PDA

View Full Version : They may insult Islam. But I will never insult their religion



ardianto
03-02-2015, 06:11 PM
One of many things that make me grateful is, I grew up among good people who taught me something that very important, empathy. This is why I never want to insult anyone because I can feel what someone feels if he is being insulted.

This is why I never want to insult other religions. Because I don't want people from other religions feel the pain that I feel when my religion being insulted, when my prophet being insulted.

I don't want to cause pain in their hearts. I just want to pray, may Allah raise empathy in the hearts of the people. So, they will learn to respect each other belief.
Reply

Login/Register to hide ads. Scroll down for more posts
sister herb
03-02-2015, 09:58 PM
That is very important thing what we all people should learn. :thankyou:
Reply

Zafran
03-03-2015, 12:42 AM
Salaam

I agree this very important to respect people in general simply because they are bani Adam. It also important not to go all crazy on people because there beliefs and practices are alien to us, simply because we don't know their circumstances.

peace
Reply

ardianto
03-04-2015, 12:37 AM
One thing that makes me happy is having friends. Alhamdulillah, I have many friends, and my friends are not only Muslims, but non-Muslims too. I also have met and acquainted with few people from other nations. They are very kind and friendly.

Meet, interact, and be friend with people from other nations is my dream.

Few years ago when I started to use internet I felt I have found the way to make my dream come true without leave my home. So I started to join in discussion in internet, but immediately I found something that shocking me, Islamophobia.

I've ever joined in a cultural forum. I hoped I could discuss about culture and tradition, but there were people who used that forum to insult Islam. I went to other sites, but again, I found there are many insult toward Islam. And even sometime I am insulted too just because I am Muslim.

Meet, interact, and be friend with people from other nations is my dream. But now I am even not dare to say that I am from Indonesia since people know that Indonesia is a country that has largest number of Muslims.

Islamophobia. Yes, I really feel it, and I am so sad. I just want to be friend with them, but why they see me as their enemy?.
Reply

Welcome, Guest!
Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up
جوري
03-04-2015, 02:18 AM
No they may NOT insult Islam, I am not sure who is telling you what bro, but you need to stop getting your fatwas from muftis who grew in the shade of the crusades.
Time for this nonsense is over.. also Islam isn't about making friends and coming across as pretty.
That's Allah's religion for the world and his law, he didn't make it compulsory but if you adhere to it best learn its tenants not our whims of what we think Islam is?
What the hell happened to this forum?
It is a cesspool for shiites, sufis, net trolls and people who are so entrenched in political correctness whatever in hell that is for this week that they forget that we're to submit to Allah not our whims!
Hud [11:112]
فَاسْتَقِمْ كَمَا أُمِرْتَ وَمَن تَابَ مَعَكَ وَلاَ تَطْغَوْاْ إِنَّهُ بِمَا تَعْمَلُونَ بَصِيرٌ
Faistaqim kama omirta waman taba maAAaka wala tatghaw innahu bima taAAmaloona baseerun
11:112 Therefore stand firm (in the straight Path) as thou art commanded,- thou and those who with thee turn (unto Allah.; and transgress not (from the Path): for He seeth well all that ye do.
Reply

keiv
03-04-2015, 03:00 AM
I'm at the point in my life where I don't even care about making friends with people. I just want to stick to my deen and my family. I came to this mindset pretty much after high school, 2002-2003. The older I get, the less I want to be around other people and the less I care what they think of me or my beliefs and I'm actually thankful for this because I see people around me put trust in other people who spit on them (figuratively), backstab them, speaks badly about them, ect.. Even after knowing this, these same people still put their trust in them. I feel bad because these are family members that I care about and no matter what I or anyone else says to them, they're too weak to let go.

Don't get me wrong, I won't go out there and start mocking and ridiculing people for the sake of passing time, but the moment I get into a discussion with some anti theist or missionary, I won't usually hold back. I'll never understand how people get into discussions where one person is insulting the other yet the other person will be quick to say they respect their opinion..
Reply

جوري
03-04-2015, 03:16 AM
Except he said they may insult and I've indeed a problem with that and I've problems with muslims who think that's ok!
Reply

Zafran
03-04-2015, 03:20 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
Except he said they may insult and I've indeed a problem with that and I've problems with muslims who think that's ok!
Salaam

Many people insulted Islam throughout history, later they became Muslims.Look at Umar ibn Khattab (ra) for example. Enemies can easily become friends and even fellow Muslims. Being harsh on them just drives them away even more.

peace
Reply

جوري
03-04-2015, 03:28 AM
Umar IBn ilkhtab never insulted Islam Id urge and challenge you to quote his passage of insults toward the prophet or Islam. You confuse political dissent and adversarial relationships for the disgusting behavior of buffoons who by the way were sentenced to death for similar crimes just so long as Judaism not Islam was at stake - check out what happened to the cartoonist Julius streicher - and by the way do we need more muslims? Is it a collection We are after?
you should in fact check the punishment of those who insult from proper sources not through some modern muftis like Kerri and Obama!
Reply

Zafran
03-04-2015, 04:06 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
Umar IBn ilkhtab never insulted Islam Id urge and challenge you to quote his passage of insults toward the prophet or Islam. You confuse political dissent and adversarial relationships for the disgusting behavior of buffoons who by the way were sentenced to death for similar crimes just so long as Judaism not Islam was at stake - check out what happened to the cartoonist Julius streicher - and by the way do we need more muslims? Is it a collection We are after?
you should in fact check the punishment of those who insult from proper sources not through some modern muftis like Kerri and Obama!
Salaam

Umar Ibn RA just tried to kill the prophet and wacked his sister for reading the quran no biggie...... But when he accepted Islam nobody said that you cant be a Muslim, He certainly wasnt put to death. Its not about what we need - its about bringing people to God. Thats much more important then this us vs them mentality.

peace
Reply

naba
03-04-2015, 05:06 AM
Allah in ch 6 v 108 of Quran forbids abusing other religions because in ignorance their followers will curse Allah.
Reply

MuslimInshallah
03-04-2015, 09:04 AM
Originally Posted by naba
Allah in ch 6 v 108 of Quran forbids abusing other religions because in ignorance their followers will curse Allah.
Assalaamu alaikum,

Qur'an 6:108

Mohsin Khan: And insult not those whom they (disbelievers) worship besides Allah, lest they insult Allah wrongfully without knowledge. Thus We have made fair*seeming to each people its own doings; then to their Lord is their return and He shall then inform them of all that they used to do.

May Allah, the Wise, be our Guide.
Reply

Lavitz
03-04-2015, 10:12 AM
and wacked his sister for reading the quran no biggie
Even though this is a very famous story, there have been scholars who have pointed out that this narration is actually weak.

Wallahu a'alam.
Reply

جوري
03-04-2015, 10:19 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Salaam

Umar Ibn RA just tried to kill the prophet and wacked his sister for reading the quran no biggie...... But when he accepted Islam nobody said that you cant be a Muslim, He certainly wasnt put to death. Its not about what we need - its about bringing people to God. Thats much more important then this us vs them mentality.

peace
as I stated trying to kill, dissent, isn't akin to insult.
Arabs were known for chivalry and good manners. Even Abu jahl when he gathered his men to kill the prophet and upon being at his gates said, let's come back in the morning I don't want the Arabs to say that I horrified the women during the night!
Heres the prescribed punishment for insulting!

http://www.dorar.net/enc/aqadia/3589
think it should be a general rule that when speaking about matters Islam we should do so with evidence from Quran and sunnah not innovate- not necessarily addressing you with this comment but the OP
notice the verse from the Quran says don't insult their religion, not they can insult your religion and rather clear that it says so they don't insult yours - it's indeed a grievous thing what's more grievous is that kaffirs managed to remove the gheera from our hearts.
And no bringing people to God isn't the goal- rather saving ones own soul in true submission is!
﴿ يَاأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا عَلَيْكُمْ أَنفُسَكُمْ لَا يَضُرُّكُمْ مَنْ ضَلَّ إِذَا اهْتَدَيْتُمْ إِلَى اللَّهِ مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعًا فَيُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ(105) ﴾


:w:
Reply

ardianto
03-04-2015, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
No they may NOT insult Islam, I am not sure who is telling you what bro, but you need to stop getting your fatwas from muftis who grew in the shade of the crusades.
Time for this nonsense is over.. also Islam isn't about making friends and coming across as pretty.
That's Allah's religion for the world and his law, he didn't make it compulsory but if you adhere to it best learn its tenants not our whims of what we think Islam is?
I do not permit people insult Islam, but I cannot prevent people insult Islam. This is what I mean with "they may". Yes, English is not my daily language.

But like I've said, I will not insult other religion because I don't want to hurt other people's feeling. Every religion has extremists, but every religion also has good tolerant people. I have met good tolerant people from other religions. I very appreciate their respect to other religions. So, is it wrong if I respect them too?.

Islam is not about making friend. But Islam recognize muamalah which based on human to human relationship, and friendship is included in muamalah. There is no prohibition to do muamalah with non-Muslims. Prohibition is only in ibadah matter like worship together.
Reply

ardianto
03-04-2015, 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by naba
Allah in ch 6 v 108 of Quran forbids abusing other religions because in ignorance their followers will curse Allah.
I've ever watched video about Hindu sadhu, and I found a Muslim made long comment which insult Hindu's gods/goddess. Two Hindus tried to remind him in good manner that insult other religion is not a good attitude. But instead of listen to this reminder, he made another long comment which insult Hinduism. And finally another Hindu replied it with insult Islam.

Frankly, I blame this Muslim in this case. Before he made these comments, there was no any comment that insult Islam. It's like described in Qur'an surah 6 ayah 108.
Reply

جوري
03-04-2015, 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
I do not permit people insult Islam, but I cannot prevent people insult Islam. This is what I mean with "they may". Yes, English is not my daily language.

But like I've said, I will not insult other religion because I don't want to hurt other people's feeling. Every religion has extremists, but every religion also has good tolerant people. I have met good tolerant people from other religions. I very appreciate their respect to other religions. So, is it wrong if I respect them too?.

Islam is not about making friend. But Islam recognize muamalah which based on human to human relationship, and friendship is included in muamalah. There is no prohibition to do muamalah with non-Muslims. Prohibition is only in ibadah matter like worship together.
Hadith: The prophet (saw) said ‘whenever you see an evil act stop it with your hands, and if you are not able to do that then speak out with your tongue and if you are not able to do that hate it in your heart and that is the lowest form of iman.’ (Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim

nowhere did I suggest to you to insult them when Allah :swt: already forbade you from doing so.
i am commenting on thread title and this lackadaisical attitude toward how others treat us or view.
Only you wherever you go are responsible to change what's wrong.
Everyone else does they've anti everything laws apparently save to insult Islam and the prophet.
Sobhan Allah
i don't need a sermon on modern day attitudes of what's fine with kaffirs.
only we define what's ok and not ok for us the same way others define it for themselves be they homos or jews or whatever?
whats wrong with you guys?
Reply

ardianto
03-04-2015, 05:02 PM
I am not a man who just silent when someone does injustice toward the other. But I do not follow principle "an eye for an eye". So, if someone beat my son, I might beat him too. But I would not beat his son.

I don't want people from other religions insult Islam. But if that is happen, I would not make revenge through insulting their religion. Every religion commands its believers to do good deeds and avoid bad deeds. So, if a believer of one religion do bad deed like insulting other religions, it's not because his religion command him like this, but it's because he does not follow the command of his religion.

I feel concerned with bad habit among religious people which they insult each other. And what make me more concerned is, Muslims are involved in this bad habit too. Even Muslims now are the second worst in this matter. Yes, just the second worst because the worst in this matter are Protestant Christians.

But I believe that Christianity does not encourage its believers to insult other religions. I believe it because I have met many tolerant people from Protestant Christian.

My purpose to make this thread is to remind people to stop insulting other religions. And as Muslims we must able to prevent ourselves to insult other religions, even if people from other religions insult Islam.

It's better if we do good deeds toward the others. In Shaa Allah, it can open the eyes of other people that Islam is not bad as their assumption. In Shaa Allah, then they will realize the beauty of Islam.

:)
Reply

جوري
03-04-2015, 05:42 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
But I do not follow principle "an eye for an eye".
well that is a principle that is in the Quran and Torah before it:
Al-Ma'idah [5:45]
وَكَتَبْنَا عَلَيْهِمْ فِيهَا أَنَّ النَّفْسَ بِالنَّفْسِ وَالْعَيْنَ بِالْعَيْنِ وَالأَنفَ بِالأَنفِ وَالأُذُنَ بِالأُذُنِ وَالسِّنَّ بِالسِّنِّ وَالْجُرُوحَ قِصَاصٌ فَمَن تَصَدَّقَ بِهِ فَهُوَ كَفَّارَةٌ لَّهُ وَمَن لَّمْ يَحْكُم بِمَا أنزَلَ اللّهُ فَأُوْلَـئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ
Wakatabna AAalayhim feeha anna alnnafsa bialnnafsi waalAAayna bialAAayni waalanfa bialanfi waalothuna bialothuni waalssinna bialssinni waaljurooha qisasun faman tasaddaqa bihi fahuwa kaffaratun lahu waman lam yahkum bima anzala Allahu faolaika humu alththalimoona
5:45 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers.

I am sorry you and many others forgo the laws that Allah :swt: ordained bro. for something else!
Reply

Abdullahh
03-04-2015, 08:29 PM
Deep thread. :peace:
Reply

BeTheChange
03-04-2015, 11:03 PM
I think what brother Ardianto is trying to say is he will not stoop to the level of the individuals who bad mouth religion. This automatically implies that the individual who doesn't retaliate back in the same manner is of 'higher' status and you can argue this to be true (Allah swa knows best)!

Why? Because the individual who controls his tongue in anger and has patience has demonstrated self control and implementation of good knowledge. Alhamdulilah.

In all the books that i have read (correct me if am wrong) i have never read a scripture or a hadith where our Prophet Muhammad PBUH acted in a way to seek revenge. One famous example is the non muslim woman who resided next door to prophet SAW and she used to throw her rubbish on the Prophet SAW path to harm him SAW (narrations of stories may vary but same message). Our Prophet SAW used to ignore this negativity and even cleaned the mess (Allah swa knows best) - This angered the woman a lot and eventually she saw the truth and was affected by Prophet SAW kindness and gentle heart and took the shahada (Allah swa knows best)

So i think the interpretation of how we should act and behave as Muslims differs depending on the individual in question and how they interpret the scriptures. Even the GREATEST scholars in HISTORY varied in their opinions and this is why we have 4 major schools of thoughts in Islam.

It's okay to be different - one may react to a situation with anger, one may react with kindness, one may start crying, one may isolate, one may protest etc but we all have the SAME goal Alhamdulilah. Because we as don't have a universal islamic court system in place it's difficult to implement shariah how it should be implemented - & even the greatest scholars who have dedicated their entire lives to the study of Islam will differ.

I think what am trying to say is as long as our heart is clean and we can justify our actions to Allah swa this is what matters.

May Allah swa protect us all from harm and guide us all the path that pleases HIM alone. Ameen.
Reply

جوري
03-04-2015, 11:41 PM
Like I stated Br/sr
bring it from quran and sunnah
also your inability to apply or understand seerah fully doesn't render it open to different interpretation, rather you not understanding history and context.
Theres a clear delineated difference of folks who just niggle over trifles and those causing civil, social, moral and political Unrest and inciting of hatred and violence!

:w:
Reply

Zafran
03-05-2015, 12:27 AM
Originally Posted by Lavitz
Even though this is a very famous story, there have been scholars who have pointed out that this narration is actually weak.

Wallahu a'alam.
Salaam

Its from the seerah of the prophet pbuh, I've heard many scholars from different schools of thought talk about this point.

peace
Reply

Zafran
03-05-2015, 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
Like I stated Br/sr
bring it from quran and sunnah
also your inability to apply or understand seerah fully doesn't render it open to different interpretation, rather you not understanding history and context.
Theres a clear delineated difference of folks who just niggle over trifles and those causing civil, social, moral and political Unrest and inciting of hatred and violence!

:w:
Salaam

Quran and sunnah indeed have to be interpreted from "the people who know" or scholars, - the last time I checked nobody had a monopoly over it.

peace
Reply

Zafran
03-05-2015, 12:40 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
as I stated trying to kill, dissent, isn't akin to insult.
Arabs were known for chivalry and good manners. Even Abu jahl when he gathered his men to kill the prophet and upon being at his gates said, let's come back in the morning I don't want the Arabs to say that I horrified the women during the night!
Heres the prescribed punishment for insulting!

http://www.dorar.net/enc/aqadia/3589
think it should be a general rule that when speaking about matters Islam we should do so with evidence from Quran and sunnah not innovate- not necessarily addressing you with this comment but the OP
notice the verse from the Quran says don't insult their religion, not they can insult your religion and rather clear that it says so they don't insult yours - it's indeed a grievous thing what's more grievous is that kaffirs managed to remove the gheera from our hearts.
And no bringing people to God isn't the goal- rather saving ones own soul in true submission is!
﴿ يَاأَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا عَلَيْكُمْ أَنفُسَكُمْ لَا يَضُرُّكُمْ مَنْ ضَلَّ إِذَا اهْتَدَيْتُمْ إِلَى اللَّهِ مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعًا فَيُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَعْمَلُونَ(105) ﴾


:w:
Salaam

Quran and sunnah as I said are not lay peoples tool, this is a public forum not a scholars discussion room. Its the Job of Muslims to give Dawah, not "saving" people Allah swt does that. Of course Islam is about one submitting nobody denying that.

Your article is in Arabic that's a bit weird posting it on a English speaking forum???
Reply

جوري
03-05-2015, 12:56 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Salaam

Quran and sunnah as I said are not lay peoples tool, this is a public forum not a scholars discussion room. Its the Job of Muslims to give Dawah, not "saving" people Allah swt does that. Of course Islam is about one submitting nobody denying that.

Your article is in Arabic that's a bit weird posting it on a English speaking forum???
It's a job of every muslim to seek islamic knowledge and it's made obligatory.
If you know one thing well you should share it
ad'deen naseeha
And so is enjoining what's good and forbidding evil and a grievous punishment falls upon the people if they fail to do so I.e even if you know just 10% Islam and don't see it implemented or see it lied about or distorted and do nothing about it you'll be punished!
قال عليه الصلاة والسلام:
((كيف بكم إذا لم تأمروا بالمعروف ولم تنهوا عن المنكر؟ قالوا: أو كائن هذا يا رسول الله؟ قال: وأشد منه سيكون، قالوا: وما أشد منه؟ قال: كيف بكم إذا أمرتم بالمنكر وأمرتم عن المعروف؟ قالوا: أو كائن ذلك يا رسول الله؟ قال: وأشد منه سيكون، قال: كيف بكم إذا أصبح المعروف منكرا والمنكر معروفاً؟))
it has come to the point where what's the divine writ is plainly wrong in the views of people!
and here's the hadith with regards to that.
you're fond quoting things which allegedly umar IBN ilkhtaab did or said he also said
' learn Arabic for it will teach you wisdom'
and That's the language of the Quran and language of those seeking knowledge in matters ISLAM.
So I am not sure why being challenged on what's written seems more upsetting to many of you and taken personally over insults to the prophet or more upsetting than despots walking around in protests meant to insult the prophet under some disgusting guise of 'freedom of speech'
Abdullah of Jordan walks arm in arm to Netynyahu in a March sends his pilots to drop cluster bombs and white phosphorous over children and yet somehow people side with the aggressor because that's what is popular and people do it and say it so it must be correct it must be the norm and those who resist it are so obviously evil!
لا حول ولا قوة الا بالله
Reply

Zafran
03-05-2015, 01:01 AM
Originally Posted by جوري
It's a job of every muslim to seek islamic knowledge and it's made obligatory.
If you know one thing well you should share it
ad'deen naseeha
And so is enjoining what's good and forbidding evil and a grievous punishment falls upon the people if they fail to do so I.e even if you know just 10% Islam and don't see it implemented or see it lied about or distorted and do nothing about it you'll be punished?
قال عليه الصلاة والسلام:
((كيف بكم إذا لم تأمروا بالمعروف ولم تنهوا عن المنكر؟ قالوا: أو كائن هذا يا رسول الله؟ قال: وأشد منه سيكون، قالوا: وما أشد منه؟ قال: كيف بكم إذا أمرتم بالمنكر وأمرتم عن المعروف؟ قالوا: أو كائن ذلك يا رسول الله؟ قال: وأشد منه سيكون، قال: كيف بكم إذا أصبح المعروف منكرا والمنكر معروفاً؟))
and here's the hadith with regards to that.
youre fond quoting things which allegedly umar IBN ilkhtaab did or said he also said
'm learn Arabic for it will teach you wisdom'
and That's thr language of the Quran and language of those seeking knowledge in matters ISLAM.
So I am not sure why being challenged on what's written seems more upsetting to many of you over insults to the prophet or more upsetting than despots walking around in protests meant to insult the prophet under some disgusting guise of 'freedom of speech'
Abdullah of Jordan walks next to Netynyahu in a March sends his pilots to drop cluster bombs and white phosphorous over children and yet somehow people side with what's wrong because it's popular and people do it and say it so it must be correct it must be the norm!
لا حول ولا قوة الا بالله
salaam

Ok I'll take your advice on board

peace.
Reply

Johnathan
03-07-2015, 11:59 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
One thing that makes me happy is having friends. Alhamdulillah, I have many friends, and my friends are not only Muslims, but non-Muslims too. I also have met and acquainted with few people from other nations. They are very kind and friendly.

Meet, interact, and be friend with people from other nations is my dream.

Few years ago when I started to use internet I felt I have found the way to make my dream come true without leave my home. So I started to join in discussion in internet, but immediately I found something that shocking me, Islamophobia.

I've ever joined in a cultural forum. I hoped I could discuss about culture and tradition, but there were people who used that forum to insult Islam. I went to other sites, but again, I found there are many insult toward Islam. And even sometime I am insulted too just because I am Muslim.

Meet, interact, and be friend with people from other nations is my dream. But now I am even not dare to say that I am from Indonesia since people know that Indonesia is a country that has largest number of Muslims.

Islamophobia. Yes, I really feel it, and I am so sad. I just want to be friend with them, but why they see me as their enemy?.
Perhaps someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Muslims prohibited from making friends with Christians and Jews, and if a Muslim does befriend a Christian or Jew doesn't he become "of" or "one of" us?
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/5/51/default.htm
Reply

greenhill
03-07-2015, 12:06 PM
Have to look this up for certainty, but I believe it is more specific than that. If we cannot be friends with non Muslims, then how are we to show an example of how the deen is lived?

I think it has more to do with not being allied with non Muslim in seeking protection.

:peace:
Reply

Johnathan
03-07-2015, 12:17 PM
Originally Posted by greenhill
Have to look this up for certainty, but I believe it is more specific than that. If we cannot be friends with non Muslims, then how are we to show an example of how the deen is lived?

I think it has more to do with not being allied with non Muslim in seeking protection.

:peace:
Try clicking on the link. The majority of translations at that site use the term "friends", and most of them appear to be pretty clear on the matter, but since I don't read Arabic I can't know if most of those English translations are good or not.
Reply

greenhill
03-07-2015, 12:40 PM
Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return. (Quran 3:28)

This is what I found in respect of what I was referring to. (I don't speak arabic too). :hmm:

:peace:
Reply

Johnathan
03-07-2015, 12:51 PM
Originally Posted by Protected Soul
In all the books that i have read (correct me if am wrong) i have never read a scripture or a hadith where our Prophet Muhammad PBUH acted in a way to seek revenge.
Perhaps not for his own behalf, but I understand that when Islam's limits or legal bindings were transgressed, he would take revenge.
Reply

Johnathan
03-07-2015, 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by greenhill
Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Auliya (supporters, helpers, etc.) instead of the believers, and whoever does that will never be helped by Allah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them. And Allah warns you against Himself (His Punishment), and to Allah is the final return. (Quran 3:28)

This is what I found in respect of what I was referring to. (I don't speak arabic too). :hmm:

:peace:
I suppose you could cherry pick, to serve your own desires, but according to the most widely quoted (in the U.S.) Yusuf Ali translation, for 5:51:

Sura 5:51 "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."
Reply

جوري
03-07-2015, 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by Johnathan
I suppose you could cherry pick from the list at that link, to serve your own desires, but according to the most widely quoted (in the U.S.) Yusuf Ali translation:

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."
Well I speak arabic and therefore don't care for translations or what you consider an authority!
The verse means to take them for allies in governance you know the way saudi and the rest are allied with the U.S to bomb muslims in Iraq and Syria.
indeed the ****ation of :Allah: shall befall all those who do
so hopefully folks can wake up to the fact that their governments are nothing but allies and lackeys!

Btw YusufAli is a Shiite what strikes me as odd is how they named America 'the big satan' yet the US doesn't bother bomb them of course not they're certainly bed fellows along with the colonial settler cockroach state of Israel!
all the best,
Reply

ardianto
03-07-2015, 01:12 PM
Originally Posted by Johnathan
I suppose you could cherry pick from the list at that link, to serve your own desires, but according to the most widely quoted (in the U.S.) Yusuf Ali translation:

"O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."
Awliya (singular: wali) is not friends in common meaning, but allies (singular: ally). That verse refer to a case which a Muslim secretly made alliance with Jews without telling prophet.

A Muslim can acquainted and do activities with Jew or Christian as long as still follow guidance in relationship with non-Muslims. I can play football with my Christian friend, can go fishing together. But I cannot pray together with him, cannot involved in his religious festival.
Reply

Johnathan
03-07-2015, 01:20 PM
Sorry for my late edit, as I didn't realize you two posted, but I noticed later that greenhill was apparently posting a different verse.
Reply

Johnathan
03-07-2015, 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
Well I speak arabic and therefore don't care for translations or what you consider an authority!
I quote Yusuf Ali because it is the English version online Muslims are most familiar with, and thus it generally precludes me having to waste time with a cacophony of "that's a bad translation" type of responses.:hmm:

There are 31 English translations on that list, described as "generally accepted". Most of them use the word "friends". Is there a version on that list that in your opinion you would recommend I use?
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/5/51/default.htm
Originally Posted by جوري
The verse means to take them for allies in governance you know the way saudi and the rest are allied with the U.S to bomb muslims in Iraq and Syria.
indeed the ****ation of :Allah: shall befall all those who do
so hopefully folks can wake up to the fact that their governments are nothing but allies and lackeys!

Btw YusufAli is a Shiite what strikes me as odd is how they named America 'the big satan' yet the US doesn't bother bomb them of course not they're certainly bed fellows along with the colonial settler cockroach state of Israel!
all the best,
Reply

جوري
03-07-2015, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Johnathan
I quote Yusuf Ali because it is the English version Muslims are most familiar with and thus it generally precludes me having to waste time with a cacophony of "that's a bad translation" type of responses.:hmm:

There are 31 English translations on that list, described as "generally accepted". Are any of them a better translation for me to use in your opinion?
http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/5/51/default.htm
as you may have already cleverly figured from multiple posts I don't care for what you take as an authority.
a translation is just that it's not scholarship
American converts tend to prefer Mohammed Asad while british one prefer Marduke pickthall, those who prefer Yusuf Ali do so because his translation is less archaic more close to their everyday language.
if you want to learn etymology you use baheth.net if you want to learn unadulterated Quran you learn Arabic
indeed an example of complete transgression against that verse can be found in the entire muslim world kowtowing and obsequiousness to the west when at one point they were the super power over the world and that's what becomes of those who take you for allies.
hope two posts on the matter are Sufficient for you I tire of repeating myself!
Reply

Johnathan
03-07-2015, 02:24 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
as you may have already cleverly figured from multiple posts I don't care for what you take as an authority.
a translation is just that it's not scholarship
American converts tend to prefer Mohammed Asad ....
Perhaps a bit more blunt than Yusuf Ali in some regards which made me hesitant to quote it.
For that verse there isn't any material difference between the 3 English translations since they all use the word "friends" pretty much the same way.
Originally Posted by جوري
.... while british one prefer Marduke pickthall, those who prefer Yusuf Ali do so because his translation is less archaic more close to their everyday language.
if you want to learn etymology you use baheth.net if you want to learn unadulterated Quran you learn Arabic
indeed an example of complete transgression against that verse can be found in the entire muslim world kowtowing and obsequiousness to the west when at one point they were the super power over the world and that's what becomes of those who take you for allies.
I thought it was the Battle of Tours France that began the end of that Islamic hegemony, rather than because Muslims were trying to make friends or allies of non-Muslims.
Originally Posted by جوري
hope two posts on the matter are Sufficient for you I tire of repeating myself!
Reply

جوري
03-07-2015, 02:32 PM
Nope any adulteration to the laws of God renders folks factions hating one another:

Sahih International
Say, "He is the [one] Able to send upon you affliction from above you or from beneath your feet or to confuse you [so you become] sects and make you taste the violence of one another." Look how We diversify the signs that they might understand.




But it isn't over until it's over and folks are slowly returning to Islam in shaa Allah - the need is to focus on quality Muslims not quantity Muslims each bringing in his whims to infiltrate and weaken from within!
Reply

keiv
03-07-2015, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by Johnathan
Perhaps someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't Muslims prohibited from making friends with Christians and Jews, and if a Muslim does befriend a Christian or Jew doesn't he become "of" or "one of" us?
Originally Posted by Johnathan
Try clicking on the link. The majority of translations at that site use the term "friends", and most of them appear to be pretty clear on the matter, but since I don't read Arabic I can't know if most of those English translations are good or not.
Originally Posted by Johnathan
I suppose you could cherry pick, to serve your own desires, but according to the most widely quoted (in the U.S.) Yusuf Ali translation, for 5:51:

Sura 5:51 "O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily God guideth not a people unjust."
You're wrong and were already corrected, but I thought I'd point out that in the link you have provided, there are translations of the term being used as "protectors" "sponsors" "allies". You seemed to have done some cherry picking yourself to try and serve your own desires (you know, the very thing you accused others of doing). With all those different translations plus the many other verses in the Quran which speak on such matters and with a little bit of common sense, the answer is pretty clear.
Reply

Johnathan
03-07-2015, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
Nope any adulteration to the laws of God renders folks factions hating one another:
Aren't you effectively indicating that the ultimate arbiters of Islam, would be the ones most willing to fight and slay others, who hold a different understanding of the law?
Wouldn't the most powerful always be the ones that determine what is and is not "adulteration"?
Originally Posted by جوري

Sahih International
Say, "He is the [one] Able to send upon you affliction from above you or from beneath your feet or to confuse you [so you become] sects and make you taste the violence of one another." Look how We diversify the signs that they might understand.

But it isn't over until it's over and folks are slowly returning to Islam in shaa Allah - the need is to focus on quality Muslims not quantity Muslims each bringing in his whims to infiltrate and weaken from within!
Reply

جوري
03-07-2015, 02:53 PM
Koreans don't call anyone friends of we are niggling over the bones they've thrown- they're not owed love nor friendship whats disheartening though while you're busy making apologies for translations lest God forbid you hurt their feelers, they've built their bases, brought their armies, unraveled your creed, placed their despots to rule over you and stolen your lands and robbed your ummah of what's rightfully hers!
Reply

Johnathan
03-07-2015, 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by keiv
You're wrong and were already corrected, but I thought I'd point out that in the link you have provided, there are translations of the term being used as "protectors" "sponsors" "allies". You seemed to have done some cherry picking yourself to try and serve your own desires (you know, the very thing you accused others of doing). With all those different translations plus the many other verses in the Quran which speak on such matters and with a little bit of common sense, the answer is pretty clear.
Then with your interpretation I'm guessing you're no fan of guys like Anjem Choudary.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSGyzHC1m04
But between disagreeing Muslims which would be the ultimate arbiters of Islam?
The friendly peace loving ones that believe it's OK to befriend Christians and Jews, or the more violence prone ones that disagree with them?
Reply

جوري
03-07-2015, 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by Johnathan
Aren't you effectively indicating that the ultimate arbiters of Islam, would be the ones most willing to fight and slay others, who hold a different understanding of the law?
Wouldn't the most powerful always be the ones that determine what is and is not "adulteration"?
The punishment fits the crime even in the 'civilized west' those who caused sedition and were accused of treason were sentenced to death you may Google ethyl and Julius Rosenberg.
the law in the west is born of the imagination of perverse white men loosely based on laws of your middle eastern God.
You pretty much shut any opposition often without trial and simply on thought crimes then chime later about freedom of speech while in same breath passing anti defamation and libel laws to suit one group.
Believe it or not neither Afghanistan nor Iraq or any other region has invaded you- you however invaded them and defining what's good and moral double standards given you adhere to none of it yourself.
Reply

greenhill
03-07-2015, 03:01 PM
Yusof Ali, a Shiite is something I never knew.
Reply

جوري
03-07-2015, 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by greenhill
Yusof Ali, a Shiite is something I never knew.
He was a student of another famous translator he did mostly a good job but along with pooya Ali perversed the comments on many verses often adding their own rendition on 'ahel Al byet'
outside of that he did a semi decent job and credit should be given where it's due- if you've that background about him you should go in with supplemental sources but overall he didn't do a poor job he didn't do a great one either
and :Allah: :swt: knows best
Reply

Johnathan
03-07-2015, 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by Johnathan
Aren't you effectively indicating that the ultimate arbiters of Islam, would be the ones most willing to fight and slay others, who hold a different understanding of the law?
Wouldn't the most powerful always be the ones that determine what is and is not "adulteration"?
Originally Posted by جوري
The punishment fits the crime.....
So then the ultimate arbiter of Islam will indeed come down, to whichever group assembles the biggest army, in support of their group's interpretation of the law?
That is to say, whichever group gets to punish whatever other group, in protecting the law from what in their opinion is "adulteration".
Your post, as well as simple logic and Islam as evidenced around the world today, would certainly seem to support that conclusion.
Reply

ardianto
03-07-2015, 03:40 PM
Originally Posted by Johnathan
But between disagreeing Muslims which would be the ultimate arbiters of Islam?
The friendly peace loving ones that believe it's OK to befriend Christians and Jews, or the more violence prone ones that disagree with them?
For the objective answer you cannot ask this question to Muslims, but must ask non-Muslims.

So, which one you think deserve to be the arbiters of Islam?.

Don'y worry Johnathan, whatever your answer, I will not angry. :)
Reply

جوري
03-07-2015, 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by Johnathan
So then the ultimate arbiter of Islam will indeed come down, to whichever group assembles the biggest army, in support of their group's interpretation of the law?
That is to say, whichever group gets to punish whatever other group, in protecting the law from what in their opinion is "adulteration".
Your post, as well as simple logic and Islam as evidenced around the world today, would certainly seem to support that conclusion.
Simpletons draw satisfaction from overly simple conclusions they concoct in their own psyche- indeed a man's tongue is the revealer of what hides his heart as does his visage :)
Big armies and soldiery and artillery is a western thing- as we say in arabic:
اذا ذهبت التقوى فالنصر للأقوى
When piety is missing then victory is granted to he most prepared.
God makes victorious the righteous all the need is to follow his commands
moses had a staff, Noah a boat in such case God's soldiers were instruments in the hands of the pious!

this is simply the age where God divides the two camps to one with hypocrisy and no faith and one in absolute faith no hypocrisy if you read the last thread I started on as'hab al'ukhdood you'd have learned the entire pious population was tested and killed before God's victory was granted.
You can mire in that American sniper White wash to feel better about your brand of slaughter in the end God's plan shall prevail!


Sahih International
And We have not made the keepers of the Fire except angels. And We have not made their number except as a trial for those who disbelieve - that those who were given the Scripture will be convinced and those who have believed will increase in faith and those who were given the Scripture and the believers will not doubt and that those in whose hearts is hypocrisy and the disbelievers will say, "What does Allah intend by this as an example?" Thus does Allah leave astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And none knows the soldiers of your Lord except Him. And mention of the Fire is not but a reminder to humanity.



indeed none knows the soldiers of your Lord but he- fear thrown in your heart and cowardice is a soldier as Moses' staff was a soldier against the pharaoh and his armies, and may fear accompany all the wrong doers and disbelievers!
Reply

Johnathan
03-07-2015, 04:28 PM
Originally Posted by جوري
Simpletons draw satisfaction from overly simple conclusions they concoct in their own psyche- indeed a man's tongue is the revealer of what hides his heart as does his visage :)
Big armies and soldiery and artillery is a western thing- as we say in arabic:
اذا ذهبت التقوى فالنصر للأقوى
Come on, really? How is it a "western thing" when the imperialistic conquest of the Islamic first Jihad overran northern Africa and continued on all the way up into France and Austria?
Muslims making friends with non-Muslims?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours
Originally Posted by جوري
When piety is missing then victory is granted to he most prepared.
God makes victorious the righteous all the need is to follow his commands
moses had a staff, Noah a boat in such case God's soldiers were instruments in the hands of the pious!

this is simply the age where God divides the two camps to one with hypocrisy and no faith and one in absolute faith no hypocrisy.......
So which "camp" would Shiites put themselves in?
Reply

جوري
03-07-2015, 04:41 PM
Originally Posted by Johnathan
Come on, really? How is it a "western thing" when the imperialistic conquest of the Islamic first Jihad overran northern Africa and continued on all the way up into France and Austria?
Muslims making friends with non-Muslims?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Tours


So which "camp" would Shiites put themselves in?
we are meant to spread Islam - I understand your religion was only meant for jews:

/matthew/15-24Then Jesus said to the woman, "I was sent only to help God's lost sheep--the people of Israel."
nonetheless no one has rendered Africa in worse shape in division and strife save for your christians
unfortunately, you didn't find anyone fit to be loved by God and saved thus wiped out entire populations of indigenous folks whether in US or Australia or anywhere else you go. As I recall because they'd no souls heck you even kidnap folksfrom their coubtries to prove them apes per your evolution theories:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ota_Benga
a more wicked invaders I've not encountered :)
do you really wanna go down that path dear shill?

As For Shiites I don't care how they classify themselves - former Safavids fire worshippers who accepted Islam to infiltrate and deviate it!

all the best

Reply

Johnathan
03-07-2015, 04:52 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
For the objective answer you cannot ask this question to Muslims, but must ask non-Muslims.

So, which one you think deserve to be the arbiters of Islam?
Since I am not a Muslim it doesn't matter who I think "deserve" to be the arbiters of Islam. What should matter to Muslims, is who other Muslims think are the ones, that deserve to be the ultimate arbiters of Islam.
For instance it would seem that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi may think he and his crew are the ones that deserve to be the ultimate arbiters of Islam.

“The greatest answer to this question is in the Qur’an, where Allah speaks about the nearby enemy – those Muslims who have become infidels – as they are more dangerous than those which were already infidels,”

If you disagree with al-Baghdadi and his crew, would you hesitate to go over to Iraq and express the reasons for your disagreement, directly with him? If you would hesitate to, why would that be?
Originally Posted by ardianto
Don'y worry Johnathan, whatever your answer, I will not angry. :)
Reply

ardianto
03-07-2015, 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by Johnathan
Since I am not a Muslim it doesn't matter who I think "deserve" to be the arbiters of Islam. What should matter to Muslims, is who other Muslims think are the ones, that deserve to be the ultimate arbiters of Islam.
For instance it would seem that Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi may think he and his crew are the ones that deserve to be the ultimate arbiters of Islam.

“The greatest answer to this question is in the Qur’an, where Allah speaks about the nearby enemy – those Muslims who have become infidels – as they are more dangerous than those which were already infidels,”

If you disagree with al-Baghdadi and his crew, would you hesitate to go over to Iraq and express the reasons for your disagreement, directly with him? If you would hesitate to, why would that be?
It would be better for the world if I am still alive. So I can active in campaign to build religious tolerance, than I commit suicide through telling my disagreement with ISIS directly to al-Baghdadi.

They see me as the enemy who greater than you because they regard me as apostate.

ISIS already know that mostly of Muslims disagree with them. Few Muslims have told their disagreement directly, and ISIS executed all of them.
Reply

AmericanMuslim
03-07-2015, 06:05 PM
That is very wise of you to do. I wish other people had the same view point as you do, it would make the world much more peaceful. What bothers me is when Muslims (Specifically sisters who wear the hijab) get harassed by the Islamaphobes. They get called 'terrorists' and they are looked down upon in American society. They think every Muslim is an extremist. It is heart-breaking, honestly. Because a lot of sisters are really nice! I am nice! Whenever any of my non-Muslim friends have a question about Islam, I am more than happy to answer them! Or if they have a misconception, I help them see the truth. Whenever there is a homeless person, I give them money, and smile at them. I don't treat anyone like dirt, no matter their financial status. I try to be nice as I can to everyone around me (As long as it's halal). But I don't appreciate being titled as a terrorist just because of terrorists who may practice the same religion I do. I am not them! I am a peaceful little Muslimah who likes to make friends with everyone. That's it. I'm not a terrorist. Yet, people don't listen. May Allah help them find the truth, Ameen.
Reply

keiv
03-07-2015, 07:35 PM
Originally Posted by Johnathan
Then with your interpretation I'm guessing you're no fan of guys like Anjem Choudary.

But between disagreeing Muslims which would be the ultimate arbiters of Islam?
The friendly peace loving ones that believe it's OK to befriend Christians and Jews, or the more violence prone ones that disagree with them?
I never interpreted anything. I was merely pointing out the irony of your posts. Also, don't ask me what my opinions are of this person or that as that really has no relevance on the subject. You probably have an arsenal of links from anti Islamic sites which have, as you say, cherry picked certain ayat from the Quran, but have you actually read the surahs in which they came out of, including the one you linked? You can't come in here and ask a question telling people to correct you if you're wrong then turn around and argue that answer given to you because it isn't what you wanted to hear and/or it goes against what your church teaches you.
Reply

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

IslamicBoard

Experience a richer experience on our mobile app!