Fasting during the long summer days

[greenhill]

Salaam to all.

I am curious. In Malaysia we usually fast from around 5.40am to about 7.20pm. I remember when I was in the UK (studying) I decided to fast and it was from about 3.30am to about 9 something pm. I managed about 3 days and could not complete very much.

With Ramadhan coming soon, I am curious about those who fast near the artic circle. When the day stretches for so long, is it based on hours or strictly according to daylight? If it is, I suppose it evens out when the fasting month occurs in the winter months, very short days. What of those who live in areas that the sun does not set, or the fasting month happens when the sun does not rise?

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

I live near of the artic circle. We use here usually time of Mecca. At this time of the year night here is only 3 hours.

:exhausted

May Allah be mercy to us.

[greenhill]

Thank you sister herb. Much appreciated :D. Phew! Was seriously tempted to go on holiday near the south pole to benefit from 3 hours of fasting.. he he ;D


Guess that is the end of this thread!

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

At the middle of winter day is only 3 hours. :statisfie Then Ramadan is very easy here.

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[greenhill]

Mmmmmmm, ha ha.

But seriously, you would follow the time of Mecca all the time or only when the daylight stretches to for too many hours?

[Samiun]

I decided to fast and it was from about 3.30am to about 9 something pm. I managed about 3 days and could not complete very much.

:sl: so was that during ramadhan or what..? 18 hours of fasting huh, makes life around here seem easier and we still get people complaining about fasting.

[glo]

In my town here in the UK the fasting will start (on the first day of Ramadan) at 3:10 and will end at 21:10. :exhausted

By the last day of Ramadan the fast will have shortened to 4:00 to 20:20.

[sister herb]

Mmmmmmm, ha ha.

But seriously, you would follow the time of Mecca all the time or only when the daylight stretches to for too many hours?

I follow time of Mecca only by Ramadan.

[greenhill]

Yup! During Ramadhan at University in the UK. Fasting month in June. At least at uni we had cooking facilities. Fasted with another Malaysian muslim. Could not do anymore than a few days.. :embarrass Then, after Eid, I heard that we could do equivalent times, sort of, but I wasn't sure. Never really found out. But now on the forum, I can. Only have to ask:D

[glo]

I follow time of Mecca only by Ramadan.

Do you follow the timings of Mecca all year round or only in the summer months when they are virtually impossible to follow according to the daylight hours of your country?

[sister herb]

No. I follow those time of Mecca also during winter at Ramadan.

[glo]

No. I follow those time of Mecca also during winter at Ramadan.

No getting alway lightly in those winter months then! ;D

[sister herb]

No getting alway lightly in those winter months then! ;D

Need to be honest... also at winter.


;D

[ardianto]

I am curious. In Malaysia we usually fast from around 5.40am to about 7.20pm

In western Indonesia time where I live fast around 4.40 to about 6.20.

But in western Indonesia times sunrise prior to 6.00 and sunset is about 6.00 too, while in Malaysia sunrise is baout 7.00 and sunset is about 7.00

Malaysian clock is faster one hour than normal. :p

[greenhill]

Interesting.

I guess in these kinds of situations, it boils down to intentions. To follow Mecca time is fair in the overall scheme of things. If you want to follow daylight then really suffer when it falls in the summer and really benefit in the winter.

So, what time(s) will it for you in your local time if you follow Mecca time during Ramadhan, sister herb?

[crimsontide06]

Why do people follow Mecca time as opposed to where they live?? It is supposed to be from sunrise to sunset...wherever you are. Is choosing Mecca time a go-around to prevent from having to fast during the day? so that you are counting your sleep time as fasting?? lol

[greenhill]

I suppose Finland is not too far off Mecca time.

Crimsontide, we were just talking about those living around the arctic circle where, depending on when the fasting month is, you can have almost no nights to almost no days. Just a topic as we are approaching the month soon.

[glo]

A month of eating nothing would be a tough test for anybody! ;D

[MustafaMc]

I live near of the artic circle. We use here usually time of Mecca. At this time of the year night here is only 3 hours.

Is this a common practice in your area? What is the basis for this practice?

[Iceee]

Firstly, I live in Canada.

So I started fasting at a really young age of 8 years old. The fast would be from 5:30am to around 5:30pm (12 hrs). It would be so easy because during most of the time, we would be at school and the season is Winter (I'm sure you know how Winter is in Canada lol).

Now, Ramadan time is at 3:30am to almost 9pm because of the Summer. And during this time I'm at work in a hot place also (McDonalds at the back where it will be burning hot). I'll keep all 29/30 fasts however because I know it's much harder for other people and especially in the Prophet's time (peace be upon him). If someone living in Africa can fast in that weather, I CAN do it here.

Make intention Inshallah to keep all fast.

[sister herb]

http://www.islamicfinder.org/prayerP...ay=Lappi&lang=

Welcome to our Ramadan...

^o)

[crimsontide06]

http://www.islamicfinder.org/prayerPrintableHijri.php?city2=utsjoki&state=06&id =48881&country2=finland&zipcode=&timez=2.00&dayl=1 &longi=27.0000&lati=69.6667&dayLight=1&pmethod= 1&H anfiShafi=1&dhuhrInterval=1&maghribInterval=1&pray erCustomize=&fajrTwilight=0&ishaTwilight=0&ishaInt erval=0&monthHijri=9&yearHijri=1434&state_display= Lappi&lang=

Welcome to our Ramadan...

Wow!! Here, Maghrib will be at the beginning 8:00 , then will go down to just 7:38

[glo]

http://www.islamicfinder.org/prayerP...ay=Lappi&lang=

Welcome to our Ramadan...

^o)

Why does the sunrise and sunset suddenly switch on the 27th? On the 26th the sun rises at 5:50 and on the next day 4 hours earlier?
I can't work out why it should do that.

Same with the sunset. 20:46 one day and 00:41 the next?

Can you explain?

[Muhaba]

Quite interesting!

Why not go to Mecca and spend Ramadan there instead of using Meccan time. Is there a fatwa that allows using Meccan time?

[sister herb]

Why does the sunrise and sunset suddenly switch on the 27th? On the 26th the sun rises at 5:50 and on the next day 4 hours earlier?
I can't work out why it should do that.

Same with the sunset. 20:46 one day and 00:41 the next?

Can you explain?

I live so north that sun is shinig all night. I don´t stay in Utsjoki but here too my night is now only 3 hours.

:embarrass

[glo]

I live so north that sun is shinig all night. I don´t stay in Utsjoki but here too my night is now only 3 hours.

Oh, so those are the prayer times rather than the actual times for sunrise and sunset?
What or where do the sunrise and sunset times on your link refer to then?

I googled and found out that the days are 24 hours long for the whole of June and most of July.
http://www.sunrise-and-sunset.com/en/finland/utsjoki

[sister herb]

Yes dear. At Utsjoki sun doens´t rise or down at all. :D Day take 24 hours.

[Ramadan90]

I have never heard that it is allowed to follow the time of mecca if you live in another country.

Anyway, I live in Sweden and we will fast 18-20 hours.

http://www.islamiskaforbundet.se/sv/...ttimes&q=1&m=7

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

It is normal here to follow times of the nearest islamic country like Turkey or Saudi Arabia/Mecca.

Some remove fasting to winter if they live in the Lappland (welcome to fast 24 hours every day a month!)

[greenhill]

Sister herb, that would be fasting a whole month! :skeleton:

[glo]

Sister herb, that would be fasting a whole month! :skeleton:

Exactly! It would mean that Muslims could not survive in certain parts of the world.

[Vito]

Found on the net:

Translation from Arabic to English

An extract from a Fatwa no. 575/2010-11-21 by Al-Azhar Al-Sharif

In the name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful

We believe that Muslims living near to the North and South poles and what is close to them; in which the days are long and nights short; have two choices when it comes to fasting Ramadan:

- Either to abide by the timings of the countries in which the Islamic legislations appeared and in which day and night hours are in moderation (Mecca and Medina). That is, to fast the same number of hours as these two cities.

-Or to calculate the hours of fasting in the closest country, in which day and night hours are in moderation; and in which the wisdom of Allah Almighty’s decree of Prayers and Fasting is maintained without resulting in too much exhaustion or fatigue.

As it might not be easy to calculate the closest country to Sweden that maintains this status, we are more inclined towards proposing that Muslims who live in Sweden and other countries with the same situation, to fast the exact number of hours that Muslims fast in Mecca and Medina. Taking into factor, that their fasting starts at the time of Fadjr in their location [Sweden, etc.], without taking into account their day and night hours, nor having to wait for sunset or nightfall to stop fasting.

We reached this conclusion in accordance with what scholars pursue when it comes to estimating the timings of Prayers and Fasting and following the orders of Allah and His guidance in the Holy Quran, as Allah in His mercy says: {Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.} (Surat Albaqarah 2: 185). Allah Almighty also says: {Allah does not charge a soul except [with that within] its capacity.} (Surat Albaqarah 2: 286).

Allah Almighty knows best.

Members of the Fatwa committee

1- Sheikh / Ashour Al-Wakil (Signature)
2- Sheikh /Mohammad Mohammad Awis (Signature)
3- Sheikh / Gamal Abd Al-Samih (Signature)
4- Sheikh / Al-Sayed Al-Kasas (Signature)

Secretary of the committee

Said Amer (Signature)

Seal:* Al-Azhar Al-Sharif

Islamic research complex


The Fatwa committee

Makes perfect sense.

[Muhaba]

Actually there is a hadith about that. I don't remember it exactly, but it was about the anti-Christ and how the day would last a year and another day would last a month, and another day would last a week, etc. The companions asked the Prophet صلى الله عليه و سلم how they would pray in those days. The Prophet told them to calculate the time and pray accordingly.

So while this hadith is about the anti-Christ, it can be used to solve the issue of places with 24 hour days and 24 hour nights. In such places you would calculate the time and pray (and fast) accordingly, instead of fasting 24 hours. I like the idea of using the hours of the nearest Muslim country. Thus, if fast starts at 4 AM and ends at 6 PM in nearby Muslim country, then one can use those timings for their fasts. Also, for prayer, you would calculate the prayer timings since you can't determine them with the movements of the sun. (this would be for those places with 24 hour day or 24 hour night.)

There's an answer to everything in Islam. This is because this religion is from God and God knew that such issues would arise.

[greenhill]

Thank you, Vito :shade:

[Muhammad]

Exactly! It would mean that Muslims could not survive in certain parts of the world.

That is absolutely not true, as the above few posts have just explained. In the very verses related to fasting in the Qur'an, the concept of ease in Islam is highlighted.

183. O you who have believed, decreed upon you is fasting as it was decreed upon those before you that you may become righteous -

184. [Fasting for] a limited number of days. So whoever among you is ill or on a journey [during them] - then an equal number of days [are to be made up]. And upon those who are able [to fast, but with hardship] - a ransom [as substitute] of feeding a poor person [each day]. And whoever volunteers excess - it is better for him. But to fast is best for you, if you only knew.

185. The month of Ramadhan [is that] in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights [the new moon of] the month, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.

[Al-Baqarah 2: 183-185]


The people of old age, the sick and the travellers are all taken into account. In verse 185, the concessions are repeated to emphasise that the religion is ease. Then Allaah :swt: says (interpetation of the meaning), Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship...


And there are many other texts both in the Qur'an and in the Sunnah which make this point. An example from the hadith is where the Prophet :saws: said, '...Allah did not send me to be harsh, or cause harm, but He has sent me to teach and make things easy.' [Muslim 1478, part of a longer hadith].


So in every situation, the circumstances have been accounted for, and Islam is the religion for all times and all places. We rememeber always that our Creator legislated this beautiful religion from His infinite knowledge and perfect wisdom.

[glo]

Muhammad, what I meant to say is that if Muslims had to abide by the daylight hours of their country (as some posters seem to have suggested), they simply would not be able to survive the month of Ramadan in certain parts of the world, where such ruling would mean not being able to break the fast for the entire month.

Your evidence shows otherwise, so I am glad to hear that Muslims can and indeed do exist in every part of the world. :)

[Signor]

edited

[Muhammad]

Muhammad, what I meant to say is that if Muslims had to abide by the daylight hours of their country (as some posters seem to have suggested), they simply would not be able to survive the month of Ramadan in certain parts of the world, where such ruling would mean not being able to break the fast for the entire month.

Yes, that is clearly not the case because it is inconceivable that God would ask us to do something beyond our capability. He has forbidden us to cause harm to our body, how then could he legislate something that forces harm upon us? That is why it's important to speak about these issues based upon knowledge and understanding, as ignorance paves the way to misguidance.

There are a number of scholarly verdicts regarding what to do in places where the sun shines for 24 hours, for example:
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/5842
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...cles&id=152755

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

I think that fasting 24 hours daily is bad to yourself!


:D

[Muhammad]

Narrated Anas bin Malik: A group of three men came to the houses of the wives of the Prophet asking how the Prophet worshipped (Allah), and when they were informed about that, they considered their worship insufficient and said, "Where are we from the Prophet as his past and future sins have been forgiven." Then one of them said, "I will offer the prayer throughout the night forever." The other said, "I will fast throughout the year and will not break my fast." The third said, "I will keep away from the women and will not marry forever." Allah's Apostle came to them and said, "Are you the same people who said so-and-so? By Allah, I am more submissive to Allah and more afraid of Him than you; yet I fast and break my fast, I do sleep and I also marry women. So he who does not follow my tradition in religion, is not from me (not one of my followers)." (Sahih al-Bukhari)

Narrated `Abdullah bin `Amr: Allah's Messenger :saws: was informed that I have said: "By Allah, I will fast all the days and pray all the nights as long as I live." On that, Allah's Messenger :saws: asked me. "Are you the one who says: 'I will fast all the days and pray all the nights as long as I live?' " I said, "Yes, I have said it." He said, "You cannot do that. So fast (sometimes) and do not fast (sometimes). Pray and sleep. Fast for three days a month, for the reward of a good deed is multiplied by ten time, and so the fasting of three days a month equals the fasting of a year." I said, "O Allah's Messenger :saws:! I can do (fast) more than this." He said, "Fast on every third day. I said: I can do (fast) more than that, He said: "Fast on alternate days and this was the fasting of David which is the most moderate sort of fasting." I said, "O Allah's Messenger :saws:! I can do (fast) more than that." He said, "There is nothing better than that." [Sahih al-Bukhari 3418]

[greenhill]

then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.

Perhaps then, there is also the possibility of replacing the month to where the daylight is not so long, provided that it is done before the next ramadhan? I mean, these are extreme situations. So perhaps there can be choices, like prayers while on travel. You are given the flexibility. It will feel odd, I suppose.

Of course if we are replacing the fast we missed, we must be aware to avoid those days we are prohibited to fast.

[Muhammad]

These issues are for the scholars who have knowledge and understanding of the relevant rulings to discuss. Let us avoid suggesting our own opinions :ia:.

[Insaanah]

:salam:

Yup! During Ramadhan at University in the UK. Fasting month in June. At least at uni we had cooking facilities. Fasted with another Malaysian muslim. Could not do anymore than a few days.. :embarrass Then, after Eid, I heard that we could do equivalent times, sort of, but I wasn't sure. Never really found out. But now on the forum, I can. Only have to ask:D

The issue of fasting times other than local times is a very serious one and not to be taken lightly or applied at one's own discretion. There must be extreme circumstances that make scholars get together to consider the facts and issue a verdict. As such, there are none that apply to the UK. Here, there'll be a 18-19 hour fast, and in the longest days, it will be 19-20 hours. Whenever Ramadan has come in midsummer here, people have always fasted those days, without the issue of fasting "other" times ever entering the equation, and they will continue to do so :ia:.

As the links brother Muhammad posted have alluded to, it is not standard practice by everyone in the Scandinavian/Nordic countries to fast Makkah times. Many scholars say if there is no sunrise/sunset, or the time period is so short so as to not fit in iftaar/suhoor/maghrib/ishaa/fajr, then the nearest country with a defined sunrise sunset time to allow time for the meals and prayers, should be followed, and until such a point is reached, fasting should be performed according to local time. So you will find Scandinavians who prefer to fast 21 or 22 hours etc, because they do not believe following Makkah time is justified. And some who don't believe following Makkah time is justified, will, when sunrise/sunset are too close, follow the time of the nearest country with sunrise/sunset.

Perhaps then, there is also the possibility of replacing the month to where the daylight is not so long, provided that it is done before the next ramadhan?

No, because then you have not fasted Ramadaan. That is very important. Who would sacrifice their entire month, just so they could have some comfort? Part of our reward, is for the hunger and thirst we feel. Yet if we try to avoid that, then what is the point? All who witness the month are meant to fast it, not fast other months in place of it. The ayah says, if you are ill or on a journey, then you can fast other days in place of what you missed because of those specified reasons.

You are given the flexibility. It will feel odd, I suppose.

We cannot apply our own flexibility. Whenever people apply their own flexibility in matters of deen, without referring to those of knowledge, mistakenly thinking that it is ok to do so, this has the potential to result in corruption of the deen or people going astray.

Shaytaan will try to tempt us and daunt us that the fast will be so long, it'll be so hot, it's so hard. Lets not give in to that. Those who have the longest fasts, also get the benefit of shorter fasts the other end of the year. Those who have longer fasts, may, and Allah knows best, also get more reward. Neither fast, is as long as that of the one who has nothing to eat.

These two threads are good reads on the virtues of fasting on hot days (which the long summer fasts usually are):
http://www.islamicboard.com/fasting-...ng-summer.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/fasting-...s-ramadan.html

When we think about why we fast, it's importance and reward, it helps put it into perspective.

May Allah make it easy for us and accept it from us, ameen.

And Allah knows best.

[Insaanah]

[...] if they live in the Lappland (welcome to fast 24 hours every day a month!)

Sister herb, that would be fasting a whole month! :skeleton:

Exactly! It would mean that Muslims could not survive in certain parts of the world.

Muhammad, what I meant to say is that if Muslims had to abide by the daylight hours of their country (as some posters seem to have suggested), they simply would not be able to survive the month of Ramadan in certain parts of the world, where such ruling would mean not being able to break the fast for the entire month.

I think that fasting 24 hours daily is bad to yourself!

Just to clarify, that such a situation would never arise, even in places where the sun never sets, in fact it is impossible for it to ever arise. It is erroneous to think that any Muslim would ever end up having to have a 30 day fast where the sun never sets, if there was no dispensation to follow the time of a nearby country. Such suppositions come from looking at one aspect of fasting in isolation, namely dawn and sunset. And therefore concluding that if there wasn't dispensation to follow a nearby country's time, such people would have suhoor (pre-dawn meal) on the first of Ramadan and their next meal would be iftaar at sunset on 29th/30th Ramadan, therefore not being able to eat for a whole month.

When we fast, part of the rules of fasting, is that each day, we are to have suhoor and iftaar. Even when the sun shines all day, all five prayers have to be prayed, not just Zhuhr/'Asr. An authentic hadeeth states that suhoor should be partaken until the Fajr adhaan (Sahih al-Bukhari 622, 623). Do we not pray Fajr daily, even if the sun is risen for sixth months? Another authentic hadeeth states that the difference between the fast of the Muslims and that of the people of the book is that we partake in suhoor (Sunan an-Nasa'i 2166). If we fast for 30 days continuously, then that means for 29 days we did not eat suhoor, which is against this hadeeth, and against others.

Therefore such a situation could never arise, not even hypothetically, even if the sun never set. The fact that we are to have suhoor and iftaar daily for the 29 or 30 days of Ramadan would then lead scholars to consider the best times to follow for this.

And Allah knows best.

[greenhill]

Many points brought up. The difficulty is in the conclusion. Drawing from the above points, and the additional one mentioned by Insaanah

The fact that we are to have suhoor and iftaar daily for the 29 or 30 days of Ramadan

...is a worthy point to note that fasting then cannot be for more than a day as you have to break fast.

Which correlates to the story about 'a day being like a year' (when Dajjal appears) and the question of how to do the prayers when the times are stretched, to which the prophet (s.a.w.) replied words to the effect of measure the time and estimate when you need to do the 5 prayers...

On my above comments and questions, I never had the intention to propagate anything against islamic teachings but when things are highlighted with possible alternatives, then explore it as it does NOT mean that we are looking to 'cop-out' but in search of 'truth'. If we are not able to conclude because of lack of understanding, we put that 'caveat', that it is not a 'fatwa' but just our thoughts on the matter.

Salaam

[User_23338]

I really don't understand why the month of ramadan has to change, why do we follow the moon sighting? why can't Ramadan only be in the winter time?
I really can't fast in the summer time because it's too dang hard, longer hours are never good.

[greenhill]

That's the hidden beauty of lunar months as it is not fixed. Imagine if you happen to live in Australia, It is great for people living in the northern hemisphere as they will always fast shorter hours, but those living in the southern hemisphere will always fast longer hours. With it being lunar, in the long run the hours will average out. If you benefit from shorter hours now, in time you will 'pay back' through the longer hours and vice versa...:statisfie

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum

Time now in my country is same than in Mecca:

http://www.timeanddate.com/time/map/

Fajr here was here at 2:16

Maghrib is 10:45

Isha 12:10

[greenhill]

Isha after midnight!