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View Full Version : Homosexual Indoctrination in UK Schools - it's happening now



جوري
11-19-2013, 05:04 PM
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Anas Lewis
11-19-2013, 07:12 PM
Disgusting, subhannallah. I need to get out of this filthy country while I'm able. Make du'a that I do not die in this country plz. Jazaks.
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جوري
11-19-2013, 07:15 PM
Indeed.
Originally Posted by Anas Lewis
Disgusting, subhannallah.
Children aren't sexual beings by nature and this isn't only a transgression to how their parents see fit to raise their children as I know staunch WASPS who don't even let their children sit for sex education in middle school and yet here they target practically toddlers with acts of sexuality and sexual deviance.
This has no room in school whatsoever!
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LauraS
11-19-2013, 07:18 PM
---

As for the subject, I think children should be taught to accept gay people but I'm not sure about how they go about it in this video.
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faithandpeace
11-19-2013, 07:48 PM
Rather than focusing on what the resident non-believers here think about the topic, perhaps a knowledgeable brother or sister in Islam can shed some light on what Qur'an and Sunnah say about the topics of homosexuality and kaffir-led education for Muslim children.
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جوري
11-19-2013, 07:56 PM
Fact of the matter is I know tons of Non-Muslims who are appalled by this. In fact one of my preceptors was discussing how even on the children's channel and family channels this is become so common grounds to things neither he nor his kids feel their children should be exposed to. You've a right not to be exposed to this at school and definitely in your home they allege you can always switch the channel but these are programs targeting kids at home!
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Ammar67
11-19-2013, 08:54 PM
It's disturbing to think that such things could be taught in a public school; where are the morals?
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Karl
11-19-2013, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
Indeed.

Children aren't sexual beings by nature and this isn't only a transgression to how their parents see fit to raise their children as I know staunch WASPS who don't even let their children sit for sex education in middle school and yet here they target practically toddlers with acts of sexuality and sexual deviance.
This has no room in school whatsoever!
Sorry I do not agree with your first six words. Don't reply or you will probably be deleted. The moderator edited my post to make it look as if I agreed with you. A shocking abuse of power. Truth is truth, no matter how unpalatable it is to some people.
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LauraS
11-20-2013, 12:01 AM
Originally Posted by Ammar67
It's disturbing to think that such things could be taught in a public school; where are the morals?
But the fact is in a non-religious school homosexuality isn't considered as morally wrong. The small children aren't being taught about sex, just that two people of the same gender can be in love. For example the video showed a book where two princes fall in love, if it was a prince and princess falling in love it wouldn't be considered something sexual, just a fairy story.
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جوري
11-20-2013, 12:12 AM
If schools are allegedly non religious then why do they take holidays such as christmas & easter off? Fact of the matter is introducing the concept that a family unit is composed of two men or two women isn't just immoral it is down right devious to implant such ideas in their heads at such a tender age. It isn't the school's place to introduce lack of morality or sexuality into children's lives and although I do find the public school system an abomination, not everyone can afford private schools, doesn't mean that society at large has to conform to a devious minority's take on what is moral or immoral!
You're also in no position to speak for the majority and the majority of people aren't homos nor have they a desire to raise their kids as homos or wish to introduce the concept of sexuality through untrained teachers all together not mining certain sensibilities!
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faithandpeace
11-20-2013, 05:17 AM
If a child is having difficulty coping with family issues (whatever they may be) or if an older child (old enough to have sexual urges) thinks they are homosexual and any of these issues are bringing discomfort at school then the solution is for the child to approach the school's guidance counselor or a trustworthy teacher or other adult in the school about it so that it can be addressed. Family and sexuality issues of any sort usually are of a private and personal nature and don't belong being publicly aired in a school setting. I will say that I am strongly opposed to bullying so a child that happened to grow up in a same-sex family through no fault of his or her own or an older child who may be struggling with their own sexuality should not be treated unjustly whatsoever. That being said, it is not the school's role to promote these kinds of issues to a student body that a) is not old enough and b) with a moral code that may not be shared by the students' families. There is definitely an agenda and indoctrination going on as schools are often trying to teach a new version of morality that is very liberalized, modernized, and secularized when the school's actual job should be to teach reading, writing, and arithmetic. I do feel there is an agenda for the State to increasingly become more powerful than the family unit when it comes to child upbringing. Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia had a similar approach.
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ardianto
11-20-2013, 07:00 AM
Originally Posted by LauraS
But the fact is in a non-religious school homosexuality isn't considered as morally wrong. The small children aren't being taught about sex, just that two people of the same gender can be in love. For example the video showed a book where two princes fall in love, if it was a prince and princess falling in love it wouldn't be considered something sexual, just a fairy story.
I have few experiences when gay attracted to me. Yeah, might be because I looked attractive in their eyes.

But Alhamdulillah, I was strong in facing these seduction. It's because I realize that homosexuality is a sin and morally wrong. Imagine if I regard homosexuality is normal and morally acceptable?. Just want to say that their seductions were 'powerful'.

Now imagine if the boys are taught that homosexuality is not morally wrong and they believe it. What will happen when they are growing older and facing seduction from the men who attracted to them, or they being attracted to a man because they have been taught that man can be their partner in love?

Ever thinking about it?.
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جوري
11-20-2013, 07:27 AM
Originally Posted by faithandpeace
If a child is having difficulty coping with family issues (whatever they may be) or if an older child (old enough to have sexual urges) thinks they are homosexual and any of these issues are bringing discomfort at school then the solution is for the child to approach the school's guidance counselor or a trustworthy teacher or other adult in the school about it so that it can be addressed. Family and sexuality issues of any sort usually are of a private and personal nature and don't belong being publicly aired in a school setting. I will say that I am strongly opposed to bullying so a child that happened to grow up in a same-sex family through no fault of his or her own or an older child who may be struggling with their own sexuality should not be treated unjustly whatsoever. That being said, it is not the school's role to promote these kinds of issues to a student body that a) is not old enough and b) with a moral code that may not be shared by the students' families. There is definitely an agenda and indoctrination going on as schools are often trying to teach a new version of morality that is very liberalized, modernized, and secularized when the school's actual job should be to teach reading, writing, and arithmetic. I do feel there is an agenda for the State to increasingly become more powerful than the family unit when it comes to child upbringing. Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia had a similar approach.
I don't see how anyone would know that a kid is from a same sex 'marriage' or have homo tendencies unless they went out advertising it.
Today the son of one of those actresses announced he's transgender and deserves healthcare and recognition Etc etc - I don't know how anyone would be on to this morsel if s/he didn't announce it?
Do you go into a classroom advertising your sexuality? Hey everyone look at me I am heterosexual?
It's absurd and even more of an absurd debacle the other way too.
Stay closeted they want to be gay be gay all they want and shut the hell up about it!
That's what bars and nightclubs are for certainly no room for this at work or in a classroom!
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faithandpeace
11-20-2013, 11:43 AM
I don't think these things should be broadcasted in schools or workplaces either. Many advocates for homosexual rights argue that homosexuality is genetically determined at birth. Nothing genetic will make a person commit the act of sex with the same sex. Even if it is true that some people are genetically wired to have a dominant sexual attraction to the same sex, that does not mean they should or must follow that up with homosexual acts with societal approval. Islam prohibits this act and as Muslims we cannot condone it. I believe that social permissiveness allows for increasing numbers of people to live a homosexual lifestyle when it is doubtful that all these people are genetically wired with attractions only to the same sex. Look at how homosexual culture is plagued with alcohol, drugs, and prostitution, lewd dress and behavior including gender-bending acts that are insulting and offensive to women. There is nothing "genetic" about that. Even if there is a genetic issue in which some individuals are solely attracted to the same sex then they do have the option of celibacy. Islam is not going to budge on these matters. Allah (swt) gives His creations different trials to overcome but within following His laws.

I am aware of some research that indicates a bodily mismatch in sex where in some cases the sex cannot be determined or elements of both sexes are present or the body is predominately of one sex but the neurology of the brain is of the other sex. There have been cases where the doctors have chosen the sex incorrectly leading to a transsexual condition later on. I don't know much about what Islam says on this but I assume fatwas would take a medical approach to demonstrated scientific issues. Allah (swt) doesn't make mistakes but again may give people various trials at birth no different than any other disability. Yet what we have in the media and pop culture is this idea where anyone can be "transgender" and express themselves however they want with societal approval even though it is very doubtful the majority of such people truly have a medical or genetic issue.

I mention this all because I do believe that there are a minority of people out there who legitimately have these various struggles and are entitled to our compassion and willingness to help them. Yet such people are probably rather quiet and private about such matters in the first place. Yet what we as Muslims are seeing in our schools, workplaces, and communities is an ever increasing public proclomation and promotion that all sexualities and gender expressions are equally valid and this is a great fitna we must avoid. The louder and more aggressively something is shoved in our faces the more likely it is coming from Shaytan. And Allah (swt) knows best.
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ardianto
11-20-2013, 03:57 PM
Originally Posted by faithandpeace
I mention this all because I do believe that there are a minority of people out there who legitimately have these various struggles and are entitled to our compassion and willingness to help them
I know personally with few 'feminine gays' (shemale). Yes, they are in struggle. Honestly I have sympathy to them. They are different than few 'masculine gay' who I ever met.

But what shown in the video is not teaching the children to understand the problem of the homosexual people. The book about two princes and the drama clearly show indoctrination toward children to accept homosexuality as normal relationship. It can give big impact to children when they are going older. They will be easy to fall into homosexual relationship although not always being homo.
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جوري
11-20-2013, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by faithandpeace
I am aware of some research that indicates a bodily mismatch in sex
Yes there are cases of Androgen insensitivity syndrome where the receptors are malformed and renders them unresponsive to hormones that's a different story completely from homosexuals or transgender who for psychological not genetic reasons choose that lifestyle.
Either way sexuality or sexual preferences aren't a place for discussion with toddlers or in the work place!
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faithandpeace
11-21-2013, 01:39 AM
I think the point is that schools and workplaces and other venues are not the place for public discourse of this especially when it involves children. Sins, struggles, and issues in general that are personal are best kept private or discussed on an as-needed basis. There has been a definite increase in broadcasting homosexuality in the U.S. to the point where it is constantly on TV and radio and in the newspapers let alone in workplaces and schools. There is clearly an agenda going on. I believe it is part of a wider agenda to dumb down the masses into blindly accepting or rejecting whatever they are told so that they are more easily controllable. Targeting small children and children in general is likely a deliberate tactic to make the newest generation conditioned to the new order of society. A`udhu billahi min ash-Shaytan ir-rajeem.
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جوري
11-21-2013, 01:55 AM
There's this nasty K mart commercial jingle balls quite literally instead of jingle bells and you can imagine the depravity and it plays in family channels and k mart itself is meant as a family oriented store. So many people protested but I know they're failing in the face of this vile global agenda. You can't even watch family programs in peace everyone with their comments of 'lighten up' or 'what's the big deal' They have respect for nothing and honor nothing!
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faithandpeace
11-21-2013, 02:05 AM
Television is one of the most aggressive mediums they choose to push the agenda. I used to watch a fair amount of TV but by 2003 I finally turned off the set. While I have a TV set that is great for movies and things like that, I can now say that I have had a television-free home for 11 years as I don't even so much as turn it on to watch TV for even a second. Alhamdulillah! Since they switched from analog to digital I doubt the thing will even let me watch the cultural programming. It is amazing how much more constructive things one gets done and how much sanity they regain once they said goodbye to the tube. I encourage all fellow brothers and sisters and open-minded non-Muslims to do the same.
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Anas Lewis
11-21-2013, 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
I know personally with few 'feminine gays' (shemale). Yes, they are in struggle. Honestly I have sympathy to them. They are different than few 'masculine gay' who I ever met.
That sounds like a very feminist comment. And how many 'feminine gays' have you met? Isn't haram to be 'meeting' women?
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ardianto
11-21-2013, 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by Anas Lewis
That sounds like a very feminist comment. And how many 'feminine gays' have you met? Isn't haram to be 'meeting' women?
Those 'feminine gays' are not women, but men with feeling of a woman, and it made their life very hard.

I have met few but only two who close to me. When these two men met me they already dressed as male although still feminine in attitude. How hard their life?. They tried to back to their fitrah as men, struggle hard to hold their desire to men, but people still mocked them.

I have sympathy to the 'feminine gays' who I know personally not only because their problem, but especially because their respect to me. They never tried to do something 'strange' to me.
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theplains
11-21-2013, 10:36 PM
Does the Quran or Hadith say anything about homosexuality?

Peace,
Jim
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جوري
11-21-2013, 11:31 PM
It is a SIN and a transgression against the laws and commands of God!
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Karl
11-22-2013, 02:29 AM
Originally Posted by faithandpeace
I think the point is that schools and workplaces and other venues are not the place for public discourse of this especially when it involves children. Sins, struggles, and issues in general that are personal are best kept private or discussed on an as-needed basis. There has been a definite increase in broadcasting homosexuality in the U.S. to the point where it is constantly on TV and radio and in the newspapers let alone in workplaces and schools. There is clearly an agenda going on. I believe it is part of a wider agenda to dumb down the masses into blindly accepting or rejecting whatever they are told so that they are more easily controllable. Targeting small children and children in general is likely a deliberate tactic to make the newest generation conditioned to the new order of society. A`udhu billahi min ash-Shaytan ir-rajeem.
Yup, it is the rise of the Beast. A Christian has put out a book called Totalitaria by Ian Wishart, this could be an interesting read. He talks about the UN taking control of the world and breaking the world down to one world totalitarian hegemony.

The state has no rightful place forming the minds of the young, that is for the parents to do instead. And the parents should teach their offspring whatever they deem fit.
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جوري
11-22-2013, 02:30 AM
I find many of your posts far out but admire that you're bar none!
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Karl
11-22-2013, 02:45 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Those 'feminine gays' are not women, but men with feeling of a woman, and it made their life very hard.

I have met few but only two who close to me. When these two men met me they already dressed as male although still feminine in attitude. How hard their life?. They tried to back to their fitrah as men, struggle hard to hold their desire to men, but people still mocked them.

I have sympathy to the 'feminine gays' who I know personally not only because their problem, but especially because their respect to me. They never tried to do something 'strange' to me.
These effeminate featured boys and men are not real males at all, just females born with the wrong sex organs. In the past they were not persecuted, just written off as girls gone wrong. Masculine male with masculine male true homosexuality, on the other hand was frowned upon and considered extremely repugnant.
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LauraS
11-22-2013, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by Karl
These effeminate featured boys and men are not real males at all, just females born with the wrong sex organs. In the past they were not persecuted, just written off as girls gone wrong. Masculine male with masculine male true homosexuality, on the other hand was frowned upon and considered extremely repugnant.
So you believe they are females born in the wrong body? That's what leads to people changing sex.
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Karl
11-22-2013, 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by LauraS
So you believe they are females born in the wrong body? That's what leads to people changing sex.
Not exactly they have a females body except they will have small male genitalia. They are feminoids. Conversely someone that looks totally male but has female genitalia is called a masculoid. Changing their gender? Some do, some don't. But of course the gender change is cosmetic. Scientists do not have the knowledge to genetically alter them into the gender they want to be. The down side of cosmetic surgery is that they lose the ability to reproduce.
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Abdul-Halim265
11-23-2013, 09:34 PM
I don't think that subjects of sexuality have any place around children, but I do believe that homosexuality is NOT a sin, and that love is love, regardless of gender. If you love someone for their personality, appearance, attitudes, actions, etc, exactly the same as a heterosexual person would, then what on earth is the problem with tht? Of course they cannot naturally reproduce, but in terms of feelings, everything is the same.

I may anger some people when I say this, but, unfortunately, too many people who claim to follow the Muslim faith seem to be giving into hatred and hating people on the basis of their sexuality. A lot needs to change. Barbarically repressing homosexuality has no place in modern society. We're not living in the 11th century.

I say this as a Muslim, who isn't homosexual.

-A.H.265
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theplains
11-23-2013, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
It is a SIN and a transgression against the laws and commands of God!
How do you know? Do you learn it from the Bible instead of the Islamic scriptures?

Peace,
Jim
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Aprender
11-23-2013, 10:59 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul-Halim265
I don't think that subjects of sexuality have any place around children, but I do believe that homosexuality is NOT a sin, and that love is love, regardless of gender. If you love someone for their personality, appearance, attitudes, actions, etc, exactly the same as a heterosexual person would, then what on earth is the problem with tht? Of course they cannot naturally reproduce, but in terms of feelings, everything is the same.

I may anger some people when I say this, but, unfortunately, too many people who claim to follow the Muslim faith seem to be giving into hatred and hating people on the basis of their sexuality. A lot needs to change. Barbarically repressing homosexuality has no place in modern society. We're not living in the 11th century.

I say this as a Muslim, who isn't homosexual.

-A.H.265
So, because Muslims, Christians or Jews who believe in Allah and His law disagree with introducing homosexuality and promoting it as normal, moral, and not a sin, that is hateful? So reminding people of the law of Allah and trying to protect children from that behavior makes believers hateful? That's basically what you said.

I do not hate gay people. But if Allah says that it is a sin. Then it is a sin. It doesn't matter whether we're living in the 7th century, the 23rd century or the here and now. The law of Allah has not changed and you would be wise to take heed of that. We can't just make up new rules as we go and say we're still striving to follow the commands of Allah.

No one is telling you to go around forming a lynch mob, attacking gays or saying hateful hurtful things to people in the LGBTQ community. If they want to live their lives that way, then OK. But just because someone disagrees doesn't equate hate. That's a strong word.

I disagree with your view on this subject as a Muslim but I do not hate you. I just think you're wrong. And that's OK. We can disagree.
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Abdul-Halim265
11-23-2013, 11:02 PM
Originally Posted by Aprender
So, because Muslims, Christians or Jews who believe in Allah and His law disagree with introducing homosexuality and promoting it as normal, moral, and not a sin, that is hateful? So reminding people of the law of Allah and trying to protect children from that behavior makes believers hateful? That's basically what you said.

I do not hate gay people. But if Allah says that it is a sin. Then it is a sin. It doesn't matter whether we're living in the 7th century, the 23rd century or the here and now. The law of Allah has not changed and you would be wise to take heed of that. We can't just make up new rules as we go and say we're still striving to follow the commands of Allah.

No one is telling you to go around forming a lynch mob, attacking gays or saying hateful hurtful things to people in the LGBTQ community. If they want to live their lives that way, then OK. But just because someone disagrees doesn't equate hate. That's a strong word.

I disagree with your view on this subject as a Muslim but I do not hate you. I just think you're wrong. And that's OK. We can disagree.
I'm not saying it ALWAYS equals hatred, but it does a hell of a lot of the time, especially when I look at comments on here by some people who are clearly raging in impotent fury over the mere thought of people being homosexual, exclamation marks and all (with one person even threatening to leave the country). But thank you brother, for being respectful of my opinion. I respect your opinion too, even if I also disagree with it.
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faithandpeace
11-23-2013, 11:05 PM
The act of homosexuality is a sin in Islam and if the act is witnessed by enough qualified witnesses or if they confess, the act is punishable per sharia. Simply having love for one's brother or sister for Allah's (swt) sake is not homosexuality but sexual attractions that could lead to al-zina should be controlled and avoided (i.e. lower one's gaze). We are in the 21st century but Islam does not change to suit modern comforts or conveniences. Allah (swt) knows best.
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Karl
11-23-2013, 11:08 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul-Halim265
I don't think that subjects of sexuality have any place around children, but I do believe that homosexuality is NOT a sin, and that love is love, regardless of gender. If you love someone for their personality, appearance, attitudes, actions, etc, exactly the same as a heterosexual person would, then what on earth is the problem with tht? Of course they cannot naturally reproduce, but in terms of feelings, everything is the same.

I may anger some people when I say this, but, unfortunately, too many people who claim to follow the Muslim faith seem to be giving into hatred and hating people on the basis of their sexuality. A lot needs to change. Barbarically repressing homosexuality has no place in modern society. We're not living in the 11th century.

I say this as a Muslim, who isn't homosexual.

-A.H.265
What you have said is such a clichéd anti Islam spiel, everyone will think you are a troll.
P.S Parents should teach their children whatever they deem fit. Some parents will give their offspring sex education. While other parents that are prudes or molly coddlers may prefer to keep them ignorant. It is not up to anyone to dictate to me what I should or shouldn't teach my progeny.
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جوري
11-23-2013, 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
How do you know? Do you learn it from the Bible instead of the Islamic scriptures?

Peace,
Jim
What a phony amalgamate you got there!
I know because that is what :Allah::swt: teaches and according to our resident christian glo your christian god doesn't consider homosexuality a sin- so how can your christian scriptures be a source of inspiration when it is nothing but a source of confusion for the lot of you?

best,
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جوري
11-23-2013, 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by faithandpeace
The act of homosexuality is a sin in Islam and if the act is witnessed by enough qualified witnesses or if they confess, the act is punishable per sharia. Simply having love for one's brother or sister for Allah's (swt) sake is not homosexuality but sexual attractions that could lead to al-zina should be controlled and avoided (i.e. lower one's gaze). We are in the 21st century but Islam does not change to suit modern comforts or conveniences. Allah (swt) knows best.
bares same punishment as regular adultery I believe.
People who defend thieves are thieves, people who defend murderers are murderers and people who defend adultery are adulterers .. if they can't do the punishment they shouldn't commit the crimes or the sins.. and I don't want to get into exceptional cases we're not here to introduce side topics or water down Islam for people to make it more palatable to their sinful hearts.
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جوري
11-23-2013, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul-Halim265
homosexuality is NOT a sin
Homosexuality is a sin- It isn't about your personal beliefs, It is about what :Allah::swt: elucidated in the Quran.
I reference you to all the verses on the people of Lut and the ahadith on the subject as well!
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جوري
11-23-2013, 11:21 PM
1- Homosexuality is forbidden in the Noble Quran:
Let us read the following Noble Verses from the Noble Quran:
Noble Verses 26:165-166, 27:55, 29:28-29 were sent to me by brother Bassam Zawadi, may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him:
"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! (The Noble Quran, 27:55)"
"And (remember) Lut: behold, he said to his people: "Ye do commit lewdness, such as no people in Creation (ever) committed before you. "Do ye indeed approach men, and cut off the highway?- and practise wickedness (even) in your councils?" But his people gave no answer but this: they said: "Bring us the Wrath of God if thou tellest the truth." (The Noble Quran, 29:28-29)"

Also, Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said:
'Abd al-Rahman, the son of Abu Sa'id al-Khudri, reported from his father: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: "A man should not see the private parts of another man, and a woman should not see the private parts of another woman, and a man should not lie with another man under one covering, and a woman should not lie with another woman under one covering. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Menstruation (Kitab Al-Haid), Book 003, Number 0667)"

This Hadith (Saying of the Prophet) is clearly saying:
1- A man can not see another man's private parts (butt and groin).
2- A woman also can not see another woman's private parts, including breasts except perhaps during the time of suckling a baby.
3- A man can not sleep with another stranger man in the same room.
4- A woman can not sleep with another stranger woman in the same room.

Note: Even bringing suspicion of being a homosexual, fornicator, adulterer or adulterous against yourself is forbidden in Islam.

Doesn't this Hadith alone refute homosexuality in all its forms, according to Islam?
The Prophet's Commands are a must to follow according to the Noble Quran: The authentic Sunnah (the way the Prophet lived) and Hadiths (Sayings of the Prophet) of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him. There are ample Noble Verses in the Noble Quran that Command the Muslims to follow not only the Noble Quran, but also the Commands of Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him:
"O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Apostle, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination. (The Noble Quran, 4:59)"
"God did confer a great favour on the believers when He sent among them an apostle from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of God, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while, before that, they had been in manifest error. (The Noble Quran, 3:164)"
"Obey God, and obey the Apostle, and beware (of evil): if ye do turn back, know ye that it is Our Apostle's duty to proclaim (the message) in the clearest manner. (The Noble Quran, 5:92)"
"(We sent) clear proofs and the scriptures. Now, We have sent you this reminder (Qur’an) so that you may demonstrate the revelations to them. Perhaps they may reflect and ponder! (The Noble Quran, 16:44)"
"When there comes to them some matter touching (Public) safety or fear, they divulge it. If they had only referred it to the Apostle, or to those charged with authority among them, the proper investigators would have Tested it from them (direct). Were it not for the Grace and Mercy of God unto you, all but a few of you would have fallen into the clutches of Satan. (The Noble Quran, 4:83)"
"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper. (The Noble Quran, 7:157)"
"Say: "Obey God, and obey the Apostle: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Apostle's duty is only to preach the clear (Message). (The Noble Quran, 24:54)"
"So establish regular Prayer and give regular Charity; and obey the Apostle; that ye may receive mercy. (The Noble Quran, 24:56)"
"Ye have indeed in the Apostle of God a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in God and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of God. (The Noble Quran, 33:21)"
"It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by God and His Apostle to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys God and His Apostle, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path. (The Noble Quran, 33:36)"
"The Day that their faces will be turned upside down in the Fire, they will say: "Woe to us! Would that we had obeyed God and obeyed the Apostle!" (The Noble Quran, 33:66)"
"It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;- (The Noble Quran, 62:2)"
"So obey God, and obey His Apostle: but if ye turn back, the duty of Our Apostle is but to proclaim (the Message) clearly and openly. (The Noble Quran, 64:12)"
Most of these Noble Verses were taken from Combat Kit To Use Against the "Quran Only" Muslims.

"And God did create you from dust; then from a sperm-drop; then He made you in pairs. And no female conceives, or lays down (her load), but with His knowledge. Nor is a man long-lived granted length of days, nor is a part cut off from his life, but is in a Decree (ordained). All this is easy to God. (The Noble Quran, 35:11)"
"O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of God is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And God has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with all things). (The Noble Quran, 49:13)"
"That He did create in pairs,- male and female, (The Noble Quran, 53:45)"
"And of him He made two sexes, male and female. (The Noble Quran, 75:39)"
"By (the mystery of) the creation of male and female; (The Noble Quran, 92:3)"
"Enter ye the Garden, ye and your wives, in (beauty and) rejoicing. (The Noble Quran, 43:70)"
"And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect. (The Noble Quran, 30:21)"
"Prohibited to you (For marriage) are:- Your mothers, daughters, sisters; father's sisters, Mother's sisters; brother's daughters, sister's daughters; foster-mothers (Who gave you suck), foster-sisters; your wives' mothers; your step-daughters under your guardianship, born of your wives to whom ye have gone in,- no prohibition if ye have not gone in;- (Those who have been) wives of your sons proceeding from your loins; and two sisters in wedlock at one and the same time, except for what is past; for God is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful; (The Noble Quran, 4:23)"
"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, Two or three or four; but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice. (The Noble Quran, 4:3)"
"Let no (Muslim) man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a (Muslim) woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever (pagan woman): nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden. And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors; unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 24:3-5)"
When Allah Almighty revealed the Noble Quran to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, He revealed made it crystal clear to the Muslims that He created us in pairs (males and females) so we can live in peace and harmony together as husband and wife; see Noble Verses 30:21 and 43:70 above.
Not only that, but He also prohibited certain females for a male to marry in Noble Verse 4:23 above.
He also made it clear that marriage is done between a male and a female only. No same sex marriage even for those Muslims who commit major sins, such as fornication or adultery. See Noble Verses 24:3-5.


2- Homosexuals were cursed in the Noble Quran:
The references for the following Noble Verses were sent to me by brother Kashif Baig; may Allah Almighty always be pleased with him.
"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way. (The Noble Quran, 4:15)" If the lesbian woman or women repent, then she or they would be set free. See proof.
"If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 4:16)" The punishment is 100 stripes. See proof.
"We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? (The Noble Quran, 7:80)"
"For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women: Ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. (The Noble Quran, 7:81)"
"(We also sent) Lut (as an apostle): behold, He said to his people, "Do ye do what is shameful though ye see (its iniquity)? (The Noble Quran, 27:54)"
"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! (The Noble Quran, 27:55)"
Homosexual marriage being allowed in Islam is nothing but a false claim that has absolutely no truth in it.

From http://www.answering-christianity.co...n_rebuttal.htm:
To any knowledgeable person in Islamic studies, and to any person who knows just how strict and conservative the Divine and Truthful Religion of Islam regarding chastity and prohibition of lust, fornication, adultery and homosexuality, it becomes quite apparent to the person that Sam Shamoun is a hopeless case. He strives on writing gibberish and desperate nonsense that only occupies space without really providing any real Truth what so ever.

The following response will be divided into the following sections:
1- Lesbianism and homosexuality in Islam.
2- Muslim men and women must remain Chaste.


1- Lesbianism and homosexuality in Islam:
To any person with the least atom of a brain, the following Noble Verses clearly refute his lie regarding Islam allegedly allowing lesbianism or homosexuality in general:
"If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, Take the evidence of four (Reliable) witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or God ordain for them some (other) way. (The Noble Quran, 4:15)" If the lesbian woman or women repent, then she or they would be set free. See proof.
"If two men among you are guilty of lewdness, punish them both. If they repent and amend, Leave them alone; for God is Oft-returning, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 4:16)" The punishment is 100 stripes. See proof.
"For ye practise your lusts on men in preference to women: Ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds. (The Noble Quran, 7:81)"
"Would ye really approach men in your lusts rather than women? Nay, ye are a people (grossly) ignorant! (The Noble Quran, 27:55)"
"Let no (Muslim) man guilty of adultery or fornication marry and but a (Muslim) woman similarly guilty, or an Unbeliever (pagan woman): nor let any but such a man or an Unbeliever marry such a woman: to the Believers such a thing is forbidden. And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors; unless they repent thereafter and mend (their conduct); for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 24:3-5)"
"We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? (The Noble Quran, 7:80)"
"(We also sent) Lut (as an apostle): behold, He said to his people, "Do ye do what is shameful though ye see (its iniquity)? (The Noble Quran, 27:54)"
"A sura which We have sent down and which We have ordained in it have We sent down Clear Signs, in order that ye may receive admonition. The woman and the man guilty of adultery or fornication,- flog each of them with a hundred stripes: Let not compassion move you in their case, in a matter prescribed by God, if ye believe in God and the Last Day: and let a party of the Believers witness their punishment. (The Noble Quran, 24:1-2)"
"Nor come nigh to adultery: for it is a shameful (deed) and an evil, opening the road (to other evils). (The Noble Quran, 17:32)"
"O Prophet! When believing women come to thee to take the oath of fealty to thee, that they will not associate in worship any other thing whatever with God, that they will not steal, that they will not commit adultery (or fornication), that they will not kill their children, that they will not utter slander, intentionally forging falsehood, and that they will not disobey thee in any just matter,- then do thou receive their fealty, and pray to God for the forgiveness (of their sins): for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 60:12)"

2- Muslim men and women must remain Chaste:
Chastity in Islam is well defined in the Noble Quran. It is not just limited to sexual intercourse. It includes everything that deals with and promotes sex and sexual excitement! Talking loose, flirting, dressing inappropriately, promoting sexual and evil thoughts in the society are all condemned in the Noble Quran:
"And say to the believing women that they should lower their gaze and guard their modesty; that they should not display their beauty and ornaments except what (must ordinarily) appear thereof; that they should draw their veils over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husband's fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers or their brothers' sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments. And O ye Believers! turn ye all together towards God, that ye may attain Bliss. (The Noble Quran, 24:31)"
"For Muslim men and women,- for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in Charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in God's praise,- for them has God prepared forgiveness and great reward. (The Noble Quran, 33:35)"
"Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them), (The Noble Quran, 24:33)"
"If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess: And God hath full knowledge about your faith. Ye are one from another: Wed them with the leave of their owners, and give them their dowers, according to what is reasonable: They should be chaste, not lustful, nor taking paramours: when they are taken in wedlock, if they fall into shame, their punishment is half that for free women. This (permission) is for those among you who fear sin; but it is better for you that ye practise self-restraint. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (The Noble Quran, 4:25)"
"This day are (all) things good and pure made lawful unto you. The food of the People of the Book is lawful unto you and yours is lawful unto them. (Lawful unto you in marriage) are (not only) chaste women who are believers, but chaste women among the People of the Book, revealed before your time,- when ye give them their due dowers, and desire chastity, not lewdness, nor secret intrigues if any one rejects faith, fruitless is his work, and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good). (The Noble Quran, 5:5)"
"She said: "How shall I have a son, seeing that no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste?" (The Noble Quran, 19:20)"
"O sister of Aaron! Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste! (The Noble Quran, 19:28)"
"And those who launch a charge against chaste women, and produce not four witnesses (to support their allegations),- flog them with eighty stripes; and reject their evidence ever after: for such men are wicked transgressors;- (The Noble Quran, 24:4)"
"Those who slander chaste women, indiscreet but believing, are cursed in this life and in the Hereafter: for them is a grievous Penalty,- (The Noble Quran, 24:23)"

There are few important points to notice here, especially in Noble Verse 24:31 above:
1- Allah Almighty Commanded the Muslim women to look down when approaching men and to guard their modesty.
2- They must cover their bodies and only reveal their beauty to their husbands and few other relatives.
3- Out of stranger males, they can only uncover their hair in front of little children who "have no sense of the shame of sex".
4- Women can not "strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments." In other words, do not flirt!

I think point #3 pretty much sums it all up!
The fact, from among stranger males, that women can only display the parts of their bodies that are above the shoulders to little children who don't know anything about sex, PROVES without doubt that lesbianism is illegal in Islam.
The sick pornographic and polytheist trinitarian pagan's point, Sam Shamoun that is, is simply that since lesbians' sex is not done by uniting the penis and the vagina together, or by inserting the penis into a vagina, then Islamically it is not forbidden. Since the two women would obviously have only vaginas, and since the Christian Western made "porn toys" didn't exist 1500 years ago, then to pornographic bible follower, the book of women's vaginas and breasts taste like "wine", sex between the two women in all its forms is legal.
What this pornographic polytheist trinitarian pagan doesn't realize is that the "shame of sex" that Allah Almighty talked about regarding the little boys, it would obviously include a condemnation of the two women having an inappropriate relationship with each others, even including just a loose and flirty talk directed at each others. Let alone having a physical sexual relationship.

This is further proven in the following Hadith:
'Abd al-Rahman, the son of Abu Sa'id al-Khudri, reported from his father: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: "A man should not see the private parts of another man, and a woman should not see the private parts of another woman, and a man should not lie with another man under one covering, and a woman should not lie with another woman under one covering. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Menstruation (Kitab Al-Haid), Book 003, Number 0667)"
Even bringing suspicion of being a homosexual, fornicator, adulterer or adulterous against yourself is forbidden in Islam. And to answer Sam Shamoun's silly points regarding lesbianism:

Doesn't "a woman should not see the private parts of another woman" soundly debunk your trash?
The whole point of the veil is not just to have a scarf covering the woman. It also includes living a chaste and a non-loose and non-flirty life! That is why Allah Almighty even prevented women from striking their feet on the ground to make noise that would draw attention to them, so that men would think that they are trying to draw inappropriate attention to them, such as flirting, as shown in point #4 above.
And it's not just women who are Commanded to live a Chaste life. Men too are Commanded to live it, and to avoid causing evil in the society in all ways. This is mentioned in Noble Verse 33:35 above.
Women by nature can very dangerous, just as men by nature can be extremely brainless and stupid when they're sexually too high. Perhaps that is why we see much emphasis on women's' appearances than men in the Noble Quran. To men, a decent shirt and decent pants would do just fine as far as the outside "Chaste" looks are concerned. But to women, it can get much more complicated.
So to prevent some women from abusing their natural and magical beauty and attraction to men, Allah Almighty made it compulsory upon them to cover up, so that they won't eventually become satan's tools to destroy the Chastity of the Muslim society, as it is the case with the pornographic and sexually open christian societies today! Their women have no problem exposing 99% of their bodies through wearing bikinis, sometimes even topless bikinis, on the beaches. Their men and women have no problem in having sex without marriage. They have no problem in corrupting their children and legitimizing to them their illegal ways, etc....
So with all of this in mind, it is now clear that it is the intentions and the actions that are done to promote them, that really matter. Anyone like this polytheist trinitarian pagan and his team of corrupt infidels can act very stupid and twist the Text of the Noble Quran as they please, such as legalizing lesbianism. But they can only fool themselves!
Reply

observer
11-23-2013, 11:54 PM
A couple of people have said the punishment for homosexuality is as per sharia - what is that punishment?
Reply

جوري
11-24-2013, 12:20 AM
If they're caught and there are witnesses punishment is death I don't know if they're given a chance to repent it's a judicial matter!
Reply

observer
11-24-2013, 12:39 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
If they're caught and there are witnesses punishment is death I don't know if they're given a chance to repent it's a judicial matter!

Thanks for the info.
Reply

ardianto
11-24-2013, 04:13 AM
Originally Posted by Abdul-Halim265
If you love someone for their personality, appearance, attitudes, actions, etc, exactly the same as a heterosexual person would, then what on earth is the problem with tht?
If a woman attracted to you, then she would sexually attracted too. Imagine if a man attracted to you?.
Reply

faithandpeace
11-25-2013, 06:21 AM
Islam is far more tolerant than many non-Muslims wish to admit. For instance, in Islam one is not allowed to go searching for other people's sins nor are we allowed to publicize our sins. Muslims are not allowed to spy on other Muslims either. Therefore, while sharia is very strict on a variety of things that are legal in the West (such as homosexuality, adultery, and alcohol), in an Islamic state, insha'Allah we would not be running undercover sting operations to catch people doing these things. So essentially what remains behind closed doors and is not discussed stays that way and the community as a result is generally not harmed by the vices as there is no presence nor tolerance of such sins in the public arena. Sins done in private such as homosexuality are still between the sinner and Allah (swt) and if left unrepented for should be considered very serious matters. So while many non-Muslims may think the penalties in Islam are very harsh, our methods of enforcement are fair as spying, sin-searching, and suspicion without evidence are forbidden. Allah (swt) knows best.
Reply

Independent
11-25-2013, 09:39 AM
Originally Posted by faithandpeace
So while many non-Muslims may think the penalties in Islam are very harsh, our methods of enforcement are fair as spying, sin-searching, and suspicion without evidence are forbidden
The principle is admirable - however, I wonder about the actual practice in reality? Muslim states seem to have central intelligence agencies with all the usual set of responsibilities just like anyone else. And it's not just the obvious police states like Syria eg:

Saudi Arabia - Ri'āsat Al-Istikhbārāt Al-'Āmah
Malaysia - Kor Risik Diraja
Turkey - Milli İstihbarat Teşkilatı
Reply

faithandpeace
11-25-2013, 10:02 AM
I am referring to an Islamic state run per Qur'an and Sunnah. There are a number of states that call themselves "Islamic" but I'm not sure that any of them truly live up to that name.
Reply

جوري
11-25-2013, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
The principle is admirable - however, I wonder about the actual practice in reality? Muslim states seem to have central intelligence agencies with all the usual set of responsibilities just like anyone else. And it's not just the obvious police states like Syria eg:

Saudi Arabia - Ri'āsat Al-Istikhbārāt Al-'Āmah
Malaysia - Kor Risik Diraja
Turkey - Milli İstihbarat Teşkilatı
With people like you it is ideal to be alert, however, NONE of those are Islamic countries or follow sharia, they are merely Muslim majority countries following western style systems!

best,
Reply

Independent
11-25-2013, 07:14 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
NONE of those are Islamic countries or follow sharia
I didn't say they were. I said they were 'Muslim countries'.
Reply

جوري
11-25-2013, 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
I didn't say they were. I said they were 'Muslim countries'.
A country is an organized body of people under a single government, in those countries you afore mentioned none of them run on Islamic or are under Muslim governance, again, Muslim majority doesn't equal to Muslim rule! Try to read more and comment less, then we wouldn't have a laundry list of snafus to enjoy!


best,
Reply

alcurad
11-25-2013, 09:00 PM
Yet another reason to home school.
They become more independent & tend to be smarter than their peers in formal settings. That being said, correlation does not equal causation.
Reply

جوري
11-25-2013, 09:40 PM
Originally Posted by alcurad
Yet another reason to home school.
They become more independent & tend to be smarter than their peers in formal settings.
The only down side I see to that until proven to me otherwise is lack of developing social skills or ability to acquiesce to varying situations which require team work.
People back then and with oral traditions were schooled under the tutelage of a scholar and I think that is ideal but in truth not only is there shortage of scholars but there are tons of people who seek education so they all have to submit to the subpar system until something better is invented!
Reply

Karl
11-25-2013, 10:09 PM
Maybe homosexuality is getting pushed to get the population down (not to mention the spread of AIDS). I think war is the best way, survival of the fittest and so forth. Another thing is that Muslims and Catholics will out number everyone else in Britain if all the liberal lefties go gay. Northern Island will be free and Ireland will be one nation again.
Reply

Independent
11-25-2013, 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by faithandpeace
So essentially what remains behind closed doors and is not discussed stays that way and the community as a result is generally not harmed by the vices as there is no presence nor tolerance of such sins in the public arena. Sins done in private such as homosexuality are still between the sinner and Allah (swt)
Just how far away from the Islamic ideal many Muslim states are is illustrated by this recent incident in Beirut. The police are pulling in men they suspect of being gay and subjecting them to an aggressive anal examination, hoping to discover if they have had anal sex. That seems to me to be just about as far as anyone could go to delve into the private lives and sins of others. Full report here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25057067
Reply

جوري
11-25-2013, 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
Just how far away from the Islamic ideal many Muslim states are is illustrated by this recent incident in Beirut. The police are pulling in men they suspect of being gay and subjecting them to an aggressive anal examination, hoping to discover if they have had anal sex. That seems to me to be just about as far as anyone could go to delve into the private lives and sins of others. Full report here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-25057067
:haha: that's hilarious, you should direct this to the debauched country that is Lebanon, 40% christians and the majority of Muslims are shiites. You're in the wrong forum for whatever you're going for here :)
BBC is a hoot anyway even if it were true it is irrelevant to this forum. Yesterday they posted a report about Egypt which wasn't only far off but even the coup they wish to sponsor wouldn't agree with it according to their own state media official stories. You keep digging for the stories you wanna showcase here but do a little bit of research on demographics before you do. Not everyone here is as ignorant & moronic as you're hoping!
best,
Reply

faithandpeace
11-26-2013, 12:00 AM
Subhanallah that is disturbing because while Islam is clear on its position regarding homosexuality, it is also clear on that Muslims are not to spy on other Muslims or go searching for sins especially on suspicion without evidence. Then again, Lebanon is not an Islamic state.
Reply

جوري
11-26-2013, 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by faithandpeace
Subhanallah that is disturbing because while Islam is clear on its position regarding homosexuality, it is also clear on that Muslims are not to spyon other Muslims or go searching for sins especially on suspicion without evidence.
Why are you disturbed? Lebanon is the most vile country in the ME.. Syria was like them too except Al7mdullilah for the revolt so they can rid of that filth. The situation in Lebanon is very complicated. Everyone in their govt. follows a different creed. The prime minister is one religion, the president is another etc. they walk in all directions and it is a very debauched country. I wouldn't believe the story but if it were true, they're probably checking them so they can commit lewd acts with them on the side. It is a little version of France and that's how the west loves it.

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1601036
Reply

Ian Wishart
11-26-2013, 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by Karl
Yup, it is the rise of the Beast. A Christian has put out a book called Totalitaria by Ian Wishart, this could be an interesting read. He talks about the UN taking control of the world and breaking the world down to one world totalitarian hegemony.

The state has no rightful place forming the minds of the young, that is for the parents to do instead. And the parents should teach their offspring whatever they deem fit.
Hi Karl

I am the author of whom you speak, and yes the new book Totalitaria is equally relevant to Muslims as to Christians. The United Nations is working through a plan to create a global governance structure, but to do that they wanted to first make some social engineering changes to make people more receptive.

Their view is that "world peace" and "tolerance" require religions with firm doctrine, like Christianity and Islam, to be marginalised in favour of a new global religion based ultimately around what Christians and Muslims call the evil one, filtered through New Age and Buddhist principles. There is some evidence to suggest this crowd are trying to provoke Christian/Muslim conflict.

The whole plan, sourced from UN documents (there are nearly 500 footnotes and references in the book) is laid out in Totalitaria and will frankly shock you.

As I say in the book, regardless of whether readers believe in the supernatural part of the global governance plan, those behind it DO, and because they are in positions of considerable power they need to be taken seriously.

It's available from The Book Depository or Amazon in print or kindle form...I strongly urge people with good hearts everywhere to read it and wake up to what is coming...

Regards
Ian
Reply

جوري
11-26-2013, 02:05 AM
this woman shoshana you speak of, her story was indeed all over the news and they made it seem like she was understanding and totally loved the whole experience. Do you know if she's letting that go or if she's suing- or will this become status quo from now on?
Reply

Ian Wishart
11-26-2013, 02:26 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
this woman shoshana you speak of, her story was indeed all over the news and they made it seem like she was understanding and totally loved the whole experience. Do you know if she's letting that go or if she's suing- or will this become status quo from now on?
She is suing...but my point was very simple: when Citizens allow the State to remove their freedoms, they usually never get them back. These kind of incidents are becoming more common. Not just against people who look Middle Eastern but against anyone authorities become suspicious of.
Reply

جوري
11-26-2013, 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by Ian Wishart
She is suing...but my point was very simple: when Citizens allow the State to remove their freedoms, they usually never get them back. These kind of incidents are becoming more common. Not just against people who look Middle Eastern but against anyone authorities become suspicious of.
Indeed..
Reply

glo
11-26-2013, 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by Karl
Muslims and Catholics will outnumber everyone else in Britain if all the liberal lefties go gay.
That is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a long time. I don't know whether to laugh or cry ...
Reply

Karl
11-26-2013, 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Ian Wishart
Hi Karl

I am the author of whom you speak, and yes the new book Totalitaria is equally relevant to Muslims as to Christians. The United Nations is working through a plan to create a global governance structure, but to do that they wanted to first make some social engineering changes to make people more receptive.

Their view is that "world peace" and "tolerance" require religions with firm doctrine, like Christianity and Islam, to be marginalised in favour of a new global religion based ultimately around what Christians and Muslims call the evil one, filtered through New Age and Buddhist principles. There is some evidence to suggest this crowd are trying to provoke Christian/Muslim conflict.

The whole plan, sourced from UN documents (there are nearly 500 footnotes and references in the book) is laid out in Totalitaria and will frankly shock you.

As I say in the book, regardless of whether readers believe in the supernatural part of the global governance plan, those behind it DO, and because they are in positions of considerable power they need to be taken seriously.

It's available from The Book Depository or Amazon in print or kindle form...I strongly urge people with good hearts everywhere to read it and wake up to what is coming...

Regards
Ian
Hi Ian
Is this "crowd" the Zionist plutocrats and all their sycophants, left and right wing? But how can they be defeated? They have so much wealth and power. Create war for profit and to poison the minds of the conquered. They have total power in the West and their tentacles are clawing at the East. How can they be stopped?

Regards
Karl
Reply

Karl
11-26-2013, 10:16 PM
Originally Posted by glo
That is the most ridiculous statement I have heard in a long time. I don't know whether to laugh or cry ...
Yeah your right glo they will of course have test tube babies to keep their numbers up. Maybe even clone themselves.
Reply

glo
11-26-2013, 10:28 PM
Karl, I really have no intentions to get involved in this thread. I have watched too many of these threads turn nasty and I have no taste for it.

But to think that 'liberal left people' will die out 'because they all turn gay' is just purely and simply ridiculous.
People's sexual orientation is genetically determined. There may be certain social factors which prevent people from being honest about their sexuality. It may also be that in a more liberal society people may feel free to 'dabble' in homosexual activity, if they have those kind of desires.

But no heterosexual person is going to 'turn' homosexual because of social freedom. Or vice versa. We are what we are.

Now I must got to bed. If I turn gay anytime soon, you will be the first to hear about it (or perhaps the second ... after my husband)

That's me done in this thread. Peace y'all. :)
Reply

Karl
11-26-2013, 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
Nice plug for another nonsense book.

Are you also the same Ian Wishart, publisher of Investigate magazine in NZ, who recently kicked up a storm by publishing an article which declared that young Muslim men "from Wogistan", described as followers of a "stone age religion" should not be permitted to use planes but should instead be obliged to travel by camel?
It was Richard Prosser a politician who said those things. He sounds like an atheist to me. He was just trying to get the bigot vote I suppose. But I think it backfired.
There is a Maori renaissance in New Zealand and their culture and religion was stone age, literally. And they were called "wogs" and other derogatory remarks by the arrogant British. So these kinds of statements cause a lot of flak.
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جوري
11-26-2013, 10:39 PM
Originally Posted by glo
People's sexual orientation is genetically determined
There's no scientific research that proves that to be true.
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ardianto
11-27-2013, 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by glo
People's sexual orientation is genetically determined.
Everyone born as heterosexual but has potency as bisexual. This potency to being bisexual can be very low and can not be felt, but can be high enough or very high. In some cases it can make someone attracted only to same gender. This potency of bisexual can be high can be low is depend on external factors when they are growing up.

There may be certain social factors which prevent people from being honest about their sexuality.
Yes.

It may also be that in a more liberal society people may feel free to 'dabble' in homosexual activity, if they have those kind of desires.
Yes too.

In one thread I told a 17 years old boy to not being DJ in club. I have ever felt 'club world' and I knew behavior of people in this 'night world'. Not all of them, of course. But in this 'night world' people are not ashamed to be engaged in homosexual activity.

But no heterosexual person is going to 'turn' homosexual because of social freedom. Or vice versa. We are what we are.
Sexual orientation built when a person growing older since childhood. If a man is heterosexual when he reach puberty age, he will not turn into homosexual, but still has potency to engaged in homosexual activity then later enjoy it.

There are various factors that can make someone interested to feel homosexual activity. But if someone has ability to hold the desire, he can ignore this temptation. And ability to hold this desire is very affected by his view on homosexuality. If he believe that homosexuality is wrong and morally unacceptable. so he will focus his desire only to women.

I was not a 'house boy' who just stayed at home and knew about the outer world only from magazine, but I really lived among people from various behavior. I have met many people, I have seen many things in life.

If I against campaign to make homosexuality accepted as normal, it's not because I believe that heterosexual can turn into homosexual, but because I don't want the young generation have interest to feel and engaged in homosexual activity.
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جوري
11-27-2013, 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Sexual orientation built when a person growing older since childhood.
Is that why Cynthia Nixon decided and after 15 years of marriage & two kids to turn gay?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...ay-choice.html

It is a great deal of BS that's going on here. Plain & simple.. there's no 'potency' there's just depravity and the same goes for any other sin from which we're forbidden, except some sins are more cardinal than others!
Let's not coax the kaffirs on to appear more appealing to them. Islam isn't gonna be Christianity so let the vultures hover over every thread & be met with disappointment :ia:
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Abdullah101
11-27-2013, 02:32 AM
Every person on this earth is here because life is a test. Some people could be born homosexual, and their test in life is to not fall into sin. Homosexuality isn't something I would consider disgusting, rather the sin behind it. So indeed, for a Homosexual Muslim to resist temptation and become pure and caste, dedicating his life to Allah, that's more honorable
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Aprender
11-27-2013, 03:08 AM
Are you following the same thread or maybe some things are not being properly comprehended? Most of the Muslims in this thread don't deny that we should treat homosexual people with kindness. The issue here is the way there are some individuals who think it's OK to teach children and other people who might have homosexual urges to give into those urges instead of being pure and chaste.

You have people here on this thread who claim to be Muslims and Christians who think they know better than Allah, even though it is clear in His books, who say that homosexuality is not a sin and that it is OK to be intimate with someone of the same gender simply because they love each other.

The issue here is that there are people who are encouraging the behavior instead of encouraging them to resist the temptations. In the secular world that might be fine with them and moral in their eyes but to those of us who want to follow the path and the guidance that Allah has sent to us, then it's not OK. That's what this discussion is about.

You're an atheist?
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جوري
11-27-2013, 03:11 AM
Abu Huraira narrates that the Messenger of God (Allah bless him and give him peace) said, “Verily a person utters a word, that he deems harmless, but it results in his falling into the depths of the Hellfire.” [Tirmidhi; Ibn Majah]

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Independent
11-27-2013, 10:01 AM
Once again, there is a whole thread about an issue that barely seems to exist outside of a few schools. Also, what is happening here is not 'sex education' but provision of alternative role models. Otherwise, a story about prince marrying a princess could be termed 'sex education'.

As for the old question are people gay by nature or nurture: the scientific debate is ongoing and inconclusive. No point in committing one way or the other for now. But whatever the cause, most gays say that they feel a compulsion, or a sense of difference, from a very early stage. At a pre sexual stage - before they even knew what is involved in a relationship.

3 of my oldest friends are gay and all of them felt pressured into trying heterosexual relationships first. in fact, two of them were especially attractive to women and could get girlfriends at the drop of a hat. (Which says something curious about the rules of attraction.) But they all knew in their hearts that they were gay and eventually that's the path they chose. This was better for them, and better for women.

Despite what is said about western society, on balance the pressure remains heavily in favour of heterosexuality. I also note that the suicide rate among young gay-interested children is 6 times the normal average. Again, a reflection of societal and sometimes family pressure.

Do role models make a difference? Yes they do, but people only respond because of something that's in them already. Eliminating every mention of homosexuality from culture will not change them from being homosexuals, although it may certainly discourage them from acting according to their natures.

People may try gay experiences if culture permits, but this freedom rarely if ever actually 'turns' them gay. Homosexuality is in every culture without exception, although it may be totally hidden by necessity. It's a testament to the overwhelming power of human emotions that people are still gay in societies where they risk severe abuse and even death. Plainly, they are not acting out of some idle curiosity, but by the most profound compulsion possible.

I don't know how this fits in with moral rules and regulations but nevertheless that is the actual condition of the world and human nature. This issue seems to bring out the worst in people and there is far too much enthusiasm taken, if not actual relish, in handing out punishment.
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ardianto
11-27-2013, 02:14 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
But whatever the cause, most gays say that they feel a compulsion, or a sense of difference, from a very early stage. At a pre sexual stage - before they even knew what is involved in a relationship.

3 of my oldest friends are gay and all of them felt pressured into trying heterosexual relationships first. in fact, two of them were especially attractive to women and could get girlfriends at the drop of a hat. (Which says something curious about the rules of attraction.) But they all knew in their hearts that they were gay and eventually that's the path they chose. This was better for them, and better for women.
My childhood friend got married and got divorced four times. Yes, he is gay. One public figure in my country planned to get married few times, but still unmarried until now in mid of 40's age. He is my childhood friend too. I am not surprised if people say he is gay. Actually I didn't see something different when he was kid, but I began to see something different when he was in late of his teen age.

It's not easy for male gays to try to be heterosexual, but it will be easier for male heterosexual to involved and later enjoying homosexuality. It's because the role which they must take in start relationship.

When a male gay start relationship with a woman, he must take position as a man. And without enough interest to woman, he will not able to play his role. Different than male heterosexual who start homosexual relationship which usually he takes position as 'female'. He is in 'pasive' position. Later he can enjoy it. Like few of my friends.

Do role models make a difference? Yes they do, but people only respond because of something that's in them already. Eliminating every mention of homosexuality from culture will not change them from being homosexuals, although it may certainly discourage them from acting according to their natures.

People may try gay experiences if culture permits, but this freedom rarely if ever actually 'turns' them gay. Homosexuality is in every culture without exception, although it may be totally hidden by necessity. It's a testament to the overwhelming power of human emotions that people are still gay in societies where they risk severe abuse and even death. Plainly, they are not acting out of some idle curiosity, but by the most profound compulsion possible.
Trying gay experience will not turn a man into 100% gay who is not interested to women. But it can make them like homosexual relationship, even some of them may be will prefer homosexual relationship than heterosexual relationship.

Without culture permits, few people still try gay experience, and if with culture permits?. Their number will going bigger!

Like I have said, basically human have potency to be bisexual, although usually this potency is very low and cannot be felt. But external factors can make this potency going higher and they start to have interest to same gender.

But there are factors that can prevent them to fall into homosexual activity, religious value and cultural values which homosexuality is unacceptable. These values is like a 'brake' for them. And if they are taught that homosexuality is normal and acceptable, they would lose this 'brake'. Finally they can choose to have partner in heterosexual or homosexual relationship.

This is what I don't want to be happen to young people.
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جوري
11-27-2013, 03:26 PM
This is a bunch of absurd nonsense.
Do you jump people simply for having an overwhelming attraction and intense emotions for them? If you were a heterosexual and tried that, I believe they'd call it rape or stalking and a whole bunch of other things many which would land you with a restraining order or in jail. Why is animalism all of a sudden allowed for homos because they really can't help themselves? And if they can't then thanks for admitting that this is indeed a disease state!
We don't learn about homosexuality in genetics we learn about it in the DSM and certainly DSM-II of 1973 differs in its classifications than the DSM-IV, and that's because of heavy lobbying. Everyday a new allowance because of people like that fellow above, whose sole purpose is to deviate every reality and make it more and more permissible more and more common stream so that even the slightest objection renders you a pariah, intolerant, backwards, dogmatic or whatever BS they concoct.
It is also not a 'handful of schools' and certainly not reserved for British schools as we see it here slowly a part of the curriculum precisely why many westerners not just Muslims prefer to homeschool. Not everyone wants outside interference in how their children are brought up and what they should consider main stream normalcy, furthermore people don't want a secular state to define for them what is good and moral or else you're intolerant and 'homophobic' I am not even sure what that phobia constitutes!
Let's cut the crap if you want to promote homoerotica by citing your friend's stories then do it in some support group this is the wrong place for it!
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ardianto
11-27-2013, 04:23 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
And if they can't then thanks for admitting that this is indeed a disease state!
I indeed regard homosexuality as disease, that's why I have sympathy for those who are suffering from this disease, but I don't have sympathy for those who enjoy this disease, and really contra to those who try to infect other people with this disease.

Let's cut the crap if you want to promote homoerotica by citing your friend's stories then do it in some support group this is the wrong place for it!
No, I do not promote homoerotica. I just showed a reality that how easy someone fall into homosexual activity. And we should aware that it can be happen to someone in our families.
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جوري
11-27-2013, 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
No, I do not promote homoerotica. I just showed a reality that how easy someone fall into homosexual activity. And we should aware that it can be happen to someone in our families.
For what it is worth I didn't read your post but the one before it.
People can fall into sin by choice yes I agree!
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Insaanah
11-27-2013, 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
Once again, there is a whole thread about an issue that barely seems to exist outside of a few schools.
This is an issue of widespread concern, for it strikes at the very root, the very basic unit of society. This is a matter of major concern to many parents from various faith communities.

Section 403(1A)(a) of the Education Act 1996 imposes a duty on the Secretary of State to “issue guidance” to ensure that pupils “learn the nature of marriage and its importance for family life and the bringing up of children” as part of sex education.
Now that the legal definition of marriage will include what is labelled as same-sex marriage, the law will require that children learn about gay marriage as part of sex education. Sex education is mandatory in secondary schools. Many primary schools also choose to teach sex education in some form. Wherever the subject is taught, the law requiring teaching about the importance of marriage applies.
http://c4m.org.uk/downloads/schools.pdf

Currently schools have to show that homosexuality is normal.

From 5 April 2011 public bodies need to ensure they comply with the general equality duty. Under the general duty, in Section 149 of the Equality Act, all public bodies need to have due regard to:

(a) eliminate discrimination, harassment, victimisation and any other conduct prohibited by the Act;

(b) advance equality of opportunity between people who share a relevant protected characteristic and people who do not share it – for example, heterosexual people and gay people

(c) foster good relations between people who share a relevant protected characteristic and people who do not share it.

This means that public bodies must now actively show they accommodate the needs of their gay service-users in the design and delivery of public services like education
Source: Stonewall

For many schools, this is done by promoting gayness as being normal, and showing to government institutions that they are actively doing this and complying with the regulations.

Mr O’Neill, an expert on human rights, was asked to advise on the impact redefining marriage to include same-sex couples could have on schools, churches, hospitals, foster carers and public buildings.

Among his conclusions was that schools could be within their statutory rights to dismiss staff who wilfully fail to use stories or textbooks promoting same-sex weddings.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/poli...-marriage.html

Schools will have to show what they are doing to promote equality (including sexual orientation), and this will apply to primary schools as well (the youngest pupils are 5 years old).

Originally Posted by ardianto
Like I have said, basically human have tendency to be bisexual
We have to very careful when making such statements, whether this is what we've been told in Qur'an and hadeeth.

Apart from the first 22 or so posts, and the odd post in between, much of this thread is discussing homosexuality in general, rather than the specific issue of schools. We've had many threads on homosexuality in general which tend to go on ad nauseum, with no real benefit for anyone. We'll see how this thread goes...
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ardianto
11-27-2013, 05:46 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
We have to very careful when making such statements, whether this is what we've been told in Qur'an and hadeeth.
Oops, sorry. I mean "potency" not "tendency". Yes, these two words have very different meaning and can cause misunderstanding.



Edit: Sis Insaanah, can you edit my word in quoted post, and then delete this post?
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جوري
11-27-2013, 05:54 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Oops, sorry. I mean "potency" not "tendency". Yes, these two words have very different meaning and can cause misunderstanding.



Edit: Sis Insaanah, can you edit my word in quoted post, and then delete this post?
I don't think either of those are true or make a difference in meaning- that's a personal opinion and not a fact!
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Aprender
11-27-2013, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
but I don't have sympathy for those who enjoy this disease, and really contra to those who try to infect other people with this disease.

[4:118] Allah did curse him, but he (Satan) said: "I will take of Thy servants a portion Marked off;

[4:119] "I will mislead them, and I will create in them false desires; I will order them to slit the ears of cattle, and to deface the (fair) nature created by Allah." Whoever, forsaking Allah, takes satan for a friend, hath of a surety suffered a loss that is manifest.
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theplains
11-27-2013, 06:30 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
I know because that is what :Allah::swt: teaches

best,
Would you provide a link please for the Islamic scriptures that teach this?

Peace,
Jim
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جوري
11-27-2013, 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by theplains
Would you provide a link please for the Islamic scriptures that teach this?

Peace,
Jim
I already did here:

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post1600871
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theplains
11-27-2013, 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
Thank you. Appreciate it. May have to put my glasses on :-)

Peace,
Jim
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observer
11-27-2013, 08:41 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
Currently schools have to show that homosexuality is normal.

I'm not sure what's wrong with this - if my child turns out to be gay I hope very much that he will be thought of as normal and not some depraved abomination as seems to be being suggested here by some people.

Being gay is as much a choice as being right or left handed.
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Independent
11-27-2013, 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
This is an issue of widespread concern, for it strikes at the very root, the very basic unit of society. This is a matter of major concern to many parents from various faith communities
Some interesting links in your post that raise a different issue, which is the possible interaction of the new same sex marriage laws with existing educational legislation. The suggestion is that schools might thereby be compelled to teach homosexual relationships in a way that could lead to individual teachers being disciplined for refusing.

This is so far a hypothetical situation but one worth raising and may require a revision of the education legislation. No government will want to preside over a scenario where teachers are getting sacked right, left and centre.

As for the issue at the start of this thread....personally I'm not convinced of the need for any sex education prior to age 10, either hetero or homosexual. Having said that I'm not aware of any issues about it from my friends who have kids in school here currently. My own son has only begun school in England recently when we emigrated, so i can't comment from his experience. However, I can tell from his occasional comments about how kids get treated that being gay in England is still not an easy path, no matter what people think.

Secondary school sex education is a different matter. Like the great majority of UK citizens i don't have any ideological objection to homosexuality. So I agree that it should be presented in an even-handed way. By that stage, there will be kids in the class who know they are gay, and whom all the other kids also tacitly recognise as being gay. This will be the case whatever the law says. The only difference is whether these kids are to be persecuted or not. In a western society it is appropriate to treat them entirely equally. An Islamic society will choose differently.

I am happy that UK society has changed from the appalling situation just 50 years ago, when Alan Turing (a man who arguably shortened WW2 by a year or more through his code breaking efforts) was subjected to chemical castration, simply because he was gay - instead of being celebrated as a great hero of the war who saved millions of lives. He committed suicide afterwards. This kind of persecution must not be allowed to happen again.
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جوري
11-27-2013, 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by observer
I'm not sure what's wrong with this - if my child turns out to be gay I hope very much that he will be thought of as normal and not some depraved abomination as seems to be being suggested here by some people.

Being gay is as much a choice as being right or left handed.
It is ok for you to feel this is normal. It isn't OK for you to impose that this is normal upon everyone else.
Also people should make friends with whom they choose.
Some kids have foul mouths in my niece's school naturally her mother doesn't want her to pick up bad words. If some are promiscuous she has a right to steer her away as well, if they're having homosexual tendencies or making her uncomfortable in any way shape or form or in a manner not congruent to her beliefs then she has a right to not let her mix with those either. That too is normal and NO being left handed or right handed has nothing to do with lewd sexual proclivities!
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ardianto
11-28-2013, 04:51 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
For what it is worth I didn't read your post but the one before it.
People can fall into sin by choice yes I agree!
Being bisexual can be inevitable, but doing homosexual activity is by choice. They can choose to do or not to do. Even those who already involved can choose too, leave this activity or still stay.

Being gay can be inevitable can be by choice. Bisexual people actually can chose to be homosexual or heterosexual.

Originally Posted by جوري
I don't think either of those are true or make a difference in meaning- that's a personal opinion and not a fact!
Tendency is not the right word. But if you still object with "potency", I will change with "possible to be".

But, I will focus to male, not female. Okay, I said every human (or in exactly male) has potency to be bisexual, it's because I don't believe that being bisexual is genetically determined.

A boy is born as heterosexual, but external factors can makes him has tendency to like same gender too (I use "tendency" in this matter). Which the most important factor is sexual harassment from older men around him. Not always in form of 'raped', but in can be kissed, be touched, hugged, etc. Often it's happen when this boy haven't reach puberty age and he doesn't realize that what he experienced is sexual harassment. Later when he is growing older and start to know about sex, he can be be realize that kiss, touch, and hug he ever received were different than kiss, touch and hug he received from his parents.

This sexual harassment can be continued when he is teen, maybe by other older men. He maybe dislike this treatment, but this treatment still can affect his personality which then he start to have interest to 'close' with man. So, the door to homosexual activity start to be opened for him.

But there is factor that can prevent him open this door wider and enter in, his view on homosexuality. If he believe that homosexuality is wrong and forbidden, then he will focus to raise his tendency to heterosexual.

Now imagine if he has been taught that homosexuality is normal and acceptable?. Very possible he will not hesitate to start his homosexual activity if the get a chance. And unfortunately, there are always people who can give him a chance.
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جوري
11-28-2013, 05:14 AM
I don't agree with much of what you've written as stated prior is your opinion, conjectural and not factual!
I am not interested in humanizing a sin you can humanize any sin - it's in the wording and it's the language of the devil - I don't invite it and not interested in it also not interested in it being taught to children and at the age of innocence!
I'd read about homosexuality in Saudi Arabia as a child it never registered with me and I didn't even know how it was performed until I was told by a teacher in health ed in a western country!
Pls don't give me bull about lack of choices when the choice isn't even on the table and has to be introduced!
Shame and shame on people who perpetuate this militant deviant agenda!
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observer
11-28-2013, 08:57 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
It is ok for you to feel this is normal. It isn't OK for you to impose that this is normal upon everyone else.
Also people should make friends with whom they choose.
Some kids have foul mouths in my niece's school naturally her mother doesn't want her to pick up bad words. If some are promiscuous she has a right to steer her away as well, if they're having homosexual tendencies or making her uncomfortable in any way shape or form or in a manner not congruent to her beliefs then she has a right to not let her mix with those either. That too is normal and NO being left handed or right handed has nothing to do with lewd sexual proclivities!

But the only reason you say it's not normal is because of your religion. If you don't like homosexuality for that reason, fine. But kids need to be taught that there are all kinds of people in this world who are worthy of their respect even if you disagree with their ways. I don't really like religion, but my kids will **** sure grow up knowing that they should respect those who are religious and who are different from themselves.

I don't say how a gay couple living together in a loving relationship is any more lewd than a heterosexual couple doing the same. Love is love at the end of the day - I would suggest that saying that they should be killed for their actions is far, far worse than them having that relationship.

There is no choice in being gay - just look at the horrible suffering of gay people in the past who have tried to deny their homosexuality because of the society they lived in. They wanted to be straight, to be "normal". If they had a choice, they would have chosen to be so.
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جوري
11-28-2013, 09:59 AM
Originally Posted by observer
But the only reason you say it's not normal is because of your religion. so.
Nope I find it cringe worthy and unnatural regardless of religion but religion is reason enough!
Try to cut down on the sermon I find it strange you can write so much and say so little that's worth while.
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Independent
11-28-2013, 11:34 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
We all suffer for love ah love get over it and cut the crap of how it isn't a choice !
Most homosexuals don't 'choose' to be homosexual - but yes they have a choice whether to commit a homosexual act. This would be the same for a heterosexual person.

However, for a homosexual, this situation is more extreme than the equivalent for a celibate heterosexual. A homosexual in a Muslim society must hide their very nature. They know this is forever, not just till they marry. They must avoid all form of emotional contact, not just sex itself. Yet there is so much more to human intimacy than just sex.

It's naive in the extreme to think that, simply by not allowing homosexuality to be mentioned, it will just go away. Looking through some of the personal stories from Muslims on the web, their position is appalling. In some cases other people, or their own family, have guessed their homosexual nature even before they knew it themselves and routinely humiliate them for it. The ideal Islamic position of not looking into other people's sins is not followed. Is it realistic to believe it ever could be followed in this kind of situation? There has to be a better way of doing things.

The very countries that take a severe attitude to homosexuality also tend to be those that control their children's marriages. The pressure will come for a homosexual son or daughter to marry. How can they dare to give the reason why they don't want to? It's literally suicide to say it. This makes their life a misery, and potentially the life of the unfortunate heterosexual spouse they will be obliged to marry. What a pointless sequence of human tragedies.
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جوري
11-28-2013, 03:30 PM
Love the part about their position being more extreme - are you trying to say they're not human?
I've never encountered a culture so obsessed with lewd sex it has to search the web for it!
Homosexuality is very much a choice in thought and act until you're capable of locating the specific loci of the gene that causes it- psychological illnesses are just that an obsession of the mind- try to substitute pedophile or necrophilia or even pedarest with the above and convince yourself of it with same fever you're trying to convince us of!

Another useless sermon jam packed with nothing!
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Independent
11-28-2013, 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
I've never encountered a culture so obsessed with lewd sex it has to search the web for it!
in fact Muslim countries regularly top the charts for online search of gay sex terms:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013...n_3440586.html

No matter how oppressive or difficult you make it, homosexuality will still occur. The only difference is whether it is kept secret or not.

Originally Posted by جوري
Homosexuality is very much a choice in thought and act until you're capable of locating the specific loci of the gene that causes i
Arguing about the science of homosexual proclivity is a waste of time until/unless research progresses. Genetics may not be the whole answer anyway - hormonal imbalances caused by temporary stress factors may also be relevant. But what is not in doubt is that many individuals are on homosexual path at a pre-sexual stage, before they even know what sex is, just as heterosexuals are set on their path, before they know what sex is. Any explanation that fails to take account of this is simply not a sufficient explanation.
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جوري
11-28-2013, 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
in fact Muslim countries regularly top the charts for online search of gay sex terms:
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013...n_3440586.html

No matter how oppressive or difficult you make it, homosexuality will still occur. The only difference is whether it is kept secret or not.
It is interesting that the research is coming out of the HF not Pakistan.. :)
it isn't like people can change their IP address and all web searches for porn are done by honest people!
Also is porn homosexuality here or how are you going to tie this in for us? I am obviously discussing your obsession with homos not pubertal teenagers obsession with female genitalia


Originally Posted by Independent
Arguing about the science of homosexual proclivity is a waste of time until/unless research progresses. Genetics may not be the whole answer anyway - hormonal imbalances caused by temporary stress factors may also be relevant. But what is not in doubt is that many individuals are on homosexual path at a pre-sexual stage, before they even know what sex is, just as heterosexuals are set on their path, before they know what sex is. Any explanation that fails to take account of this is simply not a sufficient explanation.
What does that mean 'hormonal imbalance' in this case mean? care t discuss specific hormones and how they play a role per your understanding of third party articles you enjoy sharing but have no understanding of content as is apparent from the great deal of fluff you flood this forum with?
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Independent
11-28-2013, 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
It is interesting that the research is coming out of the HF not Pakistan..
Google makes its search trends available to anyone, anywhere. It doesn't matter where you check it from.

Originally Posted by جوري
is porn homosexuality here
If someone is searching for gay porn, it's reasonable to conclude that they are gay. Or it is if you have any power of reason yourself.

Originally Posted by جوري
What does that mean 'hormonal imbalance' in this case mean?
i repeat for the third time, until science makes some more progress in research, it's a waste of time looking for answers here. But hormonal imbalances have been suggested as another factor and are being researched. Either way, we already know from innumerable testimonies that many gays were on a homosexual path from a pres-sexual age so whether this is caused by genetic or other factors is, literally, academic, which you are welcome to pursue yourself if you're interested.
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ardianto
11-28-2013, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
If someone is searching for gay porn, it's reasonable to conclude that they are gay.
Not always. Teen boys with heterosexual orientation can be curious about homosexuality too.

Homosexuality was a common discussed topic among youth when I was young. It's because we knew that's real. Few of my friends finally fell into homosexuality activities with gays, it's because those gays were really saw us as 'target'.

So, what's your comment about behavior of gays that try to drag young boys to their world?.
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Independent
11-28-2013, 05:48 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
So, what's your comment about behavior of gays that try to drag young boys to their world?.
I would oppose it and the law makes it difficult. The age of consent in the UK is 16. However, for homosexuals, there is a higher limit of 18 if the other person is an older man. So, the law makes it illegal for older men to seduce younger boys (although of course the law can be broken, but that's true for any law).

I haven't seen any evidence in the UK that this is a significant problem, except in cases of youths who are already vulnerable for other reasons (living in care etc). But in this case, both the girls and the boys are in danger - it's far from just a gay problem. There have been a few cases recently that show that people are targeting young people in care for sexual coercion.

I know that in some countries at different times in history there is almost a tradition of older man, young boy sex which is not even considered as gay at all. This tradition has never really existed in the UK (although young boys are considered attractive just as young girls are - the problem is the same.)
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~Zaria~
11-28-2013, 06:19 PM
Greetings,

Once again, we need to remind our non-muslim and atheist friends that:

The commands of Allah and His messenger (sallalahu alaihi wasalam) are not up for debate.





If Allah has forbidden homosexual relations.....then it means that it is forbidden - under any circumstance, despite any 'internal struggle' of being attracted towards the same sex, irrespective of any history of sexual molestation as a child/ adolescent/ adult.

There are no concessions for engaging in any type of homosexual act in Islam.

In view of the above, these types of views are best saved for another type of forum, whose members are not in Submission to the Will of Alllah:

Originally Posted by Independent
Also, what is happening here is not 'sex education' but provision of alternative role models......

As for the old question are people gay by nature or nurture: the scientific debate is ongoing and inconclusive.

Originally Posted by observer
I don't say how a gay couple living together in a loving relationship is any more lewd than a heterosexual couple doing the same. Love is love at the end of the day - I would suggest that saying that they should be killed for their actions is far, far worse than them having that relationship.

There is no choice in being gay - just look at the horrible suffering of gay people in the past who have tried to deny their homosexuality because of the society they lived in. They wanted to be straight, to be "normal". If they had a choice, they would have chosen to be so.
Originally Posted by Independent

i repeat for the third time, until science makes some more progress in research, it's a waste of time looking for answers here. But hormonal imbalances have been suggested as another factor and are being researched. Either way, we already know from innumerable testimonies that many gays were on a homosexual path from a pres-sexual age so whether this is caused by genetic or other factors is, literally, academic, which you are welcome to pursue yourself if you're interested.

^ These types of statements, attempt to make acceptable that which our Creator has already declared as UN-acceptable.

There is no debate about this issue from an islamic perspective.

Please respect this. And we urge you to take these self-deduced laws for living to another group/ forum, where you will be free to debate whether or not there are genetic/ hormonal/ environmental explanations for people to seek relations with the same gender.

Many thanks,

Peace
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جوري
11-28-2013, 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by Independent
Google makes its search trends available to anyone, anywhere. It doesn't matter where you check it from.
if google makes it available to anyone anywhere, then why are you specific about the where are you merely trying to deflect your own perversion?


Originally Posted by Independent
If someone is searching for gay porn, it's reasonable to conclude that they are gay. Or it is if you have any power of reason yourself.
This topic is about homosexuality not porn, thus I am not sure why you'd to introduce pakistan or google into this, you're welcome to start another topic but not meander my thread!


Originally Posted by Independent
i repeat for the third time, until science makes some more progress in research, it's a waste of time looking for answers here. But hormonal imbalances have been suggested as another factor and are being researched. Either way, we already know from innumerable testimonies that many gays were on a homosexual path from a pres-sexual age so whether this is caused by genetic or other factors is, literally, academic, which you are welcome to pursue yourself if you're interested.
Science will find the answers the same day it finds a 'cure' for the common cold. This happens to be my area of expertise which is obvious as to why you don't wish to gauge this topic in any depth as it will expose you as a fraudster so you've to make it riddled and wrought with smarmy specious claims which you can't back up!


best,
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observer
11-28-2013, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by ~Zaria~
Once again, we need to remind our non-muslim and atheist friends that:

The commands of Allah and His messenger (sallalahu alaihi wasalam) are not up for debate.
But no-one is asking you to debate them, or change islam.

If you feel homosexuals are ungodly then that's fine. But you live in a world along with homosexuals which is not ruled by islam, so respect and understanding is neccessary. I really fail to see why that's so difficult - disagreement is inevitable both within and between communities but why can mutual respect not be offered?
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جوري
11-28-2013, 09:44 PM
Homos should start respecting themselves by keeping their sex lives private!
No one asks for respect for their sexual proclivities truly you're a hoot!
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observer
11-28-2013, 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
Homos should start respecting themselves by keeping their sex lives private!
No one asks for respect for their sexual proclivities truly you're a hoot!

And for the 99% of gay people who keep themselves to themselves and broadcast nothing about their private lives? Do you respect them?
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جوري
11-28-2013, 11:05 PM
Originally Posted by observer
And for the 99% of gay people who keep themselves to themselves and broadcast nothing about their private lives? Do you respect them?
I have no feelings toward random people whom I know nothing about- stop asking asinine questions!

best,
Reply

Insaanah
11-28-2013, 11:09 PM
Seeing as this thread is now serving no particular purpose, thread closed.
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