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Scimitar
09-03-2014, 12:35 AM
perfection is for Allah only.

Scimi
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InToTheRain
09-03-2014, 09:28 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
perfection is for Allah only.

Scimi
:sl: Bhaisab :)

Although you intend well there is a conceptual fallacy in saying Allah Most High is perfect and not Mohammad(SAW) or Isa(AS). This is because:

1) Muslims should never engage in comparing the Creator to the Created. Scholars only spoke of how incomparable Allah Most High is to the Creation and emphasized on this.
2) Perfection is something quantifiable and Allah Most High is beyond this; hence he is beyond Perfection and in a category of His own. There is no Modal for Allah Most High.

Hence If perfection is quantifiable and we also know that Allah Most High values Mohammad(SAW) more than all His other creations we can say Mohammad(SAW) is perfect.

I would recommend this book for those wanting to know more about Allah Most High:
http://alghazzali.org/resources/arti...eedahNotes.pdf
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Scimitar
09-03-2014, 05:44 PM
Thank you for the link, I shall take a look when I have time (so busy with work atm).

I however, initially stick to my statement, that Allah is the most perfect, and we human beings are not - no matter prophet or not - however, the link you sent me may after careful consideration, allow me to retract the statements here.

I'm still learning, as are we all.

Scimi
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InToTheRain
09-04-2014, 11:39 AM
:salam:

It wasn't really directed to you but more towards a dengerous concept formulating in the minds of some of our dear Brothers and Sisters regarding the Infallibility of our Prophets and Messengers(AS).

The difference between the Creator and the Created are one of category. The Oness of Allah Most High refers to His unique Category and independence from everything which is perfectly understood by Surat Ikhlaas.

If we drag Allah Most High down to our category by trying to compare the uncomparable we will mentally impose limits upon that which is beyond limits and it puts us in the false position of having to belittle the Best of Creation Mohammad(SAW) in order to keep Allah in His place as God. And so another dangerious concept forms in the mind; Prophets and Massengers are flawed, sinners and people who made mistakes which is on par with the belief of Christians and Jews. So if our role models are themselves sinners the gravity of Sin decreases.

However the traditional view of our Pious Predecessors has always been the Prophets and Massengers are protected from even minor Sins:

Qadi `Iyad in al-Shifa' said that the Jumhur of the Jurists from the schools of Malik, al-Shafi`i, and Abu Hanifa, agree that the Prophets are protected from all minor sins because one is required to follow them in the minutest matters. It is even reported from Malik that this is obligatory to believe.

“Allah Most High preserving the Prophets from falling into that which has been prohibited,” as explained by the commentators of the Jawhara. [Tattan/Kaylani, `Awn al-Murid `ala Jawharat al-Tawhid, 2.727; also: Bajuri, Tuhfat al-Murid]

“These are the ones whom Allah has guided, so follow their guidance.” [Qur'an, Surat al-An`am: 90]

The classical definition of amana (trustworthiness), which relates to `isma (being preserved from sin) is:

“Allah Most High preserving the Prophets from falling into that which has been prohibited,” as explained by the commentators of the Jawhara. [Tattan/Kaylani, `Awn al-Murid `ala Jawharat al-Tawhid, 2.727; also: Bajuri, Tuhfat al-Murid]

Another definition of trustworthiness was given by the great 20th Century Hanafi scholar from Hama (Syria), Shaykh Muhammad al-Hamid in his work Rudud `ala Abatil [297, as quoted in the above text],
“It is a trait that Allah creates in His servant through which they are disposed to doing the good and that prevents them from the bad.”

What I am saying is Prophets and Massengers are Perfect in their own right and for their category as role models for us to follow. Only Allah Most High knows the granular differences within them but in our eyes they were perfect which is why they were chosen for those specific roles.

I too am learning so if I err it's your duty to to correct me. Believers are a Mirror for one another.
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Ahmad H
09-04-2014, 06:43 PM
I like this thread. Great discussion. :thumbs_up
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MuslimInshallah
09-05-2014, 10:04 PM
Originally Posted by InToTheRain


2) Perfection is something quantifiable and Allah Most High is beyond this; hence he is beyond Perfection and in a category of His own. There is no Modal for Allah Most High.
Assalaamu alaikum,

Perhaps this disagreement is a question of definitions? I know that personally, I understand perfection as something infinite, and therefore only an attribute of Allah. But I suppose that if you saw perfection as something finite, then your argument is correct.

Incidentally, InToThe Rain, your argument about Allah not being comparable is very true, I think. I was recently examining the Qur'anic use of the elative (which is usually used to express comparatives and superlatives), and how the Qur'an subverts this form to demonstrate Allah's incomparableness. And how hard it is for the translator to capture this nuance!

Which is why I say: and only Allah truly Knows. Because to say: and Allah Knows best, implies that Allah is comparable, and therefore finite.

Anyway, good discussion. And I think you're both right, just you are understanding the concept of perfection differently.
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Scimitar
06-13-2016, 10:55 PM
Allah is perfect, I stand by my statement after all this time.

Scimi
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darullemon
06-13-2016, 11:10 PM
Afaik Prophets and Messengers(PBUT) are protected from Major and Minor sins but they do tend to make mistakes in regular chores or activities, things that are not related to religion. There are references in Qu'ran where Prophets when they made mistakes Allah(SWT) informed them about those.
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Scimitar
06-13-2016, 11:13 PM
There's one in al Kahf where Allah admonishes the Prophet pbuh because he forgot to say "in sha Allah"

That story is such a mind blow :)

Scimi
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