Is peace ever possible between the worst enemies?

[sister herb]

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/14/op...anted=all&_r=0

Bereaved


They are Palestinians, and they are Israelis. They have lost their sisters and brothers and children, lost them in terrorist attacks, clashes, suicide bombings and military service.

They understand that the only way to break down the barriers and come out of their darkness is by recognizing one another.

They are dreaming of reconciliation.

They found one another through groups like Combatants for Peace and the Parents Circle-Families Forum, which runs educational forums to work on reconciliation.

They say it is critical to learn the other side’s narrative, because the only hope for ending the bloody struggle is through empathy and reconciliation.

In sharing the pain of bereavement, many have bonded and work closely together. Reconciliation with the enemy has become the purpose of their lives in the name of their dead.

After more than 30 years of photographing war and funerals, I find hope in meeting the bereaved families and witnessing their reconciliation process. If they can do this, everybody else should.

I attended their meetings, reconciliation sessions and activities. They devote much of their time to lecturing both Israeli and Palestinian youth about the sanctity of life. By appearing together at high schools and in public venues, they are living proof that there is another way. There are many activities to nurture their friendships: tours, field trips, cultural events. But forgiving is not forgetting (some refuse to use “forgiving” in their vocabulary.)

Many of the parents talk about the difficult progression to reconcile and befriend the enemy, and their own commitment is tested over and over again when they face hostility from their own people, or their own family members.

Israelis and Palestinians Tell Their Personal Stories

Bushra Awad, a 48-year-old Palestinian from the West Bank village of Beit Ummar, lost her 17-year-old son, Mahmoud, during a protest against Israeli soldiers in 2008. He was a high school student. This is her story:

Each day or night the Israeli soldiers invade our village and it ends in a clash with our youth resisting the occupiers. That day there was so much shooting by the soldiers I could hear it in my kitchen. It was so intense, from all directions, I suddenly felt that sharp pain in my heart. “Hurry, go find Mahmoud,” I begged my husband. “I feel something happened to our son,” I said, and he ran out.

I heard screams of my neighbors that my son was shot and I fell on the ground with that terrible pain in my heart. I knew I lost my child at that moment.

Later, days after Mahmoud was buried, my husband, Khaled, told me how he ran down the street toward the ambulances, arriving at the same time as the boys, running with our bleeding son, shot by Israeli soldiers. Mahmoud succumbed to his wounds on the way to the hospital in Hebron. My husband watched him dying.

Those days were days of grief, anger and vengeance. I wanted so much to go out and take revenge for my son. I wanted to go out and kill any Israeli. I’m a mother, I did not know I possessed such feelings of wanting to take somebody’s life. I was so full of pain and hate.

And in those mourning days, while women of the village were paying their condolences and respect, there was a lot of talk of what the mothers could possibly do to protect their children’s lives. So many young men of Beit Ummar have paid with their lives for resisting the occupation, and we, the grieving mothers, above all. None had an answer.

Our family was devastated after Mahmoud’s death. I knew I had to do something, anything, that would save my other children from a similar fate. But how? Then a friend, a woman who lost her family member in same circumstances, invited me to a meeting in her home with other bereaved. She told me there would be Israeli mothers present as well. I would not hear any of that; she was inviting me to meet my enemies! Those who caused us such great pain.

For two years, she kept inviting me, telling me it was important for our children, it was important to save more lives. I decided to go but I would not look at the Israelis or shake their hands, I would just listen. There I met an Israeli mother. She showed me a picture of her dead son, I showed her a picture of my son Mahmoud. We both cried for our loss. Ever since that meeting, I’m part of the circle of bereaved mothers. We share a pain, and we share a hope to end the bloody cycle and maybe one day our leaders will negotiate peace.

Meanwhile, we live such a fragile existence. Israeli soldiers continue to raid our village, and clashes ensue. My other son was injured and later imprisoned. I pray that one day peace will come and we can raise our sons without constant fear for their lives.

All mothers are the same.

Ben Kfir, a 65-year-old Israeli from Ashkelon, Israel, lost his daughter, Yael, 22, in a Palestinian suicide bombing at a bus station in 2003. She was an Israeli soldier. This is his story:

When the army officers arrived I knew, because Yael always called after every suicide bombing. She did not call that day, and an hour after the bombing I knew she never would.

I could not stop crying for days, and I was so full of anger that I could explode.

I was angry at the Palestinians for killing my child. I was angry at the army for not preventing the attack. I was angry at the leaders for not reaching a deal.

And I wanted revenge.

I started planning it into particulars. I was lying in bed for days planning my revenge. I thought it was either revenge or I die; there was no meaning to my life any longer.

I was fantasizing how I would walk over to the construction site near my house where Palestinians were working and shoot them.

I was planning it in such detail that I even knew what clothes I would wear to do the killings. The more I planned, the more I realized that, while achieving my revenge, my acts would bring more death to my people.

The families of the dead workers would surely seek revenge on Israelis, the army would retaliate in Gaza, and the circle of death would never end.

Desperation overcame me because I also realized I was only thinking of myself and my immense pain. I thought there was no other way, that I should just die.

In those awful days I received a pile of condolence letters which I hardly looked at, I was so immersed in my grief, anger and quest for vengeance. But I read this one, from a woman named Hagit, a bereaved mother.

I called her and we cried a lot. She invited me to a gathering of bereaved Israelis and Palestinians.

I hung the phone up on her.

But then, I just went. I did not know why, I went. I sat and listened to some 60 people, Israelis and Palestinians, and I was not alone in my grief any longer.

Those wonderful people gave me a reason to go on living. I realized that the Palestinian stories and my story are no different. Our tears taste the same; our blood is the same color. I feel more comfortable with a bereaved Palestinian then with a regular Israeli citizen. We know what loss is, the shadow of our dead following us every day, every moment of our lives. But I’m not a walking dead any longer.

I live for a cause, and this is what I am saying in every lecture. Whether Israelis or Palestinians, revenge is not an answer. It will only bring more and more death. It is not easy to open up your wounds and expose yourself in front of so many people every day, but I believe today that only through mass reconciliation can we make peace one day.

Simple people like me are the ones who can bring peace. The leaders only sign it.


Rina Castelnuovo, an Israeli photographer, has been documenting the conflict between Palestinians and Israelis for more than 30 years, 17 of them as a contract photographer for The New York Times based in Jerusalem.

[sister herb]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli...rgan_donations

One more step for the peace.

:statisfie

[glo]

If we don't believe that peace is possible, then what would we do? All that would be left would be despair and hopelessness.

Believing in the possibility of a better and more peaceful world is what keeps me going and gives me the energy and courage to get up again every time I hear, see or read something which wants to steal that hope from me.

Every faith teaches the importance of living in peace and harmony with each other and showing love and care to those in need.
If we don't do that, we go against our own religious teachings. It is Satan who tells us otherwise!

[glo]

Here is a group I am a member of. (I have yet to make it to one of their meetings or events)
http://www.palestinecampaign.org/

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[loveofgod]

I don't think that peace is possible. Not in today's world.

[sister herb]

I don't think that peace is possible. Not in today's world.

It is if you want enough - and work for it too.

Otherwise... we all live in hate and darkness without any hope.

[WarriorforMarie]

Peace is certainly possible. I think the main obstacles are two things. One, the actions of Israel for the past decades are going to make it hard for the Palestinians to believe any peace offer is sincere. The second is probably the main systemic problem which is Israel's electoral system. They run a pretty pure proportional representation system which causes a total fragmentation of the party system. As a result no single party is able to make a government on its own and often has to search around for coalition partners. This makes being able to move ahead on anything difficult as every major decision is a collective action problem.

[Pygoscelis]

Between those two groups I do not believe peace is possible. I do not believe that enough of each side of that conflict want peace. There is too much blind dogmatic hatred, fueled by past injustice, current injustice, and religious dogmatism to ever break through. Saddest part is that there are people on both sides who ARE amenable to peace and even fellowship, but there are too many dogmatists. You will not get rid of Israelis who see all of "Israel" as the holy land promissed to them by God and build settlements while complaining about Palestinians. You will not get rid of the Palestinians who see all of "Palestine" as their land and who will not accept the existence of the state of Israel and indiscriminately kill Israelis however they can. I don't see much room for compromise.

[sister herb]

At the year 2004 Hamas declared it may accept peace treatment with zionists. Few months from that zionists killed main leaders of Hamas as "terrorists".

Wanting peace may make you terrorist in this world as well.

^o)

Interesting world we live.

[Nur Student]

No matter how much we want and work for peace; as long as Israel doesn't give up the idea of getting all over the "promised land" (and it seems that they will never do), there will never be peace unless all the Palestinians are extinguished or wiped out of their lands.

By the way, it is not fair to describe the unequal situation there as if both sides suffer a lot. When there is one Israeli casualty against a hundred Palestinian casualties, we can't say it is a bilateral suffering. Nor can we say that it is a war or enmity; but it is a brutal oppression vs being oppressed. (Please don't misunderstand me. I don't mean that I don't feel any pity for those innocent Israeli casualties. Nor do I support everything that Hamas do. But the Israeli state is currently a terrorist state.)

Have you ever watched the documentary 'Occupation 101'? If not, please watch this unique video on YouTube to understand how the facts are manipulated.

[sister herb]

This one casuality is too much to family of the victim.

I am happy that in the world is enough muslims, christians, jews, atheists, agnostics, and what ever else whose know that peace is possible.

:D

[sister herb]

Have you ever watched the documentary 'Occupation 101'? If not, please watch this unique video on YouTube to understand how the facts are manipulated.

I have watched that too. And almost every documents made about this matter.

And lived my life with this issue.

:D I could even make document film about my life some day. That would be interesting project.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

There is too much blind dogmatic hatred,

Israel is mostly a secular country now, I think the struggle is more about past injustice on both sides, but mostly to do with power and money. If God and religion were an issue; then these verses would have a meaning.

Ezekiel 47
21 “You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.

Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Exodus 12:49
The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

Deuteronomy 27
19 “Cursed is anyone who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow.”


Leviticus 25
23 “‘The land must not be sold permanently, because the land is mine and you reside in my land as foreigners and strangers. 24 Throughout the land that you hold as a possession, you must provide for the redemption of the land.
Then all the people shall say, “Amen!”

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

[WarriorforMarie]

Israel is mostly a secular country now, I think the struggle is more about past injustice on both sides, but mostly to do with power and money. If God and religion were an issue; then these verses would have a meaning.

The degree of religiousity may not necessarily correlate to amenability towards peace. There seem to be three main strands in Jewish politics: Liberal, Conservative, and Orthodox. These roughly correspond to what type of Judaism one practices. The Conservative strand are the most in support of annexing Palestinian lands. The Liberals are agreeable to some sort of peace deal and theoretically Orthodox may be as well. They at first resisted (and many still refuse) to recognize the Israeli state as they believe that the Jews were only suppose to return at a time that corresponded with religious prophecy. They only problem is that this is really the only thin that Liberals and Orthodox could potentially agree on so that chances of such a coalition government are very slim.

[loveofgod]

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Justice for all people is not possible when the power is in the hands of the rich.

[sister herb]

^^ It is very likely that people can´t never find kind of conditions in any place or country, where 100% of the people would be absolutely equal and get 100% justice, but we just have to try the find the best solutions also to the most difficult conflicts...

[loveofgod]

^^ It is very likely that people can´t never find kind of conditions in any place or country, where 100% of the people would be absolutely equal and get 100% justice, but we just have to try the find the best solutions also to the most difficult conflicts...

All I can say is that it looks like an impossible situation. It is not in man's hand. Only God can bring peace in this world now.

[glo]

Only God can bring peace in this world now.

Then it definitely isn't an impossible situation!
With God all things are possible! :statisfie

[Pygoscelis]

Where religion is the cause can it also be the solution? I doubt it.

[sister herb]

^^ Religion is not cause of problems of that area at all. People of course can blame religion(s) about this and that problems they have caused by they own political acts, when the reason is absolutely something else.

[sister herb]

If problem would be only by religion(s), then how this is possible (and have been for centuries)?

http://www.ibtimes.com/who-guards-mo...uslims-1161517

Who Guards The Most Sacred Site In Christendom? Two Muslims

JERUSALEM -- Every Christian knows the holiest places in Christendom are in Jerusalem. The holiest of all, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, was erected in 325, over the site where it is believed Jesus was crucified, buried and rose from the dead.

Yet, few know that it is a Muslim who opens and closes the only door to this holiest of Christian sites.

In fact, it's two Muslims: one man from the Joudeh family and another man from the Nuseibeh family, two Jerusalem Palestinian clans who have been the custodians of the entrance to the Holy Sepulchre since the 12th century.

Every morning, at 4:30, Adeeb Joudeh travels from his apartment outside the walls of the Old City to bring the cast-iron key to the church, just as his father and his forebears did before him.

Once there, he entrusts the key -- looking like a 12-inch (30-centimeter) long iron wedge -- to Wajeeh Nuseibeh, who knocks at the gate to call the priests and the pilgrims who spend the night praying inside. From inside the church, a wooden ladder is passed through a porthole to help him unlock the upper part of the enormous door.

Then, he unlocks the lower one before handing the precious key back to Joudeh. The ritual is reversed every evening at 7:30, after hundreds of tourists and pilgrims have left the church.

During holidays, such as Holy Week, which culminates Sunday with the Christian Easter, the elaborate opening and closing ceremonies take place several times a day.

Why the elaborate ritual? As often happens in Jerusalem, a city holy to several peoples and religions, there are different versions to explain why two Muslim families hold the key to the holiest site in Christendom.

“After the Muslim conquest in 637, the Caliph Omar guaranteed the Archbishop Sophronius that the Christian places of worship would be protected and so entrusted the custodianship to the Nuseibehs, a family who originated in Medina and had had relations with the Prophet Muhammad,” said Nuseibeh, a retired 63-year old electrician, while waiting in a nearby cafe to carry out his duties at the Holy Sepulchre.

“It happened again in 1187, after Saladin ended the Crusader Kingdom of Jerusalem. He chose our family again to look after the peace between the different Eastern and Western Christian confessions, which were at odds over control of the Sepulchre," he said with a gentle smile, sitting next to his son, Obadah.

To this day, coexistence among the several Christian churches sharing the Holy Sepulchre is a delicate one. Catholic, Greek, Armenian, Coptic, Syriac, and Ethiopian Orthodox monks have resorted to fists more than once to defend their respective denomination’s rights and privileges in the church, as defined in an decree by the Ottoman Empire, known as the Status Quo of 1853.

Such impious brawls between clergy proved Saladin’s prescience 1,000 years ago, when the sultan sealed the second front gate of the church and entrusted control of the remaining entrance to neutral custodians.

The Nuseibehs claim that the Joudehs entered this story only in the 16th century, after the Ottoman Turks gained control of Palestine and decided to charge a second family with the responsibility of guarding the key.

“Yes, we share the responsibility with the Joudehs, and sometimes we argue, as happens in a family,” Nuseibeh said.

Each Maundy Thursday since the end of the 19th century, the two Muslim families give the key to the Holy Sepulchre to the local Franciscan friars, for as long as it takes to walk to the church in a procession and to open the door after the morning liturgies. When those are completed, the friars return the key to the families.

This ceremony, which confirms in practice the validity of the Muslim families’ custodianship, is repeated with the Greek and Armenian communities, on Orthodox Good Friday and Holy Saturday, respectively.

“Right now, I have in my hands the keys to Christendom’s heart. This is a very important moment for us,” said the Rev. Artemio Vitores, the Spanish Franciscan who is the vicar Custodian of the Holy Land, during the Maundy Thursday procession.

“For centuries, Christian pilgrims were denied entry to the church, or had to pay huge sums to pray on the Sepulchre,” he said, all while holding the key.

At the head of the procession, Vitores was flanked on one side by Wajeeh Nusseibeh, his son Obadah and two cousins, all of whom were equally compensated by the friars for their services with the symbolic sum of $60.

On Vitores’ other side were Adeeb Joudeh, wearing an impeccable dark gray suit, and his 19-year-old son Jawad.

For about 20 minutes, Joudeh ceded control of the only existing key to the Holy Sepulchre. While there is another key, it is broken and no longer used. The functioning key is normally kept in a small office attached to the church and is guarded by an employee of the Joudeh family.

“This key has seen Saladin and every generation of my family since 1187. To me, it’s an honor to be in charge of the holiest of Christian places," Joudeh said, while walking the cobblestoned alley leading to the Holy Sepulchre.

He insisted on showing on his smartphone what he claimed are 165 official decrees confirming the Joudeh family’s role as custodian of the church over the centuries.

“My ancestor who was given the keys was a sheik, a highly respected person, who was not supposed to perform physical labor, such as climbing the ladder to open the gate,” Joudeh explained. “That’s why the Nuseibehs were called in to perform this duty. Unfortunately, they feel still ashamed of being just the doorkeepers.”

At the end of the procession, the key was welcomed by cheerful pilgrims waiting in front of the church.

For a few minutes, everybody stared at the solemn opening of the gate before rushing in.

Moments later, Adeeb Joudeh walked home with his son, as did Wajeeh Nuseibeh. They will come back here, time and again, at the gate of the Holy Sepulchre: two Muslims, coming in peace to bear the key to the heart of Christianity.

[Abz2000]

Of course peace is possible, peace was even possible with Khalid ibn waleed and umar ibn khattab and Abu Sufyaan ibn umayyah and ikrimah ibn abu jahl. they repented of their crimes and gained peace from submission to Allah, so yes it is possible, Allah tells us so in the Quran:

۞ عَسَى اللَّهُ أَن يَجعَلَ بَينَكُم وَبَينَ الَّذينَ عادَيتُم مِنهُم مَوَدَّةً ۚ وَاللَّهُ قَديرٌ ۚ وَاللَّهُ غَفورٌ رَحيمٌ

It may be that Allah will grant love (and friendship) between you and those whom ye (now) hold as enemies. For Allah has power (over all things); And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

لا يَنهىٰكُمُ اللَّهُ عَنِ الَّذينَ لَم يُقٰتِلوكُم فِى الدّينِ وَلَم يُخرِجوكُم مِن دِيٰرِكُم أَن تَبَرّوهُم وَتُقسِطوا إِلَيهِم ۚ إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ المُقسِطينَ

Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.

إِنَّما يَنهىٰكُمُ اللَّهُ عَنِ الَّذينَ قٰتَلوكُم فِى الدّينِ وَأَخرَجوكُم مِن دِيٰرِكُم وَظٰهَروا عَلىٰ إِخراجِكُم أَن تَوَلَّوهُم ۚ وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُم فَأُولٰئِكَ هُمُ الظّٰلِمونَ

Allah only forbids you, with regard to those who fight you for (your) Faith, and drive you out of your homes, and support (others) in driving you out, from turning to them (for friendship and protection). It is such as turn to them (in these circumstances), that do wrong.
Quran 60:7-9

when one submits to God they achieve a peace agreement from God, that is the meaning of Islam. who are we to fight them then? They are our brothers and sisters in faith.

[Jedi_Mindset]

problem is, israel isnt even bothering about peace, it wants to take ground from the euphrates to the nile river until then they want to keep the arabs in destruction and eliminate any threat which stands in their way to do so.

Harb in this case is neccesary. If not for the palestinians then israel would've already took over whole of the holy land.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you loveofgod;

Justice for all people is not possible when the power is in the hands of the rich

Might be true on Earth, but we pray to a higher power than the rich people on this Earth, we pray and we do what we can to make a difference.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

[sister herb]

problem is, israel isnt even bothering about peace, it wants to take ground from the euphrates to the nile river until then they want to keep the arabs in destruction and eliminate any threat which stands in their way to do so.

Harb in this case is neccesary. If not for the palestinians then israel would've already took over whole of the holy land.

Salam alaykum

This is one theory (The Great Israel - from the Nile to the Euphrat River). Zionists have promoted idea of empty land a long time and also that Palestinians are Jordanians and they should remove to there... I have read several documents how some zionists have manipulated some archaeological diggings to prove there were Jews before this and that. Even Israeli archaeologists have told they are fake.

Problem is zionism. It is our time nazism.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you sister herb;

Yet, few know that it is a Muslim who opens and closes the only door to this holiest of Christian sites.

Maybe a Hindu family could provide a similar solution for the Dome of the Rock

In 2009 I had the privilege to go to Jerusalem, and stand by the Wailing Wall or Western Wall, it is part of a huge structure called the Temple Mount, which is a sacred place to the Jews Christians and Muslims. Abraham was said to have offered his son as a sacrifice in the region of Mount Moriah. It is also were Solomon was commanded to build the Temple on Mount Moriah to house the Ark of the Covenant, (the Ten Commandments) it is where Jesus worshiped. The Temple was destroyed and rebuilt, then destroyed again and the Islamic Dome of the Rock is built were Solomon’s Temple once stood. The Dome is said to be the place where the prophet pbuh, ascended up to heaven to meet all the other prophets, on this same site, associated with Abraham, Moses, Solomon, and Jesus.

When you look above the Wailing Wall, you see the golden dome of ‘The Dome of the Rock Mosque, and the Al Aqsa sacred to Islam. You queue up to go up to the mosque from the Jewish side, there is a sign that says – God is always present here. By this sign are Israeli Police with guns, their riot shields are stacked against the wall ready for use.

It seems that God has brought all three religions together on one huge monument and in so many ways, it seems to be a place to search for God rather than religion.

God could have made our lives much easier if he had placed our three religions a hundred miles apart, but it seems that God has some greater purpose by bringing all three religions together in one place.

Today there is tension in Jerusalem, most of the Christian holy places are within the walls of the Muslim Community, and this is surrounded by the Jews.

But why has God brought all these three religions together in so many ways, we are obviously so different?

The bottom line should be that all land belongs to God, we are all but temporary custodians, somehow we should seek to share all things as they were given to us by God and they belong to God.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of One God

Eric

[loveofgod]

Might be true on Earth, but we pray to a higher power than the rich people on this Earth, we pray and we do what we can to make a difference.

What kind of difference? What sort of world do you visualize? Different religions have always been at war with one another. History is proof of that. It's nice to believe that peace is possible. But it doesn't look like a realistic scenario that can actually transpire to me. I don't believe things are going to get better. Only worse. There is no doubt that with the passing of time man is getting greedier, more selfish and hungry for power.

[Pygoscelis]

It is one of the most troubling things about monotheism, when extremists start saying that their God is the only God and their way is the only way. Peace isn't easy between two such groups.

[sister herb]

^^ You are right - the extremists never make peace with anyone. People with some sense make.

Are they muslims, christians, jews or atheists no make any difference. They are people whose say: enough is enough.

[greenhill]

It seems that God has brought all three religions together on one huge monument and in so many ways, it seems to be a place to search for God rather than religion.

. . . .

Today there is tension in Jerusalem, most of the Christian holy places are within the walls of the Muslim Community, and this is surrounded by the Jews.

But why has God brought all these three religions together in so many ways, we are obviously so different?

There is a belief in the muslim community why during the night of the ascendency by prophet Muhammad (saw) the historical Qiblah was changed from Jerusalem to Mecca. Imagine the potential conflict (for the lack of a better word) that would happen if the muslims too share this as their only 'holy/sacred' place.

Historically though, the religions were the same religion, all three (Jewish, Christianity and Islam) hence they shared the same prophets, doing their bidding for their Lord, having these holy sites. Somehow, somewhere, man made some changes to the doctrines which ended up making all three different.

[observer]

Religions generally hate the idea, but this is why secularism, to me, is the way forward. Choose your religion and practice it as you will with laws to ensure that everyone is treated the same. Will it be perfect for you or me? No, probably not. Is there a better idea? I don't think so. In a multicultural world, it seems incomprehensible that any one religion state could work.

[جوري]

Secularism is the mother of all hatred, 5000 dead in egypt alone over a couple of days by secularists and for Egypt not to be Islamic under any light and they've already brought a failed movie actress and a druggie to amend the constitution to remove anything to do with Islam from it. It is the way backwards not forward! Do these people turn on the news and see what is going on in the name of their secular religion or the fact that it isn't done for God but debauchery and every lewd allowance exempts them from any wrong doing? What an interesting take on things. Countries fully raped since the Sykes Picot agreement and even before that to do away with religion and nap any good for the sake of a few undeserving and to hell with everyone else!
shame on you the lies you spew!

[faithandpeace]

As I've said repeatedly before here on IB forums, there is no separation of church and state in Islam. We Muslims love Sharia and want Sharia. Why is this so hard?

[sister herb]

^^ I can see the state of peace where everyone can follow they own religions freely, where state respects peoples own choices and its name might be Palestine. State and any political doctrine has to be then separated: you can be there equal in the society, just same if you are sunni, shia, jew, christian, bahai, atheist, agnostic, buddhist or even wicca.

:statisfie

That is my dream.

[faithandpeace]

Sister herb, are you opposed to Sharia governance?

[sister herb]

No I am not but also I am for freedom. Palestine now is not islamic country at all - there live several religions as there have always lived. Should I dream that every others (non-muslims) there have to accept rules of my religion? What if to think to give freedom to everyone believe and live like they feel is right and then try to live in peace with your neigborg? Would that too hard?

:statisfie

[observer]

As I've said repeatedly before here on IB forums, there is no separation of church and state in Islam. We Muslims love Sharia and want Sharia. Why is this so hard?

And I'd like a world with no religion at all. But what I want would be unfair to those who want to practise their religion. So some sort of compromise is needed. Surely you can recognise that to force Islamic rule on non-muslims would be equally unfair?

[faithandpeace]

Doesn't a Sharia system permit freedom of religion? Jews and Christians are free to practice their faiths while living in a Sharia governance if I am correct. So if you are for peace and religious freedom, why not speak of supporting the implementation of Sharia rather than vague ideas of "freedom" and "equality?" I am not a scholar and very far from it so anyone who thinks I am off track here, please examine what our sources have to say on these issues--the Qur'an and Sunnah. That goes for you too Sister Herb.

[sister herb]

Surely you can recognise that to force Islamic rule on non-muslims would be equally unfair?

I think this is said also in the Quran (Surat Al-Baqarah (The Cow) - سورة البقرة

2:256 Sahih International
There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing.).

Sorry I am not scholar and this verse might means also something else.

Personally I see it very un-islamic try to force non-muslims to follow rules of Islam if they don´t want. They, like everyone else, must have right to follow other paths if they want.

[sister herb]

Doesn't a Sharia system permit freedom of religion? Jews and Christians are free to practice their faiths while living in a Sharia governance if I am correct. So if you are for peace and religious freedom, why not speak of supporting the implementation of Sharia rather than vague ideas of "freedom" and "equality?" I am not a scholar and very far from it so anyone who thinks I am off track here, please examine what our sources have to say on these issues--the Qur'an and Sunnah. That goes for you too Sister Herb.

Salam alaykum

And what about followers of other religions in Palestine whose aren´t muslims, jews or christians? Should atheists or buddhists or wiccas or bahais follow it too?

[observer]

Doesn't a Sharia system permit freedom of religion? Jews and Christians are free to practice their faiths while living in a Sharia governance if I am correct. So if you are for peace and religious freedom, why not speak of supporting the implementation of Sharia rather than vague ideas of "freedom" and "equality?" I am not a scholar and very far from it so anyone who thinks I am off track here, please examine what our sources have to say on these issues--the Qur'an and Sunnah. That goes for you too Sister Herb.

What would my rights as an atheist be under a sharia system? Why should I live under rules implemented by a god in which I don't believe? A secular democracy is never going to be perfect, but it allows the maximum freedom to the maximum number of people

[faithandpeace]

Like I said I am not a scholar. Hopefully an educated Muslim well-read in Qur'an and Hadith can clarify these concerns of yours. I am also curious how non-Muslims who are not Ahl Al-Kitaab (people of the book) such as pagans and atheists would fit into a Sharia system. I am not aware of Sharia requiring non-Muslims to engage in Islamic duties such as Salat (prayer) and Sawm (fasting during Ramadaan). You might just have to find something to do for 15 minutes while others are praying and might have to eat at home during Ramadaan as restaurants would be closed (Muslim-owned ones anyway). As to moral/ethical standards of Sharia such as don't kill, steal, etc. these are universal human values. I think your fears are unfounded. Then again, insha'Allah an educated Muslim will clarify this matter.

[sister herb]

I afraid that finding peace goes quite difficult if we start to looking for preconditions before we even have any peace.

Have you any visited in Jordan? When I the first time visited there I wasn´t Muslim but the Christian. It was time of Ramadan over 20 years ago. There were different laws to muslims and to christians for family courts and seemed that also in society. During Ramadan I was free to eat in restaurant and drink wine while muslim didn´t do it.

None came to tell me that it is HARAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM! because they saw I am not muslim.

I felt that kind of society quite equal... even to the People of the Book (Christians, Jews and Muslims).

[جوري]

And I'd like a world with no religion at all. But what I want would be unfair to those who want to practise their religion. So some sort of compromise is needed. Surely you can recognise that to force Islamic rule on non-muslims would be equally unfair?

Islam isn't forced on anyone. Secularism is forced on us- so how is that a compromise?

best,

[AabiruSabeel]

This is off topic, but since it has cropped up, it will need some clarifications...

In 2009 I had the privilege to go to Jerusalem, and stand by the Wailing Wall or Western Wall, it is part of a huge structure called the Temple Mount, which is a sacred place to the Jews Christians and Muslims. Abraham was said to have offered his son as a sacrifice in the region of Mount Moriah. ...

Ibrahim :as: (Abraham) was asked to offer his son Isma'eel :as: as a sacrifice in Makkah, in the valley of Mina. While he was about to sacrifice him, Allah :swt: replaced him with a lamb and when Ibrahim :as: opened his eyes, he saw a sacrificed lamb laying in front of him instead of his son. Muslims are required to follow the practice of sacrifice every year on 'Eid Al-Adhha, 10th of Zil Hijjah (the last month of Islamic calendar) in remembrance of the sacrifice of Ibrahim :as:.

Allah :swt: says in Surah As-Saaffaat:

37:83 And indeed, among his kind was Abraham,
37:84 When he came to his Lord with a sound heart
37:85 [And] when he said to his father and his people, "What do you worship?
37:86 Is it falsehood [as] gods other than Allah you desire?
37:87 Then what is your thought about the Lord of the worlds?"
37:88 And he cast a look at the stars
37:89 And said, "Indeed, I am [about to be] ill."
37:90 So they turned away from him, departing.
37:91 Then he turned to their gods and said, "Do you not eat?
37:92 What is [wrong] with you that you do not speak?"
37:93 And he turned upon them a blow with [his] right hand.
37:94 Then the people came toward him, hastening.
37:95 He said, "Do you worship that which you [yourselves] carve,
37:96 While Allah created you and that which you do?"
37:97 They said, "Construct for him a furnace and throw him into the burning fire."
37:98 And they intended for him a plan, but We made them the most debased.
37:99 And [then] he said, "Indeed, I will go to [where I am ordered by] my Lord; He will guide me.
37:100 My Lord, grant me [a child] from among the righteous."
37:101 So We gave him good tidings of a forbearing boy.
37:102 And when he reached with him [the age of] exertion, he said, "O my son, indeed I have seen in a dream that I [must] sacrifice you, so see what you think." He said, "O my father, do as you are commanded. You will find me, if Allah wills, of the steadfast."
37:103 And when they had both submitted and he put him down upon his forehead,
37:104 We called to him, "O Abraham,
37:105 You have fulfilled the vision." Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
37:106 Indeed, this was the clear trial.
37:107 And We ransomed him with a great sacrifice,
37:108 And We left for him [favorable mention] among later generations:
37:109 "Peace upon Abraham."
37:110 Indeed, We thus reward the doers of good.
37:111 Indeed, he was of Our believing servants.
37:112 And We gave him good tidings of Isaac, a prophet from among the righteous.
37:113 And We blessed him and Isaac. But among their descendants is the doer of good and the clearly unjust to himself.


Please go through some of the posts in this thread again for further clarification: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1102495

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^^ I can see the state of peace where everyone can follow they own religions freely, where state respects peoples own choices and its name might be Palestine. State and any political doctrine has to be then separated: you can be there equal in the society, just same if you are sunni, shia, jew, christian, bahai, atheist, agnostic, buddhist or even wicca.

:statisfie

That is my dream.

No I am not but also I am for freedom. Palestine now is not islamic country at all - there live several religions as there have always lived. Should I dream that every others (non-muslims) there have to accept rules of my religion? What if to think to give freedom to everyone believe and live like they feel is right and then try to live in peace with your neigborg? Would that too hard?

:statisfie

And I'd like a world with no religion at all. But what I want would be unfair to those who want to practise their religion. So some sort of compromise is needed. Surely you can recognise that to force Islamic rule on non-muslims would be equally unfair?

... Personally I see it very un-islamic try to force non-muslims to follow rules of Islam if they don´t want. They, like everyone else, must have right to follow other paths if they want.

And what about followers of other religions in Palestine whose aren´t muslims, jews or christians? Should atheists or buddhists or wiccas or bahais follow it too?

What would my rights as an atheist be under a sharia system? Why should I live under rules implemented by a god in which I don't believe? A secular democracy is never going to be perfect, but it allows the maximum freedom to the maximum number of people

It seems like you are unaware of what Sharia system actually is. Sharia law is only applicable to Muslims. In a Sharia system, Non-Muslims are free to practice their own religion and they are not forced to embrace Islam. It provides justice for all the people, be them Muslim or non-Muslim.

Allah :swt: says:


5:42 [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, devourers of [what is] unlawful. So if they come to you, [O Muhammad], judge between them or turn away from them. And if you turn away from them - never will they harm you at all. And if you judge, judge between them with justice. Indeed, Allah loves those who act justly.
5:43 But how is it that they come to you for judgement while they have the Torah, in which is the judgement of Allah? Then they turn away, [even] after that; but those are not [in fact] believers.
5:44 Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers.
5:45 And We ordained for them therein a life for a life, an eye for an eye, a nose for a nose, an ear for an ear, a tooth for a tooth, and for wounds is legal retribution. But whoever gives [up his right as] charity, it is an expiation for him. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the wrongdoers.
5:46 And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous.
5:47 And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.
5:48 And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.
5:49 And judge, [O Muhammad], between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations and beware of them, lest they tempt you away from some of what Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away - then know that Allah only intends to afflict them with some of their [own] sins. And indeed, many among the people are defiantly disobedient.
5:50 Then is it the judgement of [the time of] ignorance they desire? But who is better than Allah in judgement for a people who are certain [in faith].


All these verses clearly ask the Prophet :saws: and the Muslims to judge the people according to their own scriptures.

Please read the following passage about Religious Tolerance in Islam:

A Unique Tolerance

There are degrees to religious tolerance. The lowest degree is that of allowing one's opponent to enjoy the freedom of his faith. Doubtless in such a case, the individuals are allowed to enjoy freedom of faith, but he might not be able to exercise his religious obligations or to abstain from prohibitions according to his faith.

A moderate degree of tolerance is to allow an individual to believe in a faith of his choice. In this case, he is neither compelled to discard his religious obligations nor is he forced to act contrary to his faith. For instance, a Jew believes that working on Saturdays is prohibited in his faith. Forcing him to work on that day is, therefore, not tolerance. Likewise a Christian, who goes to church on Sundays as part of his faith, should not be constrained from attending it.

The highest degree of tolerance is allowing people of other faiths to follow their way, even though some of their practices might conflict with the religion of the majority. It was this degree of tolerance that the Muslims adopted toward their non-Muslim citizens.

Muslims tolerated the religious practices of their minorities by not prohibiting even those practices, which were contrary to the state ideology. Such prohibitions, if Muslims had imposed them on non-Muslims, would not have been considered as fanaticism, for that which is considered lawful in a religion is not necessarily an imposed obligation.

For example, although a Magian may marry his mother or sister, he may also marry any other woman without this being frowned upon; or a Christian, who is permitted to eat pork, may also eat beef or lamb or poultry, just as he may abstain from drinking wine, even though the Gospels permit the consumption of wine. Consequently, had Islam ordered the non-Muslims to abstain from marriage with close relatives, which is prohibited by the shari'ah, or to abstain from wine or pork for the sake of their Muslim brothers, this would not have caused them any religious conflicts, since these practices are not obligatory for them.

Nevertheless, Islam did not make any such demands, nor did it ever intend to take non-Muslims to task on matters lawful in their religion but unlawful in Islam. On the contrary, Islam enjoins upon Muslims to allow non-Muslims to observe any practice, which they believe to be lawful in their religion.



The Muslim Tolerance

There is another aspect of this matter which cannot be found in the edicts of the law, nor can it be enforced by the courts or the government: this is the so-called "spirit of tolerance" which underlies upright attitudes, benevolent dealings, respect for one's neighbors, and all the sincere sentiments of piety, compassion, and courtesy. Such attitude is required in everyday life and cannot be obtained through constitutional legislation or the courts' jurisdiction. The spirit of tolerance is exclusively practiced in Islamic society. It appears in several verses of the Qur'an, which tell of parents who attempted to turn their sons from the unity of God to polytheism: "You bear them company in this life with justice." (Luqman: 15)

Similar too is the call of the Qur'an to righteousness and justice in dealings with the non-Muslims who do not oppose Muslims in their religion: "God forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for (your) faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them, for God loves those who are just." (Al-Mumtahanah : 8)

The Qur'an describes the righteous in the following terms: "And they feed, for the love of God, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive." (Al-Insan : 8)

The captives, at the time of this verse's revelation, were polytheists. The Qur'an also explains that there is no harm in incurring expenses on behalf of polytheists who are relatives or neighbors of Muslims: "It is not required of you (O Apostle) to see them on the right path, but God sets on the right path whom He pleases. Whatever good you give benefits you own souls. And you shall only do so seeking the "Face of God." (Al-Baqarah: 272)


Muhammad ibn al-Hasan, Abu Hanifah's colleague and scribe, has reported that the Prophet had sent money to the people of Makkah when they were facing drought. It was to be distributed among the poor, although the Prophet and his companions had undergone a great deal of torture and oppression at the Makkah's hands.

Imams Al-Bukhari, Muslim, and Ahmad related on the authority of 'Asma bint Abi Bakr that she said: "During the covenant with the Quraish, my polytheistic mother came to see me. I asked the Prophet, upon whom be peace, 'O Messenger of Allah, if my mother came to me wishing to see me, should I maintain good relations with her?' He replied, 'Yes you should treat her kindly.

The words of the Qur'an indicate the correct manner of discussion with non-Muslims: "And do not dispute with the people of the book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury). But say: 'we believe in the Revelation, which has come down to us and in that which came down to you. Our God and your God is one." (Al-Ankabut: 46)


This tolerance manifests itself very clearly in the conduct of the Prophet, in his dealings with the people of the book, whether Christians or Jews. The Prophet used to visit them, treat them kindly and with respect, console their sick and deal with them in terms of "live and let live."

Ibn Ishaq in his Sirah (biography of the Prophet) stated: 'When the delegation of Najrani Christians came to the Prophet at Madinah, they entered his mosque in the afternoon to meet him. It was their prayer time, so they began to perform their prayer in the mosque. Some Muslims were about to prevent them from doing so, but the Prophet, upon whom be peace, said, "Let them pray.", So they faced eastward and performed their prayer.'

Based on the preceding incident, Ibn al-Qayyim, a mujtahid scholar, put up a sign in front of the mosque reading "Admission granted to people of the book that the people of the book could perform their prayers in the presence of Muslims was evidently clear to him.

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...tml#post790412

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Please go through the following links as well. :ia: it will provide a better insight into what Sharia system actually is and clear any misconceptions.

Islamic State
The Islamic State - A Conceptual Analysis
Islamic Politics - Forming an Islamic Democracy.
Islamic Citizenship - System of Rights
Open Challenge to Christians - Page 6 onwards
[post] Religious toleration?
[post] Religious toleration?
Tolerance in Islam
The Muslim-Christian dialogue - I
The Muslim-Christian dialogue - II
Is this true? [Insulting the Prophet] - All punishments carried out by Islamic state; no vigilante justice
Treatment of prisoners-of-war in Islam
Health care for prisoners in Islam.



Dhimmi
The Rights of a Dhimmi (non muslim) & Muslim in an Islamic State.
Dhimmi - ذمي
[post] How do you treat an apostate?



Jizya
The Jizyah – A Tax on Non-Muslims?
Jizya in Islam



Modernistic/Progressive trends

[post] Lashing, stoning, mutilating: Islamic law is barbaric and outdated. Defend the ca

Making progress with the progressives: transcript of a good lecture by Yasir Qadhi. 'Salman in this allegory symbolizes the few pseudo intellectuals who feel Islam can not be a divine religion because it tells women to cover themselves up or that it allows polygamy or that it instructs its followers to cut off the hands of the thief...'

The Ideological Divide Between Islam and the West Vol I: Defining the Subjects of Difference

The Role of Reason and Intellect Between the Modern Western Paradigm and Islam

[post] Secularising Islam?



Useful links about Shariah
Maqasid al Shariah: The Objectives of Islamic Law, Dr Mohammad Hashim Kamali [also posted here]
Understanding the Hadith - principles in understanding Qur'an and Hadith
[youtube] Episode 1: The Use & Abuse of Maqaasid as-Sharia - other episodes on youtube
[Islam21c] Playing with Maqasid
[Islam21c] A Call for Muslims to Support the Integration of Parts of Shari’ah into the British Judicial System

http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1550876

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As for peace between Muslims and Jews, it can only be established if they stop breaking the treaties and return what is due of everyone else.

Allah :swt: says,


8:55 Indeed, the worst of living creatures in the sight of Allah are those who have disbelieved, and they will not [ever] believe -
8:56 The ones with whom you made a treaty but then they break their pledge every time, and they do not fear Allah .
8:57 So if you, [O Muhammad], gain dominance over them in war, disperse by [means of] them those behind them that perhaps they will be reminded.
8:58 If you [have reason to] fear from a people betrayal, throw [their treaty] back to them, [putting you] on equal terms. Indeed, Allah does not like traitors.
8:59 And let not those who disbelieve think they will escape. Indeed, they will not cause failure [to Allah ].


5:64 And the Jews say, "The hand of Allah is chained." Chained are their hands, and cursed are they for what they say. Rather, both His hands are extended; He spends however He wills. And that which has been revealed to you from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression and disbelief. And We have cast among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. Every time they kindled the fire of war [against you], Allah extinguished it. And they strive throughout the land [causing] corruption, and Allah does not like corrupters.

[sister herb]

It seems like you are unaware of what Sharia system actually is. Sharia law is only applicable to Muslims. In a Sharia system, Non-Muslims are free to practice their own religion and they are not forced to embrace Islam. It provides justice for all the people, be them Muslim or non-Muslim.

Salam alaykum

Thanks about information. It seems to be then like multicultural/religion system? Everyone can lives by their own laws be belief matters? For muslims, we just call it as sharia-system?

Others can then call it by they systems - what ever they are.

It seems that peace might be possible. :D