Meaning of the word Islam

[acausal]

Islam means Submission to God, generally, yes? I know the word also has some roots with the word peace, as well (or so I have read).

I am not an adherent, but I am not not. I tend to be argumentative. I question. I dont easily accept another man as above me/of being subordinate. I play the game of life, and in that, I accept my role, but truly, I cannot, or don't seem to, accept Muhammad as closer to God than me.

Islam, submission to God. Why can only one 'cult' (I don't mean this derogatorily) claim this? How is this possible? All life and all things exist only because they adhere to God- to the way of things. We are all Muslim. Anything else is impossible.

Islam is very attractive to me... But certain things, I respectfully move on from. I will not stone a person who adultures. I will let the stone of... Reality... Decide. Of God. I don't quite know how to say it, but religion scares me. I do not trust other men. I have see order in chaos to such a degree that I have had to simply choose the right path, and though I can accept the good things that people of Islam hold good, I do not see it as any change from what came before, and I cannot put another man above me.

Anyways, I don't mean to rant. But what do you think? By the word itself, isn't everything already... Islam?

[Hulk]

What is religion if not submitting oneself to the Will of the Creator?

"And unto Allah falleth prostrate whosoever is in the heavens and the earth, willingly or unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening hours."
Quran 13:15

No one is asking you to stone anyone bro.

[Insaanah]

Greetings acausal and welcome to the forum

Islam means Submission to God, generally, yes?

"If you refer to Arabic language dictionaries you will find out that the meaning of the word Islam is: submission, humbling oneself, and obeying commands and heeding prohibitions without objection, sincerely worshipping Allaah alone, believing what He tells us and having faith in Him. The word Islam has become the name of the religion which was brought by Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). "

Read more: Meaning of the word Islam - islamqa.info

I know the word also has some roots with the word peace, as well (or so I have read).

Yes, it has the same root letters.

All life and all things exist only because they adhere to God- to the way of things. We are all Muslim. Anything else is impossible.

By the word itself, isn't everything already... Islam?

I don't know if you've read a translation of the meanings of the Qur'an, but am wondering if you're referring to this verse, the translation of which is:

Sahih International
So is it other than the religion of Allah they desire, while to Him have submitted [all] those within the heavens and earth, willingly or by compulsion, and to Him they will be returned? (3:83)

Willingly, or unwillingly, all creatures submit to His laws of the universe. Indeed in questioning, you're using your brain, which God made for us to use. When we eat, we are eating food He provided for us to eat, and the system of humans is that we are creatures who need to eat. People may not acknowledge God, but we all have a need to eat. We submit/concede to the laws by which the universe operates. We are born, we live, we breathe, we die. there is no other system we can choose. We will die whether we want to or not.

"Therefore, the faithful believer submits to Allah in heart and body, while the disbeliever unwillingly submits to Him in body only, since he is under Allah's power, irresistible control and mighty kingship that cannot be repelled or resisted. "

Quran Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The Only Valid Religion To Allah is Islam

To be a Muslim, it must be a conscious, willing, active decision to submit - a submission of heart, mind and body. Not just a passive submission of body.

I dont easily accept another man as above me/of being subordinate.

We have never been called subordinate, to my knowledge.

I cannot, or don't seem to, accept Muhammad as closer to God than me.

How do you mean?

Remember, that all the Prophets of God, were amongst the noblest and purest peoples of their times, known for their upright characters and excellent moral conduct.

Allah sent a succession of prophets to people throughout the ages, to convey His message to them, and with guidance to show people how He wants them to live and worship Him. Muslims believe in all the prophets Allah sent, and do not reject or blaspheme any of them, from Adam, to the last and final prophet, Muhammad, peace be on them all. They were the purest and noblest of humanity and were not divine in any way. Allah sent all the prophets with the same message and not different messages. The message was: to submit wholeheartedly to Allah and worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in, or parts to, His Exclusive Divinity, and to obey the prophet. They taught that people should be under no misperception that they can commit themselves to Allah as their Lord, and then combine this with accepting others as their Lord, or associating others in His Divinity, in whatever way. They taught that we should strive hard to translate our belief in the One True God into practice, by obeying Allah and the messengers He sent, who were also role models and examples for us, showing us practically how to put the guidance they were sent with into practice in our daily lives, explaining the scriptures, warning against wrong-doing, giving good tidings, and giving additional legislation from Allah.

So Islam is not a new faith, but is the same ultimate universal truth that God revealed to all the prophets, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be on them), and the same thing they all taught. Thus Islam is not named after a specific person (like Christianity, Buddhism), nor after a certain race or place (like Judaism, Hinduism), but is named by God Himself, the meaning loosely translating as 'submission to God', which is what every Prophet and their righteous followers did, from amongst all times, places and peoples. That in itself is one fraction of the evidence that it was the way of all the Prophets from the beginning.

With time, the message got forgotten or corrupted. So people started worshipping other gods along with Him, made idols, said that God begot a son, said that certain people were incarnations of God, some rejected belief in God altogether, while others elevated the status of some prophets to divine, or at the other end, rejected or blasphemed some of the prophets. Whenever God's message got distorted by people, or forgotten, a new messenger was sent, not with any new or changed message, but reinforcing the actual message that God sent all the messengers with, the actual core beliefs that people were taught from the beginning of humanity, confirming the true parts of previous teachings and scriptures, and correcting wrong beliefs and misconceptions that had crept in. God required that whenever He sent a new messenger, that messenger should be followed along with any new scripture given to him. This chain of messengers culminates in prophet Muhammad (peace on him), who is the last and final prophet and messenger. Since his prophethood, God's message is available unchanged and unadulterated, for the entire world, until the end of time. He wasn't sent as prophet and messenger for a specific group of people and specific time (e.g. as Moses and Jesus were to the Children of Israel), but he was sent for all the world, for all time, until the Day of Judgement. Thus he is the last, not first, prophet of Islam; a messenger to all mankind, for now, and for all time to come. He is the messenger who must now be followed.

Also see the following hadeeth:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) as saying:
There is none whose deeds alone can secure salvation for him. They said: Allah's Messenger, not even you? Thereupon he said: Not even I, but that the Mercy of Allah should take hold of me. (Sahih Muslim)

I'll leave it here for now, and perhaps you can let us know if this addresses any of your concerns at all in any way.

Peace.

[h-n]

acausal,

You don't think that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is better then you, and that you don't believe in going against evil, and that you think that you treat others better by not doing this. You treat experiences as if the world is revolving around you.

1. God All-Mighty has sent us the Prophets to give us the message, hence they are known as messengers, they include Prophet Jesus, Muhammad, Noah, Lut, Jonah, David, Solomon peace be upon them. They had the message from God, -which you do NOT.

2. You don't think that a Prophet of God is better then you, but yet you have relationships outside of marriage, your conduct is a poor one, and one of usury of other people's lives to feel important. The Prophets and the Muslims is about submission to God, no different to the Archangel Gabriel bowing down to Allah.

3. We despise people leading others to the fires of Hell, and homosexuality is one of them, it is the state today, that people are told they are innocent people, when they are doing an evil, foul thing.

4. You mention God is justice-this is where he has given us his commandments to follow, which includes punishments of sins-are you saying this isn't so in Judaism and Christianity?? After many awful, awful crimes including rape, murder of children-are you saying that no one should be killing them?? God tells us to follow his commandments, not that everytime someone commits a crime, Allah will automatically punish such and such an individual-that is what we are to do, which includes death penalty.

5. You are not doing anything better then the Prophets Jesus, Muhammad peace be upon them. I don't think that anyone would take you seriously, we are only humans, sleep, work, and spend time with family and help others, where we thank Allah for the opportunity of our existence to know that he exists, and to live in Paradise.

6. I think its more of an issue of where people don't like advice, they say who the hell are you to tell me what to do?? But there are obligations in life, obligation to look after your parents-and what you stated hasn't indicated any responsibility that you are taking, but just getting with "girlfriends".

So you are not better then the Prophets of Allah, and you never will be, I suggest you sort out your life, take responsibility, stop thinking that others are fitting in your life, when everyone has their own time in this existance of this world.

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[h-n]

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him did not create a new religion, just like Prophets David, Solomon, Noah and Moses peace be upon them did not create a new religion from each other.

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is the last Prophet chosen by God. You are not a Prophet, and neither would you be accepted as such by a Christian or a Jew etc.

God is the best of planners, the evil people plan, but Allah's plan is better-that is where it was changed from that you quote that God is the best deceiver.

Also the people of Aad and Thamud had the same arrogance. In the past the people had built their homes out of the mountains, and thought they were strong and better then anyone else. It is no different to people saying they have computers, ships etc. God himself allows people to build ships etc, so how can you claim supremacy on the basis of building something?? Can you guarantee that all this will continue? Can you guarantee that you will be able to get food and water? No you can't, with the end times it has already been written there will be a drought.

Majority of people in the west don't take advantage of their free education, they use their mobiles but for idle chit chat, they go on internet but not much for learning, so don't come on the forums, talking as if we don't have an understanding of what people do with technology that they are arrogant about.

Also you shouldn't be arrogant, as you use God's creation such as iron, wood to create things. Which Allah has allowed, just like people used speech, people are still warned, ie earthquakes etc, when you are a witness to it, by reading it in the paper, watching it on TV or flicking the news websites, so on the Day of Judgement, you had been warned, and seeing this earthquake view TV for example will be written on your record on the Day of Judgement, no difference to people being told to remember what happened to the people of old.

You are not a Prophet, neither should you be having relationships outside of marriage, you claim to treat people better, but your treating others as less important to yourself, you are treating females poorly by saying you don't mean that much to me, that I'll move onto something else. Saying that, anyone would be wise to stay clear of you, your talking as a lunatic.

[acausal]

You, because of your belief, could never accept that an angel or angels have given me information, seemingly. You believe that I must go through Muhammed to get to God. I do not believe this. My experience tells me otherwise.

I struggled when I first started seeing things align. I felt that I was center. This made me a bit crazy. But it is not as if life is not beautiful for each of us. Its not as if I don't believe that each could have their own center, in themselves. I just see from me. I cannot even be sure, however, that I am not dreaming this. Nobody can be sure.

Since this post may very well get deleted, I'm going to stop here. I don't need to defend myself against you. You don't have righteous judgment. You don't know me, or my thoughts, and you are definitely not open.

[h-n]

Just to correct, we believe in the message that Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him gave, we do not treat him like the Christians do with Prophet Jesus peace be upon him (that they treat him as a saviour) that we have to go through him to have a relationship with God, we all have our own relationships with God, and our lives are defined by that, even if you go to Hell, its because you led your life not on the correct path of being good.

God has given us Prophets to advise us the best ways for us to live and to worship him. God All-Mighty is the centre and all beings look towards him and all angels bow down to him in worship.

You are not the centre, you talk about beauty in life, but yet your willing to treat females poorly and not get married. You think you are the centre, and important-well what do you do in life??? What are you to the rest of humanity?? What have you contributed to the world??? Even if you owned the whole planet, I would never accept you as the centre, but on the wrong path as you not accepting the messages of the Prophets to be successful in the hereafter, to worship the one God, believe in the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell.

[acausal]

But in order to be right by you you have to be right by his message. You cannot separate the message from the messenger here.

As for being the center, you don't understand it. And treating women poorly? My people don't marry 6 year olds and have sexwith 9 year olds. If they do they are put in jail. My people don't require witnesses to rape for a woman to be able to report it. My people have evolved- have progressed rather to where a woman can be heard as equal to a man in a court. I didn't marry those girls because it wasn't the right path at the time. I am sick. I have been sick. Why should they sacrifice for me? I didn't marry Alisha because at least in a large part, I didn't feel worthy. I was suffering. I hide when I suffer. Treat them badly? You have no idea.

I'm done responding to this. Thanks for your time, everyone.

[h-n]

The Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is not a saviour, we learn and follow after him, if we didn't have him it is obvious that we would not have succeeded (what with the Christians with their idol worship, of accepting Prophet Jesus peace be upon him as saviour and being one of three and with the Jews rejecting the existence of Hell). We follow after his teaching as we have them more then any other Prophet. We know how he lived and advised, we know more about his life then the Christians and the Jews have written on any other Prophet.

People in the past got married to females and had relationships with them when they started their period this was the norm not just in Islam, but around the world. Nobody, which includes the Christians, the Jews the idol worshippers were critical. So look up on history yourself.

Also the witnesses is about proving if someone had committed adultery, not about rape, as women didn't socialise with the opposite sex or meet up with them, it was asked if they were seen with such and such, and if they were witnessed by others, and not just a testimony of gossiping people and jealous ones too.

A man is not equal to a women, they don't share the same roles. It would be insulting to me as a woman if someone said that man is the same, get over yourself, even they aren't chosen to be Prophets and I don't have a problem with that.

If your not well, then you shouldn't be in a relationship, but sort yourself out. I will answer what we have in Islam to your misunderstanding, and unfortunately it involves devils leading people astray. Not only do devils tell people to be evil, but they wish for them to be depressed, lead them astray by showing them things ie if someone went to a fortune teller (where some are able to hear the devils, their devils would speak to the one following you around and advise them of your status, and who you would most likely to meet). They have made many people believe they are important and even in the Muslim world we had many people claiming to be the Mahdi ( a leader of the Muslim, a descendant of the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him).

The devils are calculating and deceptive, as a Muslim we normally recite the last two surahs of the Quran called Surah Al-Falaq and Surah An-Nas. If anyone wishes to become Muslims they should seriously look at what we believe as if you change your mind and keep on rejecting and accepting Islam, then Allah does not help that person on the right road, it is no difference in accepting Prophet Jesus peace be upon him and saying he doesn't mean anything to you (if you were alive at the time and followed him and his teachings).

I will locate a thread that I wrote a long time ago on Devils, but there are plenty of materials on them for you to read.

The thread page;-

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...62-devils.html

As we are only here for a short amount of time (where I remember and dislike wasting the time of others and get to the point), its worth your while to check up on this subject, and make your own decisions. I normally don't spend much time on forums, but if you would like to ask any questions about Islam then there are plenty of information around for you to browse and ask questions.

May Allah help you to learn.

[Optimal Unity]

Please forgive me, I am new here however I wonder why is Islam so unmoving.

This thread shows the reality of why Islam will never be the accepted religion for the World in its current form. While Islam had it's day in the history of man's evolution the thinkers and enlightened leaders have long left Islam, and Allah has moved on to do work on furthering his plan for humanity.

Here we have a soul looking for definition as to why the Quran has so many negative aspects in it, and the participants fail to reason and don't speak from point of compassion where someone is looking for guidance towards Allah. It is sad really.

When will Islamists stop this self righteous state of mind and open their hearts to the truth of Allah and the people seeking him?

You will NOT find the truth in the Book, it is only a guide, in fact Muhammad pointed to honouring all the Holy Books but do you listen to any of their sayings. That means there is more to this existence than what is written in one Book, the Book of life is Allah's greatest work and until you learn to read that you will never learn the truth.

They still stone people, they still lash people, they still cut of hands and behead the people, yes the west have their faults too but all this shows is that no religion is perfect and each has to be revised in our quest to exist in harmony.

Muhammad, (pbuh) was a great leader who had to unite a whole series of disjointed tribes who believed in Christianity, Paganism, Judaism, did Muhammad know about Buddhism, Hinduism, Zoroastrianism, Taoism, Jenisim, no, those were not the tribes present, what do you think he would have done if they were tribes in those sects, but the Book contains consideration of all of the Books and respects them, what makes you think the new task for Islam is not to account for all of these other religions and incorporate their faiths into a coherent and new Islam?

The fanatical adherence to the book is admirable but this is also the reason beheadings occur why is Islam not ready to move forward from the darkages?

[greenhill]

what makes you think the new task for Islam is not to account for all of these other religions and incorporate their faiths into a coherent and new Islam?

The reason is a simple one. Allah has perfected the 'deen' for us. And, it is nor for us to tamper with what has been given. In Islam we cannot pick and choose and we have to accept in totality and not in bits.

Yes, the Quran is a guide and the prophet is the example. In fact all previous prophesy (peace be upon them all) also show example by doing what was commanded of them and to worship only Allah. Only what happened to the other major Books - it was changed to suit what people wanted.

To put in another way, why have Universities teach subjects so difficult that not very many do well? Why not just make it simple that everyone can pass? That would be good for all, no? Faith is something each and everyone has to find for themselves, and Allah cannot be 'felt' by most. It would be easier if Allah makes Himself 'seen' so that then everyone would be given a chance to believe, but that is not to be. So it is up to us to seek the truth.

Unfortunately, most people also like yourself find your own conclusions like saying

You will NOT find the truth in the Book, it is only a guide, in fact Muhammad pointed to honouring all the Holy Books but do you listen to any of their sayings.

The truth is, you will find only truth in the Quran, yet still people doubt. It is the truth, it is a guide, it is glad tidings, it is also a warning and not limited to only an aspect.

Yes we do honor the other Books as we are told in no uncertain terms that the previous Books were given to previous prophets. However, they are no longer in its original form and the Quran has superseded them. We don't burn the Bible or the Torah, we do not sow any disrespect towards them except to remind people that the Quran is the final revelation.

What you quote with regards to the actions by some muslims, well, all I can say is that the religion or Deen is perfect, we humans, are not! Is a teacher who molest the pupils a bad individual or is the profession lousy? You cannot lump the whole religion to be classified as being represented by some extremist.

There was a time during the prophet's (saw) life where if he did compromise slightly in the doctrine, he would have had the leaders follow. In fact they even offered wealth and power to him. But what did he do? He declined the offer. If he did that, how could we change anything?

Peace :shade:

[Ali Mujahidin]

....
The fanatical adherence to the book is admirable but this is also the reason beheadings occur why is Islam not ready to move forward from the darkages?

Pray tell, what is the connection, in your opinion, between beheadings and the reason why Islam is not ready to move forward from the dark ages?

[Optimal Unity]

what makes you think the new task for Islam is not to account for all of these other religions and incorporate their faiths into a coherent and new Islam?

The reason is a simple one. Allah has perfected the 'deen' for us. And, it is nor for us to tamper with what has been given. In Islam we cannot pick and choose and we have to accept in totality and not in bits.

Yes, the Quran is a guide and the prophet is the example. In fact all previous prophesy (peace be upon them all) also show example by doing what was commanded of them and to worship only Allah. Only what happened to the other major Books - it was changed to suit what people wanted.

To put in another way, why have Universities teach subjects so difficult that not very many do well? Why not just make it simple that everyone can pass? That would be good for all, no? Faith is something each and everyone has to find for themselves, and Allah cannot be 'felt' by most. It would be easier if Allah makes Himself 'seen' so that then everyone would be given a chance to believe, but that is not to be. So it is up to us to seek the truth.

Unfortunately, most people also like yourself find your own conclusions like saying

You will NOT find the truth in the Book, it is only a guide, in fact Muhammad pointed to honouring all the Holy Books but do you listen to any of their sayings.


The truth is, you will find only truth in the Quran, yet still people doubt. It is the truth, it is a guide, it is glad tidings, it is also a warning and not limited to only an aspect.

Yes we do honor the other Books as we are told in no uncertain terms that the previous Books were given to previous prophets. However, they are no longer in its original form and the Quran has superseded them. We don't burn the Bible or the Torah, we do not sow any disrespect towards them except to remind people that the Quran is the final revelation.

What you quote with regards to the actions by some muslims, well, all I can say is that the religion or Deen is perfect, we humans, are not! Is a teacher who molest the pupils a bad individual or is the profession lousy? You cannot lump the whole religion to be classified as being represented by some extremist.

There was a time during the prophet's (saw) life where if he did compromise slightly in the doctrine, he would have had the leaders follow. In fact they even offered wealth and power to him. But what did he do? He declined the offer. If he did that, how could we change anything?

Peace

Thank you for your interaction. May Allah guide you well.

Do you know if the Quran repeats any stories from the Torah or New Testament?

[Optimal Unity]

The fanatical adherence to the book is admirable but this is also the reason beheadings occur why is Islam not ready to move forward from the darkages?

Pray tell, what is the connection, in your opinion, between beheadings and the reason why Islam is not ready to move forward from the dark ages?

The connection is that the perfect book still allows misinterpretation, where a Muslim feels he is right to behead a innocent being, when the book is imperfect for saying love your brother as yourself but then say only a Muslim is your brother, a imperfection taken from the the Torah, and you care not for the words of Jesus when he says love your neighbour as yourself and God with all your heart without dividing you into a goyim or infidel.

Which do you think Allah would see as the higher edict?

Islam the religion of Peace should take some notes from the sayings of Jesus when it comes to the directive of peace, you can not win the Worlds hearts by saying you are a religion of peace but carrying on like murderous fanatics shouting Allah Akbar as if that will save you from judgement.

Am I wrong?

Oh and please understand I love Allah and I love Islam, like Ghandi said of the Christians I love your Christ but the Christians are so unlike Christ, way to many Muslims saying the name of Allah but not living the peace of Islam, thereby keeping Islam in the dark-ages.

[MuslimInshallah]

perfect book still allows misinterpretation

Greetings Optimal Unity,

You seem to be mixing a lot of things together, so it is hard to reply to you. But one thing that should be noted is that God Gave us free will. The Qur'an is a Guidebook only when a person sincerely wishes to be Guided. The Qur'an is, indeed an excellent Guidebook, but it is we humans who chose to twist and distort beautiful things for unbeautiful purposes.

Take chamber music. It can be beautiful. But it was used to lull and mislead the men, women and children waiting for the gas chambers during the holocaust. Does this make the music ugly?

The Qur'an may also be misused. God permits us to do this, for a little time, in this life. But it is, nevertheless, a beautiful Guidance, if you wish to be Guided.

May God Open your heart to see the beauty and wonder of the Qur'an.

[Optimal Unity]

Greetings Optimal Unity,

You seem to be mixing a lot of things together, so it is hard to reply to you. But one thing that should be noted is that God Gave us free will. The Qur'an is a Guidebook only when a person sincerely wishes to be Guided. The Qur'an is, indeed an excellent Guidebook, but it is we humans who chose to twist and distort beautiful things for unbeautiful purposes.

Take chamber music. It can be beautiful. But it was used to lull and mislead the men, women and children waiting for the gas chambers during the holocaust. Does this make the music ugly?

The Qur'an may also be misused. God permits us to do this, for a little time, in this life. But it is, nevertheless, a beautiful Guidance, if you wish to be Guided.

May God Open your heart to see the beauty and wonder of the Qur'an.

Greeting in return MuslimInshallah, may Allah guide you.

Yes I understand why you would find my reasoning difficult to comprehend.

Indeed the Qur'an is a beautiful guide, but is it perfect? Muslims have fanatically served the Qur'an to the point where killing is accepted if anything is being criticised of the Qur'an if it was the perfect word of Allah do you not think man would automatically be satisfied and uplifted. I can go into the reasons why I recognise it is not perfect and I would be happy to discuss that with anyone with the patience to show me otherwise.

And so if it is not perfect, should it not be perfected?

Should the Hadiths not be perfected, surely the days of cutting hands off, stoning, lashing, behading, honour killings, should be left to the dark-ages.

[MuslimInshallah]

the Qur'an if it was the perfect word of Allah do you not think man would automatically be satisfied and uplifted.

Hello again Optimal Unity,


Mmm, I think you have completely missed my point. If you think anyone reading the Qur'an should automatically behave well, it means that you don't believe in free will.


Unfortunately, people across the globe can take beautiful texts, concepts, ideas... and do the most horrible things. Frankly, compared to today, the European Dark Ages start to look like a simpler, gentler time (May God Forgive us all)!!! Now we can napalm people,destroy their environments, and rape 2 million women and children in brief space of time (Russians in Germany post WW-II). We can drop depleted uranium on civilian populations, mow people down with automatic gunfire, set oilfields burning for months, and gas people into horrible deaths.


Why do we do these things? Why cannot we see the beautiful in our various texts?


Because God Gave us this choice, and -all too often- we choose to be blind.


May we all look for the beautiful in His Words.

[Optimal Unity]

Hello again Optimal Unity,


Mmm, I think you have completely missed my point. If you think anyone reading the Qur'an should automatically behave well, it means that you don't believe in free will.


Unfortunately, people across the globe can take beautiful texts, concepts, ideas... and do the most horrible things. Frankly, compared to today, the European Dark Ages start to look like a simpler, gentler time (May God Forgive us all)!!! Now we can napalm people,destroy their environments, and rape 2 million women and children in brief space of time (Russians in Germany post WW-II). We can drop depleted uranium on civilian populations, mow people down with automatic gunfire, set oilfields burning for months, and gas people into horrible deaths.


Why do we do these things? Why cannot we see the beautiful in our various texts?


Because God Gave us this choice, and -all too often- we choose to be blind.


May we all look for the beautiful in His Words.

Hello again MuslimInshallah, thank you for participating, May Allah guide you to the correct path,

Yes I do think if the holy of holy texts is read that if that text was truly of Allah you would recognise the truth and you would be compelled to not only see beauty but be part of the beauty that would be for every one that reads it, I do believe in free will and I do believe Allah gave that to us however in this present construct where the people are still doing horrible things is because there is corruption in everything as is there is beauty, it is a shared duality, beautiful ugly, good bad, divine evil, male female, in out, up down, left right, nothing including the Qur'an has escaped it. Everything must be revised as this existence is not the Ultimate Truth or the path to Allah.

Once Islam sees they too have been fooled by the Devil, we will be able to lift the veil that has been put over all of our eyes.

I am not saying the Qur'an is not beautiful, just that it is wrong to be fanatically self righteous that you see it as perfect.

As I have indicated I can point to a number of reasons for this.

[Woodrow]

Greeting in return MuslimInshallah, may Allah guide you.

Yes I understand why you would find my reasoning difficult to comprehend.

Indeed the Qur'an is a beautiful guide, but is it perfect? Muslims have fanatically served the Qur'an to the point where killing is accepted if anything is being criticised of the Qur'an if it was the perfect word of Allah do you not think man would automatically be satisfied and uplifted. I can go into the reasons why I recognise it is not perfect and I would be happy to discuss that with anyone with the patience to show me otherwise.

And so if it is not perfect, should it not be perfected?

Should the Hadiths not be perfected, surely the days of cutting hands off, stoning, lashing, behading, honour killings, should be left to the dark-ages.

Peace,

At the moment I am only going to address the last sentence:

Should the Hadiths not be perfected, surely the days of cutting hands off, stoning, lashing, behading, honour killings, should be left to the dark-ages.

I doubt if the word "Perfected" applies in the sense you seem to be indicating.

The Ahadith (That is the plural of Hadith) are nothing more nor less than eye witness accounts of what people heard and said. To change one would be tampering with the testimony of a witness. How does one perfect what a witness reported hearing and or Seeing?

Through the Ahadith we have eyewitness reports of How Muhammad(saws) worshiped, How he lived, what he taught about Islam, what He believed and personal advice he gave.

The Ahadith are the basic source for The Sunnah, The Madhabs and the 5 Pillars among other things.

[Optimal Unity]

Peace,

At the moment I am only going to address the last sentence:



I doubt if the word "Perfected" applies in the sense you seem to be indicating.

The Ahadith (That is the plural of Hadith) are nothing more nor less than eye witness accounts of what people heard and said. To change one would be tampering with the testimony of a witness. How does one perfect what a witness reported hearing and or Seeing?

Through the Ahadith we have eyewitness reports of How Muhammad(saws) worshiped, How he lived, what he taught about Islam, what He believed and personal advice he gave.

The Ahadith are the basic source for The Sunnah, The Madhabs and the 5 Pillars among other things.

And peace with you. Thank you for your guidance...

Yes thank you for the correction, my misunderstanding of the meaning oh Hadith,

I mean the laws and instructions on what to do needs to be perfected and updated. Is there a name for them, is this the Sharia Laws?

[greenhill]

Do you know if the Quran repeats any stories from the Torah or New Testament?

Yes there are similarities. About the prophets. About worship etc. But if we have to ask, why so many Books? Because mankind needed to grow and become more 'mature'. As we learn we can reason things better. I have stated this in some other threads, the essence of the Psalms was to remind people of Allah. To guide people on worship and prayers. The Torah was also about worship and prayer but added a new dimension of to do unto others what you would expect others to do unto you, (hence a guide for human interaction). Once people can accept this, the Bible introduced a 'higher' value to self by giving the option to forgive (to turn the other cheek) which paved the way to end generational feuds, Once these messages were understood, the time was right for the Quran which essentially gave guidelines on how to live in a community. Hence taking care of orphans and marrying up to 4 wives (so as to ensure the community was strong and that no one was left behind to defend themselves).

surely the days of cutting hands off, stoning, lashing, behading, honour killings, should be left to the dark-ages.

Again, this law is to act as a deterrent. Hanging in my country for drug trafficking is draconian, but heck, if you flout the law knowingly that that IS the punishment, can you complain? Of course, then it is up to the panel sitting to decide on the punishment. It is their call. They can choose to be liberal or not.

Everything must be revised as this existence is not the Ultimate Truth or the path to Allah.
Personally, the way I see this is that pretty much everything we see in this world is an illusion and the illusion of the world (e.g. nice guys finish last) will make people behave unethically to gain an advantage and it will appear to be a justifiable act although the 'reality' is that it is not justifiable. How could we compute being good and getting nothing whilst being 'bad' gains. So should we revise our behavior or laws to allow us now to 'cheat'? To believe in the law, to strive to improve ourselves in context of the law, to be patient with whatever outcome and to strive towards pleasing the Al-Mighty, rather than to give up and find an easier path. That is not the guided way.

If I were to say I want to be a Christian, which denomination should I follow? All of them have been altered to suit those who wrote and rewrote the doctrine(s). At least in Islam, this liberty is NOT given to anyone. Only the interpretations and even that, it is left to the Ulamas. I think I prefer it this way.

Once Islam sees they too have been fooled by the Devil, we will be able to lift the veil that has been put over all of our eyes.

The devil will always strive to mislead us. The first weapon he will use against us is our false sense of pride. That we think we know better. That we think we are smarter than the words of Allah. That we think we can change it because we feel it dopes not make any sense or for whatever other reason(s). Then the devil has been successful in pulling the veil over our eyes to say that it is OK to change the laws.

I am not saying the Qur'an is not beautiful, just that it is wrong to be fanatically self righteous that you see it as perfect.

This statement about feeling self righteous has 'pride' woven in its fabric. Allah is the Lord of the Universe/Multiverse, He claimed it to be perfected, and the muslims believe it. We did not conjure up this belief out of nowhere but merely upholding what Allah Himself has said in the Quran. So it is not self righteous as you would have it. It is a fact as commented by Allah Himself.

May you also find guidance...

Peace :shade:

[Optimal Unity]

The devil will always strive to mislead us. The first weapon he will use against us is our false sense of pride. That we think we know better. That we think we are smarter than the words of Allah. That we think we can change it because we feel it dopes not make any sense or for whatever other reason(s). Then the devil has been successful in pulling the veil over our eyes to say that it is OK to change the laws.

Are you insinuating I am working with the Devil, is that what you see, do you think it is that easy, be a robot and blindly follow something that has been provided by a immature civilisation, and if anyone calims to know better look at them as the Devil?

Yes there are similarities. About the prophets. About worship etc. But if we have to ask, why so many Books? Because mankind needed to grow and become more 'mature'. As we learn we can reason things better. I have stated this in some other threads, the essence of the Psalms was to remind people of Allah. To guide people on worship and prayers. The Torah was also about worship and prayer but added a new dimension of to do unto others what you would expect others to do unto you, (hence a guide for human interaction). Once people can accept this, the Bible introduced a 'higher' value to self by giving the option to forgive (to turn the other cheek) which paved the way to end generational feuds, Once these messages were understood, the time was right for the Quran which essentially gave guidelines on how to live in a community. Hence taking care of orphans and marrying up to 4 wives (so as to ensure the community was strong and that no one was left behind to defend themselves).

The fact that the Qur'an uses the Psalms and Torah in its writing is the proof that it is not perfect and must be revised, did not Muhammad (pbuh) say that the meaning of the Torah and the Psalms will be discovered in the end of times, the Torah and Psalms are works of double meaning and they have been taken literally by the deceived, they are not what they appear to be. Muhammad had a good reason to include them as his essence was to unify the tribes and so it must be included, it does not make them accurate or perfect words from Allah.

​

Again, this law is to act as a deterrent. Hanging in my country for drug trafficking is draconian, but heck, if you flout the law knowingly that that IS the punishment, can you complain? Of course, then it is up to the panel sitting to decide on the punishment. It is their call. They can choose to be liberal or not.

The fact you need a deterrent is the statement on how impure and corrupt the edict is, and what you do is seek Allah and seek to change that that is corrupt and clearly wrong.


​

This statement about feeling self righteous has 'pride' woven in its fabric. Allah is the Lord of the Universe/Multiverse, He claimed it to be perfected, and the muslims believe it. We did not conjure up this belief out of nowhere but merely upholding what Allah Himself has said in the Quran. So it is not self righteous as you would have it. It is a fact as commented by Allah Himself.

May you also find guidance...

Peace

I am accusing those that a robotic in their faith to be self-righteous, you really think there is a formula to be with Allah?

I am already guided, but thank you for your wishes, may it continue to fulfilment of prophesy.

Peace be with you too.

[greenhill]

Are you insinuating I am working with the Devil, is that what you see, do you think it is that easy, be a robot and blindly follow something that has been provided by a immature civilisation, and if anyone calims to know better look at them as the Devil?

There is no insinuation here. Just a general statement. Everybody has questions and in asking them does not in anyway imply that they are working with the devil. The fall of Satan is as a result of his pride. He felt he was better than humans to the point of rebelling against the command of Allah. Such a simple thing but severe in consequences. Hence, what I am saying is that could be our folly, meaning mine too! Pride is a common human characteristic so please do not take it as me having a 'go' at you. Just responding to your question.

On robotic faith, no it is not. It requires a 'higher' level of faith and 'intellect(?)'. Quran repeatedly mentions for us to use our 'reasoning skills' to 'see' the truth. 100% not robotic function but 100% human. Robots cannot reason.

Peace :shade:

[Optimal Unity]

There is no insinuation here. Just a general statement. Everybody has questions and in asking them does not in anyway imply that they are working with the devil. The fall of Satan is as a result of his pride. He felt he was better than humans to the point of rebelling against the command of Allah. Such a simple thing but severe in consequences. Hence, what I am saying is that could be our folly, meaning mine too! Pride is a common human characteristic so please do not take it as me having a 'go' at you. Just responding to your question.

On robotic faith, no it is not. It requires a 'higher' level of faith and 'intellect(?)'. Quran repeatedly mentions for us to use our 'reasoning skills' to 'see' the truth. 100% not robotic function but 100% human. Robots cannot reason.

Peace :shade:

Thank you, yes I am well aware of the Devil have had my own battle with it.

Would you be kind and show me some of the words in the Qur'an where it calls for utilising 'reasoning skills'?

[greenhill]

These are some I looked up. There are plenty more but I haven't the time to search. There are other interesting related items too...

“Verily, the vilest of all creatures in the sight of God are those deaf, those dumb ones who do not use their intellect.” (Quran; 8:22)
"They will not fight you all except within fortified cities or from behind walls. Their violence among themselves is severe. You think they are together, but their hearts are diverse. That is because they are a people who do not reason.' (59:14)
˜And these examples We present to the people, but none will understand them except those of knowledge.' (29:43) In addition, in few occasions, the Quran tells the believers, to ponder and learn from the Quran itself, Indeed, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an that you might understand.' (12:2)
The believers are also reminded to reflect upon the deceptions of Satan (shaytaan) that has led many astray, ˜And he had already led astray from among you much of creation, so did you not use reason?' (36:62).

Peace :shade:

[Optimal Unity]

These are some I looked up. There are plenty more but I haven't the time to search. There are other interesting related items too...

“Verily, the vilest of all creatures in the sight of God are those deaf, those dumb ones who do not use their intellect.” (Quran; 8:22)
"They will not fight you all except within fortified cities or from behind walls. Their violence among themselves is severe. You think they are together, but their hearts are diverse. That is because they are a people who do not reason.' (59:14)
˜And these examples We present to the people, but none will understand them except those of knowledge.' (29:43) In addition, in few occasions, the Quran tells the believers, to ponder and learn from the Quran itself, Indeed, We have sent it down as an Arabic Qur'an that you might understand.' (12:2)
The believers are also reminded to reflect upon the deceptions of Satan (shaytaan) that has led many astray, ˜And he had already led astray from among you much of creation, so did you not use reason?' (36:62).

Peace

Thank you. Certainly wisdom can be read in those word, though I would not call any human a vile creature, no matter how dumb, blind or lacked intellect, I would also say that we no longer fight from behind walls or fortified cities, it does point to my indication that there is a requirement for an update. But that is the least of our worries, the Devil has worked his ways into the hearts of many, modifying a few words is not important in the comming battle the biggest issue for Islam is how to update the image of being a religion of violence.

It is a beautiful thing to submit to Allah in the name of Islam, but to create the violence that goes on today in Muslim countries, something is seriously wrong with Islam. I hope to be able to find out and help.

[Woodrow]

And peace with you. Thank you for your guidance...

Yes thank you for the correction, my misunderstanding of the meaning oh Hadith,

I mean the laws and instructions on what to do needs to be perfected and updated. Is there a name for them, is this the Sharia Laws?

Yes there are laws for the governing of our earthly life. Islamic Jurisprudence is quite complex and is based upon the Qur'an and Sunnah. While Islamic law is called Sharia, Sharia is much more complex than what the Media portrays.

For a basic understanding one needs to have some knowledge of the Madhabs. True Sharia entails the full following of one of the 4 Madhabs.

To give you a starting point here is a brief introduction to Madhabs. It actually would take a lifetime of study to fully be a master of just one Madhab.

Here is the LINK

[Optimal Unity]

Yes there are laws for the governing of our earthly life. Islamic Jurisprudence is quite complex and is based upon the Qur'an and Sunnah. While Islamic law is called Sharia, Sharia is much more complex than what the Media portrays.

For a basic understanding one needs to have some knowledge of the Madhabs. True Sharia entails the full following of one of the 4 Madhabs.

To give you a starting point here is a brief introduction to Madhabs. It actually would take a lifetime of study to fully be a master of just one Madhab.

Here is the LINK

Thank you for the link.

Muslims have realized that to follow amadhhab means to follow a super scholar who not only had a comprehensive knowledge of the Qur'an and hadith texts relating to each issue he gave judgements on, but also lived in an age a millennium closer to the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and his Companions (sic)...

I am curious is there a clear record of where there has been addition to the Madhhab by amadhhab that is not a direct companion of Muhammad, did Shea and Sunni divide due to the following of different companions?

Thank you for your patience, my study method is under the guidance of Allah, reading all of the text or searching on Google slightly taints the path, your guidance is appreciated.

[Woodrow]

Thank you for the link.

[/I][/I] I am curious is there a clear record of where there has been addition to the Madhhab by amadhhab that is not a direct companion of Muhammad, did Shea and Sunni divide due to the following of different companions?

Thank you for your patience, my study method is under the guidance of Allah, reading all of the text or searching on Google slightly taints the path, your guidance is appreciated.

LOL that appears to have been a typo in the text. I believe that should have been "A Madhhab" Madhhab is just one of the spellings of Madhab. As many Arabic letters have no English letters with the same sounds. People try to spell them phonetically a result being you get variations in the spellings. other examples you will find adhan also spelled athan. diker also spelled ziker. Allaah(swt) also spelled Allah(swt) those are just a few words you can not get the actual pronunciation by using English letters.

There are 4 Madhabs recognized by Sunni each is correct and the 4 are equal. A person is to follow one and only one, no picking just what you like from each. General the person will follow the Madhab the nation uses for it's laws.

There have been and are additional madhabs but they are considered to be recent innovations and not permissible.



The split between Shi'ite and Sunni came as a result as to who should be the successor to Muhammad(saws)

[naba]

Yes u r right all creation obey Allah, it is we and jinn who had been granted free will by Allah.Allah in ch 67 v 2 of Quran says Allah created life and death to test us