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CalmIslam
07-21-2015, 03:43 AM
I've Always Wanted To Ask This Question But Never Had Any Logical Answer Or Answers That Made Sense Why Is Dating Haraam ? & If We Can't Date Then How Can We Get To Know A Muslim Brother Without Getting To That Stage... & How would marriage happen if dating is Haraam.
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farhan
07-21-2015, 04:23 AM
You don't really get to know the person while dating. They will put on a nice suit, take you places etc. Basically they act their best, false impression of how they really are. When you actually live with the person that's when you discover the inner monster.

Islamically in front of a mahram you can ask the potential as many questions as you wish and know them indepth. Your parents can also look at the potential to see things that you don't see.

I think the facts speak for themselves :hiding:.

- 43 percent of marriages break up within 15 years.
- 40 percent of girls age 14-17 report knowing someone their age who has been hit or beaten by a boyfriend.
- 1 in 4 teens reports verbal, physical, emotional or sexual abuse each year.
- Most couples get into an “exclusive” relationship after 6 to 8 dates.
- The average person will go out on a date at least 100 dates before they finally marry.
- The most common time for breakups is around three to five months.
- People tend to make decisions on whether or not they're attracted to someone within 3 seconds.
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greenhill
07-21-2015, 04:24 AM
There was a time when marriages were arranged.

Then children wanted their freedom to choose because of 'love'...

:peace:
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CalmIslam
07-21-2015, 04:28 AM
Originally Posted by فرحان
You don't really get to know the person while dating. They will put on a nice suit, take you places etc. Basically they act their best, false impression of how they really are. When you actually live with the person that's when you discover the inner monster.

Islamically in front of a mahram you can ask the potential as many questions as you wish and know them indepth. Your parents can also look at the potential to see things that you don't see.

I think the facts speak for themselves :hiding:.

- 43 percent of marriages break up within 15 years.
- 40 percent of girls age 14-17 report knowing someone their age who has been hit or beaten by a boyfriend.
- 1 in 4 teens reports verbal, physical, emotional or sexual abuse each year.
- Most couples get into an “exclusive” relationship after 6 to 8 dates.
- The average person will go out on a date at least 100 dates before they finally marry.
- The most common time for breakups is around three to five months.
- People tend to make decisions on whether or not they're attracted to someone within 3 seconds.
Depends on how long you've been with them you don't get to know the person in the beginning but of course if you're with them for long then yeah you'll know most things
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CalmIslam
07-21-2015, 04:28 AM
Originally Posted by greenhill
There was a time when marriages were arranged.

Then children wanted their freedom to choose because of 'love'...

:peace:
That makes sense, no wonder but how can you be with someone you don't love ? Some say you learn to love them but what if you never do
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greenhill
07-21-2015, 04:57 AM
Works both ways, what happens if you fall out of love?

Love actually is a distraction like desire and can often be blinding and lead people down an undesired path. .

Usually love is built on dreams and ignores practicalities of life and when the dream is left unfulfilled, the love then crumbles leaving nothing else.

So if marriage is based upon mutual understanding and commitment as opposed to mutual 'love', (assumption that love conquers all) the management of the marriage is different from the love 'bubble'.

Am I making sense?


:peace:
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sister herb
07-21-2015, 06:08 AM
Originally Posted by greenhill
So if marriage is based upon mutual understanding and commitment as opposed to mutual 'love', (assumption that love conquers all) the management of the marriage is different from the love 'bubble'.
That would be the optimal situation (that marriage is based upon those things) but what if someone calls this "mutual understanding and commitment" by the name like "love" and can´t find it after the marriage because he/she didn´t know another person enough well before marriage?
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ardianto
07-21-2015, 07:27 AM
:sl:

Men and women are created to attracted to each other. And how if a man and woman meet then interested to each other?. ...... They should get married, without make premarital relationship.

But how a man and a woman can know each other without dating?. They can do "ta'aruf" or process to know each other which does not beyond the limit. Of course, the third party must attend in ta'aruf process, and there's no go to cinema together like in dating.

Ta'aruf is permitted by ulama in my place. Even this is suggested to change the dating habit. But, yeah, maybe in other cultures where the Muslims are more conservative, ta'aruf is considered haram.
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CalmIslam
07-21-2015, 07:31 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
:sl:

Men and women are created to attracted to each other. And how if a man and woman meet then interested to each other?. ...... They should get married, without make premarital relationship.

But how a man and a woman can know each other without dating?. They can do "ta'aruf" or process to know each other which does not beyond the limit. Of course, the third party must attend in ta'aruf process, and there's no go to cinema together like in dating.

Ta'aruf is permitted by ulama in my place. Even this is suggested to change the dating habit. But, yeah, maybe in other cultures where the Muslims are more conservative, ta'aruf is considered haram.
What is a taruf is it a process of just getting to know each other then isn't that like dating ? Or is that just 1st base to getting to know then exceeding to marriage
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ardianto
07-21-2015, 07:38 AM
Originally Posted by asha1896
What is a taruf is it a process of just getting to know each other then isn't that like dating ? Or is that just 1st base to getting to know then exceeding to marriage
The purpose of ta'aruf is searching the right spouse for marriage. And unlike dating, in ta'aruf your mahram (or at least your family member) accompany you when you meet the man who propose marriage. After you know more about him, then you can decide to accept or reject his proposal.
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CalmIslam
07-21-2015, 07:40 AM
Originally Posted by ardianto
The purpose of ta'aruf is searching the right spouse for marriage. And unlike dating, in ta'aruf your mahram (or at least your family member) accompany you when you meet the man who propose marriage. After you know more about him, then you can decide to accept or reject his proposal.
Oh wow that's awesome [emoji5]️ ugh they don't have that here wish they did but thanks for this explanation greatly appreciated it salaam
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InToTheRain
07-21-2015, 10:09 AM
Our Mothers, daughters, sisters and wife’s are meant to have a cycle of protection throughout their life’s by their Fathers, Husbands, Sons and brothers. Dating opens up vulnerabilities. It’s not that there are too many unscrupulous males around but even the victimization of one is one too many.

When you go for a proposal you can speak to your proposal to your hearts extents in private space but anyone is permitted to interrupt at any time (come inside the room) so the door is left open (Khulwa). Not sure if Khulwa and what Bro Ardi mentioned (Taruf) is the same thing.

The Problem faced by some sisters is that there are no Mahrams available. in this case the Muslim leaders in the community should help find a solution or rely on the kindness of other Sisters with Mahrams to mediate between them. Not sure if there are any Ruqsa that can be applied in the absence of all this so I would advise consulting Mufti's.
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greenhill
07-21-2015, 01:22 PM
Hi @sister herb ,

No marriage is foolproof. But if we start it on the wrong platform, it is more likely to be doomed. . . especially if they confuse love as being 'commitment'.

:hmm:
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sister herb
07-21-2015, 02:55 PM
Salam

I see it as the same matter, specially in the marriage. But here might be cultural differencies which have influence how we see the meanings of the words.
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greenhill
07-21-2015, 04:15 PM
Ok. I get it.

It's just that I've gotten into a debate with a more senior member when I was answering the original post. Of course, growing with experience we differentiate them. But at a young age that feeling of love is not the same. Those might be heavy crushes, infatuation, raging hormones, rebellious streak- insecurities, mesmerised by lust romanticism, etc, not to say in the least that it does affect us as adults would be a lie. But, at least, we would have the wisdom to keep us guided, in syaa Allah.

No, perhaps I should have made myself clearer, the love you mean is growing to love the spouse as you get to know them intimately.

:peace:
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greenhill
07-21-2015, 04:39 PM
There was a thread sometime back about choosing partners and if I'm not mistaken, there was a mention of 2 karate-do running in a park.

Don't want to repeat the thing again, I made a list of things I looked for in a wife. Found someone that tick all, but one of them half tick. Was there love? Not sure. Should I wait for the kapow-wow love? Heck NO! I got married soonest possible. We fight, I mean really fight. We laugh, we trust each other (but can let her down and can be unreliable) :embarrass

But after all these years (20+) those boxes still remain ticked. Perhaps it's me that has let the side down :D

Lucky I didn't wait for love. Because it came later on.

:peace:
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legendaryman
07-21-2015, 05:38 PM
Firstly, there are reasons that only Allah knows. He knows what is better for us and we obey. There is wisdom in some things we just can't comprehend.

Having said that, having a boyfriend/girlfriend is DISASTROUS as a Muslim.

- Basically, your mind will constantly be lacking focus, instead focusing on that other person.

-Your responsibilities will be sacrifice because that person will be making demands for things, etc.

- You will have to sacrifice your time with God, your time with family, your time with friends, and your time for social causes (helping the poor, Islamic work) because of that significant other.

- You will be involved in pointless "drama". where one day you're fighting, next day you're all mushy mushy i love you.

- The person has no long term commitment so your relationship will always be shaky. It will feel incomplete.

- Secondly, there is no barakah in a fornication. Whereas in marriage, sex is a blessed act.

These are just SOME of the reasons. There are many more negatives... find someone who has been there/done that and they can cry you a river, llol.


Now, the act itself and the love involved are positives in the boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. But is it worth all the problems I listed above? No way.



But honestly, there is wisdom from Allah, we don't question it when its so CLEAR in our religion.
Narrated 'Abdullah: We were with the Prophet while we were young and had no wealth whatever. So Allah's Apostle said, "O young people! Whoever among you can marry, should marry, because it helps him lower his gaze and guard his modesty and whoever is not able to marry, should fast, as fasting diminishes his sexual power." sahih al-bukhari (Book #62, Hadith #4)



lowering the gaze..we know its what where supposed to do, we just dont realise its importance and protection.
i mean,if someone where dating...then they would'nt be lowering their gaze.
ive seen it in many circumstances, when a person is dating they are not as close to Allah then they where when they were not dating....yet, subhanAllah when it all breaks down...who do they turn to in tears...Allah moujibou du'a.


[33:35]For Muslim men and women, for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give in charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah's praise, for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.




-again you can see the emphasis on modesty..in terms of male and female.

Permitted to you, on the night of the fasts, is the approach to your wives. They are your garments and ye are their garments. Allah knoweth what ye used to do secretly among yourselves; but He turned to you and forgave you; so now associate with them, and seek what Allah hath ordained for you, and eat and drink until the white thread of dawn appear to you distinct from its black thread; then complete your fast till the night appears; but do not associate with your wives while ye are in retreat in the mosques. Those are limits (set by) Allah: approach not nigh thereto. Thus doth Allah make clear His Signs to men: that they may learn self-restraint.


- this ayat can be used with the hadith i referd to...this is why its encouraged to get married an be free of fitnah...if you are able..if not ..then fast.

not only all this but, isnt it kinda sad wen you think your gonna spend the rest of your life with someone...but Allah has decreed something else, as Allah knows best...

to me dating, is like palying with fire...not only can you get seriously hurt....
but if your not careful...it can take you away from the path of Allah.


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MuslimInshallah
07-21-2015, 08:41 PM
Assalaamu alaikum,


Mmm… I think sometimes this is a question of semantics. I think it depends a bit on what you understand "dating" to be. If you think that dating involves a sexual relationship before marriage, then of course, dating is not permitted. But if you understand dating as being getting to know a person's personality before you marry them, then I don't see a problem with this. Frankly, there is no other way to do this in my society. And if you think the statistics for relationships and marriage in general are bad… well, I deeply suspect that the statistics for sudden marriages with complete strangers (often foreigners who feel no societal limits on their behaviour) are worse. The level of abuse and unkindness towards women (and their children) is terrible.

Does this mean being alone in closed room? No. This is not a good idea. Things might get out of hand. But can you meet with someone when accompanied by another person? Can you meet in public places? I think yes. Frankly, I find we get misled by labels and we forget meanings. Whether you call this dating or ta'aruf or khulwa is not important. How we actually behave is important.

This is also true within "marriage". It is not the title that is so important, but the actions. It is sad to say, but there are Muslim men out there who use "Islamic" marriages to gain access to women (often vulnerable women who have little family or societal support), even though they have no intention to build a true married life with these women. Women are being "married", but being treated like mistresses and even prostitutes. This is totally wrong, and a mockery of Allah's Will, no matter what it is called.


May Allah, the Witness, Strengthen our sincere efforts to Please Him, and Protect us from the hypocrites.
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Junon
07-21-2015, 10:47 PM
Salaam

Theres little semantics involved, you only have to look at societies where they used to have a standards when it came to relationships and marriage. Now look at the same societies which increasingly over the years trivialised and casualised relationships in the name of 'freedom' and 'love' and whatever other rationalisation they can come up with.

We now know where these societies are heading.

http://www.islamicboard.com/family-a...ood-dying.html

Our faith and culture has strict standards and protocols for good reason. Civilizations that don't maintain a standard when it comes to family are one of the reasons why they go into decline and eventually collapse.

Sister MuslimInshallah, I don't deny how badly men can behave, but you might be surprised to know that woman can behave just as badly. You have to be wary of allowing feminist ideology to infect your way of thinking on these issues.

Muslim communities have to adapt and innovate when it comes to solving legitimate problems of creating and maintaining a family, particularly in societies which are anti family, but not at the cost of compromising our deen.
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InToTheRain
07-22-2015, 12:07 PM
:salam: Affa :)

I think their would be strong argument for dating if it guaranteed a good spouse however even after years of dating a man and woman's outlook on life and behavior can undergo dramatic change after marriage. There is no way of knowing how it will turn out; a man or woman can hide their true intention and lie through their teeth in order to achieve their goals unfortunately. Also we tend to present an idealized version of ourselves when dating and tend to hide our flaws which are exposed after marriage and has disastrous consequences.

I appreciate your saying that the chances of disaster are less if you get to know them over a longer period of time however I don't agree that dating is the way to really know a person for aforementioned reasons. We need to ask their neighbours, their community, places they work, people that do business with them, traveled with them. Bro ZZZ probably will give you more insight into his neigbours character than hundreds of hours you spend with them when they are in their best behaviour for ulterior motives.

"Once Umar radhiyallahu anhu asked a man whether he knew a certain person to which the man said that he knew him. Then Umar radhiyallahu anhu inquired, whether the man had been on a journey with that person, to which the man said that he had not. Then Umar radhiyallahu anhu said: "You do not know him." In one Hadeeth it is stated that a person praised another in the presence of Umar radhiyallahu anhu. Umar radhiyallahu anhu asked: "Did you travel with him?" He replied: "I did not travel with him." Umar radhiyallahu anhu asked: "Did you have any dealings with him ?" He answered: "No, I had no dealings with him." Umar radhiyallahu anhu then said: "You do not know that person." (It'haaf)."

The families back round was also an important factor for me as I wasn't just satisfied with just the reputation of the individual based on how they are observed when they visit cousins or mosques (short periods of time) as this doesn't really give us any insight as to what the person has done or what their family permits. Another reason why families should be involved in marriages because should any issues arise they can mediate in the marriage; this becomes easier if the extended families keep in touch. Family reputation was a key factor for me also because I wanted my spouse to have the Dua of her parents and a sincere dua for a child from parents are accepted by Allah Most High. It also helps to know that they have been bought up in an Islamic environment; also it is what Mohammad(SAW) mentioned as one of the key 4 things to look for.

Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
Assalaamu alaikum,
May Allah, the Witness, Strengthen our sincere efforts to Please Him, and Protect us from the hypocrites.
Ameen
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MuslimInshallah
07-22-2015, 01:37 PM
Wa alaikum assalaam wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuhu Junon and IntoTheRain,


(smile) Thank you so much for your posts. I completely agree that we need to have a Gold Standard, and that those who call to wrongdoing often clothe their calls in beautiful words and ideals.

And it is also completely correct to state that women may behave just as badly as men. (smile) We are all human, and Allah has Gifted us all with the possibility to choose things which are not good.

I also believe that we should speak out whenever we see an injustice, no matter who is the perpetrator. (smile) I would argue that if speaking out about injustices against women makes me a feminist, then I am a feminist. (grin) And I'm a masculinist, too, because I believe in speaking out about injustices towards men, too! Of course, being a woman, I am in more contact with women, and I see more easily the woman's perspective. (smile) So I am more likely to speak about things from this perspective. But I read your posts Junon, and I do empathize with men who are mistreated by women.

I would absolutely agree that involving your family in a decision such as marriage is very wise and important. Generally speaking, families care about their more vulnerable members, and are ready to put in the time and effort to find out about a prospective in-law and his or her family. (smile) And it is a truth that you marry a family, not just an individual.

(sigh) But not everyone has this possibility. In this increasingly scattered and eroded world, families are becoming weaker and unhealthier, it seems to me. Not only may families show little to no interest in helping their members, but families may not have the tools to do much. In my country, we have many immigrants (I am one myself). People face language and social barriers. They tend to move around a lot. They don't know many people. The family tends to not have many members. They may not understand the cultural understandings of either the dominant society, nor of all the fragments of other immigrant societies around them. And then, because it is hard to meet Muslims locally, families may look for spouses overseas. And the ability to get to know much about how this person really is, is rather limited.

IntoTheRain, you talked about asking community leaders… (sigh) They are swamped. They just don't have the time or resources to help sisters, especially for something as time-consuming and difficult as looking for a spouse. (sad) And not all community leaders are reliable people, you know. And how do you know who is reliable or not, unless you have interacted with them to any degree?

So, whether we like it or not, it may be that the only person who is going to help us in our quest to marry and build a family is our own selves. (sigh) Not because we don't want help. But because there just is none.

Please note: I do not advocate relying only on your own self and interviewing men over a longer period of time as an ideal (and yes, if you can, trying to talk with the man's colleagues, friends, neighbours, employers, etc is a good idea… if you can do it) . I am just stating that it is a reality that some women must deal with, because they have no other choice. If you have caring family who is willing and able to help you: don't be foolish, take their help.


May Allah, the Hearing, have Mercy on all those who know the pain of injustice.
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InToTheRain
07-22-2015, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah

IntoTheRain, you talked about asking community leaders… (sigh) They are swamped. They just don't have the time or resources to help sisters, especially for something as time-consuming and difficult as looking for a spouse. (sad) And not all community leaders are reliable people, you know. And how do you know who is reliable or not, unless you have interacted with them to any degree?

So, whether we like it or not, it may be that the only person who is going to help us in our quest to marry and build a family is our own selves. (sigh) Not because we don't want help. But because there just is none.

Please note: I do not advocate relying only on your own self and interviewing men over a longer period of time as an ideal (and yes, if you can, trying to talk with the man's colleagues, friends, neighbours, employers, etc is a good idea… if you can do it) . I am just stating that it is a reality that some women must deal with, because they have no other choice. If you have caring family who is willing and able to help you: don't be foolish, take their help.


May Allah, the Hearing, have Mercy on all those who know the pain of injustice.
I think it's quite a serious problem which requires urgent attention. It was actually one of the dying wishes of Umar(RA) to make sure sisters have spouses so that they have someone to rely on should they need to. Especially considering that more females revert than males and if their family aren't supportive it's going to be a problem for them to have Mahrams and get married.

Here is a talk by Haib Ali Jifri about this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZG6ibK8mwo
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jameelash
07-22-2015, 04:00 PM
WHEN ISLAM SAY NO FOR DATING OR ANYTHING ELSE WITH PROPER SORCE THEN THERE IS O QUESTION.ONLY ACCEPTANCE.

Why has Islam Prohibited Dating ? (taken from another site)


"Dating" as it is currently practiced in much of the world shall not exist among Muslims -- where a man and a woman (or boy/girl) are in a one-on-one intimate relationship, spending time together alone, getting to know each other in a very deep way.

A man and a woman are not allowed to be alone together, and any physical contact before marriage is forbidden. Hence, Dating is not permitted in Islam.

Allah has prohibited girl/boyfriend relationships in the Qur'an

"(Lawful to you in marriage) are chaste women from the believers and chaste women from those who were given the Scripture (Jews and Christians) before your time, when you have given their due Mahr (bridal-money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage), desiring chastity (i.e. taking them in legal wedlock) not committing illegal sexual intercourse, nor taking them as girlfriends. ... ” - Al-Ma'idah 5:5.

If a Muslim man has the desire and willingness to assume marital responsibilities, and he doesn’t have anyone in mind, he might ask his friends, family, and relatives if there is a lady that might be suitable for him among their acquaintances and relatives, and then the couple can meet with their family members.

As a result, many marriages in the Muslim world were traditionally arranged marriages, though this is not a religious requirement. However, both couples can not be forced to accept an arranged marriage and if a man likes someone (with the intention of marriage) that he knows from work, neighborhood or acquaintances, etc… he shall propose to her.

Islam also encourages Muslims to marry persons for whom they have special feelings and are comfortable with. Thus, Islam recommends that potential marriage partners see one another before proposing marriage. Explaining the reason for such a recommendation, Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said:

“That would enhance/foster the bonding.”

However the prospective couple shall not meet in private, this might lead to extremely unwanted situations, as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said :

“Whenever a man is alone with a woman, Satan is the third among them” (Reported by At-Tirmidhi)..

At all times, Muslims should follow the commands of the Qur'an

"Tell the believing men to lower their gaze (from looking at forbidden things), and protect their private parts (from illegal sexual acts, etc.). That is purer for them. "

In conclusion, Islam lays its social structure on the basis of a permanent relationship between a man and a woman in the form of a family.

Consequently, to preserve this marital relationship, it forbids all forms of temporary relationships between a man and a woman. Pre-marital relationships in Islam are not considered respectful for neither the man nor the woman, nor is it constructive for the concept or the building the family or the Islamic society.
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