(Athiest) Richard Dawkins: 'Children need to be protected' from religious parents

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Apologies for posting this. This article helps us to understand the atheistic worldview. Notably how ugly it is.

Richard Dawkins: 'Children need to be protected' from religious parents

Richard Dawkins has called on schools to protect children from being indoctrinated by their religious parents.

The renowned evolutionary biologist and atheist argued that parents were given too much power over their children’s educations, and that it was time to give more rights back to the individuals themselves.

“There is a balancing act and you have to balance the rights of parents and the rights of children and I think the balance has swung too far towards parents,” he said.

“Children do need to be protected so that they can have a proper education and not be indoctrinated in whatever religion their parents happen to have been brought up in.”

Physicist Lawrence Krauss, who also took part in the interview with The Irish Times, agreed.

“That means parents have a limited — it seems to be — limited rights in determining what the curriculum is,” Krauss said.

“The state is providing the education, it’s trying to make sure all children have equal opportunity.

“And parents of course have concerns and a say, but they don’t have the right to shield their children from knowledge. That’s not a right any more than they have the right to shield their children from health care or medicine. And those parents that do that are often tried and imprisoned when they refuse to allow their children to get blood transfusions or whatever is necessary for their health. And this is necessary for their mental health.”

The pair spoke ahead of their joint address at Trinity College Dublin on Tuesday evening.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/pe...-10071712.html

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Junon;

Richard Dawkins has called on schools to protect children from being indoctrinated by their religious parents.

I wonder if he has called on schools asking them to protect children from being indoctrinated by their athiest parents?

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[M.I.A.]

I think they crossed the line ever so slightly..

They ended up in the next field for sure.

The debate should not be about religion at all.. Or those atheists beliefs.

Without even mentioning god... Which should appease them no end.

Our children grow up in multicultural societies of differing background.

Why should they not be educated on the beliefs of OTHERS?

Sure they won't be as accurate as a PhD in astro-physics...

But that's not the point at that age is it?

Its about giving some context to the differences between us.. And one would hope.. Not driving a wedge between them.

Respected scientists they may be.. But they are pushing it.

Its a joke, they should try attend meetings to promote telling children Santa does not exist.

That's literally the absurdity of the argument they pose.

Now if they imply religion should not be taught to children.. Then they should plainly say it.

The alternative is already being taught. Science, math etc.

The funny thing is maybe morality and ethics are not up there and are key skills indeed.

I reread op's post and it becomes more offensive each time..

They should get of there high horses and become teachers aids for a while.


OK last point, if Dawkins called himself a Christian and said Jews and Muslims where not allowed in his school.

Then most if you would give him a boot on the arse.

Same if he said Muslim only or Jew only or white only..

So why does he talk about indoctrination?

He's hardly the master race reporting in... Although if you let him.

His ego will not say no.

Incidentally I would not put me foot up his arse.. That's not me.

[Abz2000]

The state is providing the education, it’s trying to make sure all children have equal opportunity.

Is the state an intelligent and wise person or do people who are lobbied by every type of twisted and corrupt company on the planet make up laws for it while running it as a profit based corporation that gets leeched dry by signing interest bearing loans on the backs of unrepresented people? People who are forced to accept paper IOUs bearing a faithless promise to pay X pounds of sterling silver.
Talk about taking deception and infidelity to a whole new level!

Reminds me of how Abu Sufyan and co. used to make laws in the name of inanimate idols and demand allegiance.

SubhanAllah.

Tony Blair used visits to Libya after he left office to lobby for business for the American investment bank JP Morgan, The Daily Telegraph has been told.

Tony Blair has slapped down David Cameron for suggesting that the former prime minister used his position to lobby him – possibly for private clients.

Mr Cameron yesterday sought to fend off questions about the business interests of the Tories' chief election strategist Lynton Crosby by drawing a comparison with Blair.

At a press conference said Mr Cameron said: “Tony Blair is someone who does lobby me from time to time on things like the Middle East peace process."

“Do I have to know who all Tony Blair's other clients are? If I did that, I don't think I've got enough paper in my office to write them on.”

But a spokesperson for Blair then hit back, saying nobody could “seriously compare” Blair's work as Middle East envoy with that of a business lobbyist.

In 2009, Shell Oil Co. was facing allegations of international bribery in Nigeria. It told federal prosecutors that one of its employees approved and facilitated the bribes and then lied about his role to company lawyers. In 2010, the case took an unexpected turn.

The employee, senior petroleum engineer Robert Writt, sued for defamation. He claimed that the energy giant’s allegations were lies that slandered his good reputation.

Shell destroyed his reputation in an attempt to cover-up the truth and minimise financial consequences to Shell. A penalty imposed on Shell was cut by half, from $60 million to $30 million.

Lobbying: Shell is said to have dictated what Tony Blair said to Colonel Gaddafi in order to seal a £325million deal with Libya

Tony Blair used a letter written by Shell to lobby Colonel Gaddafi on its behalf to clinch an oil deal, documents reveal.

A letter he wrote to the Libyan leader bears a remarkable similarity to a briefing note Royal Dutch Shell sent him weeks earlier promoting a £325million deal.

The correspondence, obtained under a Freedom of Information request, reveals just how much Mr Blair was influenced by the oil company when he was Prime Minister.

It also puts into question the Government's motives for releasing Lockerbie bomber Abdul Baset Ali al-Megrahi.

It was a coup that gave birth to BP. The corporation was formerly known as the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company, and was renamed British Petroleum after it inspired the CIA coup against elected president Dr. Mossadeq in 1953, because he had dared to nationalise Iran's oil.

Read more: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Persian_Oil_Company

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[Karl]

I wish this guy would wake up in a Taliban stronghold and spout this Marxist tripe or in the Bible Belt of the USA. I have no problem with the atheists if they mind their own business, but why do they always impose State worshipping on everyone. They say there is no God, but you must submit to more rules and regulations that are continually increasing and oppressing everyone more than any religion.
In the science fiction satire "Star trek" all the humans and aliens believe in God except The Borg Collective. I think there is an important message in this.

[Abz2000]

I think this guy's an Aldous Huxley fan, i can envision the plot from "brave new world" in his agenda.


Natural reproduction has been done away with and children are created, 'decanted', and raised in 'hatcheries and conditioning centres'.


The production of such specialised children bolsters the efficiency and harmony of society, since these people are deliberately limited in their cognitive and physical abilities. It also restricts the scope of their ambitions and the complexity of their desires, thus rendering them easier to control.*


Recreational sex*is an integral part of society. According to the World State, sex is a social activity, rather than a means of reproduction and, as part of the conditioning process, is encouraged from early childhood.

The few women who can reproduce are conditioned to use birth control, even wearing a 'Malthusian*belt', a*cartridge belt*holding 'the regulation supply of*contraceptives' and worn as a fashion accessory.

The maxim 'everyone belongs to everyone else' is repeated often, and the idea of a 'family' is considered pornographic.

Sexual competition and emotional, romantic relationships are rendered obsolete because they are no longer needed. Marriage, natural birth, parenthood, and pregnancy are considered too obscene to be mentioned in casual conversation.
Thus, society has developed a totally different idea of relationships, lifestyle and reproductive comprehension.

Spending time alone is considered an outrageous waste of time and money, and wanting to be an individual is horrifying. Conditioning trains people to consume and never to enjoy being alone, so by spending an afternoon not playing 'Obstacle Golf', or not in bed with a friend, one is forfeiting acceptance.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brave_New_World

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ek5vse2_Aq0

[Karl]

The best way of course for parents to avoid being messed with by Marxist busybodies like Dawkins (who have absolutely no respect for parental sovereignty at all) is to not even register their offspring with the state to begin with. Any parent who isn't a godless state worshipping collectivist would have to be a complete fool to register their offspring in any Western country these days.

[sister herb]

As he seems to be worry about parent´s influence to their children in cause of health matters (like blood transfusions or vaccinations), he should realize that many parents in the west (he is from Ireland?) whose refuse to allow for example vaccinations don´t do it because of their religious background. It seems to be some kind of fashion in the west to refuse vaccinations and "find" conspiracy theories behind the vaccination campaings.

As they are mostly catholics in Ireland - does catholic church has negative opinion against the blood transfusions and health education?

[M.I.A.]

That's probably taking it a bit too far.

The importance of education and the right to it... For all..
Is of up most importance.

It is actually a means by which people can improve society.

It may not reflect our character or charisma or role in the world but it is vitally important.

The benefits outweigh the disadvantages by far.

If any developing country neglects education, then its shooting itself in the not yet grown foot...

Bad planning.

But with a growing underclass in many places I feel people may mirror your sentiment.

I do not.

We should all lay the foundations for tomorrow the best we can..

I know that's why a lot of parents sacrifice.



vaccines are trending at the moment.

I'm against it because they contain pork derivatives for most.

I found a fatwa online, dated about 11 years ago.

Scholarly fatwa says its A OK...

It goes on to say all gelatine is A OK.

Left me a bit dubious.

11 years and no veg/halal/fish alternative

[ardianto]

As he seems to be worry about parent´s influence to their children in cause of health matters (like blood transfusions or vaccinations), he should realize that many parents in the west (he is from Ireland?) whose refuse to allow for example vaccinations don´t do it because of their religious background. It seems to be some kind of fashion in the west to refuse vaccinations and "find" conspiracy theories behind the vaccination campaings.
As they are mostly catholics in Ireland - does catholic church has negative opinion against the blood transfusions and health education?

Few ultra conservative Catholic maybe anti blood transfusion and modern health education. But their number is very few compared with open minded Catholic. My father and my wife got blood transfusion when they were hospitalized in Catholic hospital. Catholic have many hospitals with modern technology. They also have medical faculties in their Catholic universities.

I think those atheists just tried to build negative image on religious people. Indeed, I notice atheist often try to build image on religious people as anti science, anti technology.

[ardianto]

Greetings and peace be with you Junon;



I wonder if he has called on schools asking them to protect children from being indoctrinated by their athiest parents?

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

Greeting and peace be with you sir.

I Think Dawkins forgot that teacher can indoctrinate students too. And how if atheist teacher indoctrinate students that God does not exist?.

[Zafran]

salaam

They are stupid, seriously

peace.

[Pygoscelis]

Speaking as an Atheist, I am a little unsure on this topic.

I do understand where he is coming from. Children are especially vulnerable to believing whatever their parents tell them to believe. Those same children, had they been exposed to the religious claims later in life and not as vulnerable kids, may be a little less apt to blindly accept them. And some of those beliefs can be dangerous. By brainwashing children into a particular belief system, we are doing a disservice to their ability to choose for themselves. That applies to anti-religion as well as religion though ofcourse, and it also applies to politics, and any other ideology.

I think the best answer is as somebody posted above, to expose children to a broad and wide number of beliefs and belief systems. I say let them grow up in whatever their parents believe, so long as they are not disallowed to see what other people believe. I say you should raise your kids in whatever religion you want, so long as you let them see what other people outside the family believe. I do find it disturbing when parents don't allow this. That's how cults operate.

[Zafran]

extreme form of Judiaism, a KKK member, an Islamic extremists, Nation of Islam member, BNP and of course A Nazi - are these going to be on the education checklist as well?? what happens if your child wants to be one of these guys/gals?

of course somebody has to choose to "indoctrinate" them not to. Yet people still join these groups, with or without education.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

Children are especially vulnerable to believing whatever their parents tell them to believe.

Maybe there is some truth in this up to the teenage years, after that children tend to break away gradually from their parents control. I was brought up as a Catholic and left the church when I was seventeen, the reason I left was because I was constantly being reminded of all the things I should and should not do. Temptations are often overpowering to teenagers and I chose to walk away from church teachings, but I came back in my late forties, I now believe the church was right to hold their views on sin, and I was wrong to walk away.

But religion is not just about believing, it is a way of life, they encourage marriage for life, there is a role for parents and children. Religion is very keen on building communities, where people are encouraged to help each other. We are always being asked to volunteer for some community project, and we are always being asked to donate money to various causes.

I really believe the world would be a worse place without religion.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric

[Pygoscelis]

Maybe there is some truth in this up to the teenage years, after that children tend to break away gradually from their parents control. I was brought up as a Catholic and left the church when I was seventeen, the reason I left was because I was constantly being reminded of all the things I should and should not do. Temptations are often overpowering to teenagers and I chose to walk away from church teachings, but I came back in my late forties, I now believe the church was right to hold their views on sin, and I was wrong to walk away.

Did you come back to the same religion? That is what I would expect 90% of the time, and I would guess that it happens because that is the religion you were familiar with. You went back to not just theism (if you ever left it), but Christianity, and not just Christianity, but the Catholic Church, yes? In less common cases you'll have some convert between religions, such as if you had become a Hindu or a Muslim. The rarest cases are those who are raised without religion who then adopt it, and do so by thinking themselves into it (and not by some traumatic event).

My point is that if you grow up outside of religion, it is much much harder to indoctrinate you into it. The same goes for many ideologies, ranging from how people view race to how they view sexual orientation to how they view politics. There is a famous quote that goes something like "Give me the boy, and I will give you the man (thinking how you want him thinking)". That is much easier than changing the man once he is a man.

[BeTheChange]

They fear religion & the power/influence of religion because this is the only true form of liberation.

Liberation which begins from the soul to the human body and human mind.

The mind/heart is free from all worldly enslavement and enters the spiritual realm.

They can plan all they want but Allah swa is the best of planners.

May Allah swa keep us all strong and steadfast in our precious deen. Ameen.

[ardianto]

My point is that if you grow up outside of religion, it is much much harder to indoctrinate you into it. The same goes for many ideologies, ranging from how people view race to how they view sexual orientation to how they view politics. There is a famous quote that goes something like "Give me the boy, and I will give you the man (thinking how you want him thinking)". That is much easier than changing the man once he is a man.

My Christian relatives teach Christianity to their children. Then 99.999% possibility their children will still be Christians although they live among Muslims. But I do not mind with it because I know they do not teach hatred toward non-Christians. So Pygo, why seem like you and other Atheist objected to religious parents who teach religion to their children?.

How about Atheist parents who teach Atheism to their children?

:)

[M.I.A.]

Speaking as an Atheist, I am a little unsure on this topic.

I do understand where he is coming from. Children are especially vulnerable to believing whatever their parents tell them to believe. Those same children, had they been exposed to the religious claims later in life and not as vulnerable kids, may be a little less apt to blindly accept them. And some of those beliefs can be dangerous. By brainwashing children into a particular belief system, we are doing a disservice to their ability to choose for themselves. That applies to anti-religion as well as religion though ofcourse, and it also applies to politics, and any other ideology.

I think the best answer is as somebody posted above, to expose children to a broad and wide number of beliefs and belief systems. I say let them grow up in whatever their parents believe, so long as they are not disallowed to see what other people believe. I say you should raise your kids in whatever religion you want, so long as you let them see what other people outside the family believe. I do find it disturbing when parents don't allow this. That's how cults operate.

I'm sorry but I can't agree, you start your post as an atheist.

Is your concern literally that people believe in god? Because they have the right to.

If you label ALL religion as dangerous then you undermine a vast majority.

People who are integrated well into society for the mist part.

I for instance was brought up in a Muslim household.

I was sent to learn the Quran at an early age..daily.

But it was not until 26 that I actively pursued my religion.

...up until then I did not consider myself anywhere near serious..

Upon reflection it made little difference to me and my actions...

Seemingly.

So the question stands, you might be taught math for 16 years but it don't make anybody a mathematician.

You might get to choose who to vote for at 16...

And yet every government seems useless at times.

Drinking at 18? Atheists should point out the dangers screaming!

...I hope you understand

The agenda is flawed the argument seems absurd.

Children are like sponges, they will learn all you throw at them.

And yet we are all different in nature and character and manner.

Having the option is not a bad thing.. Even if you didn't know it existed.

I just read the second half of your post, my apolagies.

..I can still argue though! Lol

I'm open to seeing all beliefs.. But even with that I'd like to give children a closeted life.

...you might say why give them a unrealistic reflection of the world.

Well I guess that's why we all struggle for change.


How to achieve a middle ground is a learning experience.

By the way I didn't remember the Quran the first time round, only that I missed two pages when the teacher was not looking.

[AmericanMuslim]

He has no right to tell the schools to protect children from religion! He is not the parents of the children, so he has no legal or moral right to tell anyone what to do for their children. Religion is something that shapes us, and it keeps us safe. Without it, we could put ourselves in danger, and we would be ultimately sinning. The last thing you should do is NOT teach kids about religion. They need to know the truth from an early age about what is going to happen during life, and after life (Death and the Day of Judgement). They have a right to know! Religion is apart of life just like science, math, and history is because we are surrounded by it every day and it is what makes sense to us. It is our answer for our questions. It teaches us how to live peacefully, and safely. It IS a lifestyle. And a healthy one. He is out of line here. May Allah keep us (and our children) on the Straight Path, Ameen.

[KhalilGr]

I have no problem with the atheists if they mind their own business, but why do they always impose State worshipping on everyone.

Funny coming from a Muslim specifically. We Atheists do mind our business, when do you think we get in our worst shape? When Theists try to shove their beliefs down our throats. There is a saying that kind of fits this situation: Having a religion or having a belief system is like having a penis, you can be glad to have one, you can be proud of having one, but don't go around shoving it down everybody's throat.

He has no right to tell the schools to protect children from religion! He is not the parents of the children, so he has no legal or moral right to tell anyone what to do for their children. Religion is something that shapes us, and it keeps us safe. Without it, we could put ourselves in danger, and we would be ultimately sinning. The last thing you should do is NOT teach kids about religion. They need to know the truth from an early age about what is going to happen during life, and after life (Death and the Day of Judgement). They have a right to know! Religion is apart of life just like science, math, and history is because we are surrounded by it every day and it is what makes sense to us. It is our answer for our questions. It teaches us how to live peacefully, and safely. It IS a lifestyle. And a healthy one. He is out of line here. May Allah keep us (and our children) on the Straight Path, Ameen.

Religion does not shape us, and it most definitely does not keep us safe. If anything, it's the total opposite. I mean, what kind of danger would we put ourselves in without religion? If anything, I totally agree with Dawkins, I've always promised myself that if I were to have children of my own, and no matter what anyone inside the family or outside of it (society) says, I will give them total freedom to belong to any religion they choose, just because I'm an Atheist doesn't mean I'll tell my kid: Listen son, I'm an Atheist, so you have to be an Atheist. That's the kind of ideology that religious parents go by, they're Muslims so their children have no choice but to be Muslims as well. If I'm a parent, I'll just tell my kids to study whatever belief system they wish, and understand it better, and if they admire what the result of their research is, they can belong to that belief system. Oppressing children and forcing them to belong to the same religion you are, or be disbelievers like yourself, should be illegal, and whichever parents do that should have their children taken away by child services as such household with such oppressing and forceful parents is not appropriate for children.


He's not out of line, he's doing what he knows is best for children. I was brought up in a Muslim household, my freedom of belief was taken away from me by my parents, I was forcefully sent to a mosque to learn and study the Quran at the age of 9, I could have missed any class in school, but I couldn't miss the Islamic studies class. How do you think that worked out for me? It did to me nothing but break me; shatter me, I have so much anger inside of me that I have to take 6 anger pills a day to keep myself under control, I used to blame my parents for what I've become, but later on, I realized that it's not their fault, their parents did that to them as well, so they didn't know any better. So I learned how to forgive them for what they've done to me as time went by. After I became an Atheist, I confronted them, sure they were mad at first, but later on, they understood my point of view, they accepted my point of view.


What I'm trying to say is, as they're children, their minds are like a sponge; they absorb anything they're told, they're vulnerable, you tell them God exists, they'll go on by that belief probably for the rest of their lives, you tell them Islam is the right religion, and they'll go by that belief probably for the rest of their lives too. And here I recall a great quote of Carolyn Porco: “All the atoms of our bodies will be blown into space in the disintegration of the solar system, to live on forever as mass or energy. That's what we should be teaching our children, not fairy tales about angels and seeing grandma in Heaven“.

[keiv]

Outside of the jehovahs, I've literally never met anyone who tried to force or shove their belief down my throat, yet, I constantly read these atheists/antitheists complain about their so called experiences. As a matter of fact, what I have experienced is anytime I run into an antitheist ironically they're the first one to mock and ridicule my beliefs while trying to champion tolerance. Sucks that you have to take "6 anger pills" a day though :cry:. Hope that all works out for you.

Also, how can you call that a great quote when your religion of science can't even come up with the answer regarding whether or not the universe will have an ending?

[Zafran]

Funny coming from a Muslim specifically. We Atheists do mind our business, when do you think we get in our worst shape? When Theists try to shove their beliefs down our throats. There is a saying that kind of fits this situation: Having a religion or having a belief system is like having a penis, you can be glad to have one, you can be proud of having one, but don't go around shoving it down everybody's throat.



Religion does not shape us, and it most definitely does not keep us safe. If anything, it's the total opposite. I mean, what kind of danger would we put ourselves in without religion? If anything, I totally agree with Dawkins, I've always promised myself that if I were to have children of my own, and no matter what anyone inside the family or outside of it (society) says, I will give them total freedom to belong to any religion they choose, just because I'm an Atheist doesn't mean I'll tell my kid: Listen son, I'm an Atheist, so you have to be an Atheist. That's the kind of ideology that religious parents go by, they're Muslims so their children have no choice but to be Muslims as well. If I'm a parent, I'll just tell my kids to study whatever belief system they wish, and understand it better, and if they admire what the result of their research is, they can belong to that belief system. Oppressing children and forcing them to belong to the same religion you are, or be disbelievers like yourself, should be illegal, and whichever parents do that should have their children taken away by child services as such household with such oppressing and forceful parents is not appropriate for children.


He's not out of line, he's doing what he knows is best for children. I was brought up in a Muslim household, my freedom of belief was taken away from me by my parents, I was forcefully sent to a mosque to learn and study the Quran at the age of 9, I could have missed any class in school, but I couldn't miss the Islamic studies class. How do you think that worked out for me? It did to me nothing but break me; shatter me, I have so much anger inside of me that I have to take 6 anger pills a day to keep myself under control, I used to blame my parents for what I've become, but later on, I realized that it's not their fault, their parents did that to them as well, so they didn't know any better. So I learned how to forgive them for what they've done to me as time went by. After I became an Atheist, I confronted them, sure they were mad at first, but later on, they understood my point of view, they accepted my point of view.


What I'm trying to say is, as they're children, their minds are like a sponge; they absorb anything they're told, they're vulnerable, you tell them God exists, they'll go on by that belief probably for the rest of their lives, you tell them Islam is the right religion, and they'll go by that belief probably for the rest of their lives too. And here I recall a great quote of Carolyn Porco: “All the atoms of our bodies will be blown into space in the disintegration of the solar system, to live on forever as mass or energy. That's what we should be teaching our children, not fairy tales about angels and seeing grandma in Heaven“.

Humans don't live on forever as mass energy in the solar system especially when they are dead in the first place. God, the day of judgement, heaven and hell are not fairy stories. The whole point parents want there children to have a religious education is because they believe it revelation.

When I was a kid I too was bought up as a Muslim, but the way I was taught was pretty bad. Very little about Islam, a lot of blind recitation. When I left I pretty much became an agnostic until I read the Quran (translation) and started to research the religion my self. However a lot of people in my family are a mixed bunch from secular to religious. All of us had a similar up bringing to me.

In other words Parents have a right to teach whatever they want to there children (who loves children more?), but ultimately the children decide how they want to live when they are older. Dawkins and any other institution doesn't have that right and I especially don't think Dawkins Knows better then the child's parent.

[CalmPassenger]

Interesting post...

[Pygoscelis]

Outside of the jehovahs, I've literally never met anyone who tried to force or shove their belief down my throat, yet, I constantly read these atheists/antitheists complain about their so called experiences. As a matter of fact, what I have experienced is anytime I run into an antitheist ironically they're the first one to mock and ridicule my beliefs while trying to champion tolerance.

Atheists vary as much as theists as far as that goes. I have met atheists who don't even think about religion. They don't believe in God(s) but they don't care and they have no interest in talking about it. I have also met atheists who seem to make a mission out of mocking the religious whenever they can. Just like I know some very relaxed religious people who never push it at all, mostly the jews and catholics I know, and then you have the mormons, baptists, etc, who shout at you and hate on you not only if you don't believe in God(s), but if you don't believe in their very particular religion.

As a Muslim, if you live in the west, you've got a better perspective than the Christians do on how Christian-dominant the place is. Atheists complain about that sometimes. The public funding of Catholic schools is an issue where I live (in Canada). No other religious schools get public funding. None should. There are lots of other cases like that. When a religion dominates like that and tries to push its weight around, I think it makes sense to push back at it, in a secular and multi-cultural country.

[Pygoscelis]

In other words Parents have a right to teach whatever they want to there children (who loves children more?), but ultimately the children decide how they want to live when they are older. Dawkins and any other institution doesn't have that right and I especially don't think Dawkins Knows better then the child's parent.

Depends on what exactly we are talking about. Children are very susceptible, and what goes in a kid's head tends to stay there for a long time. If I could remove children from parents like Fred Phelps or the KKK etc I would. We all have a responsibility to care for children, and sometimes we need to speak up when parents get abusive. And some things parents teach children can be abusive. Tormenting children with thought of fire and brimstone may qualify.

Ultimately parents will teach their kids what they want, and I think the best safeguard is to have information on other ways of seeing things readily available to the children. Even if their parents disagree or oppose certain, and tell their kids those views are wrong, they should not hide those views from the kids and pretend they don't exist.

[Karl]

Depends on what exactly we are talking about. Children are very susceptible, and what goes in a kid's head tends to stay there for a long time. If I could remove children from parents like Fred Phelps or the KKK etc I would. We all have a responsibility to care for children, and sometimes we need to speak up when parents get abusive. And some things parents teach children can be abusive. Tormenting children with thought of fire and brimstone may qualify.

Ultimately parents will teach their kids what they want, and I think the best safeguard is to have information on other ways of seeing things readily available to the children. Even if their parents disagree or oppose certain, and tell their kids those views are wrong, they should not hide those views from the kids and pretend they don't exist.

When did you become a communist? Was it taught to you at school? Is that Canadian culture?

[Scimitar]

Richard Dawkins should feel shame at his lack of humanity and emotion. he should realise that parents always have the best interest at heart for their children.

A parent will want to give the best of their lives to their children, this will include their religion also.

In a world where "freedom of choice" and "free speech" are constantly touted as expressions of our socio-human development, I find it weird how the very same liberties we so proudly shout about, are gradually being taken away from us one by one - like thefts in the night.

Scimi

[Karl]

The problem here is the rise of socialism and these relatively new international socialists. They believe in no borders and boundaries. They are Godless but do have a set of dogmas and catch cries that they believe they have the right to force on everyone. These creatures worship the United Nations and all it stands for, being a one world order totalitarian secular state. Of course the rulers will be in New York and other sycophantic to the course cities and of course it will be a Zionist American way hegemony. You will be able to worship what you like but law and control will be theirs and if you will not be assimilated, you will be destroyed. But hey, while there is life there is hope. My hope is that these devils will squabble and fight each other for the power and in their destruction of each other the liberation to the rest of us, well at least the survivors.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

Children are very susceptible, and what goes in a kid's head tends to stay there for a long time.

As religion declines in the UK, children are being taught a free for all, that is all relationships are equal, very sadly around fifty percent of children do not live with both biological parents, this is not natural. Many of these parents and children are very troubled about their separation.

Religion supports families and communities that look after each other, this has to be a positive reason to support God and religion.

If I could remove children from parents like Fred Phelps or the KKK etc I would.

I agree some ideologies are wrong. I would prefer to encourage loving relationships of one man, one woman for life, this has to be the best and greatest way, all relationships are not equal. But it seems we are not allowed to stand up for our beliefs.

In the spirit of supporting families.

Eric

[Pygoscelis]

When did you become a communist? Was it taught to you at school? Is that Canadian culture?

I became a communist the same day you became a terrorist.

[Scimitar]

pfft, hahahaha, that was clever :D

Scimi

[Karl]

I became a communist the same day you became a terrorist.

I was born a terrorist as I am a Fire Horse with the blood of Norse, Anglo Saxons and probably all the ten tribes of the Anti Christ, but Allah loves me as I acknowledge Him as my creator even though I have a heathen spirit and am not a goody goody two shoes. But communists believe they are above God and spread their anti God propaganda.

[sister herb]

When did you become a communist? Was it taught to you at school? Is that Canadian culture?

What in his post was with the communism? I am a muslim and a communist and I didn´t see anything communism in his post.

[Karl]

Depends on what exactly we are talking about. Children are very susceptible, and what goes in a kid's head tends to stay there for a long time. If I could remove children from parents like Fred Phelps or the KKK etc I would. We all have a responsibility to care for children, and sometimes we need to speak up when parents get abusive. And some things parents teach children can be abusive. Tormenting children with thought of fire and brimstone may qualify.

Ultimately parents will teach their kids what they want, and I think the best safeguard is to have information on other ways of seeing things readily available to the children. Even if their parents disagree or oppose certain, and tell their kids those views are wrong, they should not hide those views from the kids and pretend they don't exist.

You have NOTHING to do with my children so you have no responsibility to them. You have no vested interest in them and I will not tolerate communists trespassing on my property and stealing them from me. You are not even my kind. How would you like it if the KKK were all arrogant and self righteous like you and wanted to take your offspring off you because of your liberal lefty commie atheist ideologies?

[Karl]

What in his post was with the communism? I am a muslim and a communist and I didn´t see anything communism in his post.

You should go and talk to an Imam. Communists burn Churches and Mosques etc and kill all believers in God or gods. They are the embodiment of evil and the antithesis of Islam, Christianity etc. Pygoscelis talks like a communist, they have a certain way of collective rationalization in their speech. e.g. " WE all have a responsibility to care for children" is a typical communist statement. A non communist would say instead "PARENTS have the responsibility to care for their children".
Communist propaganda is quite subtle, just look out for the word "We" in their catch cries or other collective words. Communists cannot conceive individuality or separatism, they can only function on a totalitarian coercive mass, repeatedly spouting Godless dogmas.
Read about the Red Terror. Learn about the horror you are calling yourself.

[ardianto]

We all have a responsibility to care for children, and sometimes we need to speak up when parents get abusive. And some things parents teach children can be abusive.

I totally agree that we all have a responsibility to care for children, and we need to speak up when parents get abusive. Children are part of society too. But I disagree with Richard Dawkins that children need to be protected from religious education from their parents. Teaching religion to children is obligatory for every religious parent. What I agree is, children need to be protected from extremism that taught by their parents, or other people, including extremism in religion.

[ardianto]

Pygoscelis talks like a communist,

Not every atheist is communist, or support communism.

[Scimitar]

I was born a terrorist as I am a Fire Horse with the blood of Norse, Anglo Saxons and probably all the ten tribes of the Anti Christ, but Allah loves me as I acknowledge Him as my creator even though I have a heathen spirit and am not a goody goody too shoes. But communists believe they are above God and spread their anti God propaganda.

Gosh, you two are a double act :D awesome stuff guys haha

Scimi

[Karl]

I totally agree that we all have a responsibility to care for children, and we need to speak up when parents get abusive. Children are part of society too. But I disagree with Richard Dawkins that children need to be protected from religious education from their parents. Teaching religion to children is obligatory for every religious parent. What I agree is, children need to be protected from extremism that taught by their parents, or other people, including extremism in religion.

What makes you think you have that right?? FYI, YOU only have a responsibility to "protect" YOUR offspring. You DON'T have any inherent or legitimate responsibility to "protect" MY offspring, just as I have no inherent responsibility to protect your offspring either. In fact I'm not the least bit interested in your offspring and I don't care what you do with them. Why should I? Me and my offspring are NOTHING to do with you therefore you have no right to arrogantly and self-righteously interfere in my domestic affairs. Me and my offspring DON'T belong to any "society" (as you call it), nor do we ever WANT to be. We are freestanding separatists and will live our lives our own independent way without being interfered with by outsiders. As I have said to you many times before, I will defend my parental sovereignty and my property rights to the death, if need be.

All this "what about the children" hype we continually hear these days in the Zionist controlled mainstream media is nothing more that a collectivistic New World Order ploy which attempts to overthrow private property, parental sovereignty and to eventually outlaw religion. It attempts to destroy entire families by trespassing into all household inner sanctums to usurp paternal sovereignty. I for one will NEVER tolerate that.

[Abdullahh]

He's an idiot. We shouldn't dignify his utterly nonsensical words by repeating them. :threadclo

[saif-uddin]

Atheism Breeds Hatred and Fanaticism,

Dawkins is a sad but classic example,

[ardianto]

What makes you think you have that right?? FYI, YOU only have a responsibility to "protect" YOUR offspring. You DON'T have any inherent or legitimate responsibility to "protect" MY offspring, just as I have no inherent responsibility to protect your offspring either. In fact I'm not the least bit interested in your offspring and I don't care what you do with them. Why should I? Me and my offspring are NOTHING to do with you therefore you have no right to arrogantly and self-righteously interfere in my domestic affairs. Me and my offspring DON'T belong to any "society" (as you call it), nor do we ever WANT to be. We are freestanding separatists and will live our lives our own independent way without being interfered with by outsiders. As I have said to you many times before, I will defend my parental sovereignty and my property rights to the death, if need be.

All this "what about the children" hype we continually hear these days in the Zionist controlled mainstream media is nothing more that a collectivistic New World Order ploy which attempts to overthrow private property, parental sovereignty and to eventually outlaw religion. It attempts to destroy entire families by trespassing into all household inner sanctums to usurp paternal sovereignty. I for one will NEVER tolerate that.

When I talked about communism I talked to you. But when I talked about care for children, I talked to Pygoscelis, not you.

[saif-uddin]

Athesist don't like it when you expose what the Fanatical Communists brethren did, slaughtering millions of people,

lol,

[Karl]

When I talked about communism I talked to you. But when I talked about care for children, I talked to Pygoscelis, not you.

If you wanted to only talk to your Pygoscelis chum you would have sent him a private message. You put it up on a public message board for ALL to read, so therefore you are not just talking to Pygoscelis you are ALSO talking to me and everyone else who reads this.

[Pygoscelis]

What in his post was with the communism? I am a muslim and a communist and I didn´t see anything communism in his post.

Good question. But I think calling me a communist was his attempt to insult me. Now that we have an actual communist, and it happening to be one of the nicer people on the forum, he's kinda put his foot in his mouth eh?

Nothing in my post indicates that I am a communist, because I'm not. Not that I have anything against them.

[Pygoscelis]

You have NOTHING to do with my children so you have no responsibility to them. You have no vested interest in them and I will not tolerate communists trespassing on my property and stealing them from me.

Oh but I do have responsibility to them, just as I have responsibility to all of humankind. If you abuse them, beat them, or kill them, I am obliged to step in. You may think you own them and can abuse them without any consequences, but think again.

[sister herb]

You should go and talk to an Imam. Communists burn Churches and Mosques etc and kill all believers in God or gods.

You should understand that not every communists come from the same mold. Many haven´t nothing against other people´s faith or their holy places. Also many are communists because they believe the fairness in society, welfare what should share equally to the whole human kind, freedom as well peaceful world.

Surely you can find far-right communists (or should they be far-left?) as well you can find far-right what ever like far-right Christians and Muslims. I am sure that out there is also some far-right atheists too.

I am sad if you use the name of communist as insult, specially if you call someone by that name with no evidence. We should avoid to insult others. That is not a good way to behave, specially to muslims. We should remember to respect others here when we discuss with them - also when we disagree with their opinions.

[Karl]

Oh but I do have responsibility to them, just as I have responsibility to all of humankind. If you abuse them, beat them, or kill them, I am obliged to step in. You may think you own them and can abuse them without any consequences, but think again.

It is good you have exposed your true self Godless one. Communist, socialist, humanist, collectivist, you have many names but you are the legion of the devil, at war with religion especially Islam. God is my lord not you and your ilk, I do not recognise your self declared "authority". You have responsibility only for yourself and your spawn. Thou shalt not trespass on me or there will be war.

BTW why are you not responsible for every living thing on this world? Why just "humankind"? Why do you not interfere with the families of non hominins? PROVE your argument that you have responsibility for my progeny.

[Karl]

You should understand that not every communists come from the same mold. Many haven´t nothing against other people´s faith or their holy places. Also many are communists because they believe the fairness in society, welfare what should share equally to the whole human kind, freedom as well peaceful world.

Surely you can find far-right communists (or should they be far-left?) as well you can find far-right what ever like far-right Christians and Muslims. I am sure that out there is also some far-right atheists too.

I am sad if you use the name of communist as insult, specially if you call someone by that name with no evidence. We should avoid to insult others. That is not a good way to behave, specially to muslims. We should remember to respect others here when we discuss with them - also when we disagree with their opinions.

What you're talking about is nothing to do with Islam. Seek knowledge, go to Saudi Arabia if you can afford it and learn from the most learned.
Why should I respect my enemies? Why should I respect Godless oppressors? Because they are many and have political power and have brainwashed many around the world into Cultural Marxism? " Welfare what should share equally to the whole human kind" where does it say this in the Quran? It sounds more like a typical leftist catch cry from the United Nations. This is not zakat what you're talking about. You're talking about international socialism and the forced redistribution of wealth globally.
As far a I am concerned what's yours is yours and mine is mine.

[sister herb]

Salam alaykum brother Karl

I am not here talking about socialism or communism but the manners how we treat others in here. No need to insult others like calling them by names (like you called other member a communist who isn´t communist). We don´t need to agree with everyone but we need to remember our manners (insulting others because of their opinions might not be a good islamic manner, right?) and explain our own opinions to other using kind words. And yes, we have to learn to avoid insulting other people too even when we strongly disagree with their values and words. What insultings tell about ourselves?

I am not talking about international communism at all, just told that not every one are made from the same mold. I am not going to burn churches or mosques, as I wrote but building the better world to everyone. I believe that islam too will help people to share the social welfare with others. Or is the kind of world, where nobody need to suffer hungry or war, against the values of islam? I don´t think so.

Also, I don´t think that I could find the best knowledge just from the Saudi Arabia.

We are talking here about opinions of atheist (Richard Dawkings), not opinions of communists. Or is Dawkins communist too? As one brother wrote, not all atheists are communists. Also not all communists are atheists. Let´s try to separate these things.

Now, could we go back to the topic and try to keep this discussion peaceful?