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ardianto
03-04-2015, 05:33 PM
:sl:

Today I drove my old car on a street in my city. The street condition is good enough, and I felt comfortable when I drove my car there.

Suddenly a question appeared in my mind "how if there was no tax?". And immediately the answer came to my mind "I might have newer car. Other people might have better cars. But these cars must run on soils that can be muddy in rainy season because government didn't have money to build streets".

The question appeared in my mind because I remember fatawa about tax that I found in internet. Yes, fatawa, plural, because I found two different fatwa that contradict each other.

First, "Tax is haram, and paying tax is haram too". The daleel (evidence) of this fatwa are hadith which Rasulullah (saw) forbade people to work as tax collector.

Second, "Which haram is tax that collected not for the benefit of the society, but only to support luxurious life of the ruler". Ulama who issue this fatwa say that what Rasulullah (saw) refer in those hadith were taxes that only to support luxurious life of the ruler. While taxes which the money are used to build roads, bridges, or public facilities is halal.

So, is tax haram or halal?.

I myself agree with the second fatwa. I don't see something haram if government ask public to give their money to build facilities that will be used by public themselves. Even I feel something wrong if I refuse to contribute, but I use the public facilities that build by public money.

Okay, my question. Do you agree that tax is absolutely haram?. Or do you agree that tax for public benefit is halal?.
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جوري
03-04-2015, 05:40 PM
It is haram, here's the hadith:
صلى الله عليه وسلم أنه قال : ( لا يدخل الجنة صاحب مكس ) وصححه الحاكم .

unforunately we're all tuck with kaffir laws, and yet by same token we fight Muslims, simply because we're clueless about what Islam is, we've grown under the shade of kuffr for over 200 years, and we've evolved into new creatures who've rendered Islam into a relic to be visited during prayer and fast if at all..

and Allah :swt: knows best,

:w:
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ardianto
03-04-2015, 05:46 PM
Don't you use public facilities that build by money from taxes?.
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جوري
03-04-2015, 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Don't you use public facilities that build by money from taxes?.
As stated we've grown up under kuffr laws and coerced into adhering to it, but it doesn't make it right!
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Abdullahh
03-04-2015, 08:19 PM
Haram. But, in my country I am required by law to pay tax.
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Abz2000
03-04-2015, 09:07 PM
There is zakat which is compulsory, and wealthy individuals often gave huge amounts to bait-al-maal as sadaqah, sometimes the caliph would see someone doing well and ask them to contribute, and other stuff is done via shura.

`Uthman was extremely wealthy and generous. When he heard the Prophet say: "Whoever equips the army of al-`Usra, Paradise is for him," he brought the Prophet a thousand gold dinars which he poured into his lap. The Prophet picked them up with his hand and said repeatedly: "Nothing shall harm `Uthman after what he did today." It is also narrated that equipped the army of al-`Usra with seven hundred ounces of gold, or seven hundred and fifty camels and fifty horses.
They never gave expecting worldly reward or political concessions, only the pleasure of Allah and the benefit of the believers.

Once, Abu Bakr brought all his belongings to the Prophet, who was raising money for the defense of Medina.
The Prophet asked*"Abu Bakr, what did you leave for your family?"*
The reply came:*"God and His Messenger."*-

See more at: http://www.iisna.com/articles/biogra....Ywuiuqtz.dpuf
I'll try to find sources for these inashaAllah as i've read the "leaping" one as "crawling" in "men around the messenger", and heard the badr companion one from anwar awlaki's audio etc, if someone else can contribute, JazakAllahu khayran.

Many stories are told of Abdur Rahman's personal generosity. He once furnished Muhammad's army with 1,500 camels.[citation needed]*He bequeathed 400*dinars*to the survivors of Badr and a large legacy to the widows of Muhammad.[citation needed]One day he brought a caravan of 700 merchant camels into Medina.*Aisha remarked, "I have heard the Allah's Messenger say: 'I have seen Abdur Rahman ibn Awf entering Paradise leaping.'" This was repeated to Abdur Rahman, who replied: "If I could, I would certainly like to enter Paradise standing. I swear to you,*yaa Ammah, that this entire caravan with all its merchandise, I will give in charity." And so he did.[citation needed]
there was this other occasion during abu bakr's khilafah where he saw that a companion had made a lot of profit so he asked him to donate some, the companion refused, then felt guilty and asked another companion to intercede, abu bakr said, i won't take it.

So we can see that when Islam is properly practised, the peoples hearts are tuned to Allah, seeking Allah's pleasure and good in eternity, and the Islamic state coffers are usually brimming.

On a local level,
In our village, when there's a communal task like a drain or wall or road to be fixed, or the mosque needs expansion or repair, the elders get together and put a certain payment on the rich people with no compulsion, and make collections after jumu'ah. Once they put a hefty price on me for the minaret and i refused, i told them i'd contribute if it was for another classroom for the maktab, nobody complained.

Also, if you raid any banks that refuse to give up the demand for usury, you have to give 20% to the bait al mal.
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ardianto
03-05-2015, 12:18 AM
The reason why I against fatwa that say that tax is haram and paying tax is haram is because this fatwa lead to injustice. Imagine if you live in a community which people contribute through their money to build community facilities. You refuse to contribute although you afford, but you use these facilities for free. Is it fair?. Of course not.

So I agree with fatwa that say, tax which the money will be used for public benefit is halal, while tax which the money used only for the regime private benefit is haram. We cannot generalize all taxes in this matter.

I have done historical research before I made this thread and I found what referred in hadith were taxes that not for public benefit, but only for the ruler/regime benefit. And this old style of tax was indeed harmed the people because it did not differentiate which people who afford which people who could not afford. Different than the new style of tax.

So, do not say tax is haram if you still use public facilities that paid by the money from taxes. Because if you say tax is haram, then use these public facilities could be haram too.

What you should do if you feel injustice in taxing, like the tax you must pay is too high, is make official complaint to your government.

I made his thread because I found, there are people who say "Muslims should not pay tax because tax is haram", but without feel guilty they use public facilities that build by money from taxes.
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M.I.A.
03-05-2015, 02:38 AM
on other boards people who are not muslim often argue that Jews and Christians paid higher taxes under muslim rule at the time of the prophet pbuh.


...i have no idea if it is true or not...

but if they did or were required to give charity the same as muslims how would it have been allocated or distributed?


i think taxes are a common sense approach, the concept is not a "bad" ideal if correctly implemented and workes under a voluntary basis in many other aspects of muslim life.

it can be abused or misrepresented like any law, but...

when you take into account DEVELOPMENT i seems extremely logical.

how else would one progress society? maybe if the people were constant migrants and travelers they would not adopt such ideas but in many places they are not.

it seems utterly selfish to not want to contribute to the upkeep of society in general, for all.

..or to not want its betterment.

simply hating it as a western ideal really makes me cringe. maybe there are alternatives but finding them within a country without flaw.. is probably very hard.


worse still being part of the very same systems and being against them is so hypocritical i cant even imagine a thread on it, never mind people actually living that way.

but western taxation is flawed, no doubt about it.

those that could alleviate the burden for most are the ones that are untouchable... getting a few of those to hand would lower taxes across the board...

but the idea is sound in theory, you either have a charity box or a tax collector.. sometimes you probably need both.

roads, healthcare.. benefits..

those would be a godsend if the government paid for them or helped alleviate the burden of them, call it by any other name.

...where we live we even have a private funeral fund.

common sense approach really.

why so ridiculous?
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Lavitz
03-05-2015, 08:18 AM
You should live in the GCC. The streets are great (most of the time) and way don't pay taxes.
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ardianto
03-06-2015, 11:47 PM
Originally Posted by Lavitz
You should live in the GCC. The streets are great (most of the time) and way don't pay taxes.
The GCC rulers also rule oil fields which the profits is enough to fund the countries development. But how about countries where the government do not have enough sources and resources to fund the countries development?. Is it wrong if government ask people to contribute their money to build roads and bridges that will be used by the people themselves?.

The cause why I made this thread was because I found some Muslims say that haram for government to ask money from public, but in another hand, they urge government to build public facilities. They do not realize that government don't have enough money to build public facilities. The only way if public want to have public facilities is contribute their money to build it. The role of government in this matter is just facilitator that collect these money then use these money to fund the the development of public facilities.

This is the point where we cannot say that tax is haram. I really agree with fatwa which say that government is allowed to ask money from people who afford, as long as these money are used to build what the public need.

I wonder about people who say Muslim should not pay tax, but they use public facilities that build by money from taxes.
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OmAbdullah
03-13-2015, 11:55 PM
It is the question of obedience to Allah and Allah's Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم . For the welfare of Islam and also for the welfare of needy people, there is a system of Islam which is mentioned in detail in the post#6 ( beautiful). The Islamic system encourages Muslims to help but up to their status and will. Only zakat is compulsory and its rates are fixed. But the non- obligatory charities are not compulsory.

There is also a kafir system consisting of man-made laws. This system compels every one to pay tax on every thing, it may be for the benefits of the public, but mankind is never free of faults.

Now it is up to you whether you accept Allah,s Law system and remain Muslim or you reject Allah,s Law and select the kafir system and thus unknowingly get out of Islam.
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ardianto
03-14-2015, 12:41 AM
Originally Posted by nbegam
It is the question of obedience to Allah and Allah's Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم . For the welfare of Islam and also for the welfare of needy people, there is a system of Islam which is mentioned in detail in the post#6 ( beautiful). The Islamic system encourages Muslims to help but up to their status and will. Only zakat is compulsory and its rates are fixed. But the non- obligatory charities are not compulsory.

There is also a kafir system consisting of man-made laws. This system compels every one to pay tax on every thing, it may be for the benefits of the public, but mankind is never free of faults.

Now it is up to you whether you accept Allah,s Law system and remain Muslim or you reject Allah,s Law and select the kafir system and thus unknowingly get out of Islam.
I didn't say that paying tax is wajib (obligatory), and in fact ulama never say that paying tax is wajib. But I made this thread because I found there are Muslims who issued fatwa that paying tax is haram.

Not wajib is different than haram. If we didn't do something that not wajib, we would not get sin. While haram means, if we did it, we would get sin. So, if we pay tax, does it mean we would get sin?.

Frankly, if those people issued fatwa that mention paying tax is not wajib, I can accept it. But they really use word "haram" in their fatawa. Even some of them say, do not ever pay tax.

This is the point that should be questioned.
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OmAbdullah
03-17-2015, 10:15 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
I didn't say that paying tax is wajib (obligatory), and in fact ulama never say that paying tax is wajib. But I made this thread because I found there are Muslims who issued fatwa that paying tax is haram.

Not wajib is different than haram. If we didn't do something that not wajib, we would not get sin. While haram means, if we did it, we would get sin. So, if we pay tax, does it mean we would get sin?.

Frankly, if those people issued fatwa that mention paying tax is not wajib, I can accept it. But they really use word "haram" in their fatawa. Even some of them say, do not ever pay tax.

This is the point that should be questioned.

A Muslim scholar can never say that tax is wajib or is not wajib because he has no concern with the laws of kufar. He can say that it is haram when he finds that a man made law is out of the limits of Islam. Then you have to find an ayat of the Quraan or a hadeeth to know about the truth of the saying of the scholar. Here you may have read the clear hadeeth in the post of حورى which clearly says that صاحب مكس (the companion of tax) shall not enter paradise. Companion can be a collector or the one who wants to keep it or to be with it.
When such a person cannot enter Paradise, then how can you take the risk by standing along its side.

I also read a hadeeth in the case of a punishment to a married adulterer where I remember that the Prophet صلى الله عليه وسلم said that the Muslim (who was punished) had given a kafaarah which will even forgive the sin of a tax collector.

May Allah forgive me for any of my mistakes in this hadeeth but I remember that on reading this hadeeth I was shocked to understand that tax collecting is such a big sin!!! May Allah be Merciful to us because today we are usually forced to pay the taxes. This is not with our will, but with our hate, so I hope that we are not the صاحب مكس.

Allah didn't prevent the works for public welfare. A hadeeth says that make a masjid small to make the street wide. (I wrote it in my own words, Allah knows best). Such a hadeeth proves that Allah cares so much for the comfort of mankind. But Islam has the solution. People have to pay obligatory zakat. Also when needed they may be asked to help for the pleasure of Allah, and then more than sufficient money comes for the welfare of the public. Allah will also bless it with barakah and so it is done. When Uthman رضى الله عنه bought a well from a Jew and left it free for the Muslims to take water from it, how much reward he won!!! Was it not a work for the welfare of the people?
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M.I.A.
03-17-2015, 10:45 PM
OK let's keep it simple..

If you had a house and a job.. Then the people living in the house would probably not be expected to contribute.

...and that's perfectly fine because love, family or brotherhood.

..if you rented out a room then something would be required..

Unless it was out of the goodness of your heart.

...god knows what other people living in the house would think.

So if you feel that the upkeep of your house is not your responsibility..

Because god will provide.

Then most people end up living outside.

...and the circle begins again,

Let the right people into your house and it becomes a home.



Fantastic, I wrote that xD

No man is self sufficient (plagerised)
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ardianto
03-17-2015, 11:39 PM
@ sister nbegam

Indonesian government has no enough source of income to fund development, like to build roads, bridges, and other facilities that for be used by public. The only way to get money is ask people to contribute. Yes, it's obligated because if not obligated then people would not give contribution but want to use those facilities.

Use zakat money?. The amount is very low because zakat rate in my place is low. And zakat money are used only to help the needy people, and cannot be used to build public facilities. Different than infaq or shadaqah.

There are two fatawa about zakat in my place. First is fatwa that issued by few people in internet, only in internet, which say that tax is absolutely haram. Second is fatwa that issued by ulama in my place as response of the first fatwa. In second fatwa. tax can be halal and can be haram. If tax taken from public and the money is used for public benefit, it's halal. But if tax is taken from public but not to be used for public benefit, it's haram. And there is rule in taking tax, like not to be taken from people who are not able to pay tax.

In the past when Indonesia still under colonial rule, the colonialist govt implemented tax toward native people but the money were brought to Europe, not to build something for the native people. Tax like this is haram.

The reason why I made this thread was because there were few people in internet who issued fatwa that Indonesian government should not take tax from people. They also issued kafir fatwa to employees in tax department. Although only in internet, this fatwa got reaction from people in the real world because it caused confusion among people.

"Indonesia is not Saudi". This is reaction from few brothers in Indonesia. Yes sis, in country where the ruler hold enough source of income to fund development, like from oil field, then taking taxes from people could be haram because there is no needs behind this. But how about in country where the government doesn't hold enough source of income to fund development while they need to build public facilities?. Ulama in my place say, in case like this government is allowed to ask money from people, as long as in the way that will not make the people suffer, and the money is used for public benefit.

There is need behind this which can be classified as darurah (emergency).
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OmAbdullah
03-19-2015, 11:20 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
@

Ulama in my place say, in case like this government is allowed to ask money from people, as long as in the way that will not make the people suffer, and the money is used for public benefit.

There is need behind this which can be classified as darurah (emergency).
Assalamo alaikum wa rahmatullah.

In my opinion, I have no objection to the quoted words, but it should not be named tax. Rather it should be named as non-obligatory charity for the sake of Allah so that for the benefit of common people, roads, schools and hospitals etc. can be made. This is my opinion, if I am wrong then I pray to Allah to guide us all to the correct application of the Holy Quraan and Sunnah, aameen.
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Zafran
03-20-2015, 04:10 AM
salaam

In most countries if you dont want to pay tax then its best to leave that country. In The UK Tax is spent on health care so its free, roads, street lighting, defense. Media (bbc), child care, disable care etc. If you don't pay it you can go to prison. Its basically a contract with the government. Most of time the government spends on good things.
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paralon3
04-15-2017, 11:58 PM
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a7554481.html

Tax free era is over dude, even Saudi now have to introduced tax for their people because of the oil slump.
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