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saifdeen
01-12-2015, 12:11 AM
This is not a discussion as you can see but a request for volunteers, therefore please refrain from giving your opinions or "according to mes", go start a new thread for that. In short, if you haven't brought the whole dollar, begone with your 2 cents.

I've been thinking lately on countering the shift to drive a wedge between Islam and the west and the narrative to parallel Islam with violence. What's the most effective way with our resources? Before I tell you about what I've come up with, a little background on me and my aims:

I'm a Muslim (ofc) in Europe. I've set up/helped set up a few successful companies but would now like to bring this mentality to deal with the sensitive issues facing us, with aims to use our similar mindsets and this boards voluntary crowd-power. I'm seeing ever increasing Islamophobia on one side and a sort of impotent hopelessness on the other. I realise change is needed before the melting pot reaches a boiling point, not necessarily the "revolution" All-Sissi is on about which is a joke, but more of the tolerance and altruism that Islam is already conveying to us (not us moderates?! but us REAL Muslims).

I am talking about modern dawah. The success of any dawah lies in the reach it has - its "marketability". This I have analysed to be easy actually. You might think otherwise since some of our competitors (business term for enemy) include Rubert Murdoch and other media conglomerates, America, and the general brainwashed masses. I don't want to go into too much detail on the marketing here as that will be explained later, suffice to say WHAT we're marketing is more important than its promotion. If you get in a position of making something awesome, success comes with the territory. I will give you a clue though: the JIDF has created a propaganda army and is still losing (for instance the last Israel operation), they are losing to Muslims who aren't commenters for a living but here and there correct misconceptions they pass by. Voluntary crowd-power wins.

The work itself will comprise of (for now) countering misconceptions and showing a more TRUE Islam. To achieve this we will be using a fresh approach to impart or disclose the oldie-but-goldie tried and tested methods of dawah with a more radical new form which we will discuss here.
I'll stop here to see if there are any takers. Contributors are needed, your posts here or elsewhere can sufice. If you know of other forums etc that you can point me to or you can subscribe more manpower from would be great.
In conclusion, if you've ever wanted to fight back but didn't have a good enough outlet, I offer you a solution from the comfort of your laptops at home. If successful, the sky is the limit for this movement! (or our effort is the limit - can't sell you a dream)

Original article with working links is posted on Reddit.com/r/islam/comments/2s3jpm/contribute_to_my_struggle_against_islamophobia/
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truthseeker63
01-12-2015, 08:57 AM
WS you can do what you want but I voted No, pointless I don't believe Islamophobia would exist at least not in large numbers if there were not Muslims commiting violence in the name

of Islam for the record I believe in fighting hate crimes like anti muslim hate crimes those should be stopped but I don't care if Douglas Murray doesn't like Islam also he has no power most people I know that hate Islam don't know who Douglas Murray is or care about Douglas Murray by the way you don't need wriiters reporters to promote Islamophobia just watch the tv news or read newspaper or read the news when people hear about terrorism they think of muslim people may not all muslims but certain people here Im sure will disagree but I don't see Robert Spencer or Pamela Geller as problems also some Non Muslims believe the term Islamophobia was inventedto stop any criticism of Terrorism or what they call radical muslims I myself have no idea but the Homosexual Lobby invented the term Homophobia to stop any criticism of Homosexuality/Gays thats why I don't use the term Islamophobia just like some Jews won't use the term Anti Semitism because it is a political tool used by the Zionist Lobby to stop any criticism of Jews just my personal opinion ?



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saifdeen
01-12-2015, 11:20 AM
Thank you for taking the time to respond. However, with all due respect, I have tried to be as clear as I could by discouraging giving any opinions on this thread like as you just did. I have identified a clear need to counter todays media narrative including the names you mentioned who are very proficient in acquiring nearly all of the interview spots (including Mr. Sam Harris, even Anjem Choudary). To parry their interpretation of Islam, I've established the need for a counter-propaganda initiative.

Islamophobia would exist at least not in large numbers if there were not Muslims commiting violence in the name
Maybe. This could be debated, however on the face-value you have classified another issue facing us, countering our own extremists. This is why I believe something different is needed to combat the enemies without and within also. 2 birds with one dawah stone essentially. It is quite simple, you change the narrative, you shift the paradigm of the current debates and everything falls into place. I believe I have identified this paradigm shift and am hoping enough people here or elsewhere can point me in the right direction or help.
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saifdeen
01-12-2015, 01:59 PM
What I intend to create is a book/ebook. A small book, colourful, less than 100 pages, preferrably less than 50. Connects with kids as well as adults' worries. The PURPOSE of this book is not to create just another book that will get lost on the dawah table (srilankamuslims.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/islamic-dawah-books.jpg). The purpose of this book is to start a new narrative. A book because for now, we need to formulate a good discussion platform, once successful a small book can be exported into any other form of dawah.

Think of Islam now; violent, foreign and intolerant. Think of Islam after this book and effectively the related words should be peaceful, familiar and ofcourse tolerant.

To achieve this paradigm shift, the book will argue for one that Islam has been here from the beginning (in light of God vs Man). It should touch universal topics on altruism vs darwinism and capitalism, arguing that Islam is the definition of an altruistic society in practice, in short synonymising Islam with the word altruism and countering that all other non-religious dogmas have a hidden agenda or not being "peaceful or altruistic". However this isn't a political book and thus should only brief this with good evidence.
A point of note here, the book doesn't aim to close the gap created by this clash of civilisations, it actually aims to exacerbate this problem by furthering to drive a wedge between one side and the other. To do this, it will appeal to the humanistic/moral conscience of the population through their acceptance of the rich vs poor narrative to include rich (egoistic) vs poor (altruistic). This will achieve to highlight the root of the Islamic message (peace and controlling your ego), while also clearing up the hatred against it.

All good campaigns need a good slogan (yes we can!) and correlating Islam with Peace is a good start. The title of the book will achieve this through the use of character superposition in the title "This is Islam/Peace". Or even a small hologram that will change the last word depending on the viewing angle.

The subjects covered in the book are varied and up for discussion here, however some essential ones I intend to include are (all briefly):

1. root of Islam, prophet stories, prophets before that, definition of Islam/peace,
2. history since then, did it conquer by sword, inventions/contributions, already had renaissance - golden era and prophet himself
3. Islam today, the wars and spotlight, shariah
4. the future, does it need another renaissance? (al-sissi), what Islam stands for altruism vs agenda, seeking to minimise the ego

It may follow a history, present, future sort of narrative.

Among other things it should achieve to:

Counter today's narrative and to give a new narrative and debate points
Identify the special status of Islam as opposed to other religions(universal vs local/tribal)
Establish the history, identity and future (place) of Islam in modern light
To sympathise and empathise with the disenfranchised etc
To establish Shariah as an antithetical to modern day political dogmas and argue its validity

Your contribution to this is as varied as you want it to be. You could write up articles within, you could edit others work, publicize or just correct mistakes or spell-check. If you need any motivation outside of your drive for change: think of Wikipedia, Kickstarter or most of you are probably using Mozilla Firefox - all crowd sourced or open sourced, so don't sell yourself short.

Your first task however, is to UNDERSTAND what I am proposing.
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saifdeen
01-12-2015, 04:02 PM

Continued from the discussions on other forums - get involved please!

What exactly are you preaching, and how will you do it? What would you like us to do?


Excellent questions and very engaging.
1. I'm not preaching, rather trying to change how Islam is viewed today. 2. I will hope to do this by creating a work of dawah that can reach a wide audience and sway thinking from today's narrative of violent religion to something I deem is closer to the original. 3. You will all hopefully partake and give your contributions in this dawah work, it could be anything from volunteering as an editor to merely voicing a concern you want added in this work.

Many liberal non-Muslims can argue that most Muslims are alright, Islam however has been smeared and you would be hard pressed to find one arguing Islam is peaceful or tolerant. Have you ever seen one explaining to another the benefits of Shariah or whether we are exempt from needing a revolution or renaissance as has befallen previous ideologies?

The problem with the current form of dawah is that it all abides by the long-winded, out-dated approach you may be familiar with, the old Ahmed Deedat arguments and the same points since the 70s. What I am proposing is a new format, by representing Islam in a way that should appeal to roughly 80% of the world human interests, and even the 20% against it will only be against it for personal reasons. For this, the narrative needs to change, Islam does not need reformation but the current conception of Islam needs to change, among Muslims and non-Muslims alike.
The advantages of writing this book include not just all this but a successful branding/slogan publicity that will reach a WIDE audience - hopefully. This will start the exposure to these new ideas that is needed to start change within the society, either acceptance and tolerance or the culmination of this clash of civilisations.
All from a book with some radical new views. Please continue your interest in this work as I have already begun writing portions/planning stages.

Subhanallah there is nothing wrong with Deedats dawah, it truly stands the test of time and I am not calling to modernise it - in my first post I call those ones oldies-but-goldies. I am however calling to change the narrative with a very simple twist of ideas.

Look at it like this:

Islam now is one of many religions worldwide. Lately, there has been a trend of violence associated with Islam. The story is that Islam IS violent. History-wise, BBC documentaries tell us Islam has been conquering by the sword, and currently news tells us every time a Muslim man sneezes on the other side of the world.
The argument, the whole debate needs to change. Do you understand? If the argument stays as it is, we will continue to plead "no Islam is not violent" while more and more violence is exposed to the public until either most Muslims moderate their Islam or simply leave it - or the western people do another crusade against us.

To change this, 2 things need to happen:
either Islam is changed - modernised, moderated
or Islam is good as it is and the dawah must be changed or increased

No we are not reinventing the deen astagfurullah.
We are changing the current arguments completely. For instance, recently Rupert Murdoch made a twitter saying all Muslims including the innocents have to condemn the terrorists. Arguing with him never won anything because he had many positive re-tweets and even newspapers exposing his 140 character criticism of Islam (essentially) to the whole world. Arguing with him on his level would only make more people get exposed to his intolerant views and agreeing with him. J.K Rowling however managed to turn the whole thing on its head by arguing instead that Rupert Murdoch should be responsible for all white Christian extremism like the inquisitions. Effectively deadening his argument and shining a light on his bigotry.

This is what I am proposing, a paradigm shift to the current argument.

A book CAN achieve this, look at post no. 11* where I linked 2 dawah books that changed millions of lives. The added bonus of our book is that it will involve the topics we all are worried about today, while like I said, changing the perception of Islam. Not through reforming Islam but changing the narrative.

*ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?429360-Contribute-to-my-struggle-against-Islamophobia&p=6271342&viewfull=1#post6271342
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Pygoscelis
01-23-2015, 05:02 PM
I think the narrative is indeed key, and I would point at the terms "Extremist" and "Islamist" that are currently becoming part of the narrative. Calling a violent, intolerant, hateful Muslim an "extremist" makes it sound like the more "muslim" you are the more violent, intolerant, and hateful you are, so that the extreme is a terrorist. Why can't an "extremist" muslim be one that does a ton of charity work, or even one that prays constantly? The same can be said of "Islamist". I like that you call it "militant" muslims, because that is what they are. And if you want to take it a step further, it would be in your interest to sell us the narrative that these militant muslims are not muslims at all, etc.

Many liberal non-Muslims can argue that most Muslims are alright, Islam however has been smeared and you would be hard pressed to find one arguing Islam is peaceful or tolerant. Have you ever seen one explaining to another the benefits of Shariah or whether we are exempt from needing a revolution or renaissance as has befallen previous ideologies?
This is true, and I would be one of them. Part of the problem is that the intolerance appears to us liberal non-muslims to be embedded right into the doctrines and even the holy book of Islam. But the same can be said of Christianity, and Christians have managed to sell the image of Christianity as kindness and charity (even while their bible has some very intolerant text in it). I don't see why Muslims can't do the same with Islam. As you say, Shariah isn't all about chopping off hands and killing apostates. It is also about usury and charity. If you want to sell islam, sell that aspect of it. And the more you do, the more your secular allies can stand with you against the enemies that you name in your OP.
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syed_z
01-23-2015, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This is true, and I would be one of them. Part of the problem is that the intolerance appears to us liberal non-muslims to be embedded right into the doctrines and even the holy book of Islam. But the same can be said of Christianity, and Christians have managed to sell the image of Christianity as kindness and charity (even while their bible has some very intolerant text in it). I don't see why Muslims can't do the same with Islam. As you say, Shariah isn't all about chopping off hands and killing apostates. It is also about usury and charity. If you want to sell islam, sell that aspect of it. And the more you do, the more your secular allies can stand with you against the enemies that you name in your OP.
Thanks for the advice.

I completely understand what your saying about Christianity, but Islam is not the case we cannot mould it according to our wishes and according to the wishes of the non muslims likes and dislikes especially those who are trying to defame Islam and the Prophet (saw) through mainstream media. Allah (swt) warns us against such acts:

(3:149) O you who have believed, if you obey those who disbelieve, they will turn you back on your heels, and you will [then] become losers.

The issue is not whether we change something or no, the issue we face is due to failure of Western investigative journalism and reporting, their lack of reporting with responsibility about Islam and Muslims is what has caused the problem, it seems that they care least about who actually did an act of terrorism in so and so part of the world, they all sing the same tune that is causing misconception among Western minds about Islam and Muslims.

There is also reason why majority of them sing the same tune and do not go to the path of investigation is because they fear for their career.....such as Tim Willcox:

A BBC reporter has faced calls to resign after he told the daughter of Holocaust survivors in Paris: 'Palestinians suffer hugely at Jewish hands as well'.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...#ixzz3Pfd8b95z

In fear of their careers they have to sing the tune.
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Pygoscelis
01-23-2015, 08:38 PM
How do you propose to change the western reporting, in the face of terrorist attacks linked to Islam? Or in the face of you saying "we cannot mold it according to the wishes of non-mulims" etc... in response to a call to play up the charity and downplay the intolerance?

If Islam really is about murdering aspostates, hating homosexuals, and flipping out at cartoons, we have a lost cause here. But if Islam is more about charity, stopping usury, etc, then we have something we can work with. Basically if Islam is itself hostile to the rest of us, we are going to be hostile in return and there isn't a whole lot that can be done about that. Either we can co-exist or we can not. Muslims have to decide which it is and work it out amongst themselves, and then the rest of us can react accordingly.
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saifdeen
01-29-2015, 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
And if you want to take it a step further, it would be in your interest to sell us the narrative that these militant muslims are not muslims at all, etc.


...........a call to play up the charity and downplay the intolerance?

If Islam really is about murdering apostates, hating homosexuals, and flipping out at cartoons, we have a lost cause here. But if Islam is more about charity, stopping usury, etc, then we have something we can work with.
Regarding the first bit, I'm not allowed to say people are not Muslims even though many do. The criteria for leaving Islam is clear, and unless they have done one of those acts personally I couldn't blanket apostasies them all. Most of them are sinning (misguided) Muslims, rest are potential hypocrites.

I understand you're idea of playing up one aspect of Islam more, it makes sense. But as syed_z replied, it only makes sense to those that do not understand Islam well. You mentioned you're a non-Muslim and it shows from this, every learned Muslim sees the full beauty of Islam, you see only the economic fairness side. That's what calls to you now because that's what you see missing in the world now.

As for apostates, homosexuals and cartoons, there's no lost cause because those are the Muslim acts not Islam. Treason laws do exist but they are well-known. If Muslims go overboard in actions, they need educating and this book is for them also.

But mainly the book is for people like yourself who cannot grasp the whole of Islam. It doesn't need any part of it to be hidden but the opposite. More of it should be exposed to make people understand the full complexity and truly the beauty. Why should you need 5, 10, 20 years of scholarly studying to be convinced, which is why it will firstly expose the "esoteric" knowledge to the masses. And with that scholarly knowledge I'll leave it up to the human nature of the people. If they see the values, they will advocate for it, if not, they will shun it, and you'll be able to tell what's in the soul of the person based on how he takes this news.

For instance, you understand the benefits of charity and banning usury. Hands down I can say you will agree with 99% of the rest of our values, with the 1% being your hesitancy to go all the way. But you clearly know there are those that are against charity and pro usury, those I hope are not too numerous or mankind is indeed brainwashed and lost.
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saifdeen
01-29-2015, 11:29 AM
Update: Book Chapters
Why can't I edit posts? Wanted to add all updates to the OP.

The book in a nutshell by chapters. If you want to help type up any part of it for your part in dawah, pick a topic/chapter, research it well, understand the narrative/angle by reading below. or don't worry as editors will put it together!

--------------------------------------------------------------------
INTRODUCTION (ABOUT THE BOOK)

You may have heard of Islam, what do you understand and will it be the same after this book
The main differences in religions, how Islam is different. ***Introduction to universality of Islam and inclusive salvation
This book is for both Muslims and non-Muslims if they want to get educated
This book is not aiming to reform anything, but to clear the air of what we believe, and why others should understand, if not believe

---------------------------------------------------------------------
PREFACE
***Introduction to the argument of ego vs non-ego, closed heart/assurity vs open heart/non-assurance, quote verse 2:4/5 which is an introduction to the Quran
and who it is written for, thus who religion is for.
Consider arguing the psychology behind this and the philosophical ramifications of salvation etc


---------------------------------------------------------------------

HISTORY

The origin, God creates, guides and why, refusals and why
What was his guidance/religion, how did it transfer in history and how that means Islam is peace through submission
Prophets and the last prophet
The failures of previous scriptures, why it was in Gods plan and why this has been assured
Since the founding of Islam, did it conquer by sword? inventions/contributions, its reformers it already had

----------------------------------------------------------------------
TODAY

Islam today and global ramifications
The wars and the spotlight
Misconceptions and criticisms
Introduction to conspiracy theories, why we believe some and their validity
Introduction to unhappiness with the status-quo, zeitgeist movement, venus project etc and revolutions

------------------------------------------------------------------------
FUTURE

Does it need a reformation/moderation?
If Islam is perfect, is a utopia possible?
Living in one and what it means for you
What it stands for selfish agendas vs altruism, minimization of the ego vs survival of fittest, chimps vs bonobos
Moving forward and what it means for humanity

------------------------------------------------------------------------
CONCLUSION

Small conclusion expanding on the last point and giving thanks for reading etc, what to do and how to contribute

--------------------------------------------------------------------------
REFERENCES

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Acknowledgements, contributors, about the authors
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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saifdeen
01-31-2015, 01:44 AM
Continued discussion from elsewhere
I'm just trying to understand you proposal. Before I volunteer I need to know what I would be volunteering for.

You say that the book will include information on the possibility of Islam needing a renaissance. What exactly do you mean by the use of the term?


Have a look at this clip of a show called The Big Questions - Does Islam need better PR? (youtube.com/watch?v=_TFs_Y43sgc)

You will agree in fact yes, Islam needs better PR, as evidenced by the second speaker trying to link the Taliban and it's actions - which is a different topic - to the question at hand. The presenter starts off by saying 7/10 people belief Islam to be unequal to women, 50% believe it to be violent. If both those are wrong conceptions, then strides must be taken to overturn those conceptualizations.

So this is my effort of a PR campaign. You can contribute by undertaking research, typing tasks, editing, fact-checking etc.
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Karl
02-01-2015, 08:20 PM
I think people are missing the real meaning of Islam. God is greatest. All political movements are corrupted. Islam is Holy Anarchy on Earth as the man made Systems always serves the few and exploits the many. So God is the boss and we don't bend our knee to anyone but the boss. So there are some naughty ones out there. Charles Manson once said that he was a reflexion of society. So maybe the "extremists" are just reflections too. You reap what you sow. Islam is not a movement it's a religion. Best to stay out of politics, no use getting down with the devil.
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saifdeen
02-01-2015, 09:14 PM
Originally Posted by Karl
I think people are missing the real meaning of Islam. God is greatest. All political movements are corrupted. Islam is Holy Anarchy on Earth as the man made Systems always serves the few and exploits the many. So God is the boss and we don't bend our knee to anyone but the boss. So there are some naughty ones out there. Charles Manson once said that he was a reflexion of society. So maybe the "extremists" are just reflections too. You reap what you sow. Islam is not a movement it's a religion. Best to stay out of politics, no use getting down with the devil.
Disagree with your last 2 sentences. Islam is a religious movement. It cannot stay out of politics because it's all-encompassing in human lives. From diet, society to politics, it shoves its nose in every business because it deals in the human business. Wherever humans go, Islam goes with it. I also don't understand the last bit about the devil, you saying politics is of the devil?
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Scimitar
02-02-2015, 03:21 AM
Assalaam alaikum

I'm with you, I'm also London based... we should meet.

Scimi
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Karl
02-02-2015, 03:44 AM
Originally Posted by saifdeen
Disagree with your last 2 sentences. Islam is a religious movement. It cannot stay out of politics because it's all-encompassing in human lives. From diet, society to politics, it shoves its nose in every business because it deals in the human business. Wherever humans go, Islam goes with it. I also don't understand the last bit about the devil, you saying politics is of the devil?
Yes politics is of the devil. If you use a religion to gain power and use it to oppress people you become a despot and serve Satan.
Don't push fanaticism use the pious way it works best. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. When the dogs bark don't poke them with a stick be patient.
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saifdeen
02-02-2015, 10:01 AM
Originally Posted by Karl
Yes politics is of the devil. If you use a religion to gain power and use it to oppress people you become a despot and serve Satan.
Don't push fanaticism use the pious way it works best. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar. When the dogs bark don't poke them with a stick be patient.
Ah, I totally see what you're saying even though we were looking at politics differently.

If you use this definition then yes, you can argue politics is wrong:
Politics is the practice and theory of influencing other people on a global, civic or individual level. More narrowly, it refers to achieving and exercising positions of governance — organized control over a human community, particularly a state.

But if you understand it like this, then you can argue that politics is necessary for human function:
Furthermore, politics is the study or practice of the distribution of power and resources within a given community (a hierarchically organized population) as well as the interrelationship(s) between communities.

The only disagreeable bit being the hierarchical part, but organisation being fundamental. But yes, you're right about gaining power and oppressing people, the people must be willing to be governed by shariah or they'll see you as oppressors no matter what reason you have.

Many would disagree about the fanaticism part however. (1)Do you call enjoining good and forbidding evil fanaticism? (2)What do you make of using current politics to campaign for Shariah? (3)If you believe it's wrong, do you think the only way is to revolutionise the people to disenchant them from democracy etc?
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saifdeen
02-02-2015, 10:07 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Assalaam alaikum

I'm with you, I'm also London based... we should meet.

Scimi
I was going to PM you my number, but am still a limited member. You can try PM me yours, or I can let you know whats uncompleted on here.
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Karl
02-02-2015, 08:40 PM
Originally Posted by saifdeen
Ah, I totally see what you're saying even though we were looking at politics differently.

If you use this definition then yes, you can argue politics is wrong:
Politics is the practice and theory of influencing other people on a global, civic or individual level. More narrowly, it refers to achieving and exercising positions of governance — organized control over a human community, particularly a state.

But if you understand it like this, then you can argue that politics is necessary for human function:
Furthermore, politics is the study or practice of the distribution of power and resources within a given community (a hierarchically organized population) as well as the interrelationship(s) between communities.

The only disagreeable bit being the hierarchical part, but organisation being fundamental. But yes, you're right about gaining power and oppressing people, the people must be willing to be governed by shariah or they'll see you as oppressors no matter what reason you have.

Many would disagree about the fanaticism part however. (1)Do you call enjoining good and forbidding evil fanaticism? (2)What do you make of using current politics to campaign for Shariah? (3)If you believe it's wrong, do you think the only way is to revolutionise the people to disenchant them from democracy etc?
People in the West are already disenchanted with democracy as voter turn out is getting lower and lower. The problem is they are turning to international socialism, which is the worst system and it is fanatical about instigating universal international law and oppression globally. Islam is a thorn in it's side as the tenets do not comply with this system. Others are more nihilistic and think stuff this corrupt circus. While others are just waiting for Jesus to sort it out.

Were the Prophets fanatics? No they gave the message you can take it or leave it. We are only messengers they said. So why should others force their values, morals etc on others now?

Shariah can only function in a more or less totally devout country of Muslims. So it is pointless pushing it around the world. The best would be to promote it in the most devout Muslim country you can find.
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saifdeen
02-02-2015, 09:34 PM
Originally Posted by Karl
People in the West are already disenchanted with democracy as voter turn out is getting lower and lower. The problem is they are turning to international socialism, which is the worst system and it is fanatical about instigating universal international law and oppression globally. Islam is a thorn in it's side as the tenets do not comply with this system. Others are more nihilistic and think stuff this corrupt circus. While others are just waiting for Jesus to sort it out.

Were the Prophets fanatics? No they gave the message you can take it or leave it. We are only messengers they said. So why should others force their values, morals etc on others now?

Shariah can only function in a more or less totally devout country of Muslims. So it is pointless pushing it around the world. The best would be to promote it in the most devout Muslim country you can find.
I agree with your view and this future direction is what this book is trying to address by 1. explaining these ideologies in so many words and 2. opening Islam to peoples radar to oppose the negative PR (of the future political system you mentioned).

If you're right and tomorrow it all comes to pass, there needs to be a naturally opposing worldview and anarchism or etc cannot work sufficiently, Islam currently also cannot work as it is a religion and a negative/declining one at that. So merge the 2, spirituality + anarchy is the direct opposite to the future (dajjal) global order.

Islam is both spirituality in the purest sense and politically as free as anarchism. Gods laws are for the greater good, whereas everything else is for the good of the few. Using the arguments in my posts from the top, this can work. Again, the idea is what this book is pushing. What do you think?
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Karl
02-02-2015, 11:40 PM
I think there is a rising of empires of the East and West and they will fight for supremacy. Islam is best to sit on the side line and wait it out. The more you pop your head up the more they will hammer you. Anarchism or self rule sounds good but is defensively weak. Monarchism is strongest but then there is a head for your enemy to cut off. Islam in it's chaotic dysfunctional state may ironically be the best form to survive in a world like this. The one good thing about man made order is that it never seems to last. Ouroboros comes to mind.
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saifdeen
02-04-2015, 02:23 AM
I agree for the most part, the sidelines bit not so much. Reason being a few factors you may not be taking into account (increase of adherents, coverage etc) this will be dealt with in the future section/chapters. Our part in this is PR to help influence for the better.

Another argument on this, Reza Aslan on topic of PR:

ASLAN: Well, first of all, let's be clear that every single organization, major organization, Muslim organization throughout the world and in the United States, every prominent individual, be it political or religious leaders, everyone has condemned, not just this attack, but every attack that occurs in the name of Islam. Anyone who keeps saying that we need to hear the moderate voice of Islam. Why aren't Muslims denouncing these violent attacks doesn't own Google. But that said, I do think that we do need to do a better job of providing a counter-narrative. What really I think puts an obstacle in the way is opinions like Ayaan [Hirsi Ali]'s and so many others in the political and the media mainstream who continue to say that 1.7 billion people are responsible for the actions of these extremists. That doesn't help the fight against radicalism. The answer to Islamic violence is Islamic peace. The answer to Islamic bigotry is Islamic pluralism, and so that's why I put the onus on the Muslim community, but I also recognize that that work is being done, that the voice of condemnation is deafening and if you don't hear it you're not listening.


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Scimitar
02-04-2015, 05:24 AM
Ayaan ali hirsi is a laughing stock to non Muslims, let alone Muslims - no one takes her seriously after tavis smiley shut her up on PBS.



Scimi
Reply

greenhill
02-04-2015, 09:47 AM
I've been reading posts in this thread and been trying to figure out if there was anything I could contribute.

Islamophobia.

If that is the 'angle' you are planning to broach it, perhaps it would be useful to relate it to the beginning of humankind, as in Syaitan's solemn oath to lead mankind astray and his claim that Allah will find very few who are grateful. With islam being the truth, how else could this plan work? Make it such that the world becomes islamophobic..(is there such a word?)

It makes sense to me....


:peace:
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greenhill
02-04-2015, 10:11 AM
“(Satan) said: ‘See You this one whom You have honored above me? If You will but grant me respite to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway – all but a few!’ ” [Sûrah al-Isrâ’: 62]

The message of truth is under attack. The prophet is being attacked, his ways.....the signs are there, and the nation is still in turmoil, divided 'politically', regionally, etc.

So easy to corrupt. Give them power. With that comes greed, pride, hoarding, oppression, arrogance etc. How far from the path will that be? How do we steer it back? What must be the realisation?

In reality we are the devil's toys. Or we chose to be an insan. It has to be about me and my intentions against me and my temptations, if I may put it as simply as I can. The other advantage I find with this is that I have less angst with matters I cannot effect. Does not mean I care less, but less emotional. It saves energy. But I digress. . .

:peace:
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greenhill
02-04-2015, 10:12 AM
“(Satan) said: ‘See You this one whom You have honored above me? If You will but grant me respite to the Day of Judgment, I will surely bring his descendants under my sway – all but a few!’ ” [Sûrah al-Isrâ’: 62]

The message of truth is under attack. The prophet is being attacked, his ways.....the signs are there, and the nation is still in turmoil, divided 'politically', regionally, etc.

So easy to corrupt. Give them power. With that comes greed, pride, hoarding, oppression, arrogance etc. How far from the path will that be? How do we steer it back? What must be the realisation?

In reality we are the devil's toys. Or we chose to be an insan. It has to be about me and my intentions against me and my temptations, if I may put it as simply as I can. The other advantage I find with this is that I have less angst with matters I cannot effect. Does not mean I care less, but less emotional. It saves energy. But I digress. . .

:peace:
Reply

saifdeen
02-04-2015, 02:39 PM
Excellent contributions. Scimi I got your message and will call you after 6 inshallah. No, Ayan is not the problem but she's part of the problem. Her angle was FGM being Islamic, women's rights and male-dominated societies, ignoring the fact that her culture, the Somali culture is actually more of a Maternalistic society if anything. Her equating Islam with these things did enough in the eyes of the public and the brainwash is successful, then you have the other angles like Anjem Choudhary, Robert Spencer, Sam Harris and loads of others biting at the image of Islam to which the media lap it up. :heated:

Greenhill, I actually dont like the word Islamophobia and regretted using that title for this topic instantly. It's the only word I could think of though other than hijacking antisemitism even though majority of Muslims are not Semites. I suppose that would be good counter-PR, exposing antisemitism to apply more to Islam than it does to European converts, but thought climbing that wall would be too hard.
I like your approach to the root of the problems with shaitan and will cover this in the history section, although I don't want to come too strongly from the Islamic theology, but more to what non-Muslims can relate to more. This doesn't mean burrowing Christian or other traditions - they are ignored - it means expanding Islam to include other traditions and then relating it universally to everyone.
The angle is an eye-opener document hoping to switch the current understanding of the world. My contributors keep saying is this your Communist Manifesto, and its a good analogy. It is supposed to divide opinions and change the status quo. It will talk about the past, explain the present, and go on to predict the future, all while explaining Islamic perspectives, universal worries such as the rich vs poor gap etc etc

Contributions from people with political, religious, economics even anthropology backgrounds would be great although nowadays most things can be researched well enough using the internet. That is what we're all doing now, picking a topic and researching it well enough to write a chapter on, then rotating the topics between ourselves to see if anything can be added/editted while making sure the narrative of the book is followed. Inshallah the first such topic will be posted soon here.
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