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AhmedSon
10-11-2013, 03:28 PM
Salam,
I have been told that Allah does not punish others for other people's sins. Well I have a question, Adam AS sinned by eating the forbidden Apple. He was sent to Earth as punishment but why am I here on Earth.

How is it fair that everyone should pay by living on Earth for Adam's sin. And also please don't say Allah put us here because Shaytaan challenged him by saying he would make us go astray, Shaytaan did a sin but why should I be punished for his sin. Why should I have all these temptations.

Also I do believe in Islam and I AM NOT TRYING TO CHALLENGE ISLAM but I honestly can't understand this and need some help. I'm finding it hard to cope with so many temptations and I don't think its fair.

Also if Allah is the most merciful why will he punish kufar in hell for the rest of their lives just because the only Islam they knew was the one they saw on Fox News.

Please help me!
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ion that dinar
10-12-2013, 12:41 PM
Salams.


Interesting question and a well clarified answer.


Mind if another input was added to all of this?




The questioner seems to be thinking outside of the box, "why has Almighty God not placed me here like Adam and asked me not to approach a tree?". That being the case, maybe he wouldn't do it and therefore be sin-free and worry-free of committing a sin, because that's the only thing that he was told not to do.


In order to understand easier, it's best to apply some necessary facts.

Adam and Eve were perfect beings, speaking the perfect language, behaving perfectly and knowing the names of everything. Their morals were above perfect, without any knowledge of how foul a human mind can be. Unlike todays generation for example, where people ask the silliest questions while neglecting the commandments they learned from the Blessed Quran.

So being perfect as they are, they were prohibited from approaching a "tree", and not from hurting each other or any of the things that people these days have a hard time staying away from.


All of this took place on earth, so sinning was already possible. Allah Almighty did say after they committed the sin that they will be enemies to each other on earth for a while. But one should not blame Adam for all of mankind living in a place where evil exists.


But why not right? That was after all declared after he sinned.

The question has already been answered though, sinning was already possible. So because they sinned, they were simply the first to be informed of this "enmity" between humans, which is for the most part stirred up by invisible demonic forces (Shaitans).


Hopefully this clarified some things.

Peace.
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heisone1
10-17-2013, 11:36 AM
This section of the forum is very important. Many of our false beliefs lead us to doubt things. Its good to clarify it.
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Nur Student
10-18-2013, 12:10 PM
What wisdom does it spring from, Adam (Upon whom be peace) being expelled from Paradise and some of mankind, the sons of Adam, being sent to Hell? What was the reason for it?

T h e A n s w e r :
The reason for it concerns the charging of duties: the duty with which Adam was charged yielded such results as the unfolding of all human spiritual progress and the revealing of all human potentialities and man’s essential nature being a comprehensive mirror to all the divine names. If he had remained in Paradise, his rank would have been fixed like that of the angels; man’s potentialities would not have been disclosed. In any case, the angels, with their unchanging ranks, are numerous and there is no need for man to perform their sort of worship. Since divine wisdom required a realm of accountability commensurate with the potentialities of man, who would traverse infinite degrees, he was expelled from Paradise for his well-known sin, sin being the requirement of human nature and contrary to that of the angels. That is to say, just as it was pure wisdom and pure mercy that Adam should be expelled from Paradise, so is it just and right that the unbelievers should be sent to Hell.

The unbeliever only committed only one sin in his short life, but the sin comprised infinite wrongdoing. For unbelief is an insult to the whole universe; it negates the value of all beings, it denies the testimony to divine unity of all creatures, and is contempt towards the divine names, the manifestations of which are to be seen in the mirrors of beings. Therefore, in order to avenge the rights of beings on the unbeliever, their monarch, the All-Compelling One of Glory, casts the unbelievers into Hell, and this is pure right and justice. For an infinite crime demands infinite punishment. ~ Bediuzzaman
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observer
10-18-2013, 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by Nur Student
What wisdom does it spring from, Adam (Upon whom be peace) being expelled from Paradise and some of mankind, the sons of Adam, being sent to Hell? What was the reason for it?

T h e A n s w e r :
The reason for it concerns the charging of duties: the duty with which Adam was charged yielded such results as the unfolding of all human spiritual progress and the revealing of all human potentialities and man’s essential nature being a comprehensive mirror to all the divine names. If he had remained in Paradise, his rank would have been fixed like that of the angels; man’s potentialities would not have been disclosed. In any case, the angels, with their unchanging ranks, are numerous and there is no need for man to perform their sort of worship. Since divine wisdom required a realm of accountability commensurate with the potentialities of man, who would traverse infinite degrees, he was expelled from Paradise for his well-known sin, sin being the requirement of human nature and contrary to that of the angels. That is to say, just as it was pure wisdom and pure mercy that Adam should be expelled from Paradise, so is it just and right that the unbelievers should be sent to Hell.

The unbeliever only committed only one sin in his short life, but the sin comprised infinite wrongdoing. For unbelief is an insult to the whole universe; it negates the value of all beings, it denies the testimony to divine unity of all creatures, and is contempt towards the divine names, the manifestations of which are to be seen in the mirrors of beings. Therefore, in order to avenge the rights of beings on the unbeliever, their monarch, the All-Compelling One of Glory, casts the unbelievers into Hell, and this is pure right and justice. For an infinite crime demands infinite punishment. ~ Bediuzzaman

I read an interesting argument a while back. It compared 2 people. The first is a terrible person, he treats other people with contempt, murders and steals with impunity yet shortly before he dies he starts to believe in god he converts to Islam.

The second person is good to everybody, he is helpful, kind and does a lot of work for charity. His whole life is led in this way, yet he doesn't believe in god.

Now, according to the Islam, the first guy has his sins erased correct? So he has more right to get into heaven than the second, who will burn and be tortured forever in hell. How is that justice?
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جوري
10-18-2013, 02:46 PM
Originally Posted by observer
How is that justice?
asking for forgiveness doesn't exempt one from paying for their sins for instance one who has murdered and is found guilty should be sentenced to death-- whether or not their repentance is sincere that is an issue between them and God in the hereafter .. also we don't know whether or not sins are forgiven that is contingent upon many things as stated sincerity of repentance is one of them..
what is a greater conundrum to me is how an atheist can live committing sins, getting away with it with no worldly justice and then dying and not having to be accountable to any of it!

best,
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Hulk
10-18-2013, 02:55 PM
Originally Posted by observer
I read an interesting argument a while back. It compared 2 people. The first is a terrible person, he treats other people with contempt, murders and steals with impunity yet shortly before he dies he starts to believe in god he converts to Islam.

The second person is good to everybody, he is helpful, kind and does a lot of work for charity. His whole life is led in this way, yet he doesn't believe in god.

Now, according to the Islam, the first guy has his sins erased correct? So he has more right to get into heaven than the second, who will burn and be tortured forever in hell. How is that justice?
Before you say that the argument is "interesting" or say "How is that justice?", do you first know what are the criterion in Islam for someone to be accepted into heaven? or sent into hell? Seems that you don't, so how then can you say "Now according to Islam", when you lack basic knowledge of such things?

Shouldn't you first ask about the criterions first before putting forth the "argument"?

Is it not possible that a person could live his whole life in darkness and only find light right before he dies? And is it not possible that a person could spend each day doing a lot of good for others and yet his intention all along merely to make a name for himself or anything other than what is sincere? There are so many possible contexts that you ignore, so it is hard (for me at least) to give a short and direct response.
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observer
10-18-2013, 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by Hulk
Shouldn't you first ask about the criterions first before putting forth the "argument"?
I thought I'd done so by asking if my statement was correct - apologies if that wasn't clear. I've read on here about the idea of conversion erasing sins so was asking based on that.

Does conversion wash you clean of your sins?
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جوري
10-18-2013, 03:17 PM
Originally Posted by observer
Does conversion wash you clean of your sins?
I have answered that question for you already. We've no way of splitting open people's chests and seeing what lies in their hearts!
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Nur Student
10-18-2013, 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by observer
I read an interesting argument a while back. It compared 2 people. The first is a terrible person, he treats other people with contempt, murders and steals with impunity yet shortly before he dies he starts to believe in god he converts to Islam.

The second person is good to everybody, he is helpful, kind and does a lot of work for charity. His whole life is led in this way, yet he doesn't believe in god.

Now, according to the Islam, the first guy has his sins erased correct? So he has more right to get into heaven than the second, who will burn and be tortured forever in hell. How is that justice?
Belief is not simply to utter a few words of shaadah (testimony), but a talisman that transforms the hearts and minds completely. I will further clarify this statement if you ask. Yet, what I want to focus on now is the nature of unbelief, how a great crime it is, and why it necessitates an infinite Hell.

There is no contradiction between the existence and ghastly torments of Hell, and infinite mercy, true justice, and wisdom with its balance and absence of waste. Indeed, mercy, justice, and wisdom require its existence. For to punish a tyrant who tramples the rights of a thousand innocents and to kill a savage animal who tears to pieces a hundred cowed animals, is for the oppressed a thousandfold mercy within justice. While to pardon the tyrant and leave the savage beast free, is for hundreds of wretches a hundredfold pitilessness in place of that single act of misplaced mercy.

Similarly, among those who will enter Hell is the absolute disbeliever. For through his disbelief and denial he both transgresses the rights of the Divine Names, and through denying the testimony of beings to those Names, he transgresses their rights, and by denying the elevated duties of glorification of creatures before the Divine Names he violates their rights, and through denying their being mirrors to and responding with worship to the manifestation of Divine dominicality, which is the purpose of the universe’s creation and a reason for its existence and continuance, he transgresses their rights in a way. His disbelief is therefore a crime and wrong of such vast proportions it may not be forgiven, and deserves the threat of the verse,

God forgives not [the sin of] joining other gods with Him. (Qur’an, 4:48, 116)

Not to cast him into Hell would comprise innumerable instances of mercilessness to innumerable claimants whose rights had been transgressed, in place of a single misplaced act of mercy. Just as those claimants demand the existence of Hell, so do Divine dignity and majesty, and tremendousness and perfection most certainly demand it.

Yes, if a worthless rebel who assaults the people says to the proud ruler of the place: “You can’t put me in prison!”, affronting his dignity, if there is not a prison in the town, the ruler will have one made just to throw the ill-mannered wretch into it. In just the same way, through his disbelief the absolute disbeliever affronts seriously the dignity of Divine glory, and through his denial offends the splendour of His power, and through his aggression disturbs the perfection of His dominicality. Even if there were not many things necessitating the functions of Hell and many reasons for and instances of wisdom in its existence, it is the mark of that dignity and glory to create a Hell for disbelievers such as that, and to cast them into it.

Moreover, even the nature of disbelief makes known Hell. Yes, just as if the true nature of belief was to be embodied, it could with its pleasures take on the form of a private paradise, and in this respect gives secret news of Paradise; so disbelief, and especially absolute disbelief, and dissembling, and apostasy, are the cause of such dark and awful pains and spiritual torment that if they were to be embodied, they would become a private Hell for the apostate, and in this way tell of the greater Hell in concealed manner. The tiny truths in the seed-bed of this world produce shoots in the hereafter. Thus, this poisonous seed indicates that particular tree of Zaqqum, saying: “I am its origin. For the unfortunate who bears me in his heart, my fruit is a private sample of that Zaqqum-tree.”

Since disbelief is aggression against innumerable rights, it is certainly an infinite crime and deserves infinite punishment. Human justice considers a sentence of fifteen years imprisonment (nearly eight million minutes) to be justice for a one minute’s murder, and conformable with general rights and interests. Therefore, since one instance of disbelief is the equivalent of a thousand murders, to suffer torments for nearly eight thousand million minutes for one minute’s absolute disbelief, is in conformity with that law of justice. A person who passes a year of his life in disbelief deserves punishment for close on two million million eight hundred eighty thousand million minutes, and manifests the meaning of the verse,

They will dwell therein for ever
. (Qur’an, 93:8)

~ The Rays
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observer
10-18-2013, 04:59 PM
Thanks for the response Nur Student - the atheist's fate is fairly clear from what you've posted! It seems to suggest here though that you'll only be punished for your disbelief for a certain period of time (eight thousand million minutes for one minute's disbelief) rather than eternity - is that right?

Originally Posted by Nur Student
There is no contradiction between the existence and ghastly torments of Hell, and infinite mercy, true justice, and wisdom with its balance and absence of waste
There seems to me a pretty clear contradiction. If god is infinitely merciful then why does his mercy have limits?

Originally Posted by Nur Student
to kill a savage animal who tears to pieces a hundred cowed animals
I don't think this is a good comparison - god made the animal savage so why punish it for being that way?

I think the concept of heaven and hell is the most difficult part of religion for me to get my head round. On the one hand religions such as Islam preach that god is infinitely wise and merciful but then he's willing to punish and torture horrifically anyone who has been brought up differently. He is all powerful and all wise yet if someone doesn't believe in him then he is "affronted" and gets upset and punishes people. Why? It seems so petty and futile.

Likewise, a god who only rewards those who are brought up in a certain place doesn't seem just. The vast majority of followers of any religion are brought up in that religion - there are relatively few converts to any religion (considering all followers of that religion) so if god rewards muslims, he is in the main rewarding people born into muslim families. And if he is all powerful, he has chosen where people will be born. So why the huge bias against those born in non-muslim places to non-muslim parents, regardless of their actions?

I can accept (although I don't believe) the argument that there is a god who created the universe - we can't say 100% either way, but an angry, petulant god who tortures for all eternity those who weren't brought up to believe in a specific religion? That I can't accept.
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جوري
10-18-2013, 06:05 PM
Silly analogies then silly arguments based on silly analogies which are only ever concocted by simple minds who wish to draw satisfaction from simplistic conclusions or perhaps look for some reprieve as to why they should be exempt from propriety.


4:17 to top

4 17 1 -
Sahih International
The repentance accepted by Allah is only for those who do wrong in ignorance [or carelessness] and then repent soon after. It is those to whom Allah will turn in forgiveness, and Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

4:18 to top

4 18 1 -
Sahih International
But repentance is not [accepted] of those who [continue to] do evil deeds up until, when death comes to one of them, he says, "Indeed, I have repented now," or of those who die while they are disbelievers. For them We have prepared a painful punishment.


if you want to learn go to the source of guidance, or ask scholars or learn properly, don't bring your grievances into a forum!
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observer
10-18-2013, 06:25 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
Silly analogies then silly arguments based on silly analogies which are only ever concocted by simple minds who wish to draw satisfaction from simplistic conclusions or perhaps look for some reprieve as to why they should be exempt from propriety.

Why silly?

And I resent the implication that I act without "propriety".
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جوري
10-18-2013, 07:05 PM
Originally Posted by observer
Why silly?
what is created in your own mind and that which you expect anyone else to react and respond to as the premier premise or clause and nothing to do with the laws or the doctrine in actuality, or your opinion based on someone else's opinion is silly- I thought I amply hinted to that above and quoted directly from the Quran. If you want an explanation to the verses above you should be schooled in that not forumed in that.

your resentment otherwise is a nonissue either way- we only conclude based on your writing what you do or don't do is inconsequential and you'll be accounted for it or perhaps according to you unaccounted for it so it doesn't bother me either way nor should it bother anyone else!
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Nur Student
10-18-2013, 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by observer
It seems to suggest here though that you'll only be punished for your disbelief for a certain period of time (eight thousand million minutes for one minute's disbelief) rather than eternity - is that right?
No, it is not. The examples and analogies given are only to make it easy to understand. Otherwise, unbelief is not only a thousand crimes, but a crime to the number of creatures. So, they will dwell there in for ever. (93:8)


Originally Posted by observer
If god is infinitely merciful then why does his mercy have limits?
His mercy and justice would be limited only if He didn't punish the oppressors. Not this way.


Originally Posted by observer
I don't think this is a good comparison - god made the animal savage so why punish it for being that way?
Again, don't take the analogy literally.


Originally Posted by observer
Islam preach that god is infinitely wise and merciful but then he's willing to punish and torture horrifically anyone who has been brought up differently.
With our simple minds, we are able to conclude that it is not fair to treat and judge exactly the same way two different persons who have two different backgrounds. How comes then we suppose that God will judge them exactly in the same way? Everybody will be held accountable for what they know. Therefore, let's leave the decision of who He will reward and punish to Him. It is not our business.

However, each person is responsible to believe in a Creator because it is an apparent, undeniable fact. After that, s/he is responsible to find out more about Him, and search for His signs. Having created the universe in such a wise and beautiful way, and the human being with mind and consciousness and in a great need of Him; He will definitely make Himself known to them.
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observer
10-18-2013, 10:47 PM
Originally Posted by Nur Student
With our simple minds, we are able to conclude that it is not fair to treat and judge exactly the same way two different persons who have two different backgrounds. How comes then we suppose that God will judge them exactly in the same way? Everybody will be held accountable for what they know. Therefore, let's leave the decision of who He will reward and punish to Him. It is not our business.

However, each person is responsible to believe in a Creator because it is an apparent, undeniable fact. After that, s/he is responsible to find out more about Him, and search for His signs. Having created the universe in such a wise and beautiful way, and the human being with mind and consciousness and in a great need of Him; He will definitely make Himself known to them.
This idea at least seems fairer, that god would weigh up someone's background etc. before choosing paradise or hell. But with the idea that it's not our place to judge who will go to hell or to heaven, why do so many religious people spend so much time denouncing others and dictating "you are going to hell because you did a or b or c"?
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Nur Student
10-18-2013, 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by observer
But with the idea that it's not our place to judge who will go to hell or to heaven, why do so many religious people spend so much time denouncing others and dictating "you are going to hell because you did a or b or c"?
They tend to forget their own business and interfere in God's business unless they quote from His Word and His messengers.
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Native_Man
10-21-2013, 11:00 AM
Originally Posted by ion that dinar
Adam and Eve were perfect beings, speaking the perfect language, behaving perfectly and knowing the names of everything. Their morals were above perfect, without any knowledge of how foul a human mind can be.

So being perfect as they are, they were prohibited from approaching a "tree", and not from hurting each other or any of the things that people these days have a hard time staying away from.

But why not right? That was after all declared after he sinned.

How can there be sin before a law was given to man, to acknowledge sin?.
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ion that dinar
10-21-2013, 07:55 PM
Oh cool, a question.
Originally Posted by Native_Man
How can there be sin before a law was given to man, to acknowledge sin?.

It is best to make a few things clear before answering that question. You have totally missed the point.


Putting all other creations aside. Adam was put on earth without paying for anyone's sins. The devil was put into a separate interconnected realm.


Adam was created with morals, he was the first Prophet. He received help directly from Almighty God. That means he obviously knew what a bad action is, no need to "acknowledge" it.


But Shaitan was there too, who could only deceive him about one thing, The Tree. This tells you right away that Adam was prohibited from eating of it, he was also warned to not even approach it, probably so that it keeps Shaitan away from him.


Eventually Shaitan convinced Adam to eat from the tree, after which everything changed. He transgressed. Now he has to co-exist with Shaitan, who can deceive him into doing anything, not just eat from a tree.. and the only way to keep him away is to live perfectly. By practicing the true Islamic way of life.

SO, because it wasn't anymore just avoiding a tree, Almighty God informed them of this evil co-existence as something called "enmity", which will exist until the Day of Judgement. Or did you really think what was meant in the post you quoted is that Adam was simply informed that he sinned? LOL



Please don't ask anymore questions unless it is about considering realizing the religious truth. Peace.



P.S. Your username looks like "Naive_Man" at the first glance.


Peace and blessings be upon Adam and his family. Much love.
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Karl
10-27-2013, 09:38 AM
Originally Posted by observer
I read an interesting argument a while back. It compared 2 people. The first is a terrible person, he treats other people with contempt, murders and steals with impunity yet shortly before he dies he starts to believe in god he converts to Islam.

The second person is good to everybody, he is helpful, kind and does a lot of work for charity. His whole life is led in this way, yet he doesn't believe in god.

Now, according to the Islam, the first guy has his sins erased correct? So he has more right to get into heaven than the second, who will burn and be tortured forever in hell. How is that justice?
The first person sounds like ----.
The second person sounds like an annoying do-gooder. "judgment is mine" said the Lord. God doesn't like being ignored and not believed in and if the person was truly good they would be a believer.
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observer
10-27-2013, 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by Karl
The first person sounds like Saddam Husain.
The second person sounds like an annoying do-gooder. "judgment is mine" said the Lord. God doesn't like being ignored and not believed in and if the person was truly good they would be a believer.
So all non-muslims must be bad then according to that logic?
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Karl
10-27-2013, 10:29 PM
Originally Posted by observer
So all non-muslims must be bad then according to that logic?
Not quite, God is merciful but you have to believe in God for Him to give you paradise. If you don't believe in God you have chosen Hell.
Let me simplify this, let's say a man by his wits and strengths and by the grace of God becomes a great king, benevolent and wise. And says to his subjects "be loyal to me and I will give you land and a pleasant life" But some of his subjects are Marxists and reject him and go off into desolation and poverty because of their stubborn political ideas they condemn themselves to misery.
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Ahmad H
10-28-2013, 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by observer
So all non-muslims must be bad then according to that logic?
Originally Posted by Karl
Not quite, God is merciful but you have to believe in God for Him to give you paradise. If you don't believe in God you have chosen Hell.
Let me simplify this, let's say a man by his wits and strengths and by the grace of God becomes a great king, benevolent and wise. And says to his subjects "be loyal to me and I will give you land and a pleasant life" But some of his subjects are Marxists and reject him and go off into desolation and poverty because of their stubborn political ideas they condemn themselves to misery.
This concept is simpler and more comprehensive than the example you gave. Everyone does good deeds in one form or another, believer or non-believer. This much is true. People do so in varying degrees. However, in the sight of Allah, His attribute of Rahim (Mercy) is only extended to those who believe in Him, thus, the good deeds of those who believe in Him are accepted by Him, but those who do not believe in Allah and do good deeds, their deeds are not recorded as good, because they not do them for the sake of Allah.

Our lower self, the animal self, cannot be broken away from, unless we do good deeds for Allah's pleasure. This is because all people do good deeds even if they don't believe in Allah. Also, animals have a sense for goodness as well. They take care of their young, they support each other in groups and protect one another, they have some sense of decency, albeit in other ways besides what humans have. Thus, humans doing good just for the sake of it, is not good in itself. To break away from the lower self (nafs), the animal-like self, is to do good deeds for Allah alone.

Islam establishes that the only way to break away from our lower animal passions, and doing things merely for the sake of it, is to do them for a higher purpose. What higher purpose can we have to do anything except to do them for the sake of the Highest Being in all existence? If we do things for His sake, and not for ourselves only and mere self-gratification, then we have achieved a much higher state of good than being just at the animal level, doing good merely because it feels right.

Put it this way, all of humanity does not agree on what is good. But if we follow the laws Allah revealed to us, for which He knows best what humans should do and act like, then we will all achieve one doctrine of good for the highest purpose, and humanity will have greater peace. Doing things merely because we feel good about them isn't a higher purpose, because everyone feels different about everything. Everyone should know for a fact what is good, and act according to it because they must do so for the good of all humanity, as well as for the sake of the Highest Being.

Logically, as a believer, we are convinced there is a Higher Being. If we do things for humanity and not for this Highest Being, then we are neglecting our duty as being the product of His work. It is just like disobeying your parents when they know what is right for you in something, and rejecting them on the basis that you feel something is right, while your parents are clearly 100% right on the issue. The All-Knowing Being knows everything, and thus what is best for humanity. Thus, doing what He says is absolutely necessary, and it is the most logical thing to do.

This is the concept of goodness in Islam, and the logical reasoning behind following the laws which Allah revealed.

If I failed to make things clear here, let me know.
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Abz2000
10-28-2013, 07:34 AM
Assalamu'alaikum wr wb,
It wasn't "just because of Adam's sin", Allah had planned the test of the extra-intelligent being (into whom he breathed of His own spirit with the ability to think, decide and innovate for itself - "tell me the names of these") long before put Adam on earth (innee jaaa'ilun fil ardi khaleefah) to take the responsibilities delegated to him by Allah and implement the rules of Allah over all creation as a capable agent.
This was a different species, a species able to learn how to innovate and fly, stay under water for years, and communicate with the other side of the planet in seconds).
The test of this intelligence is there - not just because of Adam, adam occupies the first part of this accumulative test.
Each soul is held in pledge for is own deeds and the situation it finds itself in means that not committing faults is impossible. How it steers through is taken into account in spite of the ultimate result of his action, and it is the grace of Allah that delivers him, not his deeds. (Man always need a bailout).
Even the prophet Muhammad pbuh is reported to have told us that not even he will be able to enter paradise wit his deeds, only the bounty and grace of Allah will deliver him (pbuh).
And that if we didn't make mistakes and repent, Allah would has changed us for those imperfect people who did, for Allah loves "attawwabeen".

If you know anyone who spends loads of amounts of his life in prison, he'd pobabl tell you that those who keep saying "I'm innocent, it's not fair" not only don't get anywhere, but even get bullied" whereas the wise one puts his head down, starts praying and learning, doing what he can and gains as much at he can. He accepts the reality of his city til ant does aha he can to alleviate the handicaps.

This world is a prison, we can think positive or moan, and moaning to other prisoners doesn't help much.
---------

BUSH: I believe the phrase burdens of the office is overstated. You know, it's kind of like, why me? Oh, the burdens, you know. Why did the financial collapse have to happen on my watch? It's just pathetic isn't it - self pity. And I don't believe President-elect Obama will be full of self pity.



-----

We just have to do our best and BEG Allah for forgiveness, strength and assistance,
we can leave this prison happily. Whereas if we think we're self sufficient and that we can just become friends of Shaytaan and forget who we are, become ungrateful kaafirs, the loss is our own because the balance will tip in favour of the believers.

We need to accept that the temptations are a reality, someimes falling into them is a reality, ant that trusting in Allah and not leaving His party is also a reality, in spite of our perceived despair. so let's accept that reality and work to make that reality easier to handle, because kufr will just debase us to helpless animals at the mercy of those animals physically stronger than us.

The Noble Qur'an: An-Nisa 4:119
...And whoever takes Shaitân (Satan) as a Walî (protector or helper) instead of Allâh, has surely suffered a manifest loss.


:

The Noble Qur'an: Ash-Shura 42:9
Or have they taken (for worship) Auliyâ' (guardians, supporters, helpers, protectors, etc.) besides Him? But Allâh, He Alone is the Walî (Protector, etc.). And it is He Who gives life to the dead, and He is Able to do all things.

This is how the prophets accepted it:

5. "Our Lord! Make us not a trial for the disbelievers, and forgive us, Our Lord! Verily, You, only You are the All-Mighty, the All-Wise."

Certainly, there has been in them an excellent example for you to follow, for those who look forward to (the Meeting with) Allâh (for the reward from Him) and the Last Day. And whosoever turn away, then verily, Allâh is Rich (Free of all wants), Worthy of all Praise.
Quran 60:5-6

If in doubts:


Indeed, Allah will admit those who believe and do righteous deeds to gardens beneath which rivers flow. Indeed, Allah does what He intends.
22:15


Whoever should think that Allah will not support [Prophet Muhammad] in this world and the Hereafter - let him extend a rope to the ceiling, then cut off [his breath], and let him see: will his effort remove that which enrages [him]?
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observer
10-28-2013, 03:21 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmad H
Everyone does good deeds in one form or another, believer or non-believer. This much is true. People do so in varying degrees. However, in the sight of Allah, His attribute of Rahim (Mercy) is only extended to those who believe in Him, thus, the good deeds of those who believe in Him are accepted by Him, but those who do not believe in Allah and do good deeds, their deeds are not recorded as good, because they not do them for the sake of Allah

Well, then it would seem to me that the good deeds of a non-believer are better. I mean, you as a muslim are doing good things because you think that god is taking note and that you will get into paradise for doing them. Whenever I do a good deed, I do it for its own sake - I get no future benefit or reward in my mind.

So, muslims then are doing good deeds because they want to get into heaven - they get a reward for doing good things. Is doing a good deed to get a reward not less altruistic than a good deed with no hope of a reward?

If I told you I'd give you 10 dollars to help someone and you did the deed because of the money, is that not a worse reason than someone who just helped the person because they felt that it was the right thing to do?
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ardianto
10-28-2013, 03:47 PM
Originally Posted by observer
So, muslims then are doing good deeds because they want to get into heaven - they get a reward for doing good things. Is doing a good deed to get a reward not less altruistic than a good deed with no hope of a reward?

If I told you I'd give you 10 dollars to help someone and you did the deed because of the money, is that not a worse reason than someone who just helped the person because they felt that it was the right thing to do?
My Islamic teacher said that if I helped the needy just because I expect reward, probably I would not get anything because my intention was not sincere. But if I helped the the needy because I feel it's my duty, In Shaa Allah, I would get reward although I didn't expect it.

:)
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Ahmad H
10-28-2013, 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by observer
So, muslims then are doing good deeds because they want to get into heaven - they get a reward for doing good things. Is doing a good deed to get a reward not less altruistic than a good deed with no hope of a reward?
The reward of Heaven is the closeness to God. The other pleasures are secondary. Besides, my point as to demonstrate that not very many people do good deeds for the sake of it. Deep down, they are done for self-gratification. They are never truly done for just the sake of it by Atheists. So the good deeds done by a Muslim will always be better than the deed of an Atheist.

Think of it this way, if one person thinks helping someone is good, another will think taking from them is good, as long as they get away with it. In both cases, a person will feel that self-gratification. Granted, the latter feels gratification through obtaining something, which may not be considered equal. Yet, both types of people exist and they are merely doing what they do for their own sake. Just because you don't want a reward from God, doesn't mean you reward yourself by liking what you did for others, even if you didn't expect reward from them.

To be quite honest, my understanding here stems more from believing that no one does anything unless they feel good about it. Thus, nothing good is ever done just because you consider it good, it is because you feel good about it. Is that not true? That in itself is a reward. But the true reward is with Allah. Those may be good deeds in themselves,I am not denying that at all, but those deeds are wasted because they are not counted with God. So then when you die, those deeds are not counted for you to keep you protected from the Fires of Hell.

The whole point of Islam is to get everyone to agree on what is right, and not determine it ourselves. People never all agree on what is right or wrong. This is why good deeds for the sake of it cannot help humanity prosper in this world, and definitely do not make them prosper in the Hereafter. Reward comes in many forms, so this idea that people of religion doing good deeds does not amount to as much good as Atheists who do good just for the sake of it is total rubbish.
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Abz2000
10-28-2013, 09:21 PM
Of course you should feel good about doing good,
I'm quite certain you shouldn't feel bad about it,
Everyone has to feel good,
Should they spend their "feel good" hormones for just when they're gratifying their body?
Or for when they do something bad maybe………

........God knows, but I think some of it should be saved for when you do good stuff Innit???
then maybe you'll do in again. :)

And of course you may do it just for the sake of it or because you feel the duty,
because it can become a second nature, you don't think twice or try to think hard for an intention.
You know it pleases Allah anyway and that's more than enough of an intention.
You even get rewarded for conjugal relations with your spouse, because you would have been punished if you did the wrong person.

If you're told you're going to get something good, you're obviously going to want it, and if you didn't want it, you'd be like an ungrateful kaafir see?


And of course yes, you can do it expecting a reward, even Allah give us deals in the Quran, also offers and bonuses, if we weren't allowed to want a reward, we wouldn't have been offered all these treats.

Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.
Quran 9:111

It's an actual transaction,
Yet, we can't expect guaranteed paradise for anything else, because the deeds are not enough.
And the offer of guaranteed paradise even comes with 70 free tickets for bust-a$s but believing family and friends
(Offer doesn't extend to disbelievers though).

But it's better they just do it for the sake of Allah's good pleasure and don't make demands and just hope for loads of grace (at an hour of wrath).


76:8
to top

Yusuf Ali
And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive,-
76:9
to top

Yusuf Ali
(Saying),"We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.
76:10
to top

Yusuf Ali
"We only fear a Day of distressful Wrath from the side of our Lord."
76:11
to top

Yusuf Ali
But Allah will deliver them from the evil of that Day, and will shed over them a Light of Beauty and (blissful) Joy.



Bottom line, try to do good anyways, and don't let the devil confuse you with loads of red tape,

With The kaafirs and everyone else, they'll be asked to seek the reward of the god they worshipped, and their gods will be put in front of them, and Allah will reward His servants who served Him.
how's that unfair?
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Karl
10-28-2013, 10:12 PM
Good and bad are also very subjective. People may think they do good but what they are doing could be totally evil. Or they use a façade of goodness and righteousness for an evil agenda. I tend to measure a persons goodness by their wealth. If they are very rich they must have a hard heart not to share it with the less fortunate. The more money they covet the more evil they are. As the plutocratic elite they have become evil absolute, manipulating the world for their benefit alone, no matter how horrendous the consequences for the rest of us are.
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M.I.A.
10-29-2013, 09:28 AM
Originally Posted by AhmedSon
Salam,
I have been told that Allah does not punish others for other people's sins. Well I have a question, Adam AS sinned by eating the forbidden Apple. He was sent to Earth as punishment but why am I here on Earth.

How is it fair that everyone should pay by living on Earth for Adam's sin. And also please don't say Allah put us here because Shaytaan challenged him by saying he would make us go astray, Shaytaan did a sin but why should I be punished for his sin. Why should I have all these temptations.

Also I do believe in Islam and I AM NOT TRYING TO CHALLENGE ISLAM but I honestly can't understand this and need some help. I'm finding it hard to cope with so many temptations and I don't think its fair.

Also if Allah is the most merciful why will he punish kufar in hell for the rest of their lives just because the only Islam they knew was the one they saw on Fox News.

Please help me!
I have been told that Allah does not punish others for other people's sins. Well I have a question, Adam AS sinned by eating the forbidden Apple. He was sent to Earth as punishment but why am I here on Earth.

thats hilarious, i cant even give an answer to that.

i dont know why you were born on earth rather than just waking up in heaven.

but stay away from apples.

but if you already want apples then its only going to get worse apparently.


also there are like 7 billion people in the world, how selfish of you.

its just one of those things im afraid,

How is it fair that everyone should pay by living on Earth for Adam's sin. And also please don't say Allah put us here because Shaytaan challenged him by saying he would make us go astray, Shaytaan did a sin but why should I be punished for his sin. Why should I have all these temptations.

lol at having the obvious answer and yet blaming the fall guy..

i mean you probably never would have existed if it were not for adam pbuh.
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Nur Student
11-08-2013, 06:45 AM
Originally Posted by observer
If I told you I'd give you 10 dollars to help someone and you did the deed because of the money, is that not a worse reason than someone who just helped the person because they felt that it was the right thing to do?
Where does the feeling of 'doing good' come from? What makes people feel doing the right thing?

In your example, you said that the person helped only because he felt it was the right thing to do? How and why feeling so? What is the source?
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Ohmz
11-22-2013, 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by AhmedSon
Salam,I have been told that Allah does not punish others for other people's sins. Well I have a question, Adam AS sinned by eating the forbidden Apple. He was sent to Earth as punishment but why am I here on Earth.How is it fair that everyone should pay by living on Earth for Adam's sin. And also please don't say Allah put us here because Shaytaan challenged him by saying he would make us go astray, Shaytaan did a sin but why should I be punished for his sin. Why should I have all these temptations.Also I do believe in Islam and I AM NOT TRYING TO CHALLENGE ISLAM but I honestly can't understand this and need some help. I'm finding it hard to cope with so many temptations and I don't think its fair.Also if Allah is the most merciful why will he punish kufar in hell for the rest of their lives just because the only Islam they knew was the one they saw on Fox News.Please help me!
Salaam bro. It’s true, Islam teaches that God does not punish a person for the sins of another. Sounds like you’re quite familiar with the Adam & Eve’s story. When speaking about this subject, it’s important to understand who sinned - Iblis sinned by disobeying God’s command to bow down to Adam, and Adam & Eve sinned by eating the forbidden fruit. When God asked why Iblis did not bow down, Iblis replied in arrogance, and was cast out of Paradise and was destined for the Fire. During that moment, Iblis claimed that God put him in error, but asked God to postpone his punishment, which God agreed to. Satan did not get punished in full for his sin, God is postponing the punishment for his sin til the day of Resurrection – just like Satan requested. Satan then vowed to God that he’d lead mankind astray.When Adam & Eve were deceived by Satan, they didn’t try to excuse their sin by claiming Satan deceived them. 7:23, Adam & Eve claimed that they wronged themselves, and stated the importance of God’s forgiveness and guidance to them. 20:121-122 tells us that God was forgiving towards Adam & Eve, and gave them guidance. So we know Iblis’s sin will be with him till the day of Judgement, but Adam & Eve’s sin was forgiven, instead of being sent to Hell, they were placed on Earth.There are plenty of things to enjoy on Earth, but as you pointed out there are also many hardships. It’s important to realise that Earth is not a punishment for us, but it is a mercy from God and a means to enter Paradise. If you think about it, this story is very beautiful actually – God must have planned all of this to happen. God must have known what Satan would do, and yet he placed the Forbidden Tree in heaven anyway, and he also then granted Satan’s request to postpone his Judgement, and lets Satan try to lead us all astray – which only makes sense if this world is a test of faith. If in God’s eyes, everyone is worthy of punishment for Adam’s sin, why are we being tested instead of punished?I think it’s safe to say that God’s plans were to create many humans, and not just Adam & Eve. God wished to grant us all true free will as well, God did not want to limit/force our choices. God intended for Adam & Eve to be a couple, and to reproduce – and God did not want to force their children into worshipping God. Out of free will, some people would have inevitably chosen to disobey God – and God did not want these people to reside in Paradise, so a means to separate the good from the bad would logically be needed, unless God wished to force everyone to be Muslims (which he did not). This world isn’t a punishment, it’s a test of faith, and a means for us to learn about ourselves, eachother, and our Creator.Adam & Eve in Paradise, God gave them quite a lot of knowledge, EG they knew the names of the Angels when they were created. We don’t know the full extent of the knowledge God granted them, but we can see that they were still unaware of certain things (EG their private parts, shame etc). Also, in Paradise Adam & Eve didn’t follow Islam as define by the Quran, they had a very small and simple set of rules compared to those found in the Quran. We can see that they began to learn of more things after they ate the forbidden fruit, and God forgave them, and provided them guidance so they could learn more and become more aware of things. God also provided them and their children a temporary place to live whilst they learn and familiarise themselves with the complete set of rules God intended for mankind to follow (Quran), and not a simple/specialised set of rules (IE don’t eat the fruit). For Muslims today, we know the Quran is God’s complete and final religion – so it’s only logical for us to believe that God didn’t intend for Adam & Eve to live in their original pre-sin state for eternity, with the same laws that they had at that time.Adam & Eve were not really punished for disobeying God, their situation changed, and instead of sending them to the hellfire - God provided them with a safe shelter for them to come to terms with the new knowledge that God’s plans gave to them when they ate the fruit (IE shame, repentance). God also continued to gradually supply mankind with guidance, until of course God’s complete guidance was revealed. Adam’s descendants aren’t being punished for Adam’s sin – Adam himself wasn’t even truly punished for the sin, but was forgiven. We are being tested not punished. Adam & Eve were given a chance to re-enter Paradise – this time with a massive family, and with much more knowledge than they had before they committed their 1st sin, and in a more aware state than they were in before the 1st sin. This world is a mercy in the form of a test.If I’ve said anything that sounds incorrect, please point it out.
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