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facethetruth
09-16-2013, 03:48 PM
Salam Alikom, Do muscular or fit men who where fit or slim fit shirts cause fitna to woman? Is it better for men not to where these kind of shirts??
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sister herb
09-16-2013, 03:58 PM
Salam alaykum

I think sure it is better not to try to show they musculars to non-mahram women at all. Islamic, covering clothes, is the best to both women and men.

And lowering your gaze with opposite gender.
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ardianto
09-16-2013, 05:37 PM
Originally Posted by facethetruth
Salam Alikom, Do muscular or fit men who where fit or slim fit shirts cause fitna to woman? Is it better for men not to where these kind of shirts??
If this muscular guy was not good looking then he still would not look good in the women eyes, even he could be look like a thug. In fact, a man who show his muscle to attract the women is a man who realize that he is not handsome. :D

Actually, is not the men appearance that cause fitna to the women, but the men behavior that intentionally attract the women that will cause fitna. Good looking man indeed get attention which the women like to look at him. But actually women would not infatuated to him if he does not intentionally tries to attract them.

It's okay if a man look good in the women eyes, as long as he does not tries to make the women infatuated to him that will cause fitna. Show the muscle is not an effort to make a man look good, but an effort to make the women infatuated.
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Abz2000
09-16-2013, 10:58 PM
:wasalam:
A muscular body a part of manhood and is a more enhanced definition (physical) of a male,
Although it can attract attention by the opposite gender, the obligatory covering for a man is from navel to knee. Some companions of the prophet pbuh would wear an izhar only and he (pbuh) once instructed them to wrap their ihrams under their arm and bare their shoulders to show off their forearms while walking briskly around ka'bah in a show of man force to the disbelievers. The question would probably that of discretion and not yes or no.
- discouragig or banning either-this-or-the-nude t-shirts would be in effectual because topless goes ok too :nervous:
banning skintight (gay looking) trousers maybe can be looked into if you like, since that's a question of Fard 'awrah.
To someone who often sees labourers workingin the rice field with their t-shirts off (many of them naturally muscular and toned from physically demanding work), it would probably be a surprising question.

Still we are still instructed to be modest and humble....

these hadiths may help with the issue of discretion and motive.

Volume 7, Book 72, Number 680:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

The Prophet (or 'Abul Qasim) said, "While a man was walking, clad in a two-piece garment and proud of himself with his hair well-combed, suddenly Allah made him sink into the earth and he will go on sinking into it till the Day of Resurrection.



Volume 7, Book 72, Number 675:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

The Prophet said Allah will not look, on the Day of Resurrection at the person who drags his garment (behind him) out of conceit. On that Abu Bakr said, "O Allah's Apostle! One side of my Izar hangs low if I do not take care of it." The Prophet said, 'You are not one of those who do that out of conceit."


612. Anas said, "No rain fell for a year and so one of the Muslims went to the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, on Jumu'a (Friday). He said, 'Messenger of Allah, there has been no rain and the ground is dry and people's wealth has been destroyed.' He raised his hand when there was not a cloud to be seen in the sky. He stretched out his arms until I could see the whiteness of his armpits and asked Allah for rain. As soon as we finished the prayer, (the rain was such that) the youth whose house was near was afraid to return to his family. It last past Friday, The following Friday, they said, 'Messenger of Allah, the houses have fallen down and the paths are blocked.' He smiled and observed how quickly the son of Adam becomes discontented. He said while making a gesture with his hand, 'O Allah, around us and not on us.' And the rain cleared away from Madina."

I can't find the Hadith abt the companion who he (pbuh) wanted to teach a lesson to because he bleated like a he-goat to attract the women at the back of the caravan during a battle march, hope someone can find it.


please pray that Allah forgives us, guides us and gives us strength to reject the debased ways of kufr that shaytan and his allies push at us, for verily Islam is light, while infidelity is darkness.
Peace
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facethetruth
09-17-2013, 06:56 AM
In ossol fiqh a tool to haram is haram, from another forum 50 women said yes it attracts the other gender and can cause fitna, then it is haram. In hajj and omra the story is different because it is an exception even women don't cover their face even if they are very beautiful. Alhamdolilah Rab Al Alameen
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Abz2000
09-17-2013, 08:15 AM
In ossol fiqh a tool to haram is haram, from another forum 50 women said yes it attracts the other gender and can cause fitna, then it is haram. In hajj and omra the story is different because it is an exception even women don't cover their face even if they are very beautiful. Alhamdolilah Rab Al Alameen
Assalamu'alaikum wr wb
Yes bro, of course it can attract attention just like many other things do - but I don't believe it's possible to make it haram lol,
It is not a part of awrah for men, we have to leave stuff like that to discretion because if we went around labelling haram anything we felt intimidated by, we'd end up with a very rigid community with a myriad of man made laws and confused police force which would be at its wits end.

The Quran addresses the whole of mankind and keeps the fundentals simple and easy to understand, the Ahadith elaborate further, then the jurists (may Allah have mercy on them) build the flesh based on those.
Anyone who has grappled with laws knows that you can't set rigid limits and regulate everything, its especially difficult when it comes to things that are not fundamentally haram.

There are certain places where you just have to let people use their own discretion otherwise they might even feel under oppression when you make laws for everything, man was created with intellect and was given freedom, restrictions, and guidance by Allah, and Allah revealed the message in such a way that even a family on a remote islandwith no human authority can willingly implement it live their lives by its principles.
the onus is not on regulation, but willing submission to Allah through exercising intellect, reason, justice, fairness, discretion etc regardless of whether there's a police force or not, regardless of whether there is Islamic government to enforce. It is due to this that you find Islam able to thrive and even expand with no political leadership or authority structure to enforce. It storms hearts, not doors.
You will notice this from the multi-stage prohibition of alcohol that Allah was creating a community that reflects and accepts willingly from what it learns, not just from do or don't laws that only work via dictatorial enforcement.

Believers are expected to use their God given intellect and discern what is ok and not ok in most cases, especially when they are unseen and with no one to regulate. making too many laws distracts from the essence and creates a society regulated by statutes rather than taqwa (as in the case of the children of israel).
Then the letter of the law takes precedence over the spirit, and everything goes downhill.

Humans (unlike cattle) have to be allowed to use their brains outside as well as inside, over-regulation beyond what's prescribed can eat away at the fabric of the heart and it's ability to judge, thereby causing a bigger fitnah.
And Allah knows best.
Peace.
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facethetruth
09-18-2013, 08:50 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
but I don't believe it's possible to make it haram lol,
It is not about if you believe or not, it is about if it is Halal or Haram. Sorry brother but there is a big misunderstanding for you on how to find it is Haram or Hallal. Inshalah I will take time to respond to you but not another time I cant make 'taseel' every time you make a fatwa, either study ossol figh then fiqh, Arabic, Nasikh and Mansookh, Motlak Mokayad, Am and Alkhas that's beside the books of Makasid such Al Mowafakat then probably you can talk about this. Brother PLEASE it is NOT SIMPLE. Fatwas are not simple, that's why their are scholars. Brother Wallahi it take time to explain the whole taseel and my Dawa vication is over so I cant do this all the time...
Originally Posted by Abz2000
It is not a part of awrah for men
That's not the reason for saying it is Haram.
Originally Posted by Abz2000
we have to leave stuff like that to discretion because if we went around labelling haram anything we felt intimidated by, we'd end up with a very rigid community with a myriad of man made laws and confused police force which would be at its wits end
I did not say I am doing this because I am feeling this, it is based on a rule. And we will not end up this way.
Originally Posted by Abz2000
The Quran addresses the whole of mankind and keeps the fundentals simple and easy to understand
Brother it is not easy to understand, do you know what is Gharib Alkoran? What is Majaz? What is Balagha? what about Asbab Alnzool?....
Originally Posted by Abz2000
There are certain places where you just have to let people use their own discretion otherwise they might even feel under oppression when you make laws for everything, man was created with intellect and was given freedom, restrictions, and guidance by Allah, and Allah revealed the message in such a way that even a family on a remote islandwith no human authority can willingly implement it live their lives by its principles.
I did not make laws, these are the laws of Allah.... I cant keep going with the rest, I also cant teach you Knowledge in a forum...
Originally Posted by Abz2000
Humans (unlike cattle) have to be allowed to use their brains outside as well as inside, over-regulation
In Halal stuff.
Originally Posted by Abz2000
Allah knows best
But Allah said to ask the people of knowledge if you don't know. Jazak Allah Khair brother pls don't take it personal but just to clariy stuff for you and inshalah as you gain more knowledge things are going to be clearer. If I want to explain to you this rule I have to go with you through a lot and this takes a lot of time so for now follow the command of Alllah and ask the people of Knowledge. Jazak Allah Khair. Sorry everything is clear so I wont respond if I you came back last week I would've spend time with you but I am working again so I cant. I was planning also to do a sears of lectures as an intro but no body was interested so I just passed and used that time in other beneficial stuff Inshalah. Jazzak Allah Khair. Everything is clear so I wont respond about this topic inshalah....
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Abz2000
09-18-2013, 02:55 PM
MashaAllah brother you seem to be very knowledgable in the details as you've demonstrated,
Me, I'm just an ordinary person who tries to see how it stands, and the way it has always stood is the fact that men have been given a different awrah for the reason that they are physically and psychologically different from women. And men's awrah doesn't include the torso. Neither was it so in the time of the prophet pbuh and even sahabah were allowed to pray bare chested, although it is not recommended but allowed:

354. It is related that Sa'id ibn al-Harith said, "We asked Jabir ibn 'Abdullah about praying in a single cloth. He said, 'I went out with the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, on one of his journeys. One night I went to him for some reason and found him praying. I was wearing a single garment. I wrapped myself in it and prayed beside him. When he finished, he said, 'What is your purpose, Jabir?' I told him what I wanted and when I had concluded, he said, 'What is this covering business I saw you do?' I said, 'I was wearing a single cloth.' He said, 'If it is wide enough, wrap yourself in it, but if it is narrow then use it as a waist-wrapper.'" (Muwatta, Book 8, 35)

In Sunni interpretations, the 'awrah of a man refers to the part of the body from the navel (not inclusive) to the knees. Whether the knees are included is a subject of scholarly debate, with the Maliki, Shafi'i, and Hanbali schools of thought holding that they are not included, and the Hanafi school holding that they are.


If some men believe they can do better, good for them.
I can't see how one can forbid men from wearing a t-shirt that displays the shape of the torso, yet acknowledge that a bare torso is ok,
Allah A'lam
Peace
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sister herb
09-18-2013, 03:53 PM
Salam alaykum

Why men should look attractive to women at all? Pious women should lower they gaze when meet men (as well men should do the same). Man with big musculars might not mean that he is pious muslim at all - just a man with big musculars.
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facethetruth
09-19-2013, 06:48 PM
Salam Alikom Brother,

Jazzak allah khair, usually people will get all defensive when something like this happen and starts argue, but in your case you did what we should do. Let me take some time to explain this rule though there is a whole PHD thesis about this rule which is 700+ pages.

But I will give you the summary inshalah.

Lets start with few examples.

1- Allah ordered the wives of the prophet to not talk softly, but why ? though it is Halal to talk softly. The answer Allah answered it in the same aya so people who are ill in their heart will misunderstand. In this case talking softly is haram though it halal in general

Another example

Walking is halal and every body walk but it turns to Mandatory when you walk toward the masjid (saying you live 9 houses close to it or closer) so in this case it is Fard to walk

Last example to make stuff 100% clear inshalah. Working is Halal in Halal stuff but it turns to Mandatory when your family in need and you need to support it.

In the same way here clothes are Halal but when it cause fitna because it turns to a tool to Haram then it is Haram. This beside the Kyas and other stuff.
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Ahmad H
09-19-2013, 09:59 PM
Not voicing my own opinion on what is Halal or Haram here, it is obvious men should cover themselves, the Qur'an and Ahadith fully support this and it is a Sunna amongst many Islamic communities in the world which is well-known (given exceptions). However, I know for a fact that there are some men who think that if they make themselves muscular, then they can wear tight shirts and attract women because of how their body looks.

Therefore, the intention itself for most men is wrong. Unless a man is working on a job where they need to wear tight clothing to work easily, they shouldn't do so because modern society has taught women (of course, with exceptions) to like men who look a certain way, i.e., muscular men. Maybe not all women do, but those women who are suckers into believing this will certainly think that is how they should think. Therefore, men shouldn't wear tight shirts unless they have to. Otherwise, that hidden intention is there for those men who think women will be attracted to them for wearing tight shirts.

In summary: The intention of men is the major reason why they should avoid wearing tight shirts unnecessarily. I think many would agree with this. Some of you other men here will know this too that you have friends who dress in order to attract women.

On a personal note, it is why I don't try to dress too nicely. Sometimes women would tell me I look nice. It kinda felt wrong to have any of them comment on me. Thus, I try to dress less nicely, especially if I will be seen by women.
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Abz2000
09-20-2013, 12:31 AM
Assalamu'alaikum wr wb brothers and sisters,
As I mentioned earlier, women and men are physically and psychologically different (trust me to state the obvious) men in general have been given a more brutish desire than women, the physical aspect of a woman alone can make them switch totally on and want to satisfy that urge. with women it's a little different, a few emotional buttons usually need to be pushed too, along with the desire not to be just used and discarded (men don't normally mind as long as they can climb the peak) - secondly, men have been given more physical strength than women, putting women in an even more vulnerable position. Maybe some points to consider when trying to understand the need for women to protect themselves from prying eyes a little more than men.
In general, it is the man tha approaches the woman, while vice versa is usually uncommon and in the comparitively rare cases it happens, makes a man's alarm bells ring with doubt, especially since women normally look for security in a relationship, (mahr is an indication (financial aspect) of the difference in mentality.

Ok, now can one imagine the Quran telling men to be careful in case women in who's hearts is disease are moved with desire? I can't, and I understand why because it would be quite irrelevant given the above mentioned reasons.

Finally I'll reiterate a previous point.
Makruh is usually a personal choice, and allowing some while not allowing others is quite unimplementable as a law, since the police would have to establish why the person is wearing a skinny t-shirt, arresting some on suspicion and overwhelming the legal system with totally unnecessary and costly trials and legal processes, with nothing provable at the end.

If somebody can show me how that's implementable as a law, please do elaborate as it would be an interesting subject to ponder on.
It feels like the idea in Britain of hospitals banning niqabs, yet requiring surgical masks which cover exactly the same amount of the face as the niqab.

Many things lead to haram brothers, that's why we have prescribed limits in the Quran and Hadith.
Even feet lead to haram, when walking towards evil, fists lead to haram when one punches wrongly, tongues lead to haram when they speak falsehood. We can't ban them all though.

Imagine the myriad of statutes the state would have to make if it turned to focusing on the tightness of a non-awrah part of he body and other similar things.

imagine how straight jacketed people would be,
they'd just study laws and fear the state rather than wonder how they should behave of their own accord.
millions of legal and community disputes on intent would ensue since not everyone likes to be charged with a crime,


Ps, I can also matter of factly inform you that many boys use powerful muscular cars as "sl*t magnets" and women usually are attracted by it. how does one go about looking at the intent of the person buying the car, is it for speed and power or mainly to bag nice girls?
Women are attracted by financial security too (beside the need to feel treasured and loved) , I don't believe it possible to regulate the intent of the man who's money "might" be used to attract women.

we all (of course) know that there's a distinction between halal and haram,
Intention on the other hand is difficult (if not impossible) to judge or prove, especially when Ot involves the halal non-awrah part of the body.

Peace

(pls don't mind my random haphazard way of writing, using a phone and finding it difficult to keep a steady composed flow, can only see 3-4 lines at a time.
Had to mention that coz I look at the posts and they appear totally random to me).
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Abz2000
09-20-2013, 06:16 AM
The following narration relates to this matter.

"Ibn 'Abbass said, 'A beautiful woman, from among the most beautiful of women, used to pray behind the Prophet (SAAW). Some of the people used to go to pray in the front row to ensure they would not be able to see her. Others would pray in the last row of the men, and they would look from underneath their armpits to see her."

Because of this act, in regard to her, Allah revealed: "Verily, We know the eager among you to be in the front and verily We know the eager to be behind." (15:24).

Narrated by Ibn Majah, Abu Dawud, Attayalisy, Baihaqi, Ahmad, Tirmidhi, Nasai and others. It was judged authentic by Sheikh Al-Albaanee in his book, Silsilat Al-Ahaadeeth As-Saheehah #2472, where he quoted many scholars who judged it to be authentic.

As you can see from this Hadeeth, there was a Fitnah, but the answer was not a partition, rather it was the reminder of Allah. What suffices for them suffices for us, and Allah knows best.


Also, it was possible for them to do it - and they cared about their Diyn more than we do. Thus, with all respect to all of the scholars who say it is ok, the answer is that yes, the partition is Bid'ah (innovation).

http://www.themodernreligion.com/bas...ion_mosque.htm


Another relevant point would be the difference in ruling between men and women wearing perfume outdoors.
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Pygoscelis
09-20-2013, 01:54 PM
Originally Posted by facethetruth
Walking is halal and every body walk but it turns to Mandatory when you walk toward the masjid (saying you live 9 houses close to it or closer) so in this case it is Fard to walk
I had never heard this before so I went and looked it up and was surprised to find it confirmed in many places. Do people who live closer to the mosque go on walks away from the mosque and then turn back, so they can walk further to get there? Are real estate prices effected by mosques being built? If a mosque is built next door to you, does the value of your house go down in muslim lands? Or is this more a rule that most muslims are relaxed on?

Also, does this apply to all travel or just walking? If you live a few cities away from the mosque and have to drive there, is living two cities away better than living one city away?
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facethetruth
09-20-2013, 05:35 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Do people who live closer to the mosque go on walks away from the mosque and then turn back, so they can walk further to get there?
Sorry dude, but I wasted hours and hours with atheists and when I answer their questions they will keep up bringing new ones, or when I convince them that what they are saying is wrong they do the same thing. Honestly I dont want to waste my time. Are you asking these questions because you are interested in Islam? or you have another reason, if yes pls specify it, if it is a beneficial reason then I can respond other than that sorry dude I am overwhelmed.
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Pygoscelis
09-20-2013, 07:16 PM
I ask because I am curious. I'm neither looking to make some grand point nor looking to join Islam. I'm just curious.

You are of course perfectly free to ignore my questions. Others may be interested in exploring the topic even if you are not though. That's why I posted it on a public board instead of private messaging you. :)
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Abdul Fattah
09-20-2013, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Do people who live closer to the mosque go on walks away from the mosque and then turn back, so they can walk further to get there?
don't think anybody would be this silly, but who knows what people would do...

Are real estate prices effected by mosques being built? If a mosque is built next door to you, does the value of your house go down in muslim lands? Or is this more a rule that most muslims are relaxed on?
I know allot of people who'd prefer living close to a mosque, whereas others might find the idea of having to go intimidating. don't know about prices. But usually mosques are built in the central place, so I guess in most cases you'd already be looking at higher prices.

Also, does this apply to all travel or just walking? If you live a few cities away from the mosque and have to drive there, is living two cities away better than living one city away?
If the mosque is to far you don't have to go for each prayer. You would spend the whole day going back and forth. But I think in Islamic countries every city has multiple mosques so there is almost always one fairly nearby unless you live really isolated.
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M.I.A.
09-20-2013, 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I had never heard this before so I went and looked it up and was surprised to find it confirmed in many places. Do people who live closer to the mosque go on walks away from the mosque and then turn back, so they can walk further to get there? Are real estate prices effected by mosques being built? If a mosque is built next door to you, does the value of your house go down in muslim lands? Or is this more a rule that most muslims are relaxed on?

Also, does this apply to all travel or just walking? If you live a few cities away from the mosque and have to drive there, is living two cities away better than living one city away?
could just mean that the mosque values its parking spaces.

although thats looking at it just as a physical and practical worldly aspect.


also i recently met a body builder with green eyes. i work as a cashier and i found it quite intimidating.

not gay.

it was weird.

i have no idea.
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ardianto
09-21-2013, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Do people who live closer to the mosque go on walks away from the mosque and then turn back, so they can walk further to get there?
Good question, Pygo. It's remind me to my childish mind when I was kid.

I've heard scholar said "You will get reward from every step you take when you go to mosque". It made me assume I would get more reward if I walk 1000 steps than walk 500 steps. And I began to thinking to take round route to go to mosque, not straight route, just to make me get more reward. :D

But later after I learned more, I understood that I could not interpret what the scholar said about it literally and use math in this matter. One step that a Muslim take in walk 100 step to mosque may produce reward thousand times bigger than one step that another Muslim take in walk 1000 step to the mosque. It's depend on intention, sincerity, effort, etc. Not depend on how much step.

Are real estate prices effected by mosques being built?
Mosque is a common facility in large real estate in Muslim majority countries, and facilities in a real estate must be affect the houses price in this residential complex.

If a mosque is built next door to you, does the value of your house go down in muslim lands?
I've ever worked as property broker. The distance to mosque does not affect the house value. However, from my experience, non-Muslims usually avoid to buy or rent a house that very close to a mosque.
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