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loveofgod
08-18-2013, 06:53 PM
I am curious about Muslims view of baptism. What does the Koran have to say about it? I noticed that John the baptist is also mentioned and that Muslims believe in him too. How do Muslims do the baptism? Any info much appreciated. thanks.
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Iceee
08-18-2013, 07:11 PM
Originally Posted by loveofgod
I am curious about Muslims view of baptism. What does the Koran have to say about it?
It should be noted that the child’s being baptized does not actually make him a Christian, rather he is a Muslim who follows the religion of his Muslim father, and he cannot become a Christian unless he understands Christianity and chooses it for himself. As for his baptism, he has no choice in the matter, and it does not affect the religion which Allaah created in him, which is Islam.
Try by all means to protect this child and prevent him being taught Christian teachings. Remember that you are responsible for him and that the worst neglect and betrayal of this trust would be to leave him disbelieving in Allaah.
We ask Allaah to protect you and your offspring and to divert evil away from them.

Taken from: http://islamqa.info/en/107462


Originally Posted by loveofgod
How do Muslims do the baptism?
Question: Is there a baptism in Islam? Was being baptized ever done in Islam?

Answer: In the Name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful Assalamu alaikum,Thank you for your question.

There is no baptism in Islam in the sense that it exists in the Christian tradition.There are, however, practices that welcome the baby into the community of believers, including the calling of the adhan (call to prayer) and iqama (reminder to stand up to pray) in the ear of the newborn and the aqiqa celebration in which the community gathers to celebrate the birth of the infant and pray for him or her.Adults who embrace Islam are required to state the testification of faith (”There is no god but God and Muhammad, peace be upon him, is the messenger of God”) in front of witnesses. Often, they will take a Muslim name, although this is not required.May Allah reward you,Zaynab Ansari
Taken from: http://islamqa.org/hanafi/seekersguidance-hanafi/76145


Originally Posted by loveofgod
I noticed that John the baptist is also mentioned and that Muslims believe in him too.
Salaam / Peace Be Upon You

Please visit: http://www.soundvision.com/info/jesu...ophetyahya.asp and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_th...n_the_Qur.27an
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sister herb
08-18-2013, 07:19 PM
I have no glue to this matter. In my country they are real minority (about 2400 - thanks about information to Wiki). I wonder have I ever met any of them; very possible that I haven´t. I have no idea how they even believe... :embarrass
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Futuwwa
08-18-2013, 11:40 PM
There is no such thing in Islam.
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MustafaMc
08-19-2013, 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by loveofgod
I am curious about Muslims view of baptism. What does the Koran have to say about it?
The Qur'an does not mention baptism.
I noticed that John the baptist is also mentioned and that Muslims believe in him too.
Yes, in the Qur'an he is known as Yahya, just like Jesus is 'Isa and Moses is Musa.
How do Muslims do the baptism? Any info much appreciated. thanks.
There is no baptism or sprinkling of infants. Upon converting to Islam by stating the testimony of faith, "There is no go except Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah" one takes a full bath or shower known in Arabic as 'ghusl' which is the same that is done by Muslims after sexual relations between man and wife or wet dream. Which is a ritual act of cleansing.
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glo
08-19-2013, 12:47 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Upon converting to Islam by stating the testimony of faith, "There is no go except Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah" one takes a full bath or shower known in Arabic as 'ghusl'
I didn't know that was done after saying Shahadah.

Certainly the concept of cleansing and purifying runs through both practices - baptism and Shahadah. :statisfie

I struggle to see child baptism/Christening as anything more that family and friends making a promise to raise the child in the Christian faith - until it is old enough to make a personal declaration of faith.
Different denominations have a different view on this.
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loveofgod
08-19-2013, 04:03 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
The Qur'an does not mention baptism.
Yes it does. I found this while looking for more information on the subject 2:138. "(Receive) the baptism of Allah and who is better than Allah in baptizing? And Him do we worship."
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sister herb
08-19-2013, 04:58 PM
Surat Al-Baqarah (The Cow) - سورة البقرة
2:138

Sahih International
[And say, "Ours is] the religion of Allah . And who is better than Allah in [ordaining] religion? And we are worshippers of Him."

^o)
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Signor
08-19-2013, 05:29 PM
Originally Posted by loveofgod
Yes it does. I found this while looking for more information on the subject 2:138. "(Receive) the baptism of Allah and who is better than Allah in baptizing? And Him do we worship."
EPIC FAIL!!

Translation taken from Anti Muslims site (answering-islam)

http://www.*********************/Qur...r/002_138.html

For next time,use quran.com
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loveofgod
08-19-2013, 06:52 PM
Originally Posted by Signor
EPIC FAIL!!
What do you mean epic fail? I have a Koran translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali. And he also translates it as follows: (Our religion is) the Baptism of Allah: And who can baptize better than Allah? And it is He Whom we worship.

There are many other translations of this verse. Who can say whose translation is better or correct? How can you know?
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glo
08-19-2013, 07:46 PM
I found four translations in English side by side:

002.138
Sibghata Allahi waman ahsanu mina Allahi sibghatan wanahnu lahu AAabidoona
YUSUFALI: (Our religion is) the Baptism of Allah: And who can baptize better than Allah? And it is He Whom we worship.
PICKTHAL: (We take our) colour from Allah, and who is better than Allah at colouring. We are His worshippers.
SHAKIR: (Receive) the baptism of Allah, and who is better than Allah in baptising? and Him do we serve.
KHALIFA: Such is GOD's system, and whose system is better than GOD's? "Him alone we worship."

Another one I read referred to 'being dyed' by Allah.
Certainly looks like this is a kind of blessing performed directly by Allah. (I am reminded by the image of 'being baptised in God's spirit' ...) Nothing to do with a human ritual.
(Of course I don't know and I am speaking as a non-Muslim here. Does anybody more knowledgeable want to comment?)

http://www.universalunity.net/quran4/002.qmt.html
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جوري
08-20-2013, 01:33 AM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
The Qur'an does not mention baptism.Yes, in the Qur'an he is known as Yahya, just like Jesus is 'Isa and Moses is Musa. There is no baptism or sprinkling of infants. Upon converting to Islam by stating the testimony of faith, "There is no go except Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah" one takes a full bath or shower known in Arabic as 'ghusl' which is the same that is done by Muslims after sexual relations between man and wife or wet dream. Which is a ritual act of cleansing.
As far as I know when you do accept Islam you've to take a bath, as well before every prayer we make ablution .. I wouldn't call it baptism but certainly cleansing before any religious act is important and also symbolic of purity.
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MustafaMc
08-20-2013, 02:55 AM
Originally Posted by loveofgod
What do you mean epic fail? I have a Koran translated by Abdullah Yusuf Ali. And he also translates it as follows: (Our religion is) the Baptism of Allah: And who can baptize better than Allah? And it is He Whom we worship.

There are many other translations of this verse. Who can say whose translation is better or correct? How can you know?
Abdel Haleem: [Our life] takes its color from God and who gives a better color than God? It is Him we worship.

Gracious Qur'an - Ahmad Hammad: Say O believers: It is the hue of God alone that is upon our religion. And who is there better than God to endue the human soul with the true hue of His religion! Thus to Him alone we do solemnly devote all of our worship.

Majestic Qur'an: The coloring of Allah; and whose coloring is better than Allah's alone? He it is that we worship.

Saheeh International: And say ours is the religion of Allah. And who is better than Allah in [ordaining] religion? And we are worshipers of Him.

Pickthall: (We take our) colour from Allah, and who is better than Allah at colouring. We are His worshippers.

In the dictionary of the Qur'an: Sabagha: To dye, colour, baptize, dip, immerse, hue, assume the attribute, mode mature, code of law, religion ... According to the Arabic usage, sometimes when it is intended strongly to induce a person to do a certain thing the verb is omitted, as in 2:138 and only the object is mentioned. Therefore in the translation of that verse, one must add such verb as khudhu - assume, or adapt.

This indicates the word translated as "baptism" does not mean a ritual bath or immersion, but rather taking on a hue, coloring, code of law, or religion. The context of the verse does NOT indicate that Yusuf Ali was wise in choosing to use 'baptism' in this ayat due to the ceremonial connotation it conveys to Christians and the ambiguity in meaning it conveys to others.
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Signor
08-20-2013, 03:49 AM
This piece is interesting to understand Sibghah

"Our Sibghah is the Sibghah of Allah and which Sibghah can be better than Allah's? And we are His worshippers" (Surah Baqarah v. 138)

Have you seen shopkeepers dieing ladies scarves in various colors? The scarf containing original colors comes out with the color of the die. So what is the sibghah (color) of Allah? It is tawheed (Islamic monotheism)! The similitude of a non-Muslim entering Islam is like dieing his multicolored mind and heart with principles of tawheed.

Islamic theology is an integrated whole in which different parts interact with each other. One principle reinforces the other to give an holistic perspective of life. This reinforced version of Islamic philosophy provides a Mumin with the wisdom to understand different things from one perspective (Reality). When someone submits to Allah, one is bound to enter the deen completely. All fabric of his thought must be dyed with the Sibghah of Allah. No thread can be left untouched. He is not supposed to keep a multi-patched outlook to life. Islam should penetrate all aspects of his life; be it personal, family, community, national, international, economic, educational, etc. Influences from other philosophies which contradict reality has no place in his perspective.
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MustafaMc
08-20-2013, 11:07 AM
Originally Posted by Signor
When someone submits to Allah, one is bound to enter the deen completely. All fabric of his thought must be dyed with the Sibghah of Allah. No thread can be left untouched.
The meaning given by your quote is consistent with most translations of 2:138 into English. What is the source? Although I don't speak Arabic, it is also consistent with what I quoted from the dictionary.

The word baptize from a Christian perspective can also be seen to be consistent with this meaning in that some see the act of baptism as a transforming event with one being immersed under the water as a sinner which is symbolic of his dying to his worldly self and then coming up as a new person with his slate wiped clean to live a new life as a sanctified Christian. The term 'Born Again Christian' comes to mind. They often quote Acts 2:38, "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." I was a member of the Church of Christ for a few years and they use this verse to indicate that one's intention in being baptized should be for the remission of his sins and without that intention one's baptism is invalid.
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loveofgod
08-20-2013, 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
In the dictionary of the Qur'an: Sabagha: To dye, colour, baptize, dip, immerse, hue, assume the attribute, mode mature, code of law, religion ... According to the Arabic usage, sometimes when it is intended strongly to induce a person to do a certain thing the verb is omitted, as in 2:138 and only the object is mentioned. Therefore in the translation of that verse, one must add such verb as khudhu - assume, or adapt.
This is what I was looking for. I can better understand the meaning of baptism as used by the translators now. Baptism is an act that washes away a person's sins. It's an act of purification. When John the Baptist baptized people God washed away all their sins. Similarly when God baptizes people He washes away their sins and who can better wash away sins better than God? This is what I think it means.
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Signor
08-20-2013, 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
The meaning given by your quote is consistent with most translations of 2:138 into English. What is the source? Although I don't speak Arabic, it is also consistent with what I quoted from the dictionary.
I deliberately didn't quoted the source because its only from reflections from a Muslim Brother,you can find it here

Originally Posted by loveofgod
Similarly when God baptizes people He washes away their sins and who can better wash away sins better than God?
Islam is based on the concept that all humans are born sinless and they attain sins during their lives, and that all sins can be forgiven except giving worship to other gods but Allah or with Allah/God.

Just for the Interest of Br Mustafa

The root of the word "Sibghah" actually means "Colour, dye, or a colour which is adopted on to something" So when it says in the translation that Sibghah means Religion, it takes on the meaning of the 'religion that when we take it on, it literally changes us as taking on another colour would'. That when people are given or adopt the religion of Islam they are cloaked in that which Allah (Subahanna wa tallah) has given them so that they will appear different and reflect it on others. And just like dye, it won't come off-- When we accept Islam completely it won't come off. Islam becomes our identity and we cannot remove ourselves from it.
Alongside with this beautiful poem

The oceans dried up
Not one but two,
But the words of my Lord written were few,
Each drop of divine ink
Each letter, each word
Their unchartered depths few have explored
“Sibghtullah”
The Colors of Allah
Dye yourself in them and attain falah.
The hues of humility
The perfect tints of gratitude
The gait, the speech, the right attitude
In the style
Of the Nabi (saws) and the blessed few
They strive but they smile as if Jannah they view
Intense in their devotion
Their obedience glows
In the darkest of nights spent bowed low
Not like chameleons
They change their colors, or discard
When the going gets tough, or the opposition hard
Their deen dyed deep
Not washed away
By the changing tides of culture, or fashion’s sway
Awash in divine recitation
They persist and depend
On none
But the One
At peace in the knowledge
That blessed they are
To be drenched in
‘Sibghatullah’
The Colors of Allah
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MustafaMc
08-21-2013, 12:47 AM
Assalamu alaikum, Brother Signor, I am left absolutely speechless by the poem you quoted. Ma shaa Allah it is indeed beautiful!
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loveofgod
08-21-2013, 06:27 AM
Originally Posted by Signor
Islam is based on the concept that all humans are born sinless and they attain sins during their lives, and that all sins can be forgiven except giving worship to other gods but Allah or with Allah/God.
Yes but when human beings grow up they become sinners. Someone in this thread mentioned the washing away of sins in Islam when taking a bath. Makes me think that the concept of purification or baptism is also found in Islam.
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loveofgod
08-21-2013, 06:30 AM
Originally Posted by Signor
At peace in the knowledge
That blessed they are
To be drenched in
‘Sibghatullah’
The Colors of Allah
Drenched in Sibghatullah sounds similar to being immersed in water or getting wet. So the translators weren't wrong in using the words "baptism of God" to describe sibghatullah.
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glo
08-21-2013, 06:58 AM
Originally Posted by loveofgod
Drenched in Sibghatullah sounds similar to being immersed in water or getting wet. So the translators weren't wrong in using the words "baptism of God" to describe sibghatullah.
I think the reason the word 'baptism' may jar with Muslims in this context, is that it may be read as an approval of the Christian practice of baptising - when Islam is very clear on not imitating the actions and behaviours of non-Muslims and not falling into their false and sinful practices.

I understand what is meant by being cloaked or dyed or immersed or baptised in God's spirit. I guess it's a sense many believers in God have experienced.
But for Muslims it will be important to make clear that it is nothing to do with Christian practices!
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Signor
08-21-2013, 07:56 AM
Originally Posted by loveofgod
Yes but when human beings grow up they become sinners. Someone in this thread mentioned the washing away of sins in Islam when taking a bath. Makes me think that the concept of purification or baptism is also found in Islam.
Shahdah (for a non Muslim) For Purification Of Soul

Bath(If necessary) For Purification of Body.The water used has nothing to do with cleansing soul or baptism

According to Encyclopedia Britannica

baptism, a sacrament of admission to the Christian church. The forms and rituals of the various churches vary, but baptism almost invariably involves the use of water and the Trinitarian invocation, “I baptize you: In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.” The candidate may be wholly or partly immersed in water, the water may be poured over the head, or a few drops may be sprinkled or placed on the head.

Does the highlighted portion exists in the bath?Surely Not.Now don't mix all things together.
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MustafaMc
08-21-2013, 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by glo
I think the reason the word 'baptism' may jar with Muslims in this context, is that it may be read as an approval of the Christian practice of baptising - when Islam is very clear on not imitating the actions and behaviours of non-Muslims and not falling into their false and sinful practices.
You are welcome to your opinion even if it is wrong. However, there is absolutely no truth in your statement. I have made it clear that the practice of baptism for the remission of sins is not found in Islam. The ghusl that I mentioned after taking shahadah is the same as the ghusl every Muslim takes after intimate marital relations and before the next salah. Yes, it is a ritual but the intention is not the same as baptism in Christianity.
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glo
08-21-2013, 11:41 AM
^
That's what I was trying to say, Mustafa. :)
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MustafaMc
08-21-2013, 11:48 AM
Originally Posted by loveofgod
So the translators weren't wrong in using the words "baptism of God" to describe sibghatullah.
Yes, Yusuf Ali was entirely wrong in using this word as I have illustrated elsewhere. I have 10 translations of the Qur'an, including the 11th edition of Yusuf Ali, and not a single one of them uses the word 'baptism'. The footnote to this ayat in Yusuf Ali translation reads, "Sibghah:the root-meaning implies a dye or colour; apparently the Arab Christians mixed a dye or colour in the baptismal water, signifying that the baptized person got a new colour in life. [We do not believe that it is necessary to be baptized to be saved. Eds.]"
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Insaanah
08-21-2013, 12:16 PM
Originally Posted by loveofgod
Similarly when God baptizes people He washes away their sins and who can better wash away sins better than God? This is what I think it means.
Originally Posted by loveofgod
Makes me think that the concept of purification or baptism is also found in Islam.
Originally Posted by loveofgod
Drenched in Sibghatullah sounds similar to being immersed in water or getting wet. So the translators weren't wrong in using the words "baptism of God" to describe sibghatullah.
You are continuing to insist on your own incorrect assumption and interpretation of the verse despite what others in the thread have told you.

If you read the verse in it's context, from 2:135-2:140, it will become apparent that it is not saying that Muslims undergo baptism but quite the opposite. The verses talk about Jews or Christians, and how they were saying to Muslims that they should become one of them in order to become rightly guided. Allah tells and advises the Muslims to respond by saying, that we believe in ALL the prophets of God, and ALL the revelations given to them by God, we do not discriminate against any of them, or reject any one of them at all, and to Him we fully submit. He reminds the Jews and Christians, that we follow the same way as Abraham, and if you claim to be Abrahamic, then he was one by nature upright, submitting fully to God and not associating anyone in His Exclusive Divinity. It is in the midst of these verses that 2:138 comes.

S. A Maududi's commentary of verse 2:138 says:

It may also mean, "We took Allah's colour." Before the advent of Christianity, it was a custom among the Jews to give a bath to those who accepted Judaism. It meant to imply that all the sins of the baptised person were washed away and he had received a new colour of life. This same custom was later on adopted by the Christians and it was termed "Baptism", which is a ceremonial immersion in water or an application of water as an initiatory rite or sacrament of the Christian Church. It is applied not only to the new converts but also to all newly-born babies. The Qur'an says that there is nothing substantial in this ceremonial "colouring," since it is not necessary for salvation. For this purpose one should take colour from Allah by adopting His Way and submitting to His Law.
They felt for salvation or for coming closer to God and/or for other reasons, one had to undergo baptism, and Muslims did not undergo this. Allah tells the Muslims, that it is not any such ceremony, but submitting fully and wholeheartedly to Him, following the teachings He has sent for us, and worshipping Him alone without any associates In His Exclusive Divinity, that is important. Taking on the hue of God is not from any water or by being dipped in it, but from one's beliefs and practices. That is what makes one a believer, walking in the path of God. Muslims should strive hard to follow the religion of God as He intended for it to be followed, and as every messenger preached - the original only true message from God. Not any made-up or deviated practices, such a ascribing trinities or sons to God, or deifying or rejecting messengers.

It then goes on say to to those who claim that Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob (peace be upon them) were Jews or Christians:

"Are you more knowing or is Allah?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals a testimony he has from Allah? And Allah is not unaware of what you do. (2:140, part)

Baptism as practiced by Christians, is a concept by which one is received into the church and is normally done in the name of the persons of the trinity. Some say it washes away original sin and sin committed thus far, others say it is necessary for salvation. And some say it allows the person to become into a state whereby he can enter into a relationship with God, the relationship having been broken by Adam and Eve's eating from the tree.

With regards to washing away original sin (the person still having the fallen nature) and allowing the person to enter into a state whereby he can now have a relationship with God, or indeed for salvation:

In Islam, there is no concept of original sin, nor of God expecting perfection which cannot be achieved, nor of a broken relationship with God that requires reconciling, nor of remoteness from God, nor of ****ation requiring a saviour. No innocent person is made to suffer or die for other's sins. Newborn babies are born into a state of innocence and purity.

In Christianity, God did not forgive Adam (peace be upon him) for eating from the tree, and not only Adam but all subsequent generations have to bear a punishment from God, and fell out of grace with God, their relationship with God was severed, and they are born into a state of sin and remoteness from God, and death also arose from Adam and Eve's action. They believe that God's standards are so high and holy that we can never achieve them ourselves, thus to atone for our imperfection and inability to meet God's standards, and to reconcile people to God and repair the severed relationship, and to atone for people's sins, the sacrifice of a perfect innocent man (who also happens to be God) and his slow, bloody, and painful death comes into play.

With Allah forgiving Adam (peace be upon him) and honouring him and guiding him, as per Islam, none of the above is needed. In Islam, as Adam and Eve (peace be upon them) asked for forgiveness and were forgiven, so we too ask for Allah's forgiveness for our sins, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving. While guidance and the right way has been shown to us, we, as humans, have the freedom to choose, to err, and to repent sincerely, and should we do so, and return to the straight path, we will find Allah Kind & Forgiving. This forgiveness comes freely, just by Allah's will, when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent. Forgiveness does not require any type of sacrifice by God. Both Adam and Eve repented and were forgiven by their Loving, Merciful Lord; and indeed Adam was then chosen to be the first person to receive guidance from Allah, was honoured by Allah, and is counted among all the other Prophets of Islam. For all and any in the posterity of Adam, the door of returning to the right path is always open, prior to death. We give Christians and all non-Muslims an invitation to return to this right path, the path of all the Prophets, as Islam is not a new faith but is the same Ultimate Truth that God revealed to all prophets, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them). Thus Islam is not named after a specific person (like Christianity, Buddhism), nor after a certain race or place (like Judaism, Hinduism), but is named by God Himself, and the meaning loosely translates as 'submission to God', which is what every Prophet and their righteous followers did, from amongst all times, all races and all peoples. That in itself is one fraction of the evidence that it was the way of all the Prophets from the beginning.

We are required to struggle, and to make effort, and to show our commitment on our part, by submitting fully and wholeheartedly to His authority, will and guidance, believing and doing good deeds, and obeying God, and the teachings he sent His messengers with. Ultimately, salvation is through Allah's mercy. We strive with faith and deeds and obedience to God, do our best, and trust in His Promise, and His Justice, and hoping for His Mercy.

It is our testimony of faith, believed with firm conviction in the heart, and known with certainty to be true, and our wholehearted and full submission to the authority, will, and guidance of God alone without associates in His Divinity, that makes us believers.

It is the testimony of faith, its firm belief in the heart, and declaration by tongue, and acceptance of what that mandates for a Muslim, that brings a person into Islam. He/she is now a Muslim. Their slate is wiped clean.

Muslims should ideally always be in as much of a state of purity as possible. Ghusl is a full bath, so new Muslims will take a bath soon after their shahaadah (testimony of faith). This bath is to cleanse the body. As the five times daily prayers are the second pillar of Islam after the shahaadah, the new Muslim will need to take a bath in order to pray.

Thread closed.

Peace.
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