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BilalKid
10-15-2015, 07:48 AM
how to give dawah to them? they say God is not real because its like fairy tale or some myth.. ^o)
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greenhill
10-15-2015, 12:31 PM
A similar question was asked sometime back. Hence the lack of response.

It really depends on the intention of both parties.

You've got to remember that humans are given 'choice'. So we can chose to believe or not to believe.

If they chose not to believe, they will disbelieve despite your arguments.

:peace:
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M.I.A.
10-15-2015, 01:08 PM
Iv heard athiests utter the words.. I believe.

Some even describe religious folk they meet as
.. Good.

Ultimately Allah swt is the one who turns people towards or away from him.

https://www.comp.leeds.ac.uk/nora/html/49-14.html

May be totally the wrong concept but feel free to correct me.. If only for my own sake.
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sister herb
10-15-2015, 02:51 PM
I was an atheist before. Then I met some Muslims. They seemed to be kind and helpful people. I became interested about what makes them so nice and started to wonder is it because they are Muslims. So, I wanted to know more about their religion.

You are the best example about Islam to atheists. Be polite, kind and show its because of Islam what makes you be so wonderful person. InshAllah, they too become curious - like I became, over 20 years ago.

:statisfie
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shafat10
10-15-2015, 04:54 PM
As most atheists use science as their yardstick, we use Quran as our yardstick and prove them that God does exist.

An easy way is to tell them about the scientific facts that we found out recently, that was mentioned in the Quran 1400 years ago.
If you do a probability test, then the chances of these facts coming by chance in the Quran is impossible. Hence you must have to conclude, the Quran has a divine authority.

You might want to check out Dr. Zakir Naik in YouTube, he is an international scholar on Islam and Comparative Religion, and his debates on Science and Religion are just perfect! The most logical and scientific answers are given by him Alhamdulillah and this alone helped uncountable atheists all around the world who have accepted Islam.

Hope this helps.
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Pygoscelis
10-16-2015, 06:35 AM
Hi Bilalkid, I am an atheist. I read this board and post occasionally when I think an atheist viewpoint is needed. And it is needed here.

Originally Posted by Bilalkid
how to give dawah to them? they say God is not real because its like fairy tale or some myth..
Originally Posted by greenhill
You've got to remember that humans are given 'choice'. So we can chose to believe or not to believe.
This is simply false. We don't choose what we believe. If you don't believe something, no matter what I offer as a reward, you are not going to be able to genuinely make yourself believe it. If I offered you ten million dollars, you still could not make yourself believe what you don't, say that you have an invisible space alien sitting on your shoulder that wants you to eat lemons. You can't be SURE that there isn't such an alien on your shoulder, since it would be invisible, but you see no reason to believe this is true. You probably think I just made it up (I did). No matter how I bribe you or threaten you to demand you believe in this space alien, you can't just make yourself believe, right? You could lie about it, sure, and pretend it is there, but you couldn't truly make yourself a believer. This is no different for an atheist when it comes to Gods. We see no reason be believe these beliefs to be true. We see them as myths; Zeus, Thor, Jehovah, Allah, etc, as non-existing as faeries, demons, ghosts, etc. And we see your holy books (Quran, Bible, Vedas, Egyptian book of the dead, Tao Te Ching, etc) as fables, not much different than the native american folk tales of "how the eagle got its wings" etc.

Short of providing real tangible evidence, beyond just your holy book, etc, you simply are not going to convince an atheist. And that is ok. Despite what you may have heard, we are not miserable hopeless sad people with nothing to live for, just because we don't believe in God. We live lives full of wonder and happiness and the meaning that we find it and give to it, just like you do. Most of us are happy to live and let live and won't attack your beliefs, and we would like that you not try to push your beliefs on us or tell us we must behave in accordance with the rules you have chosen for yourself to live by.

There is no need to give Dawah to atheists. Those of them that are curious about Islam, will seek it out and learn about it, and some of them will be convinced by it and convert. That will not be because of you dong dawah. That will be because of their own thinking. Many more will never become Muslims. And that is ok. Some Muslims will lose their faith and become atheist too (or Christians or Jews or HIndus, etc), and that's ok too. Live and let live, yes? Each their own path.
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shafat10
10-16-2015, 09:21 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Hi Bilalkid, I am an atheist. I read this board and post occasionally when I think an atheist viewpoint is needed. And it is needed here.





This is simply false. We don't choose what we believe. If you don't believe something, no matter what I offer as a reward, you are not going to be able to genuinely make yourself believe it. If I offered you ten million dollars, you still could not make yourself believe what you don't, say that you have an invisible space alien sitting on your shoulder that wants you to eat lemons. You can't be SURE that there isn't such an alien on your shoulder, since it would be invisible, but you see no reason to believe this is true. You probably think I just made it up (I did). No matter how I bribe you or threaten you to demand you believe in this space alien, you can't just make yourself believe, right? You could lie about it, sure, and pretend it is there, but you couldn't truly make yourself a believer. This is no different for an atheist when it comes to Gods. We see no reason be believe these beliefs to be true. We see them as myths; Zeus, Thor, Jehovah, Allah, etc, as non-existing as faeries, demons, ghosts, etc. And we see your holy books (Quran, Bible, Vedas, Egyptian book of the dead, Tao Te Ching, etc) as fables, not much different than the native american folk tales of "how the eagle got its wings" etc.

Short of providing real tangible evidence, beyond just your holy book, etc, you simply are not going to convince an atheist. And that is ok. Despite what you may have heard, we are not miserable hopeless sad people with nothing to live for, just because we don't believe in God. We live lives full of wonder and happiness and the meaning that we find it and give to it, just like you do. Most of us are happy to live and let live and won't attack your beliefs, and we would like that you not try to push your beliefs on us or tell us we must behave in accordance with the rules you have chosen for yourself to live by.

There is no need to give Dawah to atheists. Those of them that are curious about Islam, will seek it out and learn about it, and some of them will be convinced by it and convert. That will not be because of you dong dawah. That will be because of their own thinking. Many more will never become Muslims. And that is ok. Some Muslims will lose their faith and become atheist too (or Christians or Jews or HIndus, etc), and that's ok too. Live and let live, yes? Each their own path.
As far as the alien is concerned or the flying spaghetti monster as you say, give me proof, and if you can give me proof that it exists, then why wouldn't I believe in the fact that an alien is sitting on my head?

In Islam, we give you the Quran as proof, we use science and logic.

We don't just say, there is God who will put you to hell (though I know many Muslims do that), but a learned Muslim who understands Dawah, wouldn't really tell you anything like that.

We rather bring the Quran to you and if you don't agree, then please prove it wrong, which many people tried but failed.

And we use science, your yardstick to prove our yardstick the Quran.

Any more clarifications, I would more than happy to help you sir.
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shafat10
10-16-2015, 09:25 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Hi Bilalkid, I am an atheist. I read this board and post occasionally when I think an atheist viewpoint is needed. And it is needed here.





This is simply false. We don't choose what we believe. If you don't believe something, no matter what I offer as a reward, you are not going to be able to genuinely make yourself believe it. If I offered you ten million dollars, you still could not make yourself believe what you don't, say that you have an invisible space alien sitting on your shoulder that wants you to eat lemons. You can't be SURE that there isn't such an alien on your shoulder, since it would be invisible, but you see no reason to believe this is true. You probably think I just made it up (I did). No matter how I bribe you or threaten you to demand you believe in this space alien, you can't just make yourself believe, right? You could lie about it, sure, and pretend it is there, but you couldn't truly make yourself a believer. This is no different for an atheist when it comes to Gods. We see no reason be believe these beliefs to be true. We see them as myths; Zeus, Thor, Jehovah, Allah, etc, as non-existing as faeries, demons, ghosts, etc. And we see your holy books (Quran, Bible, Vedas, Egyptian book of the dead, Tao Te Ching, etc) as fables, not much different than the native american folk tales of "how the eagle got its wings" etc.

Short of providing real tangible evidence, beyond just your holy book, etc, you simply are not going to convince an atheist. And that is ok. Despite what you may have heard, we are not miserable hopeless sad people with nothing to live for, just because we don't believe in God. We live lives full of wonder and happiness and the meaning that we find it and give to it, just like you do. Most of us are happy to live and let live and won't attack your beliefs, and we would like that you not try to push your beliefs on us or tell us we must behave in accordance with the rules you have chosen for yourself to live by.

There is no need to give Dawah to atheists. Those of them that are curious about Islam, will seek it out and learn about it, and some of them will be convinced by it and convert. That will not be because of you dong dawah. That will be because of their own thinking. Many more will never become Muslims. And that is ok. Some Muslims will lose their faith and become atheist too (or Christians or Jews or HIndus, etc), and that's ok too. Live and let live, yes? Each their own path.
There are many points you mentioned but I can't touch on every point, it will take hours together to discuss.

But yah, read the first comment of mine and explain the part of scientific facts in the Quran, I would like to know your opinion and should you need any further clarification, do ask.
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sister herb
10-16-2015, 09:52 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
We don't choose what we believe.
Now this sounds like someone else will make decision on our behalf, what we believe or not - but atheist can´t think there is "someone" who makes kind of decisions on our behalf. Right?

;D

Basicly I disagree - yes, we decide what we believe and what we don´t. We can also change our believes - many times if we get some strong stimulus or incentive outside what puts us to think again or to break down our prejudices we might change our believes. This happens in everything what we believe or think, not only our relation to religion.

But this is just my way to see this matter.
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Scimitar
10-16-2015, 02:26 PM
The athiest believe in Laa Ilaha - so that's one third of the shahadah right there... its up to you to logically prove the rest.

Scimi
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Arjuno
10-16-2015, 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
fables, not much different than the native american folk tales of "how the eagle got its wings" etc.
So which fable do you follow? That one which says the wings slowly slowly appeared on the eagle for no reason? The same that says the fishes someday decided to go out from the water and walk?
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Abz2000
10-16-2015, 03:06 PM
You don't need to give them dawah in the context of whether or not Allah exists just as you don't need to convince them that they were born one day and will die one day, they already know and are living in denial.
They know they are unable to provide rationale for their criminal actions. You just need to tell them to submit to Allah before it's too late and if they have any genuine questions which they're willing to ask respectfully, answer them or tell them to go Google it.

16. One day We shall seize you with a mighty onslaught: We will indeed (then) exact Retribution!

17. We did, before them, try the people of Pharaoh: there came to them an apostle most honourable,

18. Saying: "Restore to me the Servants of Allah. I am to you an apostle worthy of all trust;

19. "And be not arrogant as against Allah. for I come to you with authority manifest.

20. "For me, I have sought safety with my Lord and your Lord, against your injuring me.

21. "If ye believe me not, at least keep yourselves away from me."

22. (But they were aggressive: ) then he cried to his Lord: "These are indeed a people given to sin."


23. (The reply came: ) "March forth with My Servants by night: for ye are sure to be pursued.

24. "And leave the sea as a furrow (divided): for they are a host (destined) to be drowned."

Quran Chapter 44









https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T97ELHP-SrE
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Pygoscelis
10-16-2015, 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
Now this sounds like someone else will make decision on our behalf, what we believe or not - but atheist can´t think there is "someone" who makes kind of decisions on our behalf. Right?
If I offered you a million dollars, could you truly and fully believe you were a dolphin dreaming of living life as a human? Sheer force of will is not enough, right? So belief is not something you decide. You are either convinced or you are not.

Originally Posted by Arjuno
So which fable do you follow? That one which says the wings slowly slowly appeared on the eagle for no reason? The same that says the fishes someday decided to go out from the water and walk?
I don't believe any such story with anywhere near the same level of certainty that most religious people believe in their stories. As near as I can tell from the evidence, evolution explains a lot of life we now have on earth. New evidence could disprove that, and it doesn't explain everything, such as how it all began in the first place. I am quite content that there are some things, such as how everything came to be that are not fully explained or understood by me. That actually is what enables me to to look for answers. I may never have complete answers, but at least I'm not stopping because I think I already know the answers.
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Pygoscelis
10-16-2015, 05:52 PM
Originally Posted by shafat10
As far as the alien is concerned or the flying spaghetti monster as you say, give me proof, and if you can give me proof that it exists, then why wouldn't I believe in the fact that an alien is sitting on my head?

In Islam, we give you the Quran as proof, we use science and logic.
I'd rather not be baited into a discussion of how special or not the Quran is, because doing that is likely to make some here think I am here to insult their beliefs, which is not my intention. Suffice it so say that non-Muslims do not believe as Muslims do and do not see the Quran as proof of anything, no more than the Bible or other religious texts.

We rather bring the Quran to you and if you don't agree, then please prove it wrong, which many people tried but failed.
I have no need to prove it wrong. I am not seeking to convince you or anyone else that it is wrong. If it convinces you, good for you. Live a good life believing that, and practice Islam. Just don't presume we all view it the same way, and don't expect me to live in compliance with your religious beliefs.

If you seek to convince me, or other atheists that the Quran is right and is holy and proof of God etc, then the onus would clearly be on you, not me, to prove that, and I really don't think you will get very far. And I think that is really quite ok, and not at all a failing on your or anybody else's part. After all, if an all powerful being, such as God, wanted to be known and understood by all, he/she/it would be known and understood by all.
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Good brother
10-16-2015, 08:10 PM
some related articles;
http://bemuslims.weebly.com/corrupted-beliefs.html
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BilalKid
10-16-2015, 08:16 PM
Originally Posted by Good brother
this helped thank you :statisfie https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkKHYk3l0Kc
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Muhammad
10-16-2015, 09:16 PM
Greetings Pygoscelis,

If atheists are so good at 'thinking', it's about time they used this facility. Otherwise we wouldn't be reading grossly inaccurate analogies like the one you posted above. There is no resemblance between a whimsical belief in a spaghetti monster, or a flying elephant, or a space alien telling someone to eat lemons, and the logical and coherent belief in one God - a belief supported by Prophets and Messengers throughout the ages, scriptures, signs and miracles, logical arguments, innate human nature, and more.

It's strange that you take pride in looking for answers and yet, for the most important question, you have stopped. That, too, based only on a belief. You can claim you see no reason to believe our beliefs are true, but there is no evidence to prove they are not true. As such, you have made a choice when you choose a way of life stating adamantly there is no God. Throughout time, people have made the choice not to believe even when, deep down, they knew what the right path was. Far from compelling people, Islam liberates them to make the right choice. And that is why we will continue giving da'wah, as it is very evidently needed.

The next time an atheist viewpoint is 'needed', we'll let you know.
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M.I.A.
10-16-2015, 10:22 PM
Not sure about that really, if you read it as a whole it declares itself as a warning.

You ask for proof of god and it answers such a question in its own way.

Depends on your own understanding of it and the intent on which you approached it.

I would feel it is beyond our scope to explain fully any concept of god or to understand it.

Not sure you would want to either.

To pick science as an example, given enough time you could explain what is today to the people of yesterday..

Or you could teach the basics for making good scientists.

It's a poor analogy but I hope you understand.

If you say look science gives proofs and religion does not then, you miss the point... The level of order within the system is frankly terrifying and astonishing.

..and yet so easily dismissed as chemistry or physics or biology..

But then what would the flying spaghetti monster be without philosophy..

Flour, veg and meat flung through the air.
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keiv
10-16-2015, 11:22 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I don't believe any such story with anywhere near the same level of certainty that most religious people believe in their stories. As near as I can tell from the evidence, evolution explains a lot of life we now have on earth. New evidence could disprove that, and it doesn't explain everything, such as how it all began in the first place. I am quite content that there are some things, such as how everything came to be that are not fully explained or understood by me. That actually is what enables me to to look for answers. I may never have complete answers, but at least I'm not stopping because I think I already know the answers.
Amazing how atheists will admit to not knowing the truth and even go as far as to say what they think they know now could be disproved anytime in the future, yet atheists are quick to ridicule and mock people of religion and state what they believe in are myths or fairy tales as if their 'planet of the apes' fairy tale is supposed to be any better.
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aamuslim
10-16-2015, 11:34 PM
Originally Posted by BilalKid
how to give dawah to them? they say God is not real because its like fairy tale or some myth.. ^o)
If you were to ask a baby in the womb of their mother whether there is life after birth, or whether they believe in Mom - what answer would you expect to get?

When this baby grows up to 100 years (now 2x as smart and intelligent as they were at age 50, and 2x better with their hearing, sight and speech capabilities), if you were to tell this big baby that a (self built) cargo ship carrying electronic goods (which no factory built, but came about on its own) sailed (on its own) from a port of China and made its way to the port of Singapore and then to a city in Europe or North America without any crew members (maintaining it) nor a ship captain (navigating its course), what kind of a stare would you expect to get?

{Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day are signs for those of understanding. Who remember Allah while standing or sitting or [lying] on their sides and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, [saying], "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly; exalted are You [above such a thing]; then protect us from the punishment of the Fire.} (Quran - 3:190-191)

Allah has sent Prophets and Messengers to their people with guidance and miracles, then among them were people who believed and people who disbelieved. The products that we manufacture (take your iPhone) come with their product manuals, Allah has not only sent Prophets and Messengers but also Books with the guidance, so its upon them to ponder over the guidance and let them make their mind. {The truth is from your Lord, so whoever wills - let him believe; and whoever wills - let him disbelieve.} (Quran - 18:29)
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sister herb
10-17-2015, 06:59 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
If I offered you a million dollars, could you truly and fully believe you were a dolphin dreaming of living life as a human? Sheer force of will is not enough, right? So belief is not something you decide. You are either convinced or you are not.
If you get enough scientific evidences which make you convinced that the dolphins dreaming of living life as a human, wouldn´t you change your belief, with or without a million dollars? Well, most of those people whose say they believe the facts only will do so.
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czgibson
10-17-2015, 02:37 PM
Greetings,

One thing I have never understood: If "Allah guides whom he wills" (Qur'an 28:56), then what is the point of dawah? Why bother inviting someone to Islam if Allah has already decided in advance who will follow and who won't? Is it to keep Muslims focussed on the reasons for their own belief? Or maybe just because it pleases Allah?

As for giving dawah to atheists, remember that first you have to convince them that god exists. If you can do that successfully, then you can proceed and try and convince them of the further claim that Islam is true. Don't start with the Qur'an or any other arguments that are specific to Islam, because an atheist will see through them and immediately notice that they are all entirely dependent on prior belief in god.

Originally Posted by Muhammad
The next time an atheist viewpoint is 'needed', we'll let you know.
I would have thought an atheist viewpoint could be valuable in a discussion like this one, which actually has atheists as its focus. Alternatively, you could decide you only want to hear from theists. It's an option, I suppose, but surely a limiting one.

Peace
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shafat10
10-17-2015, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

One thing I have never understood: If "Allah guides whom he wills" (Qur'an 28:56), then what is the point of dawah? Why bother inviting someone to Islam if Allah has already decided in advance who will follow and who won't? Is it to keep Muslims focussed on the reasons for their own belief? Or maybe just because it pleases Allah?

As for giving dawah to atheists, remember that first you have to convince them that god exists. If you can do that successfully, then you can proceed and try and convince them of the further claim that Islam is true. Don't start with the Qur'an or any other arguments that are specific to Islam, because an atheist will see through them and immediately notice that they are all entirely dependent on prior belief in god.



I would have thought an atheist viewpoint could be valuable in a discussion like this one, which actually has atheists as its focus. Alternatively, you could decide you only want to hear from theists. It's an option, I suppose, but surely a limiting one.

Peace
Long thing short, you have many misconceptions regarding some major points of religion.

First off, predestination as you call it.

See, this explanation can take hours long, and I don't intend doing that.

I will say in short, you have a free will, but God has knowledge of the future, He knows in advance what is going to happen, but he doesn't interfere in anyone's free will. God says He can, but He won't because this life is a test. If He interferes, then where is the test?
Hence the thing is, God knows in advance what is going to happen, because he has knowledge of the future, but that in no way means he is altering your free will. You have your free will which you are executing, but God just "knows".
It's not that God is writing and you are doing, it's what you are doing that God has already written in Advance, because he has knowledge of the future.
Hope that was clear to you.

Second point you said, not to mention Islam when talking about religion, rather just God. Well, little do you know, there are not many religions in this world, there's only one religion Islam. Islam didn't come in to existence 1400 years ago, Islam existed since time immemorial, since men set foot on the Earth. God sent messengers and prophets to all the nations and tribes and at every age. But those messages were meant to be followed for a specific group of people and for a specific time period. If you read the New Testament, Gospel of Matthew, chapter number 15, verse number 24, Jesus Christ PBUH himself says, I was sent not but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. So you come to know that Prophet Jesus was sent only to the tribe of Bani Israel.
Since God didn't find it fit to preserve the scriptures, he kept on sending new messages via messengers and prophets. But as Quran is the last and final revelation, it is not meant only for the Muslims or for the Arabs, it's meant for the whole of humanity, and the message is to be followed till eternity.

Hence as you said, talk about God, don't bring Islam, well, if you notice it once again, you might want to rephrase your question because you're contradicting yourself, Islam = talking about God, the last and final revelation of God.

So ultimately, ya, we are talking about God with you.

Hope this helps.
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greenhill
10-17-2015, 05:55 PM
@czgibson Allah guiding whom He Wills also encompasses another consideration: Apart from what is obviously implied here like meaning only that Allah arbitrarily (or randomly) selects, He Will guide those who seek. He will also guide those who need guide. The Pharaoh had Moses as a guide but didn't accept because he couldn't. The pharaoh was already declared 'god', how could he lower himself to Moses? He chose to defy. The guide was sent. So, it is up to that person to see it, realise it and accept it.. and believe ..and build understanding in stages.

Allah will not abandon His creation. Only His creation ponders not and asks not of Him.

:peace:
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M.I.A.
10-17-2015, 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

One thing I have never understood: If "Allah guides whom he wills" (Qur'an 28:56), then what is the point of dawah? Why bother inviting someone to Islam if Allah has already decided in advance who will follow and who won't? Is it to keep Muslims focussed on the reasons for their own belief? Or maybe just because it pleases Allah?

As for giving dawah to atheists, remember that first you have to convince them that god exists. If you can do that successfully, then you can proceed and try and convince them of the further claim that Islam is true. Don't start with the Qur'an or any other arguments that are specific to Islam, because an atheist will see through them and immediately notice that they are all entirely dependent on prior belief in god.



I would have thought an atheist viewpoint could be valuable in a discussion like this one, which actually has atheists as its focus. Alternatively, you could decide you only want to hear from theists. It's an option, I suppose, but surely a limiting one.

Peace
Another car story.

So I'd been looking into buying a new car because the one I have "is not good enough"

But I went to get a pack of cigs from the petrol station and I met two guys there they said salam.. They looked religious :/

When I finally got to my house they were stood opposite
..

So I got out and let on to them again.

Turns out they were from a "walking jamat" and had traveled all around my city walking and giving dawah.

Nice.

Anyway Allah swt guides whom he wills but I'd probably be better off walking..

No but seriously all kidding aside, its good practice.

And when somebody actually has questions then your own understanding increases.

I have no idea who is guided and who is not or the context of the answer.

I used to play football a lot and I know its a team game.

No use in strikers without a mid and defence..

And nobody ever wants to play goalie.

There are those that are guided and those that follow guidance.

...the funny thing is that iv never seen anybody turn up to footy and not improve.

Alhamdulillah
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Muhammad
10-18-2015, 02:04 PM
Greetings czgibson,

Originally Posted by czgibson
I would have thought an atheist viewpoint could be valuable in a discussion like this one, which actually has atheists as its focus. Alternatively, you could decide you only want to hear from theists. It's an option, I suppose, but surely a limiting one.
This thread was made by a Muslim seeking advice from fellow Muslims about da'wah. He already indicated he was aware of the atheist viewpoint in the first post. Moreover, the replies from atheists so far have been nothing short of unhelpful. Beyond the usual ignorant remarks about religion, we are being told we have no evidence for what we believe in and even worse - how to give da'wah, or not to bother with da'wah. It would be far more sensible if non-Muslims did not advise Muslims about their religious duties.

You mentioned the Qur'an. This is among the greatest evidences for the truth of Islam. Numerous people have converted to Islam simply by reading a translation of the Qur'an, including atheists such as Dr Jeffrey Lang. We have people on this very forum who have found Islam through the Qur'an. Even the staunch opponents of the Prophet :saws: could not deny the sublimity of this scripture and could not tear themselves away from hearing it. Clearly, it is not 'entirely dependent on prior belief in God'. Only recently you remarked how the oldest Qur'an fragments found in Birmingham University were 'an amazing discovery of global significance.' I wonder if you 'saw through' that as well...
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Pygoscelis
10-19-2015, 06:33 AM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
It's strange that you take pride in looking for answers and yet, for the most important question, you have stopped.
First, I probably don't agree with you on what the most important questions are. Second, no, I haven't stopped. My mind is always open and can be changed.

You can claim you see no reason to believe our beliefs are true, but there is no evidence to prove they are not true.
Correct. There is no evidence to prove they are not true. I have no way to falsify them, so that will always be so. However, that, by itself, doesn't mean I should adopt said beliefs. That is the point of those analogies you noted. They are other things that we can not disprove. The point of them being outlandish is to show that just because something can not be disproved, doesn't mean we should believe in them. Can we agree on that much?

As such, you have made a choice when you choose a way of life stating adamantly there is no God.
No, I have not made any such choice, nor do I say adamantly there is no God. I am not 100% certain that there is no God. I can't be 100% certain of that. I never claimed to be. I just don't have any belief that there is. Nor is it a binary thing. Perhaps there is some spiritual creator of the universe being or beings. There could be one; there could be many; he could want this; or she could want that. I simply do not know. And as I look at the world around me I see no reason to conclude that any such being is there, or if is there, that it cares about me, wants anything of me, etc.

You may see me as a lost soul, blind to what you see as the obvious truth of Islam. And that is fine. Perhaps I am. But I ask you please, to not put words in my mouth.

Throughout time, people have made the choice not to believe even when, deep down, they knew what the right path was.
If, as you say, deep down they knew what the right path was, then they believed all along, didn't they? I honestly and truly do not "know" that yours is the "right" path. If I did, I would walk your path. This isn't a matter of rebelling against my creator. This is me not seeing a creator to rebel against. Can you understand that?

The next time an atheist viewpoint is 'needed', we'll let you know.
You clearly do need it, as you don't seem to understand what an atheist IS if you keep insisting that we have chosen not to believe or to declare adamantly there is and can be no God. That isn't what we are at all. I hope this post has helped you understand. That may actually help you with your dawah too. As the other nice atheist fellow asked, the dawah thing is more than just for show, right? You actually intend to reach some people, save some souls and all that? Knowing your audience should help you in getting across your message, should it not?
Reply

Pygoscelis
10-19-2015, 06:36 AM
Originally Posted by sister herb
If you get enough scientific evidences which make you convinced that the dolphins dreaming of living life as a human, wouldn´t you change your belief, with or without a million dollars? Well, most of those people whose say they believe the facts only will do so.
Oh yes, I absolutely agree. So you can see then, that it isn't a choice we atheists make not to believe what you do in Islam. We are simply not convinced by the evidence, in the same way that you yourself are not convinced in what a Christian or a Jew or Hindu would say is their evidence for their beliefs.
Reply

shafat10
10-19-2015, 09:09 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Oh yes, I absolutely agree. So you can see then, that it isn't a choice we atheists make not to believe what you do in Islam. We are simply not convinced by the evidence, in the same way that you yourself are not convinced in what a Christian or a Jew or Hindu would say is their evidence for their beliefs.
As far as the other religions are concerned, the scholars of their own religion agree that there are errors and mistakes in their scriptures.

So when the students and followers themselves doubt on that, how can we accept it?
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sister herb
10-19-2015, 09:16 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Oh yes, I absolutely agree. So you can see then, that it isn't a choice we atheists make not to believe what you do in Islam. We are simply not convinced by the evidence, in the same way that you yourself are not convinced in what a Christian or a Jew or Hindu would say is their evidence for their beliefs.
Some of us atheist have found the Quran as the evidence of the truth of the God and by our own free will we found out its the only truth. Some atheists like for example I was before. It is your own choice if you believe the clear evidence or not. Some people refuse to believe even the truth is shown to them how clearly ever but still they say "we don´t believe". Well, it´s their own free will what works in their minds. Are the evidencies enough to convince or not is not the matter - they have decided not to believe by their own choice.
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czgibson
10-19-2015, 11:21 PM
Greetings, Muhammad,

Originally Posted by Muhammad
This thread was made by a Muslim seeking advice from fellow Muslims about da'wah. He already indicated he was aware of the atheist viewpoint in the first post.
He's shown that he's aware of the basic atheist position, but you would need to know far more than that in order to begin a convincing case directed at an atheist. Without understanding the reasons for the atheist position, or the possible nuances that such a position might entail, any attempt to engage an atheist in a serious discussion would be naive and fruitless.

Moreover, the replies from atheists so far have been nothing short of unhelpful.
That is your judgement, and you are entitled to it.

Beyond the usual ignorant remarks about religion, we are being told we have no evidence for what we believe in and even worse - how to give da'wah, or not to bother with da'wah.
Pygo and I have made a sincere attempt to understand your religion over a number of years on this forum, and because we have come to different conclusions than you, you accuse us of ignorance. You also repeatedly misrepresent what we have said.

If we have offered advice on how to invite people to Islam, then that is because that is what the OP was asking for. Forgive us for being the wrong type of person; it was a sincere attempt to help.

I don't recall anyone saying that Muslims should not bother with dawah. If you are referring to my question about how dawah can be worthwhile given that Allah guides whom he wills, I asked it because that to me looks like an obvious contradiction, not because I'm saying Muslims shouldn't do it. Of course they have the right to do it.

It would be far more sensible if non-Muslims did not advise Muslims about their religious duties.
It's strange that you can't see how an understanding of the atheist position could be of use to someone attempting to call an atheist to Islam.

You mentioned the Qur'an. This is among the greatest evidences for the truth of Islam. Numerous people have converted to Islam simply by reading a translation of the Qur'an, including atheists such as Dr Jeffrey Lang.
I'm sure many have read it and not been convinced. But what does that prove? Just as little as your claim regarding converts.

We have people on this very forum who have found Islam through the Qur'an. Even the staunch opponents of the Prophet :saws: could not deny the sublimity of this scripture and could not tear themselves away from hearing it.
So how do you explain the large numbers of people who have no trouble in denying the sublimity of the text?

Clearly, it is not 'entirely dependent on prior belief in God'.
You present this as though it is a conclusion from your previous statements, when in fact it doesn't logically follow at all. On his journey from atheism to Islam, Jeffrey Lang must have first accepted belief in god and then continued to accept all the other beliefs of Islam. How else could such a thought process work? You have said yourself in previous discussions that Islamic beliefs on all the matters of life are reliant on a firm foundation of belief that there is one God, and the subsequent belief that Muhammad is his messenger.

Only recently you remarked how the oldest Qur'an fragments found in Birmingham University were 'an amazing discovery of global significance.' I wonder if you 'saw through' that as well...
I stand by that, of course. It's an immensely important discovery. I don't see anything in it to support the claims you make, nor do I see how it contradicts or detracts from anything I've said. What are you getting at here?

Peace
Reply

Muhammad
10-26-2015, 04:10 PM
Greetings Pygoscelis,

You say that you are open to the possibility of there being a Creator and that your mind is open. This is good to hear. I do wish, however, this was better reflected in the posts of atheists who, rather than seeking answers and growth of understanding, consistently seem to be determined to undermine.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Correct. There is no evidence to prove they are not true. I have no way to falsify them, so that will always be so. However, that, by itself, doesn't mean I should adopt said beliefs. That is the point of those analogies you noted. They are other things that we can not disprove. The point of them being outlandish is to show that just because something can not be disproved, doesn't mean we should believe in them. Can we agree on that much?
No. I'm not saying to adopt belief in Islam simply because it cannot be disproven. I said above that it is a logical and coherent belief in one God - a belief supported by Prophets and Messengers throughout the ages, scriptures, signs and miracles, logical arguments, innate human nature, and more. It leaves no room for doubt. The Qur'an challenges,

And if you are in doubt concerning that which We have sent down to Our slave, then produce a Surah (chapter) of the like thereof and call your witnesses besides Allah, if you are truthful. [Qur'an 2:23]


Repeatedly mankind is asked to reflect and belief in religion is supported with reason after reason:

Do they not then consider the Qur'an carefully? Had it been from other than Allah, they would surely have found therein many a contradiction. [Qur'an 4:82]


If, as you say, deep down they knew what the right path was, then they believed all along, didn't they?
We are using the term 'belief' in different ways. In Islam, 'faith' is more than simply an awareness in one's heart. It is possible to know God exists and that Islam is the right religion yet fail to follow that up with action and enter into the fold of Islam. I'm not saying you or anyone else falls under this description. I'm simply pointing out that such a choice does exist.

I hope this post has helped you understand. That may actually help you with your dawah too. As the other nice atheist fellow asked, the dawah thing is more than just for show, right? You actually intend to reach some people, save some souls and all that? Knowing your audience should help you in getting across your message, should it not?
Understanding works both ways. There's no need to concern yourself with Muslims' responsibility of da'wah especially when you do not share our concern or perspective. When someone wishes to explore atheism, they will specifically ask.
Reply

Muhammad
10-26-2015, 04:16 PM
Greetings czgibson,

Originally Posted by czgibson
He's shown that he's aware of the basic atheist position, but you would need to know far more than that in order to begin a convincing case directed at an atheist. Without understanding the reasons for the atheist position, or the possible nuances that such a position might entail, any attempt to engage an atheist in a serious discussion would be naive and fruitless.
My issue is not with clarifying what atheists actually believe. We have had numerous threads discussing atheism in the Comparative Religion section. My issue is with atheists derailing threads like this with their opinions on how Muslims don't have any evidence, comparing their beliefs to ridiculous ideas and degrading the Qur'an.

Pygo and I have made a sincere attempt to understand your religion over a number of years on this forum, and because we have come to different conclusions than you, you accuse us of ignorance. You also repeatedly misrepresent what we have said.
The ‘ignorance’ is with regards to comparing our beliefs to ridiculous ideas. Surely a sincere attempt for numerous years could clarify this much at least. I’m not sure which ‘repeated’ misrepresentations I’ve made here.

If we have offered advice on how to invite people to Islam, then that is because that is what the OP was asking for. Forgive us for being the wrong type of person; it was a sincere attempt to help.
You’ve made it very clear to me elsewhere what you think of my religion. Forgive me if I have difficulty in believing you would be interested in helping to convert people to Islam.

I don't recall anyone saying that Muslims should not bother with dawah.
I was referring to Pygoscelis’ statements such as, ‘There is no need to give Dawah to atheists’.

It's strange that you can't see how an understanding of the atheist position could be of use to someone attempting to call an atheist to Islam.
As I said above, the main issue is not with understanding atheism. It is also problematic for atheists to be advising Muslims about something they barely understand – the Islamic concept of da’wah.

I'm sure many have read it and not been convinced. But what does that prove? Just as little as your claim regarding converts.

So how do you explain the large numbers of people who have no trouble in denying the sublimity of the text?


You present this as though it is a conclusion from your previous statements, when in fact it doesn't logically follow at all. On his journey from atheism to Islam, Jeffrey Lang must have first accepted belief in god and then continued to accept all the other beliefs of Islam. How else could such a thought process work?
I don’t see the difficulty here. It’s very easy for someone to accept belief in God after reading the Qur’an. Throughout the Scripture, we are introduced to God and the concept of monotheism is illustrated in numerous ways and examples. We are asked to reflect, ponder and reason on this subject repeatedly. My statements about the Qur’an changing people was to highlight it is not dependent on anything prior. For those who are not moved by it, it is their loss. The Qur'an itself says that not everyone will be guided.

You have said yourself in previous discussions that Islamic beliefs on all the matters of life are reliant on a firm foundation of belief that there is one God, and the subsequent belief that Muhammad is his messenger.
I have spoken of Islam being based on firm foundations. But I don’t think you are applying what I said correctly here.

I stand by that, of course. It's an immensely important discovery. I don't see anything in it to support the claims you make, nor do I see how it contradicts or detracts from anything I've said. What are you getting at here?
Earlier you claimed that an atheist would be able to ‘see through’ the Qur’an as a support for the truth of Islam. When you yourself have acknowledged an extraordinary aspect of the Qur’an, namely its precise preservation, why then do you speak of it here as though it has no significance?
Reply

Pygoscelis
10-26-2015, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by Muhammad
We are using the term 'belief' in different ways. In Islam, 'faith' is more than simply an awareness in one's heart. It is possible to know God exists and that Islam is the right religion yet fail to follow that up with action and enter into the fold of Islam. I'm not saying you or anyone else falls under this description. I'm simply pointing out that such a choice does exist.
This I can agree with. If somebody believes God exists and knows what God wills of them, then, and only then they do indeed have a choice, and sometimes we hear of believers saying they strive and try hard to do as their god commands, but sometimes fall short, etc. But that is with what I would call believers, and certainly not atheists. Atheists are people who don't believe. We don't have the choice you speak of here. And I think that is vital for believers to understand. We really truly don't believe your God(s) is/are real. The over the top comparisons you refer to are usually made to drive that point home, as it seems to get lost very easily in the minds of believers, who keep going back to the assumption that atheists Do believe and we are just in rebellion or something. We often get told we "reject" God or are infidels to God etc. But we are not. You can not reject what doesn't exist and you can't disobey a fictional character, which is what God is from our point of view.

Sometimes atheists may come across as hostile or as belittling your beliefs, but don't presume this to be so. A rejection of your beliefs is not a rejection of you as a person, nor is it necessarily done in bad faith. The person rejecting your beliefs may have every reason to do so, and at the same time, you may have every reason to hold your beliefs. This is not a contradiction, since you have separate life experiences and knowledge bases.
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Muhammad
10-26-2015, 09:24 PM
Pygoscelis,

Although I understand what you are saying about atheists, I disagree that you have no choice. God is the Most Just and the Most Merciful. He wishes guidance for His creation and He has facilitated that in many ways. God has created humankind with the inclination to be guided and take the right path. He has given man the ability to distinguish between truth and falsehood, between what is beneficial and what is harmful, by means of the reason that He has instilled in him, and the explanations with which He has sent His Messengers. You may see God as a fictional entity at this stage of your life, but you do have a choice to investigate, to reflect and overcome the reasons for this. If a person strives to be good and to follow the right path, Allaah The Almighty will guide him to the right path:

And those who strive for Us— We will surely guide them to Our ways. [Quran 29:69]


Many times, people do not even seem to be making an effort to understand. They are only interested in misquoting verses and misrepresenting teachings of Islam to support a negative image they wish to portray. I took issue with the comparisons you made earlier because there are no good reasons to believe such things, yet there is every reason to accept Islam.

So where are you going?
It is not except a reminder to the worlds
For whoever wills among you to take a right course.
And you do not will except that Allah wills - Lord of the worlds.

[Qur'an 81: 26-29]
Reply

M.I.A.
10-26-2015, 10:27 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This I can agree with. If somebody believes God exists and knows what God wills of them, then, and only then they do indeed have a choice, and sometimes we hear of believers saying they strive and try hard to do as their god commands, but sometimes fall short, etc. But that is with what I would call believers, and certainly not atheists. Atheists are people who don't believe. We don't have the choice you speak of here. And I think that is vital for believers to understand. We really truly don't believe your God(s) is/are real. The over the top comparisons you refer to are usually made to drive that point home, as it seems to get lost very easily in the minds of believers, who keep going back to the assumption that atheists Do believe and we are just in rebellion or something. We often get told we "reject" God or are infidels to God etc. But we are not. You can not reject what doesn't exist and you can't disobey a fictional character, which is what God is from our point of view.

Sometimes atheists may come across as hostile or as belittling your beliefs, but don't presume this to be so. A rejection of your beliefs is not a rejection of you as a person, nor is it necessarily done in bad faith. The person rejecting your beliefs may have every reason to do so, and at the same time, you may have every reason to hold your beliefs. This is not a contradiction, since you have separate life experiences and knowledge bases.
Everybody has separate life experiences.?

I like your signature.

You would be surprised how many of us are obedient rather than moral..

But it does sound nice.

You have had the football analogy but most have never considered the stadium.. Or what is outside of it.

A lot of people turn to religion in prison.


..ever considered why schizophrenics don't have positive voices in there heads?


Brain chemistry :|

Iv not been to prison by the way.


I guess the only way to make the post relevant is to make the analogy of sharing a room.. A lot of people already do this.
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czgibson
10-30-2015, 11:54 PM
Greetings, Muhammad,

Originally Posted by Muhammad
Greetings czgibson,

My issue is not with clarifying what atheists actually believe. We have had numerous threads discussing atheism in the Comparative Religion section.
How long has that section been closed now?

My issue is with atheists derailing threads like this with their opinions on how Muslims don't have any evidence, comparing their beliefs to ridiculous ideas and degrading the Qur'an.
I'm not sure if you are expressing surprise here about what are very common ideas that tend to follow directly from the atheist position. Surely a da'ee would be well advised to keep them in mind when engaging an atheist in discussion?

You’ve made it very clear to me elsewhere what you think of my religion. Forgive me if I have difficulty in believing you would be interested in helping to convert people to Islam.
Here's one of the misrepresentations I was talking about. I don't remember saying I was interested in helping convert people to Islam. What I am interested in doing is helping Muslims to understand the atheist position, so that (hopefully) the quality of discussion between Muslims and non-Muslims can be improved.

I was referring to Pygoscelis’ statements such as, ‘There is no need to give Dawah to atheists’.
Fair enough, I missed that.

As I said above, the main issue is not with understanding atheism. It is also problematic for atheists to be advising Muslims about something they barely understand – the Islamic concept of da’wah.
It seems to be a pretty straightforward concept to me.

I don’t see the difficulty here. It’s very easy for someone to accept belief in God after reading the Qur’an.
Perhaps, yes. And then they might subsequently accept the rest of the Islamic beliefs. That is the point I was making. Misrepresentation #2.

I have spoken of Islam being based on firm foundations. But I don’t think you are applying what I said correctly here.
I'm not surprised to see you moving the goalposts once again.

Earlier you claimed that an atheist would be able to ‘see through’ the Qur’an as a support for the truth of Islam. When you yourself have acknowledged an extraordinary aspect of the Qur’an, namely its precise preservation, why then do you speak of it here as though it has no significance?
And here is misrepresentation #3. Please show me where I referred to the precise preservation of the Qur'an as being extraordinary. It's impressive in the same way as the preservation of any ancient text is impressive, but that isn't the same as saying there's anything miraculous about it, or that it points to the truth of Islam. You may as well say that the preservation of Hesiod's Theogony points to the truth of ancient Greek mythology.

Peace
Reply

Muhammad
10-31-2015, 11:49 PM
Greetings czgibson,

Originally Posted by czgibson
How long has that section been closed now?
It was closed for good reason, as this thread is proving.

I'm not sure if you are expressing surprise here about what are very common ideas that tend to follow directly from the atheist position.
I see. So those same atheists who apparently 'have made a sincere attempt to understand [Islam] over a number of years on this forum' now know no better than to purport 'common ideas'.

Here's one of the misrepresentations I was talking about. I don't remember saying I was interested in helping convert people to Islam. What I am interested in doing is helping Muslims to understand the atheist position, so that (hopefully) the quality of discussion between Muslims and non-Muslims can be improved.
You described your presence in this thread as a 'sincere attempt to help' in the context of inviting people to Islam. Obviously that can be understood in different ways. Now you give a clarification, but that doesn't mean I deliberately misrepresented what you said earlier.

It seems to be a pretty straightforward concept to me.
I'm glad if that is the case. Earlier you seemed to think there was a contradiction.

Perhaps, yes. And then they might subsequently accept the rest of the Islamic beliefs. That is the point I was making. Misrepresentation #2.
I think a misunderstanding (again, not a deliberate misrepresentation) has occurred somewhere here. Perhaps it is the outcome of focusing on individual sentences rather than viewing them in the context in which they were said. This part of the post is stemming from what you said earlier: 'Don't start with the Qur'an or any other arguments that are specific to Islam, because an atheist will see through them and immediately notice that they are all entirely dependent on prior belief in god.' What I understood from this is that you believe the Qur'an can only be appreciated by someone who already believes in God. I was saying that the Qur'an can be appreciated by anyone, even atheists who don't believe in God, and is a means for them to find belief.

And here is misrepresentation #3. Please show me where I referred to the precise preservation of the Qur'an as being extraordinary. It's impressive in the same way as the preservation of any ancient text is impressive, but that isn't the same as saying there's anything miraculous about it, or that it points to the truth of Islam.
As before, this is simply pedantry. I didn't claim you were affirming a miracle of the Qur'an. The main thing I was highlighting was an appreciation of an aspect of the Qur'an, by the same person who seems to be implying it is a text of no or little significance, and that it is only appreciable by those already believing in God (which is evidently not the case. Again, I'm not saying you actually said these exact words. It's what I understood from your post). The discovery of the oldest Qur'an fragments, amongst other things, naturally points to the preservation of the Qur'an. If you didn't intend to make such a positive statement about the Qur'an, I'm sorry for assuming so.

It should be added, though, the preservation of the Qur'an is something that is very easy to appreciate as unique. Muslims everywhere memorize the Qur'an, many millions memorizing the entire Qur'an from cover to cover, If all the books in the entire world were to be lost or destroyed, only the Qur'an would be recovered letter for letter as it is preserved in the hearts of so many millions. As far as the textual history goes, the criteria used in the compilation of the Qur'an was that for each verse there had to be at least two witnesses, each of whom having not only memorized the verse but had with them the parchment on which they recorded the verse in the presence of the Prophet :saws: himself. No other scripture has been preserved in such a way. How could it, when the preservation of this Book is promised by Allaah :swt: Himself.
Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed, We will be its guardian. [Qur'an 15:9]
Reply

Pygoscelis
11-02-2015, 08:07 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
Everybody has separate life experiences.?
Yes. We grow up in different countries, as different genders, races, etc. Our parents may have different religions, political beliefs, etc. We may be exposed to different ideas in different orders. Even identical twins raised by the same parents will not have the exact same life experiences. All that needs to happen is that they be apart for a moment or two. Our life experiences go a long way towards forming who we are, so your life experiences may have brought to to a completely rational belief in Islam, and mine may have brought me to a completely rational dismissal of it. It doesn't have to be a contradiction and neither of us have to be irrational. Perhaps you know something I do not, or vice versa, etc.

I like your signature.

You would be surprised how many of us are obedient rather than moral..
Thank you. It is something that occurred to me long ago, and something I try to keep in mind. Being good doesn't mean doing what one is told. It can sometimes mean the opposite, depending what one is told.

A lot of people turn to religion in prison.
Yes, and I don't find that surprising at all. It both looks good on them in front of parole boards, and it lets them feel they have a new life and a new chance, etc. Though I suspect some of them do it for show, I think a lot of them are sincere.

Originally Posted by Muhammad
It was closed for good reason, as this thread is proving.
I am glad it was at least left readable. It is a good display for Muslims who come here and are curious, as the most recent posts in it are some pretty aggressive and hateful attacks on atheists (and Christians), replied to in very gentle and kind ways. It reminds of of the Muslim lady who bought the islamophobe a coffee in response to his hate mentioned in another recent post here. I look forward to a day when people don't judge or hate each other based on labels like "Muslim", "Atheist", etc.
Reply

Abz2000
11-02-2015, 09:18 PM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Yes. We grow up in different countries, as different genders, races, etc. Our parents may have different religions, political beliefs, etc. We may be exposed to different ideas in different orders. Even identical twins raised by the same parents will not have the exact same life experiences. All that needs to happen is that they be apart for a moment or two. Our life experiences go a long way towards forming who we are, so your life experiences may have brought to to a completely rational belief in Islam, and mine may have brought me to a completely rational dismissal of it. It doesn't have to be a contradiction and neither of us have to be irrational. Perhaps you know something I do not, or vice versa, etc.
excuse me, putting an infection causing chip in someone's head at age six in order to shadow light with darkness in disguise due to fear of the repercussions one's (one cartel's) evil deeds may bring, and then claiming there's no God, the messengers are deluded or lying, and denying the fact while the person suffers due to the burden of your crimes is irrational and criminal.


Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Thank you. It is something that occurred to me long ago, and something I try to keep in mind. Being good doesn't mean doing what one is told. It can sometimes mean the opposite, depending what one is told.
then let karma take care of you, as Allah says in Surah al Isra' - if you did good you did it for yourselves, and if you did evil you did it against yourselves,
and:
Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss:
No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning).
16. When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.

and in chapter 2
256.*Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.
257.*Allah is the Protector of those who have faith: from the depths of darkness He will lead them forth into light.
Of those who reject faith the patrons are the evil ones: from light they will lead them forth into the depths of darkness. They will be companions of the fire, to dwell therein (For ever).

101.*And when there came to them a messenger from Allah, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the Book threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if (it had been something) they did not know!
102.*They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of Solomon: and Solomon did not disbelieve but the satans disbelieved, teaching people sorcery, and such things as came down at babylon to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of these taught anyone (Such things) without saying: "We are only for trial; so do not disbelieve." They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah.s permission. And they learned what harmed them, not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers of (magic) would have no share in the happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls, if they but knew!
103.*If they had kept their Faith and guarded themselves from evil, far better had been the reward from their Lord, if they but knew!
104.*O ye of Faith! Say not (to the Messenger ra'ina (words of ambiguous import/look at what we do/try to figure us out/our shepherd), but say undhurnaa and hearken (to him): To those without Faith is a grievous punishment.
105.*It is never the wish of those without Faith among the People of the Book, nor of the Pagans, that anything good should come down to you from your Lord. But Allah will choose for His special Mercy whom He will - for Allah is Lord of grace abounding.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Yes, and I don't find that surprising at all. It both looks good on them in front of parole boards, and it lets them feel they have a new life and a new chance, etc. Though I suspect some of them do it for show, I think a lot of them are sincere.
when people are in the sea and a storm comes, and there's no land in sight, they normally realize that there is no God but Allah.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I am glad it was at least left readable. It is a good display for Muslims who come here and are curious, as the most recent posts in it are some pretty aggressive and hateful attacks on atheists (and Christians), replied to in very gentle and kind ways. It reminds of of the Muslim lady who bought the islamophobe a coffee in response to his hate mentioned in another recent post here. I look forward to a day when people don't judge or hate each other based on labels like "Muslim", "Atheist", etc.
[/quote]

do you also look forward to the day when people don't judge each other based on "law abiding citizen" and "criminal"?
Reply

Pygoscelis
11-03-2015, 12:35 AM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
excuse me, putting an infection causing chip in someone's head at age six in order to shadow light with darkness in disguise due to fear of the repercussions one's (one cartel's) evil deeds may bring, and then claiming there's no God, the messengers are deluded or lying, and denying the fact while the person suffers due to the burden of your crimes is irrational and criminal.
This is a great example of how not to be effective in giving dawah to atheists. It isn't coherent enough to understand what he is trying to say, but it barbed enough to seem hostile. If you want to really reach somebody, you need to be both clear and non-threatening. Nobody is going to convert to your religion, or even be tolerant towards it, if you play into hateful stereotypes.

do you also look forward to the day when people don't judge each other based on "law abiding citizen" and "criminal"?
Equating "Atheist" with "criminal" is really all I need to know about Abz to dismiss him out of hand. It makes him no better than those in the west to equate "Muslim" with terrorist. What I look forward to is a day when we can see each other as equals and live in peace.
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Abz2000
11-03-2015, 01:13 AM
Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
This is a great example of how not to be effective in giving dawah to atheists. It isn't coherent enough to understand what he is trying to say, but it barbed enough to seem hostile. If you want to really reach somebody, you need to be both clear and non-threatening. Nobody is going to convert to your religion, or even be tolerant towards it, if you play into hateful stereotypes.
the facts are clear, the Quran is clear, and the reaction to the truth of all mankind is almost clear,
following the truth will earn you respect and reward, Allah speaks the truth and never breaks His promise.
i'm tapping on the steering wheel dude, fasten your seatbelt.

Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Equating "Atheist" with "criminal" is really all I need to know about Abz to dismiss him out of hand. It makes him no better than those in the west to equate "Muslim" with terrorist. What I look forward to is a day when we can see each other as equals and live in peace.
my Lord and your Lord, my Creator and your Creator has sent down the law for all mankind and jinn, anyone who breaks His law is a criminal - let us repent of our faults and walk aright, He'll forgive us and assist us, then reward us when we meet Him.

let us not try and dispute against and condemn the truth with falsehood in enmity and rebellion towards God and then pretend we meant no more than goodwill and reconciliation when confronted.
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czgibson
11-06-2015, 01:23 AM
Greetings, Muhammad,

Originally Posted by Muhammad
It was closed for good reason, as this thread is proving.
You are of course free to close whatever you like on this forum. However, I can't help wondering why you seem so keen to shut down interfaith dialogues like this on the merest pretext. Why wouldn't you want Muslims and non-Muslims to discuss issues like the present one openly?

I see. So those same atheists who apparently 'have made a sincere attempt to understand [Islam] over a number of years on this forum' now know no better than to purport 'common ideas'.
The common ideas I refer to are to do with the atheist position, which a potential da'ee might not be familiar with, not to do with understanding Islam. Given this, I am afraid I can't see what point you are trying to make here.

You described your presence in this thread as a 'sincere attempt to help' in the context of inviting people to Islam. Obviously that can be understood in different ways. Now you give a clarification, but that doesn't mean I deliberately misrepresented what you said earlier.
No, you got the wrong end of the stick and made an assumption that was not warranted by my words. Which, I have to say, is becoming rather a common occurrence.

I'm glad if that is the case. Earlier you seemed to think there was a contradiction.
I still do. The idea of preaching Islam seems simple enough by itself; the contradiction arises when it is juxtaposed with the idea that Allah "guides whom he wills".

I think a misunderstanding (again, not a deliberate misrepresentation) has occurred somewhere here. Perhaps it is the outcome of focusing on individual sentences rather than viewing them in the context in which they were said. This part of the post is stemming from what you said earlier: 'Don't start with the Qur'an or any other arguments that are specific to Islam, because an atheist will see through them and immediately notice that they are all entirely dependent on prior belief in god.' What I understood from this is that you believe the Qur'an can only be appreciated by someone who already believes in God. I was saying that the Qur'an can be appreciated by anyone, even atheists who don't believe in God, and is a means for them to find belief.
Perhaps I could have been clearer, so I apologise; I can see how you may have misunderstood this. I was thinking of the common situation where a Muslim attempts to convince an atheist that a Muslim belief is justified, and uses Qur'anic evidence to support it, forgetting that the atheist sees no special value in the Qur'an above any other book.

As before, this is simply pedantry.
No, we're back to more of your hasty assumptions.

I didn't claim you were affirming a miracle of the Qur'an. The main thing I was highlighting was an appreciation of an aspect of the Qur'an, by the same person who seems to be implying it is a text of no or little significance,
I don't claim this at all. The Qur'an is easily one of the most significant books ever written. Please understand that you are presenting a grossly simplified version of my position, here and elsewhere.

and that it is only appreciable by those already believing in God
To believe in its truth, a person would have to believe in God already. That is my claim. However, an atheist might well appreciate it on purely literary grounds, for example.

The discovery of the oldest Qur'an fragments, amongst other things, naturally points to the preservation of the Qur'an.
Yes, and finding such fragments is an impressive discovery. The preservation of the text, though, is no more extraordinary than the preservation of countless other ancient texts.

If you didn't intend to make such a positive statement about the Qur'an, I'm sorry for assuming so.
Well, that is very fair of you and I thank you.

It should be added, though, the preservation of the Qur'an is something that is very easy to appreciate as unique. Muslims everywhere memorize the Qur'an, many millions memorizing the entire Qur'an from cover to cover, If all the books in the entire world were to be lost or destroyed, only the Qur'an would be recovered letter for letter as it is preserved in the hearts of so many millions.
While the widespread memorisation of the Qur'an is impressive in some ways, there is no way to test your claim here without actually destroying all the books and trying it. In that situation, though, I believe the worldwide acting and academic communities would be able to make a strong effort to restore many of the works of Shakespeare, for example. Many other regularly performed plays would also be able to be rescued in such a way, and I think it's reasonable to suppose it would be possible to amass a body of texts far larger than the Qur'an.

In other words, this mass memorisation doesn't really demonstrate anything other than the ability of people to memorise text. This doesn't stop Muslim preachers from repeating the claim as you have done here.

Peace
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