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Seekingtruth
11-23-2013, 02:57 AM
If God created unbelievers and sealed there hearts is it just that they burn in hell eternally or someone who is a good person but follow the wrong religion due to being brought up into a different culture/religion is it really there thought where that person is pit in hell eternally than someone who raped and murdered someone but was forgiven and rewarded?

I am a believer but these questions have bothered me
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glo
11-23-2013, 09:35 AM
That's an interesting question.

So does God create people with closed/sealed/hardened hearts who are simply destined to lead the life of an unbeliever and suffer eternal punishment in the end?
That's a difficult thing to comprehend.

Any thoughts?
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Nur Student
11-23-2013, 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by glo
So does God create people with closed/sealed/hardened hearts who are simply destined to lead the life of an unbeliever and suffer eternal punishment in the end?
No, Allah doesn't create even one single individual with a closed/sealed heart. Ha'sha! It is the unbelievers who choose and insist in unbelief. And Allah seals their hearts as a result of their acts so that they cannot poison others by disseminating what is in their corrupted hearts. To further illustrate this through the analysis of the words in the verse:


خَتَمَ اللهُ عَلٰى قُلُوبِهِمْ وَعَلٰى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلٰى اَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ
Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing. And on their eyes is a veil;
and great is the penalty they incur.



The fact that “has set a seal (khatama)” is tied to “they will not believe (lā yu’minūna)” and follows [immediately] after it is just like making the punishment the consequence of the act, as though it is saying, “Since they have corrupted their wills and not come to believe, they have been punished by having their hearts sealed and blocked up.”

The word(s) “has set a seal (khatama)” also indicate a compound metaphor, which alludes to parabolic comparisonsas a [literary] device (uslūb tamthīlī), which [in turn] signifies a proverb depicting their misguidance, for what it means is the truth being prevented from penetrating to the heart. The term ‘seal or sealing’ (al-khatm) portrays the heart as a house built by Allah (May He be exalted!) to be a treasury full of jewels. But due to the misuse of the will, it has become corrupted and has putrified, and what it contains has turned poisonous so it has been locked up and sealed, to make it shunned.

The word “Allāh:” know that the use of [the proper noun instead of the first person pronoun] signifies a turning (iltifāt) from the first to the third persons. This comprises a subtle point pertaining to the intended (bi’n-niyya) relationship of the word “Allāh” with “they will not believe (lā yu’minūna);” I mean that the implied “in Allāh”indicates the following subtle meaning: when the light of the knowledge of Allah came to them, they did not open the door of their hearts to it, so He turned away from them angrily and locked the door on them.

The use of “on (‘alā)” with the transitive verb “khatama” suggests that the verb includes the meaning of branding, as though it is saying: Allah has set a seal on their hearts, branding and marking them so the angels see them. “On(‘alā)” also suggests that it is the heart’s lofty door that is blocked up, not its lowly door that looks onto this world.

The word “their hearts (qulūbihim)” precedes hearing and sight because it is the seat of belief; and because the first evidences of the Maker are manifested from the heart’s consultation with itself and from the conscience referring to the innate disposition. For when a person consults himself, he feels an acute sense of powerlessness that drives him to seek out a point of support, and he perceives his clamouring need to fulfil his hopes and is compelled to find a source of assistance. But there is no support to be found and no help except in belief.

What is meant by the heart is the dominical subtle faculty – not the piece of flesh shaped like a pine-cone – the emotions of which are manifested in the conscience and the thoughts of which are reflected in the mind. The term heart indicates that the dominical subtle faculty is to man’s spiritual dimensions what the cone-shaped piece of flesh is to the body. For just as the physical heart is a life-machine that pumps the water of life to all the parts of the body, and if it is obstructed or ceases from activity, [life departs and] the body stiffens; so the subtle inner faculty dispenses the light of true life to all the parts of the corpus composed of man’s spiritual aspects, and his [mental] states, and hopes. And if, God forbid, the light of belief fades away, his being, with which he contends with the universe, becomes like a motionless spectre, dark in its entirety.

This topic is also related to the issue of Kadar (Destiny). You can find further information through this link.

http://www.erisale.com/index.jsp?loc...tent.en.205.79
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Abdul-Halim265
11-23-2013, 05:19 PM
But what if someone's simply born into a different society, has never heard of Islam, and lives a perfectly good life? I'm a Muslim, but I simply don't believe that God would send someone to hell, based on not being a Muslim. If they are good people, lead good lives, and don't harm others, he wouldn't just send them to hell for being of a different faith. He wouldn't be a loving God to do that.

I don't pretend to be an expert in Islam, or a very pious person (I'm inherently flawed, as is everyone I guess) but my heart and conscience would never allow me to believe that.
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M.I.A.
11-23-2013, 07:31 PM
the quran states the people of the book.

although there are a large part of them (people of the book) that would deny islam and many numbers of muslims that would also deny them.

there are of course complete arguments for there opinions.

and what they do to each other is only a reflection of there beliefs.



as for people without faith, society exists with or without it.

but imo you use the word pious and its an actual word.




islam is the only way acceptable.

it does not belong to any one group of people.

and the quran is a warning really.
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Abdul-Halim265
11-23-2013, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
the quran states the people of the book.

although there are a large part of them (people of the book) that would deny islam and many numbers of muslims that would also deny them.

there are of course complete arguments for there opinions.

and what they do to each other is only a reflection of there beliefs.



as for people without faith, society exists with or without it.

but imo you use the word pious and its an actual word.




islam is the only way acceptable.

it does not belong to any one group of people.

and the quran is a warning really.
I can understand your point, but I stand by what I said: I believe that God would let anyone into heaven as long as they're good people, and wouldn't punish or ostracise people just for having different beliefs (which is largely the result of living in a different society).
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M.I.A.
11-23-2013, 09:58 PM
im not sure,

god is very strict.

it seems like the more you give, the more the little things matter.

if it is not like this than im glad for the different perspective.


unfortunately the quran urged people to change there ways and not follow "society" or at the very least not follow the ways of there fathers and forefathers (immediate society).

so its probably a very complicated matter in how god judges people.


whenever i talk like this the conversation usually ends with a consensus that the world does not work on ideals.


it is really a testament to allah swt.
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Abdul-Halim265
11-23-2013, 10:08 PM
What I mean is that there are so many different societies across the world, many of which have no contact with each other, no knowledge of Islam, their own beliefs, etc (Allah SWT himself said he had put us all into different nations, for the record). They can't all be expected, with so many different divisions, beliefs, circumstances, etc, to know and embrace Islam when many haven't even heard about it, and have been brought up in different ways. I can't believe that God would cast someone into hell because they had never heard of Islam. That would basically mean chucking the whole population of North Korea into hell, for example.

We should all be cautious before passing judgement on others.
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M.I.A.
11-23-2013, 10:34 PM
ok so let me put this out there for a second if you will, not based on anything solid.

if god is constant and gods law is constant.

then most people (of any era or civilisation) who held beliefs must have had them rooted into something.




you look back to the quran and you have descriptions of the constant guide and the constant deceiver.



so yeah, every path is still a path.

whatever you work towards i guess.


the north koreans probably have little concept of halal and haram food wise, which would put a lot of people off.

"Not that which entereth into the mouth defileth the man; but that which proceedeth out of the mouth, this defileth the man."

new context for you my friend.
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Abdul-Halim265
11-23-2013, 10:40 PM
That's my point. :) Christians, Jews, etc can be considered people of the book too, which is another thing which extremists disparagingly labeling all non-Muslims as "kuffar" really need to consider. *Again, this comes from a Muslim who loves people of all faiths.*
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Insaanah
11-23-2013, 10:50 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul-Halim265
But what if someone's simply born into a different society, has never heard of Islam, and lives a perfectly good life? I'm a Muslim, but I simply don't believe that God would send someone to hell, based on not being a Muslim. If they are good people, lead good lives, and don't harm others, he wouldn't just send them to hell for being of a different faith. He wouldn't be a loving God to do that.
Assalaamu alaikum brother and welcome to Islam and to the forum.

We have to be very careful in saying what we personally believe God would/wouldn't do, based on the limited knowledge He has given us and what personally seems right to us. Rather, we should seek the advice of those knowledgable. Here is one such article which may be of help in shaa Allah (Allah willing):

http://www.islam21c.com/theology/136...ahwiyyah-pt-21

and another here:

http://islamqa.info/en/1244
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M.I.A.
11-23-2013, 11:02 PM
i read both, understandably they are quite nice.

unfortunately like i said before, i struggle with the dilemma of being created in truth.. and changing who i am for the sake of religion.

although any sense of morality, righteousness and developed character brought about by those changes seems to carry little weight.


although its a circular argument.


great thread and links though, many facets of religion discussed imo.
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Nur Student
11-24-2013, 01:11 AM
Question: Is it sufficient on its own to say “There is no god but God” . That is, intending the second part, you ask: can someone who does not say “Muhammad is the Messenger of God” find salvation?

The answer to this is lengthy, so for now we shall only say this:

The two parts of the confession of faith cannot be separated; they prove each other, comprise each other; one cannot be without the other. Since the Messenger (Upon whom be blessings and peace) was the Seal of the Prophets and the heir of all the prophets, he is at the start of all the ways leading to God. There can be no way to reality and salvation outside his mighty highway. All the leading gnostics and verifiers of reality have said like Sa‘di Shirazi: “It is impossible, Sa‘di, to be victorious on the way of salvation, except by following Mustafa.” They also said: “All ways are closed except the highway of Muhammad.”

However, it sometimes happens that people are on the highway of Muhammad (UWBP) and within it, but are not aware of it.

And it sometimes happens that they do not know the Prophet (UWBP), but the road they have taken is part of his highway.

It happens too that because they are in a state of ecstasy or entirely immersed in contemplation or have withdrawn from the world, they do not think of the highway of Muhammad, and “There is no god but God” is sufficient for them.

Nevertheless, the most important side of the matter is this: non-acceptance is one thing, while the acceptance of non-being is another.

Ecstatics and recluses or those who have not heard or are uninformed about it, do not know the Prophet (UWBP) or they do not think of him that they might accept him. They are ignorant in that respect. They know “There is no god but God” only in respect of esoteric knowledge of Him. They may well be saved. But if those people who have heard of the Prophet (UWBP) and know his message do not affirm him, they do not recognize Almighty God. For them, the phrase “There is no god but God” on its own does not express divine unity, the affirmation of which is a means of salvation. For this is not ignorant non-acceptance, which may be excusable to a degree, it is rather the acceptance of non-being, which is denial. The person who denies Muhammad (Upon whom be blessings and peace), who with his miracles and works was the pride of the universe and glory of mankind, certainly cannot receive any light and will not recognize God.

~ The Fifth Matter
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glo
11-24-2013, 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by Nur Student
No, Allah doesn't create even one single individual with a closed/sealed heart. It is the unbelievers who choose and insist in unbelief. And Allah seals their hearts as a result of their acts so that they cannot poison others by disseminating what is in their corrupted hearts.
Thanks for your detailed and informative reply. :)

I mentioned Pharaoh in my earlier post. Unfortunately that bit was removed, because it was relying on a Bible passage.

So I need to ask whether according to Islam Pharaoh had his heart hardened by God in order to prevent Moses and his people from leaving Egypt?

If I understand your answer correctly, then he term 'having one's heart sealed/hardened/closed' is not so much an act by God but an act we commit ourselves through disbelief and actions which go against God's commands?
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جوري
11-24-2013, 04:50 PM
Originally Posted by glo

r according to Islam Pharaoh had his heart hardened by God in order to prevent Moses and his people from leaving Egypt?
?
I thought you read the Quran 'Multiple times'?
Here's the answer from the Quran!
Allah::swt: answered the supplication of Moses no more no less:

[Pickthal 10:87] And We inspired Moses and his brother, (saying): Appoint houses for your people in Egypt and make your houses oratories, and establish worship. And give good news to the believers.
وَقَالَ مُوسَىٰ رَبَّنَا إِنَّكَ آتَيْتَ فِرْعَوْنَ وَمَلَأَهُ زِينَةً وَأَمْوَالًا فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا رَبَّنَا لِيُضِلُّوا عَنْ سَبِيلِكَ ۖ رَبَّنَا اطْمِسْ عَلَىٰ أَمْوَالِهِمْ وَاشْدُدْ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ فَلَا يُؤْمِنُوا حَتَّىٰ يَرَوُا الْعَذَابَ الْأَلِيمَ {88}
[Pickthal 10:88] And Moses said: Our Lord! Lo! Thou hast given Pharaoh and his chiefs splendour and riches in the life of the world, Our Lord! that they may lead men astray from Thy way. Our Lord! Destroy their riches and harden their hearts so that they believe not till they see the painful doom.
قَالَ قَدْ أُجِيبَتْ دَعْوَتُكُمَا فَاسْتَقِيمَا وَلَا تَتَّبِعَانِّ سَبِيلَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ {89}
[Pickthal 10:89] He said: Your prayer is heard. Do ye twain keep to the straight path, and follow not the road of those who have no knowledge.
وَجَاوَزْنَا بِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ الْبَحْرَ فَأَتْبَعَهُمْ فِرْعَوْنُ وَجُنُودُهُ بَغْيًا وَعَدْوًا ۖ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا أَدْرَكَهُ الْغَرَقُ قَالَ آمَنْتُ أَنَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا الَّذِي آمَنَتْ بِهِ بَنُو إِسْرَائِيلَ وَأَنَا مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ {90}
[Pickthal 10:90] And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no Allah save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).
آلْآنَ وَقَدْ عَصَيْتَ قَبْلُ وَكُنْتَ مِنَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ {91}
[Pickthal 10:91] What! Now! When hitherto thou hast rebelled and been of the wrong-doers?
فَالْيَوْمَ نُنَجِّيكَ بِبَدَنِكَ لِتَكُونَ لِمَنْ خَلْفَكَ آيَةً ۚ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِنَ النَّاسِ عَنْ آيَاتِنَا لَغَافِلُونَ {92}
[Pickthal 10:92] But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee. Lo! most of mankind are heedless of Our portents
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czgibson
11-24-2013, 06:41 PM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by Nur Student
It is the unbelievers who choose and insist in unbelief.
I think this is true in my case. I have used my own mind to think about the subject, and have come to the conclusion that I don't believe in God. It has been my choice and nobody else's.

And Allah seals their hearts as a result of their acts so that they cannot poison others by disseminating what is in their corrupted hearts.
I don't understand what this means. Surely many atheists and non-Muslims of all kinds have disseminated their beliefs?

Peace
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glo
11-24-2013, 07:10 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
I thought you read the Quran 'Multiple times'?
No, I didn't read it multiple times. I have dipped in and out of it on occasions and once read it through Ramadan (three years ago I think).

Still, I prefer to rely on my more knowledgeable Muslim brothers and sisters for their understanding, knowledge and views - knowing that I will never reach their level. :nervous:

Thanks for your answer. Assuming that you have posted all verses relating to Pharaoh I can see that the Qu'ran makes no direct reference to Allah hardening or sealing Pharaoh's heart.

Salaam
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crimsontide06
11-24-2013, 07:23 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
Here is one such article which may be of help in shaa Allah (Allah willing):

http://www.islam21c.com/theology/136...ahwiyyah-pt-21
I like the quote in the article...
And some other scholars stating that Allāh would send them to Hellfire or Paradise based on what Allāh in his infinite knowledge knows they would have done had they been presented with the pristine message of Islām during their lifetime
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Nur Student
11-24-2013, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by glo
So I need to ask whether according to Islam Pharaoh had his heart hardened by God in order to prevent Moses and his people from leaving Egypt?
Hi Glo,

We should make a distinction between 'creation' and 'reason'. In Islam, it is very well established that Allah is the Creator of everything, either good or evil (though 'evil' according to our perceptions). Nothing happens naturally by itself, but Allah wills and creates. However, He has given men free will so that they can choose. So, it is we who choose the right or wrong, but it is Allah who accepts our choices and creates them.

Likewise, in the case of Pharaoh, Allah creates the deed of his heart's being hardened and sealed; however, the reason behind it is but Pharaoh's wrong actions and his insistence on them. Allah doesn't seal the heart of anybody because of nothing and heeds them to the Hell-fire. Ha'sha a thousand times!

Not understanding this distinction, some Muslim fellows want us to accept some truths of the Qur'an blind-mindedly. However, this is not what Allah wants or commands us to do in His Decree. He wants us to think, contemplate, and understand. There are examples of this in so many verses. The companions would ask about anything that they didn't understand about the Qur'an to the Prophet (s.a.w.)
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Insaanah
11-24-2013, 08:04 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Assuming that you have posted all verses relating to Pharaoh I can see that the Qu'ran makes no direct reference to Allah hardening or sealing Pharaoh's heart.
Greetings glo.

Originally Posted by جوري
[]
وَقَالَ مُوسَىٰ رَبَّنَا إِنَّكَ آتَيْتَ فِرْعَوْنَ وَمَلَأَهُ زِينَةً وَأَمْوَالًا فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا رَبَّنَا لِيُضِلُّوا عَنْ سَبِيلِكَ ۖ رَبَّنَا اطْمِسْ عَلَىٰ أَمْوَالِهِمْ وَاشْدُدْ عَلَىٰ قُلُوبِهِمْ فَلَا يُؤْمِنُوا حَتَّىٰ يَرَوُا الْعَذَابَ الْأَلِيمَ {88}
[Pickthal 10:88] And Moses said: Our Lord! Lo! Thou hast given Pharaoh and his chiefs splendour and riches in the life of the world, Our Lord! that they may lead men astray from Thy way. Our Lord! Destroy their riches and harden their hearts so that they believe not till they see the painful doom.
قَالَ قَدْ أُجِيبَتْ دَعْوَتُكُمَا فَاسْتَقِيمَا وَلَا تَتَّبِعَانِّ سَبِيلَ الَّذِينَ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ {89}
[Pickthal 10:89] He said: Your prayer is heard. Do ye twain keep to the straight path, and follow not the road of those who have no knowledge.
وَجَاوَزْنَا بِبَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ الْبَحْرَ فَأَتْبَعَهُمْ فِرْعَوْنُ وَجُنُودُهُ بَغْيًا وَعَدْوًا ۖ حَتَّىٰ إِذَا أَدْرَكَهُ الْغَرَقُ قَالَ آمَنْتُ أَنَّهُ لَا إِلَٰهَ إِلَّا الَّذِي آمَنَتْ بِهِ بَنُو إِسْرَائِيلَ وَأَنَا مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ
The next verse, verse 89, is in this translation translated as "your prayer is heard". Other translations are:
Your supplication has been answered,(Saheeh International)
Verily, the invocation of you both is accepted, (Muhsin Khan)
Accepted is your prayer (O Moses and Aaron)! (Yusuf Ali).
Your invocation (i.e., of both Musa and Harun) has been answered (Dr Ghali)

So this means that the prayer/supplication/invocation was accepted and answered, including the hardening of Pharoah's heart, excatly as per the supplication, until he saw death in front of him and then declared he wanted to believe, when it was too late.

And Allah knows best.
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Seekingtruth
11-25-2013, 03:11 AM
I've come up my own conclusion regarding this subject and its that Allah I all knowing, Allah knows best and of which we do not and to have trust and faith in Allah
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glo
11-25-2013, 07:09 AM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
So this means that the prayer/supplication/invocation was accepted and answered, including the hardening of Pharoah's heart, excatly as per the supplication, until he saw death in front of him and then declared he wanted to believe, when it was too late.
Thank you for highlighting this verse. It had escaped me earlier.

This sounds more like the hardening of Pharaoh's heart was done by God at Moses' request. Would that be your understanding?
That sounds as if Pharaoh is the passive party in this situation.

Which kind of goes back to my original question. "Was Pharaoh intended (by God) to the bad guy in this story so it could work out as planned? Did he (Pharaoh) have any choice in his actions and decisions?"
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glo
11-25-2013, 07:11 AM
Originally Posted by Seekingtruth
I've come up my own conclusion regarding this subject and its that Allah I all knowing, Allah knows best and of which we do not and to have trust and faith in Allah
I agree. There is much we cannot possibly understand until we meet our Creator face to face.
Still, I like to ponder these questions. :)

Allah alim
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جوري
11-25-2013, 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by glo
It had escaped me earlier.
To put it in the simplest terms for you, the pharaoh was a bad guy of his own free will, he was invited in the gentlest of manners and he continued being bad, he was even given dreams and various signs, but he chose to act on his dream by killing the male born children of Banu Israel, he chose to torture even his high priests who embraced monotheism. They were bad all along but changed. Everyone has free will, everyone has the ability to make supplication and ask for guidance, everyone has a chance to change all the way up to the end but not at the very end!

best,
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Insaanah
11-25-2013, 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by Seekingtruth
I've come up my own conclusion regarding this subject and its that Allah I all knowing, Allah knows best and of which we do not and to have trust and faith in Allah
Alhamdulillah (All praise be to Allah). In addition to that, Allah is the Most Just. He will not wrong anyone, not even by a dot or a spot:

And guard yourselves against a day in which ye will be brought back to Allah. Then every soul will be paid in full that which it hath earned, and they will not be wronged. (2:281)

So how will it be when We assemble them for a Day about which there is no doubt? And each soul will be compensated [in full for] what it earned, and they will not be wronged. (3:25)

...Then will every soul be [fully] compensated for what it earned, and they will not be wronged. (3:161)

Whoever comes [on the Day of Judgement] with a good deed will have ten times the like thereof [to his credit], and whoever comes with an evil deed will not be recompensed except the like thereof; and they will not be wronged. (6:160)

And if each soul that wronged had everything on earth, it would offer it in ransom. And they will confide regret when they see the punishment; and they will be judged in justice, and they will not be wronged. (10:54)

On the Day when every soul will come pleading for itself, and every soul will be repaid what it did, and they will not be wronged. (16:111)

And We charge no soul except [with that within] its capacity, and with Us is a record which speaks with truth; and they will not be wronged. (26:32)

And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord, and the record [of deeds] will be placed, and the prophets and the witnesses will be brought, and it will be judged between them in truth, and they will not be wronged. (39:69)

And Allah has created the heavens and the earth with truth, in order that each person may be recompensed what he has earned, and they will not be wronged. (45:22)

And for all there are degrees [of reward and punishment] for what they have done, and [it is] so that He may fully compensate them for their deeds, and they will not be wronged. (46:19)
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greenhill
11-26-2013, 01:46 AM
Originally Posted by glo
I mentioned Pharaoh in my earlier post. Unfortunately that bit was removed, because it was relying on a Bible passage.
I posted a thread on 'sealing of the hearts' and Zaria too before me, several months back (mine and a lot earlier for Zaria).

When we read the Quran in snippets, we will get answers in snippets. It may not be totally reflective of the question we want answers to. When we look at sealing of the heart and use Pharaoh as an example, we often look at the fate of his sealed heart rather than to question why was his heart sealed? It was not a sudden thing where Allah decided arbitrarily to seal his heart. Pharaoh was given ample chances, he was given plenty of proofs, and only reverted when impending gloom and only to become arrogant again after the disaster was averted. In the end, Pharaoh never wanted to accept the truth hence Allah sealed his heart.

He realised his folly when it was too late. The sealing of the heart does not come suddenly and without reason. There has to be contributing actions of our own that will lead to it, likewise, opposite can happen if we pursue the truth..

Peace :shade:
Reply

glo
11-26-2013, 05:05 PM
Originally Posted by greenhill
He realised his folly when it was too late. The sealing of the heart does not come suddenly and without reason. There has to be contributing actions of our own that will lead to it, likewise, opposite can happen if we pursue the truth..
Thanks greenhill. I assume your are referring to these verses:
[Pickthal 10:90]
And We brought the Children of Israel across the sea, and Pharaoh with his hosts pursued them in rebellion and transgression, till, when the (fate of) drowning overtook him, he exclaimed: I believe that there is no Allah save Him in Whom the Children of Israel believe, and I am of those who surrender (unto Him).
آلْآنَ وَقَدْ عَصَيْتَ قَبْلُ وَكُنْتَ مِنَ الْمُفْسِدِينَ {91}
[Pickthal 10:91]
What! Now! When hitherto thou hast rebelled and been of the wrong-doers?
فَالْيَوْمَ نُنَجِّيكَ بِبَدَنِكَ لِتَكُونَ لِمَنْ خَلْفَكَ آيَةً ۚ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِنَ النَّاسِ عَنْ آيَاتِنَا لَغَافِلُونَ {92}
[Pickthal 10:92]
But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee. Lo! most of mankind are heedless of Our portents
Is this the only example of Allah not granting forgiveness to somebody who declares Shahadah? or are there other examples?
Do we have to assume that Pharaoh was not truly repentant or that his sins would have been forgiven otherwise?

Does "we save thee in thy body" mean that Pharaoh survived? And if so, do we know what happened to him afterwards?
Reply

Insaanah
11-26-2013, 07:40 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Is this the only example of Allah not granting forgiveness to somebody who declares Shahadah? or are there other examples?
You cannot declare your shaahdah once you've seen the angels of death. It's too late.

Originally Posted by glo
Do we have to assume that Pharaoh was not truly repentant or that his sins would have been forgiven otherwise?
We don't need to be doing any assuming, because Allah is judge, not us. If you read the links I posted earlier, you will know that Allah knows what a person would and wouldn't have done in any situation as He knows the past present and future. Thus the Ifs or what would otherwise have happened are not our concern. We limit ourselves to what Allah told us about Him, and we don't go beyond that.

Originally Posted by glo
Does "we save thee in thy body" mean that Pharaoh survived?
No. He drowned.

Originally Posted by glo
And if so, do we know what happened to him afterwards?
His body was found and preserved.
Reply

glo
11-26-2013, 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by Insaanah
No. He drowned.
His body was found and preserved.
Thank you.What does the sentence "But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee" mean?
Reply

greenhill
11-26-2013, 10:24 PM
Originally Posted by glo
"But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee" mean?
That Allah preserves the body of the Pharaoh as proof for future generations, like us.

Your quote goes on to say "Lo! Most mankind are heedless of Our portents". Which is true also.

Peace :shade:
Reply

glo
11-26-2013, 10:32 PM
Ah, that makes sense, greenhill.

Thanks for all who have been patient with me in this thread. It's much appreciated. :)
Reply

Nur Student
11-27-2013, 06:03 AM
10:91

10 91 1 -

Sahih International
Now? And you had disobeyed [Him] before and were of the corrupters?

10:92

10 92 1 -

Sahih International
So today We will save you in body that you may be to those who succeed you a sign. And indeed, many among the people, of Our signs, are heedless.
Reply

Signor
11-27-2013, 07:34 AM
Greetings glo

Originally Posted by glo
So does God create people with closed/sealed/hardened hearts who are simply destined to lead the life of an unbeliever and suffer eternal punishment in the end?
Originally Posted by glo
This sounds more like the hardening of Pharaoh's heart was done by God at Moses' request. Would that be your understanding?
That sounds as if Pharaoh is the passive party in this situation.

Which kind of goes back to my original question. "Was Pharaoh intended (by God) to the bad guy in this story so it could work out as planned? Did he (Pharaoh) have any choice in his actions and decisions?"
I don't know whats being edited but it seems like you are even unaware of Story of Moses(A.S) and Pharoah from Bible

From Exodus 6-10,KJV

3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

13 And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

14 And the Lord said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

22 And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the Lord had said.

15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

19 Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This is the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said.

32 And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go.

12 And the Lord hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had spoken unto Moses.

34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. (Poster's Note;See this is how hearts got hardened/sealed/closed when you deny HIS Signs)

35 And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the Lord had spoken by Moses.

10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him

20 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.

27 But the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
Back to Quran

[Pickthal 10:88] And Moses said: Our Lord! Lo! Thou hast given Pharaoh and his chiefs splendour and riches in the life of the world, Our Lord! that they may lead men astray from Thy way. Our Lord! Destroy their riches and harden their hearts so that they believe not till they see the painful doom.

[Pickthal 10:89] HE said: Your prayer is heard. Do ye twain keep to the straight path, and follow not the road of those who have no knowledge.

Got the point??

Originally Posted by glo
Does "we save thee in thy body" mean that Pharaoh survived? And if so, do we know what happened to him afterwards?
Do you believe in Bible??

From Exodus 15,KJV

19 For the horse of Pharaoh went in with his chariots and with his horsemen into the sea, and the Lord brought again the waters of the sea upon them; but the children of Israel went on dry land in the midst of the sea.

And nearly the same has also been mentioned in Psalm 78:53 and Psalm 106:11

When Francisco Mitra became the president of France in 1981. France requested from the Egyptian government to host the mummy of Pharaoh. For the purpose of running laboratory and archeological examinations on the mummy of the most notorious dictator ever lived on earth. Upon arrival, a very royal attendants were there including the French president himself and all ministers who bowed in honor for the mummy.

When the ceremony ended, the mummy was carried to a specially-designed section at the Archeology Centre of France where it started to be tested by the greatest French archeological and anatomical scientists in order to discover more about such a great mummy. The scientists were headed by Professor Maurice Bucaille. Scientists were trying to restore the mummy while Professor Maurice was mainly concerned with how did this mummy die!


The final report of the scientists was released late at night which states that the remaining salt in the mummy is an overt evidence that it was drawn in the sea, and the body was rescued very shortly where it was immediately embalmed to be saved.


An amazing thing was still confusing Professor Maurice is that how could this body possibly be safer than any other mummy despite being taken out of the sea up until this time

Keep this in mind NOT MUMMIFIED but DROWN in SEA(this is how we both believe)

Originally Posted by glo
What does the sentence "But this day We save thee in thy body that thou mayst be a portent for those after thee" mean?
Originally Posted by Insaanah
His body was found and preserved.
There you go....

ramesses 5 1 - pharaoh 1?w360 -

For a more detailed analysis,visit this link

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Qur...espharaoh.html
Reply

Muhaba
11-27-2013, 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by glo

Thanks for your detailed and informative reply. :)

I mentioned Pharaoh in my earlier post. Unfortunately that bit was removed, because it was relying on a Bible passage.

So I need to ask whether according to Islam Pharaoh had his heart hardened by God in order to prevent Moses and his people from leaving Egypt?

If I understand your answer correctly, then he term 'having one's heart sealed/hardened/closed' is not so much an act by God but an act we commit ourselves through disbelief and actions which go against God's commands?
God doesn't play games. He wasn't playing some joke by sending Moses to pharaoh while hardening pharaoh's heart so he wouldn't listen. In Chapter 20 (Taha), it is written:


Go, both of you, to Pharaoh. Indeed, he has transgressed. And speak to him with gentle speech that perhaps he may be reminded or fear [ Allah ]." (20: 43 - 44)

The fact is that a person's actions and intentions are what harden a person's heart. When a person gets information about the Truth and then knowingly doesn't pay heed, their hearts harden and their eyes and ears are covered. No one's born with hardened hearts. Pharaoh was shown many signs many times and he had realized clearly that Moses was correct and he was wrong. Everytime he was given some form of miraculous punishment ( a sign) he would say to Prophet Moses to ask God to remove the punishment and then he would be believe but when the punishment was removed, he continued to transgress. Finally, he was drowned. So pharaoh had knowingly belied the truth. God hadn't done him any injustice. What pharaoh got he deserved.

And they said, "No matter what sign you bring us with which to bewitch us, we will not be believers in you."
So We sent upon them the flood and locusts and lice and frogs and blood as distinct signs, but they were arrogant and were a criminal people.
And when the punishment descended upon them, they said, "O Moses, invoke for us your Lord by what He has promised you. If you [can] remove the punishment from us, we will surely believe you, and we will send with you the Children of Israel."
But when We removed the punishment from them until a term which they were to reach, then at once they broke their word.
So We took retribution from them, and We drowned them in the sea because they denied Our signs and were heedless of them.
(7:132 - 136)

Read the story of Pharaoh and Prophet Moses in chapter 7 verses 103 - 136
Reply

glo
11-27-2013, 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by Signor
I don't know whats being edited but it seems like you are even unaware of Story of Moses(A.S) and Pharoah from Bible
From Exodus 6-10,KJV
I am aware of the Bible story and made reference to it in my first post. But these comments were removed by mods - possibly because they have no place in the clarifications about Islam section.

Anyway, I think my questions from an Islamic persepctive have been answered. Thank you. :)
Reply

greenhill
11-28-2013, 01:34 AM
Originally Posted by Abdul-Halim265
But what if someone's simply born into a different society, has never heard of Islam, and lives a perfectly good life? I'm a Muslim, but I simply don't believe that God would send someone to hell, based on not being a Muslim.
This is something I wrote about in a thread "Burn in Hell" sometime this year. I would not repeat it as the points are already there (sharing your same concerns).

There is another point which I would like to add is that it matters not how we CAME into the world but how we LEAVE the world. People born as muslims can leave the religion as much as people born of other faith revert. There is proof here in this forum of people born in other faith despite their strict upbringing find their calling in islam and in my own country there are many cases of muslims becoming murtad...:hmm:

Peace :shade:
Reply

glo
11-28-2013, 08:58 AM
Originally Posted by WRITER
The fact is that a person's actions and intentions are what harden a person's heart.
That is very profound, Writer.

Surely this is a comment we should all ponder on.
I see much hatred and anger in human beings. Perhaps we bring this upon ourselves by our own actions - working ourselves deeper into animosities, hatred and division, rather than allowing God to ease our hearts and give us peace.

Your comment has given me much thought and joy first thing in the morning. Thank you.

God's peace and ease be with you all this day and every day! :statisfie
Reply

greenhill
11-28-2013, 09:57 AM
Glo,

Originally Posted by glo
Perhaps we bring this upon ourselves by our own actions - working ourselves deeper into ****, **** and division, rather than allowing God to ease our hearts and give us peace.
(removed those words because I don't see it you)

Why don't you 'soften' your heart and let the pure message take you to a higher place and see where the Quran fills the gaps that are in the Bible, and straightens the crooked path and let Allah ease your heart and give you peace? :D

It is the same God, after all, Eloh to the Jews and Allah to muslims.

Peace :shade:
Reply

glo
11-28-2013, 03:08 PM
Thank you, greenhill. :)

Here we are making the claim that drawing closer to God softens our heart and makes us more gentle, peaceful and loving (at least that's how I see it).
Why then, do so many 'religious' and 'zealous' people (I mean people from any religion, no religion in particular) express so much hatred and anger in the name of their God and their religion? I see it here in this forum and in many other places ...
Reply

greenhill
11-28-2013, 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by greenhill
Why don't you 'soften' your heart and let the pure message take you to a higher place and see where the Quran fills the gaps that are in the Bible, and straightens the crooked path and let Allah ease your heart and give you peace?
Glo,

I sincerely apologise. Uncalled for. :sorry:

But on the zealous matter, in this day an age would be 'over zealous' as zealous almost does not exist anymore :p. We are in an age of excesses, with that extremisms in everything. Compound that with the close proximity of people, whether in the cramped spaces of the city or people reaching out across the globe in the cyber world, there's gonna be heat. That is going to happen in any community. People will have their skew on things and have different ways to express themselves. I see that too, the anger. But then, it's their anger.. what else can I say?

Peace to you Glo
Reply

glo
11-28-2013, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by greenhill
I sincerely apologise. Uncalled for.
No need to apologise, friend. Neither uncalled for nor inappropriate.
All is well. :)
Reply

glo
11-28-2013, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by greenhill
People will have their skew on things and have different ways to express themselves. I see that too, the anger. But then, it's their anger.. what else can I say?
Is there anything we can do to soften other people's anger? Or do we have to leave this to God?
Reply

جوري
11-28-2013, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by glo
Is there anything we can do to soften other people's anger? Or do we have to leave this to God?
If you're encountering angry people and no one else seems to have that problem then perhaps the problem lies with you? your understanding or perhaps a role you've played to elicit said reaction. Cause and effect you know!

best,
Reply

glo
11-28-2013, 06:27 PM
If you don't encounter angry people or animosity in your life then you must be a very blessed woman indeed, sister Lily. :)
Reply

جوري
11-28-2013, 06:49 PM
indeed all blessings come from :Allah::swt: and to :Allah: we're grateful!

best,
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
11-28-2013, 08:37 PM
Originally Posted by Seekingtruth
If God created unbelievers and sealed there hearts is it just that they burn in hell eternally or someone who is a good person but follow the wrong religion due to being brought up into a different culture/religion is it really there thought where that person is pit in hell eternally than someone who raped and murdered someone but was forgiven and rewarded?

I am a believer but these questions have bothered me
:salamext:

Allah's mercy is far greater than His wrath. He has revealed the Qur'an, sent Messengers and Prophets in succession until the final Messenger Muhammed :saws1: for the benefit of mankind. Allah sent His Messengers and Prophets so that no person has an excuse before Allah on the day of judgement saying he or she did not know the right way to please Allah.

Allah does not lead anyone to misguidance except for the person who chooses to be misguided. Allah will show guidance to people in one form or another until it is made clear to them of the straight path. It is because of a person's neglect or rejection of it that Allah misguides people. As a punishment from Allah for rejecting Islam, Allah places a seal on the hearts of such people from receiving guidance and mercy from Him. Instead He leads them into complete darkness from seeing right or wrong, leaves them to the devils who torment the misguided person till his death and cause grief, anxiety and restlessness in the person's heart. When people die in the state of disbelief then their eternal abode is the fire of hell.

"Verily! He (satan) has no power over those who believe and put their trust only in their Lord (Allah). His (satan's) power is only over those who obey and follow him and those who join partners with Him." (Quran chapter 16 verses 99-100)

I'd answer the other parts of the question but I don't understand your question very well.
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
11-28-2013, 08:45 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
im not sure,

god is very strict.

it seems like the more you give, the more the little things matter.

if it is not like this than im glad for the different perspective.


unfortunately the quran urged people to change there ways and not follow "society" or at the very least not follow the ways of there fathers and forefathers (immediate society).

so its probably a very complicated matter in how god judges people.


whenever i talk like this the conversation usually ends with a consensus that the world does not work on ideals.


it is really a testament to allah swt.
I've always noticed your thoughts to be overly pessimistic and greatly jumbled. Why are you so certain that God is strict when He's said He's merciful? Why does being different from people equate to things becoming "unfortunate"??

Ignorance is an illusion of knowledge. Philosophy will only help you understand so much of religion and spirituality :ermm:.
Reply

M.I.A.
11-28-2013, 10:03 PM
Originally Posted by 'Abd-al Latif
I've always noticed your thoughts to be overly pessimistic and greatly jumbled. Why are you so certain that God is strict when He's said He's merciful? Why does being different from people equate to things becoming "unfortunate"??

Ignorance is an illusion of knowledge. Philosophy will only help you understand so much of religion and spirituality :ermm:.

well im pessimistic because iv never been to heaven.

and iv always lived in somebody elses plan.



although im not ungrateful, allah swt's blessings are countless.


the way i am is probably because of the people iv met in my life.

an abusive childhood and a bad teenage patch.

and now im fully grown and have a better understanding of language, its all the more worse.


dont confuse my thoughts with philosophy though.. its always so overly complicated.



i went to mosque the other day for congregational prayer, a man that does the azan had been inviting me for ages.

i met him inside and he shook my hand and said to me, brother do you know how many times more reward you get for congregational prayer?

i had no idea.

so he pointed at his friend who was also near me and said, how many times more reward is there for congregational prayer, 3 million?

(even i thought thats not the right answer)

but his friend said, for praying salat or for missing it?

i laughed a little and then i prayed.


i have no idea but whatever you make of it.
Reply

glo
11-28-2013, 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
indeed all blessings come from :Allah::swt: and to :Allah: we're grateful!
Amen to that!
Reply

'Abd-al Latif
11-28-2013, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
well im pessimistic because iv never been to heaven.

and iv always lived in somebody elses plan.



although im not ungrateful, allah swt's blessings are countless.


the way i am is probably because of the people iv met in my life.

an abusive childhood and a bad teenage patch.

and now im fully grown and have a better understanding of language, its all the more worse.


dont confuse my thoughts with philosophy though.. its always so overly complicated.



i went to mosque the other day for congregational prayer, a man that does the azan had been inviting me for ages.

i met him inside and he shook my hand and said to me, brother do you know how many times more reward you get for congregational prayer?

i had no idea.

so he pointed at his friend who was also near me and said, how many times more reward is there for congregational prayer, 3 million?

(even i thought thats not the right answer)

but his friend said, for praying salat or for missing it?

i laughed a little and then i prayed.


i have no idea but whatever you make of it.
Start being proactive and climb out of the mess that's in your mind.

It's simple. 2 + 2 = 4.

Searching + understanding - confusion ÷ knowledge = Enlightenment!

It's logical I say!
Reply

جوري
11-28-2013, 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
an abusive childhood and a bad teenage patch.
News flash, life sucks, and just about everyone has been bullied by someone, how about you man up?
Reply

wayseer
11-28-2013, 11:15 PM
Whether it is corpulent and overweight bodies crammed into stretched singlets topped with bizarre hairdos and covered in a myriad of tattoos or homosexuality or gay marriage or atheism of a myriad of other 'things' ... it is finally a matter of faith.

How's yours?
Reply

M.I.A.
11-29-2013, 12:49 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
News flash, life sucks, and just about everyone has been bullied by someone, how about you man up?
yeah, not that sort of abuse. anyway way to go at elevating my manhood to another level.

but i do find it at odds with the all knowing sustainer, protector, provider and guide.

...thats not insincere, i do firmly believe.


although at some point i forget which came first the chicken or the egg.


but i cant really be tit for tat anymore.
Reply

جوري
11-29-2013, 12:51 AM
no idea what you are on about as usual!

best,
Reply

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