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mahmoud2015
07-19-2015, 09:26 PM
Alsalam alikum everyone

I have joined this forum to seek guidance and knowledge in regards to the sunni madhabs.

I am 28 years old, and have been a shia all my life. I have always been a strong shia unshakable in my beliefs although there were questionable actions of some in the community which i disregarded as misguidance and blamed it on ignorance of the teachings. It was only this year that i have that i have come across certain information that began me to question everything. It was always my belief that the only difference in salah between shia and sunnah was the act of folding the hands,however when i came across someone and we sat down to compare there were quite a few differences even in the way of recitation of the salam and suraht al fatiha in third and fourth rukaa. As a shia we were never told or taught about reciting suraht alfatiha in the third and fourth rukaa but only tasbeeh, which began my journey of research. Also of shia do not know what i found out that it is mustahab for shia to recite suraht al fatiha in the 3rd and 4th rukaa but were never told this directly, it took me hours to come across this information. I felt this was due to perhaps maintain segregation and difference.I went on to study especially the controversial issues such as fasting in ashura, the infallibility of the imams, the opinion of the sahaba. The more i learn the more confused i became, because as a shia i did not know any of this. And some of these issues are hidden or not spoken of yet they are major parts of the madhab. This confusion left me in a state of loss and chose to do istikhara, 4 of them to be precise, 2 are khira(shia version of istikhara) 2 istikhara. All 4 pointed me towards sunnah, which made me take the leap of faith without further study. However as i made the leap, i faced 4 doors, 4 madhabs each so extensive and rich in history, which left me overwhelmed on what to choose where to start studying.

Thus i am here to learn from everyone and to gain understanding of the madhabs and inshallah i will be able to choose a school of thought.

Also i would call my self sunni now however i am not part of any school as of yet, but i have learnt alot about shiaism, and i understand why many sunni brothers would say they are mushriks kafirs etc. I would like to say this, me and my family when i was shia, we did everything to be closer to allah, the flavors of shirk never went well with us and what we see in ashura of blood and other activities we didnt agree with, but that is because we genuinely believed some of these acts and thoughts were misguidance and not part of the madhab, only i realised it was part of it, and infact me disagreeing with some of the things,makes me a deviant from shia. However, due to this, i would call the shia misguided, lied to, kept away from truth, but not kufar and mushrikeen. Just like sunnah, all they want is to worship allah and seek his forgiveness, however, they have been told certain ways can achieve that faster, such as beating your chest.

Anyways, it would be nice to talk to some of you,also if you have any questions about my experience as a shia, or questions in regards to their school of thought please do ask, and i will ask in return and inshallah allah will guide us all on the right path

ws
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Vlad
07-19-2015, 09:42 PM
Also i would call my self sunni now however i am not part of any school as of yet
__________________________________________________ _____________________

Why do you want to be the part of any school of thought?

In the famous words of Imam Abu Haneefah : “If the hadeeth is saheeh then that is my madhhab.” And he said: “It is not permissible for anyone to follow what we say if they do not know where we got it from.” According to another report he said: “It is haraam for the one who does not know my evidence to issue a fatwa based on my words.” And according to another report he added: “We are human, we may say something today and retract it tomorrow.” And he said: “If I say something that goes against the Book of Allaah or the report of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), then ignore what I say.”

Imam Maalik (may Allaah have mercy on him) nailed it: “I am only human, sometimes I make mistakes and sometimes I get things right. Look at my opinion and whatever is in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, take it, and whatever is not in accordance with the Qur’aan and Sunnah, ignore it.” And he said: “There is no one after the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) whose words cannot be taken or left, apart from the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).”

Sincere piece of advise by Imam al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) : “There is no one who will not be unaware of some of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Whatever I say or whatever guidelines I establish, if there is a report from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which is different to what I said, then what matters is what the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, and that is my opinion.”

Last but not least, the opinion of our master Imam Ahmad : “Do not follow me blindly and do not follow Maalik or al-Shaafa’i or al-Awzaa’i or al-Thawri blindly. Learn from where they learned.” And he said: “The opinion of al-Awzaa’i and the opinion of Maalik and the opinion of Abu Haneefah are all mere conjecture and it is all the same to me. Rather evidence is to be found in the reports – i.e., in the shar’i evidence.”
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mahmoud2015
07-19-2015, 09:49 PM
Good question brother. One problem with not choosing a madhab is how we preform the prayer, Although it is the same there are certain aspects that differ. For example, in hanbali and shafi schools, during prayer, everytime you do takbir, you must raise the hands adjacent to your ears whereas in hanafi that is not required, another example is beggning suraht al fatiha in hanbali and shafi with bismillah alrahman alrahim, where as hanafi do not. Suraht al fatiha in 3rd and 4rd rukaa is compulsory in hanbali school while hanafi, if your traveling or in a state of haste, you can subhannallah 3 times rather than fatiha. Its these little differences, and i cant pick and mix i do not feel it is right. There are different issues too but i just mentioned prayer for now
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Vlad
07-19-2015, 09:51 PM
Originally Posted by mahmoud2015
Good question brother. One problem with not choosing a madhab is how we preform the prayer, Although it is the same there are certain aspects that differ. For example, in hanbali and shafi schools, during prayer, everytime you do takbir, you must raise the hands adjacent to your ears.
Wrong.

He(Prophet Muhammad) used to raise his hands when he stood up from rukoo’ (reported by al-Bukhaari and Muslim), and this raising of the hands is mutawaatir (reported by so many to so many that it is inconceivable that they could all have agreed on a lie).
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mahmoud2015
07-19-2015, 09:55 PM
thank you brother, thats the kind of help i need :), so the raising of the hands is not compulsory
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Vlad
07-19-2015, 09:56 PM
You have certainly no excuse whatsoever for not following Ahadiths. Imam Abu Haneefah lived at the time of tribulation so the other Imams and it was impossible for them to have the collection of all Saheeh Ahadiths.
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Vlad
07-19-2015, 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by mahmoud2015
thank you brother, thats the kind of help i need :), so the raising of the hands is not compulsory
You should strive to make your prayer like the prayer of the Prophet(PBUH).

“Pray as you have seen me praying.” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 631).
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Vlad
07-19-2015, 09:59 PM
Imaam al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) said: “The scholars are agreed that if the Sunnah of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) becomes clear to a person, it is not permissible for him to ignore it in favour of the opinion of anyone.”
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mahmoud2015
07-19-2015, 10:10 PM
What must i do from this point forward?
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Vlad
07-19-2015, 10:14 PM
Originally Posted by mahmoud2015
What must i do from this point forward?
Seek guidance from Ulamas whose opinions are based on the evidence, analogies, following the general principles of sharee’ah(Quran and Ahadees), if the verdict of XYZ Alim contradict Saheeh Ahadees then preference should be given to Ahadees and those Ulama who adhere to the established Sunnah.
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Vlad
07-19-2015, 10:21 PM
Ahl ul-sunnah wal-jamaa'ah:

http://islamqa.info/en/159
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mahmoud2015
07-19-2015, 10:23 PM
Thank you for your help brother
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Vlad
07-19-2015, 10:26 PM
No problem brother, any rational person who follow any religion would also prefer to follow the guidelines laid down by its founder.


And let those who oppose the Messenger’s commandment beware, lest some fitnah (trial, affliction, etc.) befall them or a painful torment be inflicted on them.” [al-Nur 24:63]

But no, by your Lord, they can have no Faith, until they make you [Muhammad] judge in all disputes between them, and find in themselves no resistance against your decisions, and accept (them) with full submission.” [al-Nisaa’ 4:65]
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Vlad
07-19-2015, 10:32 PM
May ALLAH help us in following the established Sunnah of the Prophet, and prevent us from the Fitnah of Extremism and Modernize Islam.
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AabiruSabeel
07-20-2015, 03:52 AM
:salam:

Please read the thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/methodol...-scholars.html


Contrary to popular belief, a madhhab isn’t merely an opinion. A madhhab is a methodology, a framework of usool, based on which its scholars derive the rulings from the Qur'an and Sunnah. Each madhab has well defined Usool, that had been derived and refined over the centuries, and scholars have always stuck to this methodology.
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mahmoud2015
07-20-2015, 08:02 AM
alsalam alikum

Thank you brother ibn adam, that was alot of great information it helped alot and cleared a few things in mind
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Vlad
07-20-2015, 10:12 AM
http://www.islamicboard.com/methodol...-scholars.html

If a person does not confine himself to one madhhab he will ultimately fall prey to the evil of his nafs. He will always be looking for what suits his whims and desires.
__________________________________________________ _________________________

Subhanallah so if a person follows Ulamas who take guidance from Saheeh Ahadees he will ultimately fall prey to the evil of the nafs? The extreme you guys would go to reject Ahadees in favour of an Imam(not all the opinions and views of the Hanafi madhhab that is named after Imam Abu Haneefah are the words of Abu Haneefah himself) is astonishing!
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Vlad
07-20-2015, 10:31 AM
Each imam issued fatwas on the basis of the evidence that reached him. A hadeeth may have reached Imam Maalik on the basis of which he issued fatwas, that did not reach Abu Haneefah, so he issued fatwas stating something different, and vice versa. Similarly a hadeeth may have reached Abu Haneefah with a saheeh isnaad so he issued fatwas on that basis, and the same hadeeth may have reached Imam al-Shaafa’i with a different isnaad that was da’eef (weak), so he did not issue fatwas based on it, or he may have issued a fatwa saying something that went against the hadeeth based on the conclusion he reached. This is why differences arose among the scholars, but ultimately the point of reference is the Qur’aan and Sunnah.
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InToTheRain
07-20-2015, 01:22 PM
:salam:

You may find this helpful:

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/ahm/newmadhh.htm

http://www.masud.co.uk/ISLAM/nuh/madhhab.htm


It's important to understand it's not possible to follow every Sahih Hadith example the Hanafi school do not say Surah Fatihah when praying behind an Imam but the those who follow the Shafi school of thought do; both of these practices can be backed by Sahih hadiths and both are equally valid. All Madhabs back their practices using Sahih Hadiths. All 4 boats (Madhabs) go to the same destination and are on the same path. There is an intrinsic mercy in following Madhabs as you accept opinions of others of your faith even though their practice slightly differs from yours. The Sahabas themselves differed in opinion nor were they always aware of every saying of Mohammad(SAW) and they lived through great tribulations however we do not doubt their credibility in passing teaching from Mohammad(SAW) to Tabi-een like Abu Hanifa(RA) however we do doubt the credibility of one who claims to know better then they did! Rather there are more than one correct answer.

More about Ikhtilaaf:
http://masud.co.uk/ISLAM/misc/ikhtilaf.htm

Also as the article mentions that Madhabs have evolved over the centuries and the great scholars who were part of it simply did not remain stagnant:

The evolution of the Four Schools did not stifle, as some Orientalists have suggested,[39] the capacity for the refinement or extension of positive law.[40] On the contrary, sophisticated mechanisms were available which not only permitted qualified individuals to derive the Shariah from the Quran and Sunnah on their own authority, but actually obliged them to do this. According to most scholars, an expert who has fully mastered the sources and fulfilled a variety of necessary scholarly conditions is not permitted to follow the prevalent rulings of his School, but must derive the rulings himself from the revealed sources. Such an individual is known as a mujtahid,[41] a term derived from the famous hadith of Muadh ibn Jabal.[42]

I would recommend you follow a Madhab which you can easily refer when needed; maybe an imam of your local Mosque. We need to refer to experts and follow them, make Taqleed on scholars of Madhabs, as it's not feasable for every Muslim to peruse thousands of Hadiths and become experts in fiqh in order to follow Islam properly! Regarding when one should make Taqleed:

In “Al-Taqih Wal-Mutafaqah”, Khateeb Baghdadi writes:

“There are two kinds of legal commands:

i) Those that are known to be essential part of religion, like five times salah, zakah, fasting during Ramadhan, Hajj, unlawful nature of adultery, consumption of wine and other such things. Since everyone has knowledge of these things, so taqleed is not proper in this kind.

ii) Those that cannot be known without concentration and deduction, like the branch issues of worship, mutual dealings and marriage. In this kind, taqleed is proper because Allah سبحانه و تعالى has said:

'So ask the people (having knowledge) of the Message, if you don’t know' (16:43)

Besides, if we disallow taqleed in these branch issues of religion then it would require everyone to pursue the sciences of religion. If that is made necessary for the people then all the necessities of life will be ruined. Fields and cattle will be ignored. So, such a command cannot be given.”
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Vlad
07-20-2015, 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by InToTheRain
I would recommend you follow a Madhab which you can easily refer when needed; maybe an imam of your local Mosque. We need to refer to experts and follow them, make Taqleed on scholars of Madhabs, as it's not feasable for every Muslim to peruse thousands of Hadiths and become experts in fiqh in order to follow Islam properly!
It's feasable for every muslim to pursue Ulamas who adhere to Saheeh Ahadees and has no excuse whatsoever to reject them in favour of opinions of other Ulamas.

Originally Posted by InToTheRain
Regarding when one should make Taqleed:
And yet it was al Khateeb al-Baghdadi who said:

Allaah has made these people – Ahl al-Hadeeth – the pillars of sharee’ah, and He has destroyed through them all abhorrent innovations. They are the trustees of Allaah among His creation, the intermediaries between the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and his ummah. They are the ones who are striving hard to protect his religion; their light is shining, their virtues are well known, the signs of their sincerity are obvious, their way is prevailing, and their evidence is supreme. Every group has its own focal point which is based on whims and desires, apart from the people of hadeeth, whose reference point is the Qur’aan, whose evidence is the Sunnah and whose leader is the Messenger to whom they belong; they do not pay any attention to whims and desires, and they do not care about personal opinions. They are content with what is narrated from the Messenger, and they are the ones who are entrusted with it and they take care of it. They are the guardians and keepers of the faith, the vessels and bearers of knowledge. If there is a difference of opinion concerning a hadeeth, people refer to them, and what they rule is what is accepted and listened to. Among them are prominent faqeehs, great imams, ascetics who are well-known among their tribes, men who are known for their virtue, skilled reciters of Qur’aan and good speakers. They are the majority and their way is the right way. Every innovator pretends to be following their path, and cannot dare to claim any other way. Whoever opposes them, Allaah will destroy him, and whoever goes against them, Allaah will humiliate him. They are not harmed by those who forsake them, and those who stay away from them will not prosper. The one who cares for his religion needs their help, the one who looks down on them is a loser, and Allaah is able to support them.


Sharf Ashaab al-Hadeeth, p. 15



Why are you making the religion difficult for him? If an Alim justify his stance by presenting a Saheeh Hadith, then follow him. If you read a hadith that contradcits your Imam's opinion, then follow hadith. It's certainly not a rocket science and nobody is telling you to pursue thousand of hadiths rather follow Ulamas who are Ahl al-Hadeeth.

You're rejecting the Sunnah of the Prophet in favour of an opinion(yes, it's called opinion) .

For example, in the issue of “does laughing in salaah break your wudoo?,” Imam Abu Hanifa says yes, and cites a mursal hadith as his proof. The majority of scholars disagree, and insha’Allah this is the correct opinion–why?


Because the hadith is mursal (i.e. da’eef) and Ibn Abbas(r.a) rejected the mursal hadith:

Basheer bin Ka'ab (Tabiyee) came to Ibne Abbas (Sahabi) and said Prophet peace be upon him said this(he again said) Prophet peace be upon him said this but Ibne Abbas was not paying attention to him in fact he was not even watching him, He( Tabiyee) said I do not see you hear my hadeeth, I am narrating the hadeeth of Prophet peace be upon him but you do not hear? Ibn Abbas replied: previously when we heard a person saying Prophet of Allah peace be upon him said this, our eyes also sees him quickly and our ears listened him, But when People started following wrong way(started narrating weak and fabricated ahadeeth) then we left listening ahadeeth except the ahadeeth we already knew.[Muqaddimah Sahih Muslim no: 21]

Muhammad bin Yahya bin saeed al Qattan Narrates from his Father that he said we have never seen righteous people lying in anything except in (narrating) hadeeth )same is narrated from Ibn Abi Attab) Imam Muslim said they do not lie deliberately but it appear on their tongue (unintentionally)


Meaning righteous people who were not muhadditheen, they used to hear narrations and preach because they considered them authentic but in reality the narrations were false.


Mursal ahadith are ahadith where the chain cuts off at the tab’iee level; it doesn’t go directly to the Prophet (صلى الله عليه و سلم
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InToTheRain
07-20-2015, 03:01 PM
Originally Posted by Vlad
It's feasable for every muslim to pursue Ulamas who adhere to Saheeh Ahadees and has no excuse whatsoever to reject them in favour of opinions of other Ulamas.
Imam Hanafi and his Shura prefer to remain silent while the Imam says Surah Fatiha, Imam Shafi and his Shura prefer to say Al-Fatiha even behind the Imam. Which follower of Sahih Hadith should I favor because I can't do both at the same time!

Also following a Madhab does not mean rejecting Sahih Hadiths rather giving preference to some hadiths over others hence there is a difference in opinion.
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Vlad
07-20-2015, 03:02 PM
Say your whole life you follow a madhab, and in later life you come to know through and Alim that regarding a certain aspect Prophet Muhammad did exactly opposite. Why would not you follow your Prophet? What is the matter with you that you hardly understand?

Originally Posted by InToTheRain
Imam Hanafi and his Shura prefer to remain silent while the Imam says Surah Fatiha, Imam Shafi and his Shura prefer to say Al-Fatiha even behind the Imam. Which follower of Sahih Hadith should I favor because I can't do both at the same time!

Also following a Madhab does not mean rejecting Sahih Hadiths rather giving preference to some hadiths over others hence there is a difference in opinion.
In the famous words of Imam Abu Haneefah : “If the hadeeth is saheeh then that is my madhhab.” And he said: “It is not permissible for anyone to follow what we say if they do not know where we got it from.” According to another report he said: “It is haraam for the one who does not know my evidence to issue a fatwa based on my words.” And according to another report he added: “We are human, we may say something today and retract it tomorrow.” And he said: “If I say something that goes against the Book of Allaah or the report of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), then ignore what I say.”


Sincere piece of advise by Imam al-Shaafa’i (may Allaah have mercy on him) : “There is no one who will not be unaware of some of the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Whatever I say or whatever guidelines I establish, if there is a report from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) which is different to what I said, then what matters is what the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, and that is my opinion.”

Originally Posted by InToTheRain
Imam Hanafi and his Shura prefer to remain silent while the Imam says Surah Fatiha, Imam Shafi and his Shura prefer to say Al-Fatiha even behind the Imam. Which follower of Sahih Hadith should I favor because I can't do both at the same time!

Also following a Madhab does not mean rejecting Sahih Hadiths rather giving preference to some hadiths over others hence there is a difference in opinion.

Following a Madhab precisely means rejecting Sahih Hadiths(not in all aspects) and giving prefrence to mursal, daee'f hadiths and opinions.

As I have already said:

You have certainly no excuse whatsoever for not following Ahadiths. Imam Abu Haneefah lived at the time of tribulation so the other Imams and it was impossible for them to have the collection of all Saheeh Ahadiths.

For example; There are mursal hadiths that says Imam Hassan(r.a) had 90 wives. I have seen countless Ulamas saying yeah that is the correct opinion. But if you refer to Ahl al-Hadeeth they would tell you 90 wives have been sourced in the narration of the Mada'ini and Waqidi, both of them have been attributed with lies:

Contemporary scholars opinion about Waqidi:
-Ahmad bin Hanbal said: He is a liar.
-Yahya bin Ma’een said: He used to take the hadith of Ma’amar and attribute it to Yunus; he is not trustworthy.
-Ali bin Al-Madeeni said: Al-Haytham bin Adi is more reliable than Al-Waqidi, and I don’t take hadiths, genealogy, or anything from him.
-Al-Shafi’ee said: All his books are lies.
-Al-Nasa’ee included him as one of the four infamous liars.
-Abu Dawud: I have no doubts that he fabricated hadiths.
-Ishaq bin Rahawaih said: He is a fabricator of narrations.
-Abu Hatim said: He fabricated.

Now if someone come across this sort of information then why would he not change his opinion to: Imam Hussan(r.a) never married 90 times?

Similarly, if you come across information that says Prophet Muhammad prayed like that, then you should follow your Prophet.


Four Madhabs? Why should not I follow my Prophet and Ulamas who adhere to Ahadees?

As Al Khateeb al-Baghdadi said:

Every group has its own focal point which is based on whims and desires, apart from the people of hadeeth, whose reference point is the Qur’aan, whose evidence is the Sunnah and whose leader is the Messenger to whom they belong; they do not pay any attention to whims and desires, and they do not care about personal opinions. They are content with what is narrated from the Messenger, and they are the ones who are entrusted with it and they take care of it. They are the guardians and keepers of the faith, the vessels and bearers of knowledge. If there is a difference of opinion concerning a hadeeth, people refer to them, and what they rule is what is accepted and listened to. Among them are prominent faqeehs, great imams, ascetics who are well-known among their tribes, men who are known for their virtue, skilled reciters of Qur’aan and good speakers.
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InToTheRain
07-20-2015, 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by Vlad
As I have already said:

You have certainly no excuse whatsoever for not following Ahadiths. Imam Abu Haneefah lived at the time of tribulation so the other Imams and it was impossible for them to have the collection of all Saheeh Ahadiths.
1) When the Imams mentioned correcting ones opinion for a better one they were refering to their peers in the field and their Shura not unqualified laymen.

2) The science of Hadith classification was made by people who followed a Madhab! Imam Bukhari(RA) followed one, do you know about Sahih hadiths better than him?

3) Your telling me to practice Ijtihad when I lack the qualifications to do so. If I where to read Qur'an and Sunnah and interpret according to my understanding than I can make a new religion if I wanted! You need to interpret the way it has been interpreted by Mohammad(SAW), Sahabah, Tabi'een and so on. Basically follow a Madhab.

4) To have the qualifications to make Ijtihad is not easy and yes it is comparable to "rocket science" :) :

In order to protect the Shariah from the danger of innovation and distortion, the great scholars of usul laid down rigorous conditions which must be fulfilled by anyone wishing to claim the right of ijtihad for himself.[43] These conditions include:

(a) mastery of the Arabic language, to minimise the possibility of misinterpreting Revelation on purely linguistic grounds;
(b) a profound knowledge of the Quran and Sunnah and the circumstances surrounding the revelation of each verse and hadith, together with a full knowledge of the Quranic and hadith commentaries, and a control of all the interpretative techniques discussed above;
(c) knowledge of the specialised disciplines of hadith, such as the assessment of narrators and of the matn [text];
(d) knowledge of the views of the Companions, Followers and the great imams, and of the positions and reasoning expounded in the textbooks of fiqh, combined with the knowledge of cases where a consensus (ijma) has been reached;
(e) knowledge of the science of juridical analogy (qiyas), its types and conditions;
(f) knowledge of ones own society and of public interest (maslahah);
(g) knowing the general objectives (maqasid) of the Shariah;
(h) a high degree of intelligence and personal piety, combined with the Islamic virtues of compassion, courtesy, and modesty.
5) You still haven't answered the question. Should I say Surah Fatiha when reading behind and Imam or not?
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Vlad
07-20-2015, 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by InToTheRain
1) When the Imams mentioned correcting ones opinion for a better one they were refering to their peers in the field and their Shura not unqualified laymen.

2) The science of Hadith classification was made by people who followed a Madhab! Imam Bukhari(RA) followed one, do you know about Sahih hadiths better than him?



3) Your telling me to practice Ijtihad when I lack the qualifications to do so. If I where to read Qur'an and Sunnah and interpret according to my understanding than I can make a new religion if I wanted! You need to interpret the way it has been interpreted by Mohammad(SAW), Sahabah, Tabi'een and so on. Basically follow a Madhab.

4) To have the qualifications to make Ijtihad is not easy and yes it is comparable to "rocket science" :) :

5) You still haven't answered the question. Should I say Surah Fatiha when reading behind and Imam or not?

SUBHANALLAH the reasons you put forward for not following those Ulamas who adhere to Ahadees, it would be more appropriate if I say, the reasons you put forward for rejecting the established Sunnah.


The hadeeth “The recitation of the imaam is the recitation of the one who is praying behind him” is da’eef (weak). “There is no prayer for the one who does not recite the Opening of the Book [i.e., al-Faatihah].” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 714).

4) To have the qualifications to make Ijtihad is not easy and yes it is comparable to "rocket science" :) :



What is the need to make Ijtihad when there
are Ulamas who are presenting forward authentic hadith that your Prophet did that and that?




Don't make the religion difficult for him, where there is an authentic hadith (you would only come to know if you follow Ahl Hadees) that contradicts the opinion of an Imam then follow the saheeh hadith . If the answer is not in hadith then follow the opinion that is more correct and closet to Ahadith.

Originally Posted by InToTheRain
1) When the Imams mentioned correcting ones opinion for a better one they were refering to their peers in the field and their Shura not unqualified laymen.
Where did I say that one should follow unqualified laymen?
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InToTheRain
07-20-2015, 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by Vlad
SUBHANALLAH the reasons you put forward for not following those Ulamas who adhere to Ahadees, it would be more appropriate if I say, the reasons you put forward for rejecting the established Sunnah.


The hadeeth “The recitation of the imaam is the recitation of the one who is praying behind him” is da’eef (weak). “There is no prayer for the one who does not recite the Opening of the Book [i.e., al-Faatihah].” (Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 714).
Please show how each of these hadiths are weak:

If you are praying in a congregation then you should not read anything behind the Imam.

Allâh says: And when the Qur'ân is recited, listen to it attentively and remain silent, that you may receive mercy.[74]

Sayyiduna Abu Hurairah radiallahu anhu says, 'Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam turned around after a salâh in which he had recited loudly. He enquired, "Has any one of you recited (behind me)?" A man replied, "I did." Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam said, "I say: what is it with me? I am being contested for the Qur'ân." After the people heard this from Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam they stopped reciting with him (behind him) in those salâh in which he would pray loudly.'[75]

Sayyiduna Abu Hurairah radiallahu anhu reports that Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam said, 'The Imam has been appointed so that he may be followed. Thus, when he says the takbeer, you say it also, and when he recites remain silent.'[76]

Sayyiduna Abu Musa al Ash'ari radiallahu anhu says, 'Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam taught us that "When you stand up for prayer one of you should lead the rest, and when the Imam recites remain silent."[77]

Abu Wail reports that Sayyiduna Abdullah bin Mas'ud radiallahu anhu was asked about reciting behind the Imam. He replied, 'Remain silent for the recitation (of the Imam). For indeed there is a duty in salâh for which the Imam is sufficient for you.'[78]

Nafi' reports that when Sayyiduna Abdullah bin Umar radiallahu anhu would be asked, 'Should one recite behind the Imam?' he would reply, 'When one of you prays behind the Imam then the Imam's recitation is sufficient for him. When he prays alone he should recite.' Nafi' adds, 'Abdullah bin Umar radiallahu anhu would not recite behind the Imam.'[79]Sayyiduna Jabir bin Abdullah radiallahu anhu relates that Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam said, 'One who prays behind an Imam, the recitation of the Imam is sufficient for him.'[80]

The above hadeeth has also been reported from Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam on the authority of the noble Sahâbah Anas,[81] Abdullah bin Abbas,[82] Abu Hurairah,[83] Abu Saeed al Khudri,[84] Abdullah bin Umar,[85] Ali,[86] and Abu al Dardaa [87]radiallahu anhum.

Ahadeeth such as those above stressing the obligation of Sûrah al Fâtihah are for the Imam or the individual, not the muqtadi. Imam Tirmidhi has quoted Imam Ahmad who commented on the above hadeeth (There is no salâh for one...) by saying 'This is if he is alone.'

Wahb bin Kaysan reports that he heard Sayyiduna Jabir bin Abdullah radiallahu anhu say, 'He who prays one rak'ah in which he does not recite Sûrah al Fâtihah has in fact not prayed at all, unless he is behind an Imam.'[88]

[74] Al A'raaf 7/204.

[75] Malik 194, Ahmad 7760, Ibn Majah 849, Abu Dawood 826, Tirmidhi 312 and Nasai 919.

[76] Ahmad 9151. Also reported by Ahmad bin Manee' and Abd bin Humaid in their Musnads with a saheeh sanad as quoted by Bouseeree in Misbah al Zujajah Chapter 150, hadeeth 313. Narrated also by Ibn Majah 846, Abu Dawood 603, Nasai 921 & 922 and Tahawi 1/217. Imam Nimawi says that its isnad is saheeh. Allamah Abdul Hayy Luckhnawi categorically concludes in his Imam al Kalam, p 165 that the hadeeth is authentic after quoting a number of ulama who have declared it saheeh including Imam Ahmad. For details of Allamah Abdul Hayy Luckhnawi's life, learning and works see the biographies.

[77] Ahmad 19224, Muslim 404 (as part of a longer hadeeth), and Ibn Majah 847.

[78] Imam Muhammad in his al Muwatta 120 & 122, Ibn Abi Shaibah 3780, and Tahawi 1/217. Imam Nimawi says 369 that its isnad is saheeh.

[79] Malik 193.

[80] Imam Abu Hanifah as recorded in the Musnad of Khaskafi p307 and in Jam'i al Masaneed 1/ 334; Imam Muhammad in his al Muwatta 117 and in his Kitab al Hujjah 1/118 with an isnad declared saheeh by Hafidh Badr al Deen al Aini and Imam Nimawi 364. Also reported by Ibn Abi Shaibah 3802 with an isnad classified saheeh by Ibn at Turkumani 2/228; Ahmad 14233; Abd bin Humaid 1050; Ahmad bin Manee' with a saheeh isnad as quoted by Imam Nimawi 364; Ibn Majah 850; Tahawi 1/217 with an isnad declared saheeh by Hafidh Ibn al Humam as mentioned in the footnotes of Sharh Maani al Athaar 1/217; and Baihaqi 2897.

[81] Ibn Hibban in his al Dhuafaa 2/202.

[82] Daruqutni 1238 & 1252.

[83] Daruqutni 1229 & 1230.

[84] Tabarani in al Mu'jam al Awsat as quoted by Hafidh Haithami 2/111. Hafidh Haithami says that the sanad contains Haroon al Abdi who is matrook.

[85] Daruqutni 1225.

[86] Daruqutni 1234.

[87] Daruqutni 1248.

[88] Malik 188 and Tirmidhi 313.

Also feel free to prove how all these hadith's are weak...Good luck!

http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/Prayer.htm
Reply

Vlad
07-20-2015, 04:12 PM
The fact that a student studied with a madhhab does not mean that he cannot go beyond it if he finds sound evidence elsewhere; the only one who stubbornly clings to a particular madhhab (regardless of the evidence) is one who lacking in religious commitment and intellect, or he is doing that because of partisan attachment to his madhhab.

Ibn Taymiyah :No one has to blindly follow any particular man in all that he enjoins or forbids or recommends, apart from the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him).

Originally Posted by InToTheRain
Please show how each of these hadiths are weak:

If you are praying in a congregation then you should not read anything behind the Imam.

Allâh says: And when the Qur'ân is recited, listen to it attentively and remain silent, that you may receive mercy.[74]

Sayyiduna Abu Hurairah radiallahu anhu says, 'Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam turned around after a salâh in which he had recited loudly. He enquired, "Has any one of you recited (behind me)?" A man replied, "I did." Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam said, "I say: what is it with me? I am being contested for the Qur'ân." After the people heard this from Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam they stopped reciting with him (behind him) in those salâh in which he would pray loudly.'[75]




Sayyiduna Abu Hurairah radiallahu anhu reports that Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam said, 'The Imam has been appointed so that he may be followed. Thus, when he says the takbeer, you say it also, and when he recites remain silent.'[76]

Sayyiduna Abu Musa al Ash'ari radiallahu anhu says, 'Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam taught us that "When you stand up for prayer one of you should lead the rest, and when the Imam recites remain silent."[77]

Abu Wail reports that Sayyiduna Abdullah bin Mas'ud radiallahu anhu was asked about reciting behind the Imam. He replied, 'Remain silent for the recitation (of the Imam). For indeed there is a duty in salâh for which the Imam is sufficient for you.'[78]

Nafi' reports that when Sayyiduna Abdullah bin Umar radiallahu anhu would be asked, 'Should one recite behind the Imam?' he would reply, 'When one of you prays behind the Imam then the Imam's recitation is sufficient for him. When he prays alone he should recite.' Nafi' adds, 'Abdullah bin Umar radiallahu anhu would not recite behind the Imam.'[79]Sayyiduna Jabir bin Abdullah radiallahu anhu relates that Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam said, 'One who prays behind an Imam, the recitation of the Imam is sufficient for him.'[80]

The above hadeeth has also been reported from Rasulullah sallallahu alaihi wa sallam on the authority of the noble Sahâbah Anas,[81] Abdullah bin Abbas,[82] Abu Hurairah,[83] Abu Saeed al Khudri,[84] Abdullah bin Umar,[85] Ali,[86] and Abu al Dardaa [87]radiallahu anhum.

Ahadeeth such as those above stressing the obligation of Sûrah al Fâtihah are for the Imam or the individual, not the muqtadi. Imam Tirmidhi has quoted Imam Ahmad who commented on the above hadeeth (There is no salâh for one...) by saying 'This is if he is alone.'

Wahb bin Kaysan reports that he heard Sayyiduna Jabir bin Abdullah radiallahu anhu say, 'He who prays one rak'ah in which he does not recite Sûrah al Fâtihah has in fact not prayed at all, unless he is behind an Imam.'[88]

[74] Al A'raaf 7/204.

[75] Malik 194, Ahmad 7760, Ibn Majah 849, Abu Dawood 826, Tirmidhi 312 and Nasai 919.

[76] Ahmad 9151. Also reported by Ahmad bin Manee' and Abd bin Humaid in their Musnads with a saheeh sanad as quoted by Bouseeree in Misbah al Zujajah Chapter 150, hadeeth 313. Narrated also by Ibn Majah 846, Abu Dawood 603, Nasai 921 & 922 and Tahawi 1/217. Imam Nimawi says that its isnad is saheeh. Allamah Abdul Hayy Luckhnawi categorically concludes in his Imam al Kalam, p 165 that the hadeeth is authentic after quoting a number of ulama who have declared it saheeh including Imam Ahmad. For details of Allamah Abdul Hayy Luckhnawi's life, learning and works see the biographies.

[77] Ahmad 19224, Muslim 404 (as part of a longer hadeeth), and Ibn Majah 847.

[78] Imam Muhammad in his al Muwatta 120 & 122, Ibn Abi Shaibah 3780, and Tahawi 1/217. Imam Nimawi says 369 that its isnad is saheeh.

[79] Malik 193.

[80] Imam Abu Hanifah as recorded in the Musnad of Khaskafi p307 and in Jam'i al Masaneed 1/ 334; Imam Muhammad in his al Muwatta 117 and in his Kitab al Hujjah 1/118 with an isnad declared saheeh by Hafidh Badr al Deen al Aini and Imam Nimawi 364. Also reported by Ibn Abi Shaibah 3802 with an isnad classified saheeh by Ibn at Turkumani 2/228; Ahmad 14233; Abd bin Humaid 1050; Ahmad bin Manee' with a saheeh isnad as quoted by Imam Nimawi 364; Ibn Majah 850; Tahawi 1/217 with an isnad declared saheeh by Hafidh Ibn al Humam as mentioned in the footnotes of Sharh Maani al Athaar 1/217; and Baihaqi 2897.

[81] Ibn Hibban in his al Dhuafaa 2/202.

[82] Daruqutni 1238 & 1252.

[83] Daruqutni 1229 & 1230.

[84] Tabarani in al Mu'jam al Awsat as quoted by Hafidh Haithami 2/111. Hafidh Haithami says that the sanad contains Haroon al Abdi who is matrook.

[85] Daruqutni 1225.

[86] Daruqutni 1234.

[87] Daruqutni 1248.

[88] Malik 188 and Tirmidhi 313.

Also feel free to prove how all these hadith's are weak...Good luck!

http://www.central-mosque.com/fiqh/Prayer.htm

You have already answered yourself.


Rather you have to study the matter in more detail and find out more. If one of you is following a scholar who says that the one who is praying behind an imam has to recite al-Faatihah during prayers in which Qur’aan is to be recited out loud, and others are following a scholar who says that they must be silent and listen to the imam in prayers where Qur’aan is to be recited out loud, and that the imam’s recitation of al-Faatihah is sufficient, there is nothing wrong with that.

I follow the opinion which says its is obligatory:

The first opinion is that it is obligatory, the evidence for that being the general meaning of the hadeeth of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “There is no prayer for the one who does not recite the Opening of the Book [i.e., al-Faatihah].” And because when the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) taught the one who had not prayed properly, he told him to recite al-Faatihah.


It was narrated in a saheeh report that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to recite it in every rak’ah. Al-Haafiz ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baari: “It was proven that permission was given to the one who is praying behind an imaam to recite al-Faatihah in prayers in which Qur’aan is to be recited out loud, without any exceptions. That is what was narrated by al-Bukhaari in Juz’ al-Qiraa’ah, and by al-Tirmidhi, Ibn Hibbaan and others, from Makhool from Mahmood ibn al-Rabee’ from ‘Ubaadah, that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) stumbled in his recitation in Fajr, and when he finished he said, “Perhaps you recite behind your imaam?” They said, “Yes,” He said, “Do not do that, except for the Opening of the Book (al-Faaithah), for there is no prayer for the one who does not recite it.”


Now leave that issue aside for a minute, why don't you do rafa yadain?

Imaam al-Bukhaari (may Allaah have mercy on him) wrote a separate book on this issue which he calledJuz’ fi Raf’ al-Yadayn (Section on Raising the Hands), in which he proved that the hands should be raised at these two points on the prayer, and he strongly denounced those who go against that. He narrated that al-Hasan said: “The Companions of the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) used to raise their hands during prayer when they bowed and when they stood up (from bowing).” Al-Bukhaari said, “Al-Hasan did not exclude any of the Sahaabah from that, and it was not proven that any one among the Sahaabah did not raise his hands.” See al-Majmoo’ by al-Nawawi, 3/399-406.

From this point would you follow the Sunnah of your Prophet after coming across the information that hadiths about not raising hands are all daee'f?
Reply

Muhammad
07-20-2015, 05:51 PM
:wasalamex

Brothers, this is not something to create a debate over. The most important thing here is to recognise the blessing our brother has received to turn away from being a Shi'a and come to the truth of Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah, Alhamdulillah.

We respect all the four maddhabs as they are based on the teachings of the Qur'an and Sunnah. Their Imams are accepted by the Ummah. They each strive to follow the truth insofar as they are able to.

There is obviously disagreement with regards to being restricted to one particular maddhab. Let us refrain from making this a cause for division and splitting. Rather with more knowledge we will :ia: understand better and become more tolerant. It would be a greater harm to turn someone away from the correct Aqeedah than debating whether one should stick to one maddhab or not.

Whilst searching, I found the following paragraph which is an important reminder:

We would like to advise our brothers from Ahl Al-Hadeeth to call their Muslim brothers to Allaah kindly, leniently, and wisely given the prevalence of ignorance. Allaah, The Exalted, says (what means): {Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.}[Quran 16:125] ‘Aa’ishah reported that the Prophet said: “Allaah is Forbearing and He loves forbearance, and gives reward for forbearance as He does not give for violence, and as He does not reward for anything besides it (forbearance).” [Muslim]

Alhamdulillah our brother has come to the truth of Ahlus-Sunnah wal Jama'ah, and we ask Allaah :swt: to increase him and his family and indeed all of us in guidance, Aameen.

This thread is now closed.
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