Can Islamic marriage be in conflict with the law of the land?

[gurufabbes]

Hello all,

Given a number of cases that are usually blasted all over the media of certain Muslims engaging in illegal polygamous relations, having several wives and collecting benefits off of them, in the worst case.

Also in a more moderate case, of a Muslim man and his wife being married religiously but not having it recognized civilly, I was wondering if there was any problem with this sort of status.

Does an Islamic marriage have to be matched by a recognition by the state in the country they live? Or is it considered seperate and no real judgement can be made as to its permissibility?

Thanks,

-moi

[Karl]

Islam is not communism or fascism so marriage has nothing to do with the state. Marriage is a private affair. Muslims just have to get married in Muslim countries and stay there if they don't want any hassles by the anti Muslims regarding their private marital business.

[Zafran]

Hello all,

Given a number of cases that are usually blasted all over the media of certain Muslims engaging in illegal polygamous relations, having several wives and collecting benefits off of them, in the worst case.

Also in a more moderate case, of a Muslim man and his wife being married religiously but not having it recognized civilly, I was wondering if there was any problem with this sort of status.

Does an Islamic marriage have to be matched by a recognition by the state in the country they live? Or is it considered seperate and no real judgement can be made as to its permissibility?

Thanks,

-moi

It doesn't make sense how anybody would have a problem with consenting adults living there lives in a polygamous relationship - I mean they don't have problems legally with adultery, pre martial sex, homosexual relationships. Whats the problem with consenting adults who practice polygamy?

I'm not even going to start on mistresses.....

[gurufabbes]

It doesn't make sense how anybody would have a problem with consenting adults living there lives in a polygamous relationship - I mean they don't have problems legally with adultery, pre martial sex, homosexual relationships. Whats the problem with consenting adults who practice polygamy?

I'm not even going to start on mistresses.....

That's not my point.

My question is whether Islamic authorities prefer or require for their Muslim communities living in the West to have their marriages legally recognized.

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[ardianto]

That's not my point.

My question is whether Islamic authorities prefer or require for their Muslim communities living in the West to have their marriages legally recognized.

Greeting Gurufabbes.

I don't know about Muslims in the West. But in Indonesia, Islamic authorities encourage Muslim people to perform their marriage process with Imam from Religious Affair Office. So their marriage automatically registered in government record.

Islamic marriage that not registered still considered valid, but the couple can't have protection from civilian law.

[greenhill]

From what I know, as a muslim, we have to obey Allah's laws. With regards to marriage, if I'm not mistaken it only needs the 'to be married' couple, the imam and 2 witnesses for it to be valid. However, civil laws are also in place. So, there's the quandary...

:peace:

[Zafran]

That's not my point.

My question is whether Islamic authorities prefer or require for their Muslim communities living in the West to have their marriages legally recognized.

Islamic authorities?? you only need man, women a nikah 2 witnesses and a dowry and your married. The state generally doesn't care what people do in private in the west anyway.

After the marriage there is no authority within Islam to chase you to make your marriage legal in UK courts - that up to the individual.

[Scimitar]

That's not my point.

My question is whether Islamic authorities prefer or require for their Muslim communities living in the West to have their marriages legally recognized.

Yes. We prefer it, it is encouraged...

Scimi

[ardianto]

Islamic authorities?? you only need man, women a nikah 2 witnesses and a dowry and your married. The state generally doesn't care what people do in private in the west anyway.

After the marriage there is no authority within Islam to chase you to make your marriage legal in UK courts - that up to the individual.

If we live in a place, we must respect the local law. Registering marriage into court or civilian record office is not against Islamic law. So why don't Muslims in the West register their marriage?.

In Indonesia, government never chase people to register their marriage, but people themselves, Muslims and non-Muslims, decide to register their marriage.

[Scimitar]

apart from the obvious tax benefits :D

I'm guessing the OP is trying to ascertain whether those Muslims who live in the west, and are in polygamous marriages - are registering all their wives, right?

Hmmm... well, living in the west is very expensive, and supporting a family is tough enough, let alone a few of them... Muslims who live in the west, hardly ever go into polygamous marriages and this custom is more prevalent in the East and the Middle East as opposed to the west.

Not sure what the OP's purpose is, but if I have identified it - then his questions are answered.

Scimi

[Iceee]

Peace Be Upon You Bro. GuruFabbes

Does an Islamic marriage have to be matched by a recognition by the state in the country they live? Or is it considered seperate and no real judgement can be made as to its permissibility?

To answer your question in short, no.

Islamic marriage doesn't have to be recognized by the state/country they live in. With that said, a lot of married muslims living in Western Countries will decide to recognize their marriage for the benefits it has for them from the Government. That's why people choose to get married rather than stay in a common-law marriage or boyfriend / girlfriend sort of relationship. Also, I would love my future wife to receive mail with her name, Mrs. Iceee. :shade:

For more information about Islam & marriage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage_in_Islam - http://islamqa.info/en/112112 - http://islam.about.com/od/marriage/a/contract.htm

[Futuwwa]

I suppose that if you a a polygamist in a country that doesn't legally recognize polygamy, you should register none of the marriages. A polygamous Muslim man is religiously mandated to treat his wives equally, and not give any of them any special status over the others.

[MuslimInshallah]

Assalaamu alaikum,


(smile) In Islam, marriage is not meant to be complicated or difficult, nor is it a sacrament to be bestowed by a religious authority, or a privilege accorded by some state authority (as is seen in Burma, for instance). It is supposed to be a contract between a man and a woman establishing a bond between them that entails certain rights and obligations between the two. It is also supposed to be socially recognized, which is why a walima (wedding party) is important, and why secret weddings are not supposed to occur.


Having a marriage socially recognized means that the rights and obligations of the spouses are clearly established, the spouses are known to be living morally, and the children that might result from the union are protected. Marriage serves not only personal ends, but also societal ones. Marriage is the foundation of strong families, which in turn, are the foundation for a strong and healthy society.


(sigh) I used to believe that a witnessed Nikkah (marriage contract) with mehr was all that was needed. But in our societies today, this is not working. Some men are using the Nikkah to gain sexual access to women, but they are then refusing to acknowledge their responsibilities unless forced to by local legislation. And this is true in places as diverse as Canada, Indonesia and Pakistan. Women who don't have official papers recognizing their marriages, too often end up being shamefully mistreated. The rights of the children vary upon the place. I believe in Indonesia, they have no rights (Ardianto can correct me). However, in my home province, all children are protected by legislation, regardless of whether the marriage is legally recognized or not, or indeed regardless of whether the parents had any kind of marriage or not.


Because of this mistreatment of women, more and more Muslim community leaders are emphasizing the importance of registering the marriage. This provides the women (and possibly children) with some sort of protections. Of course, if God was truly believed in and respected by all parties, the Nikkah would suffice for a woman and her children to access their rights. But as things stand right now, this is not the case.


As far as polygynous marriages are concerned, this is an area of much abuse. And legislation banning them just exacerbates the problem. If anyone truly cares about Muslim women and children, they would be making it possible to register these sorts of marriages.


There are those who would argue that a Muslim woman should just not chose to engage in a polygynous marriage. But if there is a lack of men to marry (and this is an issue in Canada), what are women supposed to do? It is unreasonable to expect women to remain celibate, childless or alone. Nor is this state of affairs Islamic (we are all encouraged to try to marry, and Muslim men are not supposed to leave women who want to marry in this state). What are the options? Engage in extra-marital activity, marry a non-Muslim, try finding a Muslim man in another country to bring to her country, say, Canada (which is incredibly risky, and usually ends badly for the woman and her children) or engage in a polygynous marriage (if you can find a man willing to do this. Most Muslim men don't want multiple wives, you know).


The idea that Muslim men are using their families as ways to make money is morally repugnant. Islamically-speaking, it is the man's responsibility to provide for his wife and children. I have no problem with families who receive some sort of universally-available government support as needed, but the idea that some men may marry multiple wives so that they can take money from them and their children, is not at all Islamic.


Gurufabbes, you asked whether Muslims must have state recognition of their marriages. Muslims are supposed to strive for justice and social harmony. In the context of a country that does not recognize an Islamic marriage as binding on the spouses, it seems to me therefore, that either the marriage should be registered (if this is possible), or if it is not possible, that the couple sincerely seek to find ways to have their rights and obligations made binding before consummating a marriage. In my home province, it is possible for non-married couples to draw up binding agreements (though I don't know if this has been tested in the context of a man who is already married). I don't know about legislation in your country.


If we all, Muslims and non-Muslims, truly want to protect the vulnerable and build strong and caring societies, I believe we can find ways to do so. Personally, I feel that recognizing the Nikkah as a binding and legal document of marriage that would bring with it the societal norms of protection for the vulnerable, would be a useful step towards curbing abuses. Having social benefits paid to the mother of a child (as we do in my home province) would help stop men from taking these benefits. And giving a Muslim woman unstigmatized social recognition, would help empower her to exit from abusive situations.


May God, the Witness and the Truth, Help us to consider how we can best achieve His Injunctions to justice and harmony.

[gurufabbes]

"mehr"?


Great answers, thank you "musliminshallah", ice, futawwa, scimitar and ardianto,greenhill.

As for Karl and Zafran:

I tried to express the question in a neutral fashion.

I personally don't have any problem with polygamy.
The question however wasn't really about polygamy or a criticism of Muslim marriage, but more about how it interacts with secular law in a non-Muslim country.

[ardianto]

"mehr"?

Mehr is first gift that given by the husband to the wife when they start their married life. There's no specific amount of mehr, and it doesn't have to always in form of money. When I got married in 1994 the mehr that I've given to my late wife (she passed away in 2013) where Qur'an, prayer mat, woman prayer clothes, and small amount of gold.

[gurufabbes]

Mehr is first gift that given by the husband to the wife when they start their married life. There's no specific amount of mehr, and it doesn't have to always in form of money. When I got married in 1994 the mehr that I've given to my late wife (she passed away in 2013) where Qur'an, prayer mat, woman prayer clothes, and small amount of gold.

My sincere condolences.

Thank you for the answer.

Is giving a bride price an Islamic idea? or un-Islamic?

Are there different ways of being defacto married according to the Sharia, beyond the nikah?

[greenhill]

The dowry is part of the rights of a woman. It is hers to keep. Just like her inheritance. Her her husband has no say over it.

The woman has other non financial rights too, but man has more rights. Responsibilities as part of the parcel. But most seem to think it as a privilege. . . Until when they have to account for it.

:peace:

[ardianto]

My sincere condolences.

Thank you very much, my friend.

Thank you for the answer.

Is giving a bride price an Islamic idea? or un-Islamic?

Mehr is not a payment to buy a bride, but gift from the groom to the bride. This is not that discussed before agreement to get married, but after the agreement. In this matter, the woman must not have attitude "I will marry you if you can give me .......". What the woman must do is accept the man without talk about mehr. Then after they decide when will they do nikah, the woman can request mehr. Of course, she must consider the man's affordability. If the man is poor, she should request low amount. If the man is rich, it's okay if she request high amount. For whom the mehr is?. For the the bride herself, not for her family.

Is the amount of mehr negotiable?. Yes. But from what I've noticed among my relatives and friends, it's never happen because the women already know the men affordability, while the men themselves want to give this gift.

Are there different ways of being defacto married according to the Sharia, beyond the nikah?

Nikah itself means "getting married". The only way to get married for Muslims is follow the Islamic rule.

How the nikah performed?. Here my story.

Me and my bride sat side by side behind a desk. In the opposite side there were Imam and my bride's father. In the other sides there were two witnesses. The Imam recited some Qur'anic verses. Then my bride's father hold my hand and said "Ardianto, I marry off you to my daughter with mehr .....". I replied "I accept this nikah with mehr ......". Then the Imam looked at the witnesses and asked them "Is the nikah valid?". The witnesses said "Valid!". Then Imam said "Alhamdulillah, now they have become husband and wife".

Simple, isn't it?. :)

[ardianto]

I suppose that if you a a polygamist in a country that doesn't legally recognize polygamy, you should register none of the marriages. A polygamous Muslim man is religiously mandated to treat his wives equally, and not give any of them any special status over the others.

The most important thing in polygamous marriage is not the legal status, but how to love and give attention to all wives equally. In certain countries that recognize polygamy a man can register all of his wives, but there's always case which a man love one wife so much and neglect the other wives. It's not treat equally, of course.

Is there no special status over the others in polygamous marriage?. In fact, there is special status. Polygamous marriage usually happen through process a man marries a woman. Then marries second, third woman, fourth woman. It's very rare a polygamous marriage that happen because the man marries more than one woman at once. So, there are status as first wife, second wife, third wife, and fourth wife.

In countries that do not recognize polygamy, a polygamous man can register only his first wife, but he must able to treat all of his wives equal in love and attention, including in inheritance issues.

[aflawedbeing]

I suppose that if you a a polygamist in a country that doesn't legally recognize polygamy, you should register none of the marriages. A polygamous Muslim man is religiously mandated to treat his wives equally, and not give any of them any special status over the others.

Sure.
This is exactly right.

I live in the West, and my wife and I have not legally registered our marriage.
We got married Islamically, so in the way that matters we are married. Alhamdulillah.

I'm not planning on a second wife, though.
But will admit, my wife is more okay with the idea than I am (when she's in the mood to suggest it lol) and it's nice to have the option there. I guess.

[gurufabbes]

Sure.
This is exactly right.

I live in the West, and my wife and I have not legally registered our marriage.
We got married Islamically, so in the way that matters we are married. Alhamdulillah.

I'm not planning on a second wife, though.
But will admit, my wife is more okay with the idea than I am (when she's in the mood to suggest it lol) and it's nice to have the option there. I guess.

I have no clue how that comes up in conversation.

[aflawedbeing]

We didn't register our marriage by fluke.
It was kind of laziness and the fact our marriage was very rushed.
Nothing related to polygamy.

The polygamy thing is a bit weirder? My wife approached me about it almost out of nowhere, when she had heard of new convert sister going through a struggle in mid-2013, a story that had really tugged on her heart strings. Not that I'd believe for a second she wouldn't be jealous...Or maybe she's trying to get a break from me? :P
I declined even meeting the sister.
The topic has come up since in a more general sense, but that was the first time she'd said she would be fine with it.

[gurufabbes]

We didn't register our marriage by fluke.
It was kind of laziness and the fact our marriage was very rushed.
Nothing related to polygamy.

The polygamy thing is a bit weirder? My wife approached me about it almost out of nowhere, when she had heard of new convert sister going through a struggle in mid-2013, a story that had really tugged on her heart strings. Not that I'd believe for a second she wouldn't be jealous...Or maybe she's trying to get a break from me? :P
I declined even meeting the sister.
The topic has come up since in a more general sense, but that was the first time she'd said she would be fine with it.

Thanks for the insight. That is... amazing.

Polygamy in my opinion being a point in Islam's favour that is more in keeping with human nature and the needs of society than the other religions.