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View Full Version : Fresh Attacks on Niqab in UK Government



Phoenix CG
09-16-2013, 01:31 PM
http://www.hearthijab.com/hijab-news...-uk-parliament
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Muhammad
09-16-2013, 02:36 PM
:salamext:

Interestingly, if you look at the poll results (half-way down) on the telegraph website, it shows 86% voting against the ban:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...ic-places.html


Related to this news is the recent decision to ban the Niqab at Birmingham Met College which was subsequently reversed:

The decision came after thousands signed a petition against the ban and just before a planned protest by hundreds of students due on Friday in Birmingham.

More than 9,000 people signed an online petition set up by NUS Black Students' Campaign calling on the college's principal, Dr Christine Braddock, to remove the ban.

Aaron Kiely, NUS Black Students' officer, said: ""This ban is a complete infringement on the rights to religious freedom and cultural expression and is a clear violation of a woman's right to choose."

He added: "We call on Birmingham Metropolitan College to reverse its decision and respect the fundamental rights of its diverse student population to freedom of thought, conscience, religion and cultural expression."
http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2...uturn-veil-ban

See also: http://www.islam21c.com/politics/123...ecurity-threat
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سيف الله
09-20-2013, 02:25 PM
Salaam

There is much hysteria in the British media at the moment about this issue. Just check out these headlines.

Teachers ‘forced to wear the veil’

Female teachers at state funded Muslim school ordered to cover heads with Islamic scarves during school hours, it is claimed.

Ministers mustn’t duck the debate on the veil

Telegraph View: Politicians must stop leaving it to school uniform codes, or judges, or hospital health and safety standards, to prevent the niqab being worn inappropriately

Burkas cast a veil over us all – so ban them

Cultural values that oppress and diminish women have no place in our society, argues Allison Pearson

Muslim woman must remove niqab while giving evidence, judge rules

A judge has ordered a Muslim woman who insisted on wearing a face veil in court to remove it while giving evidence.

Should veils be lifted in schools?

Students at Birmingham Metropolitan College, which has revoked an eight-year ban on niqabs and burkas, are divided

Nick Clegg could support ban on veils in classrooms

Nick Clegg has suggested that he could back a ban on full-face Muslim veils in the classroom, but distanced himself from calls for them to be outlawed in all public places

Veil debate should be 'wake-up call for feminism'

Politicians need to set clear national guidance on where women should be allowed to wear veils, says Sarah Wollaston MP.

'Ban Muslims from wearing veils in schools and public places'

Britain should consider banning Muslim girls and young women from wearing veils in schools and public places, a Home Office minister has said.

Is it a human right to wear a veil in court?

A senior judge will come under pressure on Monday not to set a “dangerous” legal precedent by allowing a Muslim defendant to wear a full veil in a criminal trial.

Civilised society must not draw a veil over the niqab

We should not tolerate the niqab in our public institutions, since it demeans both women and men

David Cameron would support a ban on Muslim veils at his children's school

David Cameron would support a ban on Muslim veils at a school attended by one of his children, Downing Street has said, as a prominent bishop called for religious face coverings to be outlawed in the classroom.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/

Must be a slow news day, but I guess its good red meat for the usual assortment, ranging from secular liberals to Daily Mail readers.
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observer
09-20-2013, 03:14 PM
It's an interesting one, and I don't personally see that it's the government's job to dictate dress codes in your private life.

In examples such as the woman who wanted to be covered in court - I agree that she shouldn't be allowed to.

It is, though, necessary to accept that there are large numbers of muslim women who are coerced into wearing the niqab. I have had many, many female muslim students who have said that they would rather not cover themselves, especially when studying in the UK, but that the attitude of male, muslim students in the school (not usually their fathers interestingly) meant that they had to cover. That's pretty sad. Especially when those same male students are happy to walk around in their shorts and t-shirts with their Ray-ban sunglasses.

A woman's right to choose to wear niqab should be as strong as her right to choose not to.

As an aside, those muslims who denounce women who dress in a "western" (for want of a better word) style as *****s or of loose morals need to recognise that their demands that those women should be covered are every bit as unfair as the demand that muslim women shouldn't cover. Choice works both ways.
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Muhammad
09-21-2013, 01:46 PM
Greetings observer,

In examples such as the woman who wanted to be covered in court - I agree that she shouldn't be allowed to.
I came across this interesting article which concludes, 'let’s not pretend that banning the veil in court will lead to better justice', after the writer researched the topic of lie detection. If such is the case, I don't see what the problem is in allowing women to remain veiled, at least for most parts of the trial.

It is, though, necessary to accept that there are large numbers of muslim women who are coerced into wearing the niqab. I have had many, many female muslim students who have said that they would rather not cover themselves, especially when studying in the UK, but that the attitude of male, muslim students in the school (not usually their fathers interestingly) meant that they had to cover. That's pretty sad. Especially when those same male students are happy to walk around in their shorts and t-shirts with their Ray-ban sunglasses.
By the same token, it is necessary to accept that large, if not larger, numbers of Muslim women wear the Niqab gladly out of their own choice. It is unusual though, that the female students you mention are being coerced into wearing Niqab (face-veil) - perhaps you meant covering themselves as in wearing the Burqa/headscarf. But it's also strange that the female students would be coerced by an attitude of male students; students are usually in no position to enforce a code of dress on any other.


The following are a few relevant snippets from articles on this point:



[Misconception #] 7. Banning the niqab will free those Muslim women who are coerced into wearing it.
Banning the face-veil would be totally counter-productive: it would cause many Muslim women to feel targeted and persecuted and is likely to cause many talented women to withdraw from society. The majority of niqab-wearing women in Europe, wear it out of personal choice, so if, for the sake of a suspected minority, the niqab was to be banned, this would be clear discrimination against the majority. If we want to empower women from any community who are oppressed or abused, effective public services where such abuse can be reported need to be made more available and accessible to the women involved.

Fatima Barkatulla, The Niqab, Fact V Fiction, Article originally published in the Times Online..



2. The idea that banning the niqab is required for women’s liberation is patronising to those who choose to wear it. The idea that all such women are forced to wear the niqab is delusional. Many community leaders will know of examples of Muslim women who are ostracised by their families for taking up the dress. In fact far more than the few who may be forced. When the facts disagree with ones ideological bigotry, it is often tempting to ignore the facts and create fiction, cue the Tory party.

Adam Beloan, 10 Reasons Why The Niqab Does Have a Place in Modern Britain





...What is frustrating to many Muslims is that over and over again Muslim women have spoken out claiming that what they wear is out of their own choice and a deep sense of spirituality. Yet the media and prominent figures in the West continue to ignore these voices and imply that only ‘they’ truly know what is going on inside Muslim women’s head, something which even the Muslim women – subjugated as they are – are not privy to. This obscene hypocrisy highlights the continuing Orientalism that still operates in the West when it comes to its discourse on Islam.

From a Muslim perspective (although many non-Muslims agree), the tyranny of fashion shows, billboards with air-brushed pictures, the use of scantily clad bodies to sell consumer products is a form of subjugation for Western women, who, if not dominated by men are certainly dominated by the demands and dictates of the market.

How, at any rate, is one to decide whether someone is subjugated or not? Banning a religious practice in a society where no Muslim is demanding its imposition seems more a fundamentalist move than a liberal one, but then perhaps that is exactly what we are witnessing: the fundamentalising of liberalism. What’s more is that Muslim ought not to feel cowed by media pressure or hawkish tactics by commentators who merely claim that such Islamic dress codes are oppressive – the onus of proving this, after all, lies with them and not with Muslims.

For our part we have firsthand accounts of women who have donned the burqa/hijab/niqab who repeatedly pronounce their individuality and choice as well as the fact that the majority of women who seem to be adopting the burqa are Western educated women all born and brought up in countries like France and Britain many a time at odds with their mothers from the East. So, is the Burqa an Eastern or Western phenomena?!

Shaikh Haitham al-Haddad, Discussing the 'Symbol of Subjugation'.
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observer
09-23-2013, 09:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
By the same token, it is necessary to accept that large, if not larger, numbers of Muslim women wear the Niqab gladly out of their own choice. It is unusual though, that the female students you mention are being coerced into wearing Niqab (face-veil) - perhaps you meant covering themselves as in wearing the Burqa/headscarf. But it's also strange that the female students would be coerced by an attitude of male students; students are usually in no position to enforce a code of dress on any other.
I'm just referring to the niqab here (the veil); I've had very few students who have said that they wanted to be able to remove their headscarves.

I totally agree with you that many women want to wear the niqab - but neither side should kid themselves that all women choose to wear the niqab nor that all women are forced to wear the niqab - this is why I say that choice works both ways.

Students, of course, cannot enforce a dress code. But as was explained to me, if a large group of male students from the woman's community tell them that the way they are dressing is unislamic, that they are bringing shame on themselves and the family by not wearing the niqab then many of the female students (especially those who are unmarried) will acquiesce.

The worst treatment I have ever seen was of a couple of Saudi women who choose to cover neither their face nor their hair whilst in England. They were completely ostracized by the other muslim students (some of the girls who tried to be friendly with them said that the male students had told them not to talk to these two as they would bring shame on themselves by doing so). It was pretty sad to see.

So yes, I believe choice is important, but it works both ways. A woman who chooses to wear the niqab needs to be respected as much as a woman who chooses no to.
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tearose
09-23-2013, 11:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
But as was explained to me, if a large group of male students from the woman's community tell them that the way they are dressing is unislamic, that they are bringing shame on themselves and the family by not wearing the niqab then many of the female students (especially those who are unmarried) will acquiesce.
The worst treatment I have ever seen was of a couple of Saudi women who choose to cover neither their face nor their hair whilst in England. They were completely ostracized by the other muslim students (some of the girls who tried to be friendly with them said that the male students had told them not to talk to these two as they would bring shame on themselves by doing so). It was pretty sad to see.
Greetings, Are you sure you have been correctly informed about the situation? In most Muslim communities I have been in it would be very unusual for so much conversing to go on between male and female students, and also very unusual for there to be such a split of opinion between male and female students.
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observer
09-23-2013, 12:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by tearose
Greetings, Are you sure you have been correctly informed about the situation? In most Muslim communities I have been in it would be very unusual for so much conversing to go on between male and female students, and also very unusual for there to be such a split of opinion between male and female students.

Outside the classroom there wasn't much mixing, but in mixed classes where you're learning a language, you have to speak to one another, and when you have a class full of muslim students it's natural that they talk about things relating to them. Hence they learnt (hopefully!) a lot of English and I learnt a lot about them and their culture. In classes where there were only males or only females on any certain day, I learnt a lot more than when classes were mixed!

I think that most of the students had a very down-to-earth, pragmatic approach - they were studying in England, a non-muslim country, so it was inevitable that mixing was going to happen and it never seemed to cause a problem.
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tearose
09-23-2013, 01:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
many female muslim students who have said that they would rather not cover themselves, especially when studying in the UK, but that the attitude of male, muslim students in the school (not usually their fathers interestingly) meant that they had to cover
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
as was explained to me, if a large group of male students from the woman's community tell them that the way they are dressing is unislamic
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
some of the girls who tried to be friendly with them said that the male students had told them not to talk to these two as they would bring shame on themselves by doing so
The way all of these are worded implies that the male students said these things outside of the classroom and then the female students told you about it in the classroom afterwards (which in itself seems quite unlikely en masse). I'm not saying none of it happened, but I don't think we can draw any real conclusions from a few accounts of what you say some people said to you about what others said to them.
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observer
09-23-2013, 01:04 PM
^^^ You can take what you want from it, I had no reason to doubt them.
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سيف الله
09-23-2013, 01:32 PM
Salaam

A video debate on the Niqaab issue

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Ahmad H
09-23-2013, 03:53 PM
It's really quite silly, if you think about it. As a Muslim, it looks like a ridiculous debate. I mean, Muslim women are wearing Niqab because they are following this law in Islam willingly from the depths of their hearts, and the other side is saying, "No! You are actually being forced into it. You just don't know. But we know. We know what's going on with you better than you do." That sums up the debate.

Here in Canada, Quebec is trying to pass a law against it as well. They are French too. Coincidence? I think not. It might be some cultural mentality of theirs. The debate in Canada is more comprehensive though, being aimed at ALL religious symbols. Thus, Christians, Sikhs, Jews, Muslims, etc., everyone is involved in this one. It is only limited to Public service, but they seem to think Niqab is a "religious symbol", while it is not a symbol, but the wearing of it is Wajib in Islam.

All in all, secularist ideals about this are that wearing Niqab is purely a choice, even within Islam. None of them seem to understand that this is NOT a choice in Islam. Anyone who enters into Islam understands this and knows it is part of the Islamic law. Perhaps once we Muslims clear this little misunderstanding with secularists, then they will finally change their tones. Either they are completely ignoring this, despite their knowledge of it (very likely), or they do not know about it (also likely). Anyone else see this pattern here?
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Muhammad
09-23-2013, 04:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
I totally agree with you that many women want to wear the niqab - but neither side should kid themselves that all women choose to wear the niqab nor that all women are forced to wear the niqab - this is why I say that choice works both ways.
The main issue, though, is that banning the veil outright is not the solution and, in fact, may make matters much worse. It certainly will not be respecting the notion of choice working both ways.
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observer
09-23-2013, 05:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
The main issue, though, is that banning the veil outright is not the solution and, in fact, may make matters much worse. It certainly will not be respecting the notion of choice working both ways.
I totally agree, which is why I said that your private choice of clothes should be your own and not for a government to decide.
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ardianto
09-24-2013, 01:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by observer
In examples such as the woman who wanted to be covered in court - I agree that she shouldn't be allowed to.
In Indonesia, wearing niqab (face-veil) in court is allowed. Face is not the only identity. Fingerprint can be an identity too.

But there is a unique phenomenon in indonesia, "the sudden niqabi".

In last few years Indonesian govt is very active in fight corruption. many suspect of corruption have been arrested including a number of women. But there are few of those women who previously didn't wear niqab or even didn't wear hijab, suddenly wear niqab after they got arrested and appear in the court with face-veil!.

I hope it because they have repented their mistake, not just to gain sympathy.
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Pygoscelis
09-24-2013, 09:18 PM
I, an atheist, and somewhat anti-religious person, am pretty much 100% behind the muslimas on this. It should not matter why she wants to cover her face. She should be allowed to wear whatever she wants, absent valid security concerns. The bans targeted at Niqab are unjust, unfair, and should be insulting to us all. And religion doesn't have to come into it. I should be allowed to wear a baseball cap wherever I want to as well.

A bit of irony though is that these women who wear niqab probably wouldn't support the opposite extreme in wanting to wear what they want, such as bikinis or nothing at all. I think you'll often find that the muslima and the nudist seek the same freedom (to wear what they wish) but also seek to repress it from each other.
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Pygoscelis
09-24-2013, 09:35 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
In Indonesia, wearing niqab (face-veil) in court is allowed. Face is not the only identity. Fingerprint can be an identity too.
I don't think in the west the need to see the face in court is so much about identity. Yes, you can verify identity in other ways. I think it is more about the accused being entitled to face his accuser. I think it also has to do with the perception of a jury assessing credibility of a witness. You are less likely to trust what somebody is saying if they are wearing a mask and you can't see their face.

format_quote Originally Posted by observer
As an aside, those muslims who denounce women who dress in a "western" (for want of a better word) style as *****s or of loose morals need to recognise that their demands that those women should be covered are every bit as unfair as the demand that muslim women shouldn't cover. Choice works both ways.
This is a good point.

A muslim who pushes against burka bans but pushes for bans on bikinis is being quite hypocritical. If you support the right of a woman to wear what she wants (if anything at all) then you should be consistent in that.
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ardianto
09-27-2013, 11:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I should be allowed to wear a baseball cap wherever I want to as well.
You cannot equalize niqab and baseball cap because what someone wear will build the image on him/her according to common image in a place regarding to it.

If a man wear baseball cap, in many places people will see him as a "casual guy". If a man wear cowboy hat, in many places people will thinking that he is a country music lover. But if a woman wear niqab?. In Saudi people will not care on her, in Indonesia people will thinking that she is a very conservative Muslim. In the West?. People will see her as an extremist.

The cause why people in the West hard to accept Muslim women wearing niqab is the image of niqab that regarded as symbol of extremism. This is conclusion that I take after I read a number of comments about niqab that written by non-Muslim people in the West.

So, if Muslims in the West want niqab can be accepted by public, at first they must able to eliminate the negative image of niqab as a symbol of extremism.
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Ahmad H
09-27-2013, 08:45 PM
Yeah, the West worked on making the Niqab seem like a symbol of oppression for many years. The people of the West have been brainwashed into thinking that a ban on Niqab is good. This is why negative images in media are so seriously wrong. People here who don't know a thing about Islam are feed the wrong image of it. This is why more Muslims need to speak about the true teachings of Islam.
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Muhammad
09-28-2013, 10:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
A muslim who pushes against burka bans but pushes for bans on bikinis is being quite hypocritical. If you support the right of a woman to wear what she wants (if anything at all) then you should be consistent in that.
We haven't got to this stage yet. Let's first focus on the present hypocrisy of those who claim to allow freedom of expression whilst considering banning the Niqab. Moreover, clothing that has a religious significance tends to be regarded differently than other clothing, hence it is commonly exempt where other things might not be permitted. So the reasoning, purpose and impact of Niqab is totally different to something like a bikini, and it makes sense to regard them separately.
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Pygoscelis
09-30-2013, 04:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
We haven't got to this stage yet. Let's first focus on the present hypocrisy of those who claim to allow freedom of expression whilst considering banning the Niqab.
I agree. That too is hypocritical.

Moreover, clothing that has a religious significance tends to be regarded differently than other clothing, hence it is commonly exempt where other things might not be permitted. So the reasoning, purpose and impact of Niqab is totally different to something like a bikini, and it makes sense to regard them separately.
Only if you want to give special treatment to religion, which is something I strongly oppose in secular society. We should neither target religious garments as especially improper (as they appear to be doing) or allow them where such coverings would not otherwise be allowed (ie, driver's license photos).
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Pygoscelis
09-30-2013, 04:59 AM
What people need to do is stop accepting what media tells them and go talk to actual muslims. That's what bought me here originally, following 9/11. I have found about half of the media based preconceptions to be flatly wrong.

Yes, the niqab is a powerful image to western eyes. Even without the religious aspects of it, a person covering their face is going to make some people uneasy. Add to that the religious trappings of a distant religion the media tells you is violent and volatile, and back that up with news stories about terrorists and riots over cartoons of all things, while not receiving any news or contact with peaceful and rational muslims, and it isn't surprising how people react. Its a serious PR problem.

Even after interacting with you folks on here for years, I still feel uneasy around women in niqab. I avoid them if I can and only talk to them if I must, and I tend to think they appreciate that as much as I do. To me they project an image not of violence or repression, but of hyper sensitive religiousity, and I figure if I speak to them I will probably say something they will be offended by. I think a lot of liberals like myself feel that way, which in itself is a bit of a problem, but not on the same level as the "burn a quran" conservative christian types.
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Ahmad H
09-30-2013, 05:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Even after interacting with you folks on here for years, I still feel uneasy around women in niqab. I avoid them if I can and only talk to them if I must, and I tend to think they appreciate that as much as I do. To me they project an image not of violence or repression, but of hyper sensitive religiousity, and I figure if I speak to them I will probably say something they will be offended by. I think a lot of liberals like myself feel that way, which in itself is a bit of a problem, but not on the same level as the "burn a quran" conservative christian types.
I'm Muslim and I avoid women in Niqabs also. Yes, there is definitely a hyper sensitivity issue that you will find with women who wear Niqab. Not all of them, but most, yes. This is the same reason I completely avoid them and resist talking to them when I can just because I feel they become uneasy. So I know what you mean.

On the other hand, women without Niqab make me uneasy too. That's to be expected though, considering Muslim males are to avoid women as much as is possible.
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Muhammad
09-30-2013, 01:37 PM
I've moved the discussion posts from the other thread into here so it's easier to keep track.


format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Only if you want to give special treatment to religion, which is something I strongly oppose in secular society. We should neither target religious garments as especially improper (as they appear to be doing) or allow them where such coverings would not otherwise be allowed (ie, driver's license photos).
It doesn't have to be seen as special treatment; it is simply an acknowledgement of people's beliefs. 'Society' can choose to be understanding, diverse and find ways to work around issues, or it can become increasingly intolerant and rigid to the point that it loses neutrality. Ultimately, we hold very different views about the purpose and meaning of life, hence it is expected that we disagree over what should and should not be acceptable in society.

Even after interacting with you folks on here for years, I still feel uneasy around women in niqab. I avoid them if I can and only talk to them if I must, and I tend to think they appreciate that as much as I do. To me they project an image not of violence or repression, but of hyper sensitive religiousity, and I figure if I speak to them I will probably say something they will be offended by.
Perhaps the unease is more a case of being faced with something you are not accustomed to. Allaah :swt: has taught believing men and women to lower their gaze, guard their chastity and maintain modesty. Amongst Muslims, it is normal to avoid approaching women unnecessarily. In western culture, this is something becoming increasingly alien, and Muslim women perhaps feel equally uneasy when in the presence of male strangers with whom they are expected to mingle with, not to mention the stares and impolite reactions that they face on a daily basis. But the notion that they are 'hypersensitive' (I assume this means they are more likely to be offended) is perhaps a stereotype. Those wearing the Niqab are just as diverse as the rest of society and as such, will consist of so many different personalities, backgrounds, levels of faith, education and types of occupation. One cannot judge or expect the same reaction or likelihood of being offended from them just because they have chosen to put on a veil. You can find women wearing Niqab who are very vocal, participating in public debates and lectures, and many often welcome the chance to explain their beliefs to others.
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Pygoscelis
10-05-2013, 02:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
It doesn't have to be seen as special treatment; it is simply an acknowledgement of people's beliefs. 'Society' can choose to be understanding, diverse and find ways to work around issues, or it can become increasingly intolerant and rigid to the point that it loses neutrality. Ultimately, we hold very different views about the purpose and meaning of life, hence it is expected that we disagree over what should and should not be acceptable in society.
All I ask is that we be treated equally and that you get no special treatment, for good or for bad, because of a belief you hold. It doesn't matter to me WHY you want to do X. If there is no good reason to outlaw X, then you should be allowed to. And if you can do X and your doing X doesn't benefit all of us more than me doing X, then we should both be allowed to do X. If you can cover your face, then I should be allowed to as well. And if there is no good reason to stop me from covering my face, then you shouldn't be stopped from doing so. Its pretty simple.
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ILuvAllah
10-05-2013, 03:05 PM
Oh thank God I'm leaving UK soon insha Allah. I would never consider living in a non muslim nation anymore.
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Taabuu
10-09-2013, 09:43 AM
I personally dont seem to understand why people claim that the Muslim women are being "forced" and "oppressed" to cover their bodies, while a Christian nun is considered "pure" and "pious". If you look at the way a Muslimah covers her body and a Nun covers her body it is the SAME. Every part of the Muslimah's body and the nun body is covered maybe not in the same manner but those parts being the hair, neck, arms, legs,etc. they are covered.





So why isn't the Nun looked at as being oppressed? And why is the Muslimah not looked at as being pious and true to Islam?
It doesnt make sense and look at the Christain's imagery of the Virgin Mary (Maryam)


does she not wear hijab?
I just dont understand nuns and Muslimah both cover so if you are saying that a Muslimah is oppressed because she follows her religion and covers her body then it is only fair that you say a Christian nun is also oppressed because she too is following her religion and covering her body....right?

I am not attacking Christanity I just want people to look and understand that the Nun's and the Muslimah's attire are basically the same. Just because one is Christian and the other Muslim isnt a excuse because both are covered in the same manner and both are following their religion.
With that being said why in society is the Muslimah looked at as oppressed while the Nun isnt? Does that make sense?
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Independent
10-09-2013, 12:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Taabuu
I am not attacking Christanity I just want people to look and understand that the Nun's and the Muslimah's attire are basically the same. Just because one is Christian and the other Muslim isnt a excuse because both are covered in the same manner and both are following their religion.
The key difference is that nuns are a small group of women who have individually committed themselves to God and who live in seclusion, thereby renouncing marriage and the world in general. Taking the veil is a minor part of this broader commitment. There is no pressure on women in general to take the veil, not least because nuns are not seen very much on the streets.

Whereas the niquab is proposed for women in general. Because of this, with the niquab the issue arises of whether women feel pressurised by their society either to cover up or not cover up. It seems to me that in different societies women are pressured both ways - sometimes to cover up, sometimes not.
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ardianto
10-09-2013, 02:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Taabuu
I personally dont seem to understand why people claim that the Muslim women are being "forced" and "oppressed" to cover their bodies,
I am not sure if non-Muslim in Indonesia think that wearing hijab (headscarves) is coercion because they can see by themselves that Ulama in Indonesia do not implement "coerce policy" but "motivation policy".

It's based on simple thought, if a woman is coerced to were hijab, she would wear it, but when she get a chance she will remove her hijab. If a woman is motivated, then she wear hijab with her own conciousness and would not remove it.

This is the secret why hijab is popular in Indonesia now, different than in 70's and 80's.

My wife need few years to decide to wear hijab with several consultation with me just to ask did she still look beautiful if she wear hijab?. She was motivated because women among her started to wear hijab, one by one.

But with different culture, maybe different mindset.

I understand if people in the West think that wear hijab is coercion. In this forum I've read post from a student which he saw a female student who came to school wore hijab, but then removed it when her father gone. And read post #6 by Observer, first paragraph.
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سيف الله
10-09-2013, 07:19 PM
Salaam

An update. Another response to the issue.

Shohana Khan’s letter to Sarah Wollaston MP regarding her article on a veil ban

Dear Ms Wollaston,

I write in response to your comment in the Telegraph newspaper dated 15th September 2013, entitled, “Veil debate should be a wake-up call for feminism”.

You make some key claims about the veil, which I felt deserved a little bit of discussion – to highlight that there is more to the other side than ‘nonsense‘, as you claim.

Women are forced to wear it

There is no campaign group of closet ex-veil Muslims, no Facebook page trying to raise awareness of an epidemic of coercive veiling. It’s quite simple - scores of young veil wearing Muslim women, like the ones who had the ban overturned due to the pressure they put on the Birmingham college, wear it out of their own accord. Apart from the fact that not all girls start wearing it at 13 anyway, it is strange that this discussion is not had about straightened hair, makeup or the length of the school skirt, or how across secondary schools in the UK today, 13-year-olds are adopting the ‘beauty ideal’ because they feel they have to. That is if we really want to talk about coercion in how girls dress.

The veil takes away a woman’s equality

As you claim, the fact that a veil wearing woman dresses differently to how men dress, means she is repressed. So the question we must ask is, if a woman dresses differently to a man, does this mean repression?

The fact that dresses, skirts and ladies handbags are not the usual content of a male wardrobe I’m sure does not ring alarm bells for yourself. Difference in dress code between men and women is accepted and does not alert to women being seen as chained to a life of repression. So why would this apply to the dress code of a different community?

The veil inhibits communication

For those who advocate that anyone wearing the veil cannot be communicated with properly, I would imagine would also uphold a total ban of all type of social media, email correspondence or phone communication because these very normal forms of communication that we use today rely on our ability to communicate without seeing the others’ face.

Interaction and community cohesion if one thing we have learnt, is not built by whether you see someone’s face or not, but whether you uphold respect, kindness and good neighbourly qualities in your actions with the wider community. Community tensions exist across the UK, but can the veil honestly be put down as the cause of any of them? As for the issue about identity and security – There is no real conundrum here, Muslim women can meet these needs in a female environment.

The veil makes a woman ‘out of sight’

If we mean women’s physical bodies and faces are ‘out of sight’, then yes there is not any dispute about that. But the bigger question is, is that all we really mean and are concerned about, with regards to the presence of women in society? As that would be very worrying.

The feminist struggle you evoked in the beginning of your comment, from the onset was set upon moving away from the view of women as physical prizes and possessions to the real participation of women in public life. Veil wearing women would fiercely argue that the veil has actually stopped society short from judging them by the way they look, over what they think; enabling them to participate more fully in society.
The truth is, that although Western politicians across Europe have like dominoes one after the other, felt it necessary to come to the saviour of veil wearing Muslim women, Muslim women have not let out any cry demanding they be saved.

However, we know there is a cry – a growing one across Western societies of people who have begun to view Muslims and their values as threateningly averse to the secular liberal norm, even though they are not the only community with ‘different’ practices. We can all sit back and ponder upon how and from where, this cry is being fed and fuelled.

Finally, your concern about the need for a wake-up call for women, I would say is not at all incorrect. A wake up call about the real coercive idea in society which is robbing women of being valued for their mind and their abilities, robbing them of their self-esteem and self-worth, robbing them of real choice about what they want to be, is more than needed. This idea is the corrosive beauty image perpetuated through the media, entertainment, beauty industries that has been proved as plaguing the lives of young women today. Although how you look is perceived to be a choice a woman makes, the very specific image of beauty plastered across magazines, billboards and TV today has built a standard that women young and old, all must aspire to and are measured against.

Campaigners insist that the looking beautiful is ‘empowering’ for women. Only in the same way perhaps as an invisibility cloak over your mind, but if that is the case why is it not worn by men? Such nonsense hides the reality that in cultures where it is not a choice but a compulsion, women have no meaningful power whatever.
We must be bold in resisting those who would allow the beauty image to masquerade as personal freedom. In my opinion, to allow it in our schools harms women by colluding with a view that they should be only physically in sight; that attitude has no place in an open modern society.

Before I end, I confess to borrowing the two paragraphs above from your own piece on the veil that I am responding to. Because to be fair I felt most the points you made about the struggle of women were relevant – you just chose the wrong focus.

It is the idea which last year caused the number of hospital admissions for anorexia to rise by 16%, and the year before this included nearly a hundred five to seven year olds worried about the way they looked, which needs urgent attention. It is this attitude and view, which women are crying out about and want liberating from. It is this attitude and view, not the small piece of cloth a tiny minority of women in the UK wear, which in a society that seeks to liberate women, should have no place at all.

Yours sincerely,

Shohana Khan

Women’s Media Representative
Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain

http://www.hizb.org.uk/current-affairs/shohana-khans-letter-to-sarah-wallaston-mp-regarding-her-article-on-a-veil-ban
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Muhammad
10-09-2013, 10:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Because of this, with the niquab the issue arises of whether women feel pressurised by their society either to cover up or not cover up. It seems to me that in different societies women are pressured both ways - sometimes to cover up, sometimes not.
Do you think it's right for others to be assuming what pressures Muslim women are facing?
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Independent
10-09-2013, 11:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Do you think it's right for others to be assuming what pressures Muslim women are facing?
Some women say this for themselves directly, I have no reason to disbelieve them. And on the other hand many others say they like it, and i don't disbelieve them either. I don't think i am making an unfair assumption in either direction. Why would I refuse to believe one group but not the other?

Edit: Re-reading your post, perhaps you mean some of the critics in the media, not me in particular. If so, then i would sometimes agree with you that they overstep the mark. It is difficult for the average western country to understand the motivations behind this choice of dress, although awareness is of course on the increase. Personally, so long as there is genuinely no duress either way, I don't mind what people do.
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Muhammad
10-11-2013, 02:11 PM
Greetings,

I meant in general, referring to anyone other than the Muslim women themselves. Many people (in the newspapers/internet/interviews etc.) are making comments and assumptions about the veil or Hijab as if they know more than the people who actually wear it. Yes it's true that some women have said/indicated they are forced to wear it, but it doesn't mean a ban is required. Women may be coerced to do a lot of things, yet a ban does not seem to be suggested for anything else. Going back to the comparison with nuns, even in the case where a Muslim woman declares she is wearing the veil out of her own choice and happiness, people raise objections that she is extreme, creating a barrier, etc.


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Pygoscelis
10-11-2013, 04:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Going back to the comparison with nuns, even in the case where a Muslim woman declares she is wearing the veil out of her own choice and happiness, people raise objections that she is extreme, creating a barrier, etc.
She is creating a barrier. Literally.
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Muhammad
10-11-2013, 04:36 PM
Yes, one could say it is a barrier that wards off evil. But those in the opposition are coming from a different perspective. I was saying that people will find other reasons to object. If nuns are respected for their 'barrier', why not Muslim women?
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ardianto
10-11-2013, 04:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
She is creating a barrier. Literally.
She is creating a barrier for herself, not for you. Then, what's your problem? you can still interact with other people.

I understand what you feel. I always smile and greet my customers, males and females. However, I felt hesitate to greet a niqabi who came to my office because I worried I would be regarded as 'indecent'. But, what's the problem? there are many other customers who I can greet.

But actually the niqabis are not always 'rigid' and religiously sensitive. I have a niqabi friend who was my classmate in school. When the first time I meet her again after she wear niqab I felt hesitate to greet her. But then she greeted me. Now sometime I meet her and usually we talk friendly as two old friends.
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Independent
10-11-2013, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Going back to the comparison with nuns, even in the case where a Muslim woman declares she is wearing the veil out of her own choice and happiness, people raise objections that she is extreme, creating a barrier, etc
Again, apart from this superficial similarity in pictures, i really don't think the nun comparison is very strong. Nuns represent a truly tiny percentage of the population. Depending on where you live, you could go through your whole life and never meet one. So they exert no social pressure to conform whatsoever. On the contrary, their life choice can sometimes be challenged by the lay population and (in many cases) their families would oppose their choice.

What's more, there is a kind of 'equality' with their male equivalent - monks. Both have renounced worldy goods and marriage, both wear gowns, and both have hood-like headgear although monks don't necessarily wear them up all the time.

There are things you can criticise about western attitudes to the niquab, but this isn't it. If anything, in some quarters nuns may experience a similar prejudice.
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faithandpeace
10-12-2013, 02:43 AM
Assalamu alaikum.

What some non-Muslims and even Muslims do not understand is that Islam is not simply a religion that "you do" once a week in a closed-door building. It is a way of life that encompasses all aspects of both public and private life. I know very well what the anti-niqab and anti-hijab agendas are about. The agenda is not about protecting women as they would want you to believe but about fostering an environment and culture where women do not have a right to privacy.

Hijab is not a choice according to Islam. It is required in any place where marriage-eligible men can see women. It is a choice whether a Muslim woman wants to obey Allah (swt) and wear hijab or whether she disobeys Allah (swt) by not wearing it. She then has the choice to repent for her sins and make the proper intention to wear hijab in the future and ask Allah (swt) for help at fulfilling this requirement.

Niqab is an area of some debate among the scholars whether it is required in the same way that hijab is required or whether it is simply recommended but not required or whether it is required in certain circumstances such as to avoid unwanted attention from men that is already occurring or is about to occur. Again, it is a choice whether a woman wants to wear niqab to obey the command of Allah (swt) or to please Allah (swt) with a voluntary act of extra worship for something not seen as required but something that would please Allah (swt) or to not wear it for whatever valid or invalid reasons she has as a Muslim.

That being said, men do not have a "right" to see women's faces. Men do not have a "right" to see women's hair and neck. Men do not have a "right" to see women's shoulders, arms, and legs. Men do not have a "right" to see the rest of a woman's body. The same cultures and nations that often promote the phony notion of "freedom" are often the same cultures and nations that work overtime to take women's freedom away when it comes to personal privacy. Women in western nations and cultures are often rewarded with various opportunities based on how much of their bodies they publicize and how strongly they thrust themselves into public attention. It is not a secret that women wearing more makeup, sexier clothes, and high heels are given more opportunity in a large portion of American workplace environments.

But perhaps that is a whole other topic. It really is simple. You as a man do not get to see what I choose not to show you. You are not even entitled to see my face or even my own eyes if I don't want to show them to you. You do not have a right to see me at all. Period. I have a right to my personal privacy away from your prying eyes. This anti-niqab and anti-hijab cultural agenda is designed to remove women's privacy by forcing social interactions on women that are not on her terms. If a niqab-wearing woman wants to socially interact then she will do so at her discretion but she is not required to interact if she does not want to. If a woman cannot be left alone in a public place then that is not "freedom." Note how the same nations and cultures that are trying to ban women from covering their eyes, faces, heads, and necks are the same cultures promoting "unisex" bathrooms in which men and women have to do their business in the same washroom right next to each other.
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Independent
10-12-2013, 10:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by faithandpeace
What some non-Muslims and even Muslims do not understand is that Islam is not simply a religion that "you do" once a week in a closed-door building. It is a way of life that encompasses all aspects of both public and private life. I know very well what the anti-niqab and anti-hijab agendas are about. The agenda is not about protecting women as they would want you to believe but about fostering an environment and culture where women do not have a right to privacy
i respect what you have to say about the Islamic reasons for the niqab, but to describe the western attitude as an agenda based on a desire to remove women's privacy is flat wrong. If western women wished to reconsider their own emancipation and started a movement to cover up, there's nothing in the world that would stop them.

The real problem is that deep down, western cultures find it difficult to believe that women had a genuine freedom of choice when they adopted the niqab/hijab - even if the women themselves say so. The reasons for this are historical.

The historical prohibitions concerning women's dress in the west were purely socially based. They weren't based on anything more substantial than that. But at the time they were often supported and enforced as much by women as men, because most people adopt the conventions of the society in which they grow up.

Therefore, when the principle of freedom of individual choice came to dominate western philosophy, in the absence of a religious justification these rules were swept away along with a host of other social conventions and restrictions.

Yes, this issue has got mixed up with recent Muslim/western political issues and tensions. But the underlying emotional difficulty westerners now have with the niqab/hijab is that, based on the history they know (and that's western history), it looks like a re-run of a social battle that was fought many years ago.
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Muhammad
10-12-2013, 02:20 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Again, apart from this superficial similarity in pictures, i really don't think the nun comparison is very strong.
At a deeper level, probably not. When you bring the issue of monasticism into it, then that is not what is being compared. I think the example is only meant to be a superficial one, comparing the dress codes, not the lifestyle.

The main issue you raise in your posts is social pressure, but then I go back to what I said before, which is whether this is truly a concern on a large scale, justifying negative perceptions. More and more women are converting to Islam and choosing to wear the Hijab/veil, often against the wishes of their families. Women are repeatedly telling the world in interviews, articles and on the streets that they are wearing the veil out of their own choice, and some have even been willing to be arrested or pay the fine for it. Campaigns have been raised against places where the ban has been instituted. I think one will find more examples of women who have to defend their right to wear the Hijab/veil than those who speak of coercion. The letter posted on the previous page of this thread mentions:

There is no campaign group of closet ex-veil Muslims, no Facebook page trying to raise awareness of an epidemic of coercive veiling. It’s quite simple - scores of young veil wearing Muslim women, like the ones who had the ban overturned due to the pressure they put on the Birmingham college, wear it out of their own accord. Apart from the fact that not all girls start wearing it at 13 anyway, it is strange that this discussion is not had about straightened hair, makeup or the length of the school skirt, or how across secondary schools in the UK today, 13-year-olds are adopting the ‘beauty ideal’ because they feel they have to. That is if we really want to talk about coercion in how girls dress.
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ardianto
10-12-2013, 02:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
The real problem is that deep down, western cultures find it difficult to believe that women had a genuine freedom of choice when they adopted the niqab/hijab - even if the women themselves say so. The reasons for this are historical.
As I've said, Muslim scholar in my place do not force women to wear hijab, but motivate them to wear it. And they motivate because wear or not wear hijab is not about choice, but about willingness.

A Muslim woman wear hijab not because she chooses to wear it, but because she is willing to wear it. Even wear hijab as a choice like just to follow mode is not suggested because it will make a woman sometime wear hijab sometime wear not.

Majority of women who wear hijab in my place wear it in 30's age although there are who wear it since 20's or teens, or over 40, over 50. It's depend on when will they ready to wear hijab.

So, if a Muslim woman wear hijab because she is willing to wear it, is a coercion?. It's depend on the mindset of those who see this matter. Muslims who fast in Ramadhan can be seen as coerced too although Muslims themselves who are fasting see it as a willingness to obey the command.

But I cannot deny a fact that in certain Muslim communities there are women who coerced to wear hijab or niqab by people around them although those women themselves haven't ready to wear it. But we cannot generalize it as all Muslim women coerced to wear hijab/niqab.
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Pygoscelis
10-13-2013, 01:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by faithandpeace
That being said, men do not have a "right" to see women's faces. Men do not have a "right" to see women's hair and neck. Men do not have a "right" to see women's shoulders, arms, and legs. Men do not have a "right" to see the rest of a woman's body. The same cultures and nations that often promote the phony notion of "freedom" are often the same cultures and nations that work overtime to take women's freedom away when it comes to personal privacy.
What if I try walking nude in the city? I don't just get strange looks like niqabi women get. I get arrested. I don't just get rude words in my direction, or even merely suspected as a criminal. I am declared a criminal (and a pervert), all because of my choice to walk as I was born. This cultural standard works against both ends of the spectrum.

I agree that you should be allowed to cover your body completely. I'm doubting you'll agree that I should be allowed to go completely uncovered. Keep in mind that I don't share your religious views and I may hypothetically even have religious views of my own (perhaps new age pagan) that forbids clothing.
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Muhammad
10-13-2013, 11:27 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
What if I try walking nude in the city? I don't just get strange looks like niqabi women get. I get arrested. I don't just get rude words in my direction, or even merely suspected as a criminal. I am declared a criminal (and a pervert), all because of my choice to walk as I was born. This cultural standard works against both ends of the spectrum.
The law on this depends on where you live:

Under the Sexual Offences Act 2003 it is not an offence to be naked in public in England and Wales. It becomes an offence if it can be proved the person stripped off with the intention to cause distress, alarm or outrage.


Then they run the risk of three possible offences, says a spokesman for law firm Kingsley Napley. These are:


• Indecent exposure - an offence under section 66 of the Sexual Offences Act 2003
• Intentional harassment, alarm or distress under section 4A of the Public Order Act 1986
• "Outraging public decency" under common law


If a case did get to court the onus would be on the prosecution to prove this intention to upset. If found guilty, the offender would face anything from a fine to several years in prison.


In Scottish law there is no statutory offence, just the common law offence of offending public decency - a strand of the breach of the peace. The test is essentially the same as in English law - that a member of the public has been put in a state of fear or alarm.
Got this from here, but be advised there is an inapproprate picture there. So the summary, as provided in the link, is: 'It's not an offence to be naked in public in England and Wales. Becomes offence if it can be proved the person stripped off with the intention to upset and shock.'


I agree that you should be allowed to cover your body completely. I'm doubting you'll agree that I should be allowed to go completely uncovered. Keep in mind that I don't share your religious views and I may hypothetically even have religious views of my own (perhaps new age pagan) that forbids clothing.
From an atheist/secular viewpoint, it makes no difference to allow nudity because there is no concept of sin, in the same way they call for freedom to practice homosexuality and the freedom to insult sacred things. The concept of absolute freedom and equality is promoted even if it means harm and injustice will result. Even so, one might argue there is still the concept of natural disposition which is deeply embedded in human nature. This explains why adults and children alike are disturbed by the sight of a naked person and why a law would have to be made about this, particularly under a 'sexual offences act'. And combining this with religious understanding, it is something that traces back to Adam and Eve who sought to cover themselves with the leaves of Paradise following their mistake which caused their nakedness to be revealed. On the other hand, a woman covering herself has always tended to be an act of virtue and modesty - the example of nuns and images of Mary (peace be upon her) have already preceded. With these thoughts in mind, it is not a simple case of inconsistency, rather a case of two very different things being compared.

The main focus is that if it is not an offence in England/Wales/Scotland to be naked, why would it be an offence for Muslim women to wear the Hijab/veil?
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ardianto
10-14-2013, 12:49 AM
Yesterday I was shopping in a busy supermarket where the visitors wore various model of clothes. There were who dressed formally, there were who dressed casually, there were women with hijab, there were women with mini skirts or short pants. And there was a woman who wore niqab.

Niqab actually is rare in Indonesia, a Muslim majority country where people are trendy and the youth are easy to be influenced by pop culture in dressing. But I noticed, no one paid attention to her. Me too, because I thought in a place where people can choose dressing style that they like, what's wrong if a woman choose niqab as her dress?.

I wore jean and t-shirt when I visited that supermarket and no one being offended because I didn't do something wrong that could offend other people like mocking or being rude. So, why people must being offended by a woman who wear niqab if she didn't do something wrong that offend the other?.

:)
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Berries'forest
10-14-2013, 01:13 AM
I agree that you should be allowed to cover your body completely. I'm doubting you'll agree that I should be allowed to go completely uncovered. Keep in mind that I don't share your religious views and I may hypothetically even have religious views of my own (perhaps new age pagan) that forbids clothing.
Actually you don't technically you are saying this as a conditional statement. In other words, you'd only fully support woman wearing veils if they in turn return your 'favor' by allowing you to walk unclothed in public. How can you use this analogy to refer to double standards there are no double standards If one lives under a secular community then that system should as follows protect their rights to their privacy and personal choices.

i respect what you have to say about the Islamic reasons for the niqab, but to describe the western attitude as an agenda based on a desire to remove women's privacy is flat wrong. If western women wished to reconsider their own emancipation and started a movement to cover up, there's nothing in the world that would stop them.

The real problem is that deep down, western cultures find it difficult to believe that women had a genuine freedom of choice when they adopted the niqab/hijab - even if the women themselves say so. The reasons for this are historical.
Independent, why does it concern you so much if a woman wants to conceal her face. I'm genuinely wondering why?. How does that affect you?. Better yet, can you actually explain in a sensible manner how a woman covering her face has any negative effect or impact on your personal life or private issues?. It seems you're taking this too close to heart. You as a male should care no more about a woman's clothing than you care of someone deciding to spend the rest of their life eating vegetables. It simply has nothing to do with you and everything to do with them. The let's ban it all since we can't prove that they all wear it of conviction doesn't bind well. Maybe you should be more open minded and stop imposing western conduct codes on everyone. The world does not revolve around Europe you can't dissolve and erase other cultures that have existed for years and centuries by your rationale maybe you should appreciate diversity or if you aren't capable of appreciating diversity just move on live and let live. That would solve the problem.
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Independent
10-14-2013, 08:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Berries'forest
Independent, why does it concern you so much if a woman wants to conceal her face. I'm genuinely wondering why?. How does that affect you?
No, I expressly said that I don't mind what people do:
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Personally, so long as there is genuinely no duress either way, I don't mind what people do.
I stress both halves of that sentence: 'I don't mind' and 'so long as there is genuinely no duress either way'.

Having said that, if I'm honest, perhaps there are limits to my not caring. If I lived in a society where I was obstructed from relating to all women, not just a few, I would certainly feel the loss. (If anything I've had more women friends than male through my life. And also more women bosses.) I would be hugely sad to be cut off from that. I feel my life, and my society would be poorer for it in every respect. Women can bring out the best in men and vice versa.

But at an individual level I am happy for people to choose what they want in this as in a thousand other things which you might object to.
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observer
10-14-2013, 08:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
From an atheist/secular viewpoint, it makes no difference to allow nudity because there is no concept of sin, in the same way they call for freedom to practice homosexuality and the freedom to insult sacred things. The concept of absolute freedom and equality is promoted even if it means harm and injustice will result.

Just a quick point - atheism is not a single viewpoint. You will find atheist homophobes and those who hate the idea of public nudity. It is a huge mistake (often repeated by the religious) to lump atheists together as a group with a single focus. An arab atheist will likely have very different views to a European atheist who will have different views to a South American atheist. Atheism is one thing - a lack of belief in god. Atheism doesn't "promote" anything.
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Pygoscelis
10-14-2013, 09:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
Even so, one might argue there is still the concept of natural disposition which is deeply embedded in human nature. This explains why adults and children alike are disturbed by the sight of a naked person and why a law would have to be made about this, particularly under a 'sexual offences act'.
I don't believe that for a second. Babies have no issue with nudity. Not until they are culturally programmed to be ashamed for their bodies do people concern themselves with nudity.

The main focus is that if it is not an offence in England/Wales/Scotland to be naked, why would it be an offence for Muslim women to wear the Hijab/veil?
I agree. However, I point out that the standard of decency, privacy, and what is cosidered normal will vary from place to place. In some places (ie, Wales as you say) covering completely is not culturally allowed. In others (ie, where the niqabi women often come from) being completely naked isn't. I find it hypocritical to come from one culture into the other and complain about it.
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Pygoscelis
10-14-2013, 09:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Berries'forest
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I agree that you should be allowed to cover your body completely.
Actually you don't technically you are saying this as a conditional statement.
How is that a conditional statement? I support your right to cover your face, regardless of your desire to force clothes on me. I just find it rather hypocritical for you to do that and then argue free choice.
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ardianto
10-14-2013, 09:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
If I lived in a society where I was obstructed from relating to all women, not just a few, I would certainly feel the loss.
But, you are not living in society like that. :)

Okay, I understand if you would certainly feel the loss if you were obstructed from relating to all women, not just a few. Me too.

Just like other Muslim boys, I learned Qur'an since I was kid, with my brother, few other boys, and few girls. We learned together from same teacher in same time, same room.

Then in the school I learned Islam in classroom together with female student. Like I've ever said that I meet my wife in the classroom in high school. Graduated from high school, I studied economic in an Islamic university with female students too.

Muslim scholars in my place do not forbid male and female to know each other and do activities together. They just give us guidance of etiquette in relationship between men and women. Different than Muslim scholars in Saudi Arabia which very strict in prohibit mixed gender study and activities. But I am not living in Saudi Arabia. So this prohibition does not affect me.

I understand if people in the West are worry that one day their society will turn into society like in Saudi although sometime I think this worries is too excessive. In fact now the Western people are still in their life style.

And I also understand why the niqabi in the West cannot change their niqab (face veil) into hijab (headscarves) like proposed by few people in the West.

Frankly, my hope is two parties can discuss with cool mind to get a win-win solution. The non-Muslims do not again see niqab as threat for their Western civilization, and the (radical) Muslims stop their provocative action like forcing Sharia for the West with use niqab as symbol of (their version of) Sharia.

But actually not every niqabi is 'rigid'. There are niqabis who nice, friendly and can respect people from other belief.
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Berries'forest
10-14-2013, 09:33 AM
I just find it rather hypocritical for you to do that and then argue free choice.
Would you really support something I do that you find hypocritical. I recall that you stated you are no less in support of pushing validation of niqab than you are supporting publicly nudity. It is my free choice to wear whatever I want. And you're arguing against negatives.You make it appear that nudity is the natural state of human life while in reality it's not. Yes, you are born undressed but the moment you're out of the womb you're immediately dressed or covered by a piece of clothing otherwise the difference in temperature can be a real threat to your health. Besides there are no positive or productive outcomes in walking unclothed, while there's hardly any harm in covering up. I don't understand why it is men who usually are the ones who oppose to women covering up. I'm wondering if a woman covering up hurts your feelings because she is sending out rejection signals or is it that it's really about time men leave feminine issues alone and respect what women have to say and want to do. Not just for the majority who conform to their views but also to the minority who do wish in fact to cherish their bodies and not sell them selves. We have far higher record than anytime in issues with body image and self-esteem I don't seem how pushing for a law that proposes public acceptance of nudity to have a advantage or be of any benefit it would more likely increase indecency in behavior, more body image issues and low self-esteem problems and not to mention that blatant invasion of one's privacy and right to confidentiality. In conclusion the comparison of covering up to nudity fails in all aspects in that they have contrasting outcomes and consequences and I don't find it hypocritical at all.
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Berries'forest
10-14-2013, 09:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
Having said that, if I'm honest, perhaps there are limits to my not caring. If I lived in a society where I was obstructed from relating to all women, not just a few, I would certainly feel the loss. (If anything I've had more women friends than male through my life. And also more women bosses.) I would be hugely sad to be cut off from that. I feel my life, and my society would be poorer for it in every respect. Women can bring out the best in men and vice versa.
And where just where and when exactly did any muslim woman declare the desire to launch a campaign enforcing niqab on every other woman muslim or non-muslim. The women who you speak of in your life are not affected by niqab anymore than I am affected by a woman uncovering her head in the street. Maybe you are coming to realize that it's nothing to do with you since no one here is advocating that people should wear it willy-nilly rather that the ones who are currently observing it should have their rights preserved and respected. You're boss can and probably does walk into the work environment wearing a skirt that goes just above her knees along with a sleeveless cleavage revealing top and no one ever complains that her dress code causes distraction and comes in the way of the working ethic. Yet a woman who peacefully walk in covered is often looked down on as traditional old-fashion and with no sense of style. It very slightly has to do with regulations of personal choice and more to do with conformity to societal standards of what and how a woman should behave like and since modesty and bashfulness are outlawed by promiscuity and the more you show in a woman's case the more acceptance and appraise you'll receive I find it hard to believe you have in it's minimum any concern for those women who wear against their choice, which is rare even in Islamic societies niqab isn't as well received in muslim households as you're trying to claim.
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Pygoscelis
10-14-2013, 10:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Berries'forest
Would you really support something I do that you find hypocritical.
Support your right to do it? Yes. Why not? We do that all the time.

You make it appear that nudity is the natural state of human life while in reality it's not.
Yes it is.

Yes, you are born undressed but the moment you're out of the womb you're immediately dressed or covered by a piece of clothing otherwise the difference in temperature can be a real threat to your health.
Depends entirely on where you are and what the climate or climate control is. Sometimes clothing is useful. But often it isn't needed. Same goes for a lot of human inventions.

I don't understand why it is men who usually are the ones who oppose to women covering up.
I know plenty of female nudists.

I'm wondering if a woman covering up hurts your feelings because she is sending out rejection signals
I'm wondering if a woman or man going naked hurts your feelings because they are not conforming to your demands of "decency".

or is it that it's really about time men leave feminine issues alone and respect what women have to say and want to do. Not just for the majority who conform to their views but also to the minority who do wish in fact to cherish their bodies and not sell them selves.
And those who wish to feel the freedom of being nude.

We have far higher record than anytime in issues with body image and self-esteem I don't seem how pushing for a law that proposes public acceptance of nudity to have a advantage or be of any benefit it would more likely increase indecency in behavior, more body image issues and low self-esteem problems and not to mention that blatant invasion of one's privacy and right to confidentiality.
How is choosing to be naked a invasion of anyone's privacy or confidentiality? And why do you think that more people walking naked will cause an increase in body image issues? Its not like we can't tell somebody is fat whether they wear clothes or not. And if somebody has a scar they would like to hide, nobody would be stopping them. I'm not saying we should have mandatory nudity. I'm saying people should have the freedom to choose, be that the choice to fully cover themselves, or not cover themselves at all.

In conclusion the comparison of covering up to nudity fails in all aspects in that they have contrasting outcomes and consequences and I don't find it hypocritical at all.
You demand the freedom to choose. But you are one sided about it.

I can understand both the strict muslim and the liberal nudist. I think I'm the only one here that can.
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faithandpeace
10-14-2013, 10:36 AM
I reject the idea that all knowledge, cultures, religions, and viewpoints are inherently "equal" to one another. Hence, I reject the notion that the right to veil would be equally valid to the right to go nude much in the same way that I would not consider a culture that does human sacrifices as equal to one that prohibits the practice. Intellectual "neutrality" or "the balancing" of ideas is not the path to truth and justice.
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Berries'forest
10-14-2013, 10:43 AM
Well, this is going to be long..

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Support your right to do it? Yes. Why not? We do that all the time.
That was rhetoric.
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Yes it is.
Depends entirely on where you are and what the climate or climate control is. Sometimes clothing is useful. But often it isn't needed. Same goes for a lot of human inventions.
I'm not sure many children's health care experts would agree. Alright then, leave aside our nature of being born undressed and consider the fact the we are born with our eyes shut. That is the natural state in which we are born, we slowly and gradually after learn to open our eyes and embrace the vision with are granted. How about a law that entail people to walk around with their eyes shut since there's no shame and harm and afterall we were born that way. Moreover, when we are born we don't automatically walk I would say it is wholly out of nature to see a new born baby immediately pickup walking, although that we have been programmed that walkling is a vital function for our daily lives and yet there's not a single person arguing that we should dispose of walking since it's only second nature and we weren't born that way. We don't crawl anymore unless we want to be a public laughing stock or imitate animals yet walking isn't viewed that way. Taking in this into your arguement I would say there is nothing more unnatural for us humans to do than walking and running and infact being slow or unable to move or incapable of walking should using this logic be perfectly acceptable.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I know plenty of female nudists.
And this is relevant how?. Unless you haven't realized nudity is actually and contrary to what you trying to propose very much widely accepted it is in fact much more accepted than covering up with a veil. We don't see many magazines being sold around that portray the veil as much as there are ones who portray the alter. Yet most of the participants in this thread are actually males and not females.

I'm wondering if a woman or man going naked hurts your feelings because they are not conforming to your demands of "decency".
No they don't hurt my feelings but I would say they disturb my vision.


format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
And those who wish to feel the freedom of being nude.
I don't really make laws. But you are making unmeetable demands. You want me to repress my right to cover up and then advocate other people's rights to walk around unclothed. That's hardly reasonable.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
How is choosing to be naked a invasion of anyone's privacy or confidentiality? And why do you think that more people walking naked will cause an increase in body image issues? Its not like we can't tell somebody is fat whether they wear clothes or not. And if somebody has a scar they would like to hide, nobody would be stopping them. I'm not saying we should have mandatory nudity. I'm saying people should have the freedom to choose, be that the choice to fully cover themselves, or not cover themselves at all.
You'd be surprised by the amount of women who prefer not to show their bodies. And yes just like leaving my house open for everyone to see and dwell in is an invasion of privacy the same goes with exposing my body parts to the public. I can't believe we're even discussing this. I did also make a point that niqab are rare and extreme cases and that it's not the norm why have you over looked this?.
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Independent
10-14-2013, 10:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Berries'forest
And where just where and when exactly did any muslim woman declare the desire to launch a campaign enforcing niqab on every other woman muslim or non-muslim
i didn't say they were, i just said I would be sorry to live in a society that inhibited me from interacting with women (which is a wider subject than just the niqab). It's not even about women in particular, I'd be just as unhappy if it was men who were withdrawing.

Women can choose to do what they want and that includes totally ignoring me. (I've had practise in putting up with this.)

The kind of society ardianto describes sounds good to me. And when i spent a couple of months in Indonesia many years ago that did seem to be the way things worked.

format_quote Originally Posted by Berries'forest
I find it hard to believe you have in it's minimum any concern for those women who wear against their choice, which is rare even in Islamic societies
I have no idea about numbers either way, it's a hard thing to measure. Again, I believe women should be left free to choose either way. If you also think that, that we are in agreement.
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Muhammad
10-14-2013, 11:46 PM
Greetings,

format_quote Originally Posted by observer
Just a quick point - atheism is not a single viewpoint.
Thanks for pointing that out. Although I think in some ways there is a commonality with all atheists here, which is that they have no concept of sin and right and wrong is not determined by a divine authority, which then influences how they view things. But regarding different opinions on nudity etc, I'll try to bear that in mind.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I don't believe that for a second. Babies have no issue with nudity. Not until they are culturally programmed to be ashamed for their bodies do people concern themselves with nudity.
How do you know that babies have no issue with nudity - they are very limited in their ability to express what they desire or dislike. Babies do a number of things without being 'programmed' by human beings. They sometimes go into a corner or hide themselves when they want to relieve themselves. Likewise there are a number of things that humans in general would simply not do out of their sense of innate shame.

I agree. However, I point out that the standard of decency, privacy, and what is cosidered normal will vary from place to place. In some places (ie, Wales as you say) covering completely is not culturally allowed. In others (ie, where the niqabi women often come from) being completely naked isn't. I find it hypocritical to come from one culture into the other and complain about it.
I don't think there has really been a complaint by such people against nudity, at least not on the scale of the complaints against Hijab/Niqab. What we are discussing is more from a hypothetical view exploring why one should be allowed and not the other.
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Pygoscelis
10-17-2013, 07:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Berries'forest
Alright then, leave aside our nature of being born undressed and consider the fact the we are born with our eyes shut. That is the natural state in which we are born, we slowly and gradually after learn to open our eyes and embrace the vision with are granted. How about a law that entail people to walk around with their eyes shut since there's no shame and harm and afterall we were born that way.
I am not aware of any laws banning closing your eyes in public. If you start walking around and bumping into people, or driving with your eyes closed (or obstructed by a face covering) then you should be held liable, but otherwise, does anybody really care? Should they? Likewise with nudity or wearing a burqa. If its actually harming others (ie, posing an identity or security risk, or posing a hygiene risk) that is one thing, but a ban just because it offends somebody is quite another.

And this is relevant how?. Unless you haven't realized nudity is actually and contrary to what you trying to propose very much widely accepted it is in fact much more accepted than covering up with a veil.
Huh? There are laws against public nudity. You can get arrested in many (if not most) parts of the world for walking down the street naked. There are not many places where you'll get arrested for wearing a face veil. Try both and report back to me if you don't believe me.

We don't see many magazines being sold around that portray the veil as much as there are ones who portray the alter. Yet most of the participants in this thread are actually males and not females.
First, what do those two sentences have to do with one another? Why does it matter if there are more males than females writing here?

Second, the taboo of nudity is what makes nudie magazines sell. And they don't sell all that well. Not unless you are referring to full on porn magazines which are much more graphic than mere nudity.

I don't really make laws. But you are making unmeetable demands. You want me to repress my right to cover up and then advocate other people's rights to walk around unclothed. That's hardly reasonable.
Where did I demand that you repress your right to cover up?

My only concern with face veils is where security or identity become important issues, like on driver's licenses or when voting or in banks. Otherwise, I don't care what you wear. You can wear whatever you want, or nothing at all.

You'd be surprised by the amount of women who prefer not to show their bodies.
Not as much as you think. Hence, why I fully support their right not to show their bodies if they don't want to. But I can tell that you would be very surprised by the amount of women who are not ashamed of their bodies and would like the freedom to be nude.

I did also make a point that niqab are rare and extreme cases and that it's not the norm why have you over looked this?.
So is public nudity.
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ardianto
10-18-2013, 12:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
My only concern with face veils is where security or identity become important issues, like on driver's licenses or when voting or in banks.
My niqabi customer always drive her own car when she comes to my office, and I am sure if I could see her driver license I could know her face because wearing niqab in driver license photo in Indonesia is forbidden.

To be honest, in the driver license case like that happened in USA, I do not stand with niqabi that still want to to wear niqab in driver license photo. But in case like in UK when niqabi were banned to wear niqab in campus, I stand with niqabi because not difficult to recognize that "she is really she is". I can recognize my niqabi friend and customer from their voices and way of speak.

In voting?. Someone who know her can guarantee that she is not someone else. In bank? her husband or someone can open an account for her.

Ban niqab in public place?. Oh, please respect the freedom to live under religious rule. If the niqabi didn't do something wrong, why they should be banned to wear niqab?.

Actually there's always a solution for the issue of the niqab in the West if both parties are willing to tolerate each other.
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Independent
10-18-2013, 07:47 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Actually there's always a solution for the issue of the niqab in the West if both parties are willing to tolerate each other
This whole thing has become a problem because it's been politicised. Individual women have been wearing, or not wearing, niqabs in the UK for decades. Now suddenly it's a big issue either way. It's become a political statement.

format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Ban niqab in public place?. Oh, please respect the freedom to live under religious rule.
I wouldn't worry. Just because one idiot stands up and says he's on favour of a public ban doesn't mean is going to happen. No way will this happen in the UK. Limited restrictions in court, in security situations or in certain professions are more debatable and there will continue to be issues here.
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ardianto
10-18-2013, 09:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Independent
This whole thing has become a problem because it's been politicised. Individual women have been wearing, or not wearing, niqabs in the UK for decades. Now suddenly it's a big issue either way. It's become a political statement.
Hmmm ........ the politicians again.

I wouldn't worry. Just because one idiot stands up and says he's on favour of a public ban doesn't mean is going to happen. No way will this happen in the UK.
I hope UK will not implement public ban for niqab. I myself come from group of Muslims which the women do not cover their face, but I understand and respect other Muslims who hold opinion they must cover their faces and they want to obey this.

Limited restrictions in court, in security situations or in certain professions are more debatable and there will continue to be issues here.
Although difficult, I am still hoping the both parties will discuss about it to find the solution.
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ardianto
10-18-2013, 03:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
More and more women are converting to Islam and choosing to wear the Hijab/veil, often against the wishes of their families.
From The Muslim' Show

https://fbcdn-sphotos-f-a.akamaihd.n...31798345_n.jpg

:)
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