Immigrants / refugees

[JohnnyEnglish]

I am new to this forum and I joined because I have aquestion (well I have a few questions but I’ll see how it goes). My question is directed at Muslims living inthe UK. I understand that my question may bedifficult or uncomfortable but I would much appreciate your answer(s)

I am middle aged, English, white, male, by birth and decent. I think it likelythat I am about as average as any other middle aged, English, white, male. I don’t know any Muslims, none of myneighbours are Muslim, I see immigrant Muslims a couple of miles down the road fromme swathed in cloth from head to toe and I see the news on TV everday whichshows Mulsims in the UK either leaving to fight in Syria or staying and tryingto turn the UK into something like the failed country they left and I seethousands of other Muslims risking their lives (litterally) to try and get intothe UK.

My question is this . . . .
Why don’t all those Muslims leaving Syria, Iraq and other failed countriesseek asylum in a Muslim country. Why dothey walk straight through safe Muslim countries e.g. Turkey and killthemselves to get into a none Muslim country?

I just don’t understand?

[JohnnyEnglish]

Zaei, thank you for your response to my post (the only person to respond)!

If that is the reason and it is the case that all Muslim countries are corrupt and bad why is that? What is the core fact/feature of Muslim countries that makes them a failed states?

[Abz2000]

take a look at the middle east, Asia, China, south america and the whole lot and look at their histories over the past century and you'll get an idea of how illagal invasions and erecting of puppet regimes affect economies and migration.

less recent examples are "honourable" east india company, the looting of south asia and opium smuggling to china, the effects of which still endure.
recent examples are afghanistan, iraq, libya, syria.

no point stealing people's wealth, maiming them, installing vicious security guards over them, and then wondering why they come looking in your dustbin for food when they're hungry or trying to rest in the shed that you decorated with their money which you robbed - maybe they're less wary of the smiling guard in a clean uniform standing in front of your mansion who you trained to be courteous to your guests, unlike the ones you installed in the cheap labour slave camps.

the british training of R.A.B death squads in bangladesh and the subsequent slaughter in motijeel dhaka,
and the negative american influence upon the egyptian army are prime examples of criminal exploitation.

it wouldn't take long for Muslims to establish Islam in the lands in which the consist a majority, implement the laws of Allah, and welcome their brothers and sisters in faith if the kufr majority countries stopped meddling and harming them and installing corrupt officials in order to exploit the abundant resources and hard workers.

[ardianto]

Greeting, Mr English.

If you see those people just as Muslims, indeed, you would be confused why they go to non-Muslim countries in Europe. But if you see them as (and this is the fact) job seekers, then you would be understand why they want to go to Europe.

There is difference between refugees and economic migrants. Refugees are people who leave their homeland because forced by situation, and then will back after situation has safe. While economic migrants are people who leave their homeland with intention to get better prosperity. Although indeed, refugees can turn into economic migrants.

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[JohnnyEnglish]

Thanksto those who attempted sensible answers.

Thesepeople are either:
1. Refugees from countries at war seekingsafety.
Or
2.Economic migrants seeking a better life.

Fromthe few answers given here it seems that you believe that the vast majority are(2) and simply looking for free housing, free schools, free health services, anda good job in a safe, stable, secure country. Is that the consensus view of all here?

[JohnnyEnglish]

Are the majority of these people:

1. Refugees from countries at war seeking safety.
Or
2. Economic migrants seeking a better life in a safe, stable, secure country.

(I tried to make this post a 'poll' but I couldn't work out how to do that)!

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you JohnnyEnglish; and welcome to the forum from another white English male, retired,

Syria, Iraq and other failed countries

Have you considered the role of Britain and America, we went against UN resolutions to invade Iraq in 2003. As a result, Britain and America have changed Iraq from what you describe as a failed country to a war zone, we have destabilized Iraq creating over two million refugees, many of whom went to Syria. These people have lost everything, their homes, jobs, education, many of them had friends and relatives killed from the conflict.

When I grew up as a kid in the IK, I had this warm cosy feeling about our nation, the history books showed we were the good guys, but it is the victors who write the history books, and we have had a victorious history.

Now my thoughts are more for justice for all people, there seems a similarity in how the Jews were treated during WW2 and how Muslims are being treated today. First you label them as a cause of all the problems, then you take remedies to put the problem right.

Some interesting stats on refugees, it seems the majority have gone to Muslim countries........


The numbers

More than 4 million refugees have fled Syria since the war there began in 2011. According to the UN’s refugee agency, almost 1.8 million have gone to Turkey, more than 600,000 to Jordan and 1 million to Lebanon – a country whose population is just 4 million.

On Monday, Angela Merkel said Germany expected to take at least 800,000 asylum seekers this year. The figure is likely to go up, and could hit 1 million, Berlin says. In 2014 the European nation that accepted the largest number of refugees in proportion to its population was Sweden. Hungary, Malta, Switzerland and 13 other countries accepted more asylum applications than the UK, according to Eurostat.

Between June 2014 and June 2015, the UK took 166 Syrian refugees. They were resettled from camps in Jordan and other neighbouring countries under a new government scheme. The “vulnerable persons” relocation initiative began in March 2014. Under it, the UK has taken 216 people. In June David Cameron said the scheme would be “modestly expanded”.

The Home Office says that since 2011 almost 5,000 Syrians including family members have been given asylum under normal procedures. However, the figure includes many Syrians who were already living in the UK, and who were unable to return home because of war. Britain is the second biggest bilateral donor of humanitarian aid. It has pledged £900m, the Home Office says.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...pare-migration

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

[umairlooms]

wow..muslims in the UK only have two things in mind?
to fight in Syria or fight in the UK??

this is a truly amazing insight mr johnny english!

[sister herb]

wow..muslims in the UK only have two things in mind?
to fight in Syria or fight in the UK??

this is a truly amazing insight mr johnny english!

Hmm... Actually majority of Muslims in UK (as I believe) like in other countries too doesn´t want to fight against anyone but live a normal, peaceful live - like every others. News headlines many times give wrong image about them.

[Abz2000]

wow..muslims in the UK only have two things in mind?
to fight in Syria or fight in the UK??

this is a truly amazing insight mr johnny english!

that's the mentality that people acquire when their countries are run by arms dealers who thrive off bloodshed, bankers who thrive off keeping people on their knees in poverty, and mineral resource dealers who thrive off the abilty to expand their extraction enterprises via new aggressions,
they attempt to keep people corrupted, debased and careless while attempting to unnecessarily interpret the majority of interactions and statements in the international arena in a military context, then God who is the best of planners interprets likewise and sends upon their whole populations abominations in order that they may reflect and rectify their deeds, then when they disregard all warnings against sin and corruption and insolently transgress all bounds of halal and haram - He calls them to account in one go.

it were better that they repented and submitted to the pure and decent guidance of Allah which would bring them success in this life and in eternity.

[ardianto]

Thanksto those who attempted sensible answers.

Thesepeople are either:
1. Refugees from countries at war seekingsafety.
Or
2.Economic migrants seeking a better life.

Fromthe few answers given here it seems that you believe that the vast majority are(2) and simply looking for free housing, free schools, free health services, anda good job in a safe, stable, secure country. Is that the consensus view of all here?

Refugees are not fussy in choosing a place. What they want is just a place where they can live safely and continue their life again. Refugees may expect to enter specific country, but if this country does not open the door for them, then they will try to go to another country. While economic migrants choose specific country. If this country does not accept them, they will still try to enter this country and do not want to back or go to another country.

I learn it from cases that happen in my country, Indonesia. There are Rohingya refugees in Indonesia. They do not mind to live anywhere, as long as safe. Different than economic migrants who illegally try to enter Australia through Indonesia. They insist to go only to Australia, even after arrested by Immigration bureau, and do not want to back or go to another country.

[ardianto]

Hmm... Actually majority of Muslims in UK (as I believe) like in other countries too doesn´t want to fight against anyone but live a normal, peaceful live - like every others. News headlines many times give wrong image about them.

People usually judge a community from the worst in this community, not from the best.

[Abz2000]

interesting how a compartmentalized label is ready to be applied like a tag on each and every person despite the diversity or mix of reasons, or blatant mislplacement of the barcode.
regardless of all the confusing and force generalized reasons given, each person should truthfully, if given the fair opportunity, speak for themselves.

some real confusing trash talk


God said to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM.
This is what you are to say to the Israelites:
'I AM has sent me to you.'"
Exodus 3:14

1.*A. L. M.2.*The Roman Empire has been defeated-3.*In a land close by; but they, (even) after (this) defeat of theirs, will soon be victorious-4.*Within a few years. With Allah is the Decision, in the past and in the Future: on that Day shall the Believers rejoice-
5.*With the help of Allah. He helps whom He will, and He is exalted in might, most merciful.6.*(It is) the promise of Allah. Never does Allah depart from His promise: but most men understand not.

7.*They know but the outer (things) in the life of this world: but of the End of things they are heedless.

8.*Do they not reflect in their own minds? Not but for just ends and for a term appointed, did Allah create the heavens and the earth, and all between them: yet are there truly many among men who deny the meeting with their Lord (at the Resurrection)!9.*Do they not travel through the earth, and see what was the end of those before them? They were superior to them in strength: they tilled the soil and populated it in greater numbers than these have done: there came to them their apostles with Clear (Signs). (Which they rejected, to their own destruction): It was not Allah Who wronged them, but they wronged their own souls.10.*In the long run evil in the extreme will be the End of those who do evil; for that they rejected the Signs of Allah, and held them up to ridicule.

[JohnnyEnglish]

The questions I posed here were designed to help me understand why Muslims are leaving Muslim countries at great a real risk to their own lives to live in non Muslims countries, walking through Muslim countries to get to non Muslim northern Europe and on that walk choosing to walk through Christian countries to get there (e.g Serbia and not Albania). None of the replies here make any attempt to answer that question.

There seems to be no agreement here on whether they are fleeing war or simply looking for a better quality of life.

From my reading of posts on this forum I have formed the view that you (Muslims) believe the Koran has the answer to any question. What does the Koran say about where Muslims must go when leaving a Muslim country fleeing war or poverty?

[JohnnyEnglish]

Note: Abz2000 . . I'd be grateful if you would refrain from posting in my thread, you are flooding it with volumes of rubbish.

[Gale]

Living standards are higher in Europe. They believe there are more opportunities to find work. Where else would they go? Most of the Middle East and wider Islamic world have high unemployment and many social problems.

[OmAbdullah]

Peace

The Holy Quraan has the answer to every problem as well as to your question. I tried to remain quiet because I am ashamed of this behavior of those Muslims. All of the Muslim immigrants cannot be blamed. For example, we came to know from some news that in Lebanon some forms were distributed encouraging the Muslim refugees to fill and sign the forms and go to Greece, from there they can easily go to Europe. So many Muslims filled up the forms and went to Greece where they were locked up in thousands in a stadium with the excuse of registration. They were kept in sun without water. When they became restless then fire extinguishers were used to cover them with carbon dioxide gas, to deprive them of oxygen and thus kill them. the next morning, only 500--600 were found in the stadium and it was said that the rest of them were disposed off overnight.

Now your question is right that why do they go there, but you can see the reason behind it. Many are obliged and the enemies take advantage of their helpless situation, they deceive them by such false paper work and then trap and kill them as is done in Greece. Shame on such killer human beings.

But I feel sorry and ashamed on the behavior of those Muslims who have thrown the Book of Allah at their back and they love Europe and other Western countries more than any thing. They leave behind such Muslim countries which give them respect and rights and choose to go to the Western countries for insulting and punishing themselves. May Allah guide them to the right path of the Holy Quraan, aameen.

You shouldn't use bad words for ABZ's post because he posted the verses of the Holy Quraan and you should have respect for the Divine Books. Otherwise remember that you are going to face Almighty God and then you shall have no way of escape from horrible lasting punishment.

[Futuwwa]

From my reading of posts on this forum I have formed the view that you (Muslims) believe the Koran has the answer to any question.

It doesn't.

[MuslimInshallah]

Peace be to you all,

Ah Johnny English…! Why did my parents move us from the UK to Canada? Were we forced by war and hardship? (smile) Well, of course not! We were truly purely economic migrants, looking for a better life. But we were welcomed with open arms. Immigration was very quick and easy. (smile) And though I was a purely economic migrant, I like to think that both my adopted country and I have been good for one another.

The refugees from Syria and Iraq, however, who have much more serious reasons for fleeing their countries… they have not been so kindly received, have they?

At least some Middle Eastern countries have tried to look after the millions of refugees. Little Lebanon, for instance, with a population of only 4 million, has been trying to look after 1 million refugees. May God Bless the Lebanese! But wealthy, teeming Britain last year took… I read just recently… about 160 Syrian refugees. A mere 160! Does this seem right to you, Johnny English?

(musingly) You know, Johnny, I read Adam Smith's The Wealth of Nations some years ago. And I remember one part that described how the poor in England were not allowed to move freely within the country. England used to be divided into parishes, you see, and the poor were the responsibility of the local parish. So wealthy parishes did not want to have to deal with the poor from less wealthy areas. (smile) It seems to me that England survived the dismantling of all the inner borders. (laugh) Actually, did it not flourish after these barriers came down?

(smile) And during the times of the Islamic Empires, the people used to move very freely from place to place… and the Islamic world was rich in all senses of the word.

(smile) It is scary to think of dismantling barriers. We feel so very vulnerable. (smile) But perhaps it is goodness that we are keeping out?


May God, the One Who Knows the Seen and the Unseen, Help us to Open our hearts to one another.

[BlueOwl358]

*eats some fries* (I really like fries and salty food). We all know there is a massive trend of Muslims just not making sense, you can see it in the current "Migration Crisis" and the whole "Middle East Storm-ageddon". It is a fact that most, if not all of the Islamic World is senseless, and consists of failed states. There is no discussion about it, there are a lot that aren't, bust most of the nations, you can recognize that should be Islamic, are flying about in the dust. Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Syria, the whole mess. I myself live in Pakistan, and I can tell you it is a failed state, like so many others. It is senseless and obsessive and the entire nation is twisted about in false national values of pride. Probably gonna leave myself, probably don't know where. Not gonna go into much detail as to why, but we've all heard it, stupid regimes, lack of good administration and recognition of ethnicity and religions. Instead, we've all broiled up in nationalism, which can't work without a spine to support it, which can be anything from religion to race or culture or a republic or even some history. But our nations are just left over rubble from the last 100 years.

You see, Europe had massive time to settle itself out, via the world wars, these numerous treaties, and even Napoleon, by war, by the management of borders, a thousand year problem of whether Slavs or Germans should rule Pomerania, it got fixed. We didn't get the time to nuke ourself to tiredness, we got interrupted so we have to go through God knows how many years of reshaping our borders, but we can't due to global pressure. What I am saying is, either we need better management by agreement or war, but it needs to happen. Examples: Khuzestan, the Durand Line, Kurdish Division, Sunni-Shia problems in Upper Iraq or Al-Jazira, North-South Yemen, but these problems can't be fixed until nations stop trying to fix national borders in our current state, and let them fluctuate. War doesn't end until there is so much war already, nations are forced to be peaceful due to being tired.

All of this has caused massive unrest, and migrations. Why are they migrating? It is likely a mix of both, there is war in the middle east AND better living in better parts of the world, and both reasons are simultaniously trying to make it happen. Why do people keep moving to all the way to Scandanavia and not stop before hand? Well, this idea of cities of light have been so stemmed in people, they can't think of anything other than these cities, its one city that gets fixed. Personally, I love Hungary, great Budapest right in the middle of the Pannonian Basin, or Danzig, but practically, I only know english as a european language, so practically someone like me would go to the UK or somewhere, but I ain't a refugee and can choose so there is that. But most often people don't choose where they go, they flood in, regardless of reason, its human reason, and all these reasons are an excuse for this and the cause, but it would happen without chaos, just in a lesser way. It is fifty-fifty, and it is that way because both are the excuses that can make it happen, but one isn't necessarily the primary reason.

Point is, Muslims need to let their borders fluctuate or somehow mix and combine with each other, but somehow, we need better administration, and not nationalism that hinges its reality on fixed national borders.

[sister herb]

The questions I posed here were designed to help me understand why Muslims are leaving Muslim countries at great a real risk to their own lives to live in non Muslims countries, walking through Muslim countries to get to non Muslim northern Europe and on that walk choosing to walk through Christian countries to get there (e.g Serbia and not Albania). None of the replies here make any attempt to answer that question.

There seems to be no agreement here on whether they are fleeing war or simply looking for a better quality of life.

From my reading of posts on this forum I have formed the view that you (Muslims) believe the Koran has the answer to any question. What does the Koran say about where Muslims must go when leaving a Muslim country fleeing war or poverty?

When you see those people in the streets, why don´t you go to ask this from themselves? They surely know the answers to your questions better than we do. When we here try to answer to you, its like we comment on other people's things, lives and choices. They surely know them much better than we do.

[Abz2000]

Note: Abz2000 .

---

. I'd be grateful if you would refrain from posting in my thread, you are flooding it with volumes of rubbish.

your question itself is trash - considering that you have disregarded all the plain facts surrounding the issue
- and for someone who left britain with his family and moved to a 90% Muslim majority country only to be harmed and had lawful ventures sabotaged, having been offered money to export kilos of heroin by agents of influence for the british government who know i'm being watchedand have previously told me i'm being watched, and then being harassed by it's installed puppet ally which the people tried to remove and were murdered for - certainly creates a clear understanding - specially after having gone to the embassy personally and having requested them to stop the harassment and remove the tracker which has a corruptive influence.
what's telling is how they took all the questions, made me put it in writing, didn't give me an acknowledgement receipt, cut me off and changed the subject when i started to mention the drug pushing, offered me a card with a number regarding my expired passport, didn't reply or respond to any of the accusations, haven't said a word regarding the brain heammorhage they've caused despite taking in the diagnostic reports which they themselves requested me to acquire, all while proudly displayng posters about the girls they save from "forced marriages" in "medieval villages where oxen pull agricultural material".

so next time you ask a stupid question, think about the fact that someone may be feeling like ripping your throat out.

[JohnnyEnglish]

I myself live in Pakistan,.

Well done. Finally a post from a person who has considered the situation objectively, formed a balanced view and articulated it well.

[sister herb]

By the way this poll is misleading. What are you asking with it? Are all people whose come now to Europe immigrants or refugees? What if some are immigrants and some refugees? So there should to be the third option like "Both".

[JohnnyEnglish]

I have asked for your views and ignoring the diatribe from you know who and picking through the few helpful posts it seems clear that the main reasons these Muslims leave Muslim countries, travelling through other safe Muslims countries to risk their lives to get to northern Europe is because they want a better life and have formed the view that they won't get that in a Muslim country.

I can tell you what the ordinary English person thinks . . .

You will have seen on the news that we are a caring, generous people. We want to help and we want to give and we will welcome anyone in need. What we don't want and will not accept is people coming here, enjoying the safe, secure, wealthy country that we have built over hundreds of years and try and turn it into the failed country that they left. If you come here and FIT IN, adopt our cultural values, leave your baggage behind and become English, including looking like you are English you will be welcomed and accepted. If you come here and try and turn one of our towns into e.g. a mini Pakistan, you will not be welcome. We don't understand why you left that country because it was a failure and want to bring those same cultural values here and make England into the same failure. Why do those people down the road from me want to look like an outsider, why don't they wear the same clothes as us, it's like red rag to a bull, to us their appearance makes a statement and that statement is, I don't like you, I don't want to be like you, but I want your free health care and free schools and free housing and free benefits. You will say (some of you) that they and anyone can wear what they like and yes they can but you and they should know that we do 'judge a book by its cover.'

[sister herb]

Your opinions about immigrants (now you are talking about them, not the refugees whose fleeing for their lives, and hope only to find a safe place) are very typical for the typical Europeans. I read every day from the internet or from the newspapers just similar kind of opinions about refugees and immigrants like your ones. But, remember this, you are now talking about very tiny minority. The majority of the immigrants don´t want to change their new homeland to similar failure what they have moved away. I still advice you to go to talk with immigrants and discuss with them about your thoughts. They don´t bite you, I promise but you can learn to understand them better than you do now. And they too will learn to understand your fears and doubts you seem to have because of them, their different habits or their different dressings.

[Abz2000]

if you've spoken on behalf of the people of britain, i advise the Muslims to get out of London before the day of Arafah unless the Queen, her government and people repent and submit to Allah.
Don't say you haven't been warned.

And those who disbelieved, said to their Messengers: "Surely, we shall drive you out of our land, or you shall return to our religion." So their Lord inspired them: "Truly, We shall destroy the Zalimun (polytheists, disbelievers and wrong-doers.).

[Abz2000]

[BlueOwl358]

You know, the world is all full of a lot of cultures, spread over the smallest as well as biggest areas. And the specific culture in a place changes, cultures change a lot. We do need to remember that France used to be Gaul, and Celtic instead of a Germanic-Latin fusion of sorts, and the rest of the list I won't talk about. And I think that is the problem that most people are fearing, as to how these cultures are recognized and how our cultures are changing.

We've established that people can fit in these two groups of unwilling and willing people, and these two reasonings. Now, the refugees, they don't have a choice, they can't decide if they have to go, it is a decision enforced on them instead of chosen by them. We can't blame them if they settle somewhere, and they usually don't go that far, most of the Syrian refugees have gone to Jordan, and likely none to Oman. These refugees also aren't affecting culture that much, since both are Arabs. So I think we can excuse that. I also think they would go back to their own nation if it got fixed, and I mean really fixed.

Now, there is a lot of people migrating, who totally abandon their cultural values, and that is a lot of people. These people, as I said, migrate for economic reasons. Many don't have the culture, tying them, and they fit in, and this is happening a lot. Now, the nation they are migrating to, won't remain homogenous that much, as in 100 percent, but their culture, which is attracting people so much, won't topple so much because these people aren't migrating to bring their culture. As I also said, if the Islamic world is fixed, this economic gap will also fill. I believe, the cultural fixing and administration fixing will make the idea of migrating for economic reasons, useless, because there is no incentive to migrate.

Now, is there any other reason left? Why else would people migrate if they neither need an economically better life. Tourists don't live someplace forever, do they? This is all there is to it, and this is the most basic idea and hope of Muslims with hope, to fix our world, so we don't leave it.


By the way, I found this great article on another website, I think it can help a bit. Hope it does.

http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/hijrah.htm

EDIT: By the way, I found some numbers from Wikipedia with the United Nations as a Source. A total of 4.08 million refugees. 2.13 million into Turkey, 1.19 million into Lebanon, 1.4 million into Jordan, and these are the top three. The rest are below 300 thousand. Germany, the European country with the most, got 105 thousand, Greece 88 thousand.

[OmAbdullah]

It doesn't.

It Does, Yes; The Holy Quraan has answer to any problem till the end of this world and also for the problems of the Hereafter!!!

[OmAbdullah]

Greetings and peace be with you JohnnyEnglish; and welcome to the forum from another white English male, retired,



Have you considered the role of Britain and America, we went against UN resolutions to invade Iraq in 2003. As a result, Britain and America have changed Iraq from what you describe as a failed country to a war zone, we have destabilized Iraq creating over two million refugees, many of whom went to Syria. These people have lost everything, their homes, jobs, education, many of them had friends and relatives killed from the conflict.

When I grew up as a kid in the IK, I had this warm cosy feeling about our nation, the history books showed we were the good guys, but it is the victors who write the history books, and we have had a victorious history.

Now my thoughts are more for justice for all people, there seems a similarity in how the Jews were treated during WW2 and how Muslims are being treated today. First you label them as a cause of all the problems, then you take remedies to put the problem right.

Some interesting stats on refugees, it seems the majority have gone to Muslim countries........


The numbers

More than 4 million refugees have fled Syria since the war there began in 2011. According to the UN’s refugee agency, almost 1.8 million have gone to Turkey, more than 600,000 to Jordan and 1 million to Lebanon – a country whose population is just 4 million.

On Monday, Angela Merkel said Germany expected to take at least 800,000 asylum seekers this year. The figure is likely to go up, and could hit 1 million, Berlin says. In 2014 the European nation that accepted the largest number of refugees in proportion to its population was Sweden. Hungary, Malta, Switzerland and 13 other countries accepted more asylum applications than the UK, according to Eurostat.

Between June 2014 and June 2015, the UK took 166 Syrian refugees. They were resettled from camps in Jordan and other neighbouring countries under a new government scheme. The “vulnerable persons” relocation initiative began in March 2014. Under it, the UK has taken 216 people. In June David Cameron said the scheme would be “modestly expanded”.

The Home Office says that since 2011 almost 5,000 Syrians including family members have been given asylum under normal procedures. However, the figure includes many Syrians who were already living in the UK, and who were unable to return home because of war. Britain is the second biggest bilateral donor of humanitarian aid. It has pledged £900m, the Home Office says.
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...pare-migration

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

Salaam,

True, very true. May Allah bless you for expressing the Truth. O' Brother, May Allah bless you with the Truth of Islam. Thanks a lot, you are the only non-Muslim who expressed true and just words!!

[JohnnyEnglish]

Your opinions about immigrants (now you are talking about them, not the refugees whose fleeing for their lives, and hope only to find a safe place) are very typical for the typical Europeans..

That is the question I asked - are they refugees fleeing war or economic migrants trying to get into a prosperous, safe, well managed country and the consensus amongst the members here is that they are the latter. If they were refugees feeling war they wouldn't pay E4,000 to get into a leaking boat and risk their lives leaving Turkey a stable safe Muslim country.

[JohnnyEnglish]

hijrah . htm

Thanks for the helpful and informative link (which I am not allowed to post). Clearly I am not Muslim, clearly 99% of you members here are. It may be that I am misunderstanding the information at this link or it may be that it is wrong but if it is right it seems to suggest that forbids you from living in land ruled by non Muslims. So, not only are these migrants not doing as Islam decrees but all of you living in Europe and America are ignoring your religious edicts! How hypocritical are you?

[sister herb]

That is the question I asked - are they refugees fleeing war or economic migrants trying to get into a prosperous, safe, well managed country and the consensus amongst the members here is that they are the latter. If they were refugees feeling war they wouldn't pay E4,000 to get into a leaking boat and risk their lives leaving Turkey a stable safe Muslim country.

You asked the question but you have already decided what is the right answer.

Are you sure that Turkey is a safe and stable country? If you would be in the life danger, would you take a risk (and pay everything you have) to be sure you can find a place where you are safe? I would. Its only a money and to me my life is more valuable than all the money of this world.

Yes, those masses whose now are coming to Europe are refugees.

I read every day from the internet and newspapers similar "evidences" like this your one - from there people whose say that of course its needed to help people in need but those whose are now coming here aren´t real ones etc. They refuse to see the reality but call these people as "economic refugees". Specially kind of hate-speech comes from the supporters of the far-right parties.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you JohnnyEnglish;

How hypocritical are you?

You cannot call desperate people hypocrites, especially from the comfort and safety of your own fairly peaceful home. You cannot comprehend the misery and suffering they have endured, and how they came to make their decisions to move, unless you have experienced it yourself.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

[sister herb]

I see that now people would have a good opportunity to show to those people in need the best of themselves and try to help if they ever can. Europeans claim so often (well some, not all of course) that Islam is not very peacefull religion, specially comparing to their own one. Its a good time to behave now as "the Good Samaritan". In here some have already done so, the ordinary people have took refugees to live to their homes as well the churches have opened their doors for the emergency accommodation situations. From news I have read how people have gave food and water to refugees etc.

Its much better than spread own prejudices in the social media.

I would like to challenge all Europeans: show in the practice how kind and peaceful your religion is, when you meet a person in distress. Do you walk away (and go back to internet to claim these people are not real refugees at all) or do you stop and ask can you help?

[Perspective]

Gulf countries have certainly walked away by not taking refugees from Syria. Left with nothing the refugees are trying to travel thousands of miles away from Middle East to reach countries like Germany and Austria, etc. Because apparently they are looked after better in those countries . JonnyEnglish, they want a shelter, food and safe place.

Also, regarding economic migrants - Ofcourse life is much better in UK, quality of healthcare, education, living standards and laws are much better than those in Middle Eastern countries therefore, they migrate. And the benefits, ofcourse ( in some cases) .

[sister herb]

Why we wouldn´t try to look this matter of refugees from the other perspective:

Many European countries suffer from demographic distortion and low birth rate. On a shame that Europeans do not see the refugees a good thing that many refugees are young people who are the future starting a family and have children. Humane Europeans unfortunately sometimes say that these refugees are the wrong kinds of people and they have the wrong religion. They refuse to understand that Europe has always been a multicultural area by several local cultures, values of life and religions.

Some say that those refugees will destroy the original European culture. Hmm... now in the Europe population is about 750 million people. Few more millions wouldn´t do anything for the average "European culture" - what ever it really is.

[Perspective]

Are you saying that Gulf countries have no duty to accept refugees ? You have posted some link on other post and you can see it for yourself, how many refugees have gone to european countries already. Whereas, Gulf countries have taken zero refugees. Your argument about birth rate hold no water because many countries who have taken refugees has around same birth rate as those countries.

[Gale]

They refuse to understand that Europe has always been a multicultural area by several local cultures, values of life and religions

This is not the case. Europe has not always been multicultural. The peoples of Europe were relatively homogenous, just as they were in Asian countries.

The idea of "(insert country) is a nation of immigrants" is merely a psychological construction by advocates of mass immigration and the multicultural idea.

[sister herb]

This is not the case. Europe has not always been multicultural. The peoples of Europe were relatively homogenous, just as they were in Asian countries.

The idea of "(insert country) is a nation of immigrants" is merely a psychological construction by advocates of mass immigration and the multicultural idea.

I wonder how far to the history we have to go that "Europe isn´t multicultural". Maybe to the time of the Neanderthals and mammoths.

If I think for example my country, Finland in the North Europe; well, for the centuries here people have spoken very different kind of languages (Finnish, Swedish, Russian, Romani and Sami - languages witch are not even relative together), they have came from very different backgrounds and have had different religious. I believe that same have been the main situation also in the other parts of the Europe too.

I could call this quite multicultural.

[Gale]

I wonder how far to the history we have to go that "Europe isn´t multicultural". Maybe to the time of the Neanderthals and mammoths.

If I think for example my country, Finland in the North Europe; well, for the centuries here people have spoken very different kind of languages (Finnish, Swedish, Russian, Romani and Sami - languages witch are not even relative together), they have came from very different backgrounds and have had different religious. I believe that same have been the main situation also in the other parts of the Europe too.

I could call this quite multicultural.

That is not multiculturalism but simple geography. Swedes, Russians and Sami are all native peoples of countries that border Finland. In Finland itself the Finnish ethnic group comprises the majority of the population and the Finnish language predominates.

The historic religious affiliation of Finns has been either Lutheranism or Orthodoxy (in smaller numbers). Finland is hardly a multicultural melting pot when the majority of its population consist of ethnic Finns who speak Finnish and have a background in the Lutheran faith. I know there are Tatars, Sami and others but they are in small numbers and again, they are native to Northern Europe and Eurasia.

[MuslimInshallah]

The idea of "(insert country) is a nation of immigrants" is merely a psychological construction by advocates of mass immigration and the multicultural idea.

Greetings Gale,


Mmm… (smile) We are all immigrants, sooner or later. Human beings have been migrating and mixing since the beginning of recorded history (and well before, indeed). (smile) And this has brought richness and flavour to our lives. (twinkle) Though we tend to resist it at first.

Here in Canada, many of us (like myself) are recent immigrants. We also have people whose ancestors arrived tens or hundreds or many thousands of years ago. (smile) And we are mixing and creating a society that can include everyone, while honouring people's wishes to hold onto some part of their identity they hold dear. (smile) Is everything perfect? Of course not! We are human, and thus imperfect. But we generally believe that we can and should work on building something together for everyone.

(smile) And all in all, I feel, things are working out pretty well.


May God, the Creator of us all, Help us to see the commonalities and savour the differences.

[MuslimInshallah]

That is the question I asked - are they refugees fleeing war or economic migrants trying to get into a prosperous, safe, well managed country and the consensus amongst the members here is that they are the latter. If they were refugees feeling war they wouldn't pay E4,000 to get into a leaking boat and risk their lives leaving Turkey a stable safe Muslim country.

Greetings again Johnny,


Mmm… (gently) I'd say the "consensus" you're talking about is actually what you believe and what you want to justify to yourself and try to convince other people of.

Refugees fleeing war are exactly the sort of people you'd expect to risk their and their children's lives to get somewhere safer. Why on earth would someone who is in a safe and stable place take their babies and children and pay large sums of money to risk drownings, beatings by boarder guards, racist hecklings, trudging in the rain across unknown countrysides, suffocating in trucks …?

The fact that pregnant women and parents of children are risking their lives and the lives of their little ones speaks to me of the desperation of these people to find sanctuary. Refugee camps are not a safe and stable place to be. They are holding pens where lives are in stasis. These are not places anyone would want their children to grow up in. They are not places where you can build a life.

Do refugees hope to build better lives for their children? Of course they do! And from what Canada has experienced of refugees, they tend to make excellent citizens who work hard and contribute to their host society. And their children tend to become integrated and productive members of society. Why? Because they tend to be brave and grateful people who want a better life for their children.

I had neighbours who were Hungarian refugees. I had friends growing up who were refugees from Vietnam, from Central America, from Iran. My children (who had a refugee father) are friends with the children of refugees from Somalia. All these people came from very diverse places, but they all have become part of the Canadian mosaic. (smile) In all their beauty and human failings.

(gently) I understand that you are uncomfortable with your neighbours in the UK that you don't know very well. But as Sister Herb has suggested, perhaps you could take steps to get to know them better? We fear what we do not know. But when we deal with our fear, we can open such doors of freedom and wonder…! (smile) as Eric H has… walking the dark streets at night to grasp the hands of broken strangers.


May God, the Almighty, Bolster our courage and Help us to take steps into the dark unknowns in our lives… and into the brightness of His Pure Light.

[sister herb]

That is not multiculturalism but simple geography. Swedes, Russians and Sami are all native peoples of countries that border Finland. In Finland itself the Finnish ethnic group comprises the majority of the population and the Finnish language predominates.

Actually this is not true. Only Sami people are native in Finland. We all others are immigrants - also we who now call ourselves as Finnish and Europeans. Scientists do not all agree with each other from where we originally are coming from. ;D

Oops, also Sami people have came to here from somewhere... Ok, let´s agree that they were here at the first. We others are then immigrants.

Also Christianity isn´t native religion in Finland. Its a religion of the Swedish occupiers.

We can go back to the historical times and find how many of those people, whose we now call themselves as "pure Europeans" have moved to the Europe - so their origin too is something else than "European". We also can remember how big part of the other religions and cultures have had (and still has) to the "European culture" like muslims in the Spain or think about the political and cultural influence of the Ottoman Empire to the Europe and so on.

But now back to the topic please. We are not talking here if Europe is multicultural or what ever it is. We are also talking about refugees and our responsibility to take care of the people whose need help and shelter.

Isn´t it a part of the faith of the Christians to help your fellowmen whose are in need, if I have understood it right? Not try to find excuses like "Europe isn´t multicultural" and by them try to keep those people need help outside.

[Gale]

Mmm… (smile) We are all immigrants, sooner or later. Human beings have been migrating and mixing since the beginning of recorded history (and well before, indeed). (smile) And this has brought richness and flavour to our lives. (twinkle) Though we tend to resist it at first.

Of course, there is no denying that we were all immigrants at some point. Our ancestors all entered certain lands thousands of years ago.

However, everyone and I mean everyone has a piece of this earth on which their ancestors have lived for at least a thousand years or so. It does not matter whether a person is a Sindhi in Pakistan or a Flemish speaker in Belgium. I can guarantee you that their ancestry in those lands will go back several generations. If this was not so then why do we have different languages and why do people look a certain way in different countries? There is absolutely nothing wrong with ackowledging the diversity of mankind, providing it is done in a positive manner.

Here in Canada, many of us (like myself) are recent immigrants. We also have people whose ancestors arrived tens or hundreds or many thousands of years ago. (smile) And we are mixing and creating a society that can include everyone, while honouring people's wishes to hold onto some part of their identity they hold dear. (smile) Is everything perfect? Of course not! We are human, and thus imperfect. But we generally believe that we can and should work on building something together for everyone.

Indeed the majority of those in Canada are recent immigrants. The native peoples of North America were unjustly deprived of their rightful homelands.

I fail to see why rejecting the notion of a melting pot society entails being unable to accomodate everyone. A society can still have immigrants while not losing its identity. I'm not opposed to immigration but there is a worry that the native peoples of Europe will become a minority in their ancestral lands.

Actually this is not true. Only Sami people are native in Finland. We all others are immigrants - also we who now call ourselves as Finnish and Europeans. Scientists do not all agree with each other from where we originally are coming from. ;D

What? The Finnish speaking Finns in Finland are not natives to their own country? ^o)

When did the Finns reach Finland and where did they come from? Somehow I doubt it was in recent times and I'm sure it was well before even the Middle Ages. To say the Finns are not native to their own country is unfair to them.

Also Christianity isn´t native religion in Finland. Its a religion of the Swedish occupiers.

And Islam outside Arabia is also the religion of the conquering Arabs?

We can go back to the historical times and find how many of those people, whose we now call themselves as "pure Europeans" have moved to the Europe - so their origin too is something else than "European". We also can remember how big part of the other religions and cultures have had (and still has) to the "European culture" like muslims in the Spain or think about the political and cultural influence of the Ottoman Empire to the Europe and so on.

The majority of those in Europe, just as in Asia have been there for at minimum since the year 500 AD.

I don't deny that Muslims influenced Spain or the Balkans. However we must remember that those lands expelled Muslim invasions by force.

But now back to the topic please. We are not talking here if Europe is multicultural or what ever it is. We are also talking about refugees and our responsibility to take care of the people whose need help and shelter.

Isn´t it a part of the faith of the Christians to help your fellowmen whose are in need, if I have understood it right? Not try to find excuses like "Europe isn´t multicultural" and by them try to keep those people need help outside.

Yes and I think the refugees should be admitted to Europe in as large a number as is possible. I simply worry that it will create problems in the distant future.

[sister herb]

All international migrations have caused more or less problems during the history but without them our world would to be very different than its today as well our nations and our history books might be a lot of thinner. If you compare for example what kind of problems Europeans invasions to the America, Australia or to the South Africa caused to its original inhabitans... and now we don´t see it would be possible to resettle all European immigrants back to the good old Europe, right?

But this is one crisis now, and maybe we shouldn´t compare it to the historical migrations. But anyways, the world has always being as a highway where different people have walked back and forth, where different kind of cultures have mixed together. Maybe we just have to be ready to that.

Hmm... Maybe not so clear sentence but I am tired and my brain do not form clear ideas in a foreign language. Good night.

[Scimitar]

Hi Johnny,

nice to read you, and your concerns...

...have you tried talking to refugees? we can't really answer for them, sorry.

Scimi

[JohnnyEnglish]

Hi Johnny,
nice to read you, and youur concerns...
...have you tried talking to refugees? we can't really answer for them, sorry.
Scimi

Yes, others have suggested that and so I did. The first few ignored me just walking past me. But I eventually spoke to a couple from Somalia with a child. He told me (the woman never spoke) that conditions in Somalia were bad, poor, dangerous and that they wanted a better life for themselves and their family. I asked them why they made no attempt to integrate by dressing as we do and they said that their religion decrees tat they must not integrate and that regard must not wear the same clothing as none Muslims. Were they wrong?

[Scimitar]

You were wrong to impose dress codes on them... don't you know? Diversity.

Try again.

This time, try not to offend anothers choices like a bigot.

Scimi

[JohnnyEnglish]

You were wrong to impose dress codes on them... don't you know? Diversity.
Try again.
This time, try not to offend anothers choices like a bigot.
Scimi

Calling me names doesn't answer my question - where they wrong and if so why?

[sister herb]

Calling me names doesn't answer my question - where they wrong and if so why?

No they weren´t wrong but you was when you decided to ask something like this.

[Scimitar]

Calling me names doesn't answer my question - where they wrong and if so why?

Are you seriously attempting to justify your bigotry? :D

I see you.

Scimi

[M.I.A.]

Calling me names doesn't answer my question - where they wrong and if so why?

should have asked them who they were fleeing from, taken it from there.

come on johnny! what do you want from them.


....on a lighter note, my daughters just been learning about l.s. lowry

[JohnnyEnglish]

Muslim foreigners come to my country for the safety and security and all the other benefits we give for free but will refuse to integrate because their religion decrees that they must not integrate and must not wear the same clothing as none Muslims as an overt act display that they will not integrate and you call me a bigot for asking the question - INCREDIBLE

[M.I.A.]

Muslim foreigners come to my country for the safety and security and all the other benefits we give for free but will refuse to integrate because their religion decrees that they must not integrate and must not wear the same clothing as none Muslims as an overt act display that they will not integrate and you call me a bigot for asking the question - INCREDIBLE

i know the irony is even worse... im sure the last thing you want to say is that they all look the same.


:l

[M.I.A.]

Muslim foreigners come to my country for the safety and security and all the other benefits we give for free but will refuse to integrate because their religion decrees that they must not integrate and must not wear the same clothing as none Muslims as an overt act display that they will not integrate and you call me a bigot for asking the question - INCREDIBLE

i know the irony is even worse... im sure the last thing you want to say is that they all look the same.


on a side note, two jewish communities have more chance of dressing similarly than two muslim communities.

pot... meet kettle.


:l


the nerve of this one guy.. seriously. i dont know who he is but seriously.

Attachment 5500

on another side note, attend friday prayer and you will probably see some integration.

Attachment 5501

although they wear different hats in england. fair play to em really thats like getting dressed for work every day.. effort.


Attachment 5502

...when ya bin on the forum too long

[sister herb]

Does the integrating only means that they have to wear similar clothes like an typical, average European? I see this is a big problem as its very difficult to find how "a typical average European" really wears. Do you want this because then they wouldn´t be so conspicuous on the streets? I am not sure what this to do with the integration. In my country has also had discussions about this matter but in here most of the people means by this word that they have to learn the language and understand the values of the country. It doesn´t mean they have to change similar like we Finnish are or forget their own background or roots of own habits, but they like we too, need to learn to respect each other´s ways of life and religions. Is it bad for the integration if muslims for example keep their old habits and don´t eat ham? Eating ham is quite European habit too (well Jews don´t eat it and they too have strong own habits but we in Europe can´t say anything against Jews or we will be called as the anti-semitics and racists, but about Muslims and their habits we can say what ever - its only the freedom of the speech).

By the way, I have seen that many ladies here like some the African style dresses like Somalian or Congolese. Maybe it will be the next fashion in the Europe. ;D

If not, maybe we Europeans will need some kind of European uniform which all in Europe have to use - like in the Mao´s China.

[Scimitar]

Muslim foreigners come to my country for the safety and security and all the other benefits we give for free but will refuse to integrate because their religion decrees that they must not integrate and must not wear the same clothing as none Muslims as an overt act display that they will not integrate and you call me a bigot for asking the question - INCREDIBLE

Yeah and Muslim "foreigners" also helped to rebuild your country post world war two draft... your point is moot.

I can see how bigoted you really are.

You don't hav an intellectual premise upon which you can rely here.

Just admit it - you don't like the idea of "foreigners".

Scimi

[MuslimInshallah]

Greetings Johnny,


(smile) In a way I agree that newcomers may dress inappropriately when they first arrive in their new home. (laugh) Canadian winters aren't quite the same as tropical rainy seasons, for instance!

(smile) But, you know, I question whether the modern fashions are really quite location-appropriate, either. For instance, is it really sensible for very pale-skinned people to wear little clothing in the North's brief summertime? The skin cancer rates would suggest otherwise…

I've also noticed that generally, over time, people do often adapt their clothing to what is considered the norm in their society. Everyone? No. But many. But of course, there are always some who like to be a bit different. Some people like to wear abayas. Some like goth. Some like fancy suits. (smile) Etc. But is this a bad thing?

(smile) I've tried quite a lot of different clothing styles over time. From a traditional sari, to a flowing african batik outfit, to abayas, to shalwa kameez, to Caucasian-style skirts and tops (mmm… Caucasians from the Caucasus, that is), to skiing snow pants and coats… (smile) as well as various combinations of jeans and tunics and sweaters… Right now, I've found ways to layer shorter dresses over long skirts and long-sleeved T-shirts. And you know what? It's all rather fun!

Here in Canada, we generally don't feel great issues over what people wear. What we really value is that people get along and respect one another. Having superficial differences is not a terrible thing, it's actually quite nice. As MIA rather amusingly pointed out, it's not very enjoyable if everyone is exactly the same.


(smile) May God, the One who Created us all, Open our eyes to the beauty and learning opportunities of difference.

[sister herb]

Maybe all this is just a fear of difference. When others don´t look familiar we are unsure about them. It doesn´t change our own prejudices and fears if immigrants would all use jeans and shave their beards. They still doesn´t look same like pale-faced Europeans. Like sister MuslimInshallah wrote (smile, I like your always smiling posts by the way) wrote, the most important is to respect one another, just same what they are dressing or what they are looking for.

[M.I.A.]

here johonny in response to the OP, although its not my own work.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvOnXh3NN9w

[JohnnyEnglish]

here johonny in response to the OP, although its not my own work.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvOnXh3NN9w

I watched the youtube clip, thanks. And, yes it was a decent summary of how it got to where it is. I noted the commentator's final words were "take them in and assimilate them" which caused me to raised a wry smile. I then read the comments on the clip which end with one saying . . . "My ancestors came to America and assimilated into American culture, are you claiming the Syrian muslims are going to do the same thing? You know **** well they're not, they never do, it's not islamic"

And that's what I've been saying since I joined this forum . . . the overwhelming majority of Brits welcome immigrants/refugees as long as they assimilate and that means accepting the Queen as your Sovereign leader, giving your allegiance to Britain, adopting all OUR cultural values and NOT setting up mini Pakistan etc., in our towns.

[M.I.A.]

It's not Islamic?

Where I live, within a mile there are seven mosques. I work opposite a church, I walk past a synagogue.. I know where the Sikh temple is.. And within a mile there are several of all.

What do you mean set up a mini Pakistan? I can't even eat at McDonalds!

The irony is the English had a hand in setting up the actual Pakistan...

The worst thing is that they still haven't learned to share the small piece of land between them.. Aka Kashmir.

Mankind is always the same.

Just one of those things I'm afraid.

I have no idea why some people insist everything has to be dismantled just to rebuild.

[sister herb]

About the refugees one comment:

In the long term, in Finland the future of the great number of refugees is beneficial, says Bank of Finland Governor Erkki Liikanen. According to him, foreign labor restore the health of the Finnish population structure and help to finance the welfare state in the future.

Yes in Finland too is people whose think that refugees and immigrants are welcomed only if they blend perfectly with the Finnish culture but they are minority in here. They, of course, claim that all Finnish think alike. Maybe its same in the UK too that minority wants that others believe they are majority.

[M.I.A.]

About the refugees one comment:

In the long term, in Finland the future of the great number of refugees is beneficial, says Bank of Finland Governor Erkki Liikanen. According to him, foreign labor restore the health of the Finnish population structure and help to finance the welfare state in the future.

Yes in Finland too is people whose think that refugees and immigrants are welcomed only if they blend perfectly with the Finnish culture but they are minority in here. They, of course, claim that all Finnish think alike. Maybe its same in the UK too that minority wants that others believe they are majority.

I guess that is the difference, the Jewish community has a reputation of Having leverage.. And yet it's probably one of the smaller minorities.

It's not always the case but its not what you have that's important but rather what you do with it.

Sooo clichéd

Another article, strong language...

http://www.cracked.com/personal-expe...old-us_p4.html

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you JohnnyEnglish;

the overwhelming majority of Brits welcome immigrants/refugees as long as they assimilate and that means accepting the Queen as your Sovereign leader,

Our newly elected leader of the labour party, Jeremy Corbin, does not seem that accepting of the Queen as sovereign leader.

giving your allegiance to Britain, adopting all OUR cultural values and NOT setting up mini Pakistan etc., in our towns.

Britain is not God, I cannot give my allegiance to Britain when it goes off to war unjustly with Afghanistan and Iraq. I disagree with the economy in Britain, the laws are written to protect and increase the wealth of the rich.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

[sister herb]

"overwhelming majority of the Brits..." are thinking this and that...

In here too some people claims that "the overwhelming majority" of the Finns are thinking this and that. We have had demonstrations here in the streets for and against refugees. In the demonstrations against refugees usually participation has been from 50 to 200 and for the taking more refugees (and against the racism) from few thousands to 10 000. In the social media, those whose are against (and whose support racism) are usually noisiest but they repeat the same old phrases (just same ones like Johnny does in here).

[M.I.A.]

Greetings and peace be with you JohnnyEnglish;


Our newly elected leader of the labour party, Jeremy Corbin, does not seem that accepting of the Queen as sovereign leader.



Britain is not God, I cannot give my allegiance to Britain when it goes off to war unjustly with Afghanistan and Iraq. I disagree with the economy in Britain, the laws are written to protect and increase the wealth of the rich.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

i dont understand this?


imagine britain as a muslim country or even at a stretch.. a caliphate..

do you think they would behave any differently? ...or enforce expansion under nicer terms?

keep it in mind when next reading peoples posts.

not just england, take any place...

iraq?

afghanistan?

lybia...

the list goes on... and those are places where the vast majority is muslim.



here is a ship, blame the captain.


here is a pirate ship...

[JohnnyEnglish]

What do you mean set up a mini Pakistan

In some towns in the UK (e.g. Bradford) there are large areas where the population is 100% Pakistani. You can walk for miles and apart from the weather and general good order you would think you were in Pakistan. So what? First of all we (natives) understand why anyone and everyone in Pakistan would want to get out of there but we don't understand why they would want to then re-create the 'dogs dinner' that is Pakistan within the UK. Next thing is we worry that we don't want all those bad cultural attitudes that dragged Pakistan into the gutter to leech their way into our society. Next thing is, you are never going to integrate if you segregate/isolate yourselves from the local ethnic community and failure to integrate is (in the UK) universally accepted as bad.

Before you may criticise me for not wanting foreigners setting up their own country within my country I would draw your attention to the Chinese community in Indonesia who were/are forced to change their names to Indonesian names i.e. forced to integrate!

[JohnnyEnglish]

Britain is not God, I cannot give my allegiance to Britain

Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's etc., . . . . . . Did you forget?

[M.I.A.]

In some towns in the UK (e.g. Bradford) there are large areas where the population is 100% Pakistani. You can walk for miles and apart from the weather and general good order you would think you were in Pakistan. So what? First of all we (natives) understand why anyone and everyone in Pakistan would want to get out of there but we don't understand why they would want to then re-create the 'dogs dinner' that is Pakistan within the UK. Next thing is we worry that we don't want all those bad cultural attitudes that dragged Pakistan into the gutter to leech their way into our society. Next thing is, you are never going to integrate if you segregate/isolate yourselves from the local ethnic community and failure to integrate is (in the UK) universally accepted as bad.

Before you may criticise me for not wanting foreigners setting up their own country within my country I would draw your attention to the Chinese community in Indonesia who were/are forced to change their names to Indonesian names i.e. forced to integrate!

hi my names john and im a closet muslim.. reading by candle light and not peering out the curtains when the police drive past.

no.

...actually im going to choose Jeffery, david, noah or something more appropriate... the list goes on

maybe...abraham.. like the president.

up until dogs dinner i really was giving you a lot of benefit.

the main thing that pakistan lacks is a coherent government..

you dont have to worry because im sure you vote.

although i have no idea who the new labour guy is?


ok and now for my insight, i moved alone to a majority white town as far as you can go from bradford... any further and i would have had to learn how to swim.

stayed there for six years.


i really didnt notice the white people. :/

met the white yout and the white elderly, got told of for spitting from an old white women...

we dont do that in this country she said.

....i never did that again.


reminded me of alf garnett


but now i notice and id like to say im becoming politically correct.. but dont let the wind change.



on a lighter note, my brothers son is called Adam.. which should set you at ease.

although i worry for becoming a bad uncle.

[Abz2000]

Before you may criticise me for not wanting foreigners setting up their own country within my country I would draw your attention to the Chinese community in Indonesia who were/are forced to change their names to Indonesian names i.e. forced to integrate!

your country lol, dude you sound like eustace being introduced on the dawn treader in narnia, this is planet earth, the finest ship in the universe, the owner is God, those who obey God's laws (Muslims) are law abiding citizens, those who ungratefully reject God, God's laws, refuse to submit to Him, and-or show enmity to God, His angels, and His law abiding servants - are henious criminals.
you are commanded to submit to God, whether on earth, on the moon, on mars or on pluto, all fall within God's dominion ok?

And next time you see a rainbow, know that it is from God's light, could even be from an angel behind you, and please don't start wondering if sodomites own the land under it, the earth is God's OK? And so's the rainbow.........
no human being can carve out a kafir dominion inside God's dominion and expect to start making rules that are in contravention of God's Laws without expecting the consequences.
Repent and submit to God and receive glad tidings. Don't reject God's authority, i am a sincere warner to you in the face of a severe punishment.

and please don't even get me started on the past evils you've done in pakistan and india which continue to feel the effects of your colonial, corrupt and meddling policies.anyway, if britain is your country, (the bank of england lays more claim to it than the "commoner" (not my definition, your highnesses) kuffar since that was the catalyst that formed the kingdom of great britain after the templars moved down from scotland and excercised their usurious financial clout), what in heaven's name were the countries that you unlawfully invaded and prefixed as "british empire"?
and more recently the afghanistan and iraq wmd falsehoods? were they your countries too?

[Abz2000]

Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's etc., . . . . . . Did you forget?

give to Caesar any private property and rights to which he is lawfully entitled by God, and give to God His kingdom by becoming ministers who establish the Rule of God.

What's wrong with you? You give a broad a crown and a diamond stolen from india and she starts getting delusions of grandeur?

But you are not to be like that. Instead, the greatest among you should be like the youngest, and the one who rules like the one who serves.

Did you forget O commoner?

[Zafran]

In some towns in the UK (e.g. Bradford) there are large areas where the population is 100% Pakistani. You can walk for miles and apart from the weather and general good order you would think you were in Pakistan. So what? First of all we (natives) understand why anyone and everyone in Pakistan would want to get out of there but we don't understand why they would want to then re-create the 'dogs dinner' that is Pakistan within the UK. Next thing is we worry that we don't want all those bad cultural attitudes that dragged Pakistan into the gutter to leech their way into our society. Next thing is, you are never going to integrate if you segregate/isolate yourselves from the local ethnic community and failure to integrate is (in the UK) universally accepted as bad.

Before you may criticise me for not wanting foreigners setting up their own country within my country I would draw your attention to the Chinese community in Indonesia who were/are forced to change their names to Indonesian names i.e. forced to integrate!

Most people living in Bradford are from the UK - they are UK citizens. There is no "native" vs non native idea in the UK. If your a citizen of the UK your equal to any other citizen regardless of Race, Gender, religion and sexual orientation. Secondly most British Pakistanis do live together in Bradford but thats similar to any other ethnic groups be it black people in London or indian hindus in Leicester. They do this because of safety - The UK was a very racist place pre 90s. It is still a racist place - so its understandable why they live like that.

Last point without immigration we wouldn't have the things that have helped the UK economy be they curry houses, Chinese takeaways, clothes shops or massive companies like best way or pataks. integration also works both ways. If your going to run away from non white people then they will do the same. Its human nature

[Abz2000]

Most people living in Bradford are from the UK - they are UK citizens. There is no "native" vs non native idea in the UK. If your a citizen of the UK your equal to any other citizen regardless of Race, Gender, religion and sexual orientation. Secondly most British Pakistanis do live together in Bradford but thats similar to any other ethnic groups be it black people in London or indian hindus in Leicester. They do this because of safety - The UK was a very racist place pre 90s. It is still a racist place - so its understandable why they live like that.

Last point without immigration we wouldn't have the things that have helped the UK economy be they curry houses, Chinese takeaways, clothes shops or massive companies like best way or pataks. integration also works both ways. If your going to run away from non white people then they will do the same. Its human nature

wot on earth?
the way of life (Islam) that Allah has revealed is prescribed upon all of mankind, i know curry is halal and so is halal shepherd's pie.
(you really sound like someone standing in front of a restaurant and pleading "sar, i gib u haf price carry with firi ishtartar, please, y u no like me"?
There are Muslims from all races and backgrounds and the media is making you forget that by the constant display of immigrants combined with the term Islam. psychological manipulation, generalization.

when the Prophet pbuh proclaimed the message in Makkah, the majority of people around him were Quraish tribe, Makkan Arabs.....though at the time they did have many slaves who were very quick to accept the truth since the Aristocratic pagan Meccan way of life wasn't working for them and had lost it's magical spell over their psyches.

Ironically the Quraishis also tried to portray Islam as a way of life appealing to slaves, the weak and foolish, (the term sabee was adopted despite all reverts clarifying that they had submitted to Allah)
that facade disappeared and turned to bitter hatred when the sons and daughters from the most well known clans in Makkah began to accept the truth (they were realising that the Prophet pbuh was calling them to the truth and that alcoholism, nights of gambling with dice, sexual promiscuity like cats and dogs etc were not noble traits but humiliation.
Muslims are brothers and sisters in faith - regardless of race or wealth.
The way of life which Allah has revealed is not a false matrix system that survives off of self deception and false constructs.

[sister herb]

Muslims are brothers and sisters in faith - regardless of race or wealth.

This is same what the Christianity teaches - that every other people are their fellowmen. But when it goes to the immigrant issue, why so many then forget this teaching? I don´t generalize and say all but many.

[Abz2000]

This is same what the Christianity teaches - that every other people are their fellowmen. But when it goes to the immigrant issue, why so many then forget this teaching? I don´t generalize and say all but many.

are you attempting to say that the leadership in britain or the commoners in britain practice christianity except when it comes to immigrants?

lol have you ever switched on the t.v or walked out into the streets in britain?


does the adoption of the more english sounding name "windsor" in place of the more german sounding name "sax coburg-gotha" after the first world war when english patriotism and anti-germanism had become the lifeline not ring a bell?
Does the fact that Mr Battenburg of the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg
(who was schooled by a man by the name of kurt hahn who was a german spy during the first world war tasked with intercepting and collecting british political interaction data) changed his name to mountbatten not indicate to you that the theory of nationalism is soil worshipping idolatry installed into the minds of the masses in order to keep them docile?
did the letters of philip's uncle instructing him on how best to groom young miss elizabeth not make it a little clearer?

[sister herb]

^^ I didn´t say anything about how the British follow in Christian teachings. More I wondered why they did not follow them when it comes to refugees or to the immigrants. Maybe some are feeling that their fellowmen are only other Christians or other British.

An image what comes to my mind in this discussion is one cartoon of Charlie Hebdo, where a man is walking on the water and next to the Muslim child sinks. Of my mind it describes some European´s arrogance and distorted view of their own humanity. Or actually a lack of humanity.

[Abz2000]

^^ I didn´t say anything about how the British follow in Christian teachings. More I wondered why they did not follow them when it comes to refugees or to the immigrants. Maybe some are feeling that their fellowmen are only other Christians or other British.

An image what comes to my mind in this discussion is one cartoon of Charlie Hebdo, where a man is walking on the water and next to the Muslim child sinks. Of my mind it describes some European´s arrogance and distorted view of their own humanity. Or actually a lack of humanity.

humanity?
wasn't that reserved for the human rights of inanimate baal statues unable to see, hear or speak in syria while they bombed humans and dwellings of humans?
obama and putin (both patsies) appear to enjoy playing chess on brzezinski's grand chessboard.
forgotten the posturing during the escalation in libya?






"Innama WALIYUKUM Allah wa rasuluhu wa allatheena amanu: allatheena yuqeemuna al salata wa ya'toona al zakata wa hum raki'uoon."
Quran 5:55

[sister herb]

Humanism is that what Europeans claim to be an experts but what is a missing feature from the others, especially Muslims - as some Europeans believe.

^o)

[Abz2000]

seek the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth and believe the truth, it will be better for you.

the earth cannot be round and flat at the same time when you look at it in whole, although it can appear flat as you look around you at greenwich park.

and no matter how much we know or come to believe, God always knows best so let's acknowledge Him and submit to and obey Him totally.

[Zafran]

wot on earth?
the way of life (Islam) that Allah has revealed is prescribed upon all of mankind, i know curry is halal and so is halal shepherd's pie.
(you really sound like someone standing in front of a restaurant and pleading "sar, i gib u haf price carry with firi ishtartar, please, y u no like me"?
There are Muslims from all races and backgrounds and the media is making you forget that by the constant display of immigrants combined with the term Islam. psychological manipulation, generalization.

when the Prophet pbuh proclaimed the message in Makkah, the majority of people around him were Quraish tribe, Makkan Arabs.....though at the time they did have many slaves who were very quick to accept the truth since the Aristocratic pagan Meccan way of life wasn't working for them and had lost it's magical spell over their psyches.

Ironically the Quraishis also tried to portray Islam as a way of life appealing to slaves, the weak and foolish, (the term sabee was adopted despite all reverts clarifying that they had submitted to Allah)
that facade disappeared and turned to bitter hatred when the sons and daughters from the most well known clans in Makkah began to accept the truth (they were realising that the Prophet pbuh was calling them to the truth and that alcoholism, nights of gambling with dice, sexual promiscuity like cats and dogs etc were not noble traits but humiliation.
Muslims are brothers and sisters in faith - regardless of race or wealth.
The way of life which Allah has revealed is not a false matrix system that survives off of self deception and false constructs.

salaam

You need to see what people are actually saying. Immigration - like the prophet Muhammad pbuh doing hijra from Mecca to medina. Or the prophet sending some of the companions to a Christian ruler in Abyssinia. I'm not sure if your from the UK but this discussion about immigration is a very hot topic. You need to focus on the thread rather then making general posts.

[Zafran]

^^ I didn´t say anything about how the British follow in Christian teachings. More I wondered why they did not follow them when it comes to refugees or to the immigrants. Maybe some are feeling that their fellowmen are only other Christians or other British.

An image what comes to my mind in this discussion is one cartoon of Charlie Hebdo, where a man is walking on the water and next to the Muslim child sinks. Of my mind it describes some European´s arrogance and distorted view of their own humanity. Or actually a lack of humanity.

One could say the same thing about The rich arab states like Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, UAE and Qatar. Non of them have done anything serious for the Syrian refugee crisis. Right now the Saudis are creating another crisis in Yemen.

Its the poor Muslim countries that have actually taken in refugees like Lebanon and Jordan. Turkey being the only rich country that has also helped them.

Furthermore the Germans have done a lot by taking in refugees as well. I'm sure the Scandinavian countries will follow.

[Abz2000]

^^ wa'alaikumussalam,the Prophet pbuh said "Lakum al Jannah" when the Ansaar asked what they would get in return for believing in Allah and assisting him, despite the fact that their former alliances with other powerful tribes would be affected, he certainly didn't attempt to entice them with popadoms or shwarma. :)

it becomes a hot topic when they engineer a hot topic, just as Muslims, patriotism, taliban, afghanistan etc were a hot topic when bush knocked down the twin towers.anyways, johnny english's accusations of Muslims despite the direct fault of the uk government is reminding me of the speech of abdullah ibn ubayy (may Allah curse him) whose head Umar (may Allah be pleased with him) wanted to cut off even though ibn ubayy hadn't caused the Muslims harm in Makkah and engineered a crisis.

the british media is playing mind games with you in league with the government - i stopped watching the tv totally when i noticed how they theatrically had topics acted out if they couldn't find sometging to compare their news talking points with.remember when ibn ubayy was talking about feeding a dog until it's fat and feeds off of you?
and the honourable ones vs the weak and despised ones?

Allah clearly confirmed that honour, power and glory belong to Allah, His messenger and the believers and that the hypocrites were clueless.

7 – You wont believe that Ibn Ubayy even after what he did at Uhud was yet being allowed to accompany muslims on expeditions!!!
Once it happened on an expedition that two muslims fell into a fight - one of Ghifar tribe {Ally of Quraysh ie one tribe of Mecca from even before Islam} and the other of Juhayma tribe {Ally of Khazraj i.e. one tribe of medina to which Ibn Ubayy belonged from even before Islam} and both of them tried to involve their allies and swords got drawn between companions of the prophet pbuh.
However other sahabas of better understanding intervened and stopped the blood-bath from happening.

Ibn Ubayy was not responsible for this fight but he didn’t leave the opportunity to rally opinion against "Meccans" and started to plot to overthrow the “Meccan rule” being lead by Prophet.

We get one of his statements on this that reveals his plotting, Ibn Ubayy said to sahabas belonging to his tribe
“HAVE THEY {emigrant Quraysh/Meccans} GONE SO FAR AS THIS?
THEY SEEK TO TAKE PRECEDENCE OVER US {in our land over us}!! THEY CROWD US OUT IN OUR OWN COUNTRY AND NOTHING WILL FIT US AND THESE RAGS OF QURAYSH {just to remind prophet was a Quraysh}
BUT THE OLD SAYING GOES ‘FEED FAT YOUR DOG AND IT WILL FEED ON YOU’ {imagine whom he was calling a dog}!!!
BY GOD WHEN WE RETURN TO MEDINA THE HIGHER AND THE MIGHTIER OF US WILL DRIVE OUT THE LOWER AND WEAKER!”

Those who listened to him didn’t report this to prophet, but only two beings – one a young boy and other Allah himself!!!

First the young boy came and reported this to prophet and listening to this prophet got very angry, Umar (ra) said that he will go and behead him and the Prophet (pbuh) didn’t give him the permission to, he refused to let him do so and Umar followed the command!!!
When Ibn Ubayy got to know that prophet has come to know of what he said, he went to prophet and swore he never said anything even close to it….but there is still
Allah’s witness that was about to come on the matter and expose the traitor hypocrite, the enemy of Islam.

16.*"So go forth, both of you, to Pharaoh, and say: 'We have been sent by the Lord and Cherisher of the worlds;
17.*"'Send thou with us the Children of Israel.'"

18.*(Pharaoh) said: "Did we not cherish thee as a child among us, and didst thou not stay in our midst many years of thy life?19.*"And thou didst a deed of thine which (thou knowest) thou didst, and thou art of the ungrateful!"

20.*Moses said: "I did it then, when I was in error.
21.*"So I fled from you (all) when I feared you; but my Lord has (since) invested me with judgment (and wisdom) and appointed me as one of the messengers.

22.*"And this is the favour with which thou dost reproach me,- that thou hast enslaved the Children of Israel!"

23.*Pharaoh said: "And what is the 'Lord and Cherisher of the worlds'?"

Quran Chapter 26

[Ahmed2014]

Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's etc., . . . . . . Did you forget?

That is St. Paul in the bible speaking, this holds little merit to Jesus peace be upon him or to Muslims. We do not seperate our religion from our life .

[JohnnyEnglish]

The hypocrites were clueless.

Cut 'n paste, Cut 'n paste, Cut 'n paste, Cut 'n paste, Cut 'n paste,