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LearnIslam
09-07-2015, 07:39 AM
Hello,

I saw this thread on an unified Islamic state/nation : http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...n-islamic.html

I just felt, even before an unified Islamic nation, the existing Islamic nations should get along. I can't understand why all this discord exists in the M.East and Islamic world.

What the OP in the other thread outlined was important in one way - what is the Muslim world's contribution to science and technology in the modern world? How many scientists, engineers does it produce? Most of the wealth of the GCC countries comes from natural resources, and the many other Islamic countries are war-ridden.

So my point of discussion in this thread : Is there more than one idea of what an ideal Islamic nation should be like? Does that nation have a freedom of expression? Of information? Which Islamic nation would be the best example to emulate for the modern world - one that lives by Islamic habits and at the same time can keep up with times?
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Umar Ibn Farooq
09-07-2015, 02:57 PM
IMO, There is currently no Muslim nation in the world. Most of the so-called Muslim nations follow democracy and not the law of Allah. The law of Allah is the solution to world hunger, poverty, unfairness, crimes and so on so forth.
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BlueOwl358
09-07-2015, 03:50 PM
Gotta agree with the above posters. There is no real and present Islamic state, not in the slightest. Why? Because the notions of Nationalism and National Support for a nation based on non Islamic fundamentals contradicts the Islamic Law. There is no Islamic Law used, merely foreign codes that have developed over the past. An Islamic state stays entirely in the Islamic domain of Law, something which does not exist.

For such a state to exist, a specific state must remove any ideas of nationhood based on nationalism or culture or ethnicity, and work solely in the Islamic domain. Or we could just buy a Greek Island and establish our own country. :D
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JohnnyEnglish
09-07-2015, 08:11 PM
I have read a lot of posts on this forum and I have formed the view that many Muslims here believe that the cause of the failure of Muslims countries is that they are not Muslim enough!

First: I presume by successful country we mean one which provides it citizens with a prosperous, safe, comfortable, well managed, well organised, opportune life. From what I have read Islam is totally focussed on pleasing God so that God will provide a luxurious after-life. If your primary purpose in life is to prepare for death you are never going have a prosperous comfortable life. And making those Muslim administrators more Muslim might get some reward in heaven but will not make the country more prosperous, safer, more comfortable, better managed, better organised, more opportune.

It will be difficult, probably impossible, for you to accept but Islam as a system of Governance doesn't work in the 21st century. In fact it wouldn't work in any century for the past 1000 years.
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Aaqib
09-07-2015, 09:30 PM
^Pretty sure Allah has as well told us to enjoy our life on this dunya^
Just live your life, just keep with the praying 5 times a day, but still enjoy your life.
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Abz2000
09-07-2015, 10:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JohnnyEnglish
I have read a lot of posts on this forum and I have formed the view that many Muslims here believe that the cause of the failure of Muslims countries is that they are not Muslim enough!

First: I presume by successful country we mean one which provides it citizens with a prosperous, safe, comfortable, well managed, well organised, opportune life. From what I have read Islam is totally focussed on pleasing God so that God will provide a luxurious after-life. If your primary purpose in life is to prepare for death you are never going have a prosperous comfortable life. And making those Muslim administrators more Muslim might get some reward in heaven but will not make the country more prosperous, safer, more comfortable, better managed, better organised, more opportune.

It will be difficult, probably impossible, for you to accept but Islam as a system of Governance doesn't work in the 21st century. In fact it wouldn't work in any century for the past 1000 years.
there's no need to be rude and arrogant in your false assertion since you peddle a system that cannot even define itself, but is a declining and utterly discredited empire which sustains itself temporarily and hazardously off war and unbacked promissory debt notes that were issued on a promise of faith to return sterling silver pound weight for pound note by the monarch and is about to go bust due to the build up of inflation and debt while heading towards and promoting total servitude to a dictatorship and tyranny of international bankers.
claiming to be christian once, a constitutional monarchy another time, a secular democracy (if ever one existed) again another time, a racist nation state another time, rejects the u.n and lies outright to the people to the extent of fabricating evidence and making totally false accusations when it wants to involve in illegal wars, and is unable to enforce any type of local copyright or citizens/foreigners rights without subjection to an international body or the law of the jungle.
you should bow your head in humility when you speak of the system prescribed by your creator which your leaders know works, and whose potential on a fair playing field they are afraid of and have been exhausting themselves to cover behind a screen of falsehood and sabotage, know that the time of falsehood is nearing it's final throes, because God never fails in His promise.

it's not the loaded version of "religion" you've been made to falsely perceive all your life,
it is a global system that encompasses the moral, economic, intellectual (with honesty and honour), military, personal, spiritual, plus all other aspects of life on earth, from which the calculations for grades after leaving will be made.



We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost 40 years...
...It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years.
But, the world is more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government.
The supernational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries.

David Rockefeller
On February 17, 1950, James Paul Warburg confidently declared to the United States Senate:
“We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it.
The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by*conquest or consent.”
you may want to google the name to see who he is.

1The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth*it*to heart: and merciful men*are*taken away,
none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil*to come.
2He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds,*each one walking*in*his uprightness.

3But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the wh0re.
4Against whom do ye sport yourselves?
against whom make ye a wide mouth,*and*draw out the tongue?
*are*ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood,
5Enflaming yourselves with idols under every green tree, slaying the children in the valleys under the clifts of the rocks?

Isaiah 57
It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the way of life that is true, to manifest it over all ways of life,
although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.

Quran 9:33

It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the way of life that is true, to manifest it over all ways of life.
And sufficient is Allah as Witness.

29.*Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.
and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.
Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure.
On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat;
and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them.
Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward
Quran 48:28-29
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ardianto
09-07-2015, 10:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JohnnyEnglish
I have read a lot of posts on this forum and I have formed the view that many Muslims here believe that the cause of the failure of Muslims countries is that they are not Muslim enough!

First: I presume by successful country we mean one which provides it citizens with a prosperous, safe, comfortable, well managed, well organised, opportune life. From what I have read Islam is totally focussed on pleasing God so that God will provide a luxurious after-life. If your primary purpose in life is to prepare for death you are never going have a prosperous comfortable life. And making those Muslim administrators more Muslim might get some reward in heaven but will not make the country more prosperous, safer, more comfortable, better managed, better organised, more opportune.

It will be difficult, probably impossible, for you to accept but Islam as a system of Governance doesn't work in the 21st century. In fact it wouldn't work in any century for the past 1000 years.
In one thread I wrote that one cause why there are many problems in Muslim societies is lack of open-mindedness. Maybe there are Muslim who believe that the cause of the failure of Muslims countries is that they are not Muslim enough, and this is an example of lack of open-mindedness.

Indeed, there are Muslims who focus only to after-life and ignore building prosperity in the worldly life. But actually this is wrong. If Muslims are not prosperous, how can they help other Muslims who are still poor?. To be honest, I often wonder with attitude of many Muslims. When a poor Muslim say that he is hungry, instead of give him food and help him to able to work, the wealthy Muslim just tell him to be patient and see his hunger as a test from Allah, but does not help him although this wealthy Muslim can help and actually has duty to help.

There are many problems in the Muslim world that caused by Muslims themselves. But unfortunately, many Muslims are not willing to admit it.
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Umar Ibn Farooq
09-08-2015, 01:32 AM
Live life according to Allah and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (saw). Life isn't just about reading Salah 5 times a day. The Sahabah's always used to aim for the best in everything according to the teachings of Allah and the Prophet Muhammad (saw). Being a Muslim doesn't fully define us worshipping Allah five times a day. Being a Muslim means obeying Allah and following the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (saw). I'm sorry for being repetitive but when we have Muslims having this type of knowledge towards Allah, someone has to tell the truth.
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Pygoscelis
09-08-2015, 06:17 AM
Christians have gone though centuries of wars with other Christians, each claiming to have the "truth". Why should it surprise anybody that Muslims would do the same to other Muslims, also claiming to have the "truth"? This is simple tribalism (us vs them thinking) mixed with calls to ultimate authority (envisioned as Gods). It will has and will happen over and over. It is sadly part of human nature.

Only way to break through that would be to see each other, all of each other, as true brothers and sisters, with no shouts at and derision of kafir or infidel or alien or outsider. It sadly just isn't in our nature, at least not without some strong external threat. Maybe space aliens invading would band all of us humans together. I can't think of any way short of that.
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JohnnyEnglish
09-08-2015, 07:01 AM
From an outside objective perspective it seems to be that Islam is the reason that Muslim countries fail to 'succeed'not least because:

1. Some Muslims believe that Islam is a religion and others beleive it is a system of governance (a system of governance that defines that standards should remain fixed in the 7th century).
2. There will always be Muslims who believe that killing other Muslims will please God because they aren't 'proper' Muslims.
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Abz2000
09-08-2015, 10:41 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Christians have gone though centuries of wars with other Christians, each claiming to have the "truth".Why should it surprise anybody that Muslims would do the same to other Muslims, also claiming to have the "truth"? This is simple tribalism (us vs them thinking) mixed with calls to ultimate authority (envisioned as Gods). It will has and will happen over and over. It is sadly part of human nature.
it is forbidden to kill a Believer in Allah, the recompense for such a killer is hell.

those who professed to believe in the message given to Christ were the true believers until the final message was revealed to Muhammad pbuh, and each group has struggled with criminals or the misguided amongst its ranks claiming to be believers while actually causing dissention amongst the main body which is upon the truth as prescribed. to say that the truth causes rifts and divisions and therefore out to be discarded or suppressed is the worst type of foolishness any fool could fathom.
sounds like the deceptive, pseudo-scientific method used by aldous huxley's "western word controller" from the utopian brave new world in order to herd a bunch of brain-dead zombies.

scroll to 3 minutes 15 seconds to see how the irrational is falsely rationalized.




format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Only way to break through that would be to see each other, all of each other, as true brothers and sisters, with no shouts at and derision of kafir or infidel or alien or outsider. It sadly just isn't in our nature, at least not without some strong external threat. Maybe space aliens invading would band all of us humans together. I can't think of any way short of that.
ahhh, how wonderful it would be if your government saw everyone as true citizens, brothers and sisters, with no shouts at and derision of criminal or treasonous or illegal or foreigner. It just sadly isn't in our nature nor is it the nature prescribed by God.
except with "reagan's alien speech"
a modus operandi to which the u.s government has adhered for over a century, always having or creating one strawman opponent or another - like orwell's goldstein, seems like they decided it was the only way of preventing the peoples energy and scrutiny from being focused on the government while it continued it's crimes such as iran contra drugs and weapons deals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag44dRO8LEA

the only way mankind can unite harmoniously and peacefully is when we submit to the authority of Almighty God.
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Abz2000
09-08-2015, 11:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by JohnnyEnglish
From an outside objective perspective it seems to be that Islam is the reason that Muslim countries fail to 'succeed'not least because:

1. Some Muslims believe that Islam is a religion and others beleive it is a system of governance (a system of governance that defines that standards should remain fixed in the 7th century).
2. There will always be Muslims who believe that killing other Muslims will please God because they aren't 'proper' Muslims.
1. depends on what one means when using the term "religion". the second part about the 7th century is totally untrue, the tyrants prove this by their fear and revulsion to all the fatwas (legislative rulings derived from current circumstance based on and in the spirit of the Law and seeking the will of God).
2. that is a malicious falsehood. we only fight to establish the laws and will of God, and we do not fight against people who are law abiding citizens of this universe. nor do we ever condone making laws that are contrary to the laws of the universe.
a Muslim is defined by Islam, not just by a name or label otherwise we could all call ourselves the queen of england.
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M.I.A.
09-08-2015, 11:43 AM
Hard question.

Though about it for a while.

A lot of things like tolerance and fair representation for all.

The government, the opposition, the people.

The difficulty in maintaining a vaneer of civility..and its importance.

But all those things are overshadowed by the bottom line.

For a unified state and good relations to exist. A call to success is required.

When one party seeks to protect its own interests then those obvious divisions become important, when they could easily have been overlooked.

I guess that's where my answer leaves me. At a crossroads between a purely material and physical answer...

And something else entirely.


For a real unified state. A real understanding of the crossroad is needed.


And even leaders are lead.



https://38.media.tumblr.com/143b9ecf...d4lbo1_250.gif
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Abz2000
09-08-2015, 01:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
Hard question.

Though about it for a while.

A lot of things like tolerance and fair representation for all.
all law abiding citizens who submit to God deserve the best treatment.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.

The government, the opposition, the people.
the government and authority is God's right, any government which seeks to impose a way of life in contrast against the Quran and Sunnah is criminal and merits the wrath of God,
opposition to God is a crime
a person who opposes God is a criminal.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
The difficulty in maintaining a vaneer of civility..and its importance.
how do you define civility?

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
But all those things are overshadowed by the bottom line.
and what is the bottom line?

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
For a unified state and good relations to exist. A call to success is required.
i hear a call to success at least 5 times a day. success comes from humbly submitting to God and accepting His guidance as the ultimate wisdom.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
When one party seeks to protect its own interests then those obvious divisions become important, when they could easily have been overlooked.
which is why we are able to unite upon the guidance of God and discard selfish rivalries.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
I guess that's where my answer leaves me. At a crossroads between a purely material and physical answer...


And something else entirely.
is the above statement a riddle?

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
For a real unified state. A real understanding of the crossroad is needed.
i'll break the cross for you then you won't have any regrets or fear of enmity.
may Allah guide us along the STRAIGHT PATH, the path of those whome He has favoured and bestowed His blessings upon, and not the path of those who earned His wrath, nor of those who stray.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
And even leaders are lead.
they ought to be led by a desire to succeed and make the people succeed, and that comes about by establishing the laws of Allah.
i don't think they ought to be "lead" though, because Allah tells them that even if they were iron or stones or anything even tougher in their imagination, they will still be ressurected.

https://38.media.tumblr.com/143b9ecf...d4lbo1_250.gif[/QUOTE]
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Abz2000
09-08-2015, 01:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
Gods laws and man's laws?

I still can't get past cutting the hands of thieves.

Still learning I suppose.
well, it depends on if you've thieved and been thieved from and therefore recognize the destructive psychology required and the detrimental effects of such a crime as theft.

as someone who spent his youth bunking off of school and madrassah while stealing books and pens and stuff from smiths which stacked the shelves and had to be explained as "from the jumbo sale" or borrowed from the local library" to mom, who spent his college days living large off cloned credit and debit cards, who rinsed out the latest mobile phones from the orange shop on oxford street where he worked by getting his friends to come in as customers and buy them with dodgy cards,
and who's later had items of (relatively) high value (including sentimental) stolen from him, including achieving the experience of watching thieving employees almost run down a thriving legitimate business into which a lot of hard work had gone, having gone to the lengths of installing expensive cctv equipment at the shop - i have had the opportunity to see it from a wider angle and can assure you that repentance heals, but continued fear of theft is detrimental to the success of a healthy society.
it is worse for a man steal than to beg to sympathic people. the first is haram and creates mistrust and enmity, the latter, though not ideal, creates sympathy, community and pity.

format_quote Originally Posted by M.I.A.
But your answer is the epitome of personal success.. Nobodys path is one of unification.

The straight path, we are what we are and yet.. Your still going to tell me the truth of all that i have done?

Sorry this ones a little less coherent than my usual rants lol.

Imma go do a mbti test rather than an imdb test.


my still going to tell you the truth? what's my still?
i've told you some of the truth about myself - oh i'm dropping dimes today!
you're better off doing a murtad test and we're all better off repenting and submitting to the authority of God.
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M.I.A.
09-08-2015, 04:21 PM
It's a long day I guess lol.


But given time to change, most people do I would assume.

...at least your not armless.

Although maybe the circles you move in have changed.
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Pygoscelis
09-08-2015, 04:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
it is forbidden to kill a Believer in Allah, the recompense for such a killer is hell.
But Muslims have and do kill other Muslims. My guess is they get by your statement above by claiming for themselves that the people they are killing are not true Muslims, and my guess is that you disclaim the people doing the killing as not true Muslims. The Christians did/do that too. So do many other groups, religious and otherwise, who claim to be "true" [insert philosophy or religion or other label here]s.

to say that the truth causes rifts and divisions and therefore out to be discarded or suppressed is the worst type of foolishness any fool could fathom.
If there was a simple unified and universally known Truth, then it would indeed be foolish. But by "truth" (note the quotation marks) I meant what people understand to be true. The person who strongly disagrees with you on what truth is, is often just as certain as you are that they are correct. This can lead to conflict, especially if you attach this "truth" to something ultimate and authoritative, like a God.

If there is a real God, one has to wonder why that God (or Gods) didn't make it universally known to all what is true. That there are competing religions and competing understandings within religions, and that there is atheism, shows that if there is a God, he God didn't want such perfect understanding by all. I can't fathom why that would be. Is there a standard Islamic answer for it? Reminds me of the Tower of Babel story in the bible where God is said to have created all the different languages because he wanted to confuse man and stop man from cooperating with each other and building a ladder to the heavens.

ahhh, how wonderful it would be if your government saw everyone as true citizens, brothers and sisters, with no shouts at and derision of criminal or treasonous or illegal or foreigner.
Not sure what you mean by my government. Is there something particularly bad about the Canadian government? But yes, wouldn't that be great if we could all learn to empathize with one another and see each other as equals and stop all the bigotries and other tribal tensions? Perhaps with more evolved ethics we can learn to get passed this unfortunate bit of human nature.

the only way mankind can unite harmoniously and peacefully is when we submit to the authority of Almighty God.
Or when we learn to stop pushing our religious and political agendas on others, and truly live and let live.
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ardianto
09-08-2015, 04:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JohnnyEnglish
From an outside objective perspective it seems to be that Islam is the reason that Muslim countries fail to 'succeed'not least because:
Actually the cause why mostly of Muslim majority countries are still failed is because their people mindset that very affected by culture, not by Islam. They just use Islam as excuse. In example, there are Muslim who are lazy to work, and it makes them poor. But when other people ask why don't they work better to increase their income, they say "Oh, sustenance is arranged by Allah. If Allah decide I should get sustenance, then I would get sustenance. If Allah decide my time to get sustenance hasn't come, then I must wait".

My friend Johnny (I am a middle age man too), it's better if you do not make conclusion about Muslims too fast before you know more about Muslims.

:)
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Abz2000
09-08-2015, 05:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
But Muslims have and do kill other Muslims. My guess is they get by your statement above by claiming for themselves that the people they are killing are not true Muslims, and my guess is that you disclaim the people doing the killing as not true Muslims. The Christians did/do that too. So do many other groups, religious and otherwise, who claim to be "true" [insert philosophy or religion or other label here]s.
come on pygo, i expected you to know better,

wouldn't you say i was being stupid if i said that Americans do kill other Americans or that kafirs do kill other kafirs? it would be nonsensical wouldn't it?
i've seen them electrocuting, gassing, lethaly injecting others.
there's a difference between murder and enforcement of the best way of life.

and it is a hands down fact that God who created us is in a better position to judge, legislate and tell us what's right,
a crookedand corrupt oil company tycoon is in no position to lay claim to such authority and the fact that some people believed it to be so that it is ok for a selfish and imperfect human being to be the ultimate authority for such sensitive judgements is a sign of prevalent madness. and it would be even more mad if they delegated such authority to google which they created with their own hands. (akin to the idols which have no ability to guide or the microchipped "super-human" created with susceptibility to hacking who they manipulate into taking a certain direction and then follow the self manipulated ruling despite knowing it's false,, or like a stringed puppet who you ask, which way? and then get it to point in the wrong direction just so you can convince everyone to follow it).

it comes down to "which judgement is the best to apply universally and without making it a hotchpotch of confusion"
and when we think about it, when we deeply consider the facts surrounding us and self-evident to everyone in the universe, we come to the conclusion that the One who makes the planets orbit and the sun to appear and the rain to fall and the thunder to strike, who created the laws for humans to develo, reproduce, sustain, and even the laws for bacteria to attack and decompose, to whom we get resurrected and judged in complete truth, is the best to submit to.

format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If there was a simple unified and universally known Truth, then it would indeed be foolish. But by "truth" (note the quotation marks) I meant what people understand to be true. The person who strongly disagrees with you on what truth is, is often just as certain as you are that they are correct. This can lead to conflict, especially if you attach this "truth" to something ultimate and authoritative, like a God.

If there is a real God, one has to wonder why that God (or Gods) didn't make it universally known to all what is true. That there are competing religions and competing understandings within religions, and that there is atheism, shows that if there is a God, he God didn't want such perfect understanding by all. I can't fathom why that would be. Is there a standard Islamic answer for it? Reminds me of the Tower of Babel story in the bible where God is said to have created all the different languages because he wanted to confuse man and stop man from cooperating with each other and building a ladder to the heavens.



Not sure what you mean by my government. Is there something particularly bad about the Canadian government? But yes, wouldn't that be great if we could all learn to empathize with one another and see each other as equals and stop all the bigotries and other tribal tensions? Perhaps with more evolved ethics we can learn to get passed this unfortunate bit of human nature.
it has been made so from the beginning that we will know no absolute truth and find none in the case of interaction amongst humans other than the fact that God is One, and that He knows better than us, and that we would do good to find and learn His guidance as much as we can and follow that guidance as much as we can.
this has been the case since the time diabolis refused to accept the wisdom and has also been demonstrated in the disobedience to Adam.
we (mankind) are nearing the end of our term on planet earth and we still cannot explain whose fault Adam's disobedience was without some confusion, some blame God, some blame Iblis, some say iblis was only doing God's bidding, others lay the blame squarely on Adam, others say he was meant to do it and so on, and i have never seen anyone with the ability to explain it without hitting a flaw in their reasoning, and no one has been able to explain it without getting stuck at a question that comes like a hardball.
we can theorise till the last day but we'll only ever be able to agree upon the point that it would have been wiser to have obeyed God and left the calculations to Him.
the answer cannot be mathematical as it is way more complicated, and humans trying to imagine they can drive the thing without God's assistance is a madness which they'd deeply regret.
better to say, ok Boss, you know best - when God makes a command that way we get off scott free.


the fact can also be seen in the evolvement of the laws in the scriptures and in the conception of Mary (as) which left hwr people astounded.

Or when we learn to stop pushing our religious and political agendas on others, and truly live and let live.[/QUOTE]
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M.I.A.
09-08-2015, 07:26 PM
random vid post...yay

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Pygoscelis
09-09-2015, 12:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by abz2000
There's a difference between murder and enforcement of the best way of life.
I suppose that is a matter of perspective and opinion. Murder after all is culpable homocide. Killing isn't always culpable (blameworthy) and when it is and when it isn't is up to us as society (or you would say God) to decide.

It comes down to "which judgement is the best to apply universally and without making it a hotchpotch of confusion"
and when we think about it, when we deeply consider the facts surrounding us and self-evident to everyone in the universe, we come to the conclusion that the one who makes the planets orbit and the sun to appear and the rain to fall and the thunder to strike, who created the laws for humans to develo, reproduce, sustain, and even the laws for bacteria to attack and decompose, to whom we get resurrected and judged in complete truth, is the best to submit to.
I don't see a need to "submit" to anybody. Not blindly anyway. I follow most laws because they make sense to me based on my sense of justice and empathy and social contract, and where they seem immoral to me, I will and do break them without flinching. As for God, the creator and sustainer of the universe etc, being the greatest to submit to, I suppose I would have to believe in such a being to agree with that. :) Since I don't, when you tell me God demands something, I see that as you saying a human demands something and puts that demand in the form of God demanding it. It is quite different when you see it that way.

We (mankind) are nearing the end of our term on planet earth and we still cannot explain whose fault adam's disobedience was without some confusion, some blame god, some blame iblis, some say iblis was only doing god's bidding, others lay the blame squarely on adam, others say he was meant to do it and so on, and i have never seen anyone with the ability to explain it without hitting a flaw in their reasoning, and no one has been able to explain it without getting stuck at a question that comes like a hardball.
I can explain it just fine with no contradiction.... It is fiction. lol Sorry. Yes, that was a bit of a cheeky answer. I do appreciate your explanation. God, if there is one, may be well beyond human understanding and may work in ways we could never comprehend. I was just wondering if Islam had a standard doctrinal answer to the question. I don't think Christianity or Judaism do either.
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Abz2000
09-09-2015, 04:45 AM
dude you're chatting on and on as you have in the past despite previous answers you've received and been unable to argue against. Not everybody has a sense of justice, living in a society or living in a ahip requies a just chain of command with the wisest, strongest (in terms of ability to enforce) most knowledgeable and just being at the top, the human race is an interconnected society. what you've earlier admitted to as being anarchy doesn't work.

i have proved that God exists, the kuffar have spent over a decade blaming God for the crimes they themselves have comitted, and have been using Muslims as hostages and sacrificial lambs/scapegoats, the kuffar are stuck in a false matrix, the kuffar cannot defend their position, you'll either repent or you'll deeply regret your rejection of God's authority soon anyway - but hey we wouldn't be having this conversation in such a format if you didn't believe that God exists, the intellect tells me that.
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Pygoscelis
09-09-2015, 02:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
you'll either repent or you'll deeply regret your rejection of God's authority soon anyway - but hey we wouldn't be having this conversation in such a format if you didn't believe that God exists, the intellect tells me that.
So you think me a liar. How quaint. You think I know your "Truth" to be real and that I will and should be punished for not obeying what you tell yourself I know I must. At least you keep this punishment to the afterlife, and by Allah, and don't seek to carry it out yourself. Do you think this only of myself, or do you think this of all atheists? Do you think this of all non-muslims? If you do, I'm afraid that may lead you to a sort of zealotry.

This sort of zealotry, be it religious or nationalist or otherwise, can lead to the problem stated in my initial post above. People figure that their "truth" is so obvious that everybody must know it and that anybody who says they believe otherwise is lying, and they see themselves as the instruments of their God's will. If we decide that people are lying and disobedient and evil, we enable ourselves to withdraw empathy from them. "Evil" is what we call people we want to feel good about hating. This allows the phenomenon of righteous "justice", which is really righteous hatred, which absent the foregoing would be a contradiction in terms.

Some of these people take it further, and see themselves as instruments of their God's will, and seek to carry out the "punishment" of the infidel, kafir, or whatever they call those people who don't believe what they do. Some of them take it pretty far. And some of them don't restrict it to non-believers, and get equally upset at those who claim to be in the same belief system but are not "true" believers. They "pretend" to have the wrong interpretation or the wrong prophet or the wrong this or that, and "willfully" stand against the "one true" God. In some cases this can even be over some doctrinal issues outsiders would find shockingly trivial (Christians have killed other Christians and branded them infidels for some very trivial reasons). You said that Muslims don't kill other Muslims, which is of course true, but "Muslims" have and do kill other "Muslims", just as "Christians" have and do kill other "Christians".

Atheists often fall into the same problem. Some of you may have experienced this from them if you have gone to anti-religious boards where people are hostile to religion (and often especially to Muslims). When you tell them you wear hajib for modesty, they may tell you that you are lying and that it is actually always suppression of women. When you tell them you believe in Allah, they may even tell you that you really don't, and just go along with it because your culture tells you to. You were born amongst Muslims, so you are one, etc. Decades ago I myself fell into this trap. I thought that nobody could ACTUALLY believe in Gods or spirits or other supernatural beings, because they were just so obviously made up. I judged believers as people going along with it just to get along with their culture, like children who pretend to believe in Santa Claus so the presents don't stop coming. That was my genuine take on it back then. Pretty insulting to be told you are lying or deluded, isn't it? It is no different when believers do the same to atheists and other believers with different beliefs, only these believers take it that one step further and attach it to an ultimate authority figure (God), and the above issues flow from there.

Thankfully for us all, and getting back to the OP, most Muslims (and most Christians and most patriots) today don't operate in such a way. Most are able to see even those who don't believe as they do as genuine and able to extend empathy to them. Most are able to control the "us vs them" that is natural to humanity (and other species on earth). When I wrote above that it is not in human nature to cooperate as a species, I did not mean that we are all totally incapable of it. I think most of us can get there, with a bit of an internal struggle (a "jihad" if you will) but unfortunately a few latch onto tribal conflict, and it only takes a few that are violent to spoil the lot.
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M.I.A.
09-10-2015, 07:50 PM
The Quran states that Muslims, Jews and Christians are people of the book.

The devision comes from the behaviour of those people representing at the time.

Claiming something does not give credibility to the claim... To be fair I'm not sure what does.

But we are all cogs in a machine.

The machine exists, even athiests admit..

With rudimentary understanding that gravity effects us..

And yet explanation has taken thousands of years.. Not through only one person either.

It's a universal truth and yet only scratches the very surface of understanding.. Or the depth and intricacies of the machine.

How would anyone have a correct concept of God?

Never mind that it was a time of writing on bone and leather.


You could as what any of this has to do with God?

And it would be way over my head to explain, if it were as simple as a man in a red costume and a fluffy hat..

Things would be way easier.

But at least athiests would have to stop arguing.

https://youtu.be/VHfroJBMlVM
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LearnIslam
09-13-2015, 12:11 AM
Abz2000
don't say that you were not warned, and it would have been better had you repented and submitted to God in Islam

Don't speak in vain. The Arabs have hijacked the word of the Creator, and now you are threatening people online. This quote is what everyone needs to see - its the language of the bad leadership in the Muslim world, and why it is filled with murderers and people who oppress. Do you think you are working for the Creator in doing such threats? You, nor the Arabs, nor the Jews are special. The Romans hijacked the word of the Creator, as have the Arabs.

Presently, let me ask you what is the place of discussion, discourse and opinion in the perfect Islamic nation?

The problem Abz2000 is that everyone who follows Islam, or at least the leadership, sound very much like you. They are certain they have the truth, they ask others to repent, and threaten others with grave consequences. What truth have you seen?

You were born and you were told, you believed, you had faith, which is good, but then you believe you are better than others. Guess what? They have faith too, just not yours. Are you going to kill them now?
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LearnIslam
09-13-2015, 12:19 AM
And I can get started on 'kafirs' but I'll let that be. When you look at someone and see them not as a fellow human with emotions and experiences like your own, but something inferior, you turn to a conviction that you can do anything above them.

Abz2000, my advice is as an ally. But if the Islamic world continues with this train of thought, you will be feared and despised everywhere in the world. The Creator gave his message to the Arabs, and they turned it into this threatening scheme of submit or die until they developed factions amongst themselves and are killing each other. Is a kafir's hunger less or more than a Muslim's? Is a kafir's happiness less or more than a Muslim's? You clearly don't know the message of the Creator, just like the oppressive leadership in the M.East.

If those in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf nations truly knew the compassion of Allah (the Creator), His mercy, and lived a life in humility to realize it, they would have immediately offered refuge to the Syrians. But no, they won't because they are a different type of Muslim!

Abz2000, when you step outside next morning, feel in your heart that you are seeing humans, not Muslims and kafirs.
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M.I.A.
09-13-2015, 02:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by LearnIslam
And I can get started on 'kafirs' but I'll let that be. When you look at someone and see them not as a fellow human with emotions and experiences like your own, but something inferior, you turn to a conviction that you can do anything above them.

Abz2000, my advice is as an ally. But if the Islamic world continues with this train of thought, you will be feared and despised everywhere in the world. The Creator gave his message to the Arabs, and they turned it into this threatening scheme of submit or die until they developed factions amongst themselves and are killing each other. Is a kafir's hunger less or more than a Muslim's? Is a kafir's happiness less or more than a Muslim's? You clearly don't know the message of the Creator, just like the oppressive leadership in the M.East.

If those in Saudi Arabia and other Gulf nations truly knew the compassion of Allah (the Creator), His mercy, and lived a life in humility to realize it, they would have immediately offered refuge to the Syrians. But no, they won't because they are a different type of Muslim!

Abz2000, when you step outside next morning, feel in your heart that you are seeing humans, not Muslims and kafirs.

it takes all sorts of people to make the world turn. seriously, allah swt raises and lowers as he wills.


...probably.


i remember a hadith that goes something along the lines of whoever opens the doors to begging allah swt will open the doors to poverty for them.


...that is the mindset.


although i have heard anecdotal stories of angels appearing as beggers to men who had been granted things in the world.


i dont know what the correct answer is or who keeps score.
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ardianto
09-13-2015, 04:34 AM
Okay, lets we back on topic.

format_quote Originally Posted by LearnIslam
So my point of discussion in this thread : Is there more than one idea of what an ideal Islamic nation should be like? Does that nation have a freedom of expression? Of information? Which Islamic nation would be the best example to emulate for the modern world - one that lives by Islamic habits and at the same time can keep up with times?
Muslims as people consist of people from various race, ethnic, culture, and also various way of thinking. Of course it can cause different view about ideal Islamic nation. Hizbut Tahrir believe that Muslims should live in single state with single government that called khilafah. Ikhwanul Muslimin propose idea of brotherhood which Muslims live in various countries, but they cooperate each other.

And about freedom of expression, freedom of information, it's depend on the regime that rule this Islamic state. If the background of the regime is moderate Muslims, of course people have enough freedom to express their thought and getting information. If the background of regime is ultra-conservative, of course there are many restriction in freedom of expression.
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MuslimInshallah
09-13-2015, 12:04 PM
Assalaamu alaikum,

Personally, I believe that the problem in the so-called Islamic world is a lack of Islam. I don't mean this in the superficial sense that people need to have longer beards, or spend more time in empty prayer. I mean it in the inner sense. The sense that is talked about in the Qur'an. A Muslim, in the original sense of the word, is someone who struggles to do what is Pleasing to God. In order to do this, you need to reach out and try to understand God's Will. You have to have a heart and mind that want to understand. And such a heart empathizes, feels compassion, urges the person to goodness. And such a mind seeks ways to do what his or her heart urges.

But it seems to me that the word "Muslim" has, too often, become just another label, another way for people to divide themselves and give themselves an excuse to believe themselves superior. And God's Guidance is used as a tool for the unscrupulous to justify their wickedness.

When I look at too many people who define themselves as Muslim, I am saddened. God Calls towards kindness and justice and self-restraint. But all too often, this is not what I see. I see heartlessness and injustice and using scripture to justify excesses. And this is not at all Islam (the state of being in harmony with God's Will).

And this is why I feel that the problems that one sees in the "Islamic" world are a result of a lack of Islam.


May God, the Bringer of Judgement, Help us to remember that we are all accountable, before Him, for what we do.
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M.I.A.
09-13-2015, 12:43 PM
I have to say I do not agree.

Sometimes the hardest thing to say, never mind even do..

I do not want this.. For anyone.

At odds between submission and struggle.

Is that Islam? Enjoining good and forbidding evil I have no idea.

I hate talking.

Each to his own path I guess.


Ya-seen.

Anyway in the end, Allah swt knows best.
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JohnnyEnglish
09-13-2015, 04:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by MuslimInshallah
Assalaamualaikum,
Personally, I believe that the problem in the so-called Islamic world is a lack ofIslam. A Muslim, in the original sense of the word, is someone who struggles todo what is Pleasing to God.
The problem is(it seems to me) that every Mulsim that is cutting off some innocent personshead or blowing up an ancient monument belie3ves that they are ‘pleasing God’and they can quote verses of the Koran that support them. It seems to me that VERY few Muslims objectivelystudy Islam, they simply accept what they are taught and believe what they wantto believe. I am sure you are a goodperson and I am sure you believe, want to believe, that Islam is a religion ofpeace (towards all mankind) but is that because that is what you havediscovered through objective questioning study or because that’s what you havebeen taught and that’s what you want to believe.
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M.I.A.
09-13-2015, 07:46 PM
It's a bit narrow minded to think that the country you belong to has no skeletons in the closet.

Past and present.

I'm sure most if not all people on the forum can feel the same way.

The difference is that we live in a period of instability for the middle East.

The west may have moved on from hangings and imperialism but the term "developing countries" still exists.

I guess its nieve to think that progress is ever handing out flowers and putting up peace signs.
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Muhammad
09-13-2015, 08:52 PM
Greetings,

It's all very well making assumptions about Islam and Muslims but once we begin looking at facts, not assumptions, it will put things in perspective.

Below is a response to different posts.

format_quote Originally Posted by LearnIslam
I just felt, even before an unified Islamic nation, the existing Islamic nations should get along. I can't understand why all this discord exists in the M.East and Islamic world.
Islamic nations should certainly get along. But discord and corruption exists everywhere - the Middle East is neither the only place in the world with problems, nor are its problems exclusively from within those countries.

format_quote Originally Posted by LearnIslam
What the OP in the other thread outlined was important in one way - what is the Muslim world's contribution to science and technology in the modern world? How many scientists, engineers does it produce?
There are different ways to measure success; it isn't a crude head count of scientists and engineers. But Islam does not discourage anyone from science and technology. Centuries before the European Renaissance there were Muslim explorers, scientists, philosophers and physicians. During most of its history, Islamic civilization has been witness to a veritable celebration of knowledge. Every traditional Islamic city possessed public and private libraries and some cities like Cordoba and Baghdad boasted of libraries with over 400,000 books. The scholar has always been held in the highest esteem in Islamic society. The Islamic university system predates renowned schools such as The University of Oxford and Cambridge by more than three centuries.

Have a look at the following link, a website which contains more than 1000 peer-reviewed articles regarding the Golden Age of Muslim civilisation and contributions of Muslims to every field of intellectual discovery:
http://www.muslimheritage.com/

If you are looking for modern contributions, let's take a look at some of the scientific breakthroughs made by Muslims in 2014:
Genetics:

Scientists co-led by the Egyptian geneticist Dr. Sherif El-Khamisy at the Center of Genomics (CG), Zewail City of Science and Technology (ZC) in Egypt, identified the first defect in a genetic pathway for individuals who suffer impaired neural function.

A team of researchers led by the Iranian computational biologist, medical geneticist and evolutionary geneticist Pardis Sabeti trained doctors from the Muslim countries Nigeria, Senegal and Sierra Leone to use a sequencing and diagnostic technology to improve tracking Ebola virus's mutations.

Dr. Teepu Siddique, a Pakistani neurologist succeeded with his team in discovering one of the causes of Amyotrophic lateral sclerosis (ALS).

The Moroccan geneticist Dr. Ismahane Elouafi was named among the 20 Most Influential Women in Science in the Islamic World under the Shapers category, and the CEO-Middle East Magazine has listed her among the World’s 100 Most Powerful Arabophone Women in the Science category.

Medicine:

A Kashmiri molecular neurotherapist and stem cells professor has successfully discovered a brain cancer treatment. He achieved this via prompting stem cells to kill brain cancer.

Two Egyptian scientists created space-based crystals of two proteins of the Hepatitis C virus. The crystals which were developed in space can help in innovating new drugs to fight the virus.

Scientists in the Muslim country of Bashkortostan are developing a technology to make monoclonal antibodies specific to fight the Ebola virus.

Dr. Sheik Umar Khan, the doctor who led Sierra Leone's fight against the worst Ebola outbreak and the one who treated more than 100 patients and dozens of health workers, died from the virus.

The Muslim country of Bashkortostan succeeded in obtaining a license from the Swiss pharmaceutical company, Novartis, to start producing a cure for one of the types of Leukemia.

Mathematics:

An Iranian mathematician became the first ever female winner of the celebrated Fields Medal. In a landmark hailed as "long overdue", Prof Maryam Mirzakhani was recognized for her work on complex geometry.

Kazakhstani Muslim scientist proves the existence of a solution to Navier Stokes Equation which is deemed one of the hardest in the world.

Engineering:

The Moroccan engineering scientist Rachid Yazami became a co-winner of 2014 Draper Prize by the US's National Academy of Engineering for pioneering and leading the groundwork for today’s lithium ion battery.

Three Malaysian academics were chosen among the world’s leading scientific minds, according to a report by business information firm Thomson Reuters.

Education:

According to the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO), four Muslim countries were ranked in the top 20 destinations allover the world for international students.

Space:

The European space probes Rosetta and Philae didn't only have Egyptian names to commemorate the Egyptian Civilization’s contributions to humanity, but four Egyptian scientists have also worked in this historic space mission.

Egyptian students were ranked internationally among the top 10 teams of space engineering youth groups that participated at the University Rover Challenge (URC), in USA.

A young female Kazakh inventor Nazifa Baktybayeva created a real in-orbit satellite that allows Kazakhstani students to conduct research based on materials obtained from space. This invention wasn't Nazifa's first one as in 2012 she created a model of a Venusian spacecraft that was fabricated using parts of her own old computer, headphones, a DVD disk, an umbrella and even a hanger and she calculated the craft's trajectory.


format_quote Originally Posted by JohnnyEnglish
From what I have read Islam is totally focussed on pleasing God so that God will provide a luxurious after-life. If your primary purpose in life is to prepare for death you are never going have a prosperous comfortable life. And making those Muslim administrators more Muslim might get some reward in heaven but will not make the country more prosperous, safer, more comfortable, better managed, better organised, more opportune.
Worship in Islam is a very broad concept; it isn't confined to the walls of a Mosque. Day-to-day tasks like earning a living, spending on one's family and gaining an education can all be actions pleasing to God when they are done with the right intention. Islam speaks at length on social welfare, spending on the poor, orphans, relatives, helping those in debt and so on.

When people become conscious of God and obedient to Him, this has a huge impact in the manner in which people interact with the law. A society that has members that are God-conscious will naturally be more law-abiding and more distant from crime. This is because a godless society is more prone to crime if its people believe they can escape being caught and charged for crime.

So we can see that adhering to Islam will certainly make a country 'prosperous, safer, more comfortable, better managed, better organised, more opportune.'

format_quote Originally Posted by JohnnyEnglish
It will be difficult, probably impossible, for you to accept but Islam as a system of Governance doesn't work in the 21st century. In fact it wouldn't work in any century for the past 1000 years.
It seems you are not familiar with the hundreds of years during which societies flourished under Islamic Governance. Many non-Muslim historians and chroniclers attest to the way in which Muslims treated non-believing subjects of the Islamic empires.

The fact that Islam promotes practices that were practiced centuries ago does not necessarily mean that such practices are wrong or are no longer viable. In fact, in all societies one will find medieval practices, whether it be related to trade, like the use of currency, or penal code, like the concept of imprisonment, and so on.

In reality, such methods of argumentation are indicative of a fallacious method of debating; namely the use of the Argumentum ad Novitatem (appeal to novelty) argument.This is essentially when someone prematurely claims that an idea or proposal is correct or superior, exclusively because it is new and modern, and hence anything that is old is considered to be no longer viable. Investigation may prove these claims to be true for particular cases, but it is a fallacy to prematurely conclude this only from the general claim that all novelty is good. Although there may be correlations between novelty and positive traits in certain cases, like technology for example, we cannot make that an absolute reality for all matters in life, especially when dealing with values and traditions.

As Muslims we believe that certain laws and practices are more appropriate, not because they are older, but because they originate from the Divine and hence are the best for humanity whether we realise it or not.

format_quote Originally Posted by JohnnyEnglish
Some Muslims believe that Islam is a religion and others beleive it is a system of governance
Islam is a comprehensive way of life, covering all aspects of life.

format_quote Originally Posted by JohnnyEnglish
The problem is(it seems to me) that every Mulsim that is cutting off some innocent personshead or blowing up an ancient monument belie3ves that they are ‘pleasing God’and they can quote verses of the Koran that support them.
It's easy to blame religious ideology for the crimes we see in the world, but this actually ignores the real causative factors behind such problems. Increasing research is emerging to show that religious ideology is not an underlying driver of violence, rather a host of other factors play a far more significant role such as political grievances, state violence and a climate of alienation and suspicion. A shift occurring in the mindset of individuals is not due to any change in religious ideology but because of a transformed political environment, according to the admission of individuals themselves.

Part of the problem is also the unfortunate reality that when a Muslim commits a crime, their faith is highlighted and they are classed as terrorists. But when others commit similar or worse crimes, other explanations are sought and the news is somehow not as sensational. In North Carolina, US, on the 10th of February 2015, three young Muslim students were shot by their white, atheist neighbour, Craig Stephen Hicks, in the head. This event struggled to even make it to the headlines. Dr Sarandev Bhambra, 25, was attacked with a machete by Zack Davies at a Tesco in Mold, Flintshire, in January. By his own admission Davies was a man that harboured a real hatred for non-whites. He had a history of violence and always carried a knife. After the guilty verdict was delivered in June, Dr Bhambra's brother, Dr Tarlochan Singh Bhambra, said he was "in no doubt" the case would have been reported as an "act of terror" had the "racial disposition of this case been reversed".

With round the clock propaganda against Muslims, and disproportionate, negative coverage aired by the likes of Fox News, whose “experts” lie to whip up anti-Muslim hysteria, or even British journalists such as Cathy Newmam, who also lied to perhaps move up the lucrative Islamophobia-industry, the media machine is complicit in the deaths of these Muslims, by creating an atmosphere where Muslims and Islam are perpetually architected as the enemy. Media outlets like Fox News, the Spectator, Daily Fail and other right-wing/neocon papers are complicit in the deaths of Nahid Almanea, who was beaten and stabbed to death in Britain; they are complicit in the death of Mohammed Saleem, an old man returning from prayers who was also stabbed to death; they are complicit in the tearing off of hijabs and niqabs from heads of Muslim women in the streets of Europe; they are complicit in fostering the hatred which is requisite in creating the primordial atmosphere of Nazi Germany. As long as this complicity continues, there will be more fatal attacks against Muslims.

It seems to me that VERY few Muslims objectivelystudy Islam, they simply accept what they are taught and believe what they wantto believe.
And an even fewer number, it seems, of non-Muslims who study Islam; they simply accept what they are taught and want to believe.

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JohnnyEnglish
09-13-2015, 09:49 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muhammad
It seems you are not familiar with the hundreds of years during which societies flourished under Islamic Governance.
I am aware that at some time in the past (100yrs of years past) that Islamic communities did contribute towards a progressive society. I don't know why that was and why it regressed so that now we have a situation whereby EVERY Muslim country (without oil) is a failure?
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ardianto
09-13-2015, 10:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JohnnyEnglish
I am aware that at some time in the past (100yrs of years past) that Islamic communities did contribute towards a progressive society. I don't know why that was and why it regressed so that now we have a situation whereby EVERY Muslim country (without oil) is a failure?
Not every Muslim majority country is failed.

I live in Indonesia, a Muslim majority country. Indeed, in some matters like economy and technology Indonesia is still behind Europe, but actually it has good progress in last two decades. And it's happen after Indonesian people began to more religious. Mostly of people behind this progress are religious Muslims. If you visit Indonesia then you can easily find Muslim women with headscarves who hold important position in labs, research centers, financial institutions, etc.

Johnny, I think you overly generalize Muslims. You make image of global Muslims only based on few Muslims you have seen in your place.

:)
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JohnnyEnglish
09-14-2015, 07:26 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Not every Muslim majority country is failed. Johnny, I think you overly generalize Muslims. You make image of global Muslims only based on few Muslims you have seen in your place.
It was a while back but I used to work in Indonesia and many other countries, in fact I was in Indonesia earlier this year. There are degrees / levels of failure and it may be that Indonesia is not the 'most' failed state but by any measure it is a failure. In my first hand experience, one feature that exists in all Muslim countries (including Indonesia) is corruption. Now you will say that is cultural and has nothing to do with Islam and someone else will say that Islam decrees the way an Islamic country is governed and that includes it's cultural values.

That brings me back to the reason I came onto this site - I want people any people including Muslims who come to live in my country to leave their cultural values, including religious cultural values behind them and adopt our cultural values because our cultural values bring success and yours brings failure. That's not simply my opinion it's a fact.
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sister herb
09-14-2015, 09:16 AM
So you basicly want that people - including Muslims - come to your country and reject their religion (as Islam is not only the religion, its a way of life and its a value of life). Then they will become as typical non-religious but very secular like the most of Europeans are at these days.

But why all this? Believing the God doesn´t make people losers. And in many times when immigrants come to countries like yours (or mine) don´t see "your cultural values" so positive that they really would like to follow them. Maybe they see and understand the real failures and emptiness what Europeans feel, maybe they can understand much better the unhappiness what "Europen values" brings to the people´s life.

Claiming that your cultural values bring success and all others brings failure is a typical way of the arrogant colonial culture to see the other world.
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sister herb
09-14-2015, 09:27 AM
JohnnyEnglish, your opinions remind me this image:

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ardianto
09-14-2015, 03:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JohnnyEnglish
It was a while back but I used to work in Indonesia and many other countries, in fact I was in Indonesia earlier this year. There are degrees / levels of failure and it may be that Indonesia is not the 'most' failed state but by any measure it is a failure. In my first hand experience, one feature that exists in all Muslim countries (including Indonesia) is corruption. Now you will say that is cultural and has nothing to do with Islam and someone else will say that Islam decrees the way an Islamic country is governed and that includes it's cultural values.

That brings me back to the reason I came onto this site - I want people any people including Muslims who come to live in my country to leave their cultural values, including religious cultural values behind them and adopt our cultural values because our cultural values bring success and yours brings failure. That's not simply my opinion it's a fact.
Few of corruptors in Indonesia are Christians. But Indonesian people do not blame Christianity for this because they know, like in other religions, including Islam, corruption is prohibited in Christianity too. If a Christian commits corruption, it's because he leave Christianity value. If a Muslim commits corruption, it's because he leave Islamic values. If every religious person holds religious values, then corruption would not exist.

Does culture encourage corruption?. My culture encourages people to be honest, and if someone honest, then he would not commit corruption. Cultures in other Muslim majority countries also encourage people to be honest too. Corruption is not caused by religion or culture, but caused by greed that can be happen to anyone from any religion, any culture. Yes, corruption habit is still strong in Indonesia. But in the last two decades govt began intense fight corruption. Many corruptors have been arrested. Religious leaders also heavily remind people to not commit corruption.

Okay, Johnny, I will show you two photos.





The photos above were not taken in India or China, but taken di Indonesia. Those Indians and Chinese still hold their cultural values and religious values, although they live in Indonesia. But Indonesia people, including Muslims do not mind with it. It's because we have principle "Bhinneka Tunggal Ika" which means "Unity in Diversity". Unity does not mean everyone must be same, but unity means respect each other difference.

Does Western values better than Islamic values and my culture values?. In some matters, yes. That's why my Islamic teacher ever told me to learn discipline and good working ethic from Western people. Many Muslims are 'open' for good values from anywhere, as long as not contradictive with Islamic values.

Like I have said in my previous post, Muslims in Indonesia make good progress in science and technology, although currently still behind non-Muslims in the West. And let me honest, one factor that motivate them was feeling of left-behind by non-Muslims. But should Muslims from Asia turn into Westerner to make progress?. No!. We take a lesson from Japanese who are very advanced but still live in their own values.

"Iptek and Imtaq". This is the principle of Muslims in my place to build progress. Build progress in "Ilmu Pengetahuan (science) and TEKnologi (technology", but still strongly hold "IMan (faith) and TAQwa (God-fearing)".

Can Muslims build good progress in science, technology, education, economy, but still hold Islamic values?.In Shaa Allah (God willing) we can. And this is what we want to reach although we know it's not easy.

:)
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JohnnyEnglish
09-14-2015, 07:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
So you basicly want that people - including Muslims - come to your country and reject their religion
No, I don't ask that anyone should reject their religious beliefs unless those religious beliefs contravene the laws of my country or promote cultural values that are at odds with the cultural values of my country e.g. failure to integrate.

format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Claiming that your cultural values bring success and all others brings failure is a typical way of the arrogant colonial culture to see the other world.
It may be arrogant but it's true.
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JohnnyEnglish
09-14-2015, 07:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Does culture encourage corruption?.
Yes it does. I have lived in many different countries including China a non Muslim country that has a problem with corruption. And, in my experience the reason it exists is entirely cultural in so far as it is the cultural norm amongst the people of that country to take and receive bribes.

I believe that it stems from a society which has adopted cultural norms which puts the interest of individuals or their family / group / tribe first before and above that of their country. And, that's why anyone who immigrates to my country should (IMO) accept and adopt our cultural values and not import their (failed) cultural values.
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JohnnyEnglish
09-14-2015, 07:58 PM
This thread started with the question - What is the solution to all this conflict? What is the way to the modern world?
I'm presuming that question was . .What is the solution to all this conflict in Muslim countries and How can Muslim countries achieve a safe, secure, prosperous, opportune environment for its citizens.
I haven't seen any post here proposing any answers other than the ludicrous suggestion that they would achieve this is they became more Muslim! Why does nobody here have any ideas on what is the solution? Why is there no critical analysis of and acceptance of the problem?
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MuslimInshallah
09-15-2015, 12:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JohnnyEnglish

The problem is(it seems to me) that every Mulsim that is cutting off some innocent personshead or blowing up an ancient monument belie3ves that they are ‘pleasing God’and they can quote verses of the Koran that support them. It seems to me that VERY few Muslims objectivelystudy Islam, they simply accept what they are taught and believe what they wantto believe. I am sure you are a goodperson and I am sure you believe, want to believe, that Islam is a religion ofpeace (towards all mankind) but is that because that is what you havediscovered through objective questioning study or because that’s what you havebeen taught and that’s what you want to believe.
Greetings Johnny,

I quite agree with you that people bent on wickedness will seek to justify their wrongdoing in any way that they can. Whether this be by quoting snippets of the Qur'an, or by quoting the ideals of democracy or marxism or what have you. (smile) This is a universal human weakness.

As for my studies of Islam… (smile) I have mostly learnt this from the primary and secondary sources. That is, from the Qur'an and ahadith (recorded sayings and doings of the Prophet Mohammed (May God Bless him) and his companions (May God be Pleased with them)), and from respected Muslims scholars. (smile) And I mean real scholars. Not people who have a certificate or low-level degree who tweet out fatwas, but serious scholars who devote their lives and write whole and referenced books to explain their positions.

(smile) As to wanting to believe… Oh Johnny, sometimes I feel that it would be so much easier for me if I could reject what God has Taught me through the Qur'an (and yes, I read Arabic, incidentally)! (smile) Because in the short run, it is easier. I wouldn't have to suffer discrimination, I could sleep in bed rather than get up to pray, I could avoid fasting, eat whatever I wanted, find a nice man who respects me to marry…. (smile) But, just as eating junk food, and quantities of it, may seem like a better option than eating moderate amounts rich in vegetables and fruits… it isn't the best for you in the long run. (smile) Struggles build character. Fasting is good for your health. So is praying. (smile) In the longer run, following God's Instruction Manual for the Good Life does pay off, both in this life and the Next.

(smile) Islam is the state we aim for when we struggle to surrender to God's Will. A struggle to restrain ourselves from wrongdoing, for God is Good. Surrendering to God's Will brings inner peace and outer behaviours that are beneficial to the self, to others, and to all Creation. (smile) So of course, if people truly worked on restraining themselves from wrongdoing, their societies would be stronger and healthier.


May God, the Bestower, Help us to restrain ourselves and do what is Pleasing to Him.
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Muhammad
09-15-2015, 04:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by JohnnyEnglish
Why does nobody here have any ideas on what is the solution? Why is there no critical analysis of and acceptance of the problem?
You should start with yourself before assuming that the problem is with everyone else. Are you not aware of the corruption in your own country? The taint of corruption pervades the entire British establishment. The police, the media, Parliament, even the Royal Family have all been engulfed in scandals of one type or another in recent months and years. Moreover, crime and moral decline remain a huge problem in places like the UK and USA:

Suicide is the leading cause of death of British men aged 20-34 years in the UK. The suicide rate in the EU is 17.5 people in 100,000 and 15.1 in 100,000 worldwide. [The World Health Report 2001 Mental Health: New Understanding, New Hope Geneva: World Health Organisation, (2001)]

There were 13 divorces an hour in England and Wales in 2012. One in seven divorces were granted as a result of adultery. 48% of couples divorcing had at least one child aged under 16 living with the family. It is expected that 42% of marriages will end in divorce. http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/rel/vsob1/...-13-facts.html

An estimated 1.4 million women and 700,000 men have suffered domestic abuse in the last year, according to figures from the Office for National Statistics (ONS).

It is estimated that 80,000 people are involved in prostitution in the UK. A recent European parliamentary report estimated there were about 880,000 people living in slave-like conditions in Europe, of whom 270,000 were victims of sexual exploitation.

In Britain, the official Crime Survey for England and Wales 2014 estimated that there are 85,000 rapes every year, or one every six minutes. Equivalent US figures suggest that 1 per cent of all women are sexually assaulted each year, one every 25 seconds.

Drug and alcohol addiction: The latest figures show that the UK had the seventh highest drug-related mortality rate in Europe (EMCDDA, 2015).

Child molestation - Over 2,800 children were identified as needing protection from sexual abuse last year. Police across the country are investigating more than 1,400 men over allegations of child abuse in the past, of whom 76 are politicians.

73% of the world's online pornography is produced in the United States

In the USA, where nearly half of pregnancies are unintended and four in 10 of these are terminated by abortion, there are over 3,000 abortions per day.

And, that's why anyone who immigrates to my country should (IMO) accept and adopt our cultural values and not import their (failed) cultural values.
Some of the cultural values that people bring to 'your' country are more 'British' than what the general population is practising today.
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M.I.A.
09-15-2015, 04:52 PM
ok before failed countries becomes a thing, the banking system has a lot to do with stability in the uk.

and its a far from perfect practice.. bailouts(bank to business, government to bank and probably a lot more in between) prevent failure and maybe thats ok in theory to offer a buoyancy aid... but in practice its probably full of illegitimate practices.

..the fact that the system is far reaching into other countries cannot be overlooked.

secondly, most people dont contribute to a countries previous success, "we won the war" may be accurate as a national statement, but personally most people should be ashamed to make such claims..

culturally there is a historical class divide upper, middle and lower.."working" class, this cannot be overlooked and culturally.. each class would probably have some choice words for the other..

or worse still, could not imagine the lifestyles the others led as "normal" or "acceptable".


it should not be that way, but it is.. i dont know how you define integration but people do have the right to do as they please within limits in the UK.

if that changes then you have to ask why and for who.
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LearnIslam
11-22-2015, 06:10 PM
Muhammed
But discord and corruption exists everywhere - the Middle East is neither the only place in the world with problems, nor are its problems exclusively from within those countries.
It does. But the M.East is the probably the only place where it exists to the point where you've allowed foreign armies to take over and create a havoc. Palestine has been affected for over 20 years. Is there any leadership in the M.East to counter that and make the Palestinians feel safe? Most M. East Muslims expect US or some foreign agents to help them.
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LearnIslam
11-22-2015, 06:24 PM
The point of this thread is gone. I am hoping that the leadership in the Muslim world will see its shortcomings. But everyone is gone into defense mode here, by posting information of scientific achievements by Muslims.

I am not here to judge Islam, or Muslims. I am not here to point a finger and snicker that you've failed. I am here to show you what people think, the obvious blaring truth of why xenophobia exists towards Muslims. But none of you are ready to acknowledge the problem exists from your side.

Why would people like the azaan in their countries? What sense does it make for women to wear the hijab while they put make up on their faces and wear figure revealing burkas? Islam doesn't even ask a woman to cover her hair. Please realize what modesty is truly about - it's not about being the odd one out by covering your hair.

With due respect to you all,
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M.I.A.
11-22-2015, 09:39 PM
Agree, starting with the self is for most the only thing they can do.

...the man in the mirror

I'm kidding but only just.
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Eric H
11-22-2015, 11:22 PM
Greetings and peace be with you LearnIslam;

So my point of discussion in this thread : Is there more than one idea of what an ideal Islamic nation should be like?
We are all created by the same God, the same God hears all our prayers, despite all our differences. We have a duty to care for all of God's creation, that has to mean caring for each other, despite our differences.

Too much injustice has happened in this world, every generation carries forwards injustice from a past generation. If we can find it in our heart to be merciful and forgive, then we could put a stop to future injustice. Study the 99 names of Allah.

There cannot be a purely Islamic nation, you are going to have to share with people of many faiths and no faith. The solution means to treat everyone as a brother, despite all our diverse beliefs.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric
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