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h-n
09-07-2013, 12:19 AM
As Allah stated in the Quran he creates and fashions all things into being, there are people who say we evolved as we share the same genes -when Allah created us from the substance of this world, so just because the similar substances are used that doesn't mean that we are related. As they say we are made up of water just like other creatures too, of course its normal to have substances used from his world were we are able to consume them to ie eating fruits which help our bodies as they provide the properties that we need.

It is Allah that fashions creation it is not possible for the cells to start organising themselves as such to create a person without Allah's help ie you cells be part of the heart, you be part of the lungs, you be part of the brain etc.

Also how are they saying that the first Male appeared?? How can evolution create a seperate Male and female ie you have the male reproductive organs and you have the female ones were she will be able to bear a child and even breastfeed. It doesn't make any sense, so therefore as people quote is intelligent design.

When there are abnormalities with the human body, this happens with Allah's leave, this is were the devils interfere with the bodies of humans -what do they think that they just do- follow humans without touching them?? Of course they touch people and can effect people's health. They wish to say that it isn't right for a Merciful God to allow disabled people to be born-it is a test for them and people, do they deem themselves more kind when they say that this is the only existance that these disabled people will ever have?? Just live in this world and not be able to go to Paradise??

How can evolution create camels, the designs of elephants, of bees? They are designed by our Creator, and as Allah has stated in the Quran were when KIng Solomon peace be upon him understood the language of the animals (which people will do in Paradise), he heard the ant tell the rest to get out of the way of King Solomon peace be upon him-an ANT recognising the coming of the Prophet from afar. All the creatures of sound mind know of the existance of the one God, for any creature not to do so would be pointless of living just as it is for humans.

Allah has created all the creatures of this world and it is not possible any other way.
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facethetruth
09-07-2013, 05:46 PM
Watch Expelled no Intellegence allowed. I was dropped from my Contemporary class when I used to live in the California for proving the doctor wrong, freedom of speech did not help me. He said delete your posts or leave as clear as that.
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h-n
09-08-2013, 12:33 AM
Originally Posted by facethetruth
Watch Expelled no Intellegence allowed. I was dropped from my Contemporary class when I used to live in the California for proving the doctor wrong, freedom of speech did not help me. He said delete your posts or leave as clear as that.
Thanks for the info,, will check it out :)
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Ahmad H
09-08-2013, 01:11 AM
Assalaam alaikum warahmathulahi wabarakathahu,

Bismillahi-Rahmanir-Raheem,

Just because you don't understand evolution doesn't mean it is not true. The Qur'an doesn't state things which are contrary to what is already there in nature. The 'how' of it all cannot be conjectured by your own personal thinking. The argument you gave is saying, "I don't understand evolution, it doesn't connect with what I know of the Qur'an, therefore it is false because the Qur'an is true."

The Qur'an supports the evolutionary theory. Allah said that all life began in water, the Holy Prophet (saw) said this too. Evolution says that life began in the oceans, which are all water. The Qur'an says we are made out of clay (different types are mentioned as well), as are said to evolve from carbon atoms which are in clay especially. just watch this video and you will see how the Qur'an has mentioned this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZSiZ...9Wb7pj7zdaAaP4

Allah did create us with His Hands and shaped us. But if you are implying for one second that you think Allah shaped us with hands the exact same way that a potter makes clay, then you are taking Allah's attributed anthropomorphically. This is wrong, because when Allah says He uses His Hands, they are not like human hands. The Hands He has are something which has the attribute of hands, but it is not at all like human hands. "There is none like unto Him" (42:11) must be kept in mind whenever dealing with Allah and His attributes. His "Hands" are just another attribute, like He has Eyes as well. We cannot know 'how' Allah created the universe. He gave signs of His creation to mankind to reflect and think over. This means that the theories of evolution, which are backed by a large horde of scientific evidence, means that they must be taken into consideration. If we look at the theory of evolution, there is nothing wrong with it except the conclusion that Allah has lacked interference in the matters of evolution.

Allah created us, shaped us and perfected us. If He made us like how humans shape things, then that would remove the mystery behind the meanings of the verse. I think you have misunderstood the Qur'an and are going down a dangerous path by thinking you know the exact meanings, while Allah is fully aware of these meanings. Allah created everything and He has never for one moment allowed things to be out of His control. I am sure you accept that the universe is 14.5 billion years old and that 'yaum' refers to periods of time in which the universe evolved. If you accept that, then naturally humans evolved too like the universe went through stages. When Allah says He created man, He does not mean 'presto!' and a man was there in an instant.

Ar-Razi explained that when Allah says 'Be!' and it is, this does not mean that thing happens right away. Allah has already willed something to happen, and the causes are put in place for that thing to occur. Everything is created in wisdom. We aren't told to reflect on nature for no reason. Just because you don't understand evolution does not make it false. The Qur'an is a comprehensive book which explains everything. The miracle of the Qur'an is that it gave the details of evolution before anyone knew what it meant. The early scholars could not recognize the time periods of creation nor the intricacies of it. All they knew was that Allah did it all. That is what they explained as well as the details of what happened. What they explained is not contrary to evolution, but it is the truth about evolution.

Scientists don't know how things were made and they did not observe it, yet Allah observed it all and told us what happened! So the Qur'an tells us the details which scientists could never know about! Such as the fact that Allah did it all. We were told something hundreds of years before it was understood and observed in the natural world. It is a hidden order to things which Allah unfolded to Muslims, but the disbelievers figured it out. The disbelievers may not have benefited from this worldly knowledge, but us Muslims know the meanings behind all of this and these discoveries are fresh signs from Allah that strengthen our hearts with the firmness of faith. This age is full of disbelief, but within that disbelief those people who discovered nature's hidden order discovered something which Muslims can appreciate. My faith grew when I saw how evolution was explained in High School, and then I go to read the Qur'an and find that it already mentioned all of that!

Do not throw away knowledge because you think differently. Observe the universe Allah has created, accept it and see how He has described it in His Book. You will see the hidden meanings of His Book and find no contradiction between His Words and His creation. I end this off with one verse of the Qur'an which should invoke this wonder in you:

3:191 Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.

Wassalaam.
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h-n
09-08-2013, 01:41 AM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Assalaam alaikum warahmathulahi wabarakathahu,

Bismillahi-Rahmanir-Raheem,

Just because you don't understand evolution doesn't mean it is not true. The Qur'an doesn't state things which are contrary to what is already there in nature. The 'how' of it all cannot be conjectured by your own personal thinking. The argument you gave is saying, "I don't understand evolution, it doesn't connect with what I know of the Qur'an, therefore it is false because the Qur'an is true."

The Qur'an supports the evolutionary theory. Allah said that all life began in water, the Holy Prophet (saw) said this too. Evolution says that life began in the oceans, which are all water. The Qur'an says we are made out of clay (different types are mentioned as well), as are said to evolve from carbon atoms which are in clay especially. just watch this video and you will see how the Qur'an has mentioned this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZSiZ...9Wb7pj7zdaAaP4

Allah did create us with His Hands and shaped us. But if you are implying for one second that you think Allah shaped us with hands the exact same way that a potter makes clay, then you are taking Allah's attributed anthropomorphically. This is wrong, because when Allah says He uses His Hands, they are not like human hands. The Hands He has are something which has the attribute of hands, but it is not at all like human hands. "There is none like unto Him" (42:11) must be kept in mind whenever dealing with Allah and His attributes. His "Hands" are just another attribute, like He has Eyes as well. We cannot know 'how' Allah created the universe. He gave signs of His creation to mankind to reflect and think over. This means that the theories of evolution, which are backed by a large horde of scientific evidence, means that they must be taken into consideration. If we look at the theory of evolution, there is nothing wrong with it except the conclusion that Allah has lacked interference in the matters of evolution.

Allah created us, shaped us and perfected us. If He made us like how humans shape things, then that would remove the mystery behind the meanings of the verse. I think you have misunderstood the Qur'an and are going down a dangerous path by thinking you know the exact meanings, while Allah is fully aware of these meanings. Allah created everything and He has never for one moment allowed things to be out of His control. I am sure you accept that the universe is 14.5 billion years old and that 'yaum' refers to periods of time in which the universe evolved. If you accept that, then naturally humans evolved too like the universe went through stages. When Allah says He created man, He does not mean 'presto!' and a man was there in an instant.

Ar-Razi explained that when Allah says 'Be!' and it is, this does not mean that thing happens right away. Allah has already willed something to happen, and the causes are put in place for that thing to occur. Everything is created in wisdom. We aren't told to reflect on nature for no reason. Just because you don't understand evolution does not make it false. The Qur'an is a comprehensive book which explains everything. The miracle of the Qur'an is that it gave the details of evolution before anyone knew what it meant. The early scholars could not recognize the time periods of creation nor the intricacies of it. All they knew was that Allah did it all. That is what they explained as well as the details of what happened. What they explained is not contrary to evolution, but it is the truth about evolution.

Scientists don't know how things were made and they did not observe it, yet Allah observed it all and told us what happened! So the Qur'an tells us the details which scientists could never know about! Such as the fact that Allah did it all. We were told something hundreds of years before it was understood and observed in the natural world. It is a hidden order to things which Allah unfolded to Muslims, but the disbelievers figured it out. The disbelievers may not have benefited from this worldly knowledge, but us Muslims know the meanings behind all of this and these discoveries are fresh signs from Allah that strengthen our hearts with the firmness of faith. This age is full of disbelief, but within that disbelief those people who discovered nature's hidden order discovered something which Muslims can appreciate. My faith grew when I saw how evolution was explained in High School, and then I go to read the Qur'an and find that it already mentioned all of that!

Do not throw away knowledge because you think differently. Observe the universe Allah has created, accept it and see how He has described it in His Book. You will see the hidden meanings of His Book and find no contradiction between His Words and His creation. I end this off with one verse of the Qur'an which should invoke this wonder in you:

3:191 Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.

Wassalaam.
???? First your telling me that I don't understand evolution, then you saying that scientists don't either, then saying we don't understand but doesn't mean we should reject evolution when Allah has already provided us the truth ( a clear message, not something confusing). Also Allah did fashion Mankind, Prophet Adam peace be upon him didn't pop out of the water, the dust was collected from this world and was taken to heaven were he was created by Allah and were Allah gave him his soul and then Allah created Eve seperately.

We can't change what the WORD evolution means as its what wrong doers use to imply that things have changed without any influence from God-when Allah FASHIONS THINGS which I have not dismissed at all. In Islam we are clear we don't tell the evil doers that we accept evolution then they would think that we accept what they mean by it, it is a word created by them-as then how can you teach about Islam being seperate from wrongdoers?? Islam, a religion perfected, things in this world use water, of course not all things are created with water ie the Jinn, angels.

Allah fashions all beings, ie allowing people to have different colour hair and eyes,
Allah has fashioned the many different types of birds.

And yes when God Says BE it can be created just like that if he wanted to. Why question that when even a jinn was able to swiftly bring a throne to the Prophet Solomon peace be upon him. When Allah created the bird that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him created out of clay, and mended the one that Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him killed and placed in seperate places. If Allah decides not to have something created straightaway it's his choice. But don't start telling anyone that Allah's throne also evolved, and Allah had to wait for it to be finished.

No I don't agree that the Universe if 14.5 billion years old, don't tell me that anyone else knows either. Were not going to have all the information of this planet and creation, but what we accept is what Allah has taught us-what benefits us which is why we don't need the numbers of the people taking refuge in the cave. Therefore there is no mystery to the Quran as the Quran is a message to the people for them to repent and worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell. The words of Alif, Lam and Mim etc, is from Allah to ask, but again to imply that the Quran is a mystery is wrong as Allah clearly already stated that this is a clear message from Allah to Mankind to heed his message. We not going to turn the Quran as the Christians have done to crack a code-this message has been given to people who are even illiterate, it was enough a simple, clear message that there is one God, the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell. It is rather that you are in error by seeking more (knowledge that you don't possess in this world) then understanding what Allah has taught you in the first place.

Just because you don't know what to say back to scientists/atheists doesn't mean that you have to change what Islam is saying to fit what they are doing.

So I still say that I agree with intelligent design NOT with evolution, as we accept Allah fashioning his creation.

If you agree with evolution, perhaps you like to say that your great, great, great, great...... grandmother was an ape. ;D

:popcorn:
Reply

Ahmad H
09-08-2013, 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by h-n
???? First your telling me that I don't understand evolution, then you saying that scientists don't either, then saying we don't understand but doesn't mean we should reject evolution when Allah has already provided us the truth ( a clear message, not something confusing). Also Allah did fashion Mankind, Prophet Adam peace be upon him didn't pop out of the water, the dust was collected from this world and was taken to heaven were he was created by Allah and were Allah gave him his soul and then Allah created Eve seperately.
See. You are making interpretations yourself here. Obviously Allah fashioned mankind, but you are assuming it was done one way, while it could have been completely different from that. This age-old interpretation that things happened instantaneously has no backing.



Originally Posted by h-n
We can't change what the WORD evolution means as its what wrong doers use to imply that things have changed without any influence from God-when Allah FASHIONS THINGS which I have not dismissed at all. In Islam we are clear we don't tell the evil doers that we accept evolution then they would think that we accept what they mean by it, it is a word created by them-as then how can you teach about Islam being seperate from wrongdoers?? Islam, a religion perfected, things in this world use water, of course not all things are created with water ie the Jinn, angels.
I understand you want to use the term "intelligent design" to mean that Allah created the universe and that He had full control over it. I agree with that was well. But don't forget that we "evolved". What we know from scientific evidence is not meant to contradict what we know from the Qur'an. You have to accept that what we understood before by the interpretations of verses of the Qur'an may require re-interpretation. What we know from before is correct, it just needs to be tweaked. We are still made from the dust, and we are fashioned by Allah. But HOW we are fashioned is a whole other story. YOU cannot force an interpretation on the Qur'an because the old commentaries say that. The old commentaries were based on the knowledge that Muslims had before. Perhaps the scientific knowledge we have now equips us to understand what those older interpretations were saying and clarifies what Allah said about our creation.

Originally Posted by h-n
Allah fashions all beings, ie allowing people to have different colour hair and eyes,
Allah has fashioned the many different types of birds.
Couldn't agree more. My firm belief is in all of this. Allah is Al-Khaaliq.

Originally Posted by h-n
And yes when God Says BE it can be created just like that if he wanted to. Why question that when even a jinn was able to swiftly bring a throne to the Prophet Solomon peace be upon him. When Allah created the bird that Prophet Jesus peace be upon him created out of clay, and mended the one that Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him killed and placed in seperate places. If Allah decides not to have something created straightaway it's his choice. But don't start telling anyone that Allah's throne also evolved, and Allah had to wait for it to be finished.
Again, you are forcing your own interpretation on this issue. I mentioned Ar-Razi explained how to understand "Be!" and it is. I don't care about your opinion. If I mention a scholar's opinion on something, then I expect you to at least mention another interpretation of Allah's Words based on some scholarly opinion as well.

And mentioning Allah's throne evolved? Astaghfirullah. I am only speaking about humans evolving here. Allah's Throne is not an object nor is it something which can be given any physical location. It is something beyond our comprehension. I will leave it at that on His Throne.

Originally Posted by h-n
No I don't agree that the Universe if 14.5 billion years old, don't tell me that anyone else knows either. Were not going to have all the information of this planet and creation, but what we accept is what Allah has taught us-what benefits us which is why we don't need the numbers of the people taking refuge in the cave. Therefore there is no mystery to the Quran as the Quran is a message to the people for them to repent and worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell. The words of Alif, Lam and Mim etc, is from Allah to ask, but again to imply that the Quran is a mystery is wrong as Allah clearly already stated that this is a clear message from Allah to Mankind to heed his message. We not going to turn the Quran as the Christians have done to crack a code-this message has been given to people who are even illiterate, it was enough a simple, clear message that there is one God, the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell. It is rather that you are in error by seeking more (knowledge that you don't possess in this world) then understanding what Allah has taught you in the first place.
I already quoted verse 3:191, but it seems you completely missed that quotation. Allah said in that verse that in the heavens and the earth there are signs for those who believe. Does this mean we should not inquire as to what is in the Heavens and the Earth and turn a blind eye to it? No. I think you are anti-learning the way you presume we should not learn anything about the universe. I am starting to think you are backwards by claiming we should never know anything about the age of the universe simply because we don't know the number of the people of the cave. That is the most ludicrous way of arguing about numbers. The Qur'ans stories are not meant to be history, they are meant to teach lessons for which the details are not important. Like with Dhu'l Qarnain, what happened in the Qur'an is important, not the actual historical figure himself. This does not mean we should never study history and that we could never know anything about any past figures.

Honestly, you need to look at things differently. You really don't know anything about evolution. Fine, you are on board with intelligent design. That is just a term. Yes, we may not accept what Atheists think, but this does not mean we should disregard scientific fact. Allah CREATED everything, and He made everything with WISDOM. Therefore, to understand His creation REQUIRES WISDOM, NOT the lack of wisdom.

Originally Posted by h-n
Just because you don't know what to say back to scientists/atheists doesn't mean that you have to change what Islam is saying to fit what they are doing.
Even if this was the case (which it isn't, I have discussed God with Atheists, they are dismissive, and that's all there is to it), it doesn't change the fact that if you were to tell an Atheist that "Intelligent design is correct and evolution is wrong", they would just laugh at you. They would never take someone like you seriously, who thinks Adam was created the same way a clay statue is made and that we do not know the age of the universe (despite the estimates). They will think you've gone bonkers. I dare you to go up to an Atheist and try to argue on Intelligent Design the way you just argued it to me. NO Atheist will take you seriously. That is the honest truth. Test out my hypothesis if you think I am wrong.

Originally Posted by h-n
If you agree with evolution, perhaps you like to say that your great, great, great, great...... grandmother was an ape.
Again, another reason why you need to go and study evolution again. We have common ancestors with the apes, but we were never apes ourselves. This is why I told you to go and research on the theory of evolution. I am not telling you to accept that God did not create the universe. I am strongly against any Atheist principles and I think they're self-aggrandized beliefs are loathsome and arrogant. There is no harm in learning something which you will find beneficial to your faith.

The Qur'an is easy to understand, yes, but it DOES have mysterious meanings to it which are somewhat incomprehensible. Such as those on Heaven and Hell. We know Heaven is beautiful and punishments in Hell are severe, but we do not know the actual extent to which Heaven is beautiful and Hell is severe. That is reserved for the Hereafter. Yes, the Holy Prophet (saw) received the best Tafsir of the Qur'an from Jibril (as), but we do not have that whole Tafsir. Even if we did, what we know now would make that Tafsir even more clear in meaning because some things in it were incomprehensible to the Arabs. For example, they did not know what the Dukhan meant when Allah described His making the Heavens and the Earth. We know now that the Dukhan is the nebula which the Solar System and much of the universe was made out of. Those are clouds of gas and smoke, thus, "Dukhan". However, 1400 years ago we did not understand what the "Dukhan" was. This is the miracle of the new meanings of the Qur'an which science discovers. It brings the Qur'an into a whole new light. We did not know the universe was made from a single point, but that is the Ratqan which is mentioned in Surah Al-Anbiya.

You are really missing out on a lot here. you are brushing off some amazing discoveries which put the Qur'an in a whole new light. Please do read up more on these and reflect on the Qur'an again after learning about them. Allah's creation is wondrous. His Greatness is reflected in His works.
Reply

facethetruth
09-08-2013, 08:30 AM
Brother you can watch expelled no intelligence allowed too. When I proved my professor wrong that was not because I am a biologist genus, I had a doctor from Harvard and a Biologist from Hopkins helping me :) the conclusion is Evolution occur but in the same species not from species to another, other wise the simplest creatures such ants and these things would not exist because they shouldve evolved through these thousands of centuries.
Reply

Abdul Fattah
09-08-2013, 11:41 AM
Aselam aleykum
You don't even have to bring religion into the debate to show evolution is problematic. The problem is that evolution is a group word for many sub-theories, each with it's own strengths/weaknesses. Some of them, like common descent, have no testability, no falsifiability, and are not based on empirical data. For that reason alone this sub-theory, or any theory built on it shouldn't even be considered as a scientific theory, but is instead nothing more then a philosophical hypothesis...
Reply

h-n
09-08-2013, 02:12 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
See. You are making interpretations yourself here. Obviously Allah fashioned mankind, but you are assuming it was done one way, while it could have been completely different from that. This age-old interpretation that things happened instantaneously has no backing.

I understand you want to use the term "intelligent design" to mean that Allah created the universe and that He had full control over it. I agree with that was well. But don't forget that we "evolved". What we know from scientific evidence is not meant to contradict what we know from the Qur'an. You have to accept that what we understood before by the interpretations of verses of the Qur'an may require re-interpretation. What we know from before is correct, it just needs to be tweaked. We are still made from the dust, and we are fashioned by Allah. But HOW we are fashioned is a whole other story. YOU cannot force an interpretation on the Qur'an because the old commentaries say that. The old commentaries were based on the knowledge that Muslims had before. Perhaps the scientific knowledge we have now equips us to understand what those older interpretations were saying and clarifies what Allah said about our creation.

Couldn't agree more. My firm belief is in all of this. Allah is Al-Khaaliq.

Again, you are forcing your own interpretation on this issue. I mentioned Ar-Razi explained how to understand "Be!" and it is. I don't care about your opinion. If I mention a scholar's opinion on something, then I expect you to at least mention another interpretation of Allah's Words based on some scholarly opinion as well.

And mentioning Allah's throne evolved? Astaghfirullah. I am only speaking about humans evolving here. Allah's Throne is not an object nor is it something which can be given any physical location. It is something beyond our comprehension. I will leave it at that on His Throne.

I already quoted verse 3:191, but it seems you completely missed that quotation. Allah said in that verse that in the heavens and the earth there are signs for those who believe. Does this mean we should not inquire as to what is in the Heavens and the Earth and turn a blind eye to it? No. I think you are anti-learning the way you presume we should not learn anything about the universe. I am starting to think you are backwards by claiming we should never know anything about the age of the universe simply because we don't know the number of the people of the cave. That is the most ludicrous way of arguing about numbers. The Qur'ans stories are not meant to be history, they are meant to teach lessons for which the details are not important. Like with Dhu'l Qarnain, what happened in the Qur'an is important, not the actual historical figure himself. This does not mean we should never study history and that we could never know anything about any past figures.

Honestly, you need to look at things differently. You really don't know anything about evolution. Fine, you are on board with intelligent design. That is just a term. Yes, we may not accept what Atheists think, but this does not mean we should disregard scientific fact. Allah CREATED everything, and He made everything with WISDOM. Therefore, to understand His creation REQUIRES WISDOM, NOT the lack of wisdom.

Even if this was the case (which it isn't, I have discussed God with Atheists, they are dismissive, and that's all there is to it), it doesn't change the fact that if you were to tell an Atheist that "Intelligent design is correct and evolution is wrong", they would just laugh at you. They would never take someone like you seriously, who thinks Adam was created the same way a clay statue is made and that we do not know the age of the universe (despite the estimates). They will think you've gone bonkers. I dare you to go up to an Atheist and try to argue on Intelligent Design the way you just argued it to me. NO Atheist will take you seriously. That is the honest truth. Test out my hypothesis if you think I am wrong.
Again, another reason why you need to go and study evolution again. We have common ancestors with the apes, but we were never apes ourselves. This is why I told you to go and research on the theory of evolution. I am not telling you to accept that God did not create the universe. I am strongly against any Atheist principles and I think they're self-aggrandized beliefs are loathsome and arrogant. There is no harm in learning something which you will find beneficial to your faith.

The Qur'an is easy to understand, yes, but it DOES have mysterious meanings to it which are somewhat incomprehensible. Such as those on Heaven and Hell. We know Heaven is beautiful and punishments in Hell are severe, but we do not know the actual extent to which Heaven is beautiful and Hell is severe. That is reserved for the Hereafter. Yes, the Holy Prophet (saw) received the best Tafsir of the Qur'an from Jibril (as), but we do not have that whole Tafsir. Even if we did, what we know now would make that Tafsir even more clear in meaning because some things in it were incomprehensible to the Arabs. For example, they did not know what the Dukhan meant when Allah described His making the Heavens and the Earth. We know now that the Dukhan is the nebula which the Solar System and much of the universe was made out of. Those are clouds of gas and smoke, thus, "Dukhan". However, 1400 years ago we did not understand what the "Dukhan" was. This is the miracle of the new meanings of the Qur'an which science discovers. It brings the Qur'an into a whole new light. We did not know the universe was made from a single point, but that is the Ratqan which is mentioned in Surah Al-Anbiya.

You are really missing out on a lot here. you are brushing off some amazing discoveries which put the Qur'an in a whole new light. Please do read up more on these and reflect on the Qur'an again after learning about them. Allah's creation is wondrous. His Greatness is reflected in His works.

"We have common ancestors with the apes," you stated and your telling me that I'm the one with the problem??? Prophet Adam peace be upon him is our ancestor and he did not evolve from apes, neither are we related to them, save the few that were turned into apes and swines at Allah's will -as they were despised.

I have spoken to Atheists, plenty of them and they cannot respond and if you don't know "atheism" does not actually exist as Allah stated many a times they reject the "truth", they don't reject something that they don't understand. This is why Allah sent the Prophets to tell them to repent, this was enough and for Allah to send them to Hell is a very, very, very good reason. As your too embarrassed to talk about Islam, because of the reactions of people as your obviously swept up by what they think, there is no need to place your ignorance on show.

I don't have to listen to "scholars", who can't even sort out the infighting between Muslims, and lets not forget a number of them leaving Islam. Go your way, and I'll go mine, as I am responsible for my own actions. IF this is what your "scholar" comes up with, then I take no shame in running away from corrupt people.


Your saying that the Muslims in the past didn't understand the Quran, and now they do because of what the disbelievers are doing??
Allah stated this is a clear message. What is obvious is people's intentions, our goal is NOT to learn about how this universe is created (as Allah even stated about the Christians talking about Prophet Jesus peace be upon him it is only conjecture-idle chit chat) that frankly you don't have the knowledge by talking about clusters. I am 100% happy and support the idea that people should get educated.

Your posts reeks of being uncomfortable with the face of what the non-believers have been doing in this world and your just saying I agree with the conclusion that they have come as you don't have anything in your defence to say to them. Which is why people should read the Quran and BELIEVE, as no one would be saying that we are related to apes. The goal in this world is to worship God, and whatever we learn is in line with what Allah states, what the disbelievers have been doing is part of their test, were people like to say that they will not be resurrected, they will not escape God no matter what they do, for even the people of Thamud were arrogant of carving their homes in the mountains, and this is no different, and instead of looking at this as a test for people your actually saying that people are unlocking the secrets of Allah-how on the wrong path you are!! The Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him understood the message and so did his companions we don't need disbelievers telling us what it means a thousand years later!!!!! :bump1:
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crimsontide06
09-08-2013, 02:30 PM
Evolution:The changing of an organism over time to accommodate to its environment..etc. This is what evolution means.


Allah CREATED the "law of nature"; things happening certain ways are because that is how nature works....which includes evolution.
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Ahmad H
09-08-2013, 02:38 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
Your saying that the Muslims in the past didn't understand the Quran, and now they do because of what the disbelievers are doing?? Allah stated this is a clear message. What is obvious is people's intentions, our goal is NOT to learn about how this universe is created and attribute anything that frankly you don't have the knowledge by talking about clusters. I am 100% happy and support the idea that people should get educated.
The Muslims of the past obviously understood the Qur'an, but we now know the hidden mysteries behind some of those meanings. They did not have access to the knowledge of the universe we have today. My intentions are clear, to see the miracle of Allah's Words in His creation.

Originally Posted by h-n
Your posts reeks of being uncomfortable with the face of what the non-believers have been doing in this world and your just saying I agree with the conclusion that they have come as you don't have anything in your defence to say to them. Which is why people should read the Quran and BELIEVE, as no one would be saying that we are related to apes. The goal in this world is to worship God, and whatever we learn is in line with what Allah states, what the disbelievers have been doing is part of their test, were people like to say that they will not be resurrected, they will not escape God no matter what they do, for even the people of Thamud were arrogant of carving their homes in the mountains, and this is no different, and instead of looking this has people being tested your actually saying that people are unlocking the secrets of Allah-how on the wrong path you are!! The Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him understood the message and so did his companions we don't need disbelievers telling us what it means a thousand years later!!!!!
Sister, what is your problem exactly here? There is nothing wrong with learning science. Yes, when we learn about nature, we are learning about the secrets of Allah's creation, because we did not know those things before. We find patterns in things. These patterns are mentioned in the Qur'an, such as that everything is created in pairs, Allah split the sky and the earth, then the sky rained and the earth split open for vegetation. Now we know this means that life on earth began when the skies contained water. There was a protective roof over the earth. In fact, we know now that the Qur'an says the sky is a "protected roof" because there is a magnetic field that protects the earth was harmful radiation from the sun and that there are many layers to the atmosphere which protects life on earth from the harmful radiation from space and contains our oxygen. The early companions did not know this, but they knew that these things were around and they existed. They just did not know what it was.

Now that we see these things, we learn what the Qur'an is saying. I don't believe you are 100% happy that people should get educated. I think you yourself are uneducated and are backwards living in the past and cannot fathom the very simple fact that Allah's creation, what we observe in it, does not conflict with the Qur'an. Learning about Allah's creation allows us to understand the Qur'an even better. Allah told us to reflect over the Heavens and the Earth. There are signs in the Heavens and the Earth which strengthen the faith of the believer.

Go back and read the Qur'an a little more. Knowledge which is learnt in order to understand the Qur'an better is good, not bad. This is my intention when I learn about nature, it is not to argue with Atheists. Really, what a silly way to look at things and twist them here. Are you not provoked on saying Subhanallah when you see the vastness of the universe and our being so small? Are you not thankful that Allah created us from the huge oceans? Allah tells us that when we observe the Heavens, we would not find a single flaw (67:3). This cannot happen unless we humans learned to observe the vastness of space. So stop being anti-science.
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observer
09-08-2013, 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
...and if you don't know "atheism" does not actually exist as Allah stated many a times they reject the "truth", they don't reject something that they don't understand.
Imagine if I said that there are no religious people really - no real muslims; all they are are people who are not intelligent enough to see the truth that there is no god. If they understood, they wouldn't be religious - they'd be atheist.

What would you think? That I was being offensive or bigoted? That it was a stupid thing to say?

I'd agree with you - but that's exactly what you're saying here about atheists.

Any religious person would be offended by having their beliefs labelled ignorant and most people are careful to be respectful. Yet to insult an atheist's beliefs is fine: why?
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crimsontide06
09-08-2013, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by observer
Any religious person would be offended by having their beliefs labelled ignorant and most people are careful to be respectful. Yet to insult an atheist's beliefs is fine: why?

Personally, I wouldn't insult any "belief" but I think the reason some people look at atheism as ok to insult is that believing in a god/deity, is deemed the dominant "norm" of most of society.
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observer
09-08-2013, 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by crimsontide06
Personally, I wouldn't insult any "belief" but I think the reason some people look at atheism as ok to insult is that believing in a god/deity, is deemed the dominant "norm" of most of society.

That may be, but it's not really a good rule of thumb that it's okay to insult anything that's not the norm I'd hope!
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h-n
09-08-2013, 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by crimsontide06
Evolution:The changing of an organism over time to accommodate to its environment..etc. This is what evolution means.


Allah CREATED the "law of nature"; things happening certain ways are because that is how nature works....which includes evolution.
Evolution as you stated is a changing of organism -believing that humans evolved over time-were they say that we came from apes, and that our ancestors were neandethals so we do not accept his as we Prophet Adam peace be upon him was created in as a perfect Man who walked upright.
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h-n
09-08-2013, 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
The Muslims of the past obviously understood the Qur'an, but we now know the hidden mysteries behind some of those meanings. They did not have access to the knowledge of the universe we have today. My intentions are clear, to see the miracle of Allah's Words in His creation.



Sister, what is your problem exactly here? There is nothing wrong with learning science. Yes, when we learn about nature, we are learning about the secrets of Allah's creation, because we did not know those things before. We find patterns in things. These patterns are mentioned in the Qur'an, such as that everything is created in pairs, Allah split the sky and the earth, then the sky rained and the earth split open for vegetation. Now we know this means that life on earth began when the skies contained water. There was a protective roof over the earth. In fact, we know now that the Qur'an says the sky is a "protected roof" because there is a magnetic field that protects the earth was harmful radiation from the sun and that there are many layers to the atmosphere which protects life on earth from the harmful radiation from space and contains our oxygen. The early companions did not know this, but they knew that these things were around and they existed. They just did not know what it was.

Now that we see these things, we learn what the Qur'an is saying. I don't believe you are 100% happy that people should get educated. I think you yourself are uneducated and are backwards living in the past and cannot fathom the very simple fact that Allah's creation, what we observe in it, does not conflict with the Qur'an. Learning about Allah's creation allows us to understand the Qur'an even better. Allah told us to reflect over the Heavens and the Earth. There are signs in the Heavens and the Earth which strengthen the faith of the believer.

Go back and read the Qur'an a little more. Knowledge which is learnt in order to understand the Qur'an better is good, not bad. This is my intention when I learn about nature, it is not to argue with Atheists. Really, what a silly way to look at things and twist them here. Are you not provoked on saying Subhanallah when you see the vastness of the universe and our being so small? Are you not thankful that Allah created us from the huge oceans? Allah tells us that when we observe the Heavens, we would not find a single flaw (67:3). This cannot happen unless we humans learned to observe the vastness of space. So stop being anti-science.
Your just reminding people of what some jews did they deemed themselves with knowledge by saying they knew the names of many angels and how the heavens are run-and thought because they knew this that they were best educated, when they are far astray.

You keep on applying that you are learning about the Quran when you accept the disbelievers and say that we share apes as ancestors, then you using examples from the Quran to say that this means such and such and that people in the past did not know such and such.

You use the examples of the heavens and the earth-and you before attached relevance to star clusters, -there is no evidence that you have reached HEAVEN to say that this is a part of heaven and this is were the earth came from.

When Allah talks about providing rain from the skies, he means just that, when he talks about providing the varieties of fruit he means just that. You don't know how life began on earth (as the earth itself is alive-you can't say that it needed water, just as the heavens itself are alive), just as people don't know how the universe was created in science, and your just accepting it as fact were scientists don't. People in the past knew they had the sunshine in measure of day and did not have it at night, they knew the rainfall provided sustenance to the earth. We know that that the earth came apart from heaven saying that again does not support that you have learnt in science by it-we accept this has fact, we don't need to gather information to verify if the Quran is telling the truth or to make us believe it even more, or to understand it even more.

What you obviously don't get time and time again that people gained this technology etc to test them, and for any believer we heed the signs of the Day of Judgement.

The message that Allah has provided to the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him to worship the one God, remember the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell -THIS MESSAGE GIVEN BY GOD, has been provided by all the Prophets ie Prophet Lut, Noah, Moses, Saleh, David, Solomon peace be upon them. There are people who even go as far as saying that the Quran has a code-Allah is Most Merciful, Most Just, the Judge on the Day of Judgement, he has given his message to Men, women and even children, a SIMPLE message to heed this warnings. If he wanted to you to have all the information of this Universe he would have provided it to you. Allah himself did NOT give you the numbers of the people hiding in the cave, teaching us that people are willing to be in conjecture over anything-which is were you are in now and are on the wrong path of what you say.

AS above is the opposite of what your saying, Allah even said look at the signs of God, ie all the food, rainfall and even look at what has happened to the people who were destroyed-as to REMEMBER AND HEED HIS WARNINGS. He did not say that you need to understand how the world was created to understand the Quran-so your reasoning is NOT religious at all. You even accuse me of being against education when actually I'm against what your saying, you even go as far as saying that yes there is no flaw in Allah's creation-but you have to learn about his creation to find this out?? How awful, not even an illiterate person who looks at God's creation would even say there is a flaw. You say that it helps you learn about the Quran, when you have only conjecture ie about clusters, and even going as far as saying that there the apes are your ancestors.
Reply

h-n
09-08-2013, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by observer
Imagine if I said that there are no religious people really - no real muslims; all they are are people who are not intelligent enough to see the truth that there is no god. If they understood, they wouldn't be religious - they'd be atheist.

What would you think? That I was being offensive or bigoted? That it was a stupid thing to say?

I'd agree with you - but that's exactly what you're saying here about atheists.

Any religious person would be offended by having their beliefs labelled ignorant and most people are careful to be respectful. Yet to insult an atheist's beliefs is fine: why?
I don't have a problem if you feel insulted, here is a list of why if you haven't bothered to read up on Islam;-

1. Prophet Noah peace be upon him came and told the people to repent--SEE THIS-he told them to repent-if there was any such thing as atheism why would the Prophets tell people to repent and worship God straightaway?? They didn't set up classrooms, or community buildings for people to discuss and so they "may" understand. The message that GOD HIMSELF HAS CHOSEN TO GIVE is so simple that there is one God, the Day of Judgement and Paradise and Hell. If there was such a thing as atheism why would God be asking for a Prophet to tell you to pray to him straightaway?? (people of course aren't forced to convert, and they did in taking advantage that God didn't destroy them earlier-but that doesn't change the fact that no Prophet said it was OK for you to repent tomorrow, 2 days later, next week, a couple of months).

There is no such thing as atheism as those people who are good enough to be judged being of sound mind know that God exists, it is the media hype of today were the people make it acceptable to say such things as they didn't in the past ie making homosexual behaviour normal.

2. When Prophet Moses peace be upon him came down the mountain and found the people committing a sin of worshipping the cow idol he didn't say that I'm not going to say anything as they might feel insulted.

3. When Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him smashed the idols to prove a point that they can't defend themselves, speak or help anyone (which I'm not saying that we need to), he didn't say I'm not going to, as I might insult them.

4. When all the Prophets told people that you will be going to Hell if you don't repent, they didn't stop or feel uncomfortable as wrongdoers didn't like them saying such things.

5. Islam isn't going to end up like Christianity were they decided not to speak against sins as much in fear of people saying that that they are being unkind, and even talked about Hell less, were now you get people saying that there loved ones are looking down on them, that they have guardian angels to protect them when they don't worship God, don't even forbid evil and enjoin what is good ie accepting sex outside of marriage.

So I 100% don't have a problem that you feel insulted, as I'm not here to accept what Satan wishes for us to say, when people like you accept his ways.
Reply

observer
09-08-2013, 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
I don't have a problem if you feel insulted, here is a list of why if you haven't bothered to read up on Islam;-

1. Prophet Noah peace be upon him came and told the people to repent--SEE THIS-he told them to repent-if there was any such thing as atheism why would the Prophets tell people to repent and worship God straightaway?? They didn't set up classrooms, or community buildings for people to discuss and so they "may" understand. The message that GOD HIMSELF HAS CHOSEN TO GIVE is so simple that there is one God, the Day of Judgement and Paradise and Hell. If there was such a thing as atheism why would God be asking for a Prophet to tell you to pray to him straightaway?? (people of course aren't forced to convert, and they did in taking advantage that God didn't destroy them earlier-but that doesn't change the fact that no Prophet said it was OK for you to repent tomorrow, 2 days later, next week, a couple of months).

There is no such thing as atheism as those people who are good enough to be judged being of sound mind know that God exists, it is the media hype of today were the people make it acceptable to say such things as they didn't in the past ie making homosexual behaviour normal.

2. When Prophet Moses peace be upon him came down the mountain and found the people committing a sin of worshipping the cow idol he didn't say that I'm not going to say anything as they might feel insulted.

3. When Prophet Ibrahim peace be upon him smashed the idols to prove a point that they can't defend themselves, speak or help anyone (which I'm not saying that we need to), he didn't say I'm not going to, as I might insult them.

4. When all the Prophets told people that you will be going to Hell if you don't repent, they didn't stop or feel uncomfortable as wrongdoers didn't like them saying such things.

5. Islam isn't going to end up like Christianity were they decided not to speak against sins as much in fear of people saying that that they are being unkind, and even talked about Hell less, were now you get people saying that there loved ones are looking down on them, that they have guardian angels to protect them when they don't worship God, don't even forbid evil and enjoin what is good ie accepting sex outside of marriage.

So I 100% don't have a problem that you feel insulted, as I'm not here to accept what Satan wishes for us to say, when people like you accept his ways.
That's all fine, and you clearly hold your beliefs strongly. What is your feeling when someone insults Islam? According to your logic, I should be free to insult Islam if I want because I don't believe in it.
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h-n
09-08-2013, 04:33 PM
Originally Posted by crimsontide06
Personally, I wouldn't insult any "belief" but I think the reason some people look at atheism as ok to insult is that believing in a god/deity, is deemed the dominant "norm" of most of society.
So were do you stand when Allah is critical of the Christians that commit idol worship, with the Jews who look for the life of this world, and with those who reject and reject the truth that they are "deaf, dumb and blind" ??
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h-n
09-08-2013, 04:36 PM
Originally Posted by observer
That's all fine, and you clearly hold your beliefs strongly. What is your feeling when someone insults Islam? According to your logic, I should be free to insult Islam if I want because I don't believe in it.
We are on an Islamicboard talking about Islam, if you wish to insult Islam go somewhere else and it will be written on your record for the Day of Judgement, a day you wish you did not stand with the wrongdoers. So what you decide to do with your time in this test is up to.
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observer
09-08-2013, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
We are on an Islamicboard talking about Islam, if you wish to insult Islam go somewhere else and it will be written on your record for the Day of Judgement, a day you wish you did not stand with the wrongdoers. So what you decide to do with your time in this test is up to.
I think you've missed my point - I think it's pretty clear that people insulting each others' beliefs is pointless and does nothing to help anyone get on. I mean that if you say that it's ok to insult some beliefs, can you complain then if someone insults your belief?

There are very few places that are populated with people who all believe the same thing. The world is only going to get more diverse. With this in mind, I think that mutual respect is the only option for society to be harmonious.
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h-n
09-08-2013, 04:51 PM
Originally Posted by observer
I think you've missed my point - I think it's pretty clear that people insulting each others' beliefs is pointless and does nothing to help anyone get on. I mean that if you say that it's ok to insult some beliefs, can you complain then if someone insults your belief?

There are very few places that are populated with people who all believe the same thing. The world is only going to get more diverse. With this in mind, I think that mutual respect is the only option for society to be harmonious.
Harmonious?? What with homosexuals?? I think not!

It is strange that you talk of this, when actually religious people have already proven to live side by side with those they don't agree with, I myself included, but that doesn't mean of course we don't show dissapproval for the wrongdoers actions, but going as far as saying harmonious-no (as that would go as far as saying that we accept people doing things that God is against). There is only one religion in this world created by God, sent down to all the Prophets ie Prophet Adam, Noah, Moses, Lut, Solomon and David peace be upon them. So of course we are never going to agree with those who go against Islam. That doesn't again mean that we haven't been living side by side, if this is not good enough for you then what is?? Regardless of media portrayals Christians and Muslims have been living side by side for so long ie in Pakistan were they openly decorate their churches, many Jews have refused to leave Iran in reply to the Israel's government. Your trying to make it look like we haven't been, well we have and so have I living side by side peacefully.
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Ahmad H
09-08-2013, 05:06 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
Evolution as you stated is a changing of organism -believing that humans evolved over time-were they say that we came from apes,
This is why you need to read up on evolution. As a Muslim, I am appalled to think that we were descended from apes. The theory says there is a "common ancestor" with the ape family, we are NOT descended from apes. There is a big difference here. I want you to read carefully what I just wrote and ask you to see the difference.
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h-n
09-08-2013, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
This is why you need to read up on evolution. As a Muslim, I am appalled to think that we were descended from apes. The theory says there is a "common ancestor" with the ape family, we are NOT descended from apes. There is a big difference here. I want you to read carefully what I just wrote and ask you to see the difference.
??? How on earth is saying that we share a common ancestor make it any better?? When your actually implying that we are related to apes, which would also mean that we are descended. (ANCESTORS-implies we are DESCENDANTS!!)

This is what happens when you go into evil things and all is the same, but your trying to differentiate between them when it is all evil, and were Allah sends the wrongdoers to Hell together. It is no different in the wrongdoers trying to say that having a glass of wine is better then have a pint of beer-trying to say which one is better when it is all evil.
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Ahmad H
09-08-2013, 05:16 PM
As far as insulting others' beliefs goes, we are not allowed to do that. Shirk is the unforgivable sin with everything else beneath it in regards to the intensity of its evil. Yet, we are not allowed to insult the gods of other people:

6:108 And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allah, lest they insult Allah wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair-seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall then inform them of all that they used to do.

So I don't see how there could be any insults to the beliefs of others. I agree with you h-n that we can live side by side peacefully with disbelievers, yet we do not have to agree with their beliefs.

But let's go back to the discussion on evolution please. Can any other Muslims here give some sources of information on evolution for others to read online that are concise but explanatory? Whether as a Muslim we accept evolution or not, we should learn about these things because we don't know which information will lead us to ultimately recognizing Allah better. Personally, I do not see any problems with accepting that Allah created us through a process of evolution, because this is in the Hukm of Allah. It is not Hukm to accept something which is contrary to observation and enforce that interpretation on Allah's Words.

Classical Tafsirs explain things differently. In our age, we can recognize these things by observation and identify what it is that Allah was talking about. There are future prophecies mentioned in the Qur'an, which the Sahaba of Rasul-e-Karim (saw) did not fully understand. We see some of those things happening now. Such as the return of the Children of Israel to their land, but after that, we Muslims will inherit that land. We have not seen that yet, so we do not fully understand that.

Conclusion: Learn about nature, and Allah's miracles of creation will open up and we can appreciate His Words better. This is my stand. I hope others can agree to this.
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Ahmad H
09-08-2013, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
??? How on earth is saying that we share a common ancestor make it any better?? When your actually implying that we are related to apes, which would also mean that we are descended. (ANCESTORS-implies we are DESCENDANTS!!)

This is what happens when you go into evil things and all is the same, but your trying to differentiate between them when it is all evil, and were Allah sends the wrongdoers to Hell together. It is no different in the wrongdoers trying to say that having a glass of wine is better then have a pint of beer-trying to say which one is better when it is all evil.
How dare you imply that I am saying evil is good. You know h-n, I am trying to be nice here. But you seem to push people's buttons quite easily. You sound no different than a hardliner extremist who can't accept any knowledge. If you are anti-education, then so be it. But don't preach ignorance here.

A common ancestor means that we always remained human, but there are few genetic differences between us and other ape species. This does NOT imply we are apes in any way. We were always human, and remain so. We share many genetic traits with all other species too. Have you looked at the similarities in how humans grow as embryos and other animals? Our stages resemble many other creatures' stages also. Allah created everything from water, thus every living thing started out in the oceans. Obviously there will be similarities.

Go study a book and stop acting foolish. Add something to the argument instead of accusing me of being evil for thinking. I believe in the Qur'an, so stop accusing me of going into evil things. Knowledge is not evil unless your intention is evil. My intention is to understand the Words of Allah. It seems you can't appreciate the miraculous nature of Allah's Words. It's not my fault Allah hasn't given you this intention towards understanding His Word better.
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h-n
09-08-2013, 05:33 PM
When quoting from the Quran it is best to read it first-if you can't understand that one simple thing, then what do you understand, when have you seen Muslims reading up on the hindu idols and making stories and insults and jokes about Ganeesh, Krishna etc??? Why should we read and make up stories about idols?? AS of course they would be thinking about doing it with God, but again no Muslim would wish to read up on the abhorrent claims.

As Muslims WE OPPOSE IDOL WORSHIP IT IS ABHORRENT, AND WE TELL OTHERS THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS DISGUSTING. We oppose evil and enjoin what is good. We're not going to simply say ooh its just something that we don't accept as if someone is offering you a cup of tea.

Read on the basics of Islam, before jumping up and down telling people to accept evolution when the scientists don't understand it themselves, nor do they understand how this world was created, as God didn't give you the knowledge of how many people were sleeping in the cave beside the dog, what makes you think he has given you the rest of the details of how this universe was created?? Listen to how far wrong you are, saying to recognising Allah better??? Miracles of creation will open up to you, when you have not any communication with the next world, your acting as wrongdoers, when its not about being religious, but about arrogance and looking and desiring things that have NOTHING to do with you, not everything that Allah has created has to be known by humans. Its rather like scientists which look towards how the universe is related to humans, rather then Muslims accepting that this is a relationship between Allah and his creation, we weren't witnesses to Allah creating the angels, and the heavens. You are far astray with what you say, telling Muslims to accept in evolution when not even the scientists all agree, telling the Muslims that you think the clusters have something to do with the heavens were you have no knowledge only conjecture. IDLE CHIT CHAT.

Wait then on the Day of Judgement, were no one will be saying that apes are our ancestors, that we evolved.
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h-n
09-08-2013, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
How dare you imply that I am saying evil is good. You know h-n, I am trying to be nice here. But you seem to push people's buttons quite easily. You sound no different than a hardliner extremist who can't accept any knowledge. If you are anti-education, then so be it. But don't preach ignorance here.

A common ancestor means that we always remained human, but there are few genetic differences between us and other ape species. This does NOT imply we are apes in any way. We were always human, and remain so. We share many genetic traits with all other species too. Have you looked at the similarities in how humans grow as embryos and other animals? Our stages resemble many other creatures' stages also. Allah created everything from water, thus every living thing started out in the oceans. Obviously there will be similarities.

Go study a book and stop acting foolish. Add something to the argument instead of accusing me of being evil for thinking. I believe in the Qur'an, so stop accusing me of going into evil things. Knowledge is not evil unless your intention is evil. My intention is to understand the Words of Allah. It seems you can't appreciate the miraculous nature of Allah's Words. It's not my fault Allah hasn't given you this intention towards understanding His Word better.
Your trying to claim that I'm against education when you telling people to accept conjecture???

If you read the first post, I've already mentioned about the confusion were Allah created humans from similar elements he used to create others-which does NOT MAKE THEM OUR ANCESTOR-EITHER YOUR BACKTRACKING OR YOU HAVE A POOR UNDERSTANDING OF ENGLISH!. Trying to be nice, by telling us to be like those fools who spend their whole lives in pursuit but never able to reach heaven, by telling people to spend time reading conjecture instead of the truth that Allah has provided. When did Allah say that you have to listen to the evil doers?? Even in Islam we don't encourage people to read the bible.

We don't accept what the non-Muslims are saying, but you are wishing to say exactly the same thing as them, but by saying it agrees with the Quran you think it would be accepted by any Muslim-as we don't accept it with the wrong doers, why accept it from you when you are clearly as with the wrongdoers speak of issues that you do NOT have knowledge to. It reminds me of some "Muslims" who try and say homosexuality is not a sin, they speak of Islam their way, and you claim about "interpreting"-there is no such thing in Islam as the message is clear and simple, the only one "interpreting is you with your opinions when again you don't have any facts and knowledge of the matter from God.

You say that you wish to understand the words of Allah better and in order to do that you need to listen to what the wrongdoers are saying. This is were I'm laughing out loud.

:lol:
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Ahmad H
09-08-2013, 08:12 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
When quoting from the Quran it is best to read it first-if you can't understand that one simple thing, then what do you understand, when have you seen Muslims reading up on the hindu idols and making stories and insults and jokes about Ganeesh, Krishna etc??? Why should we read and make up stories about idols?? AS of course they would be thinking about doing it with God, but again no Muslim would wish to read up on the abhorrent claims.
Agreed. No Muslims should waste their time on reading up on useless claims, because we know what is falsehood.

Originally Posted by h-n
As Muslims WE OPPOSE IDOL WORSHIP IT IS ABHORRENT, AND WE TELL OTHERS THAT HOMOSEXUALITY IS DISGUSTING. We oppose evil and enjoin what is good. We're not going to simply say ooh its just something that we don't accept as if someone is offering you a cup of tea.
Yes, we reject idol worship. But I don't see how this connects with learning about evolution.

Originally Posted by h-n
Read on the basics of Islam, before jumping up and down telling people to accept evolution when the scientists don't understand it themselves, nor do they understand how this world was created, as God didn't give you the knowledge of how many people were sleeping in the cave beside the dog, what makes you think he has given you the rest of the details of how this universe was created?? Listen to how far wrong you are, saying to recognising Allah better??? Miracles of creation will open up to you, when you have not any communication with the next world, your acting as wrongdoers, when its not about being religious, but about arrogance and looking and desiring things that have NOTHING to do with you, not everything that Allah has created has to be known by humans. Its rather like scientists which look towards how the universe is related to humans, rather then Muslims accepting that this is a relationship between Allah and his creation, we weren't witnesses to Allah creating the angels, and the heavens. You are far astray with what you say, telling Muslims to accept in evolution when not even the scientists all agree, telling the Muslims that you think the clusters have something to do with the heavens were you have no knowledge only conjecture. IDLE CHIT CHAT.
Read on the basics of Islam? I know the basics. The basics tell me that I should learn about the universe and ponder over the signs of Allah.

2:164 Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth; in the alternation of the night and the day; in the sailing of the ships through the ocean for the profit of mankind; in the rain which Allah Sends down from the skies, and the life which He gives therewith to an earth that is dead; in the beasts of all kinds that He scatters through the earth; in the change of the winds, and the clouds which they Trail like their slaves between the sky and the earth;- (Here) indeed are Signs for a people that are wise.

3:190 Behold! in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day,- there are indeed Signs for men of understanding,-
3:191 Men who celebrate the praises of Allah, standing, sitting, and lying down on their sides, and contemplate the (wonders of) creation in the heavens and the earth, (With the thought): "Our Lord! not for naught Hast Thou created (all) this! Glory to Thee! Give us salvation from the penalty of the Fire.

6:97 It is He Who maketh the stars (as beacons) for you, that ye may guide yourselves, with their help, through the dark spaces of land and sea: We detail Our signs for people who know.
6:98 It is He Who hath produced you from a single person: here is a place of sojourn and a place of departure: We detail Our signs for people who understand.
6:99 It is He Who sendeth down rain from the skies: with it We produce vegetation of all kinds: from some We produce green (crops), out of which We produce grain, heaped up (at harvest); out of the date-palm and its sheaths (or spathes) (come) clusters of dates hanging low and near: and (then there are) gardens of grapes, and olives, and pomegranates, each similar (in kind) yet different (in variety): when they begin to bear fruit, feast your eyes with the fruit and the ripeness thereof. Behold! in these things there are signs for people who believe.

7:185 Do they see nothing in the government of the heavens and the earth and all that Allah hath created? (Do they not see) that it may well be that their terms is nigh drawing to an end? In what message after this will they then believe?

10:3 Verily your Lord is Allah, who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and is firmly established on the throne (of authority), regulating and governing all things. No intercessor (can plead with Him) except after His leave (hath been obtained). This is Allah your Lord; Him therefore serve ye: will ye not receive admonition?
10:4 To Him will be your return- of all of you. The promise of Allah is true and sure. It is He Who beginneth the process of creation, and repeateth it, that He may reward with justice those who believe and work righteousness; but those who reject Him will have draughts of boiling fluids, and a penalty grievous, because they did reject Him.
10:5 It is He Who made the sun to be a shining glory and the moon to be a light (of beauty), and measured out stages for her; that ye might know the number of years and the count (of time). Nowise did Allah create this but in truth and righteousness. (Thus) doth He explain His Signs in detail, for those who understand.
10:6 Verily, in the alternation of the night and the day, and in all that Allah hath created, in the heavens and the earth, are signs for those who fear Him.

13:2 Allah is He Who raised the heavens without any pillars that ye can see; is firmly established on the throne (of authority); He has subjected the sun and the moon (to his Law)! Each one runs (its course) for a term appointed. He doth regulate all affairs, explaining the signs in detail, that ye may believe with certainty in the meeting with your Lord.
13:3 And it is He who spread out the earth, and set thereon mountains standing firm and (flowing) rivers: and fruit of every kind He made in pairs, two and two: He draweth the night as a veil o'er the Day. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who consider!
13:4 And in the earth are tracts (diverse though) neighbouring, and gardens of vines and fields sown with corn, and palm trees - growing out of single roots or otherwise: watered with the same water, yet some of them We make more excellent than others to eat. Behold, verily in these things there are signs for those who understand!

16:10 It is He who sends down rain from the sky: from it ye drink, and out of it (grows) the vegetation on which ye feed your cattle.
16:11 With it He produces for you corn, olives, date-palms, grapes and every kind of fruit: verily in this is a sign for those who give thought.
16:12 He has made subject to you the Night and the Day; the sun and the moon; and the stars are in subjection by His Command: verily in this are Signs for men who are wise.
16:13 And the things on this earth which He has multiplied in varying colours (and qualities): verily in this is a sign for men who celebrate the praises of Allah (in gratitude).
16:14 It is He Who has made the sea subject, that ye may eat thereof flesh that is fresh and tender, and that ye may extract therefrom ornaments to wear; and thou seest the ships therein that plough the waves, that ye may seek (thus) of the bounty of Allah and that ye may be grateful.

16:65 And Allah sends down rain from the skies, and gives therewith life to the earth after its death: verily in this is a Sign for those who listen.
16:66 And verily in cattle (too) will ye find an instructive sign. From what is within their bodies between excretions and blood, We produce, for your drink, milk, pure and agreeable to those who drink it.
16:67 And from the fruit of the date-palm and the vine, ye get out wholesome drink and food: behold, in this also is a sign for those who are wise.
16:68 And thy Lord taught the Bee to build its cells in hills, on trees, and in (men's) habitations;
16:69 Then to eat of all the produce (of the earth), and find with skill the spacious paths of its Lord: there issues from within their bodies a drink of varying colours, wherein is healing for men: verily in this is a Sign for those who give thought.

16:79 Do they not look at the birds, held poised in the midst of (the air and) the sky? Nothing holds them up but (the power of) Allah. Verily in this are signs for those who believe.

20:53 "He Who has, made for you the earth like a carpet spread out; has enabled you to go about therein by roads (and channels); and has sent down water from the sky." With it have We produced diverse pairs of plants each separate from the others.
20:54 Eat (for yourselves) and pasture your cattle: verily, in this are Signs for men endued with understanding.

21:30 Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?
21:31 And We have set on the earth mountains standing firm, lest it should shake with them, and We have made therein broad highways (between mountains) for them to pass through: that they may receive Guidance.
21:32 And We have made the heavens as a canopy well guarded: yet do they turn away from the Signs which these things (point to)!

26:7 Do they not look at the earth,- how many noble things of all kinds We have produced therein?
26:8 Verily, in this is a Sign: but most of them do not believe.

27:86 See they not that We have made the Night for them to rest in and the Day to give them light? Verily in this are Signs for any people that believe!

29:44 Allah created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): verily in that is a Sign for those who believe.

30:8 Do they not reflect in their own minds? Not but for just ends and for a term appointed, did Allah create the heavens and the earth, and all between them: yet are there truly many among men who deny the meeting with their Lord (at the Resurrection)!

30:20 Among His Signs in this, that He created you from dust; and then,- behold, ye are men scattered (far and wide)!
30:21 And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect.
30:22 And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours: verily in that are Signs for those who know.
30:23 And among His Signs is the sleep that ye take by night and by day, and the quest that ye (make for livelihood) out of His Bounty: verily in that are signs for those who hearken.
30:24 And among His Signs, He shows you the lightning, by way both of fear and of hope, and He sends down rain from the sky and with it gives life to the earth after it is dead: verily in that are Signs for those who are wise.
30:25 And among His Signs is this, that heaven and earth stand by His Command: then when He calls you, by a single call, from the earth, behold, ye (straightway) come forth.
30:26 To Him belongs every being that is in the heavens and on earth: all are devoutly obedient to Him.
30:27 It is He Who begins (the process of) creation; then repeats it; and for Him it is most easy. To Him belongs the loftiest similitude (we can think of) in the heavens and the earth: for He is Exalted in Might, full of wisdom.
30:28 He does propound to you a similitude from your own (experience): do ye have partners among those whom your right hands possess, to share as equals in the wealth We have bestowed on you? Do ye fear them as ye fear each other? Thus do we explain the Signs in detail to a people that understand.
30:29 Nay, the wrong-doers (merely) follow their own lusts, being devoid of knowledge. But who will guide those whom Allah leaves astray? To them there will be no helpers.

45:3 Verily in the heavens and the earth, are Signs for those who believe.
45:4 And in the creation of yourselves and the fact that animals are scattered (through the earth), are Signs for those of assured Faith.
45:5 And in the alternation of Night and Day, and the fact that Allah sends down Sustenance from the sky, and revives therewith the earth after its death, and in the change of the winds,- are Signs for those that are wise.
45:6 Such are the Signs of Allah, which We rehearse to thee in Truth; then in what exposition will they believe after (rejecting) Allah and His Signs?

45:13 And He has subjected to you, as from Him, all that is in the heavens and on earth: Behold, in that are Signs indeed for those who reflect.

50:6 Do they not look at the sky above them?- How We have made it and adorned it, and there are no flaws in it?
50:7 And the earth- We have spread it out, and set thereon mountains standing firm, and produced therein every kind of beautiful growth (in pairs)-
50:8 To be observed and commemorated by every devotee turning (to Allah).
50:9 And We send down from the sky rain charted with blessing, and We produce therewith gardens and Grain for harvests;
50:10 And tall (and stately) palm-trees, with shoots of fruit-stalks, piled one over another;-
50:11 As sustenance for (Allah's) Servants;- and We give (new) life therewith to land that is dead: Thus will be the Resurrection.

51:47 With power and skill did We construct the Firmament: for it is We Who create the vastness of pace.
51:48 And We have spread out the (spacious) earth: How excellently We do spread out!
51:49 And of every thing We have created pairs: That ye may receive instruction.

67:3 He Who created the seven heavens one above another: No want of proportion wilt thou see in the Creation of (Allah) Most Gracious. So turn thy vision again: seest thou any flaw?
67:4 Again turn thy vision a second time: (thy) vision will come back to thee dull and discomfited, in a state worn out.

80:24 Then let man look at his food, (and how We provide it):
80:25 For that We pour forth water in abundance,
80:26 And We split the earth in fragments,
80:27 And produce therein corn,
80:28 And Grapes and nutritious plants,
80:29 And Olives and Dates,
80:30 And enclosed Gardens, dense with lofty trees,
80:31 And fruits and fodder,-
80:32 For use and convenience to you and your cattle.

These are 70 verses of the Qur'an that are focused on telling the believers to reflect over the various creations of Allah. Everything is included in these. Furthermore, there are verses which tells us to visit the habitations of the people of old. Archaeological digs found many other civilizations uncovered who were idolaters that were destroyed by Allah. Did not Allah say that most of the civilizations that are gone now from the past used to be idolaters, and He brought our attention to that? Without the recent sciences and advances in research in human history, we would not have known this.
Reply

h-n
09-08-2013, 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Agreed. No Muslims should waste their time on reading up on useless claims, because we know what is falsehood.



Yes, we reject idol worship. But I don't see how this connects with learning about evolution.



Read on the basics of Islam? I know the basics. The basics tell me that I should learn about the universe and ponder over the signs of Allah.


These are 70 verses of the Qur'an that are focused on telling the believers to reflect over the various creations of Allah. Everything is included in these. Furthermore, there are verses which tells us to visit the habitations of the people of old. Archaeological digs found many other civilizations uncovered who were idolaters that were destroyed by Allah. Did not Allah say that most of the civilizations that are gone now from the past used to be idolaters, and He brought our attention to that? Without the recent sciences and advances in research in human history, we would not have known this.
As already stated Allah has talked of what he has provided to us to listen to him, heed his messages (EVEN THE VERSES STATE OF HOW THE WRONGDOERS REJECT HIS SIGNS ) that there is one God, the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell. That these are signs of Allah's mercy on providing us with the weather and the stars. People have already stated the burial places of Aad and Thamud to be in Yemen no matter how many dead bodies they are going to dig up-how do they know who they are going to belong to-it is only conjecture.

Even if you knew about hydrogens and heliums of what they say about stars etc, it doesn't change the fact that they are viewed as something created by Allah, people don't even fully understand the human body let alone the Universe. If that is your goal are you saying that you will fully understand the Universe before you die???


WHERE DOES IT STATE THAT ALLAH IS ASKING YOU TO FIND OUT HOW THE UNIVERSE WAS CREATED??? HE HAS CREATED IT AND AS ABOVE VERSES THAT IS ENOUGH OF HIS SIGNS. HE ISN'T ASKING ANYONE TO FIND OUT WHAT THE STARS ARE MADE FROM TO BETTER UNDERSTAND HIM, IF THAT WAS REQUIRED HE WOULD HAVE GIVEN THAT KNOWLEDGE A LONG TIME AGO. HOW WILL YOU BETTER UNDERSTAND ALLAH THEN THE COMPANIONS OF THE PROPHET (AS YOU SAY DID NOT HAVE SUCH AND SUCH INFORMATION-WHICH THE WRONGDOERS ARE HELPING YOU TO UNDERSTAND)????

WHERE DOES IT STATE THAT AFTER 1000 YEARS, SOME WRONGDOERS ARE GOING TO HELP YOU TO "RECOGNISE ALLAH MORE", AND THAT YOU NEED THEM TO UNDERSTAND THE QURAN, AS YOU PUT IT. HOW ARE YOU BETTER IN UNDERSTANDING GOD THEN ANYONE ELSE IN THE HISTORY OF THIS WORLD, HOW DOES THAT CHANGE KNOWING THAT JUPITER HAS SO MANY MOONS ETC.


You talk of evolution, knowing that its only heresay, and and that you state you have learnt more WHEN you even ASK for people on this forum to provide you with a basic texts of evolution in Islam -when if you are learnt in a subject you should have no trouble in talking about it, and nothing in the Quran speaks that we evolved. He created us as seperate beings.
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Ahmad H
09-08-2013, 08:32 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
You say that you wish to understand the words of Allah better and in order to do that you need to listen to what the wrongdoers are saying. This is were I'm laughing out loud.
I am not telling you to read conjecture. Science is not a religion. I am not telling you to read anything foolish. Evolution is not Atheism, if this is what you think. Evolution is a branch of the biological sciences, which deals with the study of life.

Originally Posted by h-n
It reminds me of some "Muslims" who try and say homosexuality is not a sin, they speak of Islam their way, and you claim about "interpreting"-there is no such thing in Islam as the message is clear and simple, the only one "interpreting is you with your opinions when again you don't have any facts and knowledge of the matter from God.
A whole bunch of scholars have mentioned scientific facts when they explained the Qur'an: Al-Ghazzali, Fakhruddin ar-Razi, Mufti Muhammad Shafi'i, Maulana Maududi, Sayyid Qutb, Muhammad Asad and Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

These are just the scholars I am mostly aware of. Who are you to talk of opinions here? You are rejecting a method of Tafsir which many scholars of Islam have adopted. None of this is contradictory to the classical Tafsir. I have not heard of you mentioning the opinion of a single scholar so far, just your own opinions on the Qur'an. It is fine for me to say what I say because I know what I'm talking about based upon scholarly analysis of the Qur'an. Even Imam Sirhindi (ra), one of the Mujaddids of Islam, used scientific knowledge to explain the Qur'an. He accepted this as well. He even mentioned how Ibn Arabi explained how there have been many Adams (as) in the past, and that Ibn Arabi saw his ancestor from 40000 years ago, circuiting the Ka'abah. If you don't believe me, read Imam Sirhindi's First Fascile of letters. It is available online. I am not making any of this up.

So where is your backing of your view? Are you going to call me one of the wrongdoers again as your defense and claim that the scholars of Islam, over ten of them ranging from multiple time periods, were all wrong and that you are right, some sister sitting on her computer calling herself a know-it-all? Stop being arrogant and go read up on science. The scholars of Islam have said that nature is not contradictory to the Word of Allah. What we find in nature is already explained in Allah's Book.

Originally Posted by h-n
You say that you wish to understand the words of Allah better and in order to do that you need to listen to what the wrongdoers are saying. This is were I'm laughing out loud.
Well, if you think that the scholars of Islam, who listened to these wrongdoers is wrong, then I don't know what is right. Were Muslim scientists wrong to learn about nature as well? You do know that some scholars of Islam in the past studied science, right? Ask yourself this question.
Reply

h-n
09-08-2013, 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
I am not telling you to read conjecture. Science is not a religion. I am not telling you to read anything foolish. Evolution is not Atheism, if this is what you think. Evolution is a branch of the biological sciences, which deals with the study of life.



A whole bunch of scholars have mentioned scientific facts when they explained the Qur'an: Al-Ghazzali, Fakhruddin ar-Razi, Mufti Muhammad Shafi'i, Maulana Maududi, Sayyid Qutb, Muhammad Asad and Abdullah Yusuf Ali.

These are just the scholars I am mostly aware of. Who are you to talk of opinions here? You are rejecting a method of Tafsir which many scholars of Islam have adopted. None of this is contradictory to the classical Tafsir. I have not heard of you mentioning the opinion of a single scholar so far, just your own opinions on the Qur'an. It is fine for me to say what I say because I know what I'm talking about based upon scholarly analysis of the Qur'an. Even Imam Sirhindi (ra), one of the Mujaddids of Islam, used scientific knowledge to explain the Qur'an. He accepted this as well. He even mentioned how Ibn Arabi explained how there have been many Adams (as) in the past, and that Ibn Arabi saw his ancestor from 40000 years ago, circuiting the Ka'abah. If you don't believe me, read Imam Sirhindi's First Fascile of letters. It is available online. I am not making any of this up.

So where is your backing of your view? Are you going to call me one of the wrongdoers again as your defense and claim that the scholars of Islam, over ten of them ranging from multiple time periods, were all wrong and that you are right, some sister sitting on her computer calling herself a know-it-all? Stop being arrogant and go read up on science. The scholars of Islam have said that nature is not contradictory to the Word of Allah. What we find in nature is already explained in Allah's Book.



Well, if you think that the scholars of Islam, who listened to these wrongdoers is wrong, then I don't know what is right. Were Muslim scientists wrong to learn about nature as well? You do know that some scholars of Islam in the past studied science, right? Ask yourself this question.
You keep talking of reading on science where they DON'T KNOW THEMSELVES. But your telling people to accept something that you don't understand either, then quote scholars, of course we deal with facts, this is what you are not doing!..

I will never join you in what you say, onto your way, and onto me mine. I refuse to join the foolish who say that people did not understand the Quran in the past and the wrongdoers are helping you to understand it.
Reply

Ahmad H
09-08-2013, 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
You talk of evolution, knowing that its only heresay, and and that you yourself have learnt more WHEN you even ASK for people on this forum to provide you with a basic texts of evolution in Islam
I was asking someone to provide texts or online articles for your sake. I know you don't have patience for this subject, so I wanted someone else to send a link so perhaps you could read it and learn about it. But you seem to be bent on hurling abuse at me instead.

I will go ahead and say this, that if you even reject how Islamic scholars look at the Qur'an using science, and still reject this way of understanding the Qur'an, then you are going off into the wrong direction. You should be humble and accept that they have used scientific evidence to understand the Qur'an as well.

Originally Posted by h-n
when if you are learnt in a subject you should have no trouble in talking about it, and nothing in the Quran speaks that we evolved. He created us as seperate beings.
Rather than taking up a huge amount of space here, I have an article which presents the same information I would have given you, except with greater evidence and is more comprehensive in using the Holy Qur'an:
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Islamic%2...0El-Najjar.htm

Two scholars who believe evolution is reconciled with the Qur'an are Jamal Ad-din Afghani and Ghulam Ahmed Parwez. Yes, there are many other scholars who may reject this view, but many of those scholars still use modern science to explain certain views in the Qur'an. That is undeniable.

Thus, there is more than enough evidence in the Qur'an which supports evolution.
Reply

h-n
09-08-2013, 08:51 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
I was asking someone to provide texts or online articles for your sake. I know you don't have patience for this subject, so I wanted someone else to send a link so perhaps you could read it and learn about it. But you seem to be bent on hurling abuse at me instead.

I will go ahead and say this, that if you even reject how Islamic scholars look at the Qur'an using science, and still reject this way of understanding the Qur'an, then you are going off into the wrong direction. You should be humble and accept that they have used scientific evidence to understand the Qur'an as well.



Rather than taking up a huge amount of space here, I have an article which presents the same information I would have given you, except with greater evidence and is more comprehensive in using the Holy Qur'an:
http://www.aljazeerah.info/Islamic E... El-Najjar.htm

Two scholars who believe evolution is reconciled with the Qur'an are Jamal Ad-din Afghani and Ghulam Ahmed Parwez. Yes, there are many other scholars who may reject this view, but many of those scholars still use modern science to explain certain views in the Qur'an. That is undeniable.

Thus, there is more than enough evidence in the Qur'an which supports evolution.
You mean you can't explain it, just repeating the same old saying so and so said this, and this. Your trying to defend something that you can't explain. :lol:


I don't accept evolution, just Allah fashioning creation, quote as many scholars as you like and stand together on the Day of Judgement, as I am not a party who stands with you!
Reply

Ahmad H
09-08-2013, 08:54 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
You keep talking of reading on science where they DON'T KNOW THEMSELVES. But your telling people to accept something that you don't understand either, then quote scholars, of course we deal with facts, this is what you are not doing!..

I will never join you in what you say, onto your way, and onto me mine. I refuse to join the foolish who say that people did not understand the Quran in the past and the wrongdoers are helping you to understand it.
When did I say I do not understand evolution? I have at least read about it and learned about it in school. I have studied Physics in university and completed a degree in it. So don't tell me what I know or don't know.

I never said that people in the past were wrong in their interpretation of the Qur'an. There you go again twisting my words.
Reply

Ahmad H
09-08-2013, 09:00 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
I don't accept evolution, just Allah fashioning creation, quote as many scholars as you like and stand together on the Day of Judgement, as I am not a party who stands with you!
I never told you to accept evolution. I told you to read up on it rather than falsify the theory itself based on opinions. My point is that you should learn it because there is no harm in learning it. It is not a religion or an Atheist's perspective on God. It is simply scientific information, just like you read up on the human body to understand medicine and how to take care of yourself.

And since you reject the scholars themselves, I guess you don't accept the earlier scholars either. You have no understanding of the methods of Tafsir. Using scientific knowledge is only going to be done based upon how the classical Tafsirs were done as well. This is in the realm of Ilm al-Diraya. You should read up on how Tafsir is done and you will understand why scholars did Tafsir this way.
Reply

Ahmad H
09-08-2013, 09:02 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
There is no such things as INTERPRETATION of the Quran, there is only one Message, you've already stated that people didn't fully understand the Quran in the past, and the wrongdoers have helped you to understand the Quran better.
So you reject Ibn Kathir's tafsir? Imam Tabari's Tafsir? Mujahid (ra)'s Tafsir? The Tafsir the Holy Prophet (saw) was given from Jibril (as)? Tafsir is "explanation". And yes, scholarly opinions are allowed, because they are based upon the classical sources. I already told you that science helps us to better understand them.

And WHEN DID I SAY I TOOK FROM THE WRONGDOERS? Muslims are scientists too. They learned about nature. Do you have no knowledge of your Islam's historical past?
Reply

h-n
09-08-2013, 09:03 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
I never told you to accept evolution. I told you to read up on it rather than falsify the theory itself based on opinions. My point is that you should learn it because there is no harm in learning it. It is not a religion or an Atheist's perspective on God. It is simply scientific information, just like you read up on the human body to understand medicine and how to take care of yourself.

And since you reject the scholars themselves, I guess you don't accept the earlier scholars either. You have no understanding of the methods of Tafsir. Using scientific knowledge is only going to be done based upon how the classical Tafsirs were done as well. This is in the realm of Ilm al-Diraya. You should read up on how Tafsir is done and you will understand why scholars did Tafsir this way.
You trying to use different examples, one is more of factual evidence of the human body and the other evolution is heresay- were the SCIENTISTS THEMSELVES DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND, but yet your quick to accept it and say that its as per the Quran and EVEN THOUGH THEY WILL NEVER KNOW AS ALLAH DID NOT PROVIDE THEM WITH THAT KNOWLEDGE. They can't go to heaven and start finding out were about earth was split from it. You can quote as many scholars as you like as what you have written is evidence that what you don't know what your talking about.
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facethetruth
09-08-2013, 09:11 PM
Brother and Sister pls lets stop this argument. When we say there is Evolution that transfer an organism from a species to another it is wrong scientifically and Haram. When we say evolution happen in the same species it is a fact and nothing wrong with it like what happened to bears in different areas from the world. It is as simple as that we can use this time with thikir or learning other beneficial materials. This is very clear and who ever wants to read more there is expelled no intelligence allowed and remember the Hadeth that the prophet prayers and peace be upon him said if someone leave and argument and knows that on truth I will grant him a house in heaven.
Reply

h-n
09-08-2013, 09:15 PM
Originally Posted by facethetruth
Brother and Sister pls lets stop this argument. When we say there is Evolution that transfer an organism from a species to another it is wrong scientifically and Haram. When we say evolution happen in the same species it is a fact and nothing wrong with it like what happened to bears in different areas from the world. It is as simple as that we can use this time with thikir or learning other beneficial materials. This is very clear and who ever wants to read more there is expelled no intelligence allowed and remember the Hadeth that the prophet prayers and peace be upon him said if someone leave and argument and knows that on truth I will grant him a house in heaven.
I have no problem with leaving the thread as it is.
Reply

Ahmad H
09-08-2013, 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by h-n
You trying to use different examples, one is more of factual evidence of the human body and the other evolution is heresay- were the SCIENTISTS THEMSELVES DON'T FULLY UNDERSTAND, but yet your quick to accept it and say that its as per the Quran and EVEN THOUGH THEY WILL NEVER KNOW AS ALLAH DID NOT PROVIDE THEM WITH THAT KNOWLEDGE. They can't go to heaven and start finding out were about earth was split from it. You can quote as many scholars as you like as what you have written is evidence that what you don't know what your talking about.
Science never claims to fully understand anything. My point is that what we read about evolution, DOES NOT CONTRADICT THE QURAN.

Of course scientists will never observe how we evolved. This is why their claim that Allah does not exist based on evolution is false, because they would have had to observe everything that happened to us in order to fully argue that. Thus, they cannot claim anything about Allah from it.

And of course scientists can never return to the origin of the Big Bang and observe how the universe itself began, they can only figure it out through theory and test it making smaller versions of it. This does not mean Allah did not endow us with any knowledge at all on it. I showed you that Allah requires us to reflect on His creation.

Scientists can know this by inference, not by observation. The Qur'an says:

21:30 Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

Allah calls attention to the Disbelievers here, who know from inference that the universe was one single unit and split apart. Allah already called their attention to this 1400 years ago. They still deny it. Even that Allah told them that life began from water. The disbelievers do not physically "see" this, but they see it through rationality. Allah tells them that this is proof that He exists, yet the Disbelievers use it to disprove His existence. This is why Allah says, "Will they not then believe?"
It is a rhetorical question. But we Muslims benefit from this.

So don't think for a second that the Qur'an does not support learning science. Even Nouman Ali Khan also looks at this verse this way. Are you going to reject the understanding of this verse because you think the Qur'an has no interpretation? The Holy Prophet (saw) learnt the interpretation of the Qur'an. This is what all Tafsirs have to base their knowledge off of.
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facethetruth
09-09-2013, 09:34 AM
Originally Posted by h-n
I have no problem with leaving the thread as it is.
Jazaki Allah khair, make it for the sake of Allah and get a house in heaven inshalah.
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facethetruth
09-09-2013, 09:38 AM
Brother why dont you watch "expelled no intelligence allowed" They have Biologists from top universities as I recall such Stanford, Harvard, Sorbonne, Prude and many others. The guy who made it is not even a Muslim, as a matter of fact he is a jew and used to be one of the presidents of the United States consultant, so it is pure science.
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Muhammad
09-09-2013, 04:32 PM
:salamext:

Please remember to discuss issues in a respectful and civilised manner. I'll close it here as the issue has been discussed many times in the past and seems to be causing arguments.

Here are some links on the topic which might be useful:

http://www.islam21c.com/theology/226...t-of-evolution
http://www.islam21c.com/theology/212...uman-evolution
Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective (Biological Evolution – An Islamic Perspective)
What is the Origin of Man? by Dr Maurice Bucaille
Evolution in Islam
Stumbling block: evolution, Adam and Eve, age of earth
Atheism's Opposition with Nature..
http://seemyparadigm.webs.com/evolution.htm - biological evolution, science in Qur'an, and other things to do with science
[pdf] Probabilities of randomly assembling a primitive cell on Earth
[pdf] THE MODERN THEORY OF EVOLUTION FROM THE VIEWPOINT OF STATISTICAL PHYSICS
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