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ardianto
05-07-2015, 02:15 PM
:sl:

When I was a kid, every traveling I always saw the beautiful scenery such as gardens, rice fields, or other green areas. Sometimes I also visited the green area to enjoy the natural coolness that filled with plants.

Now ?. Many of those green areas that have been lost, changed into residential areas. The cause is because the human population continues to grow. Yes, this is what happens if the population continues to grow. Green nature will be lost and turned into a concrete jungle, the weather will be hotter, and the air will be dirty.

This is what makes me often worry about the fate of my descendants, because I know, overpopulation will cause damage to the earth. It has been seen now. Earth has become hotter, floods and landslides occur everywhere.

Yes, I often worry, what will happen to my descendants if the earth no longer hospitable to humans ?.
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new2010
05-07-2015, 02:23 PM
wa Alaikum Assalam,

how are you bro? SubhanAllah, we actually were discussing about this topic in the thread about "social freezing". I really can understand your worries, but I am always wondering either, whether we're allowed to think like that. I would really be interested in a view of a scholar on this. However, I personally can not image that we're are allowed to destroy our environment, when only saying Allah will straighten it. Are we not those who are guests on this planet and should use it in a good manner?
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M.I.A.
05-07-2015, 02:23 PM
Well its about adaptability, in my country there is still a lot of greenery.. Probably in your country also.

I guess as cities expand and new settlements are built better planning and architecture can make the most of preserving those spaces.

Maybe alternative energy and fuels will go a long way to ensuring there survival within built up areas.

You look at places like america and the entire population of the world could probably fit into it comfortability..

Alternate methods of feeding people and growing crops will go a long way to keeping quality of life similar to how it is now..

Hopefully.

The future is bright as long as we keep working towards building it rather than destroying it.

God willing.

...its a management thing.
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Signor
05-07-2015, 02:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
When I was a kid, every traveling I always saw the beautiful scenery such as gardens, rice fields, or other green areas. Sometimes I also visited the green area to enjoy the natural coolness that filled with plants.

Now ?. Many of those green areas that have been lost, changed into residential areas. The cause is because the human population continues to grow. Yes, this is what happens if the population continues to grow. Green nature will be lost and turned into a concrete jungle, the weather will be hotter, and the air will be dirty.
I think its because of urbanization and industrialization of modern world instead of overpopulation which could be managed if done properly.Often,this verse is quoted when people talk about the conditions of blue planet.

Corruption has appeared throughout the land and sea by (reason of) what the hands of people have earned, so He (i.e. Allah) may let them taste part of (the consequences of) what they have done that perhaps they will return (to righteousness).[Quran 30:41]
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ardianto
05-07-2015, 03:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by new2010
wa Alaikum Assalam,

how are you bro? SubhanAllah, we actually were discussing about this topic in the thread about "social freezing". I really can understand your worries, but I am always wondering either, whether we're allowed to think like that. I would really be interested in a view of a scholar on this. However, I personally can not image that we're are allowed to destroy our environment, when only saying Allah will straighten it. Are we not those who are guests on this planet and should use it in a good manner?
Alhamdulillah, I am fine.

Social freezing and overpopulation are two different topics. That's why I made this thread with purpose to draw those who want to discuss about overpopulation, so your thread will still focus on scholarly view on social freezing.

Indeed, the trigger that made me created this thread is discussion about overpopulation in your thread. I totally disagree if the problem of overpopulation is just a myth because I can see the impact of population growth toward environment.
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Scimitar
05-07-2015, 03:51 PM
overpopulation is a myth - anyone who thinks the world is overpopulated clearly doesn't believe in Allah fully as the provider and sustainer of all creation.

Appearance And Reality Are Always Different - take a spiritual approach instead of a material one which your eyes deceive you with.

Scimi
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ardianto
05-07-2015, 04:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Signor
I think its because of urbanization and industrialization of modern world instead of overpopulation which could be managed if done properly.Often,this verse is quoted when people talk about the conditions of blue planet.
No bro, that's happened not because urbanization, but because population growth. I know it because I witness it.

When me and my friends were young we were living together with our parents and our siblings. But then after we got married we need to have new homes. This is the cause of the growth of residential areas. Now mostly of my friends, and also my sister, are living in areas which were previously paddy fields and plantation areas in 80's.

Indeed, apartment can reduce the growth of area that used for residential purpose. But how about poor people who can't afford to buy or rent apartment?. So the growth of slum areas is something that unavoidable.

Population growth led to the growth of buildings and roads, and this will cause the ground covered by concrete and asphalt that will prevent the absorption of water. This is the cause of flood that often happen nowadays. .

format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
overpopulation is a myth - anyone who thinks the world is overpopulated clearly doesn't believe in Allah fully as the provider and sustainer of all creation.

Appearance And Reality Are Always Different - take a spiritual approach instead of a material one which your eyes deceive you with.

Scimi
The earth indeed, large enough to accommodate more humans. However, we cannot just think about available space, but we must also think about the balance between human and nature. Too many population will cause damage of nature balance in support the human life.

Do you know how many forests that have been changed into plantation areas?. Do you know how many species of animal that have been and will extinct because they lost their habitat due to human population growth?.
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Scimitar
05-07-2015, 04:24 PM
Yes I do, and I see that happening due to the abuse human beings have put the world thru due to their incessant need to burn fossil fuels so they can drive industry and technology forward....

.... is it right? NO.

What is a viceregent?

A viceregent is someone who is a care taker for something.

Allah placed us humans here on earth as care takers - we Muslims know that, but the rest of the world doesn't. They think this life is all fun and frolic. To feed that lifestyle, they need constant distraction - so they don't have to think about their immortal soul. As a result of this selfishness and the media propagations of "consume consume consume" we have unfortunately - consumed too much... you know what this modernity reminds me of? this consumer lifestyle? It reminds me of those who corrupt every good idea and twist it around to justify their evil intentions - namely Ya'juj wa Ma'juj...

...you wanna live green? Drop your car and your racing and get a horse, simple. You wanna save the planet? refuse to burn fossil fuels from mega industries, instead go for the natural option and kindle a fire the way the ancients used to. You wanna stop the filthy rich from increasing the divide between rich and poor? Drop your bank account and buy gold instead. You wanna do this? do that... you wanna do that? do this... etc...

bottom line is - there are plenty of options, but creature comforts will prevail as no one likes hardship.

Yet, we are taught that hardship is a part of life.

Too many people worry about this that and the other - without rationalising their argument in light of Quranic teachings.

Scimi
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new2010
05-07-2015, 05:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
No bro, that's happened not because urbanization, but because population growth. I know it because I witness it.

When me and my friends were young we were living together with our parents and our siblings. But then after we got married we need to have new homes. This is the cause of the growth of residential areas. Now mostly of my friends, and also my sister, are living in areas which were previously paddy fields and plantation areas in 80's.

Indeed, apartment can reduce the growth of area that used for residential purpose. But how about poor people who can't afford to buy or rent apartment?. So the growth of slum areas is something that unavoidable.

Population growth led to the growth of buildings and roads, and this will cause the ground covered by concrete and asphalt that will prevent the absorption of water. This is the cause of flood that often happen nowadays. .


The earth indeed, large enough to accommodate more humans. However, we cannot just think about available space, but we must also think about the balance between human and nature. Too many population will cause damage of nature balance in support the human life.

Do you know how many forests that have been changed into plantation areas?. Do you know how many species of animal that have been and will extinct because they lost their habitat due to human population growth?.
I do agree to brother "scimitar", we don't have the right to say we're to many. That's probably not the major issue. Allah mentions in the Quran:
And whoever fears Allah, for him Allah brings forth a way out, and gives him provision (rizq) from where he does not even imagine…(Surah At-Talaq: 2/3)
I don't want to write about an islamicly view because I am not qualified for that, however I've a feeling that this might have a dangerous ending.

As far as I concern, the urbanization process has been a result of industrialization, so people from the land came into the cities in the beginning of industrialization to gain more money and feed their family. When this process started in Europe, people haven't been really on a high standard. They lived an tremendous bad conditions. This fact probably lead people to find ways for more innovation to survive in the "new system". Nowadays, the western countries underwent a development that is globally respected, however they gained this high standard by exploiting countries with plentiful resources. Overpopulation is not the issue. It's the greed of countries and probably our financial system that works globally and is based on greed. We need just to look up the definition of capitalism by Adam Smith. You mentioned the plantation areas, as you're from Indonesia, I assume you mean among other things, the palm oil plantation areas. This it indeed a huge problem, but according to my humble opinion has nothing to do with overpopulation. It's the western system that exploits other countries to maintain or more to grow their standard and feed their own people. The problem is global inequality.

I have no deeper information about the situation in Indonesia at the moment, so I want to focus on Africa. Let's take any country, it doesn't matter which one; all of them have similar structure. When western countries would stop to go there (even today, after the time of colonialism - it's still there!) there is no development in the most countries and the most of the infants die before they reach a child age. For some a reason I am sure, people in Africa don't want much as western countries. I am sure, they would be satisfied, when they have a decent life with enough nutrition for themselves and their children in combination with a home that saves them from weather and a health care. At least at that level, that they don't die on illness, for what people in Europe died centuries ago.

Western countries would even not lose much, the way of living is so wasteful, that they would - with Allah permission - be able to feed many many people there when western countries would use their stuff more efficiently. Furthermore, we need to rethink our way of living. Akhi, you mentioned many negativ factors of urbanisation, however this is again not directly a problem of overpopulation. There are a lot of projects in sustainable urban development. This is a way in the right direction, I am sure, in a couple of decades we will be able to decrease costs in building those and this kind of technologies are going to be the standard. InshaAllah.

In conclusion, when we rethink our habits and decrease the bads, there will be more resources available for more people. It's not that we have too less it's just how we use our resources. Of course humanity have to rethink and develop more efficiently and sustainable technologies, otherwise it will be genuinely difficult.
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Futuwwa
05-07-2015, 06:23 PM
Well, Indonesia is exceptionally densely populated. Don't worry, there's plenty of natural environment elsewhere even when all of Indonesia has been paved. And it won't come to that, population growth will stop after enough development has happened, like it has in almost every first world country.
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sister herb
05-07-2015, 07:34 PM
Some problems associated with or exacerbated by human overpopulation and over-consumption are:

Inadequate fresh water for drinking as well as sewage treatment and effluent discharge. Some countries, like Saudi Arabia, use energy-expensive desalination to solve the problem of water shortages.

Depletion of natural resources, especially fossil fuels.

Increased levels of air pollution, water pollution, soil contamination and noise pollution. Once a country has industrialized and become wealthy, a combination of government regulation and technological innovation causes pollution to decline substantially, even as the population continues to grow.

Deforestation and loss of ecosystems that valuably contribute to the global atmospheric oxygen and carbon dioxide balance; about eight million hectares of forest are lost each year.

Changes in atmospheric composition and consequent global warming.

Loss of arable land and increase in desertification. Deforestation and desertification can be reversed by adopting property rights, and this policy is successful even while the human population continues to grow.

Mass species extinctions from reduced habitat in tropical forests due to slash-and-burn techniques that sometimes are practiced by shifting cultivators, especially in countries with rapidly expanding rural populations; present extinction rates may be as high as 140,000 species lost per year. As of February 2011, the IUCN Red List lists a total of 801 animal species having gone extinct during recorded human history.

High infant and child mortality. High rates of infant mortality are associated with poverty. Rich countries with high population densities have low rates of infant mortality.

Intensive factory farming to support large populations. It results in human threats including the evolution and spread of antibiotic resistant bacteria diseases, excessive air and water pollution, and new viruses that infect humans.

Increased chance of the emergence of new epidemics and pandemics. For many environmental and social reasons, including overcrowded living conditions, malnutrition and inadequate, inaccessible, or non-existent health care, the poor are more likely to be exposed to infectious diseases.

Starvation, malnutrition or poor diet with ill health and diet-deficiency diseases (e.g. rickets). However, rich countries with high population densities do not have famine.

Poverty coupled with inflation in some regions and a resulting low level of capital formation. Poverty and inflation are aggravated by bad government and bad economic policies. Many countries with high population densities have eliminated absolute poverty and keep their inflation rates very low.

Low life expectancy in countries with fastest growing populations.

Unhygienic living conditions for many based upon water resource depletion, discharge of raw sewage and solid waste disposal. However, this problem can be reduced with the adoption of sewers. For example, after Karachi, Pakistan installed sewers, its infant mortality rate fell substantially.

Elevated crime rate due to drug cartels and increased theft by people stealing resources to survive.

Conflict over scarce resources and crowding, leading to increased levels of warfare.

Less personal freedom and more restrictive laws. Laws regulate interactions between humans. Law "serves as a primary social mediator of relations between people".

The higher the population density, the more frequent such interactions become, and thus there develops a need for more laws and/or more restrictive laws to regulate these interactions.

Source: wikipedia
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ardianto
05-07-2015, 11:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa
Well, Indonesia is exceptionally densely populated. Don't worry, there's plenty of natural environment elsewhere even when all of Indonesia has been paved. And it won't come to that, population growth will stop after enough development has happened, like it has in almost every first world country.
In Population density Indonesia is only in 90th position. The only problem is more than a half of Indonesian people are living in Java island, although if compared with Bangladesh, the over populated Java island is still less density. In birth rate Indonesia now even below the world average, only 2.4 while the world average is 2.5. Yes, it's related to increasing number of middle-class that see small family as the ideal family.

Indonesia's population growth is now indeed slower than previous, but the problem is, the land cannot be expanded. So, later the increasing of population density will affect the balance of nature.
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greenhill
05-08-2015, 02:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
overpopulation is a myth
Yup. A few hundred years ago, when the population started growing tremendously the leading thought was that the world was fast approaching a point where there will be not enough food to feed everybody. The idea was that we will be entering a period where it would be 'survival of the fittest'. (I reckon that helped to push the interest in the 'natural selection' process of evolution theories).

However, nobody even considered that there was going to be a breakthrough in technology in the agricultural field. The likes of Jethro Tull who modernized the way in which farming was done and then the Agrarian Revolution took place (1600-1700s) and the food production increased and the worry of not enough food for the world became a non issue.

What has happened is that with the increase in mechanization more and more people are made redundant in the agricultural sector and they have to seek employment elsewhere. Usually it is easier to find employment in the cities hence the migration of people towards cities resulting in the increased urbanization. In order to cater for the increased demand for lodgings, most of the outskirts development is done without proper care (and largely on the cheap) resulting in the problems of improper planning....

Population is meant to increase naturally and cannot decrease unless something is wrong. If not from just a pair (Adam and Eve pbut) we would not have the population on Earth to be this many.....and again after the Great Flood of Noah (pbuh) the Earth was once again repopulated.


:peace:
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sister herb
05-08-2015, 04:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by greenhill
Population is meant to increase naturally and cannot decrease unless something is wrong.
Now something is wrong. The nature has its limits how big human population it can feed. Some people see that pandemias are the natural way to reduce the human population. Before the development of medical science during the history that has been "natural" way to avoid over-population problems.
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Scimitar
05-08-2015, 10:57 AM
sister herb,.. you've bought into the scare mongering of the elite. amazing.

Scimi
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greenhill
05-08-2015, 01:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Now something is wrong. The nature has its limits how big human population it can feed. Some people see that pandemias are the natural way to reduce the human population. Before the development of medical science during the history that has been "natural" way to avoid over-population problems.
:statisfie I agree! Nature has its limits... Most of the diseases we have today is as a result of man perversing nature in the first place.. or have we forgotten? How greed has raped nature. It is not over population. The lack of concern for hygiene or care for the masses due to profits, or wanting to extend shelf life needs certain ingredients, despite the long term implications to health. The medication by and large may help shorten the suffering, but as Florence Nightingale found, it wasn't the medicine so much that saved lives, it was the cleanliness aspect. Just washing the hands and cleaning the tools reduced infection and ultimately, death! A simple Islamic MUST, cleanliness. Yes, vaccination helped a great deal too...On some people matters, there will always be some people thinking very differently.... :peace:
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new2010
05-08-2015, 06:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
The nature has its limits how big human population it can feed.
Sometimes I am wondering whether we really have sufficient thrust in our Rabb? There are problems, but nature has nothing to do with it. Allah is almighty and he's able to feed 10^∞ people! Again: it's not nature it's us!

format_quote Originally Posted by http://www.study-quran.com/2011/11/tafsir-ibn-kathir-qs-at-talaq-2-3.html
Tafsir Ibn Kathir Qs At Talaq 2-3
Allah provides, suffices, and makes a Way out of Every Hardship for Those Who have Taqwa

Allah said,

﴿وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مَخْرَجاًوَيَرْزُقْهُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لاَ يَحْتَسِبُ﴾

(And whosoever has Taqwa of Allah, He will make a way for him to get out. And He will provide him from where he never could imagine.) meaning, whoever has Taqwa of Allah in what He has commanded and avoids what He has forbidden, then Allah will make a way out for him from every difficulty and will provide for him from resources he never anticipated or thought about. Ibn Abi Hatim recorded that `Abdullah bin Mas`ud said, "The most comprehensive Ayah in the Qur'an is,

﴿إِنَّ اللَّهَ يَأْمُرُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَالإْحْسَانِ﴾

(Verily, Allah enjoins Al-`Adl (justice) and Al-Ihsan (doing good) (16:90). The greatest Ayah in the Qur'an that contains relief is,

﴿وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مَخْرَجاً﴾

(And whosoever has Taqwa of Allah, He will make a way for him to get out.)'' `Ikrimah also commented on the Ayah, "Whoever divorces as Allah commanded him, then Allah will make a way out for him.'' Similar was reported from Ibn `Abbas and Ad-Dahhak.`Abdullah bin Mas`ud and Masruq commented on the Ayah,

﴿وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مَخْرَجاً﴾

(And whosoever has Taqwa of Allah, He will make a way for him to get out.) "It pertains to when one knows that if Allah wills He gives, and if He wills He deprives,

﴿مِنْ حَيْثُ لاَ يَحْتَسِبُ﴾

(from where he never could imagine.) from resources he did not anticipate'' Qatadah said,

﴿وَمَن يَتَّقِ اللَّهَ يَجْعَل لَّهُ مَخْرَجاً﴾

(And whosoever has Taqwa of Allah, He will make a way for him to get out.) "meaning, from every doubt and the horrors experienced at the time of death,

﴿وَيَرْزُقْهُ مِنْ حَيْثُ لاَ يَحْتَسِبُ﴾

(And He will provide him from where he never could imagine) from where he never thought of or anticipated.'' Allah said,

﴿وَمَن يَتَوَكَّلْ عَلَى اللَّهِ فَهُوَ حَسْبُهُ﴾

(And whosoever puts his trust in Allah, then He will suffice him.) Imam Ahmad recorded that Ibn `Abbas said that he rode the Prophet's camel while sitting behind the Prophet , and the Messenger of Allah said to him,

«يَا غُلَامُ إِنِّي مُعَلِّمُكَ كَلِمَاتٍ: احْفَظِ اللهَ يَحْفَظْكَ، احْفَظِ اللهَ تَجِدْهُ تُجَاهَكَ، وَإِذَا سَأَلْتَ فَاسْأَلِ اللهَ، وَإِذَا اسْتَعَنْتَ فَاسْتَعِنْ بِاللهِ، وَاعْلَمْ أَنَّ الْأُمَّةَ لَوِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى أَنْ يَنْفَعُوكَ لَمْ يَنْفَعُوكَ إِلَّا بِشَيْءٍ قَدْ كَتَبَهُ اللهُ لَكَ، وَلَوِ اجْتَمَعُوا عَلَى أَنْ يَضُرُّوكَ لَمْ يَضُرُّوكَ إِلَّا بِشَيْءٍ قَدْ كَتَبَهُ اللهُ عَلَيْكَ، رُفِعَتِ الْأَقْلَامُ وَجَفَّتِ الصُّحُف»

(O boy! I will teach you words ﴿so learn them﴾. Be mindful of Allah and He will protect you, be mindful of Allah and He will be on your side. If you ask, ask Allah, and if you seek help, seek it from Allah. Know that if the Ummah gather their strength to bring you benefit, they will never bring you benefit, except that which Allah has decreed for you. Know that if they gather their strength to harm you, they will never harm you, except with that which Allah has decreed against you. The pens have been raised and the pages are dry.) At-Tirmidhi collected this Hadith and said: "Hasan Sahih.'' Allah's statement,

﴿إِنَّ اللَّهَ بَـلِغُ أَمْرِهِ﴾

(Verily, Allah will accomplish his purpose.) meaning, Allah will execute His decisions and judgement that He made for him, in whatever way He wills and chooses,

﴿قَدْ جَعَلَ اللَّهُ لِكُلِّ شَىْءٍ قَدْراً﴾

(Indeed Allah has set a measure for all things.) This is like His saying:

﴿وَكُلُّ شَىْءٍ عِندَهُ بِمِقْدَارٍ﴾

(Everything with Him is in (due) proportion.) (13:8)
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ardianto
05-09-2015, 12:26 AM
To be honest, I made this thread as response to brother Scimitar's statement in another thread that it's good if married couple have 20 children. No, it's not good. Have too many children will cause difficulty in parenting. I know it because I am a father.

I have ever made a thread which I said that Allah will give sustenance for married couple. Yes, it's true. But it doesn't mean that it's okay if married couple have much children because there is limit on sustenance that given by Allah. Look at people in slum area who have many children. Does have more children makes them get more sustenance?.

If only one or few married couple who believe that it's good to have any children, it's still okay. But if many married couple have this mindset and their children have same mindset too, it will cause population blast which the population grow too fast.

Sister Herb is right, nature has limit in provide the human needs. Indeed, with mind and intelligence human can make the nature increase its limit in providing foods for human through increasing agricultural production and animal husbandry. But if human population grow too fast, then human ability to make nature provide foods will not able to pursuit the human demand for foods.

And the most important is, earth cannot be expanded. Population growth makes human need more and more space for them, and it will make human take over the space that provided for plants, animals, and open ground. It will cause damage toward the nature. In example, now flood is easily happen in anywhere. It's because the open ground which needed for soil to absorb the rain have been occupied by human and soil cannot absorb the water properly.

Population growth also cause human change the forest into plantation area or even into residential area. It makes the trees ability to provide oxygen for human decreased. Indeed, we can plant new trees. But many trees we can plant and how long the time trees need to grow up?.

Population growth is something that unavoidable. But we must control this growth, because if not, then the nature will not able to provide what we need.
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Futuwwa
05-09-2015, 02:03 AM
Anyone who says there is no such thing as overpopulation can start by accounting for the fact that the Earth is not currently covered by a kilometre-deep solid layer of bacteria. Or try to keep 100 sheep fed on a 1 square metre pasture.

Economical and technological development can increase the capacity of an area to support human life, but such development won't just magically happen simply because it is needed. On the contrary, the resulting poverty and deprivation can easily act as a catalyst for conflict over scarce resources, hindering the needed development.

Also, supportable population depends on standards of living too. First world grain production alone could probably feed about 20 billion people if that grain was actually used as food, rather than as the food of our food, like about 90% of it is currently.
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Scimitar
05-09-2015, 02:33 AM
one word to kill your argument... Monsanto!

Scimi
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greenhill
05-09-2015, 10:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Monsanto!
Funny how the company has the worst public perception in the US. I mean the bottom of the pile... :/


:peace:
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Scimitar
05-09-2015, 10:47 AM
because it is the worst. their gmo seeds have not delivered on promise. in India, 30 farmers commit suicide every day because of monsanto. monsanto is a proper dajjal agency. get rid of monsanto and bring back the organic.

Scimi
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Futuwwa
05-09-2015, 11:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
one word to kill your argument... Monsanto!

Scimi
Go on.
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Scimitar
05-09-2015, 11:47 AM
Bro futuwwa, you can look up monsanto yourself and see what they are doing to world fruit and veg produce. They also got the monopoly om water now, claiming it is no longer a human right... and worse, they are filing for more.

But don't take my word for it. I'm just some random on the web. Investigate.

Scimi
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Futuwwa
05-09-2015, 11:56 AM
I know what Monsanto is and does. Now, tell me, how does that disprove the notion that there is such a thing as overpopulation?

If you want to convince me (or pretty much anyone else who isn't already so), you will have to make an actual argument, not just say "I'm right, you're wrong, because the Internet".
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Scimitar
05-09-2015, 12:26 PM
Sister herbs argument is that the worlds crop peoduction cannot support humanity in the modern age, my argument is simple - get rid of monsanto then, their seeds have lowered global crop production by almost 30 % and the wastage is phenomenal.

Like I said, investigate.

Scimi
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Scimitar
05-09-2015, 12:37 PM
http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-see...arming/5329947

onsanto’s talk of ‘technology’ tries to hide its real objectives of control over seed where genetic engineering is a means to control seed,
“Monsanto is an agricultural company.
We apply innovation and technology to help farmers around the world \produce more while conserving more.”
“Producing more, Conserving more, Improving farmers lives.”
These are the promises Monsanto India’s website makes, alongside pictures of smiling, prosperous farmers from the state of Maharashtra. This is a desperate attempt by Monsanto and its PR machinery to delink the epidemic of farmers’ suicides in India from the company’s growing control over cotton seed supply — 95 per cent of India’s cotton seed is now controlled by Monsanto.
Control over seed is the first link in the food chain because seed is the source of life. When a corporation controls seed, it controls life, especially the life of farmers.
Monsanto’s concentrated control over the seed sector in India as well as across the world is very worrying. This is what connects farmers’ suicides in India to Monsanto vs Percy Schmeiser in Canada, to Monsanto vs Bowman in the US, and to farmers in Brazil suing Monsanto for $2.2 billion for unfair collection of royalty.
Through patents on seed, Monsanto has become the “Life Lord” of our planet, collecting rents for life’s renewal from farmers, the original breeders.
Patents on seed are illegitimate because putting a toxic gene into a plant cell is not “creating” or “inventing” a plant. These are seeds of deception — the deception that Monsanto is the creator of seeds and life; the deception that while Monsanto sues farmers and traps them in debt, it pretends to be working for farmers’ welfare, and the deception that GMOs feed the world. GMOs are failing to control pests and weeds, and have instead led to the emergence of superpests and superweeds.
The entry of Monsanto in the Indian seed sector was made possible with a 1988 Seed Policy imposed by the World Bank, requiring the Government of India to deregulate the seed sector. Five things changed with Monsanto’s entry: First, Indian companies were locked into joint-ventures and licensing arrangements, and concentration over the seed sector increased. Second, seed which had been the farmers’ common resource became the “intellectual property” of Monsanto, for which it started collecting royalties, thus raising the costs of seed. Third, open pollinated cotton seeds were displaced by hybrids, including GMO hybrids. A renewable resource became a non-renewable, patented commodity. Fourth, cotton which had earlier been grown as a mixture with food crops now had to be grown as a monoculture, with higher vulnerability to pests, disease, drought and crop failure. Fifth, Monsanto started to subvert India’s regulatory processes and, in fact, started to use public resources to push its non-renewable hybrids and GMOs through so-called public-private partnerships (PPP).
In 1995, Monsanto introduced its Bt technology in India through a joint-venture with the Indian company Mahyco. In 1997-98, Monsanto started open field trials of its GMO Bt cotton illegally and announced that it would be selling the seeds commercially the following year. India has rules for regulating GMOs since 1989, under the Environment Protection Act. It is mandatory to get approval from the Genetic Engineering Approval Committee under the ministry of environment for GMO trials. The Research Foundation for Science, Technology and Ecology sued Monsanto in the Supreme Court of India and Monsanto could not start the commercial sales of its Bt cotton seeds until 2002.
And, after the ****ing report of India’s parliamentary committee on Bt crops in August 2012, the panel of technical experts appointed by the Supreme Court recommended a 10-year moratorium on field trials of all GM food and termination of all ongoing trials of transgenic crops.
But it had changed Indian agriculture already.
Monsanto’s seed monopolies, the destruction of alternatives, the collection of superprofits in the form of royalties, and the increasing vulnerability of monocultures has created a context for debt, suicides and agrarian distress which is driving the farmers’ suicide epidemic in India. This systemic control has been intensified with Bt cotton. That is why most suicides are in the cotton belt.
An internal advisory by the agricultural ministry of India in January 2012 had this to say to the cotton-growing states in India — “Cotton farmers are in a deep crisis since shifting to Bt cotton. The spate of farmer suicides in 2011-12 has been particularly severe among Bt cotton farmers.”
The highest acreage of Bt cotton is in Maharashtra and this is also where the highest farmer suicides are. Suicides increased after Bt cotton was introduced — Monsanto’s royalty extraction, and the high costs of seed and chemicals have created a debt trap. According to Government of India data, nearly 75 per cent rural debt is due to purchase inputs. As Monsanto’s profits grow, farmers’ debt grows. It is in this systemic sense that Monsanto’s seeds are seeds of suicide.
The ultimate seeds of suicide is Monsanto’s patented technology to create sterile seeds. (Called “Terminator technology” by the media, sterile seed technology is a type of Gene Use Restriction Technology, GRUT, in which seed produced by a crop will not grow — crops will not produce viable offspring seeds or will produce viable seeds with specific genes switched off.) The Convention on Biological Diversity has banned its use, otherwise Monsanto would be collecting even higher profits from seed.
Monsanto’s talk of “technology” tries to hide its real objectives of ownership and control over seed where genetic engineering is just a means to control seed and the food system through patents and intellectual property rights.
A Monsanto representative admitted that they were “the patient’s diagnostician, and physician all in one” in writing the patents on life-forms, from micro-organisms to plants, in the TRIPS’ agreement of WTO. Stopping farmers from saving seeds and exercising their seed sovereignty was the main objective. Monsanto is now extending its patents to conventionally bred seed, as in the case of broccoli and capsicum, or the low gluten wheat it had pirated from India which we challenged as a biopiracy case in the European Patent office.
That is why we have started Fibres of Freedom in the heart of Monsanto’s Bt cotton/suicide belt in Vidharba. We have created community seed banks with indigenous seeds and helped farmers go organic. No GMO seeds, no debt, no suicides.

Scimi
Reply

M.I.A.
05-09-2015, 12:43 PM
OK, the situation is artificially modified!

Its not a case of supporting a growing population. Farmers are able to make better use of land and also use more land.

...the problem is paying them enough to keep them going!!

I would love to be a free range chicken farmer.. But every word from those in the know..

Says that people would not be willing to pay for it, its not viable..

Although it is easily possible.. Comes down to cost again

Same as deforestation.. The bottom line is cost.. Planting replacement trees aught to be a requirement.

But peoples near sightedness cannot be overcome by my rose tinted glasses.

Can't even get the wife to let me keep rabbits!

Its difficult to see change without introducing tiers into the food chain..

But they already exist.

Population itself is not the problem.. Maybe a reintroduction of cooperatives.. Plantation workers.. Will create jobs and a viable method of low income support..

As well as increase in farming productivity.


Lastly even that is open to abuse, the power of landowners in places like Pakistan Is beyond belief..

Workers literally live, die and breed for the landowners.. Without seeing any of the benefit.

Probably vote under duress as well.
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Scimitar
05-09-2015, 01:29 PM
man made problems eh bro? :D

It's clear to anyone who keeps abreast of food tech, that Monsanto is the global player which seeks to control life and and death through their monoploy of seed stock.

As for their "terminator seeds", they claim that these have been banned - but in India, my families own cotton farms use Monsanto seeds which do not give off seeds of their own and so, my family is dependent on buying seed stock from Monsanto - who owns that monopolpy. I spoke to the farmers on our land and they told me that cotton production has halved since Monsanto got the monopoly... fact.

Owning non Monsanto seed stock in India is illegal - very very illegal.

Scimi
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M.I.A.
05-09-2015, 02:01 PM
Lol 0_o

...well I hope your kind in authority.



...you all need to find some free range cotton seeds!

Is the government not aware of the situation?

Wait I just reread your post..

Maybe rebel farmers will become a thing..

Be good though... Winners don't do drugs.. I'm kidding.

To be fair its all god given, we can only struggle with the things we are given.

And all things have there own time.
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Scimitar
05-09-2015, 03:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
Lol 0_o

...well I hope your kind in authority.
?? :D say wha?


format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
...you all need to find some free range cotton seeds!
No such thing today buddy - free range cotton seeds? you mean organic - and no, these you can't get either... Monsanto OWNS cotton seeds, don't you get it yet bro? lol

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
Is the government not aware of the situation?
You really think the bent Indian govt. care? They take bribes to seel their mothers if the money is good enough. They already sold out their "mother india", or was you not aware of that :D

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
Wait I just reread your post..

Maybe rebel farmers will become a thing..
No such thing lol - you're either buying monsanto seeds or you are counting sheep.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
Be good though... Winners don't do drugs.. I'm kidding.
Winners do drugs :D but they cheat... lol what's your point? price of peas?

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
To be fair its all god given, we can only struggle with the things we are given.

And all things have there own time.
Some people are known to eff with DNA and splicing - you think that has to do with God? Really?

Whether it's a cloned sheep or GMO - the idea is the same, it's genetic manipulation, man playing God - and it is wrong. No matter how one tries to justify it..

Scimi
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Futuwwa
05-09-2015, 04:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Sister herbs argument is that the worlds crop peoduction cannot support humanity in the modern age, my argument is simple - get rid of monsanto then, their seeds have lowered global crop production by almost 30 % and the wastage is phenomenal.

Like I said, investigate.

Scimi
Let's say you are right. Let's say that lost 30% is recovered. How would you feed 678 trillion people with contemporary world food production plus a recovered 30% loss?
Reply

Scimitar
05-09-2015, 04:22 PM
answer is in the quote bro MIA :D lol...

Scimi

EDIT: I meant bro Futuwwa...
Reply

M.I.A.
05-09-2015, 05:42 PM
I can picture it now, people smuggling seeds through customs.

Pppssst.... Pssstt...

Wanna buy some seeds?

Might just catch on.

Police on TV showing fields and fields of illegal cotton.

Do it bro.


Doooo it. Lol.

Guberment raids on cotton mills... **** honestly.

Some one somewhere must have organic cotton seeds.. You just need to "procure" them.


Also on a serious note, how would anybody be able to tell the difference from branded cotton and organic?

Went over your posts in the thread, keep up the good work.

Good on ya.
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Scimitar
05-10-2015, 12:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
Also on a serious note, how would anybody be able to tell the difference from branded cotton and organic?
I think, once it's gone thru a process, it's all the same to wear - essentially, the cotton seeds monsanto monopolized were supposed to yield higher and have higher resistance to pests and fungi - except monsanto failed to deliver on promise and instead, sold terminator seeds illegally... farmers in India are committing suicide at an average of 30 lives a day, that's a staggering figure. It's actually quite concerning that the Indian govt. haven't banned Monsanto seed stock yet. Can't say I'm surprised though - India is a bent country, full of bribes and back handers, where even those who are elected for govern-ship are nowt but gangsters trying to legitimize their existence...

Scimi
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ardianto
05-10-2015, 08:12 AM
Predicted, in 2050 Indonesia will lost its title as the country with largest number of Muslims. Not because conversion to other religions, but because Indonesia's birth rate is lower than India and Pakistan. So, in 2050 the title of country with the largest numbers of Muslims will be held by non-Muslim country, .... India!. The Muslim country itself, Pakistan, will be in second position.

But I do not mind if Indonesia must lost its title. The challenge for Indonesian Muslims is not how to add the quantity, but how to improve the quality of Indonesian Muslims.
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Scimitar
05-10-2015, 12:16 PM
it's the same everywhere bro, Muslims need to improve the quality of their Islam... we're nothing but the scummy froth that floats above the oceans at this point in time.

Scimi
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M.I.A.
05-10-2015, 01:09 PM
Haha.

Well I'm glad that's thats how we chose to be remembered...

Might as well give up and go back to sleep.
Reply

Scimitar
05-10-2015, 02:47 PM
ah bro MIA, you were probably unaware of the subtle reference in my post to this hadeeth:

Thawdan (RAT) narrated "Allah’s Messenger, peace and blessings be upon him, said, ‘Imminently, there will come a time when the nations gather against you, just as people gather around a feast.’ A man said, ‘Will it be because we are few at that time, O Allah’s Messenger?’ He responded, ‘No, you will be numerous in those times, but you will be as useless as the scum of the sea, and Allah will remove the fear that your enemies used to posses from you from their chests, and He will place al-Wahn in your hearts’, it was said, ‘What is al-Wahn?’, he responded, ‘Love of life, and hatred of death.’” [Ahmad, Abu Dawud]

Let's examine this hadeeth:

1) imminently, there will come a time when the nations gather against you, just as people gather around a feast...

PIC: United Nations Assembly deciding the fate of Syria. Just one example out of hundreds.



2: No, you will be numerous at those times but will be as useless as the scum of the sea... today we are exactly that. We don't have a khalipha, nor do we have leaders in our Islamic nations whom we can trust, neither do we have any sort of sens of community when we are segregated into landmasses with physically defined borders - despite the fact that in Islam, there is no idea of nations but one collective Ummah. Strange times eh? Stranger times will return us back to the genesis of Islamic teachings soon in sha Allah.

3: and Allah will remove the fear that your enemies used to posses from you from their chests, and He will place al-Wahn in your hearts’, it was said, ‘What is al-Wahn?’, he responded, ‘Love of life, and hatred of death

Pretty much self explanatory... just take a look at our collective state.

Scimi
Reply

M.I.A.
05-10-2015, 04:43 PM
Death is not a bad thing..

I just don't want to bury anyone..

That's not a twisted genie wish.

I was aware of the hadith.. Although it makes me wonder what good news and glad tidings sounds like.

:)
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sister herb
05-10-2015, 06:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by new2010
Sometimes I am wondering whether we really have sufficient thrust in our Rabb? There are problems, but nature has nothing to do with it. Allah is almighty and he's able to feed 10^∞ people! Again: it's not nature it's us!
I partly agree with this. If we humans would treat the nature well, protect it from the waste what too crowded cities product, find new ways to grow our foods, stop wasting the natural resources, accept the lower standards of living and economic growth etc etc. we could provide good living conditions to our children world wide. Unfortunately we don´t do so.

We are wasting resources, pollute the environment, spoil the oceans, we kill animals to extinction, pollute the air, we use non-renewable resources, and we believe that we can continue in the same way forever. In addition, we are growing exponentially and every new generation will consumes the environment more than the previous.

We are like a bad farmer who mismanages his crops.
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greenhill
05-11-2015, 01:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
If we humans would treat the nature well, protect it from the waste what too crowded cities product, find new ways to grow our foods, stop wasting the natural resources, accept the lower standards of living and economic growth etc etc. we could provide good living conditions to our children world wide. Unfortunately we don´t do so.
format_quote Originally Posted by Futuwwa
so you have no argument to make
The argument is quite clear, I thought... :p

It is not the fact that we cannot produce enough to feed (but then again Allah determines this as He says how He turns barren lands into 'life' again) it is the sheer wastefulness of human beings and I'd like to add politics too that interferes in the free flow of produce to where it is needed, via embargoes, trade actions etc.

Ultimately, as sister verb says, we could feed the increased world population IF we got our act together. But that is a different story altogether. I could witness a man starving to death next to me and I am eating my fill, totally ignoring him... in fact I didn't even finish my meal and left it there to go to waste when I could have shared my meal with him... this is the state of the world today, where what I earn is my right and the fact that my neighbor cannot earn is his bad luck, nothing to do with me.

What I am trying to say here is the fact that there is enough to go around, but people make it such that not everyone will get what they need. Is that a 'real' natural limitation or man made barrier?

:peace:
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ardianto
05-11-2015, 01:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
Futuwwa is in denial of organisations such as Monsanto and has no faith that Allah is the provider and sustainer of all creation, thus he wrongfully believes that Allah has built a faulty model of earth which cannot contain its inhabitants..
If you do an effort to get sustenance, In Shaa Allah, then Allah will give you easiness to get sustenance. But before you reached the age when you are able to seek an income, your father must fulfill your needs, didn't he?. Now imagine if a father must feed 20 kids. He would get headache, bro!.

Indeed, if someone get married and then has child, Allah will gives him easiness to get sustenance if he does an effort. But it doesn't mean if he has 20 kids then he get easiness 20 times than a man who has only one kid. Notice the big families in slum area. Does have much kids makes them richer than people with few kids?.

So it's better if you try to use your mind to understand what "Allah is the provider and sustainer of all creation" means. Not just swallow what people say without you understand the wisdom behind it.

About earth. Allah has built earth that can accommodate its inhabitants. But its inhabitants is not only human, but also animals and plants. If population of human is too much, then human will occupy the area which actually provided for animals and plants. Yeah, bro, how many forests that have been disappeared, how many animals that have been extinct because human?.
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M.I.A.
05-11-2015, 01:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by greenhill
The argument is quite clear, I thought... :p

It is not the fact that we cannot produce enough to feed (but then again Allah determines this as He says how He turns barren lands into 'life' again) it is the sheer wastefulness of human beings and I'd like to add politics too that interferes in the free flow of produce to where it is needed, via embargoes, trade actions etc.

Ultimately, as sister verb says, we could feed the increased world population IF we got our act together. But that is a different story altogether. I could witness a man starving to death next to me and I am eating my fill, totally ignoring him... in fact I didn't even finish my meal and left it there to go to waste when I could have shared my meal with him... this is the state of the world today, where what I earn is my right and the fact that my neighbor cannot earn is his bad luck, nothing to do with me.

What I am trying to say here is the fact that there is enough to go around, but people make it such that not everyone will get what they need. Is that a 'real' natural limitation or man made barrier?

:peace:
Its god given.

..its like helping the homeless.

Its OK when you go to them.

...but its very different when they come to you.

Its like people have a habit of shooting themselves in there own foot.

...here have my foot.

I already paid zakat! ..plz don't take my lunch money.

Charity collectors are like busses.. You wait for ages and then three turn up one after the other.

I am apparently rich..

And should check my entitlement.

...and probably getting a slap for back biting lol.

I don't get it.

But we are all things to all people, don't get typecast and you should be OK..

I do agree though its all about helping people and getting them through the hard times.

...its extremely hard not to a knowledge our own imperfections when we have incompetent staff

:/

All we can do is try, Allah swt's will is always done.

He is the protector, the planner, the sustainer, the provider and so much more.
Reply

colinberry1
05-11-2015, 03:51 PM
Well I don't think you need to worry about that, our rulers will soon sort it out when they have finished with us. I don't think we have much say in the matter, but of course we can go on kidding ourselves that what we do really matters.
Reply

MuslimInshallah
05-11-2015, 04:34 PM
Assalaamu alaikum,

(smile) I have been enjoying reading your posts. (laugh) I liked some of MIA's witty comments!

Overall, though, I really question whether overpopulation is THE problem. Certainly, we can put pressure on the world around us. And Allah Commands us to be caretakers, not callous gluttons.

But I find it interesting that there is so much emphasis put on overpopulation, when the majority of the harm done to this planet is by the populations that have low birth rates. I have heard that 20% of the world's population is consuming 80% of the resources… This 20% tends to have few children. But in order to offset it's use of resources, this minority insists that the 20% that is left for others should be less used up… by the poorer people having less children.

Surely the emphasis should be on the wealthier people being less greedy?

May Allah, the Designer, Help us to understand how we need to live, in order to better live in harmony with His Will.
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Scimitar
05-11-2015, 05:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
If you do an effort to get sustenance, In Shaa Allah, then Allah will give you easiness to get sustenance. But before you reached the age when you are able to seek an income, your father must fulfill your needs, didn't he?. Now imagine if a father must feed 20 kids. He would get headache, bro!.
No... Allah provides, and even if money is little - barakah is increased in the little given... so again, you'd need to correct your understanding bro.

Would you advocate for the propagations in the Georgia Guidestones? Judging by your logic, you would prefer if human populations remained below half a billion on the planet: Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature - Georgia Guidestone

How do you respond?

Scimi
Reply

Scimitar
05-11-2015, 05:20 PM
Did not the Prophet pbuh say “Get married and multiply (have children), because I will be proud of you, in front of other nations on the Day of Judgment.”

so you can have one child families? :D uh, no... "multiply" so he can be proud of the number of Muslims over the other nations on the day of judgement... why go against what the Prophet pbuh told you???? Why try to justify your world view without the Quran and Sunnah? what are you hoping to achieve? Atheism? :D seriously though... you gotta have faith in Allah as the provider, Ar RAZZAQ !!!

---

Scimi
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Scimitar
05-11-2015, 05:23 PM
thread title "OVER POPULATION MAKES ME WORRY"

I tell you, seriously, it is none of your concern - this concern is Allah's alone and HE is well in control of it.

Have faith in Allah.

Scimi
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sister herb
05-11-2015, 07:59 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
But I find it interesting that there is so much emphasis put on overpopulation, when the majority of the harm done to this planet is by the populations that have low birth rates. I have heard that 20% of the world's population is consuming 80% of the resources… This 20% tends to have few children. But in order to offset it's use of resources, this minority insists that the 20% that is left for others should be less used up… by the poorer people having less children.
As you know, those less rich people whose are living in poorer countries have many kids because they need to be sure that they have someone to take care about them when they become old and can´t work for their living any more. In the rich countries, the state take care about this like by the social security system or by the retirement pensions.

About if woman would have 20 kids; I just read some studies from the news yesterday that its better for the woman´s health and as well also for the babies health if she can have 3 or 4 years between her babies. The fertile time of the woman´s life is too short for this and for having 20 kids.
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MuslimInshallah
05-11-2015, 09:19 PM
Assalaamu alaikum,

(smile) Mmm…we tend to make assumptions as to why people do and do not have children. I feel that lumping people together and trying to industrially "manage" populations is neither just nor effective. In my experience, each individual and family makes the decisions to have children (or not) based on their particular (and legitimate) needs and circumstances.

Personal desires, wars, economic circumstances, social mores, status… there are many influences on a woman of reproductive potential. I think it wiser to stop making assumptions about what "poor women" want or do (or "rich women" or "oppressed women", or however else we try to clump people together into manipulable variables). And then holding such women accountable for the ills of the world.

I think we need to look more at our own selves, and whether we are making Islamic choices (Islamic being what is in accord with His Will).

I think we also need to examine the way that corporate entities are running our world, and how we can regain control of our lives. Corporations, I believe, are a sort of Frankenstein's monster. They behave like intelligent living organisms with no moral framework except to make money and thrive. They have no empathy or remorse. They just don't care about anyone or anything. In essence they behave like the cinical definition of a psychopath.

The people who work for corporations can be caring and responsible. But they are bound by the rules of the corporation. And the corporations run according to the rules that we have set up as societies. I believe we need to look at those rules, and modify them, to tame the monsters that now rule us. This will be very hard to do, because the corporations will fight such changes every step of the way, and they are very powerful entities.

Therefore, rather than blame poor women for having too many children (or "poverty", or Muslims, or lack of a corporate education, or all the other scapegoats for the problems in our world), I believe that what would be most fruitful would be our coming together and figuring out how we can make our corporate structures less rapacious, and build in some accountability and humanity in the way we make commercial transactions.

May Allah, the Giver of Life and the Destroyer, Strengthen us in our efforts.
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ardianto
05-13-2015, 03:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
No... Allah provides, and even if money is little - barakah is increased in the little given... so again, you'd need to correct your understanding bro.
Allah will give sustenance for anyone who do an effort to seek it. But children are too young to work to seek sustenance. If you have had children then you will realize that it's better if you have just few children than have many children. Also population growth that too fast will cause difficulty for human in keeping the nature remain stable.

Would you advocate for the propagations in the Georgia Guidestones? Judging by your logic, you would prefer if human populations remained below half a billion on the planet: Maintain humanity under 500,000,000 in perpetual balance with nature - Georgia Guidestone

How do you respond?

Scimi
I do not advocate to reduce population through mass killing. I just want human aware that nature is not only for human, but also for plants and animal.


Bay the way. Out of topic. I am sorry if I am late in respond your post. I am so busy and so tired in last two days. So I lost my mood to write a post. But I will take vacation for three days to visit my aunt in a city where I ever lived there in my childhood. It's mean I will absent from forum for a while.

:)
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Signor
05-13-2015, 04:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Bay the way. Out of topic. I am sorry if I am late in respond your post. I am so busy and so tired in last two days. So I lost my mood to write a post. But I will take vacation for three days to visit my aunt in a city where I ever lived there in my childhood. It's mean I will absent from forum for a while.
Have a safe journey bro!Fee Aman Allah.
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Scimitar
05-14-2015, 11:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Allah will give sustenance for anyone who do an effort to seek it. But children are too young to work to seek sustenance. If you have had children then you will realize that it's better if you have just few children than have many children. Also population growth that too fast will cause difficulty for human in keeping the nature remain stable.
“And kill not your children for fear of poverty. We shall provide for them as well as for you.” [Surah al Israa’: 31]

Have a safe journey.

Scimi
Reply

Futuwwa
05-15-2015, 01:12 PM
You see no difference between killing your children and not having them in the first place?
Reply

greenhill
05-15-2015, 01:35 PM
I think we are assuming that we will be granted that many children. It is natural but not a 'right'. I don't believe that even if the whole world's married population tried to have 20 children (I only pick that number because since Scimi mentioned it, it shocked people enough to start this debate) too few will achieve it. I reckon between 5 and 7 will be common..

And there will be plenty that can't have any..

:peace:
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Signor
05-16-2015, 09:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
“And kill not your children for fear of poverty. We shall provide for them as well as for you.” [Surah al Israa’: 31]

Have a safe journey.
This shows one more thing,We(me and you) don't see eye to eye with Br Ardianto in this matter.However,We can agree on his kind heartedness and caring nature.:)

You know,I often wonders If Br Ardianto's real life incidents are so many,what would have happened to the bed time stories for his boys?^o)

As for number of children,I will go with Sis MI's opinion.

format_quote Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
In my experience, each individual and family makes the decisions to have children (or not) based on their particular (and legitimate) needs and circumstances.
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greenhill
05-16-2015, 10:51 AM
In all honesty, the quote in Al Israa:31 is to do with the fundamental faith we should have in Allah as the Provider. It should be like that of Mary when she was given foods out of season in her room.

However, living in this material world has limited our 'absolute' faith in receiving the bounties of Allah.

I have a natural instinct to take care of myself and family and I just cannot leave it to Allah to provide (although it is Him that provides and takes away) but I somehow or other I just can't.

So, it becomes more like me believing what Allah says, but I'm not about to put it to a test.

:peace:
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Signor
05-16-2015, 12:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by greenhill
So, it becomes more like me believing what Allah says, but I'm not about to put it to a test.
Yes bro,We have to tie our camel first.

Anas ibn Malik reported: A man said, “O Messenger of Allah, should I tie my camel and trust in Allah, or should I untie her and trust in Allah?” The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Tie her and trust in Allah.”

Source: Sunan At-Tirmidhi 2517
Grade: Hasan (fair) according to Al-Albani
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ardianto
05-17-2015, 02:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Scimitar
“And kill not your children for fear of poverty. We shall provide for them as well as for you.” [Surah al Israa’: 31]
I am really against abortion without valid reason. And of course I am against killing of baby. That ayah refer to wrong habit among people in the past which they killed newborn babies which considered as not beneficial for the parents. That ayah still relevant for abortion that happen nowadays. But actually that ayah has nothing to do with family planning because family planning actually forbid abortion.

Since I was young and unmarried I already dreamed about small family because I was sure that I could raise my children better if I had only few children. My late wife wanted to have only few children too although she had seven siblings.

If I wanted to have only few children, it's not because I was afraid of becoming poor, but because if I had only few children then I could give better attention to my children.

Have a safe journey.

Scimi
Jazak Allah Khayr, and Alhamdulillah, I am at home now.
Reply

M.I.A.
05-17-2015, 02:38 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Signor
Yes bro,We have to tie our camel first.

Anas ibn Malik reported: A man said, “O Messenger of Allah, should I tie my camel and trust in Allah, or should I untie her and trust in Allah?” The Messenger of Allah, peace and blessings be upon him, said, “Tie her and trust in Allah.”

Source: Sunan At-Tirmidhi 2517
Grade: Hasan (fair) according to Al-Albani
I find that question extremely offensive..

Although iv heard the hadith many times.

My wit would be the end of me...although not my own..

Socially awkward.
Reply

MuslimInshallah
05-17-2015, 09:37 PM
Assalaamu alaikum,

It's curious, but in many wealthy countries, there are various efforts to get women to have more children through cash incentives of various kinds or subsidized childcare.

I read some years ago that a wealthy-country person consumed 20 times the amount of an impoverished person of a nation in Africa. (smile) And this made me think of Scimi's off-hand suggestion of 20 children. Because it suddenly seemed to me that if this statistic was correct, having a wealthy-country child was equivalent to having 20 non-wealthy children… (laugh) and I suddenly though: good God, if I have 6 children, does that mean I'm burdening the earth with the equivalent of 120 children?!

So I looked around the internet a bit. I didn't find the 20-for-1 reference, but I did come across some data compiled by the Global Footprint Network, which looks at various countires' use of resources, tracks them over time, and compares them. After reading the legal fineprint for how I could use this data, I was a bit concerned that I might have trouble using it directly. So I decided to draw on the 2007 data posted on Wikipedia. Each country's footprint is expressed in global hectares/person (gha/p) for the year (a hectare (10, 000 square meters) is about the size of a soccer field).

Fascinatingly, the world's top consumers are in the Gulf states. UAE, Qatar and Bahrain all clocked in at over 10 gha/p. Canada (my country) was 8th on the list of top consumers at 7,01 gha/p. The UK was listed further down with 4.89, Indonesia was 1.21, Pakistan was 0.77, and Puerto Rico was the least consuming country at 0.04 gha/p.

A quick calculation yielded that 1 Canadian used as much as over 5 Indonesians or 9 Pakistanis or… 175 Puerto Ricans! Yikes!

Birth rates are not the whole story, though. When I immigrated to Canada 30-some years ago, there were about 24 million Canadians. Since then, the population has soared to over 35 million. When people come here, they are very eager to get the wealthiest kind of lifestyle that they can get (irregardless of what their previous level was). (sigh) It's our greedy human nature. Looking at the most-consuming populations on this planet, then, I cannot but help come to the conclusion that the biggest problem right now is our human greed, and the fact that more and more people are accessing wasteful lifestyles.

Yes, local people can degrade their local environments. But it is a truth that a lot of resources are being seized by large corporations and local peoples are losing their means of subsistence (in all countries). From internal pressures like the desire for more, and external pressures like the inability to subsist off the local resources, people move, often to large cities, and wealthier nations. These migrants put pressure on the new locales' resources, as witnessed by Ardianto. They also lose their traditional networks of support, and families become more vulnerable (and this is true in wealthier countries, too), and children of migrants are more likely to have problems such as addictions, family violence, neglected children and mental health problems (and these have also been touched upon by Ardianto).

Just targeting poor women and telling them to have less children will not really help. This is why I believe we need to look at our own human desire for more, and how we can individually live lives less wasteful. As it says in the Qur'an 6:141

Yusuf Ali:
It is He Who produceth gardens, with trellises and without, and dates, and tilth with produce of all kinds, and olives and pomegranates, similar (in kind) and different (in variety): eat of their fruit in their season, but render the dues that are proper on the day that the harvest is gathered. But waste not by excess: for Allah loveth not the wasters.

But just looking at an individual's actions is not enough. There are many individuals who would like to live differently, but find themselves constrained (and oppressed) by laws that favour large corporations (as touched upon by Scimi). And this is why I feel that we also need to look at the laws that regulate corporations, and those laws that have been designed to favour corporations over non-corporate commercial entities (like individuals trying to earn a small profit to live off).

(smile) And as always, I love the gentle posts by Sister Herb. I feel she has another piece of the puzzle. Her home-baking and gardening and crafts are a few of the ways that we can live less-wasteful, healthier, more Islamic… and happier lives.


May Allah, the Designer Who Knows something about us that the angels do not know, Guide us to ways that Please Him.
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