New user here

[Cautatorul]

Hello there everyone. I am a new user from Romania, and I am here to discover more things about Islam, being my second favourite religion after my Christianity. I am in love with islamic art, calligraphy and the simplicity of the religion, the oneness of God you preach and etc, I have always been in love with the Middle-East and I have always been fighting against those who claim muslims are terrorists and Quran preaches violence. I hope you can answer my doubts and we will spen a nice time here!

God bless you.

[greenhill]

Welcome to the forum.

Interesting intro to self. Do browse through the forum and post your questions on the topics discussed. I'm sure you'll have your say..

Wishing you a great stay.


:peace:

[Signor]

Hi Cautatorul

Welcome to the forum.

When I think of Romania,memories of an old friend comes to mind who was an orthodox christian,a God-fearing man and most importantly he rejects concept of Trinity which makes him more dear to me.As Qur'an(3:64) said:

Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word that is equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and not associate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah."

Also Romania is the home of my all time-favorite book on the Life of Prophet Muhammad(SAWWS) namely La vie de Mahomet by former diplomat Constantin Virgil.He explains Arabian context of prophet's time so brilliantly.I invite you to have a look at his book.

You can see,I've nothing but good things to say about your country except Vampires Mythology which originates from the same land as well.

Have a great stay!

[Cautatorul]

I am an Orthodox christian too! I actually am studying for becoming an orthodox priest, but I am here to learn more about you my muslim brothers!

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[strivingobserver98]

Hi welcome to the forum.

So you like Caligraphy? Here's some calligraphy made by my friend made with beneficial messages hope you like them :).

[Cautatorul]

So beautiful! What I always liked about Islam is its purity and cleanliness, you can only write God, not associate something with God, or the prophet, or anything else...

[Lisa921]

welcome cautatoral!
May Allah guide you. Ameen
I hope you have a beneficial time here and share what you know as well as ask us questions so that we can discuss and learn from you.
thanks
lisa

[TahaSaeed]

AOA I am Taha Saeed

[Umm Abed]

Welcome to the forum - and welcome to Islam :)

May you accept Islam and become a great scholar one day.

Enjoy your stay.

[Cautatorul]

Oh thank you all for all the welcoming and the greetings, but the truth is that I already found the truth on the original Church of Christ, the Orthodox Church and I'm very convinced of my religion, I would give my life for my faith and for Christ, my God, but that doesn't mean I can't have a nice time talking with my muslims brothers around the earth ;) We are all humans and brothers!

[Insaanah]

Welcome to the forum Cautatorul. Nice to have you. Hope you'll enjoy being here and learn lots.

the truth is that I already found the truth on the original Church of Christ, the Orthodox Church and I'm very convinced of my religion, I would give my life for my faith and for Christ, my God

As you know, as Muslims, we have a very firm, clear, simple, pure, logical concept of the Oneness of God, that resonates with the heart, mind, and soul. This is one of the things that differentiates and distinguishes Islam from all the other religions out there.

You may know, that as Muslims, we believe in all the prophets of God. Allah sent a succession of prophets to people throughout the ages, to convey His message to them, and with guidance to show people how He wants them to live and worship Him. Muslims believe in all the prophets Allah sent, and do not reject or blaspheme any of them, from Adam, to the last and final prophet, Muhammad, peace be on them all. They were the purest and noblest of humanity and were not divine in any way. Allah sent all the prophets with the same message and not different messages. The message was: to submit wholeheartedly to Allah and worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in, or parts to, His Exclusive Divinity, and to obey the prophet. They taught that people should be under no misperception that they can commit themselves to Allah as their Lord, and then combine this with accepting others as their Lord, or associating others in His Divinity, in whatever way. They taught that we should strive hard to translate our belief in the One True God into practice, by obeying Allah and the messengers He sent, who were also role models and examples for us, showing us practically how to put the guidance they were sent with into practice in our daily lives, explaining the scriptures, warning against wrong-doing, giving good tidings, and giving additional legislation from Allah.

So Islam is not a new faith, but is the same ultimate universal truth that God revealed to all the prophets, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be on them), and the same thing they all taught. Thus Islam is not named after a specific person (like Christianity, Buddhism), nor after a certain race or place (like Judaism, Hinduism), but is named by God Himself, the meaning loosely translating as 'submission to God', which is what every Prophet and their righteous followers did, from amongst all times, places and peoples. That in itself is one fraction of the evidence that it was the way of all the Prophets from the beginning.

With time, the message got forgotten or corrupted. So people started worshipping other gods along with Him, made idols, said that God begot a son, said that certain people were incarnations of God, some rejected belief in God altogether, while others elevated the status of some prophets to divine, or at the other end, rejected or blasphemed some of the prophets. Whenever God's message got distorted by people, or forgotten, a new messenger was sent, not with any new or changed message, but reinforcing the actual message that God sent all the messengers with, the actual core beliefs that people were taught from the beginning of humanity, confirming the true parts of previous teachings and scriptures, and correcting wrong beliefs and misconceptions that had crept in.

God required that whenever He sent a new messenger, that messenger should be followed along with any new scripture given to him. This chain of messengers culminates in prophet Muhammad (peace on him), who is the last and final prophet and messenger. Since his prophethood, God's message is available unchanged and unadulterated, for the entire world, until the end of time. He wasn't sent as prophet and messenger for a specific group of people and specific time (e.g. as Moses and Jesus were to the Children of Israel), but he was sent for all the world, for all time, until the Day of Judgement. Thus he is the last, not first, prophet of Islam; a messenger to all mankind, for now, and for all time to come. He is the messenger who must now be followed.

JESUS - Muslims love and respect Jesus (peace be upon him) and believe in him as he was; one of the noblest and purest of humanity to ever walk the earth, and one of the greatest messengers of Allah, sent to the Children of Israel. We do not reject him (as Jews do), nor do we deify him (as Christians do). Neither he, nor any other messenger, ever claimed divinity, or to be God's son. We believe he was born miraculously of the noble virgin Mary (peace be on her), and that he is the messiah. We do not however, believe that he died or was crucified. He'll return to earth near the end of time.

Interestingly, many Muslims who were previously Christians, say they feel they are following Jesus (peace be on him) more, honouring and loving him more, and feel closer to him now, than when they were Christians.

These are our main beliefs about God:

There is only One God. He alone should be worshipped. He is our Creator, Sustainer, and Lord.

He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, daughters, spouses, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any sort.

He is eternal and does not die. He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need.

There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, Incomparable, the Creator of the Universe.

He did not/does not, become flesh, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, nor any intermediaries. And no denying of God's existence either.

There are no sharers, associates, persons or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.

As you can see, the concept is clear, simple, logical, makes sense, and befits the Majesty of God. The proper name of God in Arabic is Allah.

You believe that Jesus (peace be on him) is your God. But on the day of Judgement, God will have a conversation with Jesus (peace be on him), which is laid out for us in the Qur'an:

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as gods besides Allah?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness.

If You should punish them - indeed they are Your servants; but if You forgive them - indeed it is You who is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. (5:116-118)

Note that Allah refers to Jesus (peace be on him) as son of Mary, not "My son". Note also, that Jesus (peace be on him) clearly says that he had no right to say such a thing.

We hope you will reflect. Associating others in God's Exclusive Divinity is the biggest sin than one can commit. The door to the right way, the straight and true path is always wide open, and we hope you will enter through it soon, before death when it will be too late. Jesus (peace on him) is not God, Moses (peace on him) is not God, Muhammad (peace and blessings on him) is not God, neither is anybody else, such as other religions believe e.g. Krishna. Only God, Glorified and Exalted be He, is God.

If you are worried about the issue of salvation, then I can explain that to you in a separate post.

Peace.

[Cautatorul]

I understand your views and I respect you and Islam, but clearly you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. We do not asocciate God with anyone, God is ONE, the One True God, our Creator, but within three persons, sharing the same essence. To help you understand, imagine a flame: The flame itself is God the Father, the flame's light is Jesus Christ and the flame's heat is the Holy Ghost, but there is only one flame, and you can't have the flame without its heat or its light, they are all united and undivisable. I do not think Islam is the first religion of mankind, as you said, even if it seems logical to some people's ears. The full message of divinity, the godness and the image of God was Jesus Christ, you say God cannot become human, but why not? Saying that is denying God's power, God can do everything He wants within His creation or out of it. I think Muhammad was either under demonic deception when he wrote the Qur'an or he was very smart, and counting that he was surrounded by jews and christians, he took the ideas and the faith of those and mixed it, Islam being a syncretic religion between those two. Jesus advertised about false prophets like Muhammad coming to the world, and He said that one should never accept other Gospel than His Gospel even if an angel from Heaven comes with it, you can see those passages here:

Galatians 1:6-9
⁶ I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, ⁷ which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. ⁸ But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. ⁹ As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

Matthew 24:11
"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

Mark 13:22
22 for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.

As you see, Muhammad's coming was clearly warned by Christ, our God and our Creator. Christ's divinity is undeniable if you read the New Testament, Jesus Christ is God.
You also say that Jesus wasn't crucified but He was ascended to Heaven before dying. Yes, He was ascended to Heaven but only after He died on the Cross, He went to Hades and then resurrected, would you rather believe the Evangelists which two of them were there at the moment of the crucifixion and saw it with their own eyes or a man living in the 7th century, 600 years after Christ?
You also said the Bible was altered, that's a lie. The Bible is the best preserved book on this earth, it wasn't changed at all, and if so, show me the proofs. I have read that the Qur'an was altered too, or the Sana'a manuscript.

I am sorry if I sounded rude, it wasn't my intention, but if you say blasphemies against Jesus Christ or the Holy Trinity, God, I must defend them.

[sister herb]

I am an Orthodox christian too! I actually am studying for becoming an orthodox priest, but I am here to learn more about you my muslim brothers!

Peace with you

Are you Greek Orthodox? In my last job I got to know old lady from your religion. I was a nurse of terminal care and she was my patient. She died when she was 103 years old. Fine fine lady.

We talked a lot about hers religion and learned to respect others.

[Cautatorul]

No, I'm romanian orthodox. We do not have different religions, we are the same Orthodox Church everywhere, greek orthodox or romanian orthodox refers only to the countries, it's the same as if I say spanish muslim or russian muslim.

Another reference and explanation of the Trinity can be found at Saint Spyridon, he reportedly converted a pagan philosopher to Christianity by using a potsherd to illustrate how one single entity (a piece of pottery) could be composed of three unique entities (fire, water and clay); a metaphor for the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, making everywhere at the council in that moment believe the Trinity. You can find more information about this saint on the web if you are interested.

[Muslim Woman]

Hello

....

Matthew 24:11
"Many false prophets will arise and will mislead many.

many not All . Why do u believe Paul then ? Who was ' That ' Prophet for whom people were waiting for ?


Anyway , Introduction section is not the proper place for this kind of discussion . Pl. start a new thread if u have questions on the Last Prophet pbuh . And pl. remember , this is an Islamic forum and publicity of other religion is not allowed here.

Feel free to ask questions if u want to know the Truth .


:threadclo

[Insaanah]

I understand your views and I respect you and Islam

Which, I presume is why you say Muhammad (may the peace, blessings and salutations of Allah be on him) was under demonic deception? As Muslims, we do not blaspheme against any messenger of God. Paul who seems to be responsible for most of the erroneous beliefs in Christianity today while not being a prophet or messenger of God, we make factual statements about him, but even him, we do not use words like that for.

clearly you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity.

I do, which is why I said there are no persons to God, nor is He part of a trinity.

We do not asocciate God with anyone, God is ONE, the One True God, our Creator, but within three persons, sharing the same essence. To help you understand, imagine a flame: The flame itself is God the Father, the flame's light is Jesus Christ and the flame's heat is the Holy Ghost, but there is only one flame, and you can't have the flame without its heat or its light, they are all united and undivisable.

As soon as the word three has to enter your description of God, that oneness is lost. When Muslims say ONE, we mean ONE. No persons, no essences, nothing. Just One God, Glorified and Exalted be He above all that people associate with Him. The words two, three, four, five, seven, never enter the equation.

We have had all the analogies: the water, gas-solid-liquid one, the egg, shell-white yolk one, and also the flame-heat-light one. The three persons are distinct yet still one. I have light in my room, does that mean the roof is on fire, or that I have a flame in my room? No. Therefore light exists without any flame. I have heat in my room, does that mean something in my room is on fire? No. Heat exists without any flame. Heat and light exist by themselves separately. In the same way that Jesus (peace be on him) was created by God and was separate to God. Is the heat from a radiator in one room the same as the light from the light bulb? Nobody would walk past and say they were one. Would we say the heat of the flame is the flame? No. In the same way, we cannot and do not say that Jesus is God. Blow on a flame and it goes out. Can the existence of God be likened to such a flame? No, Glorified and Exalted be He above that.

one single entity (a piece of pottery) could be composed of three unique entities (fire, water and clay); a metaphor for the Christian doctrine of the Trinity,

Fire is not present in the pottery. Fire is a need of the pottery to make it exist. God doesn't have needs. Somebody has to apply the fire to bake the pottery, but nobody can apply anything to God to make Him happen. Clay and water are separate ingredients that are mixed by a potter, immediately meaning that implies there is someone more powerful over God, that manipulates Him, and we seek refuge from that. If someone walked past a glass of water and a pile of dust, would they say hey, these are one!? No.

Why would God give you a concept that doesn't make sense to you, doesn't agree with humans naturally, you don't understand it, can't explain it, and then tell you you have to believe in it to be saved? The answer is, He didn't. Neither did Jesus (peace be on him). We're calling you, to the true and natural religion in which you don't have to separate between your spiritual self and your logical self, where concepts make sense. We're calling you to the worship of One God other than whom nobody else is worthy of worship. The same thing preached by Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Muhammad (peace be on them all).

I do not think Islam is the first religion of mankind, as you said, even if it seems logical to some people's ears.

I am glad that you acknowledge that God would give people logical beliefs. That are clear and simple to understand.

I do not think Islam is the first religion of mankind

No prophet or messenger of God preached a trinity, what they did preach was one God without any associate in His Divinity. And that message didn't suddenly change when it cam to Jesus (peace be on him) being sent. For he preached the same thing as his brothers in Prophethood.

you say God cannot become human, but why not? Saying that is denying God's power, God can do everything He wants within His creation or out of it.

No. God cannot lie, He cannot steal, He cannot cheat, He cannot kick someone out of His Dominion. God only does things which befit His Exalted and Glorified Majesty. He does not commit lowly acts such as begetting or becoming part of what He created.

I think Muhammad was either under demonic deception when he wrote the Qur'an or he was very smart, and counting that he was surrounded by jews and christians, he took the ideas and the faith of those and mixed it, Islam being a syncretic religion between those two.

I have addressed your insult of our beloved Prophet (peace, blessings and salutataions of God be on him) at the beginning. Islam is not anything between any two, but the original truth of both. To correct you, he didn't write the Qur'an. He was illiterate. And when he first started receiving revelations he had very limited or no contact with Jews or Christians, as they lived in Madinah, not in Makkah where he was, so he was not at all familiar with their beliefs.

Jesus advertised about false prophets like Muhammad coming to the world, and He said that one should never accept other Gospel than His Gospel even if an angel from Heaven comes with it, you can see those passages here:

The passage you quoted is not Jesus (peace be on him) speaking, but Paul. And Paul here, admits that he is teaching something different to that which Jesus's disciples were preaching, and curses them. He curses those people, who lived and walked with Jesus, and learned from Jesus, so that what he was preaching, which was different and opposing from Jesus's teachings, may take superiority.

As you see, Muhammad's coming was clearly warned by Christ, our God and our Creator.

Christ is not your God and creator. And yes, Christ gave the good news of the coming of Prophet Muhammad (peace be on them both)

Christ's divinity is undeniable if you read the New Testament, Jesus Christ is God.

In fact many people who read the Bible say the conclusion is that Christ is not God, and not the son of God.

Yes, He was ascended to Heaven but only after He died on the Cross, He went to Hades and then resurrected, would you rather believe the Evangelists which two of them were there at the moment of the crucifixion and saw it with their own eyes or a man living in the 7th century, 600 years after Christ?

We believe God. Who is truer than God?

You also said the Bible was altered, that's a lie. The Bible is the best preserved book on this earth, it wasn't changed at all, and if so, show me the proofs.

Sure. Here we go:

Dr. J.K. Elliott, of the Department of Theology and Religious Studies at Leeds University, wrote an article published in The Times, London (10th Sept., 1987) entitled “Checking the Bible’s Roots”. In it, he stated that: “More than 5,000 manuscripts contain all or part of the New Testament in its original language. These range in date from the second century up to the invention of printing. It has been estimated that no two agree in all particulars. Inevitably, all handwritten documents are liable to contain accidental errors in copying. However, in living theological works it is not surprising that deliberate changes were introduced to avoid or alter statements that the copyist found unsound. There was also a tendency for copyists to add explanatory glosses[9]. Deliberate changes are more likely to have been introduced at an early stage before the canonical status of the New Testament was established.”

The author went on to explain that “no one manuscript contains the original, unaltered text in its entirety,” and that, “one cannot select any one of these manuscripts and rely exclusively on its text as if it contained the monopoly the original words of the original authors.”

he same principles of analysis which were applied to Bible manuscripts by Bible scholars and which exposed the flaws and changes, have been applied to Qur’aanic manuscripts gathered from around the world. Ancient manuscripts found in the Library of Congress in Washington, the Chester Beatty Museum in Dublin, Ireland, the London Museum, as well as Museums in Tashkent, Turkey and Egypt, from all periods of Islamic history, have been compared. The result of all such studies confirm that there has not been any change in the text from its original writing. For example, the “Institute fur Koranforschung” of the University of Munich, Germany, collected and collated over 42,000 complete or incomplete copies of the Qur’aan. After some fifty years of study, they reported that in terms of differences between the various copies, there were no variants, except occasional mistakes of copyists, which could easily be ascertained. The institute was destroyed by American bombs during the Second World War.

So, 5,000 manuscripts of the Bible, and no two of them agree, 42,000 manuscripts of the Qur'an and they are all basically the same. Subhaanallah, that is a part of the miracle of the Qur'an, that it's unchanged, the same, and fully preserved, with the original message of God for all humanity.

"O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in your religion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and a soul [created at a command] from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers. And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allah is but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposer of affairs." (Quran 4:171)

They have certainly disbelieved who say, " Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. (5:73)

Christianity may be what you've been brought up with or are comfortable with, as its familiar, its all you know, but you owe it to yourself to seriously ponder and reflect on your beliefs, and and re-evaluate and reassess the basis for your own beliefs and doctrines. And it is that to which all people are invited by the Qur'an. Your beliefs regarding God, and which faith you follow, are the biggest, most serious and most important decisions you will ever make, as this life will end one day for all of us, and our position regarding God and His messengers is what makes or breaks our hereafter, which is forever. You owe it to yourself, to not regret in the hereafter, when it'll be too late.

Peace.

[Muhammad]

Greetings Cautatorul and welcome to the forum,

It is good of you to converse with Muslims and find out more about our faith. As you said, monotheism is central to Islam. The posts above were intended to clarify Islamic beliefs for you, especially when you referred to Jesus :as: as 'God'. For Muslims, this is the greatest blasphemy, and this being an Islamic forum, we cannot accept it. This is a place where we promote the pure teachings of monotheism, as taught by all the Prophets guided by the One True God. In this vein I'd like to reply to some of the points you raised. If you have any further questions, you can make a thread in the Clarifications about Islam section.

The full message of divinity, the godness and the image of God was Jesus Christ, you say God cannot become human, but why not? Saying that is denying God's power, God can do everything He wants within His creation or out of it.

Have a look at the following post:

Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
When we say that the trinity is illogical, are we trying to comprehend God's nature within our limited scope of comprehension? Is that why we cannot comprehend trinity? Or is it because of something else?

There is a distinct difference between admitting that we cannot comprehend God's nature or appearance, and attributing something to God which defies reality. Allow me to elaborate.

1 is not equal to 3 (provided that the units are consistant). Those three units cannot operate with the same properties as the one unit. If one was equal to three then it wouldn't be one. Is this a matter of attempting to comprehend God? No, it is simply a matter of defining constant values in our universe.

According to trinitarian Christianity, God sent the Son to the world. The sender and the one being sent cannot be the same. Jesus called out to God and prayed to Him. The caller and the one being called upon cannot be the same.

So the notion that there are three persons in one God, 3 in 1, is really nothing more than polytheism, because 1 God is 1 person, not three.

Now a trinitarian may argue, "Well God can do everything. Why are you placing limits on God?"

The answer is yes, God can do anything and we are not placing limits on God, BUT within the scope of reality of our universe, certain properties are real and defined. We live in a real universe, therefore, all elements within this set must be real.

Can the immortal die? A trinitarian will say, "God can do anything" but the correct answer is no, the immortal cannot die because that defies his attribute of immortality. If you die, you aren't immortal! It's not a matter of setting limits on God, its a matter of consistency in describing our universe. Can the All-Mighty be overcome? A trinitarian would say, "God can do anything" but again, this has nothing to do with God's potential.
Death and being overcome, these are not abilites they are inabilities. Death is the inability to live, therefore, the Eternal cannot die. NOT because of any lack in His potential, but because it defies His set attributes.

Moving on, trinitarians ask muslims, "you believe in the virgin birth of Christ. If you believe in the biologically impossible, why do you blame us for believing in the mathematically impossible?"

The answer is that those two beliefs are not analogous. What the trinitarian is describing as biologically impossible is still CONCEIVABLE. We can understand the notion of God placing an already fertilized zygote within Mary, or acheiving this virgin brith through some similar mechanism. When God suspends the standard laws which govern the universe, we term this a miracle. In this case, it is a biological miracle. It is conceivable because we are not bringing equality between two unequal elements. Nor are we interchanging elements of disjoint sets. In the real universe, all properties are real. in the real universe, God is One.

But trinity is not a mathematical miracle the way that the virgin birth is a biological miracle. Trinity is inconceivable. It defies the attributes that have been set in stone. When God says He is ONE, it means He is ONE. Not three. Trinity attempts to make the Eternal/immortal die. Trinity attempts to make the unequal equal.

Such things are not properties of the universe we live in. So the trinity canot be accepted by anyone because it is logically self-contradictory. Furthermore, it finds no support in the Tanakh, the New Testament, or the Qur'an.

I think Muhammad was either under demonic deception when he wrote the Qur'an

These arguments are refuted by the Qur'an itself. Regarding the first:

And it is not the Shayatin (devils) who have brought it down.
Neither would it suit them nor are they able.
Verily, they have been removed far from hearing it.
[Qur'an 26: 210-212]

The Qur'an is a Book which falsehood cannot approach from before or behind it, sent down by the All-Wise, Worthy of all praise (Allah :swt: ). Allah :swt: has told us that it has been brought down by the trustworthy Angel Gabriel. In these verses Allah :swt: tells us that it was not the devils who brought it down. How could it be so when it is the nature of devils to corrupt and misguide people, yet the Qur'an contains words enjoining what is right and forbidding what is evil, described as light and guidance, supported with mighty proofs? The Qur'an is an upright Book enjoining man to worship Allah, be dutiful to his parents, be kind to his relatives, to the orphans, to the needy, to his neighbour, to his companion, to the traveller, to honour his guests and be kind to those under his authority.The Qur'an urges mankind to assume qualities such as humility, patience, compassion, to aspire for justice and order, to keep away from all evil and tyranny... and so much more. Do these sound like the words of devils to you?

or he was very smart, and counting that he was surrounded by jews and christians, he took the ideas and the faith of those and mixed it, Islam being a syncretic religion between those two.

As for the second claim of plagiarism, this too does not stand when one considers the facts which are numerous:

- Chapters and verses of the Qur'an were revealed in direct response or refutation to what the People of the Book (Jews and Christians) alleged or challenged. For instance, the first 61 or so verses of Surah Aal-Imran [chapter 3] were revealed in refutation of the claims by a Christian delegation from Najran, who came to Al-Madinah to argue about Prophet Jesus, claiming that he was divine and the son of Allah. Surah Al-Kahf [chapter 18] contains responses to questions posed by Jewish Rabbis to test if he was a true Prophet. They asked about the story of young men in ancient times (the People of the Cave) and about a man who travelled a great deal and reached the east and the west of the earth (Dhul Qarnayn).

- The Qur'an contains stories of Prophets and individuals which are not mentioned in the Bible. Where in the Bible do we find narratives concerning Prophet Hud, Prophet Saleh, Luqman, Khidr etc.? The Qur'an also differs from the Bible narratives in numerous places, for example, the Prophets are all described as pious role-models, not listed with sins as in the Bible.

- According to scholarly sources, there was no Arabic bible at the time of the Prophet :saws:. The Prophet :saws: was known to be illiterate and could not have read the Bible personally, nor did he have any teachers.

- Among those who converted to Islam were Jews and Christians. If the Qur'an was simply an Arabic translation of Jewish or Christian Scriptures, would that have not increased Judaism and Christianity in the region, rather than winning nearly 100% acceptance of Islam?

- Why is it in spite of being ridiculed and persecuted for nearly 13 years by his own contemporaries, the abundance of historical material on the Prophet's :saws: life, and in spite of the extensive research on his life for centuries by his severe critics, that it was not possible to discover the mysterious teacher(s) through whom he might have learned all that? Even some of his adversaries who had made this assertion, changed their minds later on and accused him, instead, of magic or being possessed by evil... etc

- It is known that some of the Qur'ânic revelations to the Prophet :saws: occurred in the presence of people. The Qur'ân was revealed over the span of 23 years, where then was that mysterious, perhaps invisible teacher? How could he have hidden himself for so long? Or how could the Prophet :saws: who was constantly surrounded by companions, able to make frequent secret visits to that mysterious teacher(s) for 23 years without even being caught once?

The list of questions and gaping holes in the borrowing theory could just keep going...

Jesus advertised about false prophets like Muhammad coming to the world, and He said that one should never accept other Gospel than His Gospel even if an angel from Heaven comes with it, you can see those passages here:

On the contrary, the coming of the Prophet :saws: was prophecised in former scriptures such that the Jews and Christians were waiting for this Prophet to come.

Deuteronomy 18:18 "I (God) will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee (Moses), and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

Read more: http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/200/

Christ's divinity is undeniable if you read the New Testament, Jesus Christ is God.

The passages from the New Testament often quoted to support this are debatable: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...tml#post137629

You also said the Bible was altered, that's a lie. The Bible is the best preserved book on this earth, it wasn't changed at all, and if so, show me the proofs.

Numerous proofs listed here: http://www.islamicboard.com/clarific...ml#post1542713

Try this one: http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...rs-market.html

I have read that the Qur'an was altered too, or the Sana'a manuscript.

Originally posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
One fallacy that many people commit in discussing the preservation of the Qur'an is ignoring its oral and educational tradition, focusing merely on the textual. The Qur'an is a living text, in that its recitation forms an integral part of the daily religious practice of each and every muslim in the world. The Imam recites from the Qur'an in the congregational prayers, and during Ramadan every year the entire Qur'an is recited from cover to cover in each mosque by the Imam from memory. Now let's take the example of the Holy Mosque in Makkah where literally millions of worshippers congregate during the prayers in Ramadan. Standing in that congregation there are countless thousands who have memorized the Qur'an and have come from every corner of the world and many more thousands who follow along with a pocket Qur'an. Even the slightest mispronunciation of a vowelization mark is instantly corrected.

Muslims everywhere memorize the Qur'an, many millions memorizing the entire Qur'an from cover to cover, such that Huffaadh (singl. Hafidh - one who has memorized the entire Qur'an by heart) are ubiquitous within the muslim community. It is not uncommon nor surprising to find children even as young as six or seven or younger who have completed their memorization of the entire Qur'an. If all the books in the entire world were to be lost or destroyed, only the Qur'an would be recovered letter for letter as it is preserved in the hearts of so many millions.

As far as the textual history goes, I'd like to mention a few points. The criteria used in the compilation of the Qur'an was that for each verse there had to be at least two witnesses, each of whom having not only memorized the verse (since practically all the companions had memorized the Qur'an) but had with them the parchment on which they recorded the verse in the presence of the Prophet himself. Uthman ordered the writing of several other copies of the text and sent them to the major cities, each accompanied with a knowledgeable recitor from amongst the companions to teach the people...

More details about the compilation of the Qur'an: Who wrote the Qur’aan and how was it put together?