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View Full Version : Australian Imam calls for gay marriage in mosques on SBS Insight show tonight



hojuruku
08-13-2013, 04:38 PM
Here's part of the transcript. I hope the Moderators can please post the links to the show and the videos.

I will put it on my youtube shortly.

you can go to facebook com /InsightSBS to comment about this with all the others in Australia supporting gay marriage in mosques. tinyurl com /vinnyeastwoodshow for up to date information on proposed laws in Australia to FORCE gay marriage in All mosques.

"Sheikh Mohamadu Saleem says the Koran prohibits homosexuality. However, Imam Daayiee Abdullah performs same-sex Muslim marriages in the United States. Watch the full discussion on Tuesday, 13 August at 8:30pm on SBS ONE or live stream"

JENNY BROCKIE: Imam Daayiee Abdulla in Washington, thank you very much for joining us tonight. You've been listening to all of this. Now you perform same sex Muslim marriages. How can you do that, given the majority view of your fellow Imams on this?

IMAM DAAYIEE ABDULLA: Thank you for inviting me Jenny. What I wanted to say is that I do same sex marriages and have been doing so for the last thirteen years, I'm not the only Imam that does so. I find that the process has been one of dealing with the interpretation and it's always about interpretation and the subjective reasoning that goes behind it. Just speaking about the Sheikh there, salaam to the Sheikh, that his comments saying that it is no, I think that he definitely makes a subjective judgment saying that it is no because I read the same Koran.
He's forgetting about the cultural and historical framework into what was male and what was not male within historical framework of that. I like for him to also look at Sura 24, 30 to 32, where in 24, 31 it clearly states there are men who have no desire for women and then in Sura 24, 32, the Arabic clearly states that people should marry from the single among them without definition as to what the gender should be.
The Koran itself does not say that in clearly in that same way, definitively it must be female or male, but that the person should seek someone who is single because there's a prohibition against having sexual relationships with someone who is already committed in a marriage.

JENNY BROCKIE: Sheikh Mohamadu, what do you think about the Imam performing same sex marriages?

SHEIKH MOHAMADU SALEEM: They know for sure from their own conscience that such marriage is not valid at the moment. We are talking about Islamic traditions. Islamic traditions, it is not valid as an issue in any Court of law in the whole world, in the Sharia Court, it will be thrown out of the Court in just one minute.

JENNY BROCKIE: Okay, Imam Daayiee, your reaction?

SHEIKH MOHAMADU SALEEM: He is giving, he is giving false hope, he is giving a false hope or false impression that these people are married according to Islam, that is not true, that is not true at all.

JENNY BROCKIE: Okay, I'll get a response. I'm very interested in this because I haven't heard a debate like this before.

IMAM DAAYIEE ABDULLA: Well Jenny, I just wanted to say that he's always talking about tradition but those traditions in terms of just heterosexual marriage, it was based upon property and power and tribal relationships. It had nothing to do with just because of the situation of sex and those things. The Koran clearly states that just because you get married and have sex, you're not guaranteed you're going to have children - frequently the interpretation is that it's all about procreation, but it's not, it's about relationships between two human beings and the commitment between them.




VOICEOVER: Since the Netherlands took the lead in 2001, 14 other nations have legislated for same-sex marriage, most recently England and Wales. Some states in Brazil, Mexico and the US have laws enabling same-sex couples to marry. There are also moves to legalise it in places like Scotland, Columbia and Vietnam. Dozens of countries including Cuba, Zimbabwe, Poland, Cambodia, Bulgaria and Australia have legislated against marriage equality.
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hojuruku
08-13-2013, 04:46 PM
comment from the insight facebook page...

Khalil Abu Khadijeh First I want to say something about Islam's view and then comment on the subject as a whole. I am so disappointed that Insight has chosen an Imam who has no deep knowledge on the issue. Even if he is an Imam it doesn't mean he knows it, there are specialists in different areas who know more than the average person on certain aspects. In Islam the first source of legislation is the Quran, and then we use the words of the Prophet Muhammad (PIUH). Both the Quran and the Prophet's teachings are against same sex marriage. Of course anyone can do what they want and nobody is going to stop them, but for the Shiek in the US to say it is Islamic he is totally wrong and unIslamic. Like true Judaism and Christianity we in Islam believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman. Like the good rabbi said that Adam and Eve is the role model for humans is an indication of what we are meant to do. In the past sodomites had same sex relationships and they were all wiped out of the face of planet. Allah ( Arabic for God in Christianity or Olahim in Judaism) punished them by total destruction, as the Angels came down and turn earth upside down on them while they were asleep. The impact was so severe that the place where they were living became the lowest point on Earth, Jericho.

Now. Personally when I look at the issue I look at it from different angles. First, there is the issue of love between man and man, or females. I have no problems with a man loving his friends in a brotherly way, but to be in love with that person is weird. Usually being in love involves having sex, which brings me to my second point. Having sex is biologically safe, and productive if it is between man and woman. It is not natural for men to marry men or women to marry women, because it is not natural for them to have sex. The purpose of having sex other than pleasure is to have children and maintain our lineage. Having a child will not be accomplished by this unnatural act except for adoption. A child which resulted from a natural sperm of a man and the egg of a woman, not the product of same sex marriage. If all men in the world become gay, and all the women in the world become lesbian then we will become instinct, that's how unnatural it is.

Finally, I don't care what people do with sexual organs, in their private world. I do not agree with people insulting or abusing others if they disagree with their choices. I don't insult gays and lesbians and I expect them to do the same. They have their views and I have mine. Nothing will ever change my views about this, but I don't like to see a minority dictating a whole society. Let's have a referendum, this is the democratic way of doing so. When I got married to my beautiful wife I did not go around asking every person in Australia to approve my marriage and I did not even care if the government did, as long as we are in a mutual agreement. This is the Islamic way of getting married, a man proposes, the woman accepts and two people witness the event, writing a contract is not an essential part.

I am not judging anybody on the issue, judgment is the work of God, not mine or anybody else's. I go by what me belief guides me, making my choices from within allowed limits. I do not go astray as this is what the devil is trying to do to humans, by ruining their mind, lifestyle and most importantly, their relationship with their creator.

Peace.
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Hulk
08-13-2013, 05:07 PM
There are always those who want to champion certain "causes", did their teachers give them permission? what makes them think they are knowledgable in the matter and qualified at all? I mean really, who is he?
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hojuruku
08-13-2013, 05:26 PM
i just put the video online. (not full show) its the most recently uploaded video on my youtube channel. youtube com /hojuruku - hopefully someone can embed it here for the benefit of the other users.
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Iceee
08-13-2013, 07:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by hojuruku
i just put the video online. (not full show) its the most recently uploaded video on my youtube channel. youtube com /hojuruku - hopefully someone can embed it here for the benefit of the other users.

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hojuruku
08-14-2013, 10:19 PM
correction US Imam. I've had my other Muslim friends say he is a 'fake' Imam. Can someone tell me if this guy has any credentials to officiate gay marriages in the eyes of Islam.
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جوري
08-14-2013, 10:57 PM
your question is rather odd.. Islam condemns homosexuality and there's no such thing as gay marriage in Islam, so it doesn't really matter what institution 'qualifies' him, his qualifications are null & void. Let me put this in other terms, the institution for religion isn't run nor governed by the state especially so in the west so they've no jurisdiction over what goes on in religious institutions within limits of the law, i.e they're not offering children up for sacrifice or whatever they do in some known cults. And any religious institution gets to define the terms and conditions for its members for simplicity and brevity' sake!

best,
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Muslim Woman
08-15-2013, 04:48 AM
I do same sex marriages and have been doing so for the last thirteen years, I'm not the only Imam that does so

how come gay Muslims are getting married since last 13 years by various Imams and no mainstream media reported about it ? Are the Imams appointed by Mosque authority and they are still appointed there ? Hard to believe all these.
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عابر سبيل
08-15-2013, 05:15 AM
I remember the khutbah I heard for the Eid Prayer after this Ramadan. The imam was warning everyone about the situation, and talking about how the hadith about Al-Ruwaybidah applied to our times. And that is the first thing that comes to mind when I see material like this. The low and unqualified individual speaks on behalf of the people, and on behalf of the religion he is not qualified to speak about. But the honest man who has knowledge, he is shunned and rejected.
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جوري
08-15-2013, 08:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muslim Woman
how come gay Muslims are getting married since last 13 years by various Imams and no mainstream media reported about it ? Are the Imams appointed by Mosque authority and they are still appointed there ? Hard to believe all these.
Anyone can proclaim anything no? I can go dancing in the forest before the fire sacrificing a couple of babies while proclaiming to be a Christian - some Christian protests that's not how we practice Christianity and I say we'll I've been doing it for the past 20 yes how it is that churches don't recognise me? Do people have to acknowledge every moron with a cause that attributes it to some Abrahamic religion? As the brother above said: this is the age of رويبدة every moron with a camera and controversy gets 15 mins of fame and some human rights group who's be surprisingly otherwise mum at human genocides on the side just so long as they perpetuate some cause!
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MustafaMc
08-15-2013, 12:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by جوري
Anyone can proclaim anything no?
You are exactly correct and it certainly applies to this person. Wikipedia says this about Daayiee, " One of the reasons he had began to be called Imam was because he has performed many ceremonies for people in who were considered pariahs in their community due to illnesses or the gender or religion of the person they wished to marry ." There is absolutely nothing that qualifies him to speak in the name of Islam.
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Hasani
08-27-2013, 12:25 AM
Can someone tell me if this guy has any credentials to officiate gay marriages in the eyes of Islam.
What kind of credential does a Muslim need to officiate gay marriages? This is introducing fitna in the society and the people in that particular community should never pray behind that imam.
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hojuruku
01-17-2014, 04:16 PM
The IMAM is a FAKE PROPHET. He's not even an Imam - HE IS A HOMOSEXUAL HIMSELF. And the Australian viewing public on SBS TV were not told the truth...


From Al Jazeera.

Dec 20
Meet America's first openly gay Imam
by The America Tonight Digital Team

Imam Daayiee Abdullah
America Tonight

He’s been condemned by other Muslim leaders, and some local imams have even refused to greet him. But Imam Daayiee Abdullah – believed to be the only openly gay imam in the Americas – is proud of his story.

He was born and raised in Detroit, where his parents were Southern Baptists. At age 15, he came out to them. At 33, while studying in China, Abdullah converted to Islam, and went on to study the religion in Egypt, Jordan and Syria. But as a gay man in America, he saw that lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender Muslims had unmet spiritual needs and he became an imam to provide community support.

“Sometimes necessity is the mother of invention. And because of the necessity in our community, that's why I came into this particular role,” he told America Tonight about his journey.

His first act as an imam? Performing funeral rites for a gay Muslim who died of AIDS.

“They had contacted a number of imams, and no one would go and provide him his janazah services,” he said, referring to the Muslim body cleaning ritual. That pained him.

“I believe every person, no matter if I disagree with you or not, you have the right as a Muslim to have the proper spiritual [rites] and rituals provided for you. And whoever judges you, that will be Allah's decision, not me.”

It’s one of the mantras he lives by in his work, even as others condemn him.
A place for everyone

“The beautiful thing about God is that when you change your attitude, and say, 'God, I need some help,' and mean it sincerely, God is always there for you,” Abdullah told congregants one night during a regular sermon, known as a khutbah, at the Light of Reform Mosque in Washington, D.C.

He serves as the imam and educational director of the mosque, which he helped form more than two years ago to be a safe space for values and practices that other mosques may eschew.

During his service, women and men kneel side-by-side and women are allowed to lead prayers – actions that have sparked controversy even among American Muslims.

"We do not limit people by their gender or their sexual orientation, or their particular aspect of being Muslim or non-Muslim,” he told America Tonight. “They're there to worship."

The mosque’s congregants are diverse and represent a wide range of cultures, religious upbringings and sexual orientations.
"The first time I talked to Imam Daayiee on the phone, I started bawling. I was like, I didn't know there could be a place like this.”

Laila Ali was raised Muslim, but didn’t feel accepted by Islam, because her beliefs fell outside traditional schools of thought. Then, she heard about Abdullah.

“A lot of us started feeling like we only had the choice to either be Muslim in name only and do whatever we want, or leave the religion altogether because there was no place for us,” Ali said. “And the first time I talked to Imam Daayiee on the phone, I started bawling … I was like, I didn't know there could be a place like this.”

Sixty-three percent of the 2.75 million Muslims living in the U.S. are first-generation immigrants, according to the Pew Research Center, many of them coming from countries where same-sex relationships are punishable by law, and in countries such as Saudi Arabia and Sudan, even by death. For its LGBT congregants, the Light of Reform Mosque is a rare safe space.

But not all of them are gay. Many are just Muslims looking for a mosque that accepts all kinds.

Hanaa Rifaey and her husband Rolly grew up going to local mosques with their families, but they say they didn’t really experience the kind of acceptance the way they do at the Light of Reform.

"I think that's exactly why we've wanted to come here,” Rifaey said. “I think it was even more important once we realized that we were starting to have our own family, was that we wanted to have a mosque where our child would feel included and welcome regardless of who he or she had turned out to be."

Imam Daayiee provides other services that are unique for an imam of a Muslim community, like marrying same-sex couples. So far in his 13 years as imam, he has performed more than 50 weddings.

"We're actually out there doing something, making a difference in people's lives," he said.
A raging debate

Not everyone is happy with the mosque.

"Being an openly gay imam and having been identified as such, I do get a lot of feedback and also kickback, but that's OK,” he said. “I think that when people are unfamiliar with things, they tend to have an emotional knee-jerk reaction to it."

But Abdullah is firm in his belief that there has never been “one monolithic, isolated” formulation of Islam. "It's not something that's new. It's just like reform and revival within Islam, about every 100, 150 years there have been these discussions and there have been people who have opposed the status quo on these issues,” he said. “So it's not something that I'm just coming up with as a modern Islamic scholar, but something that has been in existence since time immortal."

Some local imams have refused to greet him, and many others across the country argue his work performing same-sex marriage is not legitimate, and that he should control his “urges.”

“Anyone who has an inclination that is not acceptable, they have to control themselves,” Muzammil Siddiqi, a well-known imam at California’s Islamic Society of Orange County said earlier this year when asked about Abdullah. “If someone has an inclination to commit adultery or an inclination to drink alcohol or a great desire to eat pork, I would say the same thing: control yourselves.”

At the heart of the disagreement is the interpretation of Islam.

“If you go to most Muslim scholars, they're going to tell you that homosexual acts are a sin in Islam; that there's no way around it,” said Dr. Hussein Rashid, an adjunct professor of religion at Hofstra University and contributor to a report on homosexuality in U.S. Muslim communities called the Muslim LGBT Inclusion Project. “I think what we're seeing now not only in the United States, but worldwide really, is a question of going back to sources and rereading these sources,” Rashid added. “But the tradition was and remains that homosexuality is a sin in Muslim tradition."

The various scholars who contributed to the project’s report emphasized that there is no singular interpretation of homosexuality in Islam. By examining historical approaches in different Muslim cultures, the report challenged the idea that LGBT people are not accepted in Islam.

"I think Daayiee is trying to say, 'Yes, I can be gay and I can be a Muslim, and I can tend to people who are also gay and Muslim,' that this is part of their identity as a human being and that the religion of Islam teaches people to embrace all aspects of their humanity," he said.
A growing movement

Though it is unknown how many American Muslims or Muslims around the world are gay, a growing number are vying to be heard.

Several recent films have helped to shed light on LGBT Muslims and their everyday realities.

The most well-known, “A Jihad for Love,” spans 12 countries in nine languages to share the stories of LGBT Muslims. The film “I Am Gay and Muslim” tracks several gay Moroccan men as they explore their religious and sexual identities. And the coming independent film “Naz + Maalik” follows two closeted American Muslim teens as they grapple with FBI surveillance.

Around the world, new spaces are being carved out. Last year, a gay-friendly mosque opened in Paris – Europe’s first. Muhsin Hendricks, an openly gay imam in Capetown, South Africa, has for years been leading congregants and preaching that homosexuality and Islam are not incompatible. And in America, LGBT Muslims have some strong support. The only Muslims in the House of Representatives, Rep. Keith Ellison, D-Minn., and Rep. Andre Carson, D-Ind., have both advocated for gay rights. The group Muslims for Progressive Values, which helped found the Light of Reform Mosque, also has strong presence in Philadelphia and Atlanta, and is growing.

And Abdullah has hope that the message he is working to spread will continue to resonate: "It is our relationship with God and our relationship with each other that really establishes our faith."
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Muhaba
01-17-2014, 06:43 PM
This is really changing of religion. I wish hadrat Umar (R) were here. He'd know how to deal with such problems. The Sahabah always knew how to derive proper solution.
It is because we are without such guides why the world is messed up.
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Muhaba
01-17-2014, 07:50 PM
These people really need to be preached to. They are so much in the wrong and acts like this will cause them to go even more astray because they think this is allowed in islam. but it is not. This is all so much deception.

Do these people not realize that they are going to hell if they continue with gay relations? getting 'married' isn't going to make the relations lawful in the sight of God. What is not allowed by God will never be allowed no matter what. Our aim in this world is to try to get to Heaven. If one changes religion to accommodate personal desires, it will not make the religion acceptable to God.

The story of Prophet Lot's nation is clearly given in the Quran. If homosexuality had any place in islam, God wouldn't have sent a Prophet to preach to that nation and that nation wouldn't have been destroyed by God. That proves that homosexuality is not allowed. How then can anyone legalize it and do gay marriages?
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Ahmad H
01-17-2014, 10:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dreamin
The story of Prophet Lot's nation is clearly given in the Quran. If homosexuality had any place in islam, God wouldn't have sent a Prophet to preach to that nation and that nation wouldn't have been destroyed by God. That proves that homosexuality is not allowed. How then can anyone legalize it and do gay marriages?
Not to mention that the man in the video who argued with the US Imam had the best point, the Islamic institution of marriage, by definition, prohibits gay marriage. Marriage is done so that a man and woman can have children. The Holy Prophet (saw) said Muslims should have many children so that the number of Muslims is great, and not small. Gays cannot reproduce children.

Also, anal sex is prohibited in Islam, so two men getting married is a big no no. Two women are also not allowed to get married. It is simple, there are females and males. They exist so that they can reproduce and further propagate the human race. These European races will die out at the rate in which they hesitate to have children. It's happening and they know it. Gay marriage is a sin.

There are punishments for gays in Islam, because it is Haram. When someone goes through that punishment, then they are not to engage in homosexuality after that, the punishment is for their reform, so they are forgiven for their sin and punished for it in this world, to save them from punishment in the Hereafter. Thus, that punishment for it is to prevent further homosexuality. A person is rejecting the Holy Qur'an by being gay, thus Islam and homosexuality cannot co-exist, by the very definition of faith in the Holy Qur'an. If you reject even a single verse of the Holy Qur'an, then you reject all of Islam. Thus, homosexuals, who reject Allah's Words on how homosexuality is forbidden, are rejecting the Qur'an. How can they even think they remain Muslim by being what they are?

Sexual orientation is a choice, and those who think differently are confused people. To be blunt, we all have our genitals for a very good reason. God gave them to us, so use it for good, not for evil. At the end of the day, it comes down to doing the right thing. Propagate the human race and give back to humanity, or contribute nothing to the gene pool in humanity.
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crimsontide06
01-18-2014, 03:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Sexual orientation is a choice, and those who think differently are confused people. To be blunt, we all have our genitals for a very good reason.

This I disagree with 100% Yes, homosexuality is a sin but the sexual urges are in their DNA...it's the same with paedophiles...it's a psychological issue.....

I read somewhere that it is the act that is a sin and as long as a gay person never acts upon their homosexual feelings, then they will not be punished for their feelings...
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jameelash
01-18-2014, 03:05 PM
Salam.tnis imam is supposed to be a fake muslim .all he want publicity.nd that he sure to have achieved.such people r not worth disdiscussing.may Allah give him hidayath aameen
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'Abd-al Latif
01-18-2014, 07:36 PM
This ignorant man is not an imam. He's an absolute fool who is woefully ignorant of Islam.

He should be banned from preaching Islam until he sees a psychiatrist and then attends an Islamic primary school.

وَلُوطًا إِذْ قَالَ لِقَوْمِهِ أَتَأْتُونَ الْفَاحِشَةَ مَا سَبَقَكُم بِهَا مِنْ أَحَدٍ مِّنَ الْعَالَمِينَ

And (remember) Lot when he said to his people: "Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the 'Aalameen (mankind and jinn)? (Quran 7:80)


وَلَمَّا جَاءَتْ رُسُلُنَا إِبْرَاهِيمَ بِالْبُشْرَىٰ قَالُوا إِنَّا مُهْلِكُو أَهْلِ هَـٰذِهِ الْقَرْيَةِ ۖ إِنَّ أَهْلَهَا كَانُوا ظَالِمِينَ

...verily, we are going to destroy the people of this town (i.e. the town of Sodom); truly, its people have been wrongdoers, polytheists disobedient to Allah, and belied their Messenger Lot. (Quran 29:31)
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observer
01-18-2014, 11:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Sexual orientation is a choice, and those who think differently are confused people. .
I can only assume you've never actually met a gay person.
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ardianto
01-19-2014, 01:44 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Sexual orientation is a choice, and those who think differently are confused people
Only bisexual people who can choose their sexual orientation. But homo cannot switch into hetero.

Bisexual people actually can live normally, get married with opposite gender, if they focus their desire only to opposite gender. They still have desire to same gender but it's getting lower and they can control it.

However, if they prefer homosexuality, then they can turn into gay because their desire to opposite gender will getting lower.

Not every gay is pure homo, there are many of them who actually just bisexual people.

The biggest factor that can make bisexual people (or people with tendency to bisexual) choose sexual orientation is the society view on homosexuality. If homosexuality become normal and acceptable, they will not hesitate to choose homosexuality.

I understand that gays want to have partner and feel a love. But they must know the limit. They should not invite other people to homosexuality with promote homosexuality as normal and acceptable behavior.

Call for gay marriage is a way to make homosexuality become normal. Ironically it's happen in society where a man and a woman can live together without getting married.
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'Abd-al Latif
01-21-2014, 04:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
I can only assume you've never actually met a gay person.
I have. And I recall gay people always saying that they've "made a choice to be gay", until all this garbage about being born gay emerged out of the sewage.

It's in the innateness in human beings to desire the opposite gender and it's gross deviation to want the same gender. Even children have an aversion to homosexuality without ever being taught if it's right or wrong.

Homosexuality is a choice and facts can never be argued with.
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observer
01-21-2014, 05:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
I have. And I recall gay people always saying that they've "made a choice to be gay", until all this garbage about being born gay emerged out of the sewage.

It's in the innateness in human beings to desire the opposite gender and it's gross deviation to want the same gender. Even children have an aversion to homosexuality without ever being taught if it's right or wrong.

Homosexuality is a choice and facts can never be argued with.

When did that come out then? What facts are you speaking of?

Your statements are wrong and offensive. When people criticise the intolerance of islam in the media - this is what they are criticising.
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'Abd-al Latif
01-21-2014, 05:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
When did that come out then? What facts are you speaking of?

Your statements are wrong and offensive. When people criticise the intolerance of islam in the media - this is what they are criticising.
The facts I'm speaking of are how gay people have always said to have made a choice I.e. they changed their preferences from natural to unnatural at some point in their lives. This fact has been evident my whole life from the mouths of gay people themselves.

The claim that homosexuality is biological remains a claim as it is yet to be conclusively demonstrated.

These are the facts that I'm talking about it.
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observer
01-21-2014, 05:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
The claim that homosexuality is biological remains a claim as it is yet to be conclusively demonstrated.
As does the claim that it is not.

When did gay people ever say they chose to be gay? I must have missed that.
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'Abd-al Latif
01-21-2014, 05:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
As does the claim that it is not.

When did gay people ever say they chose to be gay? I must have missed that.
Then I can only assume you've never met a gay person.
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ardianto
01-21-2014, 05:45 PM
Not every man who has sexual orientation to same gender ever involved in homosexual activity, and not every man who have sex with another man is gay.

Being gay is not a choice, but have sex with same gender is a choice.
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'Abd-al Latif
01-21-2014, 07:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Not every man who has sexual orientation to same gender ever involved in homosexual activity, and not every man who have sex with another man is gay.

Being gay is not a choice, but have sex with same gender is a choice.
How can you not have a choice in something that's sinful?? Every sin that is committed is committed by a choice. Whether it's feelings for the opposite gender or everything after that - they're all choices.

The basic principle in Islam is that everything that can potentially lead to a sin is in itself a sin and is therefore forbidden.

If you mean one just happens to feel something then he or she has the ability to control it, seek refuge in Allah and do good deeds to put away these thoughts but letting it become a desire is sinful.

If you're referring to feelings that happen to just pass through a person momentarily but then that person works hard to move past these feelings, and eventually does, then we have no argument. But if you're referring to these feelings maturing to become desire than your understanding is mistaken.

When Lut (a.s) was arguing with his people about their homosexual behaviour he condemned them by saying:

أَتَأْتُونَ الْفَاحِشَةَ مَا سَبَقَكُم بِهَا مِنْ أَحَدٍ مِّنَ الْعَالَمِينَ

"Do you commit the worst sin such as none preceding you has committed in the 'Aalameen (mankind and jinn)?" (Quran 7:80)

In this verse Lut appeals to his people via reason I.e how can they even think of such a thing? Therefore, it makes no sense to say that gay feelings are acceptable yet practising it isn't!
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observer
01-21-2014, 08:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
How can you not have a choice in something that's sinful?? Every sin that is committed is committed by a choice. Whether it's feelings for the opposite gender or everything after that - they're all choices.

I know many gay people, the vast majority of whom are in loving relationships. Like the loving relationship I have with my girlfriend. Exactly the same. Equal.

When we see bigotry such as you display against gay people displayed against muslims - how do you react? Bigotry is bigotry and your comments here are incredibly bigoted.
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'Abd-al Latif
01-21-2014, 08:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
I know many gay people, the vast majority of whom are in loving relationships. Like the loving relationship I have with my girlfriend. Exactly the same. Equal.

When we see bigotry such as you display against gay people displayed against muslims - how do you react? Bigotry is bigotry and your comments here are incredibly bigoted.
I'm not intolerant towards different opinions and you're very judgemental to jump to that conclusion. The proof of that is that you twice said to me "you're wrong" whereas I made no such assertion towards you.

What I did say however - albeit very strongly and I do not and will not retract my statements - is that homosexuality is a choice and all this I'm-born-gay-so-I-can't-help-it nonsense is a load of garbage. Homosexuality is a choice and I have a strong aversion to it and that isn't going to change.

This does not make me a bigot.

EDIT:

To add to this, I will speak out against this so-called, self-styled/self labeled "imam" in the strongest terms because his actions equal to desbelief. The most basic principle of Islam which even the most ignorant Muslim understands is that changing any part of the religion is disbelieving in all of Islam. He's calling towards something that is forbidden in so many levels and yet he somehow has to nerve to call his actions Islamic.
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observer
01-21-2014, 10:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
I'm not intolerant towards different opinions
Yes, your tolerance towards homosexuals shines through.
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'Abd-al Latif
01-21-2014, 11:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
Yes, your tolerance towards homosexuals shines through.
Does that make me a bigot? I beg to differ.
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observer
01-22-2014, 12:29 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
Does that make me a bigot? I beg to differ.
Yes. Yes it does.

Not liking homosexuality is one thing - you're completely entitled to disapprove. The way you object is bigoted and ugly. You wouldn't accept someone talking about your religion the way you have about homosexuality, would you?
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ardianto
01-22-2014, 12:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
How can you not have a choice in something that's sinful?? Every sin that is committed is committed by a choice. Whether it's feelings for the opposite gender or everything after that - they're all choices.

The basic principle in Islam is that everything that can potentially lead to a sin is in itself a sin and is therefore forbidden.
What I mean with "gay" is man who interested only to the men, not the women. Being a man like this is not by choice. If they could choose they would not choose being a man like this.

Just like normal men who spontaneously feel something in their heart when they see attractive woman, the gays also spontaneously feel something when they see an attractive man. It's happen spontaneously, which they cannot control it.

I know it not because I am gay. I am not gay, but .......

Frankly, one thing that make me grateful is beauty that Allah has given to me. It's not only made me easy to find a woman who wanted to be my partner, but also made me familiar with gaze of people when they felt something when they looked at me. I say people because few of them were males!

But I saw two different attitude of those men. There were of them who tried to control themselves and didn't do something wrong to me. There were of them who then tried to seduce me. Even one of them made intensive approachment because he wanted to be my 'boyfriend'.

Not every man who being gay surrender to their desire to the male. I know a man who I believe is gay, but he choose to live celibacy. He is almost 60 now. I also know few gays who ever active in homosexuality, but now they have repented and tried to not back to their bad habit again.

I know they still feel a desire when they see an attractive man. It's happen spontaneously which they cannot control. But then they try to control themselves to not surrender to their desire.

Do you know how heavy their struggle in controling themselves to not fall into sin?. So, should we punish them or we should support them to make them stronger in passing difficulty in their life?.

But of course, we cannot let the gays who want to influence people to accept homosexuality as normal behavior. Not only sin, but it also can make non-gays interested to try homosexuality. Like I've said, not every man who involved in homosexuality is gay.
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'Abd-al Latif
01-22-2014, 12:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
Yes. Yes it does.

Not liking homosexuality is one thing - you're completely entitled to disapprove. The way you object is bigoted and ugly. You wouldn't accept someone talking about your religion the way you have about homosexuality, would you?
I'm not going to argue with you by repeating myself. I've already made my point.
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Muhaba
01-22-2014, 08:33 PM
Homosexuality is abnormal. No one is born gay. Some are gay because sometime when they were growing up, for one reason or another (not necessarily abuse) they were 'programmed' to become gay. I already wrote about this in another thread.

There are various reasons why homosexuality is abnormal and not normal human functioning. For one thing, reproduction only occurs through heterosexual relations. Another reason is that the male and female complement each other and the normal system is one of harmony both at the family level and at the level of society. On the other hand, homosexuality doesn't allow for harmony. In the normal male-female relation system, men and women have beautiful relations not only with the opposite sex but also with their own sex. Women are not other women's enemies and men are not other men's enemies. There is no competition amongst the people. On the other hand, gays (men and women) cannot have a normal friendly relationship with the opposite sex. They start competing with the opposite sex to such a level that they become enemies of the opposite sex.

A third reason is that God made pairs for a reason. And just like magnets, humans are sexual attracted to the opposite gender.
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Muhaba
01-22-2014, 08:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
I have. And I recall gay people always saying that they've "made a choice to be gay", until all this garbage about being born gay emerged out of the sewage.
It's in the innateness in human beings to desire the opposite gender and it's gross deviation to want the same gender. Even children have an aversion to homosexuality without ever being taught if it's right or wrong.
Homosexuality is a choice and facts can never be argued with.
I totally agree with you. I was looking into some statements made by gays and many gays said they found themselves attracted to the opposite gender. Some said that they got feelings which made them confused. That further proves that attraction to the opposite gender is innate. You'll never find a heterosexual person say there were times when they were attracted to their own gender. But here are gays saying there are times when they feel an attraction to the opposite gender.

It seems that all the information about homosexuality that is being circulated amongst youngsters has gotten people confused about their sexuality.
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observer
01-23-2014, 04:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dreamin
On the other hand, gays (men and women) cannot have a normal friendly relationship with the opposite sex.

What? Are you serious? "Gays" can't have a normal, friendly relationship with people of the opposite sex? I cannot comprehend how you can arrive at that conclusion. It's just so wrong in so many ways.
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ardianto
01-23-2014, 04:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Dreamin
On the other hand, gays (men and women) cannot have a normal friendly relationship with the opposite sex. They start competing with the opposite sex to such a level that they become enemies of the opposite sex.
Gays can have normal friendship with opposite gender, even feminine male gay are closer to women than men in friendship. Male gays are attracted to a man, but they do not compete with women. If they realize the man who their like is normal man who like woman, they will retreat.
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'Abd-al Latif
01-23-2014, 09:32 PM
^

I don't fully get you. Are you for or against gays?
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ardianto
01-24-2014, 12:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
^

I don't fully get you. Are you for or against gays?
I against homosexuality, and I stand with homosexual people who want to stay away from homosexuality.

I've ever described homosexual people as people in disease. Yes, they are suffer from something that they never want to get. If they could choose, they would not choose to be homosexual.

There are among them who know that homosexuality is sin and wrong. They want to leave homosexuality and want to stay away from it, and they need our support. But if we see them as sinner who should to be punished and we push them away, they would stay with those who enjoy homosexuality.

We should help them, and at first we need to understand them. If I made post that seem like defend them, it's because I tried to make people here understand about them.

Of course, not every homo is good. There are many of them who enjoy homosexuality, and even try to 'infect' homosexuality to other people.

I am sure, those who support gay rights object with term "infect" which I use. But if they have ever seen what I have seen, maybe they will understand why I say like this.

We should fight homosexuality, but we also should help those who suffer from this 'disease'. Of course, with the right way, not with let them enjoy this disease.

I have met gay people, I had interact them, I noticed how their life. And I asked myself "If I was gay, how would I feel, how should I live my life?"
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ardianto
01-24-2014, 12:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
I can only assume you've never actually met a gay person.
I am sure you have met gay people. But how did you know that they are gays?.

Interact with people who tell us they are gays, and interact with people who don't tell us they are gays but their attitude and behavior clearly show they are gays, will give us different view on them.
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faithandpeace
01-24-2014, 02:22 AM
Assalamu alaikum. Islam is submission to Allah (swt). Whether or not someone chooses to be homosexual or seems to be born that way the fact is that homosexuality has been prohibited by Allah (swt) and this information has been revealed to us via the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Our opinion on the matter is irrelevant. The same goes with drinking alcohol or eating pig. People can argue that a bit of alcohol can settle one's stomach or that some pork products taste good or that a little of these things won't cause physical harm. People argue that homosexuality when done privately behind closed doors does not hurt anyone either. Whether or not any of these positions have merit is irrelevant. Allah (swt) has prohibited these things. If Allah (swt) tells us to stay away from homosexuality then as Muslims we are required to do so. People who consider themselves homosexuals will obviously find such prohibition to be a struggle in their lives but the same goes with anyone else committing any other kind of sin. We must not forget that Islam means submission and that it is our obligation to submit to Allah's (swt) will regardless. Conquer your nafs and guard against waswas insha'Allah.
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Iceee
01-24-2014, 03:22 AM
Salaam.

This thread is turning deadly red. Let's get back on track :)


format_quote Originally Posted by Dreamin
Homosexuality is abnormal. No one is born gay. Some are gay because sometime when they were growing up, for one reason or another (not necessarily abuse) they were 'programmed' to become gay.
Please see: http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...e-nurture.html

I agree with your comment, based on my own personal experiences. I'll agree that nobody is born "gay" or homosexual, it's not nature, but nurture that determines your sexual orientation.

A lot of my friends who have gotten married recently, I've noticed had a similar childhood as me. Born and raised by both Muslim parents, going outside everyday to play sports, going to the same school etc. So for all of us being "straight" and getting married to girls was the norm I guess. We didn't talk about girls much, we just played safe and avoided talking about sex and stuff like that. I guess we were programmed that way, that thinking such thoughts was nasty, and that we will have the most fun when we get married... to our wife.



format_quote Originally Posted by Dreamin
I totally agree with you. I was looking into some statements made by gays and many gays said they found themselves attracted to the opposite gender. Some said that they got feelings which made them confused. That further proves that attraction to the opposite gender is innate. You'll never find a heterosexual person say there were times when they were attracted to their own gender. But here are gays saying there are times when they feel an attraction to the opposite gender.
As for people who are attracted to the same gender, here's my experience. ALL of the gay people I've talked to and watched had a different childhood upbringing. Whether it be raised by a single mother, having older siblings who bullied them, staying at home all day, getting bullied (sometimes by their Dad), etc. So many factors changed their lives differently than mine or my childhood friends. Even different than your lives, think about it...

I've asked my gay friends if they maybe were in fact attracted to girls, their answer, no. They believe they were born gay.

We all have different opinions, assumptions, and experiences. Let's not hate each-other for our opinions, let's love one another as the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) loved his companions. We all grew up differently, in different countries, in different homes, in different families, so to assume we all have one opinion, well, that will make us boring :).

To conclude, we all have/had different experiences in our past. Maybe someone may seem to hate gay people, maybe someone may like them as good friends, we're all different.
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observer
01-24-2014, 10:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
I am sure you have met gay people. But how did you know that they are gays?.

Interact with people who tell us they are gays, and interact with people who don't tell us they are gays but their attitude and behavior clearly show they are gays, will give us different view on them.
Because they were open about their sexuality and rightly not ashamed. Because I am friends with gay men and women and their partners. I think if people don't agree with homosexuality then ok, that's their personal right. But as soon as words like "unnatural" and worse get thrown around, then I think a line's been crossed.
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InToTheRain
01-24-2014, 03:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
Because they were open about their sexuality and rightly not ashamed. Because I am friends with gay men and women and their partners. I think if people don't agree with homosexuality then ok, that's their personal right. But as soon as words like "unnatural" and worse get thrown around, then I think a line's been crossed.
If you believe Homosexuality is naturally inherent in some individuals therefore it is justified then what of incest? Bestiality?

As Muslims we know that all human beings are born with a natural affinity, the Fitrah, towards that which is true and good. So we can't agree that someone is homosexual inherently. Rather they are influenced and succumb to it. Some people are more passionate, pronounced and sensitive then others and they can use these gifts/characteristics correctly or incorrectly as is the case with homosexuals.

Also Islamic law tends to nip the bud at its roots. Homosexuality is a practice which can lead to the extinction of mankind should everyone decide to practice it; even if the possibility is 0.01%. Just because it doesn't pose such a threat now doesn't mean we should open the flood gates.

I am no homophobe (well at least I don't think so :) ); hate the action not the crime as the saying goes. I have no problem getting along with homosexuals (come across many at work) but what they are doing and encouraging is wrong and unnatural. I agree with it being classified as a mental disease as it was done so before 1973 and those who encourage this strain of mental thought are not helping.
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observer
01-24-2014, 07:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by InToTheRain
If you believe Homosexuality is naturally inherent in some individuals therefore it is justified then what of incest? Bestiality?
Do you really equate homosexuality with incest and bestiality? Really? If you do, I honestly think you need to evaluate your own mindset. That's just a disgusting, ridiculous comparison.

And calling homosexuality a mental disease - have you any idea how many homosexuals suffered horrifically because of this draconian legislation? How many suicides it caused? If homosexuality was truly a choice, why would people choose to be punished so?

I just cannot understand this line of thinking that says homosexuality is chosen - it flies in the face of all the evidence and is just plainly wrong.

I try to stand up for islam if ever I hear it being defamed but I see threads like this and I just think "why bother?" . Why defend one minority group so that they are free to abuse another minority group? What's more, I've heard gay friends of mine defend islam and to hear them abused like this is just utterly, utterly sickening. These attitudes are embarrassing and completely out of touch with reality.

Homosexuality is as natural having black hair, or being left handed, or being born white or black. How many marriages have been wrecked because one partner had married in order to try to conform and to hide their true sexuality?

It's just so depressing reading threads like this. You don't have to be friends with homosexuals. You don't have to like them. You don't have to welcome them into your home or your place of worship. Ignore them if you want. But just leave them alone. Stop attacking them.

How many threads have been on here highlighting insults towards muslims? Yet insults towards homosexuals are all over the forum. What's that saying about earning respect before demanding it?

Shameful.
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InToTheRain
01-24-2014, 09:03 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
Do you really equate homosexuality with incest and bestiality? Really? If you do, I honestly think you need to evaluate your own mindset. That's just a disgusting, ridiculous comparison.
Shameful.
Please elaborate, how can homosexuality be seen as natural but incest is seen as disgusting and ridiculous? On what basis? Numbers? the affection of the people in question? Aren't the sentiments you so clearly show towards incest the very same that was held for Homosexuals not so long ago? What's the deciding factor?
Also it appears that there is an argument for it being part of the genetic make up
http://www.theguardian.com/theguardi...kend7.weekend2

So observer. are you all for incest now? Isn't there a stronger argument for incest being more natural then homosexuality?

But yet you have a strong disgust for it because you were bought up in an environment, society and culture where it is seen as morally wrong.

I am not trying to insult anyone and you are simply finding it insulting because you have missed the point so I will try explain again and hope you do not go into an emotional meltdown. There is not proof to say that Homosexuality is natural and as I have stated the Islamic perspective is that it develops later; as you yourself have stated it breaks marriages because the partner hasn't come out the "closet" but this doesn't prove that it's natural inherent no more then it proves some are born to be two timing cheats. If someone has these urges then they should consider it a trial or test; just like someone might have the urge to commit incest, or even have an affair; they should stop such urges as it is morally wrong and patiently endure till it goes. Such things lead to corruption within society as it breaks families and friends.
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observer
01-24-2014, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by InToTheRain
Please elaborate, how can homosexuality be seen as natural but incest is seen as disgusting and ridiculous? On what basis? Numbers? the affection of the people in question? Aren't the sentiments you so clearly show towards incest the very same that was held for Homosexuals not so long ago? What's the deciding factor?
Let's take your point there: homosexuality can be seen as equal to incest. OK, so I suppose then, following that line of argument, that worshipping Allah can be seen as equal to worshipping any other god, no? Or do you distinguish some difference?

Just because homosexuality was seen as wrong a while ago doesn't make it right that it was seen so. Following the teachings of Muhammed was also seen as blasphemous and wrong in the west up until fairly recently: should we take that as precedent?
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جوري
01-24-2014, 11:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
following that line of argument, that worshipping Allah can be seen as equal to worshipping any other god, no? Or do you distinguish some difference?
does it really matter who I worship or whom you deem me worshipping? What an unusual argument.
Religion isn't lewd sexual acts, I am not sure where you even come up with these very bizarre comparisons, it is as if you write just for the heck of it!
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InToTheRain
01-24-2014, 11:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
Let's take your point there: homosexuality can be seen as equal to incest. OK, so I suppose then, following that line of argument, that worshipping Allah can be seen as equal to worshipping any other god, no? Or do you distinguish some difference?
Following from that line of argument it would mean that Worshipping Allah is the right thing to do. Homosexuality and incest are wrong which would be the equivalent of worshipping other gods.

Just because homosexuality was seen as wrong a while ago doesn't make it right that it was seen so. Following the teachings of Muhammed was also seen as blasphemous and wrong in the west up until fairly recently: should we take that as precedent?
I agree and that is not the reason why homosexuality is wrong. I have already given my reasons for why it is wrong so what is your reason for thinking it's right?
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Muhammad
01-25-2014, 12:38 AM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by observer
It's just so depressing reading threads like this. You don't have to be friends with homosexuals. You don't have to like them. You don't have to welcome them into your home or your place of worship. Ignore them if you want. But just leave them alone. Stop attacking them.

How many threads have been on here highlighting insults towards muslims? Yet insults towards homosexuals are all over the forum. What's that saying about earning respect before demanding it?
We must make a distinction between speaking out against a wrong and needlessly attacking a person/group. By pointing out the errors in a particular behaviour and attempting to discuss how to tackle the problem, a positive outcome is hoped for and it is not an attack (although sometimes people can make unhelpful remarks). A number of times people have said they are not attacking the person, rather they hate the action. And in a thread specifically on the issue of homosexuality being promoted in Mosques, it is all the more appropriate for Muslims to raise their concern and point out the Islamic teachings in this regard. Something concerning our very places of worship cannot be ignored and left alone. But once again, it does not mean we advocate dealing with such people unjustly.

In terms of your comparison with insults towards Muslims, that is a wholly different matter. People are often accusing Muslims of things which Islam does not even endorse, hence there is no justification in what they say, nor do they seek to resolve anything through their misplaced insults.

Now I am closing this thread as we have had many discussions on this topic and I don't think much is going to be achieved by allowing this one to continue.

Thread closed.
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