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theplains
07-28-2015, 10:25 PM
I had a question about this passage.

"And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take
me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not
mine to utter that to which I had no right. If I had ever said it, then Thou wouldst
have known it
".

Who taught Muhammad that Mary was considered a god?

Peace,
Jim
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Abz2000
07-29-2015, 12:28 AM
walk into any catholic er...temple and look at how they bow down to the statues o son of man.

he must've been aware of the blasphemies such as "chosen consort of god" and "mother of god" na'udhubillahimindhaalik.

The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead*their*dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.

Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD:*do they*not*provoke*themselves to the confusion of their own faces?

Jeremiah 7:18-19
1The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,*2Stand in the gate of the LORD'S house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all*ye of*Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the LORD.*3Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.*4Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD,*arethese.*5For if ye throughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye throughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;6If*ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:*7Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.8Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.*9Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;*10And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?*11Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen*it, saith the LORD.
1.*Praise be to Allah, Who hath sent to His Servant the Book, and hath allowed therein no Crookedness:
2.*(He hath made it) Straight (and Clear) in order that He may warn (the godless) of a terrible Punishment from Him, and that He may give Glad Tidings to the Believers who work righteous deeds, that they shall have a goodly Reward,
3.*Wherein they shall remain for ever:

4.*Further, that He may warn those (also) who say, "(Allah) hath begotten a son":

5.*No knowledge have they of such a thing, nor had their fathers. It is a grievous thing that issues from their mouths as a saying,
what they say is nothing but falsehood.

6.*Thou wouldst only, perchance, fret thyself to death, following after them, in grief, if they believe not in this Message.
7.*That which is on earth we have made but as a glittering show for the earth, in order that We may test them - as to which of them are best in conduct.
8.*Verily what is on earth we shall make but as dust and dry soil (without growth or herbage).

Quran Chapter 18 The Cave, verses 1-8
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Lady A
07-29-2015, 02:57 AM
Hi! The part of the verse listed above is 5:116. (Surah Al-Maida). Just wanted to correct that it's not 115, but rather, 116; to further cease any confusion.

As far as Muslims believe, Muhammad was taught the Quran by Allah. This ayat tells us what will happen in the future on the day of judgment. Allah will ask Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) if he had taught his people to take him and his mother, Maryam (peace and blessings be upon them), as gods along with Allah. And Jesus will reply in the negative, claiming that he did no such thing, and Allah knows everything.

Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) is not the author of the Quran. Just like Jesus (peace and blessings be upon him) did not author the Bible. These were revelations sent to both prophets.

Allah knows best.
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Abz2000
07-29-2015, 08:36 AM
He who refuses to do*arithmetic*is doomed to talk nonsense.
John McCarthy
PROGRESS AND ITS SUSTAINABILITY*(1995)

"We confess, then, our Lord Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, perfect God and perfect man, of a rational soul and a body, begotten before all ages from the Father in his Godhead, the same in the last days, for us and for our salvation, born of Mary the Virgin according to his humanity, one and the same consubstantial with the Father in Godhead and consubstantial with us in humanity, for a union of two natures took place. Therefore we confess one Christ, one Son, one Lord. According to this understanding of the unconfused union, we confess the holy Virgin to be the Mother of God because God the Word took flesh and became man and from his very conception united to himself the temple he took from her"
(Formula of Union*[A.D. 431]).*
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theplains
07-30-2015, 12:37 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
walk into any catholic er...temple and look at how they bow down to the statues o son of man.
But Catholics don't view Mary as a god. So who taught Muhammad this?

he must've been aware of the blasphemies such as "chosen consort of god" and "mother of god" na'udhubillahimindhaalik.
What do you mean 'chosen consort of god"?

Peace,
Jim
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al-Muwahid
07-30-2015, 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by theplains
But Catholics don't view Mary as a god. So who taught Muhammad this?



What do you mean 'chosen consort of god"?

Peace,
Jim
You must obviously have a different definition of what a 'god' is to the Islamic definition. The general Islamic definition of a 'god' (with a lowercase G) is anything that people trust in, invoke in worship, venerate, hold high respect for, etc... that is what "Ilah" in Arabic means in the Kalima "La Ilaha Illa Allah." There is nothing to be venerated or invoked in worship besides Him, Allah (AWJ).

So it isn't that the verse is saying that Catholics think Mary is a literal God (capital G) but they do in fact venerate her and invoke her name in their prayers and such. I was a Catholic when I was in my jahiliyya before Islam.
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Abz2000
07-30-2015, 05:22 AM
traditio basically explained it for the op.

the list is almost as long as the 99 names

Holy Mother of God,Holy Virgin of virgins,*Mother of Christ,*Mother of the Church,*Mother of divine grace,*Mother most pure,*Mother most chaste,*Mother inviolate,*Mother undefiled,*Mother most amiable,*Mother admirable,*Mother of good counsel,*Mother of our Creator,*Mother of our Saviour,*Mother of mercy,*Virgin most prudent,*Virgin most venerable,*Virgin most renowned,*Virgin most powerful,*Virgin most merciful,*Virgin most faithful,*Mirror of justice,*Seat of wisdom,*Cause of our joy,*Spiritual vessel,*Vessel of honour,*Singular vessel of devotion,*Mystical rose,*Tower of David,*Tower of ivory,*House of gold,*Ark of the covenant,*Gate of heaven,*Morning star,*Health of the sick,*Refuge of sinners,*Comfort of the afflicted,*Help of Christians,*Queen of Angels,*Queen of Patriarchs,*Queen of Prophets,*Queen of Apostles,*Queen of Martyrs,*Queen of Confessors,*Queen of Virgins,*Queen of all Saints,*Queen conceived without original sin,*Queen assumed into heaven,*Queen of the most holy Rosary,*Queen of families,*Queen of peace.
worshipˈwəːʃɪp/noun1.
the feeling or expression of reverence and adoration for a deity."worship of the Mother Goddess"
synonyms:reverence,*revering,*worshipping,*venerat ion,*venerating,*adoration,*adoring,*-olatry,*devotion,*praise,*thanksgiving,*praising,* praying to,*glorification,*glorifying,*glory,*exaltation,* exalting,*extolment,*extolling,*homage,*respect,*h onour,*honouring,*esteem;*
2.BRITISH used in addressing or referring to an important or high-ranking person, especially a magistrate or mayor.
"we were soon joined by His Worship the Mayor"
verb1.show reverence and adoration for (a deity)."the Maya built jungle pyramids to worship their gods"synonyms:revere,*reverence,*venerate,*pay homage to,*honour,*adore,*praise,*pray to,*bow down before,*glorify,*exalt,*extol;*More

(interesting is the fact that they used to say " the right worshipful mayor").

catholic idolaters -

mary 1 -
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Traditio
07-30-2015, 05:38 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
traditio basically explained it for the op.
With all due respect, Abz, I believe that you misunderstand me.

The Quran seems to imply that Christians think that the Most Blessed Mother is a deity.
In point of fact, I (or Catholics and Orthodox in general) don't think that the Blessed Mother is a deity (though she is the most honored, holy, glorious, etc. of all created persons).
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Abz2000
07-30-2015, 06:07 AM
Imam Ahmad, At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Jarir At-Tabari recorded a Hadith via several chains of narration, from `Adi bin Hatim r.a., who was a Christian during the time of Jahiliyya …

The Messenger of Allah recited this Ayah

;اتَّخَذُواْ أَحْبَـرَهُمْ وَرُهْبَـنَهُمْ أَرْبَاباً مِّن دُونِ اللَّهِ

(They took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah).

`Adi commented, “I said, `They did not worship them.”’

The Prophet said
,«بَلَى إِنَّهُمْ حَرَّمُوا عَلَيْهِمُ الْحَلَالَ وَأَحَلُّوا لَهُمُ الْحَرَامَ فَاتَّبَعُوهُمْ فَذَلِكَ عِبَادَتُهُمْ إِيَّاهُم»

Yes they did. They (rabbis and monks) prohibited the allowed for them (Christians and Jews) and allowed the prohibited, and they obeyed them. This is how they worshipped them.


so when i read the following bolded verse, a picture of david cameron hurriedly speaking and defending his man made political system appears:

1.*Sad: By the Qur'an, Full of Admonition: (This is the Truth).
2.*But the Unbelievers (are steeped) in self-glory and Separatism.
3.*How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for being saved!
4.*So they wonder that a Warner has come to them from among themselves! and the Unbelievers say, "This is a sorcerer telling lies!
5.*"Has he made the gods (all) into one Allah. Truly this is a wonderful thing!"
6.*And the leaders among them go away (impatiently), (saying), "Walk ye away, and remain constant to your gods! For this is truly a thing designed!
7.*"We never heard (the like) of this among the people of these latter days: this is nothing but a made-up tale!"
8.*"What! has the Message been sent to him - (Of all persons) among us?"...but they are in doubt concerning My (Own) Message! Nay, they have not yet tasted My Punishment!
9.*Or have they the treasures of the mercy of thy Lord,- the Exalted in Power, the Grantor of Bounties without measure?
10.*Or have they the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all between? If so, let them mount up with the ropes and means (to reach that end)!
11.*But there - will be put to flight even a host of confederates.
12.*Before them (were many who) rejected apostles,- the people of Noah, and 'Ad, and Pharaoh, the Lord of Stakes,
13.*And Thamud, and the people of Lut, and the Companions of the Wood; - such were the Confederates.
14.*Not one (of them) but rejected the apostles, but My punishment came justly and inevitably (on them).
Man or King on Throne with Kneeling Man  Supplicant  -
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Abz2000
07-30-2015, 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by Traditio
Abz:

It's very simple.
The Quran claims [in so many words] that Christians worship the Most Blessed Mother.
I have pointed out: "No we don't.....

......have shown that our worship of God and of the saints differ in kind.

Well, great. You disapprove, and the Quran disagrees with me. So what?
basic sense disagrees with you.
even you disagree with you.
you say you don't worship Mary, yet in the same paragraph claim that you do.
you seem to have developed a habit of dividing things into three parts.
you say that there's one god, then you try to justify your idolatry by dividing him into three parts too.

me, myself and i.
i didn't do it, me did it, so it woild be unfair to punish me.
a bit like the abigail and brittany driving offence conundrum.
Reply

Abz2000
07-30-2015, 07:03 AM
your irrational arguing against the truth will not diminish the truth in the least bit
your own posts are sufficient to discredit the false and nonsensical viewpoint that you hold.
i claim to be no angel, but have a duty to accept the truth where i see it, and to offer it to others.
and advise you to read a bit more and reflect wkth rationality.

finally, i'll leave you with some information and advice that will benefit you if you accept it:
that is the extent of my duty to you.


1.*Say: It has been revealed to me that a company of Jinns (spirits) listened (to the Qur'an). They said, 'We have really heard a wonderful Recital!
2.*'It gives guidance to the Right, and we have believed therein: we shall not join (in worship) any (gods) with our Lord.
3.*'And Exalted is the Majesty of our Lord: He has taken neither a wife nor a son.
4.*'There were some foolish ones among us, who used to utter extravagant lies against Allah.
5.*'But we do think that no man or spirit should say aught that untrue against Allah.
6.*'True, there were persons among mankind who took shelter with persons among the Jinns, but they increased them in folly.

7.*'And they (came to) think as ye thought, that Allah would not raise up any one (to Judgment).
8.*'And we pried into the secrets of heaven; but we found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires.
9.*'We used, indeed, to sit there in (hidden) stations, to (steal) a hearing; but any who listen now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.
10.*'And we understand not whether ill is intended to those on earth, or whether their Lord (really) intends to guide them to right conduct.
11.*'There are among us some that are righteous, and some the contrary: we follow divergent paths.
12.*'But we think that we can by no means frustrate Allah throughout the earth, nor can we frustrate Him by flight.
13.*'And as for us, since we have listened to the Guidance, we have accepted it: and any who believes in his Lord has no fear, either of a short (account) or of any injustice.
14.*'Amongst us are some that submit their wills (to Allah., and some that swerve from justice. Now those who submit their wills - they have sought out (the path) of right conduct:
15.*'But those who swerve,- they are (but) fuel for Hell-fire'-
16.* "If they had (only) remained on the (right) Way, We should certainly have bestowed on them Rain in abundance.
17.*"That We might try them by that (means). But if any turns away from the remembrance of his Lord, He will cause him to undergo a severe Penalty.
18.*"And the places of worship are for Allah (alone): So invoke not any one along with Allah.
19.*"Yet when the Devotee of Allah stands forth to invoke Him, they just make round him a dense crowd."
20.*Say: "I do no more than invoke my Lord, and I join not with Him anything."
21.*Say: "It is not in my power to cause you harm, or to bring you to right conduct."
22.*Say: "No one can deliver me from Allah (If I were to disobey Him), nor should I find refuge except in Him,
23.*"Unless I proclaim what I receive from Allah and His Messages: for any that disobey Allah and His Messenger,- for them is Hell: they shall dwell therein for ever."
24.*At length, when they see (with their own eyes) that which they are promised,- then will they know who it is that is weakest in (his) helper and least important in point of numbers.
25.*Say: "I know not whether the (Punishment) which ye are promised is near, or whether my Lord will appoint for it a distant term.
26.*"He (alone) knows the Unseen, nor does He make any one acquainted with His Mysteries,-
27.*"Except an apostle whom He has chosen: and then He makes a band of watchers march before him and behind him,
28.*"That He may know that they have (truly) brought and delivered the Messages of their Lord:
and He surrounds (all the mysteries) that are with them, and takes account of every single thing."
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Abz2000
07-30-2015, 07:21 AM
you'll know soon InshaAllah,
you'll also know that i'm the flawed mortal whom you claim to worship, the flawed mortal who rejects your worship and prays for his own salvation.
but then - will it be too late for you?

A final piece of advice (since you claim the right to challenge) the signs of God's existence and of His revelation to Muhammad may the peace and blessings of Allah be upon him are obvious and undeniable to any who cares to use their intellect.

other signs are in the hands of God, which He witholds due to the fact that punishment becomes due upon rejection a sort of respite if you will.
if you prefer to see more signs, it may be that He will send them, but prepare to shield yourself from the wrath that follows upon rejection.
Reply

Abz2000
07-30-2015, 09:42 AM
negativity often breeds negativity/apprehension, whereas united acceptance of truth creates positivity and harmony within and without.
here's the bright side:

Surah 20. Ta-ha

1.*Ta-Ha.
2.*We have not sent down the Qur'an to thee to be (an occasion) for thy distress,
3.*But only as an admonition to those who fear ((Allah)),-
4.*A revelation from Him Who created the earth and the heavens on high.
5.*The Most Gracious is firmly established on the High throne.
6.*To Him belongs what is in the heavens and on earth, and all between them, and all beneath the soil.
7.*If thou pronounce the word aloud, (it is no matter): for verily He knoweth what is secret and what is yet more hidden.8.*Allah. there is no god but He! To Him belong the most Beautiful Names.

Quran, Chapter 20
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greenhill
07-30-2015, 05:59 PM
Is your Christianity what Jesus taught? It isn't. How much has it changed?

Even the Jews have changed. They have somehow removed the concept of heaven.

The Quran has remained unchanged, and it was addressing the Christians of the era and the area and as a general message to all that Jesus was like any other prophets of Allah, on a mission to correct the Jews of their errors. The Jews rejected him for he was telling the truth.

Like Adam, created with no parents, and Eve (the only time) a woman made from a man, then combined, man and woman can reproduce. The final variation was creating a man without father. Mary had the honour.

Yes, we reaffirm that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad (pbuh) is His messenger. We also give him salutation and (through) to the father of religion himself, Abraham 5 times a day.

:peace:
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theplains
07-30-2015, 10:17 PM
Originally Posted by al-Muwahid
You must obviously have a different definition of what a 'god' is to the Islamic definition. The general Islamic definition of a 'god' (with a lowercase G) is anything that people trust in, invoke in worship, venerate, hold high respect for, etc... that is what "Ilah" in Arabic means in the Kalima "La Ilaha Illa Allah." There is nothing to be venerated or invoked in worship besides Him, Allah (AWJ).

So it isn't that the verse is saying that Catholics think Mary is a literal God (capital G) but they do in fact venerate her and invoke her name in their prayers and such. I was a Catholic when I was in my jahiliyya before Islam.
Thank you.

Jim
Reply

Sojourn
03-01-2016, 04:32 AM
Originally Posted by al-Muwahid
You must obviously have a different definition of what a 'god' is to the Islamic definition. The general Islamic definition of a 'god' (with a lowercase G) is anything that people trust in, invoke in worship, venerate, hold high respect for, etc... that is what "Ilah" in Arabic means in the Kalima "La Ilaha Illa Allah." There is nothing to be venerated or invoked in worship besides Him, Allah (AWJ).
I just stumbled on this post now so I apologize that this is so delayed :)

I am not Muslim but I find the above definition of a "god" from the Islamic perspective to be questionable. Don't Muslims hold the Qur'an, the Ka'ba, and the Black stone in "high regard"? It certainly comes across like veneration to me, but veneration and adoration is not the same thing. Honoring things connected to God is also honoring God, at least in my opinion.

So it isn't that the verse is saying that Catholics think Mary is a literal God (capital G) but they do in fact venerate her and invoke her name in their prayers and such. I was a Catholic when I was in my jahiliyya before Islam.
But Catholics explicitly believe that Mary is a creature of God and not a goddess. She is wholly dependent on God and without Him is nothing. She is honored precisely because of her union and submission ("fiat") to God. In many worldviews, including among Muslims of the tariqat persuasion, God is honored when the Saints or Awliya'ullah are venerated.
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SSHorror
03-05-2016, 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by greenhill
Is your Christianity what Jesus taught? It isn't. How much has it changed?

Even the Jews have changed. They have somehow removed the concept of heaven.

The Quran has remained unchanged, and it was addressing the Christians of the era and the area and as a general message to all that Jesus was like any other prophets of Allah, on a mission to correct the Jews of their errors. The Jews rejected him for he was telling the truth.

Like Adam, created with no parents, and Eve (the only time) a woman made from a man, then combined, man and woman can reproduce. The final variation was creating a man without father. Mary had the honour.

Yes, we reaffirm that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad (pbuh) is His messenger. We also give him salutation and (through) to the father of religion himself, Abraham 5 times a day.

:peace:
Depends on the Jews. Like with Christianity and Islam there are different sects. Traditional Judaism still teaches that there is a heaven but the idea that there is not a heaven is not new for the Jews, the Sadducees in the time of Jesus did not believe in an afterlife either.

Original Christianity hasn't changed. Original Christianity is what Jesus taught and nothing more. It's the Churches which changed the doctrine and still continue changing even until this day. This is why there's so many different sects of Christianity.
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