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Doubting0000
02-24-2015, 02:33 PM
I Have been so confused lately:( For months now, the fact that prophet Muhammad(pbuh) married a nine year old girl(it's a fact) is extremely disturbing to me. These days, I cannot do anything but sadly search the internet day after day and have yet to find a good response. I mean, I understand that it was "social norm" back in the "day", but prophet Muhammad(pbuh) is supposed to be the GREATEST MAN THAT EVER LIVED! So just because it was social norms, does NOT make it right does it? Also, is he is supposed to be a role model for all of mankind, then everyone should be marrying little girls, which we know IS WRONG! I understand it was okay in the past, but that was because no one really knew the consequences of marrying a child that young. Now they do, it is not RIGHT, and social norms cannot be an excuse:cry: Doesn't anyone understand? I feel horrible now a days, because of this same doubt. Once again, what were the reasons he married her, because it is wrong! Would any of you give away your little girl to a man 50 plus today? Think about it, if not today, that means THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH IT! I do not want to admit it, but, I just don't know how to get around this issueimsadI mean, couldn't Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) have waited a little while until she was slightly older?
I understand it was a divine revelation, but I just do not get it??? I am so sorry? Help?
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MuslimInshallah
02-24-2015, 04:46 PM
Assalaamu alaikum Doubting,

Mmm. Searching the internet for "facts" is a very iffy thing. (smile) Books are generally better. I have read several discussions in books about this topic. And there is actually no clear-cut "fact" about Aisha's (may God be Pleased with her) marriage age. In those days, people did not keep records of birthdays and events as we do now. And there were actually two different occasions. There was the marriage contract, and then there was the age she went to live with her husband. To the best of my knowledge, I have not seen any confirmation that the marriage was necessarily consummated the day she arrived at her husband's household. In those days (and even now, in some places, you know), a girl may be sent to her husband's household to settle in, before the marriage is consummated. But I am not knowledgeable enough to say what is the case here.

I have read that for political reasons in the past, some scholars tried to argue that Aisha (RA) was very young when the marriage was consummated. Other scholars have looked at all the evidence and come up with very different conclusions. I'll post an article that I did find online, but that captures some of the points of debate that I have read elsewhere (still, I suggest that if you want to get more knowledge on this for your peace of heart, that you look to more scholarly sources than random internet articles and discussions). Essentially, she may have been as old as 18 (or possibly even older), but it seems most likely that she was younger than this, but not as young as 9. One thing that is for certain: as it is necessary (in Islam) for a young woman to be physically and mentally capable of choosing marriage, she would not have been prepubescent at the time of consummation.

Frankly, I myself trust that the Prophet (SAWS) was a good, kind and decent person, and that he would not have behaved in a way that would have been injurious in any way to his beloved wife. I feel that the whole debate about the age of marriage is distorted by people with extreme agendas. Everything I have read about their relationship from primary sources indicates that Aisha (RA) was a self-confident and happy child and woman... not at all the picture of an abused child.

(smile) My dear, by all means, struggle against those in this world of ours who harm children. It is a great injustice and wickedness. But hold onto God and His Prophets. If you live by the Guidance Allah has Given us, you cannot accept child abuse.

As for the question of a large age difference between Aisha (RA) and Mohammad (SAWS)… personally, I do not see a problem here between consenting adults. It is true that it is less common in our present day, perhaps, but even today, we find such matches. And they can be warm and caring ones.

May Allah, the Wise, Help us see past the clouds of confusion, into the clarity of the true nature of their relationship.



At what age Aisha marry Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?
11/7/2008 - Religious Social Education - Article Ref: IC0811-3718
Number of comments: 26
Opinion Summary: Agree:13 Disagree:3 Neutral:10
By: Dr. Resit Haylamaz
IslamiCity* -

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When covering the life of the Prophet Muhammad, one of the most debatable topics is that of the age of his wife Aisha when the two married.
Her alleged young age has been used in smear campaigns against the Prophet. The latest publication dealing with the topic is "Jewel of Medina" by journalist Sherry Jones - a novel on the life of Aisha. This novel has stirred controversy over the topic, as US publisher Random House expressed its desire to postpone its publication out of fear that its content could spark violence.
Reports that Aisha bint Abi Bakr was 6 or 7 years old when she became engaged and 10 when she married [1] have been the most basic factor in the formation of the view regarding her age of marriage. Also, it should not be forgotten that factors such as similar practices being quite widespread at the time and the physical development of children becoming complete at an earlier age at that time also contributed to the dispersion of this view. For this reason, this subject was not made a current issue for discussion until very recently.
Orientalists who do not consider the conditions of the time period in which an action occurred and who examine Islam from "outside" have made this a current issue. The Muslim world's reaction to this different stance has been mixed. While some have insisted that Aisha's above-mentioned age at marriage is correct [2], others are of the opinion that Aisha was older [3]. In this situation, where it is not always possible to maintain a balanced view, various approaches have developed as an answer to Orientalists' claims, including those that choose to deny the reports or ignore the existence of other alternatives as a response to this view.
First of all, we should know that everyone is a child of the time they live in and therefore must be evaluated according to the cultural context of the relevant time. There are certain values that form a society's customs and when a society is evaluated, these values have to be taken into consideration. Otherwise, were we to attempt to evaluate historical events within today's conditions, we should remember that we are fated to make mistakes.
It is known that during the period when Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, existed, young girls were married at an early age [4] and that age difference was not important in marriage [5]. Especially in regards to young girls, it should not be forgotten that there was social pressure for this, that they matured earlier due to climatic and geographical conditions and that they were seen as goods that needed to grow in their husband's house. Moreover, this is not a matter just related to girls; boys were also married at ages 8, 9 and 10 and they became the head of a family at an age that is perceived as very young today [6]. Perhaps it is this culture that lies at the basis of this issue's not having been questioned until recent times. Otherwise, it was impossible for a mentality that wanted to brew a storm in regards to the Prophet's marriage with Zaynab bint Jahsh and that slandered Aisha after her return from the Muraysi expedition to not criticize such an issue at that time.
In the verses of the Quran that came at the same time, the age for marriage was mentioned and it was emphasized that children should be married when they come of age [7]. So, opposing a divine suggestion cannot be considered. Using the mentality of Umar, if intervention had been a matter of consideration here, the Prophet would surely have been warned in a coming revelation and a step would have been taken to resolve the issue. At any rate, the Prophet's wedding to Aisha took place in accordance with direction from divine will [8].

Now, if you like, putting the extremes behind us and using moderate criteria, let's examine sources related to Aisha's age at marriage once again.

1. While listing names of Muslims during the first days of Islam, Aisha's name, together with her older sister Asma, are listed immediately after the names of the Sabiqun al-Awwalun (the first ones) like Uthman ibn Affan, Zubayr ibn Awwam, Abdurrahman ibn Awf, Sa'd ibn Abi Waqqas, Talha ibn Ubaydullah, Abu Ubayda ibn Jarrah, Arqam ibn Abi al-Arqam and Uthman ibn Maz'un. Being the 18th person to accept Islam, Aisha's name precedes the names of Umayr ibn Abi Waqqas, Abdullah ibn Mas'ud, Salit ibn Amr, Ja'far ibn Abi Talib, Abdullah ibn Jahsh, Abu Hudayfa, Suhayb ibn Sinan, Ammar ibn Yasir, Umar ibn Khattab, Hamza ibn Abdilmuttalib, Habbab ibn Aratt, Said ibn Zayd and Fatima bint Khattab [9]. This means she was living then and was mature enough to make such a choice and exercise her will. In addition, the information in reports that "she was a small girl then" shows that her name was mentioned in a conscious way [10].
This date refers to the early days of Islam. For it is known that Aisha's sister Asma, who was born in 595, was 15 when she became a Muslim [11]. This indicates the year 610, when the Prophet started to receive the revelation and this then shows that Aisha was at least 5, 6 or 7 that day and that she was at least 17 or 18 when she married the Prophet in Medina.

2. In regard to days in Mecca, Aisha said, "I was a girl playing games when the verse, 'Indeed, the Last Hour is their appointed time [for their complete recompense], and the Last Hour will be more grievous and more bitter' [12] was revealed to God's Messenger [13]." This information opens other doors for us regarding her age.
The verse under consideration is the 46th verse of Surah Qamar, the 54th chapter of the Quran, which explains the miracle of the split moon [the splitting of the moon is one of the miracles performed by the Prophet Muhammad]. Revealed as a whole, this surah came while the Prophet was in Ibn Arqam's home in the fourth (614) [14] or eighth (618) or ninth (619) [15] year of his mission, according to differing reports. Looking especially at necessity, some scholars focused on the date being 614; when this date is taken, Aisha either had not been born or had just been born. While when this date is taken it appears that she must have been born at least eight or nine years earlier, the situation does not change much when 618 or 619 are taken. In that situation she would have only been 4 or 5 years old, neither an age at which she would be in a position to understand this event and relate it years later. According to the second possibility, she was probably born when Muhammad's prophethood had just begun [16].
Another matter worth mentioning here is that while describing that day, Aisha stated, "I was a girl playing games." The word she used to describe herself, jariya, is used to describe the passage into puberty. Ibn Yara, an Arab poet, describes this passage as follows: "When a girl becomes 8 years old, she is not a 'jariya.' She is a bridal candidate that I can marry to Utba or Muawiya.Ó" Some scholars say that it is used for girls who are older than 11.
If we look at the issue taking 614 as the year that Surah Qamar was revealed, Aisha would have been born at least eight years before the prophetic mission, or in 606. If we accept 618, then the year of birth would have been 610; this event alone makes it impossible for her to have been 9 when she married.
When this information is combined with her name being on the list of the first Muslims, we get the result that Aisha's date of birth was probably 606. Consequently, she would have been at least 17 when she married.
3. Of course, Aisha's memories of Mecca are not limited to this. In addition to this, the following memories confirm this matter:
a) Her saying that she had seen two people begging who had remained from the Year of the Elephant (the year in which Yemeni King Abraha sent an army of elephants to Mecca in order to destroy the Kaaba; the elephants were pelted with pebbles dropped on them by birds), which occurred 40 years before the prophetic mission and is accepted as a milestone for determining history, and her handing down this information with her sister Asma only [17].
b) Her describing in detail that during difficult times in Mecca, God's Messenger had come to their house morning and evening and that her father, Abu Bakr, who could not endure this hardship, attempted to migrate to Abyssinia [18].
c) Her stating that first it was mandatory to offer two cycles of obligatory prayer and that later it was changed to four cycles for residents, but that during military campaigns two cycles were performed [19].
d) In reports about the early days, there being statements like, "We heard that Isaf and Naila had committed a crime at the Kaaba and for this reason God turned them into stone as a man and woman from the Jurhum tribe [20]."
4. Being betrothed before the engagement: Another factor that supports the above view is that at the time when the Prophet's marriage was a topic of discussion, Aisha was engaged to Mut'im ibn Adiyy's son Jubayr. The suggestion for the Prophet to marry Aisha came from Hawla bint Hakim, the wife of Uthman ibn Maz'un, someone not from the family. Both situations show that she had come to the age of marriage and was known as a young marriageable girl.
As is known, this betrothal was broken by the Ibn Adiyy family due to the possible religious conversion of their son to Islam, and it was only after this that Aisha's engagement to Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, took place [21]. Consequently, the marriage agreement was either made before the prophetic mission or when the call to Islam was being made openly (three years after the Prophet began receiving revelation). If it was made before the mission, together with the idea that Aisha was 9 years old when she married being shaken from its foundation, it implies that Aisha was born even earlier than has been thought. For this reason, some say that she was a 13- or 14-year-old girl then [22].
It should not be overlooked that this decision was made during the period when the call to Islam had begun to be made openly. In regard to time, this means 613-614. If it is assumed that Aisha was born four years after the mission, it has to be accepted that she had not yet been born, so it is not possible to talk about a marriage agreement under these circumstances. In this case, it has to be accepted that she was at least 7 or 8 when her engagement was broken, so the year was probably 605 [23].
Here, another possibility can be mentioned; namely, an agreement of arranged future marriage similar to "cradle tallying," an agreement between parents in the early years after the birth of a baby. However, there are no details in the texts under consideration to confirm this.

Dr. Reşit Haylamaz is the editor-in-chief of Kaynak Publishing Group.

Footnotes:

1. Bukhari, Manaqib al-Ansar, 20, 44; Muslim, Nikah, 71; Fadail al-Sahaba, 74; Abu Dawud, Adab, 55; Ibn Maja, Nikah, 13; Nasai, Nikah, 78; Darimi, Nikah, 56.
2. Azimli, Mehmet, "Hz. Aise'nin Evlilik Yası Tartışmalarında Savunmacı Tarihciligin Cıkmazı," İslami Arastırmalar, Vol. 16, Issue 1, 2003.
3. See Dogrul, Omer Rıza, Asr-ı Saadet, Eser Kitabevi, Istanbul, 1974, 2/141; Nadwi, Sayyid Sulayman, Hazreti Aişe, (trns. by Ahmet Karataş), Timaş Yayınları, İstanbul, p. 21, 2004; Savaş, Rıza, "Hz. Aişe'nin Evlenme Yası Ile Igili Farklı Bir Yaklasım,Ó" D. E. U. İlahiyat Fak. Derg. Issue 4, İzmir, 1995, pp. 139-144; YUce, AbdUlhakim, Efendimiz'in Bir GUnU, Isık Yayınları, Istanbul, pp. 82-83, 2007.
4. Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Prophet, married Hala bint Uhayb, who was young then. Since he married off his son Abdullah to Amina at an early age at around the same time of his own marriage with Hala, the Prophet was almost of the same age with his uncle Hamza.
5. In order to have family relationship with the Prophet and thus further his close relation with God's Messenger, Umar ibn Khattab married Ali's daughter Umm Qulthum, and this marriage was not found strange at that time at all.
6. Amr ibn As, for instance, was 12 years older than his son Abdullah. This means that he was around 10 when he got married. For further information see Ibn al-Athir, Usud al-Gaba, 3/240.
7. Nisa: 4/6.
8. Bukhari, Ta'bir, 21, Manakib al-Ansar, 44, Nikah, 9; Muslim, Fadail al-Sahaba, 79; Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 6/41, 128.
9. Ibn Hisham, Sira, 1/271; Ibn Ishaq, Sira, Konya, 1981, 124.
10. Ibn Hisham, Sira, 1/271; Ibn Hisham, Sira, 124.
11. Nawawi, Tahzib al-Asma, 2/597; Hakim, Mustadrak, 3/635.
12. Qamar 54:46.
13. Bukhari, Fadail al-Qur'an, 6; Tafsir al-Sura, (54) 6; Ayni, Badruddin Abu Muhammad Mahmud ibn Ahmad, Umdat al-Qari Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, Dar alIhya al-Turas al-Arabi, 20/21; Asqalani, Fath al-Bari, 11/291.
14. Suyuti, Itqan, Beirut, 1987, 1/29, 50; Dogrul, Asr-ı Saadet, 2/148.
15. The month difference stems from the lunar calendar.
16. Taking this information into account, some people calculate Aisha's age at marriage as least 14 or 22, up to 28. We have not focused on these as they are not supported by the sources.
17. Ibn Hisham, Sira, 1/176; Haysami, Majma al-Zawaid, 3/285; Ibn Kathir, Tafsir, 4/553; Bidaya, 2/214; Qurtubi, Tafsir, 20/195.
18. Bukhari, Salat, 70, Kafala, 5, Manaqib al-Ansar, 45, Adab, 64; Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 6/198.
19. Muslim, 3/463; Mu'jam al-Kabir, 2/285, 286; Mu'jam al-Awsat, 12/145; Ibn Hisham, Sira, 1/243.
20. Ibn Hisham, Sira, 1/83.
21. Bukhari, Nikah, 11; Ibn Hanbal, Musnad, 6/210; Haysami, Majma al-Zawaid, 9/225; Bayhaqi, Sunan, 7/129; Tabari, Tarih, 3/161-163.
22. Savaş, Rıza, D. E. U. İlahiyat Fak. Dergisi, Issue 4, İzmir, pp. 139-144, 1995.
23. Berki, Ali Hikmet, Osman Eskioglu, HatemU'l-Enbiya Hz. Muhammed ve Hayatı, 210.


http://www.islamicity.com/articles/A...ef=IC0811-3718
Reply

Karl
02-24-2015, 09:02 PM
She was six years old at marriage. The marriage was consummated when she was nine after menses. Islam, Christianity, Hindu or any of the other religions do not have a regulation on the age of marriage. Coitus can be damaging to prepubescent girls so after menses it is fine with no health problems. The trouble is that today people are buying into the atheist moral code of everything is fine if you are 18 years old. Child marriage is halal.
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Scimitar
02-24-2015, 10:03 PM
*cough



references are in the video description within youtube.

Scimi
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Karl
02-25-2015, 07:55 PM
It does not matter what lies people put out. Child marriage is halal. Muhammad got a lot of criticism from the Jews but they never attacked him for his marriage to Aisha because child marriage is ok in Jewish law too. Read the Talmud section three on women.
Reply

Lavitz
02-26-2015, 08:42 AM
Sister Doubting, seems like you have stumbled upon what has caused confusion amongst many modern Muslims. As you have said, such an action was acceptable a thousand four hundred years ago. I'd like to add that in many Arab countries it is still acceptable. My friend's grandmother was married when she was around eleven.

So now, it is a matter of realizing which society has it right? Is the modern world correct simply because it has advanced technologically? What makes us think that our modern standards are superior to those that the whole world saw as reasonable for centuries?!

There are many moral standards that Islam preaches that we may have qualms about, like polygamy, cutting off the hands of thieves, and the punishment for apostasy. However, in the end of the day, it is Allah - praise be to Him - who decides what is morally correct or not.
Reply

Scimitar
02-26-2015, 04:24 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Karl
It does not matter what lies people put out. Child marriage is halal. Muhammad got a lot of criticism from the Jews but they never attacked him for his marriage to Aisha because child marriage is ok in Jewish law too. Read the Talmud section three on women.
did you watch the video?

In it, is a reference to the Quran in which an explanation is given that the age of marriage falls beyond the age of puberty - to the age of maturity of intellect - which always occurs after sexual maturity... on that ground, child marriage is not justified. Also, many other points of consideration for you to reflect upon in the video as well as methodical refutations to the child marriage narratives.

So your opinion would be mute in relation to the info in the video above.

However, if you could challenge the information in the video (the references are in the video description in youtube) point for point, giving us your proofs - we'd be more than happy to take those on.

Until then,

Scimi
Reply

MuslimInshallah
02-26-2015, 09:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
did you watch the video?

In it, is a reference to the Quran in which an explanation is given that the age of marriage falls beyond the age of puberty - to the age of maturity of intellect - which always occurs after sexual maturity... on that ground, child marriage is not justified. Also, many other points of consideration for you to reflect upon in the video as well as methodical refutations to the child marriage narratives.

So your opinion would be mute in relation to the info in the video above.

However, if you could challenge the information in the video (the references are in the video description in youtube) point for point, giving us your proofs - we'd be more than happy to take those on.

Until then,

Scimi
Assalaamu alaikum,

The "like" function is working again, alhamdullillah!!!

I would like to second this motion… (twinkle) or provide the kerchief, maybe.

Karl, you have stated many times on multiple threads your opinion that female child marriage* (and you mean consummation, not just parents discussing a future possible match) is Islamic, and intimated that those who disagree with you are not true believers. You have also stated that you think that this would be appropriate for your own daughters, and suggested that not even they should have any say in the matter. You've never brought any kind of proofs for your position, you've just made short statements, and used insulting words for those who come with gentler words and evidence. Generally, such behaviour is not persuasive, but given that there are those with anti-Islamic agendas who state the things you say, and that people who don't know much about Islam may be misled by your words on this Forum, I think it is high time for the air to be cleared on this topic.

So... Scimitar has thrown down the gauntlet… will ye joust with this noble knight?


May Allah, the Guide, Lead us from the billowing clouds of darkness, into His Light.

*Karl, this sounds like you support prepubescent female marriage. Certainly, this is how I have understood your previous postings on this topic. And I apologize for my original statement that you supported prepubescent sexual activity. You have not previously (that I have seen), stated that your idea of "child" marriage means after sexual maturity. I only noticed this when re-reading this thread and I found a post I had not seen before. If you want to debate the idea of lowering the age of marriage based on early sexual maturity, then why not talk about this in a gentle and reasoned way (and be prepared for arguments that might disagree with some of your assumptions- like the idea that if a female menstruates, she is a fully mature adult ready and capable of bearing and raising children). (smile) I do not mind looking at controversial ideas, but I do mind the way you have expressed yourself towards the members of this Forum, and on topics that are used by those who defame Islam. So that when I saw Scimitar's challenge, I felt that it was an appropriate response. Peace.
Reply

Karl
02-26-2015, 10:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
Assalaamu alaikum,

The "like" function is working again, alhamdullillah!!!

I would like to second this motion… (twinkle) or provide the kerchief, maybe.

Karl, you have stated many times on multiple threads your opinion that female child marriage* (and you mean consummation, not just parents discussing a future possible match) is Islamic, and intimated that those who disagree with you are not true believers. You have also stated that you think that this would be appropriate for your own daughters, and suggested that not even they should have any say in the matter. You've never brought any kind of proofs for your position, you've just made short statements, and used insulting words for those who come with gentler words and evidence. Generally, such behaviour is not persuasive, but given that there are those with anti-Islamic agendas who state the things you say, and that people who don't know much about Islam may be misled by your words on this Forum, I think it is high time for the air to be cleared on this topic.

So... Scimitar has thrown down the gauntlet… will ye joust with this noble knight?


May Allah, the Guide, Lead us from the billowing clouds of darkness, into His Light.

*Karl, this sounds like you support prepubescent female marriage. Certainly, this is how I have understood your previous postings on this topic. And I apologize for my original statement that you supported prepubescent sexual activity. You have not previously (that I have seen), stated that your idea of "child" marriage means after sexual maturity. I only noticed this when re-reading this thread and I found a post I had not seen before. If you want to debate the idea of lowering the age of marriage based on early sexual maturity, then why not talk about this in a gentle and reasoned way (and be prepared for arguments that might disagree with some of your assumptions- like the idea that if a female menstruates, she is a fully mature adult ready and capable of bearing and raising children). (smile) I do not mind looking at controversial ideas, but I do mind the way you have expressed yourself towards the members of this Forum, and on topics that are used by those who defame Islam. So that when I saw Scimitar's challenge, I felt that it was an appropriate response. Peace.
She was six years old at marriage. The marriage was consummated when she was nine after menses. Islam, Christianity, Hindu or any of the other religions do not have a regulation on the age of marriage. "Coitus can be damaging to prepubescent girls so after menses it is fine with no health problems". The trouble is that today people are buying into the atheist moral code of everything is fine if you are 18 years old. Child marriage is halal.

Sharia law proscribes prepubescent coitus as it can be damaging. Marriage consummation is fine after first blood as this is a sign from Allah that she is a woman and post pubescent. It is ok for a child bride to do other erotic acts of affection but to leave off sexual intercourse until after menses.
Islam is not an irrational prudish religion, all reasons are medical and marriage is to give the female security and a home etc.
Scimitars ideas are subjective, what is the age of maturity of intellect 7 or 70? And what is sexual maturity? Aisha was sexually mature at 9 and went to her husbands bed to consummate the marriage. She was of strong stock and a leader of women.
Here is an excerpt from the Talmud
"Rav Bibi taught in the presence of Rav Nahman. Three women may have intercourse with the use of a pad: a minor, a pregnant woman and a lactating woman. A minor is permitted to use a pad in case she becomes pregnant and in case she dies; a pregnant woman in case she damages the foetus; a lactating woman in case she becomes pregnant again, is forced to wean her baby and it dies. Who is a minor? A girl from eleven years and a day to twelve years and a day old; if she is younger or older than that she should have intercourse in the normal way, says Rabbi Meir. The Sages, however say that all of them should have intercourse in the normal way, and heaven will have mercy, as it is said, THE LORD PROTECTS THE SIMPLE (Psalm 116:6 JPS)".
A pad means diaphragm
Reply

Lavitz
02-27-2015, 10:29 AM
The strongest evidence about her age is her own testimony in Saheeh sources.

It blows my mind that people try to calculate it based on random historical reports, then prefer these calculations over her own testimony.
Reply

Karl
02-27-2015, 10:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
Assalaamu alaikum,

The "like" function is working again, alhamdullillah!!!

I would like to second this motion… (twinkle) or provide the kerchief, maybe.

Karl, you have stated many times on multiple threads your opinion that female child marriage* (and you mean consummation, not just parents discussing a future possible match) is Islamic, and intimated that those who disagree with you are not true believers. You have also stated that you think that this would be appropriate for your own daughters, and suggested that not even they should have any say in the matter. You've never brought any kind of proofs for your position, you've just made short statements, and used insulting words for those who come with gentler words and evidence. Generally, such behaviour is not persuasive, but given that there are those with anti-Islamic agendas who state the things you say, and that people who don't know much about Islam may be misled by your words on this Forum, I think it is high time for the air to be cleared on this topic.

So... Scimitar has thrown down the gauntlet… will ye joust with this noble knight?


May Allah, the Guide, Lead us from the billowing clouds of darkness, into His Light.

*Karl, this sounds like you support prepubescent female marriage. Certainly, this is how I have understood your previous postings on this topic. And I apologize for my original statement that you supported prepubescent sexual activity. You have not previously (that I have seen), stated that your idea of "child" marriage means after sexual maturity. I only noticed this when re-reading this thread and I found a post I had not seen before. If you want to debate the idea of lowering the age of marriage based on early sexual maturity, then why not talk about this in a gentle and reasoned way (and be prepared for arguments that might disagree with some of your assumptions- like the idea that if a female menstruates, she is a fully mature adult ready and capable of bearing and raising children). (smile) I do not mind looking at controversial ideas, but I do mind the way you have expressed yourself towards the members of this Forum, and on topics that are used by those who defame Islam. So that when I saw Scimitar's challenge, I felt that it was an appropriate response. Peace.
What is there to debate? In Islam there is no age of marriage. It is up to the father to decide when his daughter marries.
Reply

Karl
02-27-2015, 11:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by TwelverShia
The strongest evidence about her age is her own testimony in Saheeh sources.

It blows my mind that people try to calculate it based on random historical reports, then prefer these calculations over her own testimony.
Yes, some enemies of Islam are trying to change the tenets of Islam. The tenets are the foundation of the religion. If the tenets are changed the religion becomes false and will die. That is their objective, it has been foreseen. All the other religions have had the same attack by infiltration and pressure from modernist collectivist supporters of the emerging totalitarian New World Order, under US/UN hegemony. These collectivists do not respect any boundaries, be it nations, cultures, or even races. They have no respect for the sanctity of property rights, parental sovereignty and privacy. Unfortunately many Muslims are gullible enough or sell out to embrace the Western modernist collectivist cultural and moral precepts, so true Islam is on a slippery slope to destruction.

So talking about child marriage is a good test to find out if someone is a true Muslim or not. If their reaction is negative and hysterical and they throw a lot of straw man arguments at you and want the state to stop it etc, you know your dealing with a fake. If their reaction is calm and they say "it's non of my business, the father decides, it is a private domestic issue, Inshalla". Then you have a true good Muslim.
Reply

Muhammad
02-27-2015, 11:27 PM
From Islamweb:



Age of 'Aa'ishah, may Allaah be pleased with her, at her marriage

All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad

, is His Slave and Messenger.

Much has been said in this matter in these latter days, as some of those who do not believe in Allaah nor in the Last Day have called into question the issue of marrying young, yet the story of the marriage of ‘Aa’ishah,

is the supporting evidence for its permissibility. It is not strange that such people will defame Islam from this angle or otherwise. However, what is strange is the psychological defeat that has afflicted some Muslims, who in turn strive hard to refute these people in a manner in which they engage in a serious vice, i.e., by rejecting this Hadeeth, which is of the highest grades of authenticity that has been agreed upon through multiple narrations by both Al-Bukhaari and Muslim. It was even narrated by ‘Aa’ishah, Mother of the Believers, herself, and she is at the center of the discussion! This is the first thing.

Secondly, this Hadeeth is reported in the Saheeh of Al-Bukhaari and that of Muslim as we mentioned, so how could one resort to arguing against it with narrations that were merely mentioned in history books? Every student of knowledge, let alone the scholars, knows that the books of history are filled with the weak and the strong and give little attention to authentication. This includes books like Al-Bidaayah Wan-Nihaayah by Ibn Katheer and Taareekh Al-Umam Wal-Mulook by At-Tabari. As for Taqreeb At-Tahtheeb by Al-Haafith Ibn Hajar, it is one of the books of Rijaal (explaining the authenticity and trustworthiness of narrators and what they narrate).

Thirdly, the content of this Hadeeth has been agreed upon by the scholars. This agreement has been mentioned by Ibn Katheer himself in the same book, Al-Bidaayah Wan-Nihaayah, when he said: "His saying (he married her when she was six years old and consummated marriage with her when she was nine years old) is something in which there is no disagreement from anyone, and it is established in the Saheeh [authentic] books of Hadeeth and elsewhere."

Fourthly, regarding the marriage between ‘Aa’ishah and the son of Al-Mut‘im Ibn ‘Adiyy, then this is mentioned in the Taareekh of At-Tabari: "Umm Roomaan (the mother of ‘Aa’ishah) said: Verily Al-Mut‘im Ibn ‘Adiyy mentioned her for his son… so Abu Bakr entered upon Al-Mut‘im and his wife, the mother of his son for whom she (‘Aa’ishah) was mentioned (i.e. whom he proposed for marriage). The lady said: “O Ibn Abi Quhaafah [Abu Bakr]! If we married our son to your daughter, perhaps she would cause him to defect and enter your religion.” So he turned to her husband and said: “What is she saying?” He said: “She said what she said.” At that, Abu Bakr left and Allaah cancelled the arrangement for marriage." She thus never married him, so it is wrong to say he divorced her.

Fifthly, the books of Seerah relate that ‘Aa’ishah died when she was 63 years and a few months old, in the year 57 AH. So her age before the Hijrah was 6 years old. If we were to do as the Arabs commonly did, adding two years to one’s age (to complete the fraction of months in both the year of birth and the year of death), then we could say she was 8 years old. Then, to add one year after the Hijrah, since the Prophet

, married her eight months thereafter, we could say her age was 9 years old at that time, and this is in accordance with what was previously narrated.

Sixthly, Ath-Thahabi said in Siyar A‘laam An-Nubalaa’: "She – i.e. Asmaa’ – was older than ‘Aa’ishah by more than ten years." If we then say that ‘Aa’ishah was nine years old at the time of Hijrah, being born four years after the beginning of the Prophet’s mission in Makkah (which lasted for 13 years), then if we were to add to that what Abu Nu‘aym said in Ma‘rifat As-Sahaabah, that “Asmaa’ was born ten years before the mission of the Prophet

, ” then Asmaa’ was 14 years old at the time of the birth of ‘Aa’ishah. This corresponds with the opinion of Ath-Thahabi in As-Siyar above "She – i.e. Asmaa’ – was older than ‘Aa’ishah by more than ten years.").

In conclusion, we advise our Muslim brothers to not occupy themselves with the doubts that their enemies bring against Islam. Their suspicions will never cease. Those who try to refute these enemies by using rationalizations that are counter to our legal foundations must fear Allaah for themselves and for the Ummah, and they should turn their attention to that which benefits them in both their religion and their worldly affairs. For more benefit, please refer to Fataawa 92608 - 84343 - 82962.


http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/in...waId&Id=191627



We have numerous other threads on this topic, please refer to those:
http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1542401

This one can now be closed :ia:.
Reply

Doubting0000
03-02-2015, 09:38 AM
Okay, in my last post, the answers I got were not good enough. I believe Aisha was 9 at the time of her marriage to the prophet, because why are we ignoring the child's own testimony. Yeah, i do not want to believe it either, but ignoring the fact that SHE WAS 9, as proven by her own testimony, is wrong. We should instead, try to address the problem of child marriages. Like I stated in my last post, I am still disturbed by this. I mean, Muhammad(pbuh), who is supposed to be the most perfect man, married a 9 year old little girl. It seems disturbing. Now, in this era, we have realized just how traumatizing child marriages are, and I am highly opposed to it. BUT IF THE PROPHET OF MY RELIGION TOOK PART IN THIS, HOW CAN I STAND UP AGAINST THIS PRACTICE! He married her, when she was 9. And I do not know how to get around this fact, I really do not. What was the reason. His moral is supposed to be forever. Just because something happened in the past, does not make it right! Women have suffered by being married young, ESPECIALLY AT 9!

Just type in health risks of child brides, and sites will overflow. It is damaging, so I would really like answers quick. i am in depression because of this:(
imsadimsadimsadimsad:cry::cry::cry:
You see, it is just scientifically health harming! But, I just, I do not know. Please Answer With The Fact that Aisha Was 9 In Mind....Please...Why did he marry her, what were the correct reasons, what proves that Aisha was happy, how do we know our prophet did the correct thing by marrying her, advantages....etc. What were the reasons behind this marriage, because I am not seeing them.


PS: Please no answers like SHE WAS NOT 9, I do not want that. I am seriously really sad and I am in depression because of this so:(
Reply

Futuwwa
03-02-2015, 09:52 AM
Okay, a thought experiment. What if the Prophet did make an error of judgment? Is that such a radical notion, would it actually imply anything that matters? Heck, he made an error of judgment when arranging the marriage of Zayd and Zaynab against their reservations. Making an error of judgment doesn't make him a sinner. It doesn't imply that he knowingly acted in an abusive way, nor that what he did was abusive at all.
Reply

جوري
03-02-2015, 02:28 PM
She was engaged to someone else before the prophet did you know that?
They didn't have schooling that spanned decades to artificially prolong their childhood all of them were married at or around the age in fact even in the civilised west up to 1885 the age of consent in such states as Delaware was 7.
the above reply is as annoying as the first post. Try for some historical and demographical analyses before you write!
Reply

Insaanah
03-02-2015, 08:10 PM
I am merging the second thread with the first one - as brother Muhammad pointed out, this topic has already been discussed many times, by both Muslims and non-Muslims. The link he gave has many posts on the topic, and it appears these have not been read. I am providing that link again: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1542401, as there is plenty of material to read that addresses some of the points. I am closing this topic, for the second time and final time. It is highly disrespectful to say that our beloved Prophet :saws: did a vile act, just because it personally doesn't sit well with you. This is highly disrespectful of them both, peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be upon our beloved prophet and may Allah be pleased with our mother Aisha.

Thread closed.
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