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jas84173
11-03-2015, 06:05 PM
I have read the entire Bible, which would include the Torah and the Gospel. What is wrong with the Bible that Muslims feel it necessary to have a new scripture? I have always been taught that Jesus is the son of God, and with the Holy Spirit God is three persons and one God. I never really understood it but it is scripture. How and why would the coming of Muhammad be necessary when the Bible was closed after Jesus came and spoke God's truth and died for our atonement and resurrected? I always have issues understanding the differences between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam because they all share so many of the same stories and figures, in fact from what I have read Moses and Jesus are extremely important in Islam.
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Eric H
11-03-2015, 06:32 PM
Greetings and peace be with you jas, and welcome to the forum from another Catholic,

I have been on this forum ten years, I have found people here to be friendly and helpful.

I always have issues understanding the differences between Judaism, Christianity, and Islam because they all share so many of the same stories and figures, in fact from what I have read Moses and Jesus are extremely important in Islam.
I struggle to understand the differences between all the Christian denominations, it begs the question, why can't we just get along with each other, despite our differences?

The same can be said for Judaism, Christianity and Islam, plus all other groups, how do we get on despite our differences?

In he spirit of praying to 'One God'

Eric
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sister herb
11-03-2015, 06:40 PM
Originally Posted by jas84173
What is wrong with the Bible that Muslims feel it necessary to have a new scripture?
The Jews might like to ask this same - why Christianity when here already was Judaism. ;D
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AhmedGassama
11-03-2015, 07:08 PM
Scriptures change by people (politicians, rabbis...) who are seeking their own interests and ordinary people (like you me) get misguided, that's one of the reason God (Allah) send prophets, so he can show them the differences between the right and the wrong and also to show them the straight path and how they perform worship...

The prophet Mohamed is the last prophet, that's why God revealed to him the Quran which has and will never change.

islam tought us to respect other's beliefs and religion and we should never despise or insult different people, you're welcome bro :)
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Pygoscelis
11-03-2015, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Eric H
The same can be said for Judaism, Christianity and Islam, plus all other groups, how do we get on despite our differences?

And this goes beyond monotheism or even theism. I have also been here for about a decade, and I have also found the majority here to be friendly and helpful. There is no reason why we can't all join together despite religious differences in a brotherhood / sisterhood of humanity.
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Pygoscelis
11-03-2015, 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by sister herb
The Jews might like to ask this same - why Christianity when here already was Judaism. ;D
And why Judaism when there was already Zoroastrianism? ;D
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ajr
11-03-2015, 07:50 PM
Why is Islam right and Christianity wrong?!
Well firstly our fundamental belief system that draws us to Islam and place us under one brotherhood is Tauheed (Islamic Monotheism-Belief in One God) anything other than that is shirk (ascribing partners with God) hence the trinity 3 gods being one can’t work. All Prophets including Jesus called to Tawheed
Allah says in the Qur'an:
"He is the Lord of the heavens and the Earth and all that is in between them, so worship Him and be patient in His worship; do you know any equal to Him?" (19:65).
"Allah there is no God but He, the Living, the Everlasting. Slumber does not seize Him, neither sleep; to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and the Earth. Who is there that shall intercede with Him except by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they do not encompass anything of His knowledge except what He wills. His throne extends over the heavens and the Earth, the preservation of them does not burden Him; He is the High, the Great" (2:255).
Say, “The truth is that Allah is One. Allah is Besought of all, needing none. He neither begot anyone, nor was he begotten. And equal to Him has never been any one. #Quran 112

(Extract taken from Br. Ijaz Ahmad)
Deuteronomy 6:4 we read:
“Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” (TAUHEED)
“The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.” – Mark 12:29 (TAUHEED)
The Christian belief of God however is fundamentally different, because while Christianity regards God “one”, the Trinitarian doctrine regards God to be one in three persons. Hence the meaning of the Trinity can be broken down to mean, “Tri or Three (persons), United as One (God)”. As Muslims we disagree with this concept of God and that’s because the logic behind it is irrational.
We can start by defining God as an all knowing being, therefore He knows the past, present and future.
If God is all knowing and He learns something, it means that before He was not all knowing and He has now become all knowing, as His knowledge is now complete.
If God is all knowing and He forgets something or does not know something, then now He is not all knowing.
Both Muslims and Christians should agree with this reasoning, therefore if we were to see that God either increases or decreases in knowledge this would prove that such a being cannot be a God. Thus we read from the Bible in Genesis 6:6, “The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled”. This presents a problem. The only reason you can commit regret, is if you made a mistake and you can only make a mistake if you did not know the consequences of your actions. Therefore, as it is, the Christian concept of God, cannot be considered to be all knowing.

For something a bit clearer and to the point, let’s read Mark 13:32, which says, ““But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father”. This presents another problem, if Jesus was God and all knowing, He should know the hour. Some might say that this verse refers to the hypostatic union, that Jesus was both man and God, and this verses refers to his manly existence. The problem with this concept is that the verses specifies the Father alone is complete in knowledge and the Son is not, it is comparing the supreme nature of the Father in comparison to the other person in the Godhead, his Son. Why would this verse be comparing God’s divine nature with a man’s limited knowledge? If that were the case then it would not have needed to specify, ‘only the Father’, hence as it is presented the verse is referring to both the Holy/ Divine nature of the Father and the Son. It does this while completely failing to mention the knowledge of the Holy Spirit on this issue. Therefore if the three persons in the Godhead are fully God, then we should expect them to be co-equal (re: Nicean Creed), but since the Bible presents the case that only one of these three persons is complete in knowledge, then by logic, the other two persons cannot be God, since they are not all knowing.
Therefore it is not that we as Muslims are ignorant of the Christian beliefs which is why we disbelieve in your faith, but it is because we believe that these concepts of God which you hold, cannot be qualified and as aptly demonstrated, regresses into an erratic and inconsistent belief system.
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Insaanah
11-03-2015, 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by jas84173
What is wrong with the Bible that Muslims feel it necessary to have a new scripture?
It is not the case that suddenly someone appeared that said "I'm going to make up a new thing and call myself a Muslim, right let's have a new scripture". More on that later.

The scripture given to Jesus (peace be upon him) and the Torah, are no longer in their original forms. The current day Bible is mainly the words of men, some of whom never met Jesus, some of whom aren't even known. Christian beliefs deviated from what Jesus (peace be on him) preached.

The Qur'an is the last and final scripture of God, the very words revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) via the angel Gabriel. It's message is for the entire world, until the world ends. It is because Allah has promised to preserve the Qur'an that there won't be any need for a new Prophet, because the message is, and will remain, intact. Thus it is fully preserved with no word in it coming from any human. It is 100% the word of God, unlike the other scriptures that we have with us today, that have been changed by humans - thus it supersedes the previous scriptures, while being a continuation, confirmation and culmination of the original message contained within them, in its last and final form. The Final Testament. It has no versions or editions. Millions of people from all over the world have it memorised and they all recite word for word the same thing. It contains the central message as already described, and practical guidance on how to live, stories of previous prophets from which to learn lessons, warnings, rules, comfort, solace, good tidings, and in it God corrects misconceptions people may have about Him or His prophets. It tells us what has always been expected from humans since the beginning of time; what He told His prophets to teach people since the beginning. That message never changed. The essence of Islam is what always was, and has always been, the true and natural religion; the way of all the Prophets, the original and only message.

The Qur'an has been translated into nearly every language. These are regarded as translations of the Qur'an, but not as the Qur'an itself, which is in Arabic, and has rhythm and poetic beauty. Any preconceived notion that you might have of a book should be put aside. This book is completely unique in every way; its content, arrangement, style, authorship, preservation, and memorisability, amongst other things. The Prophet's practice and directives (the Sunnah), as taught to him by God, have also been recorded and preserved, and must be followed along with the Qur'an.

Originally Posted by jas84173
I have always been taught that Jesus is the son of God, and with the Holy Spirit God is three persons and one God. I never really understood it but it is scripture.
The reason you haven't understood it, is because it doesn't resonate with the heart, doesn't agree with humans naturally and doesn't make sense.

In Christianity, depending on who you ask, either 3=1 or 1=3. In Islam 1=1. The concepts are pure, clear, agree with the heart and mind and logic, and make sense. The Qur'an repeatedly asks people to ponder and reflect. in Islam:

There is only One God. He alone should be worshipped. He is our Creator, Sustainer, and Lord.

He does not beget, nor is He begotten. He has no sons, daughters, spouses, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any sort.

He is eternal and does not die. He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need.

There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, Incomparable, the Creator of the Universe.

He did not/does not, become flesh, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him. He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity. There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, nor any intermediaries. And no denying of God's existence either.

There are no sharers, associates, persons or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.

As you can see, the concept is clear, simple, logical, makes sense, and befits the Majesty of God. The proper name of God in Arabic is Allah.

Originally Posted by jas84173
How and why would the coming of Muhammad be necessary when the Bible was closed after Jesus came and spoke God's truth and died for our atonement and resurrected?
Allah has sent a succession of prophets to people throughout the ages, to convey His message to them, and with guidance to show people how He wants them to live and worship Him. Muslims believe in all the prophets Allah sent, and do not reject or blaspheme any of them, from Adam, to the last and final prophet, Muhammad, peace be on them all. They were the purest and noblest of humanity and were not divine in any way. Allah sent all the prophets with the same message and not different messages. The message was: to submit wholeheartedly to Allah and worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in, or parts to, His Exclusive Divinity, and to obey the prophet. They taught that people should be under no misperception that they can commit themselves to Allah as their Lord, and then combine this with accepting others as their Lord, or associating others in His Divinity, in whatever way. They taught that we should strive hard to translate our belief in the One True God into practice, by obeying Allah and the messengers He sent, who were also role models and examples for us, showing us practically how to put the guidance they were sent with into practice in our daily lives, explaining the scriptures, warning against wrong-doing, giving good tidings, and giving additional legislation from Allah.

So Islam is not a new faith, but is the same ultimate universal truth that God revealed to all the prophets, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be on them), and the same thing they all taught. Thus Islam is not named after a specific person (like Christianity, Buddhism), nor after a certain race or place (like Judaism, Hinduism), but is named by God Himself, the meaning loosely translating as 'submission to God', which is what every Prophet and their righteous followers did, from amongst all times, places and peoples. That in itself is one fraction of the evidence that it was the way of all the Prophets from the beginning.

With time, the message got forgotten or corrupted. So people started worshipping other gods along with Him, made idols, said that God begot a son, said that certain people were incarnations of God, some rejected belief in God altogether, while others elevated the status of some prophets to divine, or at the other end, rejected or blasphemed some of the prophets. Whenever God's message got distorted by people, or forgotten, a new messenger was sent, not with any new or changed message, but reinforcing the actual message that God sent all the messengers with, the actual core beliefs that people were taught from the beginning of humanity, confirming the true parts of previous teachings and scriptures, and correcting wrong beliefs and misconceptions that had crept in. God required that whenever He sent a new messenger, that messenger should be followed along with any new scripture given to him. This chain of messengers culminates in prophet Muhammad (peace on him), who is the last and final prophet and messenger. Since his prophethood, God's message is available unchanged and unadulterated, for the entire world, until the end of time. He wasn't sent as prophet and messenger for a specific group of people and specific time (e.g. as Moses and Jesus were to the Children of Israel), but he was sent for all the world, for all time, until the Day of Judgement. Thus he is the last, not first, prophet of Islam; a messenger to all mankind, for now, and for all time to come. He is the messenger who must now be followed.

The message didn't suddenly change when it came to Jesus (peace on him), nor did he rebel against God and claim divinity for himself. In the fifth chapter of the Qur'an there are the following verses, which foretell what Jesus (peace on him) will say when God, on the Day of Judgement, to illustrate to humankind, will ask Jesus whether he claimed divinity or said he should be worshipped:

"He [Jesus] will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen. I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness." (5:116-117)

died for our atonement and resurrected?
We are each responsible for and accountable for our own deeds, good or bad, and for the choices we make in life, each choice having a consequence. Nobody else is responsible for them or carries them away. No innocent person is made to suffer or die for other's sins. Babies are not born in a state of sin, but a state of innocence and purity. There is no concept of original sin, nor of God expecting perfection which cannot be achieved, nor of a broken relationship with God that requires reconciling, nor of ****ation requiring a saviour. Forgiveness is directly from God. Prayer is directly to God. God is the God of all, even of those who don't believe in Him.

In Islam, as Adam (peace be upon him) asked for forgiveness and was forgiven, so we too ask for Allah's forgiveness for our sins, as He loves for us to turn to Him in repentance, and loves forgiving. This forgiveness comes freely, just by Allah's will, when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent. Forgiveness does not require any type of sacrifice by God. Both Adam and Eve repented and were forgiven by their Merciful Lord; and indeed Adam was then chosen to be the first person to receive guidance from Allah, was honoured by Allah, and is counted among all the other Prophets of Islam. While guidance and the right way has been shown to us, we, as humans, have the freedom to choose, to err, and to repent sincerely, and should we do so, we will find Allah Forgiving. For all in the posterity of Adam, the door of returning to the right path is always open, prior to death.

With regards to salvation and sin, my understanding is that Christianity hinges on the fact, that according to Christians, God did not forgive Adam (peace be upon him) for eating from the tree, and that not only Adam but all subsequent generations have to bear a punishment from God, and fell out of grace with God, their relationship with God was severed, they are born into a state of sin, and death entered the world. They believe that God expects perfection from humans which humans can never achieve (partly because of the aforementioned sin), thus to atone for our imperfection and inability to meet God's expectation, and to reconcile people to God and repair the severed relationship, and to forgive (but in reality atone) people's sins, the sacrifice of an innocent perfect man (who also happens to be God) and his slow, bloody, and painful death, and thereafter resurrection, comes into play.

God forgave Adam (peace be upon him), and guided him, and has sent guidance for us all, and can forgive us all, freely, when we repent sincerely and ask sincerely, resolving not to repeat past mistakes, and does not expect perfection from us, but simply for us to worship Him alone without any associates, persons or parts to His Exclusive Divinity, and to not ascribe divinity to anybody or anything else, and to do our very best and try our very hardest with all our heart, body and soul, to love and obey Him and the messengers He sent. His Mercy opening the doors to salvation and paradise.

It is actually denigrating to God's Power that He should not be able to forgive or remove sins without begetting a son and then sacrificing the son. It ascribes imperfection to God. This is not forgiveness, but atonement. One thing pays the price for another. Perfection is being able to forgive, freely, abundantly, at will. That is perfection. Islam recognises God's power to forgive with just His Will. Some of the other religions seem to claim that forgiveness requires a purchase price and if we can't pay it, somebody else has to pay it on our behalf. In Islam, forgiveness comes without a purchase price or sacrifice. We do not/cannot: buy, sacrifice for, earn or steal it. It comes freely when we sincerely ask for forgiveness and truly repent, accepting God's will.
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Karl
11-03-2015, 10:58 PM
Why did Martin Luther pull away from the Roman Catholic Church? Because he believed it had been corrupted and had become more decadent than a pagan religion? Or he wanted to be important? Who really knows? Who can say why the prophets try and sway the people with their news from the angels? Very dangerous I would have thought. But they get support and a new religion is born. You believe your religion is right and Muslims believe their religion is right, so it is a stalemate. Only God knows the truth. But isn't worshipping a man as God a cult? It is the height of delusions of grandeur for a man to believe himself a god let alone the supreme deity, this is a sign of madness. Jesus PBUH was not mad, there must be a mistake in the translations. He had many followers and in those days saying you were God was a stoning offense. And remember the Israelites were religious fanatics and the Romans had to tread very carefully when dealing with them in diplomatic situations. So he must have been a prophet.
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eesa the kiwi
11-04-2015, 12:36 AM
read the quran for yourself bro
this is the best way to get an insight into islam
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Zafran
11-04-2015, 01:09 AM
salaam

I would say the big difference between Islam and Christianity would be the divinity of Jesus pbuh.
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greenhill
11-04-2015, 02:29 AM
As far as I see the reasons for the introduction of 'Books' as in the Psalms, Torah, Bible and the Quran was to incrementally guide human beings back towards the path of 'truth'.

I see most believe that the messages were the same but just got corrupted hence needed to be corrected with a new Book via a new prophet until the last prophet (Muhammad pbuh) where it (the Quran) is preserved until end of times.

....This day those who disbelieve have despaired of [defeating] your religion; so fear them not, but fear Me. This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. .... (Quran 5:3)

....which means that before that, the teachings were not as yet complete. If we were to really look at the messages of the Books with regards to the underlying messages given, we will find that there were incremental steps in developing faith which could not be done in a single step but needed time.

What were the incremental steps? For this we have to look at the Books and their primary message(s)

Psalms were essentially about salutations to the Lord
Torah the same but included human mechanics like 'doing unto others what you expect others to do unto you'.
The Bible added to that a 'higher' state of being by way of forgiveness (turning the other cheek) and
The Quran (with the concept of forgiveness) laid down the laws for living in a community which would not be possible without the acceptance of forgiveness.

Hence, in my opinion, it was not necessary for the previous Books to be preserved as long as the overall messages for human development was delivered to lay the foundations for the next message.

If you care to take into stock what is happening today you may see why the Books have become separate today. Moses (pbuh) amongst other things taught the Children of Israel not to deal with the charging of interest. They were not happy with this ruling. Between Moses and Jesus, the Children of Israel began altering their scriptures to 'allow' the practice. When Jesus came to remind them of this, they rejected Jesus (giving all kinds of reasons not specifically mentioning this) hence with the Jews rejecting Jesus, it became another branch of the Abrahamic religion. Again, when the Quran was sent (to unify the Jewish faith and Christianity) the Jews again rejected it due to the laws against interests.

Today, we live in a world where the Jews (via proxies) pretty much has the world indebted to them in one way or another and we are now living as slaves to the big institutions. Even countries are not free from this control. All this divide and wealth gaps could be said to be as a result of the failure of humans to accept the guidance of Allah.

:peace:
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sister herb
11-04-2015, 07:21 AM
Originally Posted by jas84173
What is wrong with the Bible that Muslims feel it necessary to have a new scripture?
By this your question you actually ask the wrong thing. People themselves didn´t create Islam but the God saw it´s necessary to give the same message to the humankind again, what He had gave also before. Why it´s not same like what the Bible tells? We have to think that message what comes directly from the God (as we say Allah) must to be more accurate and truer than some old version, which have changed by the people whose have written it down.

By this as following teachings of Islam, we just follow the will of the God.
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saif-uddin
11-04-2015, 09:49 AM
What is wrong with Christianity?

A lot...

1. The belief is pagan, 1 in 3 and 3 in 1 God makes zero sense,

Utter self contradictory nonsensical attempt to justify a pagan concept of God.

2. The Bible was never preached by Jesus.

The Bible is a collection of 66 or 73 books depending on Catholics or Protestants

3. The Bible attributes to God all mighty and his messengers/prophets filth of the highest order including genocide, adultery, incest and infanticide
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saif-uddin
11-04-2015, 09:50 AM
The Bible also fails in its own falsification tests

The Bible also contains tonnes of contradictions and absurdities

It also attributes weaknesses to God All mighty

The above is more than sufficient to show that the Christianity is manade religion.

Note also nowhere in the Bible does God ever say he revealed Christianity as a religion for mankind.

The same for Judaism, both concocted religions.

All of the prophets preached Submission to God All mighty alone,

None preached a religion named after any place or person.

Again this can be proven by the Bible itself
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