're different. One is constructive, the other wholly destructive.
Reply

جوري
06-12-2013, 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by observer
Yep, all defendants should set the punishments. Great idea, no room for any problems there. No siree.
Even a better idea when they consult you or 12 idiots from the street who've no insight to the case- what a hoot!


It's just that your concept of "justice" seems to be a pretty bloodthirsty and vengeful one. I wouldn't call that "justice" but revenge. They're different. One is constructive, the other wholly destructive.
It's not my concept. It's derived from the crime itself!
Can't do the punishment don't do the crime - it's quite simple!

Best,
Reply

observer
06-12-2013, 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
Even a better idea when they consult you or 12 idiots from the street who've no insight to the case- what a hoot!

But the jury don't choose a punishment of course, they just decide whether the defendant is guilty or not guilty. Punishment is set by the judge in accordance with the law.
Reply

جوري
06-12-2013, 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by observer
But the jury don't choose a punishment of course, they just decide whether the defendant is guilty or not guilty. Punishment is set by the judge in accordance with the law.
They've no business deciding guilt or innocence either it's a judicial matter beginning to end and punishment should fit the crime!

Best,
Reply

observer
06-12-2013, 02:17 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
They've no business deciding guilt or innocence either it's a judicial matter beginning to end and punishment should fit the crime!
Well, I suppose that's down to personal taste. I like the jury system but I don't think it's good for all cases (complex fraud trials for example). I'm not sure what system would be better either.
Reply

observer
06-12-2013, 02:20 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
punishment should fit the crime!
I agree, but punishment should not be revenge.
Reply

جوري
06-12-2013, 02:26 PM
Originally Posted by observer
I agree, but punishment should not be revenge.
These are terms concocted by criminals no one should take joy in either crime or punishment!
Justice should be swift befitting of crime & not dragging on at the expense of the tax payers or abusive of the emotions of the plaintiff.
Until then will we see psychos committing all sorts of heinous crimes and people with no trust in the system who will take matters into their own hands!
Can't have one without the other it's simple laws of physics!
Reply

جوري
06-12-2013, 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by observer
Well, I suppose that's down to personal taste. I like the jury system but I don't think it's good for all cases (complex fraud trials for example). I'm not sure what system would be better either.
A system of the learned. A judicial system of sages who are studied in the law and have no big corporate interest on the side one where the judge runs on knowledge fear of God and a love of justice!
No one ever gets a jury of 'their peers' nor do those involved in the process pick individuals with highly scientific or judicial knowledge to sway the majority.
If you've ever sat for a jury selection then you'll see a pattern of those chosen!
It's actually quite comical with a tinge of tragic!
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-12-2013, 07:34 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
the sentence rights what's wrong
No it doesn't.

This is criminal law. Not civil or contract law. In cases such as this nothing can right what's wrong. You are not going to unscar her face or her mind simply by seeking vengeance. You are only going to do more harm, and if you do it vigilante style, you may be doing that harm to yet another innocent.

Sentences should be about public safety and deterence for the same guy or others doing the act (which may or may not mean killing the guy who did it), and possibly rehabilitation. It should never be about blood lust or vengeance.
Reply

Pygoscelis
06-12-2013, 07:37 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
A system of the learned. A judicial system of sages who are studied in the law and have no big corporate interest on the side one where the judge runs on knowledge fear of God and a love of justice!
No one ever gets a jury of 'their peers' nor do those involved in the process pick individuals with highly scientific or judicial knowledge to sway the majority.
If you've ever sat for a jury selection then you'll see a pattern of those chosen!
It's actually quite comical with a tinge of tragic!
I actually would tend to agree with this. But I'm not sure I trust these "sages" (judges) to be free of political, financial, or other influences. We need to have better transparency and accountability rules in place for them.
Reply

جوري
06-12-2013, 07:48 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
No it doesn't.
Yes it does!


Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This is criminal law. Not civil or contract law. In cases such as this nothing can right what's wrong. You are not going to unscar her face or her mind simply by seeking vengeance. You are only going to do more harm, and if you do it vigilante style, you may be doing that harm to yet another innocent.
It is a play on words you're going for. It is meaningless. It won't give her, her face back but anyone who thinks twice of ruining a young woman's life and face and causing her blindness will go around with the same fate!




Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Sentences should be about public safety and deterence for the same guy or others doing the act (which may or may not mean killing the guy who did it), and possibly rehabilitation. It should never be about blood lust or vengeance.
Sentence should be equal to the crime, there's no rehabilitation in any other sentence or any other form- you ought to read a little about the prison system and how rehabilitative it is. In fact it is not! most of them sit in there looking for the day to get out to do the same crap to someone else and end up back in prison having learned nothing & at the tax payers expense in fact with better privileges than many poor hard working people get!
Reply

Karl
06-12-2013, 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by islamica
That is just plain sick and revolting, this is the difference between those who love their kids and want to protect them and those void of any real feelings.



The hypocrites will cry and whine, especially the so called human "rights" activists. I feel like they should be the first one punished with the same crime so they can see the victim's side for once .

http://s24.postimg.org/r6imlalk5/bahrami.jpg
So being a maniac trying to kill some one with a baseball bat shows how much you love your "kids"? Maybe I should chase some one around the supermarket with a chainsaw if they bump their trolly into one of my "kids", to show how much I love them.
Reply

جوري
06-12-2013, 10:49 PM
This was probably an instinctive reaction by this woman. Try coming near the young of any species and then come report your honest findings with us

Best,
Reply

White Rose
06-12-2013, 11:18 PM
.........
Reply

جوري
06-12-2013, 11:40 PM
I am not sure why people don't trust their instincts more- I think they need to repress that part of them because it doesn't seem rational!
I argue however that the zenith of rationality is illogical!
We have those feelings in us for a reason we've substituted reason for sophistry of words!
Reply

islamica
06-13-2013, 01:54 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
I am not sure why people don't trust their instincts more- I think they need to repress that part of them because it doesn't seem rational!
I argue however that the zenith of rationality is illogical!
We have those feelings in us for a reason we've substituted reason for sophistry of words!
if you have seen idocracy, that is where the western world is headed although i would think most are already there.
Reply

جوري
06-13-2013, 01:57 AM
I haven't will check it out :ia: when have the time
Reply

islamica
06-13-2013, 01:57 AM
Originally Posted by Karl
So being a maniac trying to kill some one with a baseball bat shows how much you love your "kids"? Maybe I should chase some one around the supermarket with a chainsaw if they bump their trolly into one of my "kids", to show how much I love them.
Better to smach his skull in for groping your kids then to tell your kid go ask him for some more love. Like i said, you wouldn't understand, it takes real maternal/paternal love to protect your kids, ---.
Reply

faithandpeace
06-13-2013, 08:46 AM
Atheists trying to teach Muslims on an Islamic forum about justice? I suppose they will be speaking at our masjids next? BTW, I do like much of the gun rights in the U.S. When someone's mother, wife, or daughter is being raped and killed the nearest officer is likely occupied with a radar gun in his hands, a cup of coffee in his lap, and a donut in his mouth unable to help. A gun will solve such problems. Self defense and protection of one's family and community is a human right and a duty and an Islamic value.
Reply

observer
06-13-2013, 09:25 AM
Originally Posted by faithandpeace
A gun will solve such problems. .
Except that American gun laws have demonstrably not made anyone safer. Look at the murder rate!
Reply

sister herb
06-13-2013, 09:46 AM
Originally Posted by islamica
Better to smach his skull in for groping your kids then to tell your kid go ask him for some more love. Like i said, you wouldn't understand, it takes real maternal/paternal love to protect your kids, animals understand it better than most of your kind.
Salam alaykum

Is this what islam teach? Learn to behave like animals? Better to take law to your own hands without proper evidences and forget that there is a law and judges?

:phew
Reply

Hulk
06-13-2013, 11:02 AM
Originally Posted by IslamQA
If it is asked: who is it that should carry out this hadd punishment for zina?

The answer is:

No one should carry out the hadd punishments without the permission of the ruler. If there is no ruler who rules according to sharee’ah then it is not permissible for the ordinary people to carry out the hadd punishments. Whoever does that is sinning, because carrying out the hadd punishments requires examining the matter and requires shar’i knowledge in order to know the conditions of proof.

The ordinary people have no knowledge of such things, and the carrying out of one of the hadd punishments by the ordinary people leads to many evils and the loss of security, whereby people will attack one another and kill one another or chop off one another’s hands on the grounds that they are carrying out hadd punishments.

Al-Qurtubi said:

There is no dispute among the scholars that qisaas (retaliatory punishments) such as execution cannot be carried out except by those in authority who are obliged to carry out the qisaas and carry out hadd punishments etc, because Allaah has addressed the command regarding qisaas to all the Muslims, and it is not possible for all the Muslims to get together to carry out the qisaas, which is why they appointed a leader who may represent them in carrying out the qisaas and hadd punishments.

Tafseer al-Qurtubi, 2/245, 246.

Ibn Rushd al-Qurtubi said:

With regard to the one who should carry out this punishment – i.e., the hadd punishment for drinking alcohol – they agreed that the ruler should carry it out, and that applies to all the hadd punishments.
Source
Reply

جوري
06-13-2013, 01:08 PM
Originally Posted by observer
Except that American gun laws have demonstrably not made anyone safer. Look at the murder rate!
Gun laws of the U.S were initially passed to keep the govt. in check a govt. that governs least governs best type thing. More restriction on guns guarantees only criminals walking around with them- they're not exactly scrupulous at obtaining or using them. Meanwhile the rest are powerless and helpless to govt. thugs and criminals alike
So enjoy that brave new world!
Reply

observer
06-13-2013, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
Gun laws of the U.S were initially passed to keep the govt. in check a govt. that governs least governs best type thing. More restriction on guns guarantees only criminals walking around with them- they're not exactly scrupulous at obtaining or using them. Meanwhile the rest are powerless and helpless to govt. thugs and criminals alike
So enjoy that brave new world!
And it was a good idea at the time perhaps. But there are no militias now in the same way as back then. Times change.

The idea that gun controls mean criminals running riot with guns while the gunless public cowers in their houses is absolutely ludicrous. The rest of the world doesn't have the gun problem the US does. In the UK and Europe as a whole gun crime is still a relatively rare thing.

More guns = more safety is utter NRA nonsense.
Reply

جوري
06-13-2013, 01:52 PM
Originally Posted by observer
And it was a good idea at the time perhaps. But there are no militias now in the same way as back then. Times change.
:haha: then I urge you to have a look again at history with a more keen discerning eye. The newbies didn't amass all that land by being one with govt. that wasn't even formed.

Originally Posted by observer
The idea that gun controls mean criminals running riot with guns while the gunless public cowers in their houses is absolutely ludicrous. The rest of the world doesn't have the gun problem the US does. In the UK and Europe as a whole gun crime is still a relatively rare thing.
ludicrous doesn't an argument make. You should form a complete soci-economic and geo-political picture before reaching a conclusion.



Originally Posted by observer
More guns = more safety is utter NRA nonsense.
Nothing at all to do with safety and everything to do with a good system of checks and balances. People give up their rights out of fear of oppression by their govt. not out of a desire for safety. In fact the U.S now is equivalent to any third world country in terms of despotic govt. and a very ailing economy. And sadly no spiritual compass to keep the folks in check naturally. Crime happens because of all those factors.

best,
Reply

Muhammad
06-13-2013, 01:54 PM
I think this thread has gone on for long enough and it does not look like it is getting anywhere, so let us leave it here :ia:.

Thread closed
Reply

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