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Auratricles
02-11-2015, 03:52 AM
Hello, my name is Auratricles.

I am an Atheist, I believe without a doubt, that there is no god.

I believe that these holy books (Qur'an, Bible, ect) are nothing but fairy tails woven by people in ancient times as an attempt at explaining the world around them, or as a means of control over certain people.

I have come here, to see if anyone at all can make me believe in god (expect me to refute to any "proof" provided, and also for me to point out any logical fallacies I may see).

Also if you have any questions I would be happy to answer them also.
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Auratricles
02-11-2015, 04:31 AM
(bump)
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Patrick
02-11-2015, 07:25 AM
He can't be proven. But there is something interesting you can explain. In science after years of discovery there theory basically comes down to 1 event that created everything to exist in the universe. Now there name for it is the big bang. And when the big bang occurred all else that was to be was. To me that is another religion. There name big bang can be called that because science uses terminology but you can very easily put a term on it that calls "big bang" God, Creator, or Allah. To me they believe in one creator it is no different. The only difference is how much longer it took them to start to believe that one thing created the universe than it took the believers from the books. Atheism is just another religion to me with other explanations of our origins. You can just say we discovered that first.
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Patrick
02-11-2015, 08:12 AM
Allah also never said he was human. And if you ask many muslims Christians Buddhist or Jews to describe him it's not like we have an answer. I'm not talking away from scientific accomplishments I'm just merely explaining that in order for them to believe in one thing that has life stars people anything in the universe it had to come from there creator. And thus all in the universe no matter how young or old has been created from it. Just as Allah described to us many times before it became what is claimed by all scientific scholars to the date. He said he put all stars in balence and made them that way perfectly. He also said he is lord of the worlds. As followers of Allah you were given the task of not changing his words so they could not be altered or added to no matter what information a human being figured out for himself down the line after the book was given. Science a main mean for people to not believe in Allah but in its beginnings believes all must have come from one creator has been given thousands and thousands of years to add and elaborate any theory they choose to discover next. Allah said I will let you take forever to try to find out the depths of me and you will need longer still. My only point it is is impossible to live amongst the world and universe that has taken its shape from the creator in any which way you want to look at it with out coming to the conclusion yes there was one creator and my name for it is.......Well whatever you are allowed to decide but we as believers like to call him Allah.
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sister herb
02-11-2015, 08:25 AM
Originally Posted by Auratricles
I have come here, to see if anyone at all can make me believe in god (expect me to refute to any "proof" provided, and also for me to point out any logical fallacies I may see).
Hello Auratricles

No human can make you to believe to anything - this is Allah who decides if you are able to believe or not. Read the Quran and think can you open your heart to Islam.

Also if you have any questions I would be happy to answer them also.
I think we haven´t interest to ask questions about atheism. This is the forum where you (and others) can ask questions and seek knowledge about Islam. You are the most welcome to find more information about that subject from here.
Reply

greenhill
02-11-2015, 09:36 AM
Welcome to the forum.

God is a personal thing. A person needs to find Him of his own initiative. And, if Allah has challenged all to read it, then that's where it should start.

Wishing you a great stay.

:peace:
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sister herb
02-11-2015, 09:53 AM
Also remember that many today´s muslims are yesterday's atheists - like myself for example. Paths what Allah has planned to everyone are
mysterious. And Allah is the best planner.

:statisfie
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Abdullahh
02-11-2015, 04:12 PM
Hello there. I was an atheist at one time, and I understand how you feel about Allah and the whole idea of religion due to the fact that I felt that way for around 5 years or so..I encourage you to read the Quran if you find the time.
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MuslimInshallah
02-11-2015, 06:07 PM
Greetings Auratricles,

(smile) You know, your name is rather intriguing. I'm afraid my Latin is abysmal, but doesn't your (somewhat anglicized) name mean something like: glory of the golden three? It's a bit curious for an atheist to have such a name. Would you mind sharing why you chose this name (or have I understood it incorrectly)? I find the names people choose tend to reflect something about them. (smile) And I like to know and understand my interlocutors.

May God, the One and Only, Bless you with deepening insights.
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Auratricles
02-11-2015, 07:08 PM
Originally Posted by Patrick
He can't be proven. But there is something interesting you can explain. In science after years of discovery there theory basically comes down to 1 event that created everything to exist in the universe. Now there name for it is the big bang. And when the big bang occurred all else that was to be was. To me that is another religion. There name big bang can be called that because science uses terminology but you can very easily put a term on it that calls "big bang" God, Creator, or Allah. To me they believe in one creator it is no different. The only difference is how much longer it took them to start to believe that one thing created the universe than it took the believers from the books. Atheism is just another religion to me with other explanations of our origins. You can just say we discovered that first.
Okay, that is a fair way of putting it.

Atheists, or at least most Atheists, believe in science and logical reasoning.
This can be said for me, I do not just believe what is told to me, I want evidence not promises.

Look, it doesn't take a mastermind to understand, the universe has a beginning and an end, just because a religion says "God created the universe(or earth whatever)." does not mean that it is directly referring to the Big Bang, also I would like to say that, if you are in the middle ages, it would be safe to assume that the world had a beginning, and an end, it doesn't require scientific testing to know that everything has a beginning and an end, the universe is no exception to that. Therefore I would say that the references to the creation of the universe/earth is not that much proof of a god or deity.
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Auratricles
02-11-2015, 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by Patrick
Allah also never said he was human. And if you ask many muslims Christians Buddhist or Jews to describe him it's not like we have an answer. I'm not talking away from scientific accomplishments I'm just merely explaining that in order for them to believe in one thing that has life stars people anything in the universe it had to come from there creator. And thus all in the universe no matter how young or old has been created from it. Just as Allah described to us many times before it became what is claimed by all scientific scholars to the date. He said he put all stars in balence and made them that way perfectly. He also said he is lord of the worlds. As followers of Allah you were given the task of not changing his words so they could not be altered or added to no matter what information a human being figured out for himself down the line after the book was given. Science a main mean for people to not believe in Allah but in its beginnings believes all must have come from one creator has been given thousands and thousands of years to add and elaborate any theory they choose to discover next. Allah said I will let you take forever to try to find out the depths of me and you will need longer still. My only point it is is impossible to live amongst the world and universe that has taken its shape from the creator in any which way you want to look at it with out coming to the conclusion yes there was one creator and my name for it is.......Well whatever you are allowed to decide but we as believers like to call him Allah.
First of all, in the Bible it says God made humans in his image, so it is safe to assume from their point of view, God is human-like. Now then getting on to the rest of your argument, the universe was created by the Big Bang, it is the one theory that doesn't have holes in it, the only hole most creationists (people who believe a god/deity) seem to think they've found is that "Well what was before the big bang?" most people fail to argue this, but there was nothing. There no time, no space, nothing. When the Big Bang occurred, earth was slowly over-time made into what it is today, we and probably many MANY MANY organisms in the universe slowly evolved from our little/big planets. Not because some cognitive god/deity put us there, but because we were lucky, not just like winning the lottery lucky, I mean it's likely to be around a 1 in 800 million chance of us landing on this spot. Again most people use that as an argument for "God put the earth where it is, how else would we have landed in this 1 specific spot!" the simple explanation for that is thus: We are here by chance, if conditions were different, we may not have evolved to what we are today, the dominant species could be horses, or cows or anything for that matter that had gotten an evolutionary advantage.
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Auratricles
02-11-2015, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
Hello Auratricles

No human can make you to believe to anything - this is Allah who decides if you are able to believe or not. Read the Quran and think can you open your heart to Islam.



I think we haven´t interest to ask questions about atheism. This is the forum where you (and others) can ask questions and seek knowledge about Islam. You are the most welcome to find more information about that subject from here.
I will read the Qur'an when I have the time, I'm currently studying medicine and health-care so my time is limited. I just added that there as a way of keeping things from getting dull, I didn't mean to make you think I was stealing the point of the forum.
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Auratricles
02-11-2015, 07:31 PM
Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
Greetings Auratricles,

(smile) You know, your name is rather intriguing. I'm afraid my Latin is abysmal, but doesn't your (somewhat anglicized) name mean something like: glory of the golden three? It's a bit curious for an atheist to have such a name. Would you mind sharing why you chose this name (or have I understood it incorrectly)? I find the names people choose tend to reflect something about them. (smile) And I like to know and understand my interlocutors.

May God, the One and Only, Bless you with deepening insights.
Well you are right, it reflects my fascination Ancient Rome culture, I find them intriguing, the name itself was chosen for me by a fellow Ancient Rome fanatic who's knowledge on the subject far supersedes mine. However. He did not give me the meaning of the name, he merely said the following: "If you want to know the meaning of your name, you will need to learn Latin in order to not only understand modern Englishes origins, but also how to read like the ancient Romans did." A quote that has inspired me to begin to learn Latin - only however when I have the time, but it is high on my bucket list.
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MuslimInshallah
02-11-2015, 08:44 PM
Originally Posted by Auratricles
First of all, in the Bible it says God made humans in his image, so it is safe to assume from their point of view, God is human-like.
Hello Auratricles,

Thank you for answering about your name. (twinkle) It makes me wonder about your friend. Was he a Christian, by any chance? Because this is an invented name (it does not exist otherwise- I checked to be sure). Patrocles (a real name) means "glory of the father", auro means gold and tri means three...

(smile) Anyway, nice to meet you Aurotricles.

Mmm, regarding your assertion I've quoted above, I don't think you can really use the Bible to "prove" your points on this Forum. Also, I feel you are putting words into Christians' mouths. As you have asserted that you are not a Christian, I'm not sure that this is quite fair. Certainly as a Muslim, I feel that Christian arguments seem to slide in this direction, but I feel we ought to have some knowledgeable Christian input on this point.

As for your assertion that before this universe there was nothing, I feel I must ask you: where did everything come from, then, in your opinion?

May God Bless you with what is best for you.
Reply

The-Deist
02-11-2015, 09:45 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rh_GalBsbMY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wUoxwNGcRGA

May Allah (swt) guide you to Islam
Aameen
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Patrick
02-11-2015, 09:50 PM
If it is a 1 and 800 million i would say more like 1 and the number for infinite chance for us to be here. That using the combination of not only the earth to have in its conditions but other things. 1 dominate species had to be completely exterminated for us to even have a chance. Even with 1 1000th the amount of animal life that existed at the time of other life living here it would have been to large to even give us an opportunity at life at all. We would have died. When the earth changed all animals were made certain sizes let's say that's evolution. Where mammals where the largest life forms that had a chance to continue foward. If you know none of the animals that proceded at that size were meat eaters. Elephants and whales being the largest land mammal and water living things. Giving us a chance greater where as if it would have been an amphibian geeko or aligator not put into a smaller proportion we would have had serious problems. Yet they were made to the smallest they could have been. If even an ant without mammal reasoning which allways comes with more compasion or understanding would have been at a size of a hippo than once again human life has no chance. These could have all been adaption if you believe so or it could have been the world attempting to go to a higher consciousness that it was originally born from trying to reach.
Now these are some of the conditions if you believe in darwin or evolution that had to take place for human existance. Of coarse on earth there must have been much more. Now the reason I stated the chances of us being here are 1 in infinity is not just the reasoning of the earth's creation but the odds of its placement then of coarse the real reason for the number the fact that the universe was even shaped to begin with. The odds of a big bang event even occurring from absolutely nothing have to be improbable as far as putting a number on an event like that. So I believe it's not 1 in 800 million or billion were here but 1 and a number too large for any of us to actually calculate. I just call the number infinate. The meaning of making man in his image I don't know. Maybe it was the image in the way he saw creation? Which as his creation the way he saw life to take shape if there was to be something of life. I wasn't referring to the believers thinking the big bang was Allah I was referring to the fact no theory can be made without 1 creator. Muslims don't believe he was the big bang scientists believe there single creator was. I was merely referring to the point they can not escape the same belief which is similar to the one creator Muslims believe in. Yes everything has a beginning and an end and no not everyone knew of this. It did take much understanding to realize the sun would die the earth would die and the stars as well. This wasn't something every ancient tribe was understanding just because humans or animals died in there time. The books eventually put it into a simpler context of this truth of all time ending and Allah being the last thing left. As far as this goes I can give you no discussion no one of this earth has seen forever. And this is where faith is implimented. As far as us seeing things as a purpose I think if you be lived in nothing whatever sparked nothing had something in shape. If it was all accidental orbits might have not taken shape it might have been only chaos. With no means of supporting any form of life. If it didn't have a meaning maybe even stars who are alive wouldn't have stuck around too long. It obviously had an intention that this life force should sustain itself in some manner before our version of life should arrive. Evolution is not what you believe it is. People like the Buddha Essa Muhammad had more access to knowledge than I believe we do. I don't see 20000 Buddha's walking the earth. I see us making things trying to understand like Allah does creating machines to carry out our tasks as he did angels. I can not prove to you why you should believe in Allah there were people that Allah showed signs to that did not believe before he decided to seal the prophets. It's too hard with just theories to prove Allah. As we've shown it's much much easier to prove everything else we choose to believe.
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sister herb
02-11-2015, 10:09 PM
Originally Posted by Auratricles
I will read the Qur'an when I have the time, I'm currently studying medicine and health-care so my time is limited. I just added that there as a way of keeping things from getting dull, I didn't mean to make you think I was stealing the point of the forum.
My advice is that don´t leave reading the Quran too far. We never know when it is our last breath. This life makes us busy I know but we should make ourselves more busy for hereafter. We (muslims) know that it is the place where we will reside forever and that is a quite long time. :playing: Not a little trip only, huh?

The Quran may change your life (or then not but who knows it before). You just have to take the first step and open it.
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Patrick
02-11-2015, 10:15 PM
You also I believe are almost giving our knowledge that we discover a little too much credit. As advanced a computers and simulated machines are getting you have to ask how long would it take to make a world in which things unknowingly could live in it be alive to themselves and those around them but never be able to find out what's outside of it. It's kind of science fictional but it could be possible. I think it is at least. I just dont understand how real we are making things in this way but we couldn't understand that maybe just possibly something created this process first? Something intelligent possibly? I don't see why we should believe we would be so intelligent to make things like this possible but for something outside of our knowledge to do this first? I guess I believe in intelligent life outside of us and if we possibly could even get close to this I don't see why a consciousness higher than all of us couldn't have completed the task a little bigger than we could.
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Auratricles
02-11-2015, 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
Hello Auratricles,

Thank you for answering about your name. (twinkle) It makes me wonder about your friend. Was he a Christian, by any chance? Because this is an invented name (it does not exist otherwise- I checked to be sure). Patrocles (a real name) means "glory of the father", auro means gold and tri means three...

(smile) Anyway, nice to meet you Aurotricles.

Mmm, regarding your assertion I've quoted above, I don't think you can really use the Bible to "prove" your points on this Forum. Also, I feel you are putting words into Christians' mouths. As you have asserted that you are not a Christian, I'm not sure that this is quite fair. Certainly as a Muslim, I feel that Christian arguments seem to slide in this direction, but I feel we ought to have some knowledgeable Christian input on this point.

As for your assertion that before this universe there was nothing, I feel I must ask you: where did everything come from, then, in your opinion?

May God Bless you with what is best for you.
When I said that stuff about the Bible, and "their point of view" I was referencing the Christians, not anyone else. He was born into an Atheist family and remains an Atheist to this day. Also I didn't use the Bible as a point, I was merely correcting Patrick about him saying how if you asked Christians to describe him, they wouldn't have an answer, whereas in reality, in their Bible it says that God made humans in his image.

As to your question about where everything came from, I feel this video may suffice as the answer to your question.
youtube . com /watch?v=wNDGgL73ihY
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Auratricles
02-11-2015, 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
My advice is that don´t leave reading the Quran too far. We never know when it is our last breath. This life makes us busy I know but we should make ourselves more busy for hereafter. We (muslims) know that it is the place where we will reside forever and that is a quite long time. :playing: Not a little trip only, huh?

The Quran may change your life (or then not but who knows it before). You just have to take the first step and open it.
Debating religion is only a hobby for me, I would never give up something more important (my education) to read a book like the Qur'an which ( I hope you don't take offence to this) to me is fiction, but for now, as skeptical as I am, I will eventually get to it, perhaps on a boring weekend or when I have some free time.
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The-Deist
02-11-2015, 10:35 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAPqwOV8zn8
Reply

Auratricles
02-11-2015, 10:40 PM
Originally Posted by Patrick
If it is a 1 and 800 million i would say more like 1 and the number for infinite chance for us to be here. That using the combination of not only the earth to have in its conditions but other things. 1 dominate species had to be completely exterminated for us to even have a chance. Even with 1 1000th the amount of animal life that existed at the time of other life living here it would have been to large to even give us an opportunity at life at all. We would have died. When the earth changed all animals were made certain sizes let's say that's evolution. Where mammals where the largest life forms that had a chance to continue foward. If you know none of the animals that proceded at that size were meat eaters. Elephants and whales being the largest land mammal and water living things. Giving us a chance greater where as if it would have been an amphibian geeko or aligator not put into a smaller proportion we would have had serious problems. Yet they were made to the smallest they could have been. If even an ant without mammal reasoning which allways comes with more compasion or understanding would have been at a size of a hippo than once again human life has no chance. These could have all been adaption if you believe so or it could have been the world attempting to go to a higher consciousness that it was originally born from trying to reach.
Now these are some of the conditions if you believe in darwin or evolution that had to take place for human existance. Of coarse on earth there must have been much more. Now the reason I stated the chances of us being here are 1 in infinity is not just the reasoning of the earth's creation but the odds of its placement then of coarse the real reason for the number the fact that the universe was even shaped to begin with. The odds of a big bang event even occurring from absolutely nothing have to be improbable as far as putting a number on an event like that. So I believe it's not 1 in 800 million or billion were here but 1 and a number too large for any of us to actually calculate. I just call the number infinate. The meaning of making man in his image I don't know. Maybe it was the image in the way he saw creation? Which as his creation the way he saw life to take shape if there was to be something of life. I wasn't referring to the believers thinking the big bang was Allah I was referring to the fact no theory can be made without 1 creator. Muslims don't believe he was the big bang scientists believe there single creator was. I was merely referring to the point they can not escape the same belief which is similar to the one creator Muslims believe in. Yes everything has a beginning and an end and no not everyone knew of this. It did take much understanding to realize the sun would die the earth would die and the stars as well. This wasn't something every ancient tribe was understanding just because humans or animals died in there time. The books eventually put it into a simpler context of this truth of all time ending and Allah being the last thing left. As far as this goes I can give you no discussion no one of this earth has seen forever. And this is where faith is implimented. As far as us seeing things as a purpose I think if you be lived in nothing whatever sparked nothing had something in shape. If it was all accidental orbits might have not taken shape it might have been only chaos. With no means of supporting any form of life. If it didn't have a meaning maybe even stars who are alive wouldn't have stuck around too long. It obviously had an intention that this life force should sustain itself in some manner before our version of life should arrive. Evolution is not what you believe it is. People like the Buddha Essa Muhammad had more access to knowledge than I believe we do. I don't see 20000 Buddha's walking the earth. I see us making things trying to understand like Allah does creating machines to carry out our tasks as he did angels. I can not prove to you why you should believe in Allah there were people that Allah showed signs to that did not believe before he decided to seal the prophets. It's too hard with just theories to prove Allah. As we've shown it's much much easier to prove everything else we choose to believe.
I don't really understand this grammar, can you rephrase this? Or at least try putting it into paragraphs, Because it's 1) hard to read 2) it looks as if it's grammatically unsound. Example : "Where mammals where the largest life forms that had a chance to continue foward. If you know none of the animals that proceded at that size were meat eaters." That is incoherent and I find it hard to grasp to what he is trying to say (this is just one out of many lines that seemed incoherent.)
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Auratricles
02-11-2015, 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by Patrick
You also I believe are almost giving our knowledge that we discover a little too much credit. As advanced a computers and simulated machines are getting you have to ask how long would it take to make a world in which things unknowingly could live in it be alive to themselves and those around them but never be able to find out what's outside of it. It's kind of science fictional but it could be possible. I think it is at least. I just dont understand how real we are making things in this way but we couldn't understand that maybe just possibly something created this process first? Something intelligent possibly? I don't see why we should believe we would be so intelligent to make things like this possible but for something outside of our knowledge to do this first? I guess I believe in intelligent life outside of us and if we possibly could even get close to this I don't see why a consciousness higher than all of us couldn't have completed the task a little bigger than we could.
Look okay, the only reason we think there is a entity that made us all is because we are cognitive, we expect something similar to have made all of this, we just put the blame on something with a higher knowledge or intelligence, the evidence is overwhelming that without us in the universe nothing would change, the earth is barely a quarter of a spec of dust in this universe, we are meaningless to the rest of this universe, the conclusion of this is; God is only a theory, based on no evidence, made by some people in the middle-east around 2000 years ago, and in turn is a logical fallacy.
The reason why I think there is no way there is a god, the only reason we think there is a creator in the first place is because someone decided to write a book, and in this book it told people there was a creator of the universe, people actually took it seriously and started to believe it.

It's too easy to lie and say things in a book that are NOT true. It doesn't take a genius to write a book like the Bible or Qur'an or any other holy book.

Like for instance, the writer of the book of Scientology, you know the Scientologists holy book, he was a known fiction writer.
His stories are no more crazy then those of the Bible or other holy books.
They just have a more sci-fi twist.

Also, if he is this higher all knowing intelligence that made us all, then why can't we have just been born with the knowledge, he knows what we'll do since he's all knowing, so why did he put us here.
People say hes here to test us, well guess what, he knows what's going to happen, so why does he need to test us?

Also, why does he care about a tiny race in the middle of a huge universe. Why does he care what we eat, why does he care about what we think or do, why does he even need us to know hes there. Why does he care about us at all, he's god he shouldn't need to care about anyone, he created the universe and gave us a chance to live that should be all he needs to do. Also if he cares about us, why does he send people to hell? So since I may have done something bad once, I'm going to hell, also if he did care about us, why would he sentence us to hell to be tortured for all of eternity, to punish us? To correct us? To fix us? In that case why even be born just to be sentenced to eternal torture.
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Patrick
02-11-2015, 11:18 PM
Ok bro after what you said to sister herb. As I see you've come in here for egotistical purposes I would now like you to leave. Gaining pleasure from trying to prove superiority over good people as you have just done is in our belief haram. Your attitude towards this woman's last response has now proven this too me. So go to your school learn what they tell you and believe what you choose. Saying on a boring day is quite disrespectful to these people you have baited into an argument to brush them off as saying challenging us is a hobby. My friend I really really want you to be an atheist and believe in superiority due to right because I want you to understand something quite clear that a believer would object but a non believer must. You will never be superior to me physically from my genetics to my intelligence. I was made as tough in both ways. Now for this disrespect by taking advantage of these kind hearted people I want you to know in your deceiving heart there are things greater than you. People your teachers men who accomplish great things in this world that will allways look at you as the bottom of your darwin food chain. It took me awhile to see your intentions and want you to understand your entire existance was solely to be put under those who were born stronger smarter and given more wealth than you. That is your meaning in life. To be inferior. I would never in my life say this to a believer because I know we are equals. But remember this you will allways have 2 God's in this world atheist the people put in power of you who tell you how to eat where your allowed to work and control every aspect your life has taken shape of since you were a child and had to eat. The last God is death. He will allways tell you when and how you will leave. I'm sorry to the people on this page I mean no disrespect but I've had a very very difficult day. To you I suggest you find other hobbies than taking advantage of people's beliefs and hopes. You my friend have shown a weak humanistic quality that thrives off of manipulation of good people maybe you don't understand that yet but Allah will show it in time.
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Auratricles
02-11-2015, 11:20 PM
"Everything needs a creator." The fact is, the universe very well could have been created by nothing. Just look at the url I put up on a previous comment earlier.
Reply

Patrick
02-11-2015, 11:28 PM
I'm typing on a phone where and were are hard to alter. Grammer is of no matter. You know what I was getting at. I don't care to debate with you any longer your not worth it. Grammer and corrective sentences as well as the ordering as you see them from the logic you have understood are never more important than the meaning. Which is a problem logic only people like you allways have especially in the importance of greater things.
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sister herb
02-11-2015, 11:31 PM
Education is important too. Actually I am studing just same like you do. Which one is more important - studing for life or studing for eternity is of course anyones personal choise.

Any ways, I wish you many boring weekends then. :D
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Auratricles
02-11-2015, 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by Patrick
Ok bro after what you said to sister herb. As I see you've come in here for egotistical purposes I would now like you to leave. Gaining pleasure from trying to prove superiority over good people as you have just done is in our belief haram. clear that a believer would object but a non believer must. You will never be superior to me physically from Your attitude towards this woman's last response has now proven this too me. So go to your school learn what they tell you and believe what you choose. Saying on a boring day is quite disrespectful to these people you have baited into an argument to brush them off as saying challenging us is a hobby. My friend I really really want you to be an atheist and believe in superiority due to right becausee I want you to understand something quitemy genetics to my intelligence. I was made as tough in both ways. Now for this disrespect by taking advantage of these kind hearted people I want you to know in your deceiving heart there are things greater than you. People your teachers men who accomplish great things in this world that will allways look at you as the bottom of your darwin food chain. It took me awhile to see your intentions and want you to understand your entire existance was solely to be put under those who were born strongr smarter and given more wealth than you. That is your meaning in life. To be inferior. I would never in my life say this to a believer because I know we are equals. But remember this you will allways have 2 God's in this world atheist the people put in power of you who tell you how to eat where your allowed to work and control every aspect your life has taken shape of since you were a child and had to eat. The last God is death. He will allways tell you when and how you will leave. I'm sorry to the people on this page I mean no disrespect but I've had a very very difficult day. To you I suggest you find other hobbies than taking advantage of people's beliefs and hopes. You my friend have shown a weak humanistic quality that thrives off of manipulation of good people maybe you don't understand that yet but Allah will show it in time.
Well then, I would just like to say I try to be as non-offensive as possible.

You say I am the one who is attacking you, when it is clear that you are taking an attack upon me. Let me just put some quotes up to prove this point: "Now for this disrespect by taking advantage of these kind hearted people I want you to know in your deceiving heart there are things greater than you. People your teachers men who accomplish great things in this world that will allways look at you as the bottom of your darwin food chain. It took me awhile to see your intentions and want you to understand your entire existance was solely to be put under those who were born stronger smarter and given more wealth than you."

You say I am being disrespectful, yet you say

"It took me awhile to see your intentions and want you to understand your entire existance was solely to be put under those who were born stronger smarter and given more wealth than you."

" I want you to know in your deceiving heart there are things greater than you. People your teachers men who accomplish great things in this world that will allways look at you as the bottom of your darwin food chain."

You claim I will never reach your level of genetic superiority, yet you have more grammatical errors then most people on this thread.
You make points with no evidence, you say things you don't even know, you don't know my age, gender, size, or intelligence.
You know nothing about me but you make such outrageous claims.
You say I will become nothing, and you say I am disrespectful to you and your "people".
You say "these kind hearted people" I assume you are referring to yourself and others, well this reply refutes that I'm afraid.
If I was one to believe stereotypes, you would be confirming one.

You say that I am taking advantage of these people, yet you continue to write and even post this reply, you admit you have had a bad day, and that you are most likely posting this because of that, are you not taking out your anger or aggression on me? Is that not taking advantage?

If anything, you have brought a unexpected slur and caused me to change how I thought of this website and possibly of this religion fully. I was expecting you all to be accepting of my criticism, as Islam claims to be a religion of tolerance.
Reply

sister herb
02-11-2015, 11:41 PM
Originally Posted by Auratricles
"Everything needs a creator." The fact is, the universe very well could have been created by nothing. Just look at the url I put up on a previous comment earlier.
Actually, this your comment is against of the basic scientific fact number 1:

"Energy and matter can not be created nor destroyed from emptiness."

Everyone can claims to be an atheist but it doesn´t everytimes mean that every atheist would really understand scientific laws any better than ordinary people in general.

Have a good night to you any ways - its time to sleep now.
Reply

Auratricles
02-11-2015, 11:46 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
Education is important too. Actually I am studing just same like you do. Which one is more important - studing for life or studing for eternity is of course anyones personal choise.

Any ways, I wish you many boring weekends then. :D
Thank you, also I would like to say I meant boring weekends as in weekends when I have nothing important to do (some unnamed people seems to have taken offence to that misunderstanding so I thought I'd let you know too.)

Also, to an Atheist, who by definition does not believe in god, it's probably going to be just studying for life.
Reply

Auratricles
02-11-2015, 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by Patrick
I'm typing on a phone where and were are hard to alter. Grammer is of no matter. You know what I was getting at. I don't care to debate with you any longer your not worth it. Grammer and corrective sentences as well as the ordering as you see them from the logic you have understood are never more important than the meaning. Which is a problem logic only people like you allways have especially in the importance of greater things.
I honestly did not completely understand what you were getting at Patrick.
I would be happy to reply to you if you rephrase in a more understandable format.
Also grammar and corrective sentencing and the order as you see them is the only way to fully understand the importance of the meaning!
Reply

sister herb
02-11-2015, 11:49 PM
Originally Posted by Auratricles
If anything, you have brought a unexpected slur and caused me to change how I thought of this website and possibly of this religion fully. I was expecting you all to be accepting of my criticism, as Islam claims to be a religion of tolerance.
Sorry I haven´t time to read all of the post (bed time) but don´t try to generalize the whole religion because of one member in this forum might not be interesting about depating (which might not lead to anywhere). I am not sure if kind of depating is even permissible by rules of the forum.

If you came here to learn more about religion called Islam, then ok you are welcomed. If you had some other reasons, then good night to you and may Allah shows to you the right path.
Reply

Auratricles
02-11-2015, 11:50 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
Actually, this your comment is against of the basic scientific fact number 1:

"Energy and matter can not be created nor destroyed from emptiness."

Everyone can claims to be an atheist but it doesn't everytimes mean that every atheist would really understand scientific laws any better than ordinary people in general.

Have a good night to you any ways - its time to sleep now.
I would like the source of that quote.
Reply

M.I.A.
02-12-2015, 12:32 AM
hi OP i think you are missing the point of the exercise..

we dont need to prove the existence of god.. in fact god goes out of his way to mention this at least once in the quran.

BUT you could prove it to yourself.

..if you approach something sincerely then you will reach your own conclusions..

it is extremely hard to do and in itself is a proof of god.

because how often do you change who you are?


not sure if it will benefit you at all because proof of god implies judgement day.

i lol'd
Reply

Patrick
02-12-2015, 12:37 AM
Hey buddy I'm sure lebron James could just take one look at me and know nothing about me but know what the deal is as soon as I show up to the same court as him. Age gender who cares call it an animal instinct if that's what you believe. Dude I know people like you. And I did attack you but only because you have a sort of way you go about it. If you were to really say what's on your mind it's more like this. I know I came in here and I'll allways believe what it is that I want. I just pass time seeing how dumb your beliefs are and how stupid I can make people feel when I can prove the points I was taught from so and so. Know I'll be moving along now I had fun just messing with you guys. Now you didn't say it like that but if you could " not put it in a nice way" as you keep saying you would have. You see intelligent sincerity is not allways saying what you feel but rewording it. It's like the grammar you keep pointing out you've been taught a certain way of doing things. These things include your mannerisms habits other things. People are taught many things they pick up along the way. The way you insult people is no different. You intend it to come off polite but when you know people well enough it's sort of this rude I know this this arrogance that you hide by thinking your being nice. So me as someone who picked up on the truth of why you were here did something called speaking my mind. Yes people of Islam are polite as well but one of the worst things we can do is have fun with each others beliefs. Yes I became disrespectful but your dialog went from I'm here to understand to man I don't care this is like a game to me I don't care what your points are. Man Grammer to me means little I know it's improper but it could not be as improper as the intention you had with just entering here. It's like if you went into a mosque just flat out said what was really on your mind you would have got tossed out man. Look believe what you want no one but yourself is going to change your mind. But to these people this is there way of life not a race to them a nation but the reason they live there lives. It's petty to want to pick apart the values they have lived. A debate is good nothing wrong buts it's just the way you started to shrug off everyone and implied what you did where it went from debate to I don't care about this at all I'm just messing with you. That's not good. And if your trying to go the no offence way either hang out with the like company who says no offence but black people don't have jobs. Like ya ok that's kind of offensive. Or just don't get into the conversation at all.
Reply

Patrick
02-12-2015, 12:56 AM
Oh and please I made you think differently about the religion. Look some people are more outspoken than others I'm not perfect in any regards or as well tempered as the people that were trying to help you. There's allways different types of people nobody who goes to your class is the same maybe one of them has something about the way they look you don't like. You don't go I think everyone taking microbiology looks bad. It's just how people are. Me I'm defensive bro. I'm not an expert on islam more than most but I was raised in a place that's weird. If one of my muslim friends had problems I had problems simple and plain if some one disrespected one of my friends muslim sisters I had problems. Not debating either. I know that's a turn off and again I'm sorry to the people on here that's how I am. But sometimes man I just don't care it's a problem I deal with but it's something I deal with. I might not allways say things correctly and I'm sorry if one argument completely turned you off to all muslims because that's haram on me then bad things not good. But if you had no interest in learning at all I did nothing wrong than what I'm supposed to see through what that maneuver was and defend them untill you focus on me. See how it works. Now I said some mean stuff man and if your really a good person I appologize. But in another time honestly I was just doing my job. They would have removed me from the room but eventually I would have been allowed back in.
Reply

Auratricles
02-12-2015, 01:23 AM
Originally Posted by Patrick
Hey buddy I'm sure lebron James could just take one look at me and know nothing about me but know what the deal is as soon as I show up to the same court as him. Age gender who cares call it an animal instinct if that's what you believe. Dude I know people like you. And I did attack you but only because you have a sort of way you go about it. If you were to really say what's on your mind it's more like this. I know I came in here and I'll allways believe what it is that I want. I just pass time seeing how dumb your beliefs are and how stupid I can make people feel when I can prove the points I was taught from so and so. Know I'll be moving along now I had fun just messing with you guys. Now you didn't say it like that but if you could " not put it in a nice way" as you keep saying you would have. You see intelligent sincerity is not allways saying what you feel but rewording it. It's like the grammar you keep pointing out you've been taught a certain way of doing things. These things include your mannerisms habits other things. People are taught many things they pick up along the way. The way you insult people is no different. You intend it to come off polite but when you know people well enough it's sort of this rude I know this this arrogance that you hide by thinking your being nice. So me as someone who picked up on the truth of why you were here did something called speaking my mind. Yes people of Islam are polite as well but one of the worst things we can do is have fun with each others beliefs. Yes I became disrespectful but your dialog went from I'm here to understand to man I don't care this is like a game to me I don't care what your points are. Maan Grammer to me means little I know it's improper but it could not be as improper as the intention you hd with just entering here. It's like if you went into a mosque just flat out said what was really on your mind you would have got tossed out man. Look believe what you want no one but yourself is going to change your mind. But started to shrug off everyone and implied what you did where it went from debate to I don't care about this at all I'm just messing with you. That's not good. And if your trying to go the no offence way either hang out with the like company who says no offence but black people don't have jobs. Like ya ok that's kind of offensive. Or just don't get into the conversation at all.
I in no way wanted to offend you people, I even stated at the bottom of my post that you should expect criticism and for me to refute logical fallacies, or proof that I see necessary to, and so far I have seen nothing but things to refute.to these people this is there way of life not a race to them a nation but the reason they live there lives. It's petty to want to pick apart the values they have lived. A debate is good nothing wrong buts it's just the way you
I am not here to just deny everything, you can see I have been explaining why that does not make sense to me at all and why it is illogical.
If you see Islam as a way of life, that is your decision, just remember ways of life are not immune to criticism nor is anything.
If black people don't have jobs, or the majority of them don't, then it is sound to say that they do not have jobs.
Also just because I am taking the peaceful route by saying I don't mean offence, does not mean I am a racist as I assume is what you are referring to.
Also you put me in the category of someone who makes generalizations, or a racist, yet you say repeatedly "I know people like you." And "I'v dealt with people like you before."
I am also not here to make people feel dumb for the points they make, they chose to make those points, and so they put themselves at risk of refutation.
Also I would like to see some examples of me insulting people?
If I have come off as insulting, do not blame me, blame your own vulnerable ego because the only person I would insult right now.

No one is immune from refutation, I came here to see if anyone could give me proof of God.
You can say that you don't want me to refute your proof, but I clearly state to expect refutation.
Reply

Auratricles
02-12-2015, 01:28 AM
Originally Posted by Patrick
Oh and please I made you think differently about the religion. Look some people are more outspoken than others I'm not perfect in any regards or as well tempered as the people that were trying to help you. There's allways different types of people nobody who goes to your class is the same maybe one of them has something about the way they look you don't like. You don't go I think everyone taking microbiology looks bad. It's just how people are. Me I'm defensive bro. I'm not an expert on islam more than most but I was raised in a place that's weird. If one of my muslim friends had problems I had problems simple and plain if some one disrespected one of my friends muslim sisters I had problems. Not debating either. I know that's a turn off and again I'm sorry to the people on here that's how I am. But sometimes man I just don't care it's a problem I deal with but it's something I deal with. I might not allways say things correctly and I'm sorry if one argument completely turned you off to all muslims because that's haram on me then bad things not good. But if you had no interest in learning at all I did nothing wrong than what I'm supposed to see through what that maneuver was and defend them untill you focus on me. See how it works. Now I said some mean stuff man and if your really a good person I appologize. But in another time honestly I was just doing my job. They would have removed me from the room but eventually I would have been allowed back in.
You didn't change how I felt about Islam. I know and understand you are a individual, you do not make up the entire population. I was just stating earlier that to some people this would be changing how people thought of all Muslims.
Reply

MuslimInshallah
02-12-2015, 01:46 AM
Originally Posted by Auratricles
When I said that stuff about the Bible, and "their point of view" I was referencing the Christians, not anyone else. He was born into an Atheist family and remains an Atheist to this day. Also I didn't use the Bible as a point, I was merely correcting Patrick about him saying how if you asked Christians to describe him, they wouldn't have an answer, whereas in reality, in their Bible it says that God made humans in his image.

As to your question about where everything came from, I feel this video may suffice as the answer to your question.
youtube . com /watch?v=wNDGgL73ihY
Hello Aurotricles,

Mmm, your text is a bit fuzzy to read.

(smile) Anyway, I looked up your video. This is not high quality stuff. For instance, anyone who knows basic chemistry knows that scientists don't believe that electrons orbit around the nucleus, as shown in this video. I dislike such sloppiness in science (I have a solid science background, and the quality of general education in North America is disheartening). This video also didn't address the question of where the initial massive amount of energy came from. It at first said: we'll get to that later. And then when it finally talked about how everything started and what was beforehand, it stated that we don't know and perhaps we'll never know. But then it ended on a upbeat note about humans continuing to search for answers.

(mildly) So I do not feel that this video suffices. (smile) You know, I was an astronomy buff as a child and teen and my astronomy club members were discussing string theory and reading up on books about the big bang well before you were born.

You are most welcome to ask your questions. But you've thrown so many, in such a disjointed way, that it would take me absolutely ages to address them all… and I, too, am a busy person). So please, do a little homework, as sister herb suggests. And then browse through the threads and see if anyone has answered your questions already. And (smile), then it will be a pleasure to discuss what you sincerely would like to know.

May God Bless you.
Reply

OmAbdullah
02-12-2015, 03:00 AM
Originally Posted by Auratricles
Hello, my name is Auratricles.

I am an Atheist, I believe without a doubt, that there is no god.

I believe that these holy books (Qur'an, Bible, ect) are nothing but fairy tails woven by people in ancient times as an attempt at explaining the world around them, or as a means of control over certain people.

I have come here, to see if anyone at all can make me believe in god (expect me to refute to any "proof" provided, and also for me to point out any logical fallacies I may see).

Also if you have any questions I would be happy to answer them also.
If you think you are just and believe in justice and fairness then you shouldn't judge something about which you have no knowledge. If you believe that you believe in justice then this beautiful quality of mankind is not self -made, rather it is given by the Great Creator.

You are a student of medicine, do you pass on your anatomy, physiology and biochemistry without any wisdom, and never think about the All-wise Great Creator? If so then it is not justice.

As I said that as a human being you will surely like justice because the Creator has given you this great quality. If you are sitting on the chair of a judge then you will not pass judgment on an accused one until you get proper knowledge about his case. I hope you agree. Then how can you pass your judgment on the Holy Quraan when you didn't open it?

I sincerely advise every just and fair person not to say a single word about the Holy Quraan when he/ she has not read and understood it thoroughly.

Moreover I sincerely advise every unbeliever not to waste time because life is short and the time of death is not known. Death may come suddenly and then the unbeliever is caught in terrible never-ending punishment. One of the unique punishment of the Hereafter to the unbelievers is that they shall be requesting for death but death will not come to them. They shall be requesting, O God send us back to the world we will not disobey you again, but their requests shall be rejected. Then you shall remember our sincere advices and shall regret that why you didn't accept them but in vain.

So first read and understand the Holy Quraan and then pass your comments with justice. and start the Quraan without delay of a single minute because death may overtake you soon and then you will cry for ever. By the way I also must tell you that The Quraan is much more important than your medical books, if you but knew. After understanding the Quraan, medical books will become easier to learn.

May Allah Almighty guide us and you all on the right path and protect us all from the punishment, aameen.
Reply

Patrick
02-12-2015, 03:04 AM
Dude no one can prove god. I just meant the intelligent way you went about things. I don't represent this community like that I'm new here. I just saw disrespect. It wasn't racist but I felt it man. You didn't offend them there's a difference I was offended by what I felt was an offence to them. Yes that's my ego sorry. Man I can't explain something that you have to believe no one can give you answer your looking for. To think the way you do isn't wrong but you have to take a look around you.

Do you see how the world works within this controll? We elect heads judge people elevate stature by what is pleasing to power. Everything in society is run in a way where rewarding for position or sacrifice is all acceptable.

So let me give you this example. There's a man who lives in China and a woman who lives in Brazil. The man is Buddhist the woman is Muslim. Now the man from China becomes a succesfull computer designer. Sort of like a Bill Gates. The woman stays at home with children and raises them by the Quaran and teaches them how to survive in a tough city in Brazil. The man from China is so succesfull that he begins giving lectures all across Asia about the steps to follow that got him where he ended up. People pack every venue to listen this is the Chinese bill gates after all. They take notes and when he's not working he does these lectures on the models of success. The woman stays with her kids and teaches them the quaran prays 5 times a day and never misses fast or going to the mosque.
The man stays on his path now he's famous enough they want him to write a book. So he writes his book tells everyone how he made his billion dollars the steps to become successful in his field. His book sells off of the charts. It's so motivational everyone wants to know all of the keys to his model of success.

The woman's children have now grown passed the age of home life. They stayed out of the rough life of Brazil and 2 found jobs 1 went to school to further himself. All of the children stayed muslim and there mothers teachings allways stayed with them. She continued her prayers fasting and visiting the mosque know alone but living with her sisters or brothers.

The man from China continues to tell everyone of his success. Now out of everyone who bought his best seller everyone who attended his lectures no one reached his level of success. About 5 percent became richer than they were the rest stayed the same. But the computer designer allways kept his business going strong.

The woman passed away at 75 years old her children from the toughest part of Brazil all reached a level of success no one would have predicted from the area they were from. They showed to the burial and moved on.
The man from China died at 85 out of the people he had audience with no one showed unless they were coworkers. His family of coarse showed he was not a bad man just because he was successful.

Now these two people lived off of two ideas but both believed in the same exact reward system. They did what they felt was for them to do and in there own way seen reward in this life. The question doesn't lie in what they believed. The question lies in why so many people would show up buy every book use the entire model of this Man's life to expect they would achieve even a portion of his wealth. None did. So why in a world where people believe the unattainable every day they live and desire the dream no matter how far out of reach it may seem to the point if no one achieved the man's success the belief they had in it can be considered a real thing. Why is the woman's story not told why is she ignored when she believes in a reward system that does not satisfy a craving of this earth but one that is not of it. She was just as succesfull from many people's standards. But for the reason of today's beliefs it some how seems silly to think that when we base the entire earth on a reward system to gain your way as high as we can reach that some how there can be something else that uses something similar to us that looks at us not as the world and it's models of success does but the real purpose and it's model of success.
This is a very intriguing question. And to me as a people who absolutely believe that it works one way and to follow this way is all life untill we die is not a foolish way to live if we are here but it absolutely is if we reject the same principle that has a deeper meaning when we no longer are. The story's are the same the audience and achievements are not. 1 to me will allways be more important than the other.

See things like this you can not prove a higher beings existance. But with things like this you can absolutely prove a higher reasoning of our own.
Reply

Patrick
02-12-2015, 03:08 AM
Dude no one can prove god. I just meant the intelligent way you went about things. I don't represent this community like that I'm new here. I just saw disrespect. It wasn't racist but I felt it man. You didn't offend them there's a difference I was offended by what I felt was an offence to them. Yes that's my ego sorry. Man I can't explain something that you have to believe no one can give you answer your looking for. To think the way you do isn't wrong but you have to take a look around you.

Do you see how the world works within this controll? We elect heads judge people elevate stature by what is pleasing to power. Everything in society is run in a way where rewarding for position or sacrifice is all acceptable.

So let me give you this example. There's a man who lives in China and a woman who lives in Brazil. The man is Buddhist the woman is Muslim. Now the man from China becomes a succesfull computer designer. Sort of like a Bill Gates. The woman stays at home with children and raises them by the Quaran and teaches them how to survive in a tough city in Brazil. The man from China is so succesfull that he begins giving lectures all across Asia about the steps to follow that got him where he ended up. People pack every venue to listen this is the Chinese bill gates after all. They take notes and when he's not working he does these lectures on the models of success. The woman stays with her kids and teaches them the quaran prays 5 times a day and never misses fast or going to the mosque.
The man stays on his path now he's famous enough they want him to write a book. So he writes his book tells everyone how he made his billion dollars the steps to become successful in his field. His book sells off of the charts. It's so motivational everyone wants to know all of the keys to his model of success.

The woman's children have now grown passed the age of home life. They stayed out of the rough life of Brazil and 2 found jobs 1 went to school to further himself. All of the children stayed muslim and there mothers teachings allways stayed with them. She continued her prayers fasting and visiting the mosque now alone but living with her sisters or brothers.

The man from China continues to tell everyone of his success. Now out of everyone who bought his best seller everyone who attended his lectures no one reached his level of success. About 5 percent became richer than they were the rest stayed the same. But the computer designer allways kept his business going strong.

The woman passed away at 75 years old her children from the toughest part of Brazil all reached a level of success no one would have predicted from the area they were from. They showed to the burial and moved on.
The man from China died at 85 out of the people he had audience with no one showed unless they were coworkers. His family of coarse showed he was not a bad man just because he was successful.

Now these two people lived off of two ideas but both believed in the same exact reward system. They did what they felt was for them to do and in there own way seen reward in this life. The question doesn't lie in what they believed. The question lies in why so many people would show up buy every book use the entire model of this Man's life to expect they would achieve even a portion of his wealth. None did. So why in a world where people believe the unattainable every day they live and desire the dream no matter how far out of reach it may seem to the point if no one achieved the man's success the belief they had in it can be considered a real thing. Why is the woman's story not told why is she ignored when she believes in a reward system that does not satisfy a craving of this earth but one that is not of it. She was just as succesfull from many people's standards. But for the reason of today's beliefs it some how seems silly to think that when we base the entire earth on a reward system to gain your way as high as we can reach that some how there can be something else that uses something similar to us that looks at us not as the world and it's models of success does but the real purpose and it's model of success.
This is a very intriguing question. And to me as a people who absolutely believe that it works one way and to follow this way is all life untill we die is not a foolish way to live if we are here but it absolutely is if we reject the same principle that has a deeper meaning when we no longer are. The story's are the same the audience and achievements are not. 1 to me will allways be more important than the other.

See things like this you can not prove a higher beings existance. But with things like this you can absolutely prove a higher reasoning of our own.
Reply

sister herb
02-12-2015, 07:36 AM
Originally Posted by Auratricles
I would like the source of that quote.
I read it from my physics textbook when I was still at school. Both Albert Einstein and Issac Newton have stated it in their works but seems this basic truth of science is older than their theories.

You hopely remember that when we are talking about these science matters, they always are just theories. The truth is somewhere out there.
Reply

sister herb
02-12-2015, 08:11 AM
Originally Posted by Auratricles
No one is immune from refutation, I came here to see if anyone could give me proof of God.
We have already answered to this to you in the first posts of this thread.

As many of us have background as an atheist before, no need to continue explaining what it actually means. Also several kind atheists have already explained it in this forum to us before you.

I wish you beneficial moments with the Quran (when you have time from your more important tasks of the life for it). The first step to understand the exist of God is all yours.

Have a nice journey.
Reply

InToTheRain
02-12-2015, 11:42 AM
There is no point in trying to pour something into a cup with a closed lid OR you could say a cup with a hole for that matter :)

Intelligence or academic ability is not factor which determines belief because we all know believers in God and non-believers come from all spheres of life. What determines belief is the individuals themselves. To be more specific it is determined by what's within the individuals for Allah Most High says:

[13:11]Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves.

The thing that needs to change "within" is the Heart; not the physical Heart itself but the core of our beings. We need to desire and yearn for the connection with Allah Most High. Allah Most High says:

[2:15]"So remember Me; I will remember you. And be grateful to Me and do not deny Me."

More on the Heart:
http://shaykhhamza.com/transcript/Th...y-of-Happiness

When a person yearns for Allah Most High there is nothing in the world that can stop them from making that connection. It is Allah Most High who will guide to Him his Creation with what the cognitions can infer in the physical and metaphyisical Realm. However if someone is arrogant then they will not see this:


[Quran 7:146] I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification.Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as their path, but when they see the path of straying they will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless thereof.


So it appears that the argument is backwards. It is not God that needs to prove His existence to anyone but rather it is us who needs to prove ourselves worthy of recieving that proof.
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Eric H
02-12-2015, 08:13 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Auratricles; and welcome to the forum,

Atheists, or at least most Atheists, believe in science and logical reasoning.
This can be said for me, I do not just believe what is told to me, I want evidence not promises.
I watched your video link, they said they don't know what happened at the Big Bang, there are lots of unanswered questions. I am not sure how you find logic, reason and evidence from this video that there is no God.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric
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keiv
02-13-2015, 01:46 AM
Atheists, or at least most Atheists, believe in science and logical reasoning. This can be said for me, I do not just believe what is told to me, I want evidence not promises.
Not sure who typed this as I haven't read the entire thread but this caught my eye. So you don't believe in any God because you don't want to believe in something that is simply told to you, but ironically, your beliefs are based on what other people tell you anyways, isn't it? ^o)
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sister herb
02-13-2015, 07:48 AM
Originally Posted by keiv
Not sure who typed this as I haven't read the entire thread but this caught my eye. So you don't believe in any God because you don't want to believe in something that is simply told to you, but ironically, your beliefs are based on what other people tell you anyways, isn't it? ^o)
He seems to believe when someone gives to him certain types of evidences - but they must come from the physics, chemistry or mathematics books only. Many people seems to "trust" the evidences and explaining of the scientist - even though they would not really understand even a half what those scientist are speaking. But it sounds scientific, so it must be reliable and true.

But still - it is what other people have told to him. Every atheists should to be scientics by themselves, as avoiding situation that someone else tells to them those matters. But we know that many scientics too believe the God and have understood the exist of Him.
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Patrick
02-13-2015, 12:26 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
He seems to believe when someone gives to him certain types of evidences - but they must come from the physics, chemistry or mathematics books only. Many people seems to "trust" the evidences and explaining of the scientist - even though they would not really understand even a half what those scientist are speaking. But it sounds scientific, so it must be reliable and true.

But still - it is what other people have told to him. Every atheists should to be scientics by themselves, as avoiding situation that someone else tells to them those matters. But we know that many scientics too believe the God and have understood the exist of Him.
Including Albert Einstein who spent the end of his life trying to connect his theories with Allah
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naba
02-14-2015, 04:48 AM
Assalamalecum, before proving existence of Allah I just want to ask you all athiests just look at yourself who could have created you with minute perfections, why are you thinking,how you balance yourself when you are about to slip??? Why sun and moon doesn't come together??? Why we have seasons???didn't you observe that rain water is same for all regions but yet we get variety of fruits??? So to know Allah first look around your surroundings,now in Quran there are countless ways to prove existence of Allah.eg.Bernard palissy discovered theory of water cyclein 1500s before that everything was unclear about this but Allah mentioned this in ch 30 v 24, ch 30 v 48,ch 86 v 11 of
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naba
02-14-2015, 04:50 AM
Assalamalecum, before proving existence of Allah I just want to ask you all athiests just look at yourself who could have created you with minute perfections, why are you thinking,how you balance yourself when you are about to slip??? Why sun and moon doesn't come together??? Why we have seasons???didn't you observe that rain water is same for all regions but yet we get variety of fruits??? So to know Allah first look around your surroundings,now in Quran there are countless ways to prove existence of Allah.eg.Bernard palissy discovered theory of water cyclein 1500s before that everything was unclear about this but Allah mentioned this in ch 30 v 24, ch 30 v 48,ch 86 v 11 of Quran 1400 years ago.Allah in ch 51 v 47 of Quran says Allah is the expander of universe 1400 yrs ago.edwim hubble discovered this fact in 1900s.who could have said such advanced things 1400 yrs ago.because prophet Muhammad S.A.W ( pbuh ) was illiterate. Certainly it is Allah who wrote that.
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Patrick
02-14-2015, 02:49 PM
I would just like before someone asks that broad of a question they at least take time to understand the people and the other topics in this community. To me maybe that's what frustrated me a little. You can't just go into a place and have your first post be prove to me Allah exists.

To me even if you want to disbelieve it's ok that's any ones choice. But that's a huge question to ask a group of individuals you've never encountered before or took the time to see how they thought about other things. No one should just go into a college seek out a professor and say tell the reason of everything you teach now or I won't be attending this school!

It's just a little too much.
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sister herb
02-14-2015, 03:02 PM
^^ You are right. Coming here and asking to explain something like this in one sentence (or in one post) is quite absurd demand. Many of us were looking for the understanding to same question for years. I came to islam from similar background as I was an atheist and it took me about 7 years thinking and asking and looking for more knowledge before I was sure what I am doing and ready to say shahada.
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Abz2000
02-28-2015, 04:46 PM
I believe that these holy books (Qur'an, Bible, ect) are nothing but fairy tails woven by people in ancient times as an attempt at explaining the world around them, or as a means of control over certain people.
Hmmm, it's quite a pickle isn't it, magical illusions of the mind or reality.....

Hopefully you'll study the Quran and others texts sincerely and use the wonderful gifts of intellect you have been given in order to sift the wheat from the husk.
And next time you're watching hollywood or fox news or the sort - the wonderful power of illusion in weaving/making the obvious into doubtful and false into imaginary real - wonder if that's what was being being alluded to. There's a difference between commentary and false narrative, the program to detect malware (call bullsh*t) has been released, the question is, are your faculties of understanding up to the job of brushing past the falsehood and seeing the truth for what it is?

The sorcerers bewitched the eyes of the people. Moses - by God's leave - countered it with truth and reality.

Also, with your question in mind, think of the evolution of species, can any human being actually prove that human beings came from bacteria, amoeba, and leech like creepy crawlies?
The answer is - No - other than in the womb.
However, our faculties of intellect do lead us to acknowledge that there does seem to be a process, when we look at lions, tigers, ligers, when we look at the way genes change to adapt to climate and viruses, the human immune system, how the human brain adapts to constantly being told the truth or constantly being lied to or deceived, how the digestive system adapts to different diets, and so many other findings and observations that compel us to sit up and think.


I would like to note that the guidance of Allah helps us to understand certain phenomenon without being arrogant and jumping on the false "team" bandwagon (just because the pope says the earth is flat, and just because one may be seen as a heretic by the others) Allah tells us that Jesus is like Adam, both are from dust, yet He tells us that Adam was moulded into shape by His hands, and that Jesus was conceived in the womb of a virgin and came about through a biological process, and in that process we are shown how humans come from solid suspended in fluid, then the evolutionary process is flicked through in edited scenes until the human appears, another anology of the process is demonstrated in reverse during decomposition through bacteria to soil.

And we are told that the children of Adam were brought out from his loins to be questioned even before we came here, but we know that we appeared on earth through a process, and if Jesus is like Adam, then there is no reason (in the absence of evidence to the contrary) to deny the possibilty that mankind appeared through an evolutionary process.
It is indeed the false divide, and not Allah, that causes us to cast aside our faculties of reason and to just join teams based on prejudice.
We live in a global era where we're going to have to make the choice between truth and falsehood, justice and injustice, sincerity and deceit, it is imperative that we use our faculties of reason to adhere to truth. America is not God ok? It's a piece of mud that God has created, it is not a clay idol to be worshipped or owed allegiance to in spite of God, And up until now it's leadership has been immersed in deceit.
God who created the heavens and the earth and all between will judge obama and me and you too - think.

If someone told you that water was wet and you knew in your heart that water was wet - would you wait for them to throw a bucket of water on you to prove it?

God will unmask Himself on the day of judgement but it won't give you anything extra or less on that day if you had denied the obvious before, and God sets many parables for mankind in His creation.

Think, don't compartmentalize events in order to purposefully draw a false conclusion, it won't work just as local copyright laws don't work in this global age of internet and copy paste.

We are approaching a t-junction and time is short. Think.
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Johnathan
03-02-2015, 10:19 AM
Originally Posted by Auratricles
Hello, my name is Auratricles.

I am an Atheist, I believe without a doubt, that there is no god.

I believe that these holy books (Qur'an, Bible, .........
Hi Auratricles. How many years did you spend in the study of scripture, related history and archaeology, and subjects like Bible prophecy and the fulfillment and even mathematical precision thereof, before drawing your conclusion that follows?

Originally Posted by Auratricles
........ ect) are nothing but fairy tails woven by people in ancient times as an attempt at explaining the world around them, or as a means of control over certain people.

I have come here, to see if anyone at all can make me believe in god (expect me to refute to any "proof" provided, and also for me to point out any logical fallacies I may see).

Also if you have any questions I would be happy to answer them also.
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Abz2000
03-02-2015, 04:08 PM
Hi Auratricles. How many years did you spend in the study of scripture, related history and archaeology, and subjects like Bible prophecy and the fulfillment and even mathematical precision thereof, before drawing your conclusion that follows?
Not much of an argument since we know that most Prophets had a very basic scholastic education, and so did their companions/disciples.

Mostly it comes down to using the brain sincerely and truthfully although the education is highly useful - unless it's false conditioning.

You can sometimes fool a lawyer but not a boy on the street.

The reason why most jews got duped by their priests when jesus came is becuase they were told they didn't have the authority to question the doctrines which jesus was taking apart, the cheeky doctors of law even asked Jesus on whose authority he preached (something they couldn't have logically asked if he had a degree).

It is recorded that when Gabriel (as) came to Muhammad (pbuh), he said

"iqra" which is translated as: "READ"

his reply is recorded as:
ma ana bi qari’in*
Which has three possible meanings;‘
I am not a reader’,
*‘I do not read’*
and*‘I will not read’.


I would advise you to read "the king's new clothes",
It's highly educational.
It took a child to call the constructed bs.

10For the LORD hath poured out upon you the spirit of deep sleep, and hath closed your eyes: the prophets and your rulers, the seers hath he covered.

11And the vision of all is become unto you as the words of a book that is sealed, which*men*deliver to one that is learned, saying, Read this, I pray thee: and he saith, I cannot; for it*is*sealed:*

12And the book is delivered to him that is not learned, saying,
Read this, I pray thee:
and he saith, I am not learned.

13Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near*me*with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

14Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people,*even*a marvellous work and a wonder:
For the wisdom of their wise*men*shall perish,
And the understanding of their prudent*men*shall be hid.

15Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the LORD, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
16Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter's clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not? or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?
Isaiah 29:10-16


1.*Whatever is in the heavens and on earth, doth declare the Praises and Glory of Allah,- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Exalted in Might, the Wise.

2.*It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered an apostle from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom,- although they had been, before, in manifest error;-

3.*As well as (to confer all these benefits upon) others of them, who have not already joined them: And He is exalted in Might, Wise.

4.*Such is the Bounty of Allah, which He bestows on whom He will: and Allah is the Lord of the highest bounty.
5.*The similitude of those who were charged with the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, but who subsequently failed in those (obligations), is that of a donkey which carries huge tomes (but understands them not). Evil is the similitude of people who falsify the Signs of Allah. and Allah guides not an unjust nation.
Surah 62. The Congregation, Friday
Verses 1-5
These people were illiterate, but they weren't stupid or willfully blinded by greed, they had or developed sincerity and humility, and they used the brains that God gave them to see truth from falsehood and error.
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Johnathan
03-02-2015, 06:29 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
Not much of an argument since we know that most Prophets had a very basic scholastic education, and so did their companions/disciples.
Which isn't really relevant (at least from a Christian perspective), since we recognize the prophets weren't writing on their own behalf, but rather were inspired by God to write what they wrote.
So their educational background didn't matter (though many were well educated).

I have found that the question I asked is a very good one to ask of atheists, since nearly every time I have asked it, the answer is invariably that they have spent little to no time in the study of scripture, related history, archaeology, or fulfilled Bible prophecy and the mathematical precision thereof.

So the obvious question that follows is: How many other subjects are they so firmly decided about and committed to, while insisting on self-admitted, self-imposed, abject ignorance to the very thing they are expressing an opinion about!
As he put it:

I believe without a doubt, that there is no god.
Only by strict definition is atheism less of a religion than any others and perhaps it is even more so since atheists, as contrasted to most people of faith, almost universally operate on pure blind faith in their DISbelief. They even indoctrinate each other into uniform, and what become inviolable beliefs, that they parade around as truth when it isn't.

Even while the atheist that logged in here for example, thinks it's perfectly reasonable to believe that everything came from nothing!
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sister herb
03-03-2015, 09:45 AM
Interesting thing with those atheists is that their believing starts from the exist of God. They decide to believe there is not the God. They say that here is no scientific proof how to prove that the God exists and then they start to looking for scientific proof for it.

Even at this stage, they testify against themselves.
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greenhill
03-04-2015, 05:10 AM
Hi Auraticles,



Originally Posted by Auratricles
It doesn't take a genius to write a book like the Bible or Qur'an or any other holy book.
Not possible. Wherever a human being attempts it, it will be filled with flaws. Scientology, is it a growing belief? If you take a look a the Quran in a bit more detail, you will see many things (not necessarily just the message) that is incorporated into the text as a safe guard which is impossible to achieve as human. How many statements put in the verses of the Quran which had no scientific basis back then is only proven in recent times (when we had the technology to discover it). No, it is not a possible for human to reproduce such script.

Originally Posted by Auratricles
Also, if he is this higher all knowing intelligence that made us all, then why can't we have just been born with the knowledge, he knows what we'll do since he's all knowing, so why did he put us here.

On this note, let me put it in a simpler way. If it was to be said, "Do this and it may auger well for you" (the emphasis is so that you can choose) you then weigh the situation and make that decision (your choice) whether or not to do it. Now, it could be said, "Do this if not you die tomorrow!" there is no longer any contemplative stage for you. The decision is pretty much made. You do it, if not you die tomorrow. Where is the choice?

So if God made Himself apparent for all, in reality then, we are not given choice (or free will), it will not be about reflection and discovery, and us making that choice. It is pretty much forced onto us to accept it.

People say hes here to test us, well guess what, he knows what's going to happen, so why does he need to test us?
Originally Posted by Auratricles
I came here to see if anyone could give me proof of God.
You see, to say that He Knows what is going to happen, we really cannot put ourselves in the same league of understanding. If we can put down the probabilities of all our actions and consequences then we would also know the end result for us if we were to take a certain course of action and also if we were to take another course of action or even no action at all. But of course we cannot have the infinite list of possibilities (not the same predicament for Allah swt). The fact that Allah is All Knowing, then does not negate the fact that we still have to make that choice!

When Allah said to the angels that He was going to place a viceroy on Earth, He knew that Adam would have to make a decision. When Adam does make that decision, it will mark the time that Adam is ready to be placed on Earth. So, Allah left him alone to 'grow' and build up his understanding before he finally made that decision. Allah neither urged him nor refrained him. All He said was 'approach not this tree...' which Adam (pbuh) decided that it was OK to do so. That was his choice.

So now, here we are, with free will to make a choice (which Allah will leave entirely up to the individual) because we can see from the past stories that people will choose for themselves what they want to believe (I think some examples have been given above, but I'll give other(s)). Jesus had (at the request of some) a table spread with food from heaven to prove the existence of Allah, some ate from it and became believers, yet others still refused. Or the story of the she-camel coming out of a rock and immediately giving birth to a young, again to prove but still those who requested for the specific miracle refused to belief and killed the she camel.

That is the strength of the individual's choice. In the end, we cannot blame it on Allah because if we want to find the truth, we could (without the need of miracles) if we want to deny the truth, whatever miracles happen, we will still be blind to it.


:peace:
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Lavitz
03-04-2015, 10:16 AM
Originally Posted by sister herb
Interesting thing with those atheists is that their believing starts from the exist of God. They decide to believe there is not the God. They say that here is no scientific proof how to prove that the God exists and then they start to looking for scientific proof for it.

Even at this stage, they testify against themselves.
True, which is why intellectuals in the West prefer agnosticism over atheism.
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KhalilGr
03-04-2015, 11:08 AM
Originally Posted by Patrick
He can't be proven. But there is something interesting you can explain. In science after years of discovery there theory basically comes down to 1 event that created everything to exist in the universe. Now there name for it is the big bang. And when the big bang occurred all else that was to be was. To me that is another religion. There name big bang can be called that because science uses terminology but you can very easily put a term on it that calls "big bang" God, Creator, or Allah. To me they believe in one creator it is no different. The only difference is how much longer it took them to start to believe that one thing created the universe than it took the believers from the books. Atheism is just another religion to me with other explanations of our origins. You can just say we discovered that first.
So, you say God was that Big Bang? Sure, there's just one little tiny difference. You see, in the case of the Big Bang, we know where it originated from, you know, the small hot dense ball with infinite mass and infinite density, as for the case of God, we know absolute crap about its source or for how long it existed and such information (speaking of it theoratically of course, as there is no evidence that proves such entity exists). Atheism is also not a religion.


Originally Posted by Patrick
Allah said I will let you take forever to try to find out the depths of me and you will need longer still.
Sure, it will take us years to finally have the enough technology to discover and understand our universe, but I mean, if we made the Hubble Telescope that is now still exploring our not only solar system, but the Milky Way galaxy (and has taken several photos of other galaxies such as NGC4424; SDSS J1038 and SDSS 4849), then I can estimate that in the next 100 years, we can have the technology to go beyond galaxies and begin exploring our universe. And if the multiverse theory is correct, I'm sure we'll have the technology to exit our universe and access other universes (even though it'll be hard, as nothing can exit a universe, not even light, but as time goes by, science advances).
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sister herb
03-04-2015, 11:38 AM
Study of the universe and believing the God are not mutually exclusive. I don´t know why so many atheists start to compare these two things. Seems like many read few scientific books and *bing!* get idea to their minds: there is no God! That´s odd. I too am interesting universe and outer space matters and read about them but I don´t try to looking for the Allah from behind the Saturnus.
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Lavitz
03-05-2015, 08:16 AM
Sure, it will take us years to finally have the enough technology to discover and understand our universe, but I mean, if we made the Hubble Telescope that is now still exploring our not only solar system, but the Milky Way galaxy (and has taken several photos of other galaxies such as NGC4424; SDSS J1038 and SDSS 4849), then I can estimate that in the next 100 years, we can have the technology to go beyond galaxies and begin exploring our universe. And if the multiverse theory is correct, I'm sure we'll have the technology to exit our universe and access other universes (even though it'll be hard, as nothing can exit a universe, not even light, but as time goes by, science advances).
I think you have too much faith in the science community. Scientists can't figure out how water got on earth, to assume that they will "soon" have the ability to figure out the origin of everything is farfetched.
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sister herb
03-05-2015, 08:46 AM
Originally Posted by Lavitz
Scientists can't figure out how water got on earth,
Actually, they can.

Reading scientific books (and the Quran) is not a bad idea. :D
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G8R
03-05-2015, 11:00 AM
Originally Posted by Auratricles
Hello, my name is Auratricles.

I am an Atheist, I believe without a doubt, that there is no god.

I believe that these holy books (Qur'an, Bible, ect) are nothing but fairy tails woven by people in ancient times as an attempt at explaining the world around them, or as a means of control over certain people.

I have come here, to see if anyone at all can make me believe in god (expect me to refute to any "proof" provided, and also for me to point out any logical fallacies I may see).

Also if you have any questions I would be happy to answer them also.
Hello,
It would probably be better to browse past threads in the comparative religion section and post responses to threads there. You may learn more about the intricacies of the arguments that way.
Good Luck.
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Lavitz
03-05-2015, 11:30 AM
Actually, they can.

Reading scientific books (and the Quran) is not a bad idea. :D
Care to elaborate on that?
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sister herb
03-05-2015, 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by Lavitz
Care to elaborate on that?
I mean that here is no problem to be aware about scientific matters. The scientific facts and religion are not mutually exclusive things - unlike most of the atheists like to claim.

Your claim "Scientists can't figure out how water got on earth" sounds quite strange. Where did you have found kind of idea? Ok, off topic I think. :nervous:
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Lavitz
03-06-2015, 11:53 PM
^ Sure, this is somewhat off-topic, but it deserves a couple of sentences I think. =)

Scientists are pretty clear that they do not know for certain how water got on earth. On theory was that it was comets that brought water to earth. You can find an article on BBC that includes the following:

Scientists have dealt a blow to the theory that most water on Earth came from comets. Results from Europe's Rosetta mission, which made history by landing on Comet 67P in November, shows the water on the icy mass is unlike that on our planet.

This experiment occurred only three month ago.

So, as I was saying:

Scientists can't figure out how water got on earth, to assume that they will "soon" have the ability to figure out the origin of everything is farfetched.
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sister herb
03-07-2015, 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by Lavitz
^ Sure, this is somewhat off-topic, but it deserves a couple of sentences I think. =)

Scientists are pretty clear that they do not know for certain how water got on earth. On theory was that it was comets that brought water to earth. You can find an article on BBC that includes the following:

Scientists have dealt a blow to the theory that most water on Earth came from comets. Results from Europe's Rosetta mission, which made history by landing on Comet 67P in November, shows the water on the icy mass is unlike that on our planet.

This experiment occurred only three month ago.

So, as I was saying:

Scientists can't figure out how water got on earth, to assume that they will "soon" have the ability to figure out the origin of everything is farfetched.
Hmmm http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...vesta-science/

The rest of the story is oxygen and hydrogen atoms.
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Vlad
05-18-2015, 07:09 PM
Many animals, including humans, acquired essential 'foreign' genes from microorganisms co-habiting their environment in ancient times, according to research published in the open access journal Genome Biology. The study challenges conventional views that animal evolution relies solely on genes passed down through ancestral lines, suggesting that, at least in some lineages, the process is still ongoing.
The transfer of genes between organisms living in the same environment is known as horizontal gene transfer (HGT). It is well known in single-celled organisms and thought to be an important process that explains how quickly bacteria evolve, for example, resistance to antibiotics.

genomebiology-com-2015-16-1-50
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Vlad
05-18-2015, 07:11 PM
Again genomebiology:

The researchers studied the genomes of 12 species of Drosophila or fruit fly, four species of nematode worm, and 10 species of primate, including humans. They calculated how well each of their genes aligns to similar genes in other species to estimate how likely they were to be foreign in origin. By comparing with other groups of species, they were able to estimate how long ago the genes were likely to have been acquired.
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Vlad
05-18-2015, 07:15 PM
And no, they do not represent lack of function:
Some of those genes were involved in lipid metabolism, including the breakdown of fatty acids and the formation of glycolipids. Others were involved in immune responses, including the inflammatory response, immune cell signalling, and antimicrobial responses, while further gene categories include amino-acid metabolism, protein modification and antioxidant activities.

So what are they? Technical paper tries to explain this data through HGT:
The acquisition of genes from an organism other than a direct ancestor (that is, horizontal gene transfer (HGT) also called lateral gene transfer) is well known in bacteria and unicellular eukaryotes, where it plays an important role in evolution, with recent estimates suggesting that on average 81% of prokaryotic genes have been involved in HGT at some point. However, relatively few cases have been documented in multicellular organisms.

Why oh why you would document HGT in a multicellular organism?

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Vlad
05-18-2015, 07:18 PM
Long story short:

They(atheist bigots) take a gene, sequence it, and then try to match the gene to other species thought to be closely related. If the gene doesn't align with genes from closely related species, they assume it's of "foreign origin."For them, it simply means finding a gene that contradicts the phylogeny. Under their evolutionary mindset, such severe phylogenetic conflict is not taken as evidence that something is wrong with the hypothesis of common ancestry.

They say "HGT" or "foreign genes," but at base all that really means is "genes that conflict with the phylogeny."
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Vlad
05-18-2015, 07:23 PM
Certain birds and humans use the same genes for vocalization but those genetic abilities are absent in non-human primates and birds without vocal learning? If not derived from a common ancestor, as they clearly were not, how did the genes get there?

www-sciencedaily.com-releases-2014-12-141211142429-htm
www-sciencemag-org-content-346-6215-1256846-full-pdf
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whosebob
06-25-2015, 03:08 PM
The next time you look at orange take some time to study it. After you take off the covering, look at the juicy fruit inside. The fruit is segmented. This makes it easier to eat plus you can share it with family and friends. This is God’s mercy. It could have been just been a Squishy ball of fruit yet God created it as sign for people. So the next time you eat an orange just know that God loves you and wants the best for you. Oranges are everywhere so don’t forget to take the time to ponder about it. An orange can really be deep to the right person :)

The network of veins on the orange helps keep it strong. This technology is used in bridges and bones mashallah.

Allah also made it possible for sceintist to remove the seed from the orange. This is also a mercy since he made it evens more easier to eat mashallah. So he is the Most merciful and He cares mashallah.
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Scimitar
06-25-2015, 04:54 PM
Peppers have four chambers - like the heart has four chambers, peppers are good for the heart.

The carrot has an iris running thru it - the carrot is good for the eyes.

The fig is shaped like the stomach - figs are good for stomach and digestions.

We carry on like this

Signs for those who contemplate and reflect - not for the ignorant nor the arrogant - but those who seek to "Know".

Scimi
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Abz2000
06-25-2015, 09:49 PM
Now that you mention oranges, did you know that the inside of an orange peel removes blood and pus like a suction machine, adds vitamin C helping to heal the skin faster, and doesn't have all the negative bacterial effects of inanimate bandages?

SubhanAllah.
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Mahir Adnan
02-13-2018, 01:27 PM
It is greater for a thing to exist in the mind and in reality than in the mind alone.
"God" means "that than which a greater cannot be thought."
Suppose that God exists in the mind but not in reality.
Then a greater than God could be thought (namely, a being that has all the qualities our thought of God has plus real existence).
But this is impossible, for God is "that than which a greater cannot be thought."
Therefore God exists in the mind and in reality.
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The expression "that being than which a greater cannot be thought" (GCB, for short) expresses a consistent concept.
GCB cannot be thought of as: a. necessarily nonexistent; or as b. contingently existing but only as c. necessarily existing.
So GCB can only be thought of as the kind of being that cannot not exist, that must exist.
But what must be so is so.
Therefore, GCB (i.e., God) exists.
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1960 the Princeton physicist – and subsequent Nobel Prize winner – Eugene Wigner raised a fundamental question: Why did the natural world always – so far as we know – obey laws of mathematics?
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workings of human consciousness are similarly miraculous. Like the laws of mathematics, consciousness has no physical presence in the world; the images and thoughts in our consciousness have no measurable dimensions.

Yet, our nonphysical thoughts somehow mysteriously guide the actions of our physical human bodies. This is no more scientifically explicable than the mysterious ability of nonphysical mathematical constructions to determine the workings of a separate physical world.

Until recently, the scientifically unfathomable quality of human consciousness inhibited the very scholarly discussion of the subject. Since the 1970s, however, it has become a leading area of inquiry among philosophers.

Recognizing that he could not reconcile his own scientific materialism with the existence of a nonphysical world of human consciousness, a leading atheist, Daniel Dennett, in 1991 took the radical step of denying that consciousness even exists.
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Desert
02-14-2018, 01:16 PM
Peace be to you

atheism came around in the what 1400 hundreds?
that darwin guy spoke nonsense i looked at his booked he talked about creation and if there is a god then why do bad things happen...


You cannot deny that Jesus existed there were prophets that spoke to us

what was life like 2000 years ago...? not many atheist...

if you think computer is a great technology then what about the human mind that built it?

try going on a day without food youll understand...
Reply

Scimitar
02-14-2018, 10:38 PM
Originally Posted by Desert
Peace be to you

atheism came around in the what 1400 hundreds?
Wrong... it's been around for far longer - but was never as big as it is now. Having said that, it's still quite a small following in the grander mechanic of belief vs non belief.

Originally Posted by Desert
that darwin guy spoke nonsense i looked at his booked he talked about creation and if there is a god then why do bad things happen...
Darwin himself said that his theory is unlikely and has to be proven true using empiricism, still waiting for that myself lol.


Originally Posted by Desert
You cannot deny that Jesus existed there were prophets that spoke to us

what was life like 2000 years ago...? not many atheist...
They didn't exactly advertise their disbelief in those days ;)

Originally Posted by Desert
if you think computer is a great technology then what about the human mind that built it?
don't stop there - talk about the One who built the human mind as well ;)

Originally Posted by Desert
try going on a day without food youll understand...
Many who have - turned atheist ;)

A better argument is: You don't believe in God - so prove to me that HE doesn't exist? And remember - Absence of proof doesn't mean Proof of Absence - A sign in itself, but can anyone tell me WHY????
Reply

Desert
02-14-2018, 11:38 PM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Wrong... it's been around for far longer - but was never as big as it is now. Having said that, it's still quite a small following in the grander mechanic of belief vs non belief.



Darwin himself said that his theory is unlikely and has to be proven true using empiricism, still waiting for that myself lol.




They didn't exactly advertise their disbelief in those days ;)



don't stop there - talk about the One who built the human mind as well ;)



Many who have - turned atheist ;)

A better argument is: You don't believe in God - so prove to me that HE doesn't exist? And remember - Absence of proof doesn't mean Proof of Absence - A sign in itself, but can anyone tell me WHY????

Bring to me the finest tafsir of surah Naas out of the mouths of sahabah

just because of this verse if you can understand it...


Minnal Jinnati wannass...whispers from amoungst mankind and jinn


I may be stupid and uneducated but today I understood that single ayah...

- - - Updated - - -

surah Naas

because both jinn and men whisper to our depomainei nerouns in our minds

the depomain neorouns turn into thoughts that attack us like devils


so they used to bother our Prophet Muhammad... I guess

- - - Updated - - -

surah Naas

because both jinn and men whisper to our depomain nerouns in our minds

the depomain neorouns turn into thoughts that attack us like devils


so they used to bother our Prophet Muhammad... I guess

- - - Updated - - -

sooo the athiest should refer to his fore mother of having white skin..

Hawwa Eve must have been a beauty

right now Im in the process of affirming im not of gog magog decent...

I come from the hiymalyane mountins in pakistan...:p

- - - Updated - - -

races tribes languages and food from diffrent decent and tribes and races of mankind are proof of God
Reply

popsthebuilder
02-15-2018, 02:35 AM
Originally Posted by Scimitar
Wrong... it's been around for far longer - but was never as big as it is now. Having said that, it's still quite a small following in the grander mechanic of belief vs non belief.



Darwin himself said that his theory is unlikely and has to be proven true using empiricism, still waiting for that myself lol.




They didn't exactly advertise their disbelief in those days ;)



don't stop there - talk about the One who built the human mind as well ;)



Many who have - turned atheist ;)

A better argument is: You don't believe in God - so prove to me that HE doesn't exist? And remember - Absence of proof doesn't mean Proof of Absence - A sign in itself, but can anyone tell me WHY????
Faith

(Oops; sorry. Can I play?)

Good to see you friend. I know I said I was done posting here; but by your leave, I would like to enter the conversation( though I have seemed to put the cart before the horse).

peace
Reply

Mahir Adnan
02-15-2018, 09:31 AM
well this tafsir is good one,I guess.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8ziAgg1Qo4
I think, you should read this http://www.answering-christianity.co...n_rebuttal.htm
and this http://answering-christianity.com/sa...us_not_god.htm

[www.tafsir.io] Surah an-Nas - Ustadh Nouman Ali Khan - YouTube
Tafsir (detailed explanation) of Surah an-Nas by Ustadh Nouman Ali Khan. Visit http://www.tafsir.io/ to learn in-depth meaning of the Qur'an, verse by verse,......
Reply

Scimitar
02-15-2018, 02:11 PM
Originally Posted by popsthebuilder
Faith

(Oops; sorry. Can I play?)

Good to see you friend. I know I said I was done posting here; but by your leave, I would like to enter the conversation( though I have seemed to put the cart before the horse).

peace
Peace be with you Pops, great to read you again and of cours - by all means - play :)
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