Paedophilia

[hisnameiszzz]

Hi all,

It seems like my account never got closed as I had asked for as I got an email the other day and I thought I would pop back and ask a few questions.

I know this topic might be uncomfortable, so please skip and don't read if that's the case. I hope the moderators do not block this as I am just after some suggestions and advice.

So to cut a long story short: Man locked up for 6 months for years and years of grooming and under age s e x with girls aged 12 and under (reported in every single local newspaper). Man released from Prison and becomes exemplary Muslim - keeps a beard, comes to Mosque, goes to Jamaat etc. He starts giving Adhaan. Still a regular at the Mosque.

My questions are:

1) Should someone like that be giving Adhaan? I thought the person who gave Adhaan had to be someone respectable with good traits. OK, I understand the person might not be perfect, but should someone who did these things actually be allowed to do the call to prayer? Weirdly enough, the other person who gave Adhaan normally has been locked up for the same offences. Please don't get me wrong, I am not saying his criminal offence should follow him around for the rest of his life but this is quite serious.

2) If the Mosque is right next to the Madarasah (same building but different entrances), shouldn't this person be reported? Should the Mosque/Madrasah not have a duty of care to the children that attend? I ask this because I work with vulnerable young people and the offender (when it comes to underage s e x offences) when released from Prison has rules and regulations they have to follow such as they can't live near a school or go anywhere near one or they will end up locked up again. There is another Mosque about 2 minutes away which he could go to. There is no Madrasah there so there would be no temptation.

Please don't get me wrong, I am sure both of these men are wonderful lovely people and I am not judging them. I am simply trying to understand why they are allowed to be in a place where there are innocent young children about.

I am sorry if these questions offend but when the second person who gave Adhaan got locked up, a lot of people at work were asking the Muslims about this and no one seemed to have an answer. I got grilled by people in my team and I was actually left wondering.

Thanks.

[BilalKid]

maybe he repented??

[Alpha Dude]

You should talk to the members in charge of the mosque yourself and highlight your concerns.

[aflawedbeing]

maybe he repented??

Sure. Maybe he did.

Maybe though, it's not necessarily that black and white and he may fall back into such abhorrent behaviour quite easily.

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[Karl]

Under Sharia law the man would have been guilty of Zina and so too the girls he had sex with. This hysterical problem with sex under a certain age is a modern Western concept first instigated by feminists in 19th century England. The reason then was money, as the old prostitutes had too much competition with the young ones, so they petitioned the government to put age restrictions on prostitution. The same happened with labour laws when things got tough later on, so children were banned from working. If you study modern Western culture you will find the answer to everything is money not morality or ethics. Of course they will play all morality and ethics but this is all lies and deceit.

[M.I.A.]

Don't know, knew a few young boys that were sexually abused as children..

By relatives and family friends no less.

Strange days.

...I doubt any manner of grooming is allowed or can be justified under sharia.

The mind boggles.

[Karl]

Don't know, knew a few young boys that were sexually abused as children..

By relatives and family friends no less.

Strange days.

...I doubt any manner of grooming is allowed or can be justified under sharia.

The mind boggles.

Define "sexually abused" as in most cases these are homosexual boys that give consent but sometimes it is rape and other forms of coercion. And grooming just means chatting up or dating. Homosexuality is haram. I suppose there is a grey area as female is the base sex not all males make it across from female and are feminoids (he she) and some females with genetic conditions lack femininity and are masculoids (she he). There are more complications with gender identity. Read some sexology books and genetics, you will be amazed at the complexities of genders.

Unlike the West where anything goes if you are of legal age 18 or 16 etc. In Islam morality is constant and the correct protocols must be followed. Except for your slaves that your right hand possess.

[M.I.A.]

I'm not really at liberty to say.

Although asking a child for consent is not really a valid principal in western law.

Consent cannot be taken from a child during field trips, doctors visits.

Children are not allowed to buy alcohol, cigarettes, fireworks.

Children are not allowed to vote.

It's a very strange way of stating your case.

Are children even aware of sexual identity? In most cases I would say not.

It's almost funny lol..

Simply because I'd think of it as taking advantage of someone..

I can't even ask my staff to do dogs body jobs.

Very strange.

I guess the defining principle of the matter is if any person involved could get consent from the parents.


I recently saw it reported on the "TV" that Afghan police officers are notorious for the abuse of young boys..

Although there parents are aware of it.

So maybe my point does not stand.

I'm afraid to say sometimes I see the cogs turning, but I can't find the creator.

...those that your right hands posses

Good goy

[greenhill]

Salaams @hisnameiszzz . Nice of you to visit again..

I suppose there are two parts to this.

First being about the repentance (and his sincerity) which we cannot judge.

The second is the 'vetting' process when it comes to choosing candidates.

I believe that the idea of vetting people is a universal thing and should be the same in islam. The onus is on the people to do background check and not rely 100% on 'appearance'. The question is how thorough each background check should be?

Makes sense?

:peace:

[Karl]

I'm not really at liberty to say.

Although asking a child for consent is not really a valid principal in western law.

Consent cannot be taken from a child during field trips, doctors visits.

Children are not allowed to buy alcohol, cigarettes, fireworks.

Children are not allowed to vote.

It's a very strange way of stating your case.

Are children even aware of sexual identity? In most cases I would say not.

It's almost funny lol..

Simply because I'd think of it as taking advantage of someone..

I can't even ask my staff to do dogs body jobs.

Very strange.

I guess the defining principle of the matter is if any person involved could get consent from the parents.


I recently saw it reported on the "TV" that Afghan police officers are notorious for the abuse of young boys..

Although there parents are aware of it.

So maybe my point does not stand.

I'm afraid to say sometimes I see the cogs turning, but I can't find the creator.

...those that your right hands posses

Good goy

I'm not really at liberty to say.

Although asking a child for consent is not really a valid principal in western law.

Consent cannot be taken from a child during field trips, doctors visits.

Children are not allowed to buy alcohol, cigarettes, fireworks.

Children are not allowed to vote.

It's a very strange way of stating your case.

Are children even aware of sexual identity? In most cases I would say not.

It's almost funny lol..

Simply because I'd think of it as taking advantage of someone..

I can't even ask my staff to do dogs body jobs.

Very strange.

I guess the defining principle of the matter is if any person involved could get consent from the parents.


I recently saw it reported on the "TV" that Afghan police officers are notorious for the abuse of young boys..

Although there parents are aware of it.

So maybe my point does not stand.

I'm afraid to say sometimes I see the cogs turning, but I can't find the creator.

...those that your right hands posses

Good goy

"Children" means prepubescent people but in the West the age restrictions cover adolescents and adults too, under the age of 18. Islam does not work this way as the prerequisite for sex is marriage, not how old you are. And it is not wise to generalize about children and "minors" in what they may know and do as it shows how simple you are. For example "Are children even aware of sexual identity? In most cases I would say not". I was aware that I was a boy attracted to girls at a very young age. And I suspect others do too.
"I recently saw it reported on the "TV" that Afghan police officers are notorious for the abuse of young boys..". Yes Asia has a lot of gay boys, it does take a while for them to grow out of it, go straight and get married. But some just stay gay and dress like women. Very much rarer the case for us Norse stock.

[M.I.A.]

...i dont even know how to respond to that.

maybe one day they will let me loose. :D

:|


...nope, probably not before they bury me.


i remember once a nieghbours dad who i spent a lot of time with... his daughter not the dad..

asking me if i played keyboard..

the look on my face when i said yes, pressed a few random keys and then passed it off like i wasnt in the musical mood..


kids will be kids but **** im near wooden nowadays.

god nose.


now i dream of cars and miss running.

[hisnameiszzz]

Hi all,

Thanks for your replies.

Having read my opening post, you must forgive me. It seems like I am judging this gentleman which I am not. He can do what he wants with who he wants, it's none of my business.

I only had alarm bells ringings because I work with young people and perpetrators do want to change but often fall back into the same trap (not that I am saying this man will, I hope he has changed for good). Now if this were to happen in the Mosque or the Madrassah, it would be doors closed for good which would be a huge shame.

It just makes me cringe when I go to the Mosque and he is giving Adhaan, or he is sat near the joint entrance to the Mosque / Madrassah.

[hisnameiszzz]

Cripes! He now gives Adhaan every Jummah which makes me want to get up and walk out. I wish he would let someone else do it. I would not go to another Masjid because this is my local one and I love the 2 Imaams that give the bayaans every week.

I am not judging him, but he was plastered all over the papers when he got locked up and the amount of backlash that Islam got in my immediate area after he did the cruel and evil things was awful. What if the families of the victims found about this, I am sure they would be furious.

I am surprised the committee and the people high up in the Masjid have not told him to stop giving Adhaan. It's fine that he has repented and turned a new leaf, but the crime he committed was just plain awful. I don't think it would bother me that much if he was just a normal criminal who burgled somewhere but abusing little girls. Oh gross.

The other person who gives Adhaan is currently locked up for a year because he too abused little girls and got caught out. Shake my head x 50!

[s.ali123]

Cripes! He now gives Adhaan every Jummah which makes me want to get up and walk out. I wish he would let someone else do it. I would not go to another Masjid because this is my local one and I love the 2 Imaams that give the bayaans every week.

I am not judging him, but he was plastered all over the papers when he got locked up and the amount of backlash that Islam got in my immediate area after he did the cruel and evil things was awful. What if the families of the victims found about this, I am sure they would be furious.

I am surprised the committee and the people high up in the Masjid have not told him to stop giving Adhaan. It's fine that he has repented and turned a new leaf, but the crime he committed was just plain awful. I don't think it would bother me that much if he was just a normal criminal who burgled somewhere but abusing little girls. Oh gross.

The other person who gives Adhaan is currently locked up for a year because he too abused little girls and got caught out. Shake my head x 50!

Why don't you talk with imam? You say imams are your favorite. May be they have some reason for it? Ask them there can be many reasons.

[hisnameiszzz]

The head Imam is very close friends with both these men. I know it sounds very dodgy but I don't want to go there. For example, one of the said men drives the Imam from home to the Mosque and back. I like the Imam and I don't want to even think about how they are very close or why. Having said that I guess Imam cannot be judgemental.

[sister herb]

I understand your concern and also possible emotional reaction of the families of his victims but... I see this is one of the biggest lessons of the life, called forgiveness. Should people forgive him and the most hard, should his victims forgive him his awful crimes? Yes, they should even it´s hard and may feels almost impossible. It´s easy to say they should I know. When someone hurts us very deeply we still shouldn´t live in hate and anger as it hurts mostly just ourselves, it´s like an endless hunger what eats us inside until we are just only an empty shell.

It´s a good idea to ask this matter from imam. Maybe he also could keep a sermon that deals with the importance of forgiveness.

[hisnameiszzz]

Absolutely agree with you Sister Herb.

I don't think I could forgive this person. In as Islamic country, he would not even be around anymore.

I'm just going to struggle going to Jummah. The only option is to go when the prayer has started so I don't have to be part of the Adhan or just not go at all.

[s.ali123]

Absolutely agree with you Sister Herb.

I don't think I could forgive this person. In as Islamic country, he would not even be around anymore.

I'm just going to struggle going to Jummah. The only option is to go when the prayer has started so I don't have to be part of the Adhan or just not go at all.

I think one aspect that you need to realise is that you are not in "Islamic" country. What he did he has faced his punishment according to the law of the land. And even if you were in an Islamic country, it is not guarenteed that whether he would be killed for it or not, as even for such punishment, the requirement of witnesses etc is also great. Killing someone is not such simple act. As for example, in Pakistan, according to hudood law, which was approved by many scholars around the world of different backgrounds, even for the punishment of rajam, for a person who committed rape, the requirement was of 4 witnesses, and if four witnesses are not there, and rather it is proved that he did it through other means, like dna test, or like less than 4 witnesses etc, than the punishment prescribed was inprisonment to maximum 25 years etc, which is called tazeer in terms of fiqh.
I am not saying whether the above law I mentioned is right or wrong, but I am saying that the Islamic Qadhi looks at many conditions according to fiqh, as killing is not a simple matter.
So get this thought out of your mind that he would not be around. He did something, and he got his punishment, only Allah knows his actions and about his repentence. Stop worrying too much about it.

[hisnameiszzz]

Many thanks for your post.

[BeTheChange]

Asalamualykum,

Believe it or not we were learning about Athaan/Muatthin today in class. I think the below hadith may change your perspective:

The person who calls out the athaan will be among the most honoured person on the day of Judgement (Muslim).

If a person has repented and asked Allah swt for forgiveness who are we to judge? I think this is one of the reasons why we are encouraged not to disclose our sins because people in general struggle to let go and still judge you for that sin.

His deeds are recorded with Allah swt and he is trying to make amends. Who are we as sinners to judge another sinner? Subhana Allah.

Just fulfil your purpose in the masjid and don't fall into the temptation of judging people.

May Allah swt help us all Ameen.

[Umm Abed]

While it is acceptable that they may be forgiven I can understand why you feel like that, and I agree that they shouldnt be given high position due to the actions they committed.

[hisnameiszzz]

Thank you. You are right.

I just find it hard because I work with the victims. Not my family or my kids but my clients and I just feel so badly for them. Hence having strong feelings.

[Serinity]

Under Sharia law the man would have been guilty of Zina and so too the girls he had sex with. This hysterical problem with sex under a certain age is a modern Western concept first instigated by feminists in 19th century England. The reason then was money, as the old prostitutes had too much competition with the young ones, so they petitioned the government to put age restrictions on prostitution. The same happened with labour laws when things got tough later on, so children were banned from working. If you study modern Western culture you will find the answer to everything is money not morality or ethics. Of course they will play all morality and ethics but this is all lies and deceit.

Unless the girls were raped or had no judgment. Or were ignorant, I assume? Or coerced.
If raped, only offender gets the punishment, not the victim.
Allahu alam.

[muslim brother]

this forgiveness idea is so misused and abused nowadays
first of all as this is a case of huqooq ul ibaad..right of creation..
then the decision is left to the victims not even allah taala.
there is a difference in rights of creation and rights of creator in islam.

i have a question
would you let these individuals babysit your children?


as for the mosque and imam..seriously!

the reason we are battered by the far right and the media
is precisely becauses of cases and outcomes like this.

in islam there is also a system of reparations,ex communicating,boycotting

for too long weve been burying our rubbish under the proverbial rug

im afraid the rug is not big enough and itself is now rotten too

lets start to deal with these community issues like men
forget izzat,respect,braaderi and popularity
think true effective justice.

what message does this send out to the victims families?
not to mention people just waiting for negative news stories

[fromelsewhere]

Under Sharia law the man would have been guilty of Zina and so too the girls he had sex with. This hysterical problem with sex under a certain age is a modern Western concept first instigated by feminists in 19th century England. The reason then was money, as the old prostitutes had too much competition with the young ones, so they petitioned the government to put age restrictions on prostitution. The same happened with labour laws when things got tough later on, so children were banned from working. If you study modern Western culture you will find the answer to everything is money not morality or ethics. Of course they will play all morality and ethics but this is all lies and deceit.

There are rules to follow in every country. If you don't like the rules in a given "Westernized" country, you don't have to live there. There are plenty of other countries out there where children are treated like slaves and little girls get married off to much older men. I suggest you would be much happier in such a place.

[fromelsewhere]

I understand your concern and also possible emotional reaction of the families of his victims but... I see this is one of the biggest lessons of the life, called forgiveness. Should people forgive him and the most hard, should his victims forgive him his awful crimes? Yes, they should even it´s hard and may feels almost impossible. It´s easy to say they should I know. When someone hurts us very deeply we still shouldn´t live in hate and anger as it hurts mostly just ourselves, it´s like an endless hunger what eats us inside until we are just only an empty shell.

It´s a good idea to ask this matter from imam. Maybe he also could keep a sermon that deals with the importance of forgiveness.

I am all for forgiveness too (even of pedophiles under certain circumstances), but the person to be forgiven should first demonstrate by acts of kindness (giving to charities, helping poor people, perhaps paying the medical/counselling bills of his victims) that he genuinely repents from his past crimes and that he will NOT do it again. That does not erase the evil he has done, but it definitely helps.

The sad reality however is that a lot of pedophiles never learn, and they are at a high risk of abusing kids again once they get out of jail. Yes people can change, but often, people choose not to. Now let’s have a thought for the victims and their families for a moment. We are talking about girls aged 12 and UNDER having sex with a much older man. What are these girls going to do now? Imagine if a few of them got pregnant and had to go through a traumatizing abortion or give birth and put the baby up for adoption. This is a very embarrassing and traumatizing experience for any young girl to have to go through, the type that haunts you for the rest of your life.

So maybe I am of the minority opinion here (I hope not), but I would also feel quite uncomfortable with having such a man giving Adhaan so soon after his jail sentence. Not that he should be shunned forever, but I am sure there are better people who can give Adhaan for the time being until he proves himself to be deserving of trust.

[Karl]

Unless the girls were raped or had no judgment. Or were ignorant, I assume? Or coerced.
If raped, only offender gets the punishment, not the victim.
Allahu alam.

Yes females have to protect themselves from being the victims of being raped by never being alone in public or around males and always cover up because if God wont stop a rapist how will the law? Also she will not have any witnesses to being raped, how can she prove she did not consent? Also if a female is too loose and then cries rape it can bring dishonour to the family.

[fromelsewhere]

Yes females have to protect themselves from being the victims of being raped by never being alone in public or around males and always cover up because if God wont stop a rapist how will the law? Also she will not have any witnesses to being raped, how can she prove she did not consent? Also if a female is too loose and then cries rape it can bring dishonour to the family.

Why do you feel the need to post the same comment twice? Either way, fact of the matter is that regardless of what females in 'Westernized' countries "should" or "should not" do in their country, we have a case here of an old pedo who clearly did things that are extremely immoral and pervy. The fact that you are putting the blame more on the female victims rather than on the old male pedo makes me blush for your sake. :embarrass Now the last sentence, that's a good one, shifting all the blame on the "loose provocative women" as if men had no control of their body parts. Haha, funny in a twisted way. ;D

Now, I am curious about 2 things in your post: (1) what do you mean by "too loose"? Is a hijab ok or do you need the full burka? Then (2), I quote you: "if God wont stop a rapist how will the law?" What do you mean by this? There are a lot of bad things that God doesn't stop. Do I need to give examples? Failed logic. ;)

[Search]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)

Yes females have to protect themselves from being the victims of being raped by never being alone in public or around males and always cover up because if God wont stop a rapist how will the law? Also she will not have any witnesses to being raped, how can she prove she did not consent? Also if a female is too loose and then cries rape it can bring dishonour to the family.

A victim is never at fault for another person's crime. The moment we internalize this truth society and its people can stop trying to understand what the victim did to deserve x, y, z and instead focus on what allowed the perpetrator to go through with committing a crime against another human being. And rape is one of the worst crimes against a human being, not anything which we should discuss casually without any thought to the victim's feelings. In an incident in which a woman was walking from the mosque and was raped, what stood out to me from that incident was Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) did not inquire into matters like why she was walking alone to the mosque and instead simply asked her to identify the man who did this to her so that justice could be done.

As to the OP's question, there is of course a time and place for mercy and forgiveness in the spiritual realm. However, in the realm of reality, as someone who works in the dependency process in the legal field, essentially part of the process of advocating for children's rights and representing their voice, that is, specifically children who have been mentally, physically, or sexually abused, I do believe that perpetrators who have in the past sexually abused children should not be allowed to be anywhere near children because they have proven themselves to be specifically unreliable as to controlling their sexual impulses and cannot be trusted to be around what seems temptation to them.

When I say this, I don't mean to say that any sinner cannot privately ask Allah for forgiveness and mercy; every sinner can no matter how heinous or evil his/her sins. However, that is not the same thing as allowing a person in essentially what is a position of trust to abuse that trust; having faith in other peoples' ability to reform themselves is a great thing, but it is extremely naive and irresponsible to assume that risk on behalf of other people's children.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)

[Grandad]

:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

:sl: (Peace be upon you)



A victim is never at fault for another person's crime. The moment we internalize this truth society and its people can stop trying to understand what the victim did to deserve x, y, z and instead focus on what allowed the perpetrator to go through with committing a crime against another human being. And rape is one of the worst crimes against a human being, not anything which we should discuss casually without any thought to the victim's feelings. In an incident in which a woman was walking from the mosque and was raped, what stood out to me from that incident was Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) did not inquire into matters like why she was walking alone to the mosque and instead simply asked her to identify the man who did this to her so that justice could be done.

As to the OP's question, there is of course a time and place for mercy and forgiveness in the spiritual realm. However, in the realm of reality, as someone who works in the dependency process in the legal field, essentially part of the process of advocating for children's rights and representing their voice, that is, specifically children who have been mentally, physically, or sexually abused, I do believe that perpetrators who have in the past sexually abused children should not be allowed to be anywhere near children because they have proven themselves to be specifically unreliable as to controlling their sexual impulses and cannot be trusted to be around what seems temptation to them.

When I say this, I don't mean to say that any sinner cannot privately ask Allah for forgiveness and mercy; every sinner can no matter how heinous or evil his/her sins. However, that is not the same thing as allowing a person in essentially what is a position of trust to abuse that trust; having faith in other peoples' ability to reform themselves is a great thing, but it is extremely naive and irresponsible to assume that risk on behalf of other people's children.

:wa: (And peace be upon you)

Exactly.