PDA

View Full Version : Is all stuff kuffr in school?



new2010
10-21-2013, 07:05 PM
Dear brothers and sisters:sl: ,

as many of you may know, in western countries they teach students some theories about evolution and so on and goes million years ago to the past. They teach theory that somethings can be created from nothing, what is nonsense and obvious kuffr to believe in this, that is clear. But there are theories which say something and I think subhanAllah, Allah has made it that this happened so. Is that or right or kuffr as well? I do not understand how they can think to proof something what happend million years ago but not be able to belief what Allah has revealed 1434 years ago? Or same in biology it is really interesting how all that cells are working and so on, but how can we see what is absolutely kuffr and what is legitimate to belief. What is about to belief in different climatic zones over the past milion years? I mean they are talking that world exists for more than milliards of years and I think that can not be true or can it? Do not know whether dunya exists before Adam .a.s came, but I do not think so because he was drived out of paradies so Allah created dunya for that purpose. Can you write insha Allah something about that?
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
ardianto
10-22-2013, 12:25 AM
:wa:

"And [mention, O Muhammad], when your Lord said to the angels, "Indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority." They said, "Will You place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare Your praise and sanctify You?" Allah said, "Indeed, I know that which you do not know."
(Sahih Internation. Al-Baqarah: 30)

Yes, the earth had been created before the creation of human (the successive authority), and Muslim scientists in my place said that the universe had been created billions years before existence of human. Human are the new comer on the earth that came later after plants and animals. There's no Muslims in my place that deny it.

Whether the universe created in six days?. Ulama in my place said that the time in heaven is different than the time on earth. So, six days in heaven is billions years on earth.

About human. There are various theories about human evolution, which few theories say that modern human are not descendant of primordial primate, but the new comer that come from 'mysterious place'.

In my place we also learn about universe, biology, etc. We know process of the rain, we know how wind can blow, we know about cell, and we acknowledge these as the sign of the greatness of Allah.

" Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and earth, and the alternation of the night and the day, and the [great] ships which sail through the sea with that which benefits people, and what Allah has sent down from the heavens of rain, giving life thereby to the earth after its lifelessness and dispersing therein every [kind of] moving creature, and [His] directing of the winds and the clouds controlled between the heaven and the earth are signs for a people who use reason"
(Sahih Internation. Al-Baqarah: 164)

So, learn science do not make students in my place lose their iman, but even strengthen their iman.

Just try to be open-minded bro. So you will understand. :)
Reply

Nur Student
10-22-2013, 02:42 AM
In Kastamonu a group of high-school students came to me, saying: “Tell us about our Creator, our teachers do not speak of God.” I said to them: “All the sciences you study continuously speak of God and make known the Creator, each with its own particular tongue. Do not listen to your teachers; listen to them.

“For example, a well-equipped pharmacy with life-giving potions and cures in every jar weighed out in precise and wondrous measures doubtless shows an extremely skilful, practised, and wise pharmacist. In the same way, to the extent that it is bigger and more perfect and better stocked than the pharmacy in the market-place, the pharmacy of the globe of the earth with its living potions and medicaments in the jars which are the four hundred thousand species of plants and animals shows and makes known to eyes that are blind even —by means of the measure or scale of the science of medicine that you study— the All-Wise One of Glory, Who is the Pharmacist of the mighty pharmacy of the earth.

“To take another example; a wondrous factory which weaves thousands of sorts of cloth from a simple material doubtless makes known a manufacturer and skilful mechanic. In the same way, to whatever extent it is larger and more perfect than the human factory, this travelling dominical machine known as the globe of the earth with its hundreds of thousands of heads, in each of which are hundreds of thousands of factories, shows and makes known —by means of the measure or scale of the science of engineering which you study— its Manufacturer and Owner.

“And, for example... Click here to continue reading.
Reply

greenhill
10-22-2013, 03:45 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Whether the universe created in six days?.
Days is a 'metaphorical' term used to describe a period of time in this respect which became widely believed to mean exactly that, day as in earth days but in actuality means 'period'. The world was created in 6 periods and when everything was in place and ready, then Allah created man.

On the subjects learnt at school, I guess this is something which is obscured by history. But from what I learnt and gathered, there were ulterior motives behind the real reason for Western education system. First is the study of sciences that could help remove the 'absolute power' of the church and second that it is a method of indoctrination to put the power of thought to the masses. When they successfully reduced the power of the church, they went towards the indoctrination process and secularist agenda.

I mean there was a point in time when it was believed that to be a scientist we cannot believe in God although for a true muslim, nothing can disprove the Quran. Why is it that some quarters are seriously looking at finding extra terrestrials or aliens or life forms outside earth? (And if there were aliens discovered at Roswell, why is it covered up by the US gov? Not that I believe there was...:p) but it would be a big blow to the orthodox religions which claim that we are the only created being in the whole universe... If they found an alien, they would first throw it in the face of the Roman Catholic Church and ask them to please explain their claims about us being the only ones. Just like the time when they claimed the the sun travels around the earth or that the earth is in the centre of the universe which through science and observations were proven to be otherwise, hence the jumping on the bandwagon to find more proofs to bash the church doctrines.

Peace :shade:
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
observer
10-22-2013, 07:45 AM
Originally Posted by greenhill
But from what I learnt and gathered, there were ulterior motives behind the real reason for Western education system. First is the study of sciences that could help remove the 'absolute power' of the church and second that it is a method of indoctrination to put the power of thought to the masses. When they successfully reduced the power of the church, they went towards the indoctrination process and secularist agenda.
Hi, this is not true. Most of the great scientists throughout history have been religious - Newton, Darwin etc. were all very religious (Darwin held back publication of his theory of evolution for years in part because of his religious convictions, only finally publishing when someone else was about to publish something very similar).

As a consequence of scientific advance, it's true that much of the west has become less religious as we see that claims made in religious texts and by religious authorities do not match up with reality, but this wasn't the reason for studying science, it was an unforeseen by-product.

Even now, many scientists are religious, although most western scientists manage to reconcile the errors in their religion's teachings with the scientific truths that have been discovered.
Reply

ardianto
10-22-2013, 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by greenhill


Days is a 'metaphorical' term used to describe a period of time in this respect which became widely believed to mean exactly that, day as in earth days but in actuality means 'period'. The world was created in 6 periods and when everything was in place and ready, then Allah created man.
There are people who say that 6 days in the universe creation is refer to the universe that created in 6 periods according to scientific proofs. But science still and always developed. And if the new scientific proofs show that the universe created in 8 periods, then what?.

There are verses and hadith that cannot be ‘seen’ by science point of view but must still be let in metaphorical term that should be understood by religious understanding.

I disagree with Harun Yahya who describe that Seven Skies (Seven Heaven) are the seven layers in atmosphere, but I agree with the astronomer DR Thomas Djamaluddin from Muhammadiyah who says that the second until seventh sky are not in our universe.

The important thing that I have learned from science is, there are things in life that cannot be explained by science, and it's become the secret of Allah.


I mean there was a point in time when it was believed that to be a scientist we cannot believe in God although for a true muslim, nothing can disprove the Quran. Why is it that some quarters are seriously looking at finding extra terrestrials or aliens or life forms outside earth? (And if there were aliens discovered at Roswell, why is it covered up by the US gov? Not that I believe there was...:p) but it would be a big blow to the orthodox religions which claim that we are the only created being in the whole universe... If they found an alien, they would first throw it in the face of the Roman Catholic Church and ask them to please explain their claims about us being the only ones.
I'm always thinking that possible there are extra terrestrials in some other planets, although I'm always thinking that probably we would never meet those aliens in our life.

But if we could meet aliens?. I would not questioning my religion, but I would come to those aliens and greet them "Hello everybody, I'm a Muslim. Ever heard about Islam?. Okay, I'll explain". I guess, I would be in competition with some Christians who have same thought. :D

If we have strong Iman and open-mindedness, we don't need to afraid of science.

Peace. :)
Reply

Nur Student
10-22-2013, 04:37 PM
By aliens, do you mean jinn, angels and spriritual beings (ruh) or...? I think if there were any other conscious aliens except these three categories, there would be a mention about them in the Qur'an and/or hadith.

Allahu a'lamu bi's-sawaab! And Allah knows the best.
Reply

ardianto
10-22-2013, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Nur Student
By aliens, do you mean jinn, angels and spriritual beings (ruh) or...? I think if there were any other conscious aliens except these three categories, there would be a mention about them in the Qur'an and/or hadith.

Allahu a'lamu bi's-sawaab! And Allah knows the best.
What I mean is alien from other planets, like in movies. Not jinn, because I have meet few of them including one Muslim jinn.

I'm not kidding about meet the jinn.
Reply

Signor
10-22-2013, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
What I mean is alien from other planets, like in movies.
How those man made "aliens" will going to fit in our real world bro?Can you elaborate?
Reply

sister herb
10-22-2013, 05:53 PM
Salam alaykum

I have teached in the west biology and evolution theory to the muslims. I have told to them that this threory is against islam but... in the test do not mention it.

:omg:
Reply

Ahmad H
10-22-2013, 10:31 PM
The Holy Prophet (saw) advised Muslims to seek knowledge. The Muslims did do this a long time ago, and they learned a lot from the Greeks who were not believers. Let's take philosophy, we can learn methods of argumentation from it, but the arguments themselves are not necessarily useful in Islam. Nevertheless, knowing about them is still knowledge, and as long as this knowledge can be used for advancing worldly knowledge and spiritual knowledge without disobedience to Allah, then so be it.

As for theories which try to prove Allah is not there, such as creating from nothing - I do not believe that any of these disprove Allah's existence. Allah's Word does not conflict with His creation. Perhaps our knowledge of the Qur'an has been off, and we did not understand the meanings which the Sahaba (ra) had learnt from the Holy Prophet (saw). Some statements such as the heavens and the earth splitting open for the creation may have meanings besides what we previously understood. Not everything is literal, even the interpretations. The Holy Prophet (saw) must have been told things which scientists have observed some of, and we then come to understand the full meaning of the "heaven splitting apart" and "the earth splitting apart" as Ibn 'Abbas (ra) had explained. Remember, the Holy Prophet (saw) said some very far-reaching statements, and so did many commentators. Perhaps we need to look at them differently and see that the Heavens splitting apart refers to something and the earth splitting apart refers to something, but we originally did not know that.

That being said, even Allah's creating Adam (as) and the story behind it, as well as the explanations, mean something different. As far as I know, Imam Sirhindi (ra) has agreed with a vision which Hazrat Ibn Arabi (ra) had seen, in which he learnt that there have been many Adams (as). This agrees with the well-known fact that 124 000 Prophets are reported to have come into this world. That's a lot of religions, thus many cycles of humanity have come and gone. If it's one thing the Qur'an explains better than any other book ever can, it's that history repeats itself. Thus, even many Adams (as) came and went.

Coming back to learning these things in school, it is not unwise to learn these. The Westerners have forgot that behind all of these causes which they observe, the Hidden Hand behind all of this is Allah's. They simply do not acknowledge it. We do though. Their not acknowledging Allah's existence is their short-sightedness, because they cannot see Him. Since they cannot observe Allah with their eyes directly, they will never believe in Him. This is the major flaw in the scientific method. These people only rely on their eyes, and are blind in their hearts. The sight of their heart is gone, and it is definitely sealed by Allah. I have no doubt about that.

Just remember that Allah is the One Who causes everything, and His Hand has never been removed from any cause and effect in this universe. Whatever knowledge you obtain, learn it, then use it for the good of Islam. Turn everything right around and throw it back at them if they argue against Allah. Sometimes you have to fight fire with fire, so in order to do that, learn what they know.

Scientific knowledge is not evil in and of itself, it is merely that these scientists disbelieve in Allah. But at the same time, I know that many Muslims don't get the meaning behind Adam (as)'s story and the creation of mankind. A lot of metaphors are used, but many don't seem to get that. So keep that in mind.
Reply

greenhill
10-22-2013, 10:48 PM
Originally Posted by Nur Student
By aliens, do you mean jinn, angels and spriritual beings (ruh) or...? I think if there were any other conscious aliens except these three categories, there would be a mention about them in the Qur'an and/or hadith.
My thinking exactly


Originally Posted by ardianto
There are people who say that 6 days in the universe creation is refer to the universe that created in 6 periods according to scientific proofs. But science still and always developed. And if the new scientific proofs show that the universe created in 8 periods, then what?.
Ha ha. Not sure about that!

Originally Posted by ardianto
I disagree with Harun Yahya who describe that Seven Skies (Seven Heaven) are the seven layers in atmosphere,
Never really thought of challenging that but always believed that there is something else that has been missed. Possibly explained by astronomer Dr Thomas.....
Reply

ardianto
10-23-2013, 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by Signor
How those man made "aliens" will going to fit in our real world bro?Can you elaborate?
You missed my point.

When I was kid I was familiar with Erich Von Daniken books, also with Carl Sagan articles. But it doesn't mean I'm a person who believe to the movies which show that aliens are watching us now.

I said "possible" there are extra terrestrial in other planet, and "possible" means can be true can be not true. But if the aliens do really exist and we meet them, I would not questioning the existence of Allah and would not questioning religion. But I would accept it as the secret of Allah that I didn't know yet before.

:)
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!