Panorama: The Battle for British Islam

[BeTheChange]

Asalamualykum

Hope your all good in sha Allah

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode...-british-islam

Panorama-The Battle for British Islam


As France tries to come to terms with the deaths of the 12 people murdered in the Islamist attack at the office of Charlie Hebdo magazine in Paris, Panorama investigates the battle for the hearts and minds of British Muslims. John Ware hears from Muslims facing an angry backlash for trying to promote a form of Islam which is in synch with British values. They believe that the way Islam has been practised here has more in common with extremist ideologies than some police officers, politicians or Muslim leaders have been prepared to admit.

The concern that the documentary raises is how our faith Islaam doesn't coincide with British values and the urgency of Britain wanting to 'modernise' Islaam to make it more acceptable for the British public and society as a whole.

I think whilst watching the documentary the below thread will also be useful as well in sha Allah.

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/134324442-sheikh-awlaki-battle-hearts-minds.html?highlight=battle+hearts - Bookmark this article, print & Share in sha Allah.

The documentary also advises that there is a group of Muslims who use the 'victim-hood' narrative to feed into the mentality of 'us & them' i.e. Muslims and the rest and this instills the mentality of jihad, war & hatred towards non-Muslims.

Watching the documentary reminded me of brother Tarek Mehanna artwork (May Allah swa give him & his family peace and raise him with the believers Ameen)

[سيف الله]

Salaam

A review of this documentary.

Response to the BBC’s Panorama Programme “The Battle For British Islam”

The tedious and historical Western ambition to reform Islam was exhibited once again on BBC’s Panorama show yesterday evening. It discarded Muslim concerns as being derived from a baseless ‘grievance culture’ that drew oxygen from an ‘us and them’ mentality. All the while it posited orthodox Islamic positions as ‘extreme’ views. Keeping in line with a tired routine, token Muslim contributors were paraded on screen to demonstrate that these notions stem from the community, rather than being a foreign import.

It is now clear – politicians and the media want to criminalise what they consider ‘non-violent’ ideas. After millions marched in defence of free speech in Paris, the irony that unpleasant views should be criminalised through ‘thought police’ legislation (which is being pushed through at record speed) was lost on a number of the show’s interviewees.

Yet this is now the demand – that Muslims must reject normative Islamic positions and stop speaking against foreign policy because such views are unpalatable and therefore ‘un-British’. “Extremism” is an arbitrary term used to outlaw ideas one does not accept – it has no inherent meaning. That new legislation should be introduced to police ideas leaves Britain’s claims to free speech in tatters.

However, there was a more dangerous undercurrent to the discussion; non-violent ideas may lead to violence and therefore need to be tackled through security measures. It was suggested that a Muslim simply upholding orthodox Islamic opinions could be more susceptible to committing acts of violence. Consequently, normative Islamic ideas were now the target: from schooling to marriage, to Islam for the Muslim world.

If ideas are to be criminalised because some may one day commit acts of violence in their name, then some of the most celebrated historical events in the West should be recast as triumphs for political violence. The “Enlightenment” should be held responsible for motivating violent upheaval in the continents of Europe and North America. As should many celebrated liberation struggles that used violence to gain independence from foreign control. Why not rebrand Mandela and others like him as terrorists? The list could go on.

To claim Muslim concerns are simply baseless ‘grievances’ and that Muslims should be happy and ‘thankful’ for their lot harks back to an old imperial trick. Can one say that the devastating consequences of destroying the Muslim world and keeping it weak (a project which started during the colonial era and now taken-up by its neo-liberal successors) is a baseless grievance? Can it be said that decades of support to this day for the oil baron monarchs of the gulf, the strongmen of the middle-east and the corrupt elites in South Asia, is a baseless grievance? How about a horrendous 14 year campaign in the heart of the Muslim world as part of the War on Terror that has left the Muslim world broken – should Muslims just get on with it?

Such twisted propositions will continue to be perpetuated as grievance history can pose major problems for politicians – dismissing it allows Western governments to ignore inconvenient truths. Readings of history may be redirected against the government, which may be blamed for past mistakes which therefore, refocuses the debate. Alternatively, controlling grievance narratives can lead to the harassment and persecution of anyone perceived to be part of a Fifth Column or the ‘enemies within’.

In reality, it is the frustration over the abysmal state of affairs and the failure of Muslim governments to act in the interests of their populations that fuels a cycle of tension in the Muslim world. Consequently there is blowback against the perceived aggressors and their agents. Until the root causes of this sorry state of affairs are addressed and an honest discussion undertaken that acknowledges these simple truths, we will continue to be locked into a cycle of polarisation.

For Muslims – despite the pressure and fear – they must recognise that holding on to Islam as revealed by Allah (swt) and lived by the Prophet (saw) is our example and guide which must be upheld under all circumstances.

“And We have revealed to you the Book with the truth, verifying what is before it of the Book and a guardian over it, therefore judge between them by what Allah has revealed, and do not follow their low desires (to turn away) from the truth that has come to you;” Quran 5:48

A ‘solution’ calling for Islamic reformation is a project designed to reproduce Islam in a liberal format, allowing Western powers feel to comfortable and less threatened by what is essentially a distinct and comprehensive value-system. To reform Islam in another image renders it no longer Islam, making it nothing other than that which it was forced to conform. It is a deceitful and redundant enterprise that shows no sign of taking root despite attempts lasting over a century and a half.

Ultimately, highlighting unpalatable truths about neoliberal western ventures and the failure of governments in the Muslim world to act is a truth that needs to be continually spoken. A Shariah-based state for the Muslim world on the Prophetic model still remains our desire, and remains the most popular form of government across the Muslims world despite the media narrative that casts Islam as the threat. In this light, we must continue to discuss, debate and give dawah to overcome the unfortunate depictions of Islam that have been falsely projected, dispelling the climate of fear created among Muslims and non-Muslims alike.

http://www.hizb.org.uk/current-affairs/response-to-the-bbcs-panorama-programme-the-battle-for-british-islam

[h-n]

I myself have watched the documentry which was basically a lot of garbage.

OK, the bit it was saying that an islamic channel was calling us the victims and was targeted to Muslims in the UK was wrong, saying it was an international broadcaster really doesn't help. One of the muslims who fled to I think Syria and came back and is now in jail, he wrote a letter to his mother, by that letter, he has shown that he didn't value much by appreciating what other people have done for him, his handwriting was bad along with his english, which shows that he should have respected his mother, by listening to her and making the most of his education and doing something of benefit to people and helping others which includes non-Muslims. So the message to Muslims should be to of course be religious, pursue a good education and be of help to others.

It was trying to address that this and them culture, which is pointing to the non-Muslims and the Muslims, which has never been a problem in co-existing.

Tony Blair amongst others denied that the terrorist were attacking countries because of the wars abroad. Not because people are not Muslim. Of course there were the cartoons which is appearing as a false flag thing.

Well anyway to be critical of Islam differentiating between Muslims and non-Muslims, and for the speakers on the show to say they are going to need to modernise Islam, they are really stupid. Of course God speaks of people who follow his commandments differently to those who don't.

Prophet Noah peace be upon him didn't say to the people, actually I am not going to say anything bad about what your doing, and that you and I should concentrate on living happily ever after.

It is a fact if any Prophet was to come to France etc, he would be telling them to repent to God, remember the Day of Judgement, Paradise and Hell. If they were to go on about their jargon ie secularism, makes no difference, no Prophet would accept such a thing, because he would still be telling them to repent or suffer the consquences by God. You can't just say to Prophet Jesus peace be upon that you need to accept our way of life.

It is not about accepting ideals that people have created themselves, ie the people themselves have not listened to their elders ie changed what from victorian clothing to the swinging sixties to now-so if they are asking the Muslims to listen to them-who should we be listening to? Their 20 year olds? Their teenagers??? It is actually they who disrespect their own adults and society. In the UK, we have plenty of elderly who are afraid of the youth. If anyone respected their country, there shouldn't be graffiti and no litter, dog poo etc.

I myself along with other Muslims have got along fine and respectfully with non-Muslims, we sleep for about 8 hours, work for roughly the same time, and eat and do whatever we want. So they talk of integeration in what regard?? It is about helping neighbours and others whenever we can. But it isn't about just accepting everything that they tell us to, which would throw the word tolerant out-tolerating something, means tolerating something that you don't like (ie people getting drunk), not something that you do. If they respect other people so much, why is that they have a homosexuality agenda abroad??

So those people appearing on the show are no different to others, anyone who attacks Islam, tries to say it needs to be modernised, can have financial incentives-well let other people waste their money, as seriously these people are not able to change Islam. They have already wasted money on anyone who is critical of Islam, and anyone who supports homosexuality etc. Again let these people waste their money and time, and let them talk to these idiots, its good that they spend so much time talking to each other, without really anyone else.

It appears that these people are just creating a problem about Islam, to say that we can't say any difference between people who believe in God and those that don't is just plain idiotic. They totally disregard that people don't want to talk about Islam, they don't want to know about Muslims, they want to get on with their own lives. Even people who become MPs, they don't become MPs because they want to vote to attack countries abroad, but about how things are in their own countries.

These people really are insulting the Muslims, are they saying that we haven't cared and helped non-Muslims in the UK?? The fact that people are unhappy about ie immigration, I think the majority need to answer ie-have they made best use of their free education in the UK?? The people are also poorer because they make lifestyle choices, which lead to being poorer, ie having different partners, and then starting afresh with someone else, rather then living with one person and having stability. There are cases were being single parents-this is a real tough situation to be in. I don't see that there are a lot of people who can blame other people for their situation, its rather that they are unhappy and they seek to go against other people.

Also here is another thing that the west likes to portray as being independent, happier etc, so why not? Why ie do you need to make bad cartoons?? I myself don't care if people become Muslims or not as its their choice. I think I rather spend my time on praying to God, helping other people which includes non-Muslims, and just getting by, life is to short to waste it by arguing. I have a pastime whether that'll be reading or playing games.

But here they are trying to tell us how to think, ie that we are not going to be religious anymore if you have such and such a thing in this world, its like people saying that why would you continue to be religious when you live in the west. Well the people in the desert became religious, it would have been easier for them to travel and find food and better amenities, but they strived religiously. They think like Satan, so if Satan gives you a mansion, would you forsake your religion and take it?? A lot of things that they do is like trying to show to the Muslims that we are the way, we Muslims never said that all the ugly and stupid people will be going to Hell and only the beautiful and intelligent people will be going to Paradise. There are people who have done excellent photography of places, amazing pictures of parts of the world that I wouldn't really be going to-does that mean that I am not going to say they should be helping themselves away from the fires of Hell?? No it does not. There are people who have made remarkable applications, games (don't mean violent but puzzles etc), but we Muslims would still treat them no differently to our own relations by saying you need to think of the hereafter, no matter what you do in the life of this world, you need to be successful in the hereafter. These are what homosexuals are doing by saying we have people who are good at writing etc, and now you hear of people saying I don't wish to say homosexuality is wrong, because this actor is one, so they are letting the sinful people dictate what they should believe. Just because you are good at painting etc doesn't mean we are going to accept your evil deeds. It is rather more fool for you on the Day of Judgement, that with all your intelligence that you did not strive to be successful in the hereafter.

People need to make best use of their education, if not going down that route, by helping other people, let other people who waste their time talking of jargon, and just ignore, them, so whilst you are trying to have a fulfilling life, they will see theirs as meaningless on the Day of Judgement.

Remember Allah and the Day of Judgement much.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

And another review

THE BATTLE FOR BRITISH ISLAM = PROPAGANDA FOR THE CTS BILL

I was quite disappointed when a blurred image of me featured in yesterday's episode of Panorama 'After Paris: The Battle for British Islam'.

The image was lifted from an event discussing the 'Criminalisation of Islam' at SOAS, where I clearly remember BBC's John Ware sitting in the front row. Perhaps he was taking notes on what he could use against the panellists, and chose not to include selective snippets of my lecture in his programme, like he did with Sheikh Haitham al Haddad, because it was based entirely on empirical findings.

In comparison, Ware's programme lacked any academic basis to substantiate his narrative. What should have been renamed as 'Paranoia: The Non-Existential Us and Them Fallacy', turned out to be an imbalanced perspective of the causes of terrorism, and the idea that non-violent extremism somehow leads to violence. The inclusion of academic and scholastic works to critically provide an alternative perspective was absent. In reality, the programme was divisive in nature, and equated to nothing more than propaganda for the government's proposed Counter-Terrorism and Security (CTS) bill.

Charlie Hebdo

There were references made to the murder of British soldier Lee Rigby in Woolwich 2013, as well as the recent killing of French magazine Charlie Hebdo journalists in Paris last week. However, Ware continued to amaze me for all the wrong reasons by totally dismissing, or rather conveniently ignoring, the link between foreign policy grievances and violent extremism. Nor did any of his 'distinguished' guests acknowledge Britain's military escapades in the Muslim world to incidents such as 7/7 and Woolwich.

The Algerian ethnicity of the perpetrators was another factor that was predictably brushed under the carpet. There was no reference to the origin of radicalisation of French Muslims, besides Ware's carefully crafted narrative of the conveyor-belt theory. For example, the role of France in massacring thousands of Muslims in Algeria between 1956-62, to backing a military coup between 1991-92, which sabotaged the democratic process, and inevitably led to the militarisation of young political Algerians.

'Expert' speakers

Ware's selection of guests was also embarrassingly poor in providing a nuanced commentary on this particular subject matter. But then again, that was expected when you invite self-professed specialists with hardly any grassroots support within mainstream Muslim communities. Furthermore, the journalistic principle of impartiality was non-existent, as the guests spoke with absolute freedom without being challenged - especially not by Ware!

Former jihadist, Manwar Ali of JIMAS who made a 180 degree turn when he went on a march with the EDL after Woolwich, didn't really provide anything of substance. Muslim Feminist, Sara Khan, parroted the same rhetoric as Ali. Similarly, Muslim modernist Adam Deen demonstrated how unimportant, and out of touch his perspective on extremism was - outright rejecting any link between foreign policy and radicalisation. Deen's repetitive reference to a "puritanical" version of Islam as the main cause of radicalisation and non-violent extremism, could not remotely counter the arguments presented by numerous counter-terrorism experts and academics who refuted this link.

Foreign policy and terrorism

Last Tuesday, I attended a report launch at the House of Commons hosted by think tank Claystone entitled, 'A Decade Lost: Rethinking Radicalisation and Extremism', authored by counter terrorism expert Professor Arun Kundnani. The ground breaking report packed the room with faith groups, academics, human rights organisations, policy makers, and journalists. The event was chaired by Yasmin Qureshi MP for Bolton, and Peter Oborne, the Daily Telegraph's chief political commentator was a guest panellist.

Professor Kundnani's report was published in light of the government's CTS bill, which many human rights groups believe could potentially be one of the most damaging legislation for the British Muslim community.

The proposed bill includes measures, which at the very least questions the basic civil liberties every citizen in the UK is entitled to. For example, teachers and child-minders will be expected to report toddlers to the police, universities will monitor Muslim students and speakers by censoring open dialogue on campus, the confiscation of passports, accessing personal mail, and the revoking of citizenship without due process, to name just a few.

Professor Kundnani mentioned in his overview that the UK government's counter terrorism Prevent strategy was specifically designed to target the Muslim community, whilst disregarding Britain's foreign policy as one of the main influences behind extremism and radicalisation. He also mentioned how prominent Muslim activists, charities, and schools were being targeted as the government's ideological definition of extremism was being indiscriminately applied.

From an academic perspective, Professor Kundnani stated how 'radical' views were not prerequisites to violent extremism. He highlighted that academics and think tanks that had previously advocated this theory had retracted their position as the War on Terror developed, and admitted that foreign policy was the main instigator behind terrorism.

Was this report that was authored by a revered non-Muslim academic even considered by Ware or his guests as a reference point or counter-narrative? Of course not, why should they? It's either 'Happy Muslim' or extreme Muslim. 'Poppy hijab' or no hijab. #NotInMyName or yes in your name. United against ISIS or united with ISIS. The 'us and them' clash of civilisation narrative was not initiated by Muslims. I recall George W Bush using that specific line before his illegal crusade in Iraq.

The political agenda pushed by journalists such as Ware, is nothing short of a divisive and destructive mechanism to socially facilitate the British public's support, or at least acceptance for a draconian legislation, such as the CTS bill by capitalising on people's fear of Muslims.

http://www.cageuk.org/article/huffin...ganda-cts-bill

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[Abz2000]

The documentary also advises that there is a group of Muslims who use the 'victim-hood' narrative to feed into the mentality of 'us & them' i.e. Muslims and the rest and this instills the mentality of jihad, war & hatred towards non-Muslims

Do they mean this type of victimhood?

]*To this end, Operation Northwoods proposals recommended hijackings and*bombingsfollowed by the introduction of phony evidence that would implicate the Cuban government.
It stated:
The desired resultant from the execution of this plan would be to place the United States in the apparent position of suffering defensible grievances from a rash and irresponsible government of Cuba and to develop an international image of a Cuban threat to peace in the Western Hemisphere.

In the summer of 2000, the*Project for the New American Century (PNAC), a neo-conservative think tank riddled with soon to be Bush administration officials and advisors, issued a document calling for the radical restructuring of U.S. government and military policies.

It advocated the massive expansion of defense spending, the re-invasion of Iraq, the military and economic securing of Afghanistan and Central Asia, increased centralized power and funds for the CIA, FBI, and NSA, among a slew of other policies that would, in the near future, be enacted upon their ascension to power.

In the same document, they cite a potential problem with their plan.

Referring to the goals of transforming the U.S. and global power structure, the paper states that because of the American Public's slant toward ideas of democracy and freedom,

"this process of transformation is likely to be a long one, absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event - like a new Pearl Harbor."


PNAC members, and signees to its policy documents, include:
Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wofowitz, Jeb Bush, Richard Perle, John Bolton, Scooter Libby, Elliot Abrams, Richard Armitage, William Bennet, William Kristol, and Zalmy Khalilzad - men with their hands deep in the private defense, oil, and multi-national corporate industries poised to make vast sums of money and secure huge tracts of power and influence if PNAC policy evolved into U.S. Government policy.

Nine months after they rose to power, and assumed central positions of leadership up and down the spectrum of military, civilian, domestic, and international agencies, they got their 'New Pearl Harbor'.
And PNAC policy essentially evolved into the Bush Administration's official agenda.
While this alarmingly convenient coincidence does not prove anything in and of itself, it does establish motive.
And it certainly would raise the eyebrows of concern from any serious investigator looking into the facts of September 11.

Problem is that one position of "victimhood" is real, and another is manufactured and plastic.

here's a video i put together about this a few years ago:

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another review

BBC's Panorama programme plumbs new depths in its attack on Muslims

Not for the first time, the BBC's Panorama has been an outrider for the Islamophobia that is now so ingrained in the British establishment.

Last night's Panorama on Islamic extremism in Britain, brought forward to take advantage of the furore generated by the terrible events in Paris, was weak and deeply irresponsible, even by the programme's own dubious standards.

While many are trying to insist on the limited and exceptional nature of violent extremism, reporter John Ware was doing precisely the opposite - claiming that a growing strain of 'non-violent Islamic extremism' was closely connected to terrorism and therefore encouraging precisely the kind of wider 'blame the Muslims' game that most people with any sense of responsibility or humanity want to avoid at all costs.

Ware had little actual evidence to support his claims, just a montage of decontextualised video clips and the opinion of a few barely known 'experts', some of whom appeared to need prompting to support his analysis.

Oh yes and one or two soundbites from David Cameron and Theresa May.

The main thrust of his opening argument was that 'puritanical' strains of Islam -- in other words Muslims that didn't like having fun - was leading directly to Jihadi violence. I kid you not.

After fifteen minutes or so, perhaps, to be generous, sensing the tenuousness of his argument, Ware changed tack. His second claim was that it was actually a 'sense of victimhood' - apparently propagated largely by Islamic media - that leads people to violent jihad.

Ware's obedient interviewees twisted and turned with him and endorsed this second 'theory', complaining about how many Muslims had the nerve to feel as if that they were discriminated against and were getting a raw deal, despite the obvious fact that they are all doing so well in an equal, fair and free society. They agreed too that such a sense of grievance was extremely dangerous.

Now, social and political context has been missing from much of the discussion around recent tragic events. But to discuss a 'sense of grievance' as a problem without even a cursory consideration of whether the grievances might be real takes condescension to new levels.

The programme didn't pause for a beat to consider whether the well documented levels of police harrasment against Muslims, clear economic marginalisation, or British participation in a series of invasions of Muslim countries might have fuelled this sense of grievance.

Or, heaven forbid, that these things might actually have contributed to the huge and worrying increase in terrorist attacks in the last decade and more. That would have introduced some balance, and some sanity, into the proceedings.

Ware's case was feeble and his lack of basic journalistic rigour and sensitivity on these issues is hardly a secret after his widely condemned attempt at a hatchet job on Lutfur Rahman's popular administration in the local London borough of Tower Hamlets.

In one sense it is tempting to dismiss the programme as an aberration.

But on these issues Panorama has regularly been an outrider for the official cavalcade. Islamophobia is now so ingrained in the British establishment, and the desire to avoid a serious discussion about the impact of the war on terror or discrimination runs so deep, that John Ware's approach may well be mainstreaming in the near future.

http://www.stopwar.org.uk/news/why-we-should-be-worried-as-bbc-s-panorama-plumbs-new-depths-in-its-attacks-on-muslims

[BeTheChange]

Insha Allah what they trying to achieve will back-fire in their faces and the average person will seen the truth Ameen. May Allah swa help us all make wise decisions that please Him alone Ameen.

[Abz2000]

David Cameron has defended a letter urging senior Muslims to explain how Islam "can be part of British identity", amid criticism from leaders.

http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-30877447

Dear Mr Cameron,
Thank you for your query,
Hopefully you sincerely want to know and are asking because you want peace.
The best way to make Islam part of British identity is by handing each and every citizen a copy of the Quran with a translation in English and other languages if possible, I would recommend Yusuf Ali or Marmaduke Picktall.
The next stage would be to abolish the system of usury which is draining the funds of the public to the extent of enslaving them to bankers.
Offer the bankers an ultimatum where they can have their capital sums if they repent and give up their demand for usury.
Establish regular prayer and zakat.
Spread the peace, and establish the laws of God as legislated in the Quran and Sunnah of His final Messenger Muhammad may peace be upon him.
Jesus will support you too.
And pray for guidance.
Or you could sanctify a fast like the people of Jonah and repent and beg God for forgiveness and guidance.
The king of nineveh was a wise man who saved his people from the wrath of God which was hovering over them.
I too will join you in such a fast.
Know that God is oft returning, forgiving and merciful - and that His wrath is something for oppressors and wrongdoers to take heed of and guard themselves from.
My advice to you is sincere.
Please think of the people and yourself too.
If you reject God, then know that He has no need of you and that you cannot harm him in the least.He is pleased with those who are grateful.
Yours sincerely,
Abz

P.S. Time is of the essence.

[Pygoscelis]

Islam is either compatible with western democracy, or it isn't. If it is, then great. Welcome to the team. Nice dance video lol. If it isn't, then why come here? This isn't a discussion demanding nude beaches in Saudi Arabia. Different societies, different rules. Either be compatible with our rules, or don't come here. Simple really.

[Scimitar]

come where? :D

we already are everywhere bud... and breeding.

You sure you have recognised the "problem" effectively?

I don't even see a problem :D

I just see media trolls vying for cookie points with the charlie hebdo malarky.

Scimi

[Pygoscelis]

So Scimi, how do you suggest we respond to posts and voices such as Abz above, who want to push us and change our culture to suit them? Perhaps even by force? France is quite socially liberal. Nude beaches are common. Men kiss each other on the cheek as a greeting. Wine is part of the national identity. The French are not going to change all that just because some muslims want them to. What would you suggest the French say to Abz here and those like him? If they are not content to live and let live, what do we do?

[Scimitar]

So Scimi, how do you suggest we respond to posts and voices such as Abz above, who want to push us and change our culture to suit them? Perhaps even by force?

I've actually met bro Abz a few years back, when he was living in London. He's a lovely lad, he moved from the UK because life here didn't suit him - best move for him I believe.

Pygo, you believe that bro Abz is "extreme" in his views, but let's examine that subjective argument here.

1) Abz recommends that each citizen of the Uk be given a Quran, so they can know for themselves what the book teaches - this is a great idea in my opinion, as knowledge kills ignorance - and we do live in a rather ignorant world.

2)Abz advocates for the abolishment of usury and this is a command in Islam - to abolish usury. To explain his point, I refer you to the BBC documentary "The Super Rich and Us"



Point is, you don't have to be Muslim to know that Usury is a type of oppression and tyrannical in nature, it creates a rich poor divide and the British are sick of it.

Abz solution is for all Brits, not just Muslims - if this solution sees the light of day, I believe the Brits will be happy, nay, ecstatic about it. 1% of Brits own 99% of the wealth in this country, this is something very worrying, and the tax scams and brown paper envelope days are still fresh in everyone's memory here in the UK, not just the memory of Muslims... if anything i think his idea is fatastic.

As a member of truther forums all over the web, i can assure you that non Muslims on the truth movement all feel the same way Abz does regarding the rich poor divide and would welcome a solution which sees the end of it - some have even concluded that to abolish the current banking system is the only way to go.

Not sure if you are savvy on this, but the west can only sustain it's economy by going to war and leeching the resources of the countries they invade - this is a well known fact and is dubbed "war economy"... Muslims know this, and so do non Muslims - because it's a fact no one can deny.

Heck, let's not forget that Julian Assange leaked everything and the truther forums have that dirt.

3) Abz says "establish regular prayer and salaat (worship)" - in our Islamic teachings, we know that "Allah does not change the condition of a people, until they change what is within themselves first" - the best way to change something within oneself in islam is through sincerity of action and reflection, and there is no better opportunity to do this than to engage in worship at the required times. This is a fair premise on his part.

4) Abz wrote:

Spread the peace, and establish the laws of God as legislated in the Quran and Sunnah of His final Messenger Muhammad may peace be upon him.
Jesus will support you too.
And pray for guidance.
Or you could sanctify a fast like the people of Jonah and repent and beg God for forgiveness and guidance.
The king of nineveh was a wise man who saved his people from the wrath of God which was hovering over them.
I too will join you in such a fast.
Know that God is oft returning, forgiving and merciful - and that His wrath is something for oppressors and wrongdoers to take heed of and guard themselves from.
My advice to you is sincere.
Please think of the people and yourself too.
If you reject God, then know that He has no need of you and that you cannot harm him in the least.He is pleased with those who are grateful.
Yours sincerely,
Abz

This is great, if one cannot establish the shariah in foreign lands - that's ok, instead, invite to good actions, and deeds, spread the peace - sound amicable? of course it does bro Pygo - you are reading ery negatively into the words of Bro Abz.

France is quite socially liberal. Nude beaches are common. Men kiss each other on the cheek as a greeting. Wine is part of the national identity. The French are not going to change all that just because some muslims want them to. What would you suggest the French say to Abz here and those like him? If they are not content to live and let live, what do we do?

So is England... what is your point?

In any country one goes to, you will find "communities", this is just how humanity works - I see a bit of a double edged sword in the preaching of the liberal west.

In one breath it wants people to mingle with each other, and in another, it supports communities - but people who mingle, with their own people are somehow backwards? how does that work out for a liberal minded atheist gay person if he refuses to mingle with Christians? isn't that a bit of a hypocrisy? His standard argument is "Christians God hates gays so Christians won't like me" - is a valid argument... but not the absolute truth is it?

People are nuanced bro Pygo, each living his or her own life in their bubble, trying to make sense of this crazy crazy world we are living in.

Sometimes brothers like Abz seem strange to folk, but to me, they are kin... blessed be the strangers, is what I say.

I hope I have answered your questions.

On a side note. I was in Oldham between the 5th and the 9th of december, yep, the place where the Oldham riots took place. I was in a very heavy Pakistani populated area and in the midst of it, was a Church... it was spotless, not a speck of vandalism on it, wanna know why? because Muslims respect people of other faiths, especially the Abrahamic ones... yet the Mosques in that area had racist graffiti on them done by white guys... seeing this, made me sad because I can see exactly how this war against Islam is affecting the minds of the average Joe Public.

yet, whilst I was in Oldham, I saw a sense of community between the Muslims the likes of which I didn't see with the white folk... if anything, I argue that if any people in the Uk need to feel a real sense of community, it would have to be the white folk themselves, simply because they stand more divided than any other people in the UK... and it is this division amongst their own ranks which makes them feel threatened. Henceforth, we see that reflected in groups such as the infamous EDL...

...you remember the EDL don't you? of course you do. They are still going strong.

Remember Tommy Robinson? the ex EDL leader who gave the organisation the reputation it had earnt?

Well, he spent a few weeks with a Muslim after he was challenged and he took it up. You know what happened after those two weeks? He regretted ever making the EDL what it was, he admitted he was wrong, and he left the EDL... just two weeks with a Muslim family, meeting Muslims, etc - changed his whole outlook on his world view... his bubble changed... imagine that?

Problem i see today is, despite the western media and govt claiming that integration is necessary for British Muslims, they don't say the same thing to the non Muslims... that is a very acute observation which often gets overlooked, even here on IB.

The hypocrisy of western idealism is in its inability to swallow its own propagations... all it does is spit it in the direction of Muslims, thinking they are doing us some kind of favour... that's really not the reality.

Scimi

[Pygoscelis]

I've actually met bro Abz a few years back, when he was living in London. He's a lovely lad, he moved from the UK because life here didn't suit him - best move for him I believe.

Sounds like that would be for the best, yes.

Pygo, you believe that bro Abz is "extreme" in his views, but let's examine that subjective argument here.

I don't know Abz well enough to know if he is extreme or not. I have seen him write that he expects us all to follow the directives of his God. We won't. I have seen him write that he endorses the death penalty for apostates. I do recall a thread a while ago in which somebody, I think it was him but I am not certain, actually went so far as to advocate for the hunting down and killing of homosexuals. In reaction to this charlie hebdo massacre, he doesn't seem to see anything wrong with what happened if it was indeed Muslims that did it. Somebody draws some nasty cartoons about Mohammed, they get murdered for it, and if you scroll up you'll see him saying they got what they deserve. So yes, he appears to be extreme. But again, I don't know him. So maybe this is mostly hyperbole on his part and he isn't what I imagine him to be.

1) Abz recommends that each citizen of the Uk be given a Quran, so they can know for themselves what the book teaches - this is a great idea in my opinion, as knowledge kills ignorance - and we do live in a rather ignorant world.

I really wouldn't recommend that. Just as I wouldn't recommend giving a copy of the Bible (especially the old testament) to people who are concerned about Christians. These books are surprisingly violent and intolerant, especially when read without any context or explanation. The books don't matter anyway, from the non-believers perspective. What matters is what the believers actually believe and how they are prone to act on it. That may or may not match the text in their holy book.

2)Abz advocates for the abolishment of usury and this is a command in Islam - to abolish usury. To explain his point, I refer you to the BBC documentary "The Super Rich and Us"

This I can agree with.

3) Abz says "establish regular prayer and salaat (worship)" - in our Islamic teachings, we know that "Allah does not change the condition of a people, until they change what is within themselves first" - the best way to change something within oneself in islam is through sincerity of action and reflection, and there is no better opportunity to do this than to engage in worship at the required times. This is a fair premise on his part.

I read what he wrote there as "Everybody needs to pray and worship as I do". Establish regular prayer? Forget it. That is a horrible idea. If you want to pray, do it on your own time your own way and don't push it on anybody. If you want to be tolerated, then tolerate others. Freedom of religion requires freedom from the other guy's religion.

In one breath it wants people to mingle with each other, and in another, it supports communities - but people who mingle, with their own people are somehow backwards? how does that work out for a liberal minded atheist gay person if he refuses to mingle with Christians? isn't that a bit of a hypocrisy? His standard argument is "Christians God hates gays so Christians won't like me" - is a valid argument... but not the absolute truth is it?

I know a lot of liberal minded gay atheists. I don't know any that refuse to mingle with Christians. I know some liberal minded gay Christians too. There are some intolerant conservative Christians who hate on gays (Fred phelps is not an anomaly), but the furthest they seem to go is booing at gay pride parades and picketing funerals and blaming gays for natural disasters. Nutters yes, but I don't remember them suggesting we actually hunt down and murder homosexuals.

On a side note. I was in Oldham between the 5th and the 9th of december, yep, the place where the Oldham riots took place. I was in a very heavy Pakistani populated area and in the midst of it, was a Church... it was spotless, not a speck of vandalism on it, wanna know why? because Muslims respect people of other faiths, especially the Abrahamic ones... yet the Mosques in that area had racist graffiti on them done by white guys... seeing this, made me sad because I can see exactly how this war against Islam is affecting the minds of the average Joe Public.

It is a mix. You have an outsider strange "other" group, the muslims, and that is a lighting rod for irrational and unfair bigotry against them. Islamophobia isn't pretty. It isn't just muslims though. You can see that tribalism against many outgroups, including homosexuals, atheists, communists, jews, blacks, etc. Then added to that you have this particular group having a subgroup within it that is more violent, intolerant, and hateful than pretty much any other group. That cycles around and "justifies" the already existing mistrust and hate against Muslims as a whole. The cycle spins around and around until you get ridiculous things like bans on minarets and veils. Don't be surprised if this charlie hebdo thing is used as a basis for further prejudice against Muslims, false flag or not.

The only way to break the cycle is to show that Islam is actually tolerant, compatible with the west, and even friendly. The violent ultraconservative hate filled muslim stereotype needs to be broken. That silly video of happy muslims, the writer turned muslim who said (and I paraphrase) "They are not mocking the actual Mohammed. They are being stupid. And they can draw their cartoons", the Muslims who very quickly and in large numbers expressed their horror at what the attackers did, etc, all go a long way. So does integrating into society, working with, befriending, etc. I know you have rules against inter-faith marriage, but I would recommend pretty much everything short of that. Keeping to yourselves and being beligerant to others is not the way.

It isn't fair to expect muslims to be friendlier and behave better than others, just because they share a religion with some nutters, but that seems to be the only way out. There is a Halal Schwarma place down the street form me run by a very nice Muslim family. They are so warm, inviting, and downright charming and accepting of outsiders, that it would be nearly impossible to go there, meet them, and walk away an islamophobe, no matter how much you lean in that direction beforehand. Its where I take people I meet who hate muslims. :)

[Pygoscelis]

here's a video i put together about this a few years ago:

I agree with nearly this entire video. And I can see how a lot of the violent Muslim terrorism is blowback. I can almost understand (but not excuse) 9/11 and events like it. I can understand why Palestinians fire rockets and do suicide attacks against Israel. I could totally see how this would connect to attacks on Bush and Blair themselves. I wonder why they haven't been targets of assassins. But I don't see how any of it relates to Charlie Hebdo, Salman Rushdie, Theo Van Goh, etc. That looks entirely different to me.

I do find it ironic that while ideologically I am the opposite of Abz, we seem to share a lot of the same views against corruption in politics. There seems to be a strange alliance to be made between liberal atheists (think John Stewart's Daily Show, or The Young Turks, etc) and Muslims.

[Scimitar]

I'd like to meet with you in person, and go or that shwarma - but you is in Canada my brother :D

i've met so many people now irl from these forums I inhabit. I don't even know how many. On WUP I said 10, but I know the real figure is higher...

I don't know Abz well enough to know if he is extreme or not. I have seen him write that he expects us all to follow the directives of his God. We won't. I have seen him write that he endorses the death penalty for apostates. I do recall a thread a while ago in which somebody, I think it was him but I am not certain, actually went so far as to advocate for the hunting down and killing of homosexuals. In reaction to this charlie hebdo massacre, he doesn't seem to see anything wrong with what happened if it was indeed Muslims that did it. Somebody draws some nasty cartoons about Mohammed, they get murdered for it, and if you scroll up you'll see him saying they got what they deserve. So yes, he appears to be extreme. But again, I don't know him. So maybe this is mostly hyperbole on his part and he isn't what I imagine him to be.

Who knows what is in another heart eh? it's not like we can cut them up to see what is inside. People often say one thing and mean it, but mean it differently to how another perceives their intention.

For example, Abz is more than aware that "there is no compulsion in religion" so when he says that we must all pray etc - he is actually referring simply to just Muslims... not other groups.

As for peaceful co-existence... well, I seem to recall that Abz is all for that. We had a great discussion when we met years back, and he is a peaceful man, with peaceful eyes...

I really wouldn't recommend that. Just as I wouldn't recommend giving a copy of the Bible (especially the old testament) to people who are concerned about Christians. These books are surprisingly violent and intolerant, especially when read without any context or explanation. The books don't matter anyway, from the non-believers perspective. What matters is what the believers actually believe and how they are prone to act on it. That may or may not match the text in their holy book.

A book is a gift of knowledge, if one abuses that knowledge, that is their call. But if one uses it to better his nature, his life, his morality etc etc etc - then that can only be a good thing.

Despite your recommendation not to dish out Qurans, I want to cite you an example.

Remember that pastor who held the Burn a Quran day? well the whole incident went viral on the news networks etc, and his town was the paparazzi hot room for the week... that week, many Americans got themselves a copy of the Quran, to burn it... but before they did, some of them actually read it... now here's the thing, in that Pastors home town, more than 30 non Muslims became Muslims after reading it... that's more than the pastors entire church congregation.

I guess God works in mysterious ways eh?

what you gotta remember here is, that even without context - as long as someone reads the Quran cover to cover, generally, they understand it's a good book from a divine source - a valuable item which should be studied after read, it piques the curiosity of the reader, and the more they read, the more they take away from it. It's not the type of book which can be read once and then shelved, no... it's structure itself defines the layered understandings which come with time, if one invests that time into the study of it.

As far as I am concerned, to even call it a book, is not good enough, it is the guidance... and those who seek perversity will only pervert themselves, and those who seek the goodness and purity from it will purify themselves.

I read what he wrote there as "Everybody needs to pray and worship as I do". Establish regular prayer? Forget it. That is a horrible idea. If you want to pray, do it on your own time your own way and don't push it on anybody. If you want to be tolerated, then tolerate others. Freedom of religion requires freedom from the other guy's religion.

As I mentioned earlier, he was referring to Muslims because I happen to know that Abz knows the ayaat "there is no compulsion in religion". So you got nothing to worry about bro Pygo.

I know a lot of liberal minded gay atheists. I don't know any that refuse to mingle with Christians. I know some liberal minded gay Christians too. There are some intolerant conservative Christians who hate on gays (Fred phelps is not an anomaly), but the furthest they seem to go is booing at gay pride parades and picketing funerals and blaming gays for natural disasters. Nutters yes, but I don't remember them suggesting we actually hunt down and murder homosexuals.

I know a lot of homosexuals, grew up with many - had no idea some of them were even gay, until the shock of it hit me - namely because I shoulda guessed by their tell tale signs... but here's me trying not to judge eh? :)

Living in London, I have no choice but to interact with all types of people, and being in the business that i am, I do meet al types, it's interesting.

It is a mix. You have an outsider strange "other" group, the muslims, and that is a lighting rod for irrational and unfair bigotry.

Excuse me, but you need to justify that statement. 99.9999999% of Muslims I know, are not bigots, irrational or otherwise. We're Doctors, Physicians, Accountants, Business men, Train and bus drivers, developers, builders, merchants, kebab shop owners etc - we are part and parcel of the framework of society and we are just regular people who mind our own business.

It is the govt and its media which constantly put us under a spotlight and accuse us of this that and the other all because that 0.0000001% of our faith group, went and done a bad.

Heck, when the tables are turned though, and we put the west under the spotlight, **** there are a lot of questions which need answering.

So if you really want to call any group irrational or bigots, those terms would be better suited to the imperialist powers that be.

now for your disclaimer:

It isn't just muslims. You can see that tribalism against many outsiders. Then added to that you have this particular group having a subgroup within it that is more violent, intolerant, and hateful than pretty much any other group. That cycles around and "justifies" the already existing mistrust and hate against Muslims as a whole. The cycle spins around and around until you get ridiculous things like bans on minarets and veils. Don't be surprised if this charlie hebdo thing is used as a basis for further prejudice against Muslims, false flag or not.

let me ask you, do you believe the charlie hebdo shootings were done by Muslims in the name of Islam?

or do you believe that these shooting were done by maniacs trained by professionals in order to paint another bad for the Muslims???

before you answer, I'd like you to consider that every single respected and prominent shaikh has spoken up against the murder of innocents, and advised Muslims to stay in their homes and be patient despite the media trying to cajole them into a frenzy... this has been propagated since 2001 - and the majority of us, understand that these cartoons and other crap are just nonsensical ploys to create violence so the west can further use these events as an excuse to invade yet more lands and take more resources, kill more Muslims etc etc etc (i'm tired)

The only way to break the cycle is to show that Islam is actually tolerant, compatible with the west, and even friendly. The violent ultraconservative hate filled muslim stereotype needs to be broken. That silly video of happy muslims, the writer turned muslim who said (and I paraphrase) "They are not mocking the actual Mohammed. They are being stupid. And they can draw their cartoons", the Muslims who very quickly and in large numbers expressed their horror at what the attackers did, etc, all go a long way. So does integrating into society, working with, befriending, etc. I know you have rules against inter-faith marriage, but I would recommend pretty much everything short of that. Keeping to yourselves and being beligerant to others is not the way.

look around you bro Pygo, we're all like that. None of us condone violence. Islam is the way of peace - we never forget that... those who do, do so because they were never knew that in the first place - not real Muslims... it's clear as day to us.

I mean, how many times have Muslims been blamed for something the west concocted? IE: from 911 to blackwater, you name it - so many westerners were caught posing as Muslims via independent investigations that this whole "media war on Islam" is the longest running media joke I have witnessed in my lifetime...

It isn't fair to expect muslims to be friendlier and behave better than others, just because they share a religion with some nutters, but that seems to be the only way out. There is a Halal Schwarma place down the street form me run by a very nice Muslim family. They are so warm, inviting, and downright charming and accepting of outsiders, that it would be nearly impossible to go there, meet them, and walk away an islamophobe, no matter how much you lean in that direction beforehand. Its where I take people I meet who hate muslims. :)

You're completely correct, it's not fair, but hey - as Muslims, we don't complain - we will take account with Allah in the day of judgement :)

Scimi

[Pygoscelis]

I'd like to meet with you in person, and go or that shwarma - but you is in Canada my brother :D

From everything you have written, you sound like somebody I would like to meet, and would enjoy calling friend.

what you gotta remember here is, that even without context - as long as someone reads the Quran cover to cover, generally, they understand it's a good book from a divine source - a valuable item which should be studied after read, it piques the curiosity of the reader, and the more they read, the more they take away from it. It's not the type of book which can be read once and then shelved, no... it's structure itself defines the layered understandings which come with time, if one invests that time into the study of it.

Some may read the Quran and become Muslim, sure. After 9/11 I know some people who looked into and became Muslims then as well. Any time Islam is made high profile and in the news, some people are going to look into it, and some of them are going to like what they see. That isn't all that happens though. There are also many who will look into it and become more and more hateful towards Muslims. I remember watching some people go that way and trying to pull them back to the rational. That's where that shwarma shop I spoke of comes in :) My own experience is of course far more with Christians than Muslims, and I can tell you that one of the best ways to create an anti-religious atheist is to get a Christian to read the bible for themselves. Without somebody to explain away the nasty parts, they... look nasty.

Excuse me, but you need to justify that statement. 99.9999999% of Muslims I know, are not bigots, irrational or otherwise. We're Doctors, Physicians, Accountants, Business men, Train and bus drivers, developers, builders, merchants, kebab shop owners etc - we are part and parcel of the framework of society and we are just regular people who mind our own business.

I went back and edited my post, to be more clear. I did not mean the Muslims were the intolerant bigots (though some are). I meant that Muslims are the target of intolerant bigots. A lot of out-groups are. It is that Us vs Them mentality being talked about in the OP's video. It is basic tribalism. It is the flipside of empathy, and one of the worst parts of human nature.

let me ask you, do you believe the charlie hebdo shootings were done by Muslims in the name of Islam?

I don't know for certain, but I tend to think so, yes. I am not a truther like yourself. I may take such conspiracy theories a bit more seriously if we didn't have so many Muslims like Abz here saying the cartoonists got what they had coming. Reactions like that make it totally believable to me that Muslims did this in the name of Islam. Same with Theo Van Goh and the attempts to murder Salman Rushdie. You have some people out there saying they endorse the killing of people who insult the prophet. That makes it pretty believable to me that some people will actually do that.

I'd like you to consider that every single respected and prominent shaikh has spoken up against the murder of innocents, and advised Muslims to stay in their homes and be patient despite the media trying to cajole them into a frenzy...

I see a lot more of that this time around, and it is great to see. As I said before, I understand that the average Muslim is not in the camp of those who would do something like the massacre at Charlie Hebdo, but I do believe, as the video says, there is a dangerous and growing subset that is in that camp.

None of us condone violence.

I have seen otherwise on this very forum.

Islam is the way of peace - we never forget that... those who do, do so because they were never knew that in the first place - not real Muslims... it's clear as day to us.

I wish all who called themselves Muslims thought as you do. I wish for your voice to be heard far and wide.

You're completely correct, it's not fair, but hey - as Muslims, we don't complain - we will take account with Allah in the day of judgement :)

I like that upbeat attitude :)

[سيف الله]

Salaam

David Cameron has defended a letter urging senior Muslims to explain how Islam "can be part of British identity", amid criticism from leaders.

http://m.bbc.com/news/uk-30877447

This is very disturbing. The British government is attempting to dictate what it means to be a Muslim. The British State is an idol that must be worshipped, whether we want to or not.

Cameron backs Pickles’ letter to Muslim leaders
Prime minister says it is right to call on Muslims to help deal with radicalisation, but Islamic leaders object to being singled out

David Cameron has said it was right for Eric Pickles to write a letter to Muslim leaders in which he asked them to “explain and demonstrate how faith in Islam can be part of British identity”.

In a letter sent to more than 1,000 Islamic leaders (pdf), Pickles stressed that he was proud of the way Muslims in Britain had responded to the Paris terror attacks, but said there was more work to do in rooting out extremists and preventing young people from being radicalised.

In the letter, co-signed by the Muslim peer and communities minister Lord Ahmad, Pickles said radicalism “cannot be solved from Whitehall alone” and stressed that everyone had a responsibility to fight extremism.

The Muslim Council of Britain (MCB) raised objections to their community being singled out. But Cameron said the letter clearly showed that Pickles was saying “British Muslims make a great contribution to our country and that what is happening in relation to extremist terror has nothing to do with the true religion of Islam and is being perverted by a minority that is being radicalised”.

“Everyone needs to help with dealing with this problem of radicalisation and anyone frankly reading this letter and who has a problem with it, I think really has a problem. I think it is the most reasonable, sensible, moderate letter that Eric could possibly have written.

“All of us have a responsibility to try and confront this radicalisation, and make sure we stop young people being drawn into this poisonous, fanatical death cult that a very small minority of people have created.”

In the letter Pickles wrote: “You, as faith leaders, are in a unique position in our society. You have a precious opportunity, and an important responsibility, in explaining and demonstrating how faith in Islam can be part of British identity.”

Harun Khan, deputy secretary general of the MCB, said: “Is Mr Pickles seriously suggesting, as do members of the far right, that Muslims and Islam are inherently apart from British society?”

He said he was writing back to Pickles to demand an explanation for the apparent assumptions made.

The letter continued: “We believe together we have an opportunity to demonstrate the true nature of British Islam today. There is a need to lay out more clearly than ever before what being a British Muslim means today: proud of your faith and proud of your country. We know that acts of extremism are not representative of Islam, but we need to show what is.

“We must show our young people, who may be targeted, that extremists have nothing to offer them. We must show them that there are other ways to express disagreement, that their right to do so is dependent on the very freedoms that extremists seek to destroy.

“We must show them the multitude of statements of condemnation from British Muslims, show them these men of hate have no place in our mosques or any place of worship, and that they do not speak for Muslims in Britain or anywhere in the world.

“Let us assure you that the government will do all we can to defeat the voices of division, but ultimately the challenges of integration and radicalisation cannot be solved from Whitehall alone. Strong community-based leadership at a local level is needed.”

The letter said: “British values are Muslim values”, and the country would be diminished without Islam and its “message of peace and unity”.

“Every day, mosques and other faith institutions across the country are providing help for those in need, and acting as a centre for our communities. It is these positive contributions that are the true messages of faith and it is these contributions that need to be promoted.”

Ahmad said the MCB’s response was disappointing, adding that perhaps Khan was not clear about what the letter said.

“The letter could not have been more explicit” that the government regarded Muslims as part of British society, Ahmad said, adding it was designed to reassure the Muslim community. He insisted the best way to deal with the language of hate was education and a coming together.

“This was about reassurance, it was about recognising, as [the home secretary] Theresa May said only yesterday, that a Britain without Muslims, a Britain without Jews, Hindus, would not be the Britain we want to see,” he said on BBC Radio 4’s Today programme on Monday.

Lord Sacks, the former chief rabbi, said he could understand the reason Muslim leaders might be asking why the government was putting the blame on the community when radicalised Islam was a global phenomenon transmitted by the internet and social media.

He said he was sure the letter was well intentioned, but it “suggested the Muslim community within Britain contained its own radicals, and the truth is that Islamism, like all modern global political movements, is actually a global phenomenon transmitted by the internet and transmitted by social media, so I would be surprised if the Muslim community did not say: ‘You are asking of us something that is not actually under our control.’”

But he said he did not believe the Muslim community had done enough to ensure the teaching in its schools and mosques emphasised the need to integrate with British society in the same way as the Jewish community had in the 19th century.

Explaining how much had been done to integrate Jewish society in the UK through teaching in seminaries, he said: “I don’t think that has been done with other ethnic minority communities. Radicalised imams have in the past been preaching a message of hate.”

He admitted that the fear of attacks in the Jewish community was “at an all-time high so far as my lifetime is concerned. At the same time the most recent survey shows the overwhelming number of Jews here feel safe and Britain remains one of the most tolerant societies on Earth.”

He insisted the Jewish community was well prepared and things were under control.

News of the letter emerged as the Metropolitan police announced that it had increased security around its buildings and bolstered the number of firearms officers available.

May also promised to increase the government’s efforts to tackle the terrorist threat and a “chilling” rise in antisemitism.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/david-cameron-backs-eric-pickles-letter-muslim-leaders

[InToTheRain]

Is Islam compatible with British Values? We need to first make clear "What Are British Values?!?". Is someone speaking against the Ill-practices within Britain going against British values or enforcing it :)

[ardianto]

Singapore is known as "an overseas Chinese country" because Chinese are dominant there. But when I visited Singapore I saw Malay people, I saw Indian people. They live in Malayan culture and Indian culture, not Chinese culture. Those Malays and Indians embrace their ancestor religions. But those Malays and Indians are part of Singaporean society, together with Singaporean Chinese.

So I wonder why the questions "can Muslim be part of British people?" and "can Islam be part of British identity?" become confusing questions. "Be part" doesn't mean it's should be melted and lost its origin, but it's mean "together in harmony", just like Malays, Indians, and Chineses in Singapore. Just like Islam Islam, Hindu, Buddhism, Confucian, and other religions in Singapore.

Yes, I've never visited UK. But I often visit British websites only to know what's the native British people think about Muslims. From what I've noticed, they do not expect Muslims remove their ethnic culture, they do not expect Muslims to leave Islam. What they expect is, Muslims can tolerate other culture, other religion, and live in harmony with the other.

Okay, maybe I am wrong because I am not living in UK. But that's what I've noticed from what native British write about Muslims in UK.

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Hmmmm this is a little naive brother. I think it depends, everyday people you meet there is a general level of tolerance, but I think the governing elites, (culture, media etc) there's always been a level of ambivalence to put it mildly. Whats important now is that there has been a shift in the political landscape, these elites has decided to launch a sustained propaganda (culture war if you will) campaign to 'convert' Muslims to accept secular liberal ideology.

Heres some links for background info.

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/134323190-birmingham-school-governor-denies-%E2%80%98trojan-horse%E2%80%99-plot-claims.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/world-affairs/134324139-syria-gaza-criminalisation-islam.html

Christianity in the UK went through the same process over the decades, no wonder its fading away.

[Abz2000]

So Scimi, how do you suggest we respond to posts and voices such as Abz above, who want to push us and change our culture to suit them? Perhaps even by force? France is quite socially liberal. Nude beaches are common. Men kiss each other on the cheek as a greeting. Wine is part of the national identity. The French are not going to change all that just because some muslims want them to. What would you suggest the French say to Abz here and those like him? If they are not content to live and let live, what do we do?

The response itself indicates the motive lol - especially seeing that i explained that i don't own Islam.
God has decreed it just as He decreed how the sun, planets and moon revolve. i am a slave of the Creator just like all other beings that exist.

It's like a user manual instructing how planet earth most successfully works, he didn't bother you much until you began colonizing and then abusing and commiting grave injustices against the populations and the prayers started going up.
Please think carefully and understand that my purpose is not to kill you and send you to hell, nor is it to prioritize earth over paradise.
I prefer a good life on earth and in eternity, and am offering you the way to find that lifeline too.
And please be very careful when saying "we won't submit to God" as if speaking for all Canadians, British, Americans and French - or God knows who else. use the "phone a friend" lifeline and ask them what they think after they've understood it.

Let the people read the Quran and make their decision, that way you won't be responsible for how their Creator judges them - nor will you be responsible for misleading or depriving them.

I believe that it is not possible to force someone to believe something they don't or disbelieve something they do. It would be an Orwellian idea of the term belief.
I do however believe that it is possible and urgently necessary to make people submit to the Laws of the Creator of all that exists in the universe as enshrined in the final and universal legislation - the Quran and Sunnah, in the social context.
Sulaiman pbuh did such a thing successfully though it is less mentioned by the eager to please people above God scholars of our time.
That way people dress modestly and decently in front of children, and conduct themselves in a respectable manner on public transport, nor do they exploit via usury etc amongs a multitude of other benefits.

I tried hard for the "to each his own" option but it became apparent that some mischief makers just didn't want Muslims to have a peaceful state where Islam is practiced in it's entirety without let or hinder.
If they were so eager, they could have taken the Yazeedis and stuff in.
But maybe it's God's desire to guide us all since we're at a global stage in history.

My job is to learn and inform you that time is short, that God has already prepared the dock - and that He does not the least bit of injustice. to His servants.

Let us find success and fulfillment in this life and in eternity by sincerely trying to obey Him to the best of our abilities, and trying to establish that within ourselves, families and communities - genuine mistakes and slips are inevitable with Adam's children, and knowing such beforehand, He has made grace and forgiveness available in abundance.

I assure you that the only other path is subjugation to falsehood peddling global usurers, a decadent and sorrowful life on this short earth where every God given right is stamped upon and every deed is scrutinized, permitted or forbidden by people like or worse than oneself, and a wretched eternity - unless God takes the matter into His hands fully.

God's operating system is tuned for peak performance - though for some reason He has allowed room for trojans and malware in order to test us.
Any other operating system is malware in and of itself, install it and you're ruined - Washington knows that.

If you disagree, please describe a fully working model and i'll take a look, though i will not willingly disobey God. My chips are all in on that front coz i know that only God causes the sun and moon to rise and set, the planets to revolve in their orbits, and the food to grow. The pretenders just issue fraudulent iou's on the backs of the people and wield them like an illusory wand as a tool to leech them dry.


Mankind is approaching a T-junction on God's earth, and He already knows the outcome and has told you He'll win, this time it's all-in, no bluff at all so think carefully and ponder deeply.

Time is of the essence.

[Pygoscelis]

T
It's like a user manual instructing how planet earth most successfully works, he didn't bother you much until you began colonizing and then abusing and commiting grave injustices against the populations and the prayers started going up.

Wasn't me. If you want to place me in that era I would have been killed as a heretic or infidel and blasphemer, be it in in the Christian or the Muslim lands of that era.

Please think carefully and understand that my purpose is not to kill you and send you to hell, nor is it to prioritize earth over paradise.

Does that include homosexuals and apostates? You don't endorse the killing of such people? You don't think they "had it coming"? If so, then I have misjudged you and I am happy to have been wrong.

I believe that it is not possible to force someone to believe something they don't or disbelieve something they do. It would be an Orwellian idea of the term belief.

Glad we agree on that.

I do however believe that it is possible and urgently necessary to make people submit to the Laws of the Creator of all that exists in the universe as enshrined in the final and universal legislation - the Quran and Sunnah, in the social context.

Make them? Do you or do you not wish to force your views and make us conform to your rules? Can you co-exist with wine drinkers, nudists, homosexuals etc? Can you do your thing as they do theirs? If not, then don't come here. Simple.This is where we part ways.

Let us find success and fulfillment in this life and in eternity by sincerely trying to obey Him to the best of our abilities

You go ahead and do that. But know that non-muslims see your God as imaginary, and we have no interest in obeying or serving your imagination. And if you seek to make us do so, then we have a problem.

[Abz2000]

Poor pygo, you keep telling me that they are my views, when i have made it clear that God has demanded that we submit to Him. Whether you will submit or not, i don't know, but i do hope - for your sake and mine, that you, i, and we people do submit.
My duty is to make God's message reach you in the clearest terms possible and without ambiguity. And i would be deceiving and unjustly harming you if i pretended that it is ok to rebel against your Creator as long as you smiled at me and said that i was a "good" man.
You would become a slave to other men anyway in this age of microchips, titanium and usury and then you'd accuse me of deceiving you on the day of judgement.

Please understand that i am not here to drag you to hell, rather am doing my best to hold on to your belt (in a nice way, and not in the homosexual way obviously) so you don't fall in. I ask you for no reward, my reward is from Allah.

By God Who is the highest and ultimate authority, I -a human being- am not allowed to be a public nudist or sodomite, and God has plenty of pure wine in the Kingdom of heaven.
A human being is clearly distinct from other mammals so let's consider the difference when watching the discovery channel.

It is essential that we submit to His Guidance and accept His Laws (and there is no god but He, the Creator of all that exists), and hope for His reward since He is the exalted in might and wisdom.
There is so much that He has given us.

And what an ignorant and non-sensical demand it would be pygo, if i were to suggest to you that you co-exist peacefully with people who walked nude (or nearly nude) onto the train before your 3 year old, or with those who f#%&*d their grandmothers and mothers and sisters and daughters (or grandfathers, or fathers or brothers or sons) through mutual consent, or bestialised dogs or cats or pigs or goats or monkeys etc, or those who sold heroin and crack in front of schools.
Such acts are deemed illegal, haraam, unlawful, forbidden, by God just like the ones you suggested are.
A lot of repentance is required of such people, and*i dont claim that i am an angel - i too have much to repent for..

I prefer the option of repentance, since, if God were to remove from His earth those who are not willing to live and let people live under God's Laws and sincerely seeking His pleasure and guidance as legislated in Quran and Sunnah, (which is the ultimate and most worthy to be obeyed law in the universe which contains the earth that humans reside on) He'd make them leave the part of God's Kingdom where human interaction takes place -
They'd have to die, then go to hell.
And (if i am granted safety) i'd look at them on the day of judgement as people i'd failed to save, in the way a surgeon looks at his deceased patient whom he was attempting to resucitate.

Again you seem to make an attempt to confuse me with the word, while neglecting the spirit.
A part of my task here is to sincerely combine Word (kalimah) and Spirit (ruh) in True Speech (qawl al haqq).

I have also previously explained to you that we don't just emptily suppose that God may or may not exist and that His word "may only possibly" be true and only possibly just and fair.
But that He does Certainly exist, His word is certainly true, just and fair, and that He knows all that goes into the earth and all that comes out of it, that His wisdom is perfect, and that None has the right to be obeyed in disobedience to Him.

Therefore using the word "obedience" in the deceptive attempt of projecting a similarity between obedience to God, and obedience to man in disobedience to God, carries with it the burden of shirk (implying that God has rivals or partners).
Repent if you have knowingly done so in the past, and please avoid knowingly attempting to conjure such a false illusion.

Once you understand what God is, i hope you will come to the realization that the guidance of God is itself the embodiment of the moral, and that obedience to Him is the practice of the moral, and that the Quran and Sunnah are the final and universal guidance for humankind and all that they utilize

Peace be to those who submit to God and follow His Guidance.

And they take in derogation of God, "gods" so that they might be helped!
They are unable to help them: but they are to them an army present.

Quran, Chapter 36, Verses 74-75

We were falsely made to accept that Tellson's bank and temple bar had appeared to be the only reality in existence, despite the fact that there were so many signs and nagging thoughts telling us that something else, something more amazing and incomprehendable, something more awesome and magnificent was real, possibly more real than tellsons bank and temple bar - which we knew in our heart and mind to be perishable and transcient, but since we had a belly to feed in the present, and had to see tellson's bank every day, and were able to push the other thoughts to the back of our mind. We neglected the eternal and got stuck in the transcient, we stifled and suffocated our conscience and forced ourselves to imagine that the obvious truth was an imagination.

I know the thought, i know it well.
Like a compulsive drinker or drug user who knows that the sedating effects of strong drink and drugs will fade quickly, leaving only sighs and regrets, but the current absence of the future, and the blind and overwhelming urge to fulfill the present addictive lust drags him to a new depth.
Like the store thief who entered through the back entrance calculating that the store guard will be at the front and sees an item he unlawfully covets and thinks about all the effort that will be required to purchase the easily concealable item, and the ability to ignore the camera staring directly at him, consoling, deceiving himself into imagining that the monitor operator is not observing, slowly picks up two items, then after a quick, shifty glance around him, pockets one, and with a visible display of nonchalance, returns the other to the shelf.


But the reality he can't see, that he knows he's bound and subject to, eventually confronts him.

When to him are rehearsed Our Signs, "Tales of the ancients", he cries!
Soon shall We brand him on the snout!

Quran, The Pen, Chapter 68, 15-16

Repent!!!

On the Day that Allah will raise them all up (again) and show them the Truth (and meaning) of their conduct.
Allah has reckoned its (value), though they may have forgotten it, for Allah is Witness to all things.
Quran, Chapter 58, Verse 6.

Know, and be certain, that Allah is above all those things you see and don't see, those things that observe you and confront you every day, and those people who want to be your false "gods".

On that awesome day, God will ask those of us who refused to submit to His guidance:

"Did I not enjoin on you, O ye Children of Adam, that ye should not worship Satan; for that he was to you an enemy avowed?
"And that ye should worship Me, (for that) this was the Straight Way?
"But he did lead astray a great multitude of you. Did ye not, then, understand?

Quran, Chapter 36, Verses 60-62

What will you be thinking?

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

Cameron’s the one with the problem, not Muslims!

Yesterday, 19/1/2015, the UK Government wrote a letter to Muslim leaders demanding they do more to counter ‘extremism’ and that Mosques and other institutions should push “British values”.

As soon as Muslims voiced criticisms, Prime Minister David Cameron closed down the debate saying that anyone who disagreed “had a problem” – addressing Muslims as though they are his subjects, not citizens that Prime Ministers are ‘supposed’ to serve.

This letter appears to target three things:

Firstly, it fuels propaganda in the context of the Counter Terrorism and Security Bill currently before parliament. This letter and other statements sustain a false narrative that the more Islamic you are, the more of a threat you pose. This is the flawed logic upon which the UK’s entire anti-terror policy is built. It deflects attention from foreign policy and the persistent abuse of Islam on an industrial scale. Even former intelligence chief Eliza Manningham-Buller admitted that the Iraq war fuelled terror attacks.

Secondly, it places responsibility for any acts of violence onto the Muslim community. That way the state washes its hands of any security failure, which is its responsibility. It washes its hands of having to address foreign policy or Islamophobic cartoons, placing any future blame on Muslims. Hence, reinforcing the idea of collective guilt in the aftermath of any attacks.

Thirdly, it further forces the Muslim community to ‘convert’ to secular liberal values. Just as Ofsted says schools should push British values onto Muslim pupils, so too Eric Pickles, Communities Secretary tells Mosques to push “British values”.

If Cameron and Pickles had bothered to listen, they would have heard serious criticisms of government policy raised by Muslims that are obvious to any observer.

We call upon Muslim community leaders to reject this kind of imperialist approach.

Imams are currently silenced from speaking about important issues for fear of being labelled “extremists” under the government’s “Prevent” strategy. Our plea to them is that they must address Islamic issues such as jihad, shariah and Khilafah in an honest, frank and wholly Islamic way to educate the Muslim community rather than leaving them no information, incomplete information or flawed information.

They should ignore the approach by all political parties who want them to twist Islamic values and rules to suit secular liberal norms.

They should convey the noble Islamic values to the community, which guide Muslims as to their relationship with the worldwide Ummah, their speaking truth to those in power, their positive relationship with their neighbours and others in society (be they Muslim or non-Muslim), and the Islamic method to bring change in the Muslim world.

Failing to do so because of government bullying would be to fail our community – and leave us with a heavy account on Yawm al Qiyamah.

http://www.hizb.org.uk/current-affairs/camerons-the-one-with-the-problem-not-muslims

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Another update

Hizb ut-Tahrir writes to UK Mosques following government’s attempt to pressurise Imams

Dr Abdul Wahid, Chairman of the Executive Committee of Hizb ut-Tahrir Britain, will be writing to Imams and mosques across the UK this week. This follows the intimidatory letter issued by Eric Pickles on behalf of the government, in which he attempted to place responsibility – for acts of violence like those committed in Paris – on Islam and the entire Muslim community.

In the letter, Dr Abdul Wahid asks Imams to resist the pressure to create a “British” or reformed Islam that is pleasing to the government, but which compromises the tenets of Islam itself. He asks Imams to play a crucial role in guiding the community and not succumb to the fear of being labelled “extremists” asking, “if those who have this sacred knowledge do not teach people, then who will?”

He further states: “Muslims living in Britain have a choice similar to that Quraysh offered to Rasool Allah (salallahu alaihi wasallam). Either to adopt Cameron and Pickles’ values and stay silent at the munkar around us and they will be pleased and perhaps offer some token rewards, or to speak out clearly for the truth and values of Islam.”

The letter is being sent to Imams across the UK ahead of this week’s Friday Jumuah prayers.

In the name of Allah Ar Rahman Ar Raheem

To Our Respected Brothers: Imams, Khateebs, Teachers and Members of Masjid Committees

Assaalamu alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuh

Allah (SWT) says:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَقُولُوا قَوْلًا سَدِيدًا يُصْلِحْ لَكُمْ أَعْمَالَكُمْ
وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ وَمَنْ يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ َقَدْ فَازَ فَوْزًا عَظِيمًا

Believers! Fear Allah And speak words straight to the point. He will amend for you your deeds and forgive you your sins. And whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger has certainly achieved a great achievement [Al Ahzab: 33: 70-71]

Eric Pickles MP recently wrote to mosques and community leaders to tell you about what he called ‘British Islam.’ He said “There is a need to lay out more clearly than ever before what being a British Muslim means today: proud of your faith and proud of your country.” He even claimed “British values are Muslim values.”

As soon as people started to criticise the letter, Prime Minister David Cameron tried to silence them saying “anyone who has a problem with it, really has a problem.”

We have all seen wars where Britain and its allies have killed thousands of Muslims. And we have seen laws they say are to counter ‘terrorism’ yet have been used to lock people up for writing poems or browsing websites.

When these politicians tell Muslims that we must adopt British values in order to be ‘British Muslims’, it means that whenever Islam contradicts Cameron’s policies, Muslims in the UK will be expected to put aside the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (salallahu alaihi wa sallam) and instead submit to the will of these politicians.

So, instead of complaining and campaigning in a legitimate way about British foreign and domestic policies which harm Muslims or oppose Islam, Muslims would be expected to support any wars or laws that harm people from the Ummah of Muhammad (salallahu alaihi wa sallam).

In his letter, he said Muslims should choose ‘free speech’ as a fundamental value. This does not mean the speech to account a political ruler, which the Shari’ah established for us 1400 years ago. Rather, it means speech that allows writers and cartoonists to insult Allah (SWT) and our beloved Prophet Muhammad (salallahu alaihi wa sallam).

This is their ‘free speech’ – to insult that which is sacred – but to silence Muslims from talking about Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan and laws within the UK that target Muslims.

Respected Brothers!

I am aware that when Muslims teach people honestly about certain important matters in Islam – such as Shari’ah, Khilafah, Jihad or the relationships between men and women – people fear they might be called an ‘extremist’ under the government’s Prevent policy.

But if those who have this sacred knowledge do not teach people, then who will?

If they teach it as the government would like, they will misguide people, and will lie about the ahkam of Allah and the Sunnah of His Messenger (salallahu alaihi wa sallam).

If you do not talk about these issues, Muslims (especially the young) will get no information and can be misguided by the internet or will simply think Islam does not have anything significant to say on these issues.

The policies from this and the previous government, like Prevent, are silencing Muslims in our community from speaking about matters that the whole world is talking about. So for our respected Imams and teachers to be silent on this is dangerous, both in this world and the Akhira.

Muslims living in Britain have a choice similar to what Quraysh offered to Rasool Allah (salallahu alaihi wassallam). We are told either to adopt Cameron and Pickles’ values and stay silent at the munkar around us and they will be pleased and perhaps offer some token rewards, or to speak out clearly for the truth and justice. Quraysh approached Abu Talib saying “we won’t go on tolerating this insulting of our gods and forefathers. Don’t let this fitnah stay between us. Silence your nephew!”

As we all know the Messenger of Allah (salallahu alaihi wa sallam) replied “O my uncle! By Allah if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left on condition that I abandon this course, until Allah has made me victorious, or I perish therein, I would not abandon it.”

This example of the Messenger of Allah (salallahu alaihi wa sallam) is absolutely necessary for us today – not abandoning this Deen nor allowing it to be twisted and changed into something that he (salallahu alaihi wa sallam) will not recognise on the Day that is certainly coming.

http://www.hizb.org.uk/current-affairs/hizb-ut-tahrir-writes-to-uk-mosques-following-governments-attempt-to-pressurise-imams