Can I follow the Old Testament in Islam?

[fschmidt]

I grew up atheist and later studied various religious texts and the Old Testament is my favorite. I have nothing against the Quran, but the Old Testament is simply my favorite and so I follow it.

I would like to join an existing religion. The reason is that I find modern culture to be evil and hostile, and I would like to associate with people who share at least some of my values. So let me consider the options.

Most people believe that Jews follow the Old Testament, but this is simply wrong. Today's Jews follow the Talmud which twists the Old Testament beyond recognition. A simple example is the prohibition of mixing meat and milk which can't be found in the Old Testament anywhere. But worse is the racism of Judaism which has no basis in the Old Testament. The religion of modern Judaism not only isn't based on the Old Testament but strongly conflicts with it, making it unworkable for me.

Some traditional Christian groups like the Puritans followed the moral ideas of the Old Testament. But most modern Christians reject the whole idea of moral law, which is horrifying to me. In my opinion, Christianity violates the Old Testament idea of "God is one" by making Jesus into a god. The basic principle of Christianity is accepting Jesus as a god, and this is something I could never do.

I know that the Old Testament is not part of Islam, but what little I know about Islam seems to be based on the same moral principles that the Old Testament stands for. When considering the Shahada "There is no god but God and that Muhammad is His messenger" I see 2 parts. The first part is the same as "God is one" in the Old Testament, so that certainly works for me. And for the second part, though I cannot judge the Quran myself, I also cannot deny that Muhammad has had a huge impact on the world and introduced God to many people, and I consider this to be good enough evidence that Muhammad is God's messenger. So I would have no problem saying the Shahada.

But even if I said the Shahada, my primary dedication would be to the Old Testament which I love. What would change is that I would consider muslims to be my people and I would give charity to them. And I would follow islamic rules within reason, especially in public. But I would still follow the Ten Commandments and keep the sabbath and study the Old Testament, not the Quran. So my question simply is, would this work?

[shafat10]

Hello there sir. Thank you for your question.

I would like to help you out with some prerequisite information that you need to know.

Firstly, many people have a misconception that Islam is a new religion and that Prophet Muhammad PBUH was the founder of this religion. In fact, that's not true. Islam isn't a new religion. Islam came in to existence since men set foot on the first, since time immemorial. And Prophet Muhammad PBUH isn't the founder of Islam, but he is the last Messenger of God.
Through time God has sent many Prophets and all Prophets' message was the same, to believe in one God, do not do idol worship, He has no partner and so on. But since God didn't find it fit to preserve those scriptures, hence he kept on sending new Messengers. But since Quran is the last and final revelation of God, hence it's not meant only for the Muslims or the Arabs, but it's meant for the whole of humanity and the message is to be followed till eternity.
If there's is something like old and new testament, then the Quran is the last and final testament.
If you do a comparative study, myself being a student of Comparative Religion, you will come to know that all books contains the same message, that believe in 1 God, believe He has no idols, worship Him alone and there is a last and final Messenger going to come. This was the message of all the books. You want to follow the old testament right? Great! If you really want to do that, then you need to follow Islam. Why? I will explain now. Read these please:
The following verse from the book of Deuteronomy contains an exhortation from Moses (pbuh):

"Shama Israelu Adonai Ila Hayno Adna Ikhad"

It is a Hebrew quotation which means:

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord"
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4]

The following verses are from the Book of Isaiah:

(ii) "I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour."
[The Bible, Isaiah 43:11]

(iii) "I am Lord, and there is none else There is no God besides me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 45 : 5]

(iv) "I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me."
[The Bible, Isaiah 46:9]

(v) Judaism condemns idol worship in the following verses:

"Thou shalt have no other gods before me."

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Exodus 20:3-5]

(iv) A similar message is repeated in the book of Deuteronomy:

"Thou shalt have none other gods before me."

"Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that in the earth beneath, or that is in the water beneath the earth."

"Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them; for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God."
[The Bible, Deuteronomy 5:7-9]

In Judaism too, we find the same thread of monotheism, that is seen in other religions.

I hope that clarifies the God part.
So if you follow the old testament, then you automatically have to follow the Quran.

Now for Prophet Muhammad PBUH,


In Judaism too, we find the same thread of monotheism, that is seen in other religions.

(III) MUHAMMAD IN JEWISH SCRIPTURES (THE OLD TESTAMENT):

1) Muhammad (pbuh) prophesised in the book of Deuteronomy:

a) God Almighty speaks to Moses in Book of Deuteronomy chapter 18 verse 18:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

b) Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is like Moses (pbuh):

i) Both had a father and a mother.

ii) Both were married and had children.

iii) Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime.

iv) Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment.

v) Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people.

vi) Both died a natural death.

c) Muhammad (pbuh) is from among the brethren of Moses (pbuh). Arabs are brethren of Jews. Abraham (pbuh) had two sons:

Ishmail and Isaac. The Arabs are the descendants of Ishmail (pbuh) and the Jews are the descendants of Isaac (pbuh).

d) Words in the mouth:

Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was unlettered and whatever revelations he received from God Almighty he repeated it verbatim.

Deuteronomy (18:18):

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

2) Muhammad (pbuh) is prophesised in the book of Isaiah:

It is mentioned in the book of Isaiah chapter 29 verse 12:

"And the book is delivered to him that is not learned saying, ‘Read this, I pray thee’; and he saith, ‘I am not learned’.

"When Archangel Gabriel commanded Muhammad (pbuh) by saying ‘Iqra’, he replied "I am not learned".

3) Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is mentioned by name in the Song of Solomon

chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh wa Zehrace Bayna Jerusalem."

"His mouth is most sweet: ye, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughter of Jerusalem."

All the prophecies mentioned in the Old Testament regarding Muhammad (pbuh) besides applying to the Jews also hold good for the Christians (H Q. 61:6)

So after all these proofs brother, you have no excuse but to follow the last and final testament, the glorious Quran :).

If you have a mobile, Nokia 1100 and Samsung Galaxy S6, which one will you use? Modern one of course.
So similarly, the Quran is the latest version of message from God.
I hope this helps. Any doubts feel free to ask.

[Karl]

"Can I follow the Old Testament in Islam?" No. If you follow the Torah then you would have to become Jewish. I don't know why you think the Talmud is wrong but the Torah right, they are so old both could be corrupted, who knows? There are many sects of Jews out there to choose from too, so you will find like minded people. But the Quran is better for it's simplicity. It's a book for all the people not just the religious scholars. The simple most straight forward way is usually the best way.

[Abz2000]

Muhsin khan translation:
nd We sent not (as Our Messengers) before you (O Muhammad SAW) any but men, whom We inspired, (to preach and invite mankind to believe in the Oneness of Allah). So ask of those who know the Scripture [learned men of the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)], if you know not.

With clear signs and Books (We sent the Messengers). And We have also sent down unto you (O Muhammad SAW) the reminder and the advice (the Qur'an), that you may explain clearly to men what is sent down to them, and that they may give thought.

Quran 16:43-44

If you mean, which laws should i follow, then it's obviously the Quran:

Those who follow the Messenger, the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e.Muhammad SAW) whom they find written with them in the Taurat (Torah) (Deut, xviii, 15) and the Injeel (Gospel) (John xiv, 16), - he commands them for Al-Ma'ruf (i.e. Islamic Monotheism and all that Islam has ordained); and forbids them from Al-Munkar (i.e. disbelief, polytheism of all kinds, and all that Islam has forbidden); he allows them as lawful At-Taiyibat [(i.e. all good and lawful) as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.], and prohibits them as unlawful Al- Khaba'ith (i.e. all evil and unlawful as regards things, deeds, beliefs, persons, foods, etc.), he releases them from their heavy burdens (of Allah's Covenant), and from the fetters (bindings) that were upon them. So those who believe in him (Muhammad SAW), honour him, help him, and follow the light (the Qur'an) which has been sent down with him, it is they who will be successful.

Say (O Muhammad SAW): "O mankind! Verily, I am sent to you all as the Messenger of Allah - to Whom belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth. La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He); It is He Who gives life and causes death. So believe in Allah and His Messenger (Muhammad SAW), the Prophet who can neither read nor write (i.e. Muhammad SAW) who believes in Allah and His Words [(this Qur'an), the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel) and also Allah's Word: "Be!" - and he was, i.e. 'Iesa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Mary)], and follow him so that you may be guided."
Quran 7:157-158

If you mean, can i refer to the previous scripture to understand what is (written/remains written bearing in mind possible edits) about a reference to the details of a Prophet which are touched upon but not detailed such as jonah pbuh or can i refer to it to ponder upon or analyze a certain ruling and how it was approached by the previous nations, such as the meats they avoided, then you'll increase in knowledge, bear in mind however that certain rulings have been updated and some were just pushed on them due to their incessant questioning when unnecessary:

And unto those who are Jews, We forbade every (animal) with undivided hoof, and We forbade them the fat of the ox and the sheep except what adheres to their backs or their entrails, or is mixed up with a bone. Thus We recompensed them for their rebellion [committing crimes like murdering the Prophets, eating of Riba (usury), etc.]. And verily, We are Truthful.
Quran 6:146

Those among the Children of Israel who disbelieved were cursed by the tongue of Dawud (David) and 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary). That was because they disobeyed (Allah and the Messengers) and were ever transgressing beyond bounds.
Quran 5:178

Bear in mind that it is recorded that the final messenger pbuh forbade the Muslims from intensively studying doctrines of other scriptures until they were firmly grounded in knowledge, once he had trained them and tempered them on the rulings and guidance of the final message he pbuh allowed them to delve further, by then they were mature and able to take on more challenging topics.

Below is a link to an article on the topic and science which you may find to be of much interest, the author does appear to have a particular disdain of over-immersion in the previous texts however he provides many hadith and references to scholarly opinions on the topic:



Here are some excerpts:
The Legislator only permitted narrating from them in his statement,*‘Relate from the Children of Isra’il, and there is no sin in that,’*concerning that which the intellect can conceive, but as for what the intellects find to be impossible, and it is deemed falsehood, and it is fairly obvious that it is a forgery – then it is not included in that.

https://islamicsciences.wordpress.co...-shakirs-view/

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[BlueOwl358]

I can't say much because I don't see much that I can speak of. You say you accept the Old Testament as the best scripture, but not why or how you came to this conclusion. You say you can accept Mohammad (pbuh) as a prophet, but not the revelation given to him, but not why or how to do this.

You are creating your own niches in different religions, expecting to fit in them because of small similarities, but religions are traditions that you must accept, and not just have a problem with saying their biggest declarations or having the same values. There were Jews at the time of the Prophet (pbuh) who accepted that he must be a prophet, but not his message, so they remained with their faith. There must of versions of Judaism that accept only the Old Testament as biblical canon. You would be more similar to such a person, rather than Muslims, because you would not be accepting their revelation, but something else. I simply cannot see the sense in this story.

I advise you to read the Quran and then judge it for yourself, since it seems that you have not yet done so, and then compare the two, because the Islamic faith accepts the Torah as an earlier revelation, but not currently pure enough to accommodate our needs, and thus we have a new revelation. If you only only the Shahadah, and not the faith itself, then you can't be a proper Muslim, and your declaration would not be properly accepted by anyone. You can't simply pick favorites and wander into a blacksmith shop while reading a merchant book, just because the blacksmith believes in trade and selling of goods.

"Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah, and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people, but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers." (Quran 5:44)

"And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ." (Quran 5:48)

[Insaanah]

I know that the Old Testament is not part of Islam, but what little I know about Islam seems to be based on the same moral principles that the Old Testament stands for. When considering the Shahada "There is no god but God and that Muhammad is His messenger" I see 2 parts. The first part is the same as "God is one" in the Old Testament, so that certainly works for me. And for the second part, though I cannot judge the Quran myself, I also cannot deny that Muhammad has had a huge impact on the world and introduced God to many people, and I consider this to be good enough evidence that Muhammad is God's messenger. So I would have no problem saying the Shahada.

But even if I said the Shahada, my primary dedication would be to the Old Testament which I love. What would change is that I would consider muslims to be my people and I would give charity to them. And I would follow islamic rules within reason, especially in public. But I would still follow the Ten Commandments and keep the sabbath and study the Old Testament, not the Quran. So my question simply is, would this work?

In a nutshell, no. But please note, that the Qur'an confirms the truth of what came before in the previous scriptures originally sent by God. You will be closer to them by following the Qur'an, than you will ever be by following a book that has been tampered with by men.

The old testament is obsolete. It is has been changed and corrupted by the hands of men. It contains false accusations against noble prophets of God - accusations such as incest against Lot (peace be on him), accusations of drunkenness against Noah (peace be on him), and adultery against David (peace be on him), inserted by unscrupulous humans. Such a book is no longer fit to be followed, and indeed now has been superceded by the Qur'an, which is the last and final scripture of God, the very words revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) via the angel Gabriel (peace be on him). It's message is for the entire world, until the world ends. It is because Allah has promised to preserve the Qur'an that there won't be any need for a new Prophet, because the message is, and will remain, intact. Thus it is fully preserved with no word in it coming from any human. It is 100% the word of God, unlike the other scriptures that we have with us today, that have been changed by humans - thus it supersedes the previous scriptures, while being a continuation, confirmation and culmination of the original message contained within them, in its last and final form. The Final Testament. It has no versions or editions. Millions of people from all over the world have it memorised and they all recite word for word the same thing. It contains the central message that God sent all the previous prophets with, and practical guidance on how to live, stories of previous prophets from which to learn lessons, warnings, rules, comfort, solace, good tidings, and in it God corrects misconceptions people may have about Him or His prophets. It tells us what has always been expected from humans since the beginning of time; what He told His prophets to teach people since the beginning. That message never changed. The essence of Islam is what always was, and has always been, the true and natural religion; the way of all the Prophets, the original and only message.

The prophets were sent by God to people throughout the ages, to convey His message to them, and with guidance to show people how He wants them to live and worship Him. Muslims believe in all the prophets Allah sent, and do not reject or blaspheme any of them, from Adam, to the last and final prophet, Muhammad, peace be on them all. They were the purest and noblest of humanity and were not divine in any way. Allah sent all the prophets with the same message and not different messages. The message was: to submit wholeheartedly to Allah and worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in, or parts to, His Exclusive Divinity, and to obey the prophet. They taught that people should be under no misperception that they can commit themselves to Allah as their Lord, and then combine this with accepting others as their Lord, or associating others in His Divinity, in whatever way. They taught that we should strive hard to translate our belief in the One True God into practice, by obeying Allah and the messengers He sent, who were also role models and examples for us, showing us practically how to put the guidance they were sent with into practice in our daily lives, explaining the scriptures, warning against wrong-doing, giving good tidings, and giving additional legislation from Allah.

The Qur'an has been translated into nearly every language. These are regarded as translations of the Qur'an, but not as the Qur'an itself, which is in Arabic, and has rhythm and poetic beauty. Any preconceived notion that you might have of a book should be put aside. This book is completely unique in every way; its content, arrangement, style, authorship, preservation, and memorisability, amongst other things. The Prophet's practice and directives (the Sunnah), as taught to him by God, have also been recorded and preserved, and must be followed along with the Qur'an.

So Islam is not a new faith, but is the same ultimate universal truth that God revealed to all the prophets, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be on them), and the same thing they all taught. Thus Islam is not named after a specific person (like Christianity, Buddhism), nor after a certain race or place (like Judaism, Hinduism), but is named by God Himself, the meaning loosely translating as 'submission to God', which is what every Prophet and their righteous followers did, from amongst all times, places and peoples. That in itself is one fraction of the evidence that it was the way of all the Prophets from the beginning.

With time, the message got forgotten or corrupted. So people started worshipping other gods along with Him, made idols, said that God begot a son, said that certain people were incarnations of God, some rejected belief in God altogether, while others elevated the status of some prophets to divine, or at the other end, rejected or blasphemed some of the prophets. Whenever God's message got distorted by people, or forgotten, a new messenger was sent, not with any new or changed message, but reinforcing the actual message that God sent all the messengers with, the actual core beliefs that people were taught from the beginning of humanity, confirming the true parts of previous teachings and scriptures, and correcting wrong beliefs and misconceptions that had crept in. God required that whenever He sent a new messenger, that messenger should be followed along with any new scripture given to him. This chain of messengers culminates in prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be on him), who is the last and final prophet and messenger. Since his prophethood, God's message is available unchanged and unadulterated, for the entire world, until the end of time. He wasn't sent as prophet and messenger for a specific group of people and specific time (e.g. as Moses and Jesus, peace be on them both, were to the Children of Israel), but he was sent for all the world, for all time, until the Day of Judgement. Thus he is the last, not first, prophet of Islam; a messenger to all mankind, for now, and for all time to come. He is the messenger who must now be followed, and the scripture given to him, the Qur'an, must be followed.

When considering the Shahada "There is no god but God and that Muhammad is His messenger" I see 2 parts. The first part is the same as "God is one" in the Old Testament, so that certainly works for me.

If you say you have no problem believing and accepting God, yet you reject the scripture He has sent, reject His words, His guidance, His instruction, preferring to follow what has now been corrupted by the hands of men, then the question arises, how much of an acceptance is that?

I have nothing against the Quran

Follow it then. It confirms the truth of what came before in the previous scriptures originally sent by God. You will be closer to them by following the Qur'an, than you will ever be by following a book that has been tampered with by men.

Peace.

[fschmidt]

I know more about Islam now than when I started this thread. I have read several books about Islam, read parts of the Quran, and I now attend my local Islamic Center every Friday evening. And at this point I see no reason why one can't follow the Old Testament in Islam.

It is human nature to be closed minded, to say "my way is the only way". But just because Muslims today ignore the Old Testament doesn't make following the Old Testament prohibited. I can find nothing in the Quran that prohibits following the Old Testament.

You may ask why I would do both. I follow the Old Testament because that is what inspires me. I am not inspired by the Quran. Without the Old Testament, I would be an atheist. So then why would I also follow the Quran? Because I know that while the Quran doesn't inspire me, it inspires many more people than the Old Testament does. I want to be among people who are inspired to do God's will even if the source of that inspiration is different from mine. And I am quite willing to follow the requirements of the Quran for this benefit.

I am still not sure what I want to do, but I wanted to post this here for feedback. If I become more serious about this, I will discuss it with the leaders of my local Islamic Center. I also see that several people here have answered "no" to my question, but none provided good evidence for their position.

[talibilm]

I know more about Islam now than when I started this thread. I have read several books about Islam, read parts of the Quran, and I now attend my local Islamic Center every Friday evening. And at this point I see no reason why one can't follow the Old Testament in Islam.

It is human nature to be closed minded, to say "my way is the only way". But just because Muslims today ignore the Old Testament doesn't make following the Old Testament prohibited. I can find nothing in the Quran that prohibits following the Old Testament.

You may ask why I would do both. I follow the Old Testament because that is what inspires me. I am not inspired by the Quran. Without the Old Testament, I would be an atheist. So then why would I also follow the Quran? Because I know that while the Quran doesn't inspire me, it inspires many more people than the Old Testament does. I want to be among people who are inspired to do God's will even if the source of that inspiration is different from mine. And I am quite willing to follow the requirements of the Quran for this benefit.

I am still not sure what I want to do, but I wanted to post this here for feedback. If I become more serious about this, I will discuss it with the leaders of my local Islamic Center. I also see that several people here have answered "no" to my question, but none provided good evidence for their position.

Are you going to follow this ?

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...+Old+Testament

[talibilm]

I grew up atheist and later studied various religious texts and the Old Testament is my favorite. I have nothing against the Quran, but the Old Testament is simply my favorite and so I follow it.

I would like to join an existing religion. The reason is that I find modern culture to be evil and hostile, and I would like to associate with people who share at least some of my values. So let me consider the options.

Most people believe that Jews follow the Old Testament, but this is simply wrong. Today's Jews follow the Talmud which twists the Old Testament beyond recognition. A simple example is the prohibition of mixing meat and milk which can't be found in the Old Testament anywhere. But worse is the racism of Judaism which has no basis in the Old Testament. The religion of modern Judaism not only isn't based on the Old Testament but strongly conflicts with it, making it unworkable for me.

Some traditional Christian groups like the Puritans followed the moral ideas of the Old Testament. But most modern Christians reject the whole idea of moral law, which is horrifying to me. In my opinion, Christianity violates the Old Testament idea of "God is one" by making Jesus into a god. The basic principle of Christianity is accepting Jesus as a god, and this is something I could never do.

I know that the Old Testament is not part of Islam, but what little I know about Islam seems to be based on the same moral principles that the Old Testament stands for. When considering the Shahada "There is no god but God and that Muhammad is His messenger" I see 2 parts. The first part is the same as "God is one" in the Old Testament, so that certainly works for me. And for the second part, though I cannot judge the Quran myself, I also cannot deny that Muhammad has had a huge impact on the world and introduced God to many people, and I consider this to be good enough evidence that Muhammad is God's messenger. So I would have no problem saying the Shahada.

But even if I said the Shahada, my primary dedication would be to the Old Testament which I love. What would change is that I would consider muslims to be my people and I would give charity to them. And I would follow islamic rules within reason, especially in public. But I would still follow the Ten Commandments and keep the sabbath and study the Old Testament, not the Quran. So my question simply is, would this work?

To become a good servant its important that the Servant LISTENS & IMPLEMENTS the orders and wishes of his Lord. there is a best example from Prophet Muhammad :saws: as Allah says and one very good example among many 100's of example is the the Prophet:saws: abiding to pray his salah towards Jerusalem as ordered by Allah though he liked & wished in his heart to pray towards the first Masjid on the Earth, The Kaaba built by his real fore father the most revered by All semitic religions Prophet Ibrahim ( Abraham ) untill many years when the permission was finally given after a period in Medina as seen in this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDekSGAQRR4

This was a big test for him though Prophet was fair in his wish as kaaba deserved it more than Al Aqsa as Kabba was bulit by the forefather of Israel ( Jacob) ie Abraham - Ibrahim A.S (The covenant receiver of Chosen people for jews as claimed by the Jews ) before Al Aqsa at Jerusalem and also even was built even before the floods of Noah by Angels is come to known by hadiths.


So religion is not to do what we wish but to submit to the wish of our Creator Allah in all walks of life and submit to him which is the precise meaning of Islam. http://legacy.quran.com/3/83-85

[fschmidt]

Are you going to follow this ?

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...+Old+Testament

Thank you for giving me an opportunity to defend the Old Testament.

Deuteronomy 23:1 "No one who is emasculated or has his male organ cut off shall enter the assembly of the LORD" - This was aimed at eunuchs of that time, but could probably also apply to modern transsexuals. It certainly doesn't apply to testicular cancer.

Timothy 2:11 - New Testament

Deuteronomy 23:2 "No one of illegitimate birth may enter the LORD's assembly" - Illegitimacy is a very serious offense, it completely destroys society. The Old Testament recognizes and rightly warns against it. Children should only be born in marriage.

Deuteronomy 25:11-12 - This is an odd one that I don't really understand. But really, how often are women going to grab her husband's enemy's crotch? It just doesn't seem very applicable.

Mark 12:19 - New Testament

Deuteronomy 22:20-21 - Misrepresenting virginity is a very serious offense, and the harshest punishment is justified. All successful cultures in history have placed a high value on virginity.

Leviticus 12:5 - The idea of "unclean" here isn't "dirty" but rather to not have sex for some time after birth. I don't see anything wrong with this.

[talibilm]

Friend, I have already answered you at Ummah in post # 31 here http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...+old+testament


So if you want Piety with your Creator you have to follow his last orders, The Noble Quran Or if you want to follow your own wishes and its upto you. We have duty to remind you and show you

Bukhari :: Book 9 :: Volume 92 :: Hadith 461

Narrated Ubaidullah:
Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the Latestt? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!"

Noble Quran 2:256 '' There shall be no compulsion in [acceptance of] the religion. The right course has become clear from the wrong. So whoever disbelieves in Taghut and believes in Allah has grasped the most trustworthy handhold with no break in it. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing. ''


Noble Quran 3:85 '' If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).''

[fromelsewhere]

@fschmidt , everybody here is telling you (rightfully) that there is no Torah in Islam. One follows the Qur'an in Islam. It's as simple as that. If you like the Torah but not the Talmud, then you are close to a sect in Judaism that is called "karaism". Ultimately, you have to decide which holy text you would like to follow. Following one or the other doesn't prevent you from having respect for the other religion. There are pros and cons to each religion. Good luck in making your choice.

[talibilm]

Certain clarifications AFAIK

Most people believe that Jews follow the Old Testament, but this is simply wrong. Today's Jews follow the Talmud which twists the Old Testament beyond recognition. A simple example is the prohibition of mixing meat and milk which can't be found in the Old Testament anywhere. But worse is the racism of Judaism which has no basis in the Old Testament. The religion of modern Judaism not only isn't based on the Old Testament but strongly conflicts with it, making it unworkable for me.

Talmud was the alteration of Psalms ie Zaboor of Prophet Dawud or David A,S (Pbuh) which the Jews did and were accustomed to do as claimed in the Noble Quran.

Some traditional Christian groups like the Puritans followed the moral ideas of the Old Testament. But most modern Christians reject the whole idea of moral law, which is horrifying to me. In my opinion, Christianity violates the Old Testament idea of "God is one" by making Jesus into a god. The basic principle of Christianity is accepting Jesus as a god, and this is something I could never do.

Agreed here no wonder many Jewish sites classify Trintarian Christians as Polytheists

I know that the Old Testament is not part of Islam,

This is partly wrong we have to believe it came from the Same source , Allah , our Creator & not believing it a Muslim becomes a Kafir (A rejector of Articles of Faith) but we could not believe more than what it coincides with the Noble Quran. so for details see the post no # 1 on verse 10:94 here

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...y-Apologetics&

but what little I know about Islam seems to be based on the same moral principles that the Old Testament stands for. When considering the Shahada "There is no god but God and that Muhammad is His messenger" I see 2 parts. The first part is the same as "God is one" in the Old Testament, so that certainly works for me. And for the second part, though I cannot judge the Quran myself, I also cannot deny that Muhammad has had a huge impact on the world and introduced God to many people, and I consider this to be good enough evidence that Muhammad is God's messenger. So I would have no problem saying the Shahada.

But even if I said the Shahada, my primary dedication would be to the Old Testament which I love. What would change is that I would consider muslims to be my people and I would give charity to them. And I would follow islamic rules within reason, especially in public. But I would still follow the Ten Commandments and keep the sabbath and study the Old Testament, not the Quran. So my question simply is, would this work?

While Noble Quran arrived many of the Jews were on the same path of the Christians taking Ezra as the son of God. But they recouped BACK to Monotheism when the Noble Quran exposed this error and also they frequently fought with Christians blaming that they had copied their books ( NT ) from them (jews) & also regularly blasphemed Mary & his son (May Allah forgive ) with but they were calmed after the Testimony of the Noble Quran that Jesus was indeed the Messiah and was miraculously born to Virgin & Chaste Mary and offered better terms to the Christians and you both called your books as the OLD & NEW testaments and your quarrels receded.

This thread could elaborate my analogy of our books including Torah & Injeel ( The OT & NT) in post # 2 & 25

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...replaced+allah


Noble Quran 3:84 ''Say, "We have believed in Allah and in what was revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and the Descendants, and in what was given to Moses and Jesus and to the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and we are Muslims [submitting] to Him."

[azc]

No, brother, now Only Quran is to be followed.

[*charisma*]

I know more about Islam now than when I started this thread. I have read several books about Islam, read parts of the Quran, and I now attend my local Islamic Center every Friday evening. And at this point I see no reason why one can't follow the Old Testament in Islam.

It is human nature to be closed minded, to say "my way is the only way". But just because Muslims today ignore the Old Testament doesn't make following the Old Testament prohibited. I can find nothing in the Quran that prohibits following the Old Testament.

You may ask why I would do both. I follow the Old Testament because that is what inspires me. I am not inspired by the Quran. Without the Old Testament, I would be an atheist. So then why would I also follow the Quran? Because I know that while the Quran doesn't inspire me, it inspires many more people than the Old Testament does. I want to be among people who are inspired to do God's will even if the source of that inspiration is different from mine. And I am quite willing to follow the requirements of the Quran for this benefit.

I am still not sure what I want to do, but I wanted to post this here for feedback. If I become more serious about this, I will discuss it with the leaders of my local Islamic Center. I also see that several people here have answered "no" to my question, but none provided good evidence for their position.

From your first post, you are by definition a muslim. I mean since you believe in the shahada.

Now in regards to the old testament, I can understand that you'd want to follow that because perhaps you connect with it more and are a lot more familiar with it. I want to point out though that the 10 commandments in the old testament are also teachings in Islam. My suggestion is to compare and contrast the two because essentially if they have the same teachings then maybe you can start having more of a connection with Islam knowing that it's not that far off from what you already believe in. The only issue with following the old testament is believing in that which contradicts with the quran. For example, from my knowledge (and I personally can't say I know much about the old testament) the prophets the old testament are portrayed as sinful (such as being adulterators, magicians, etc.), whereas in Islam the prophets are sinless. So then you'd have to ask yourself which is closer to your beliefs? If it's the latter, then perhaps that's pointing you towards the teachings of the Quran more, and you should just start studying that.

Now for any beginner when it comes to learning Quran, it can sometimes be a bit difficult to understand because not everything is linear as it is in the bible. For example, Genesis explains how GOd created the world by detailing consecutive events, whereas in the Quran, the verses are organized a bit differently. So I can see how if you've only read a part of the quran, you can lose some connection, whereas the bible can get straight to the point and lay it out in a story-like form. Therefore, I think something that can prove to be a great starting point is Ibn Kathir's Stories of the Prophets. Here's a pdf version of it: http://www.islamguiden.com/arkiv/sto...e_prophets.pdf

If you read through this, you'll probably have a clearer idea of what your beliefs really coincide with.

[aaj]

I know more about Islam now than when I started this thread. I have read several books about Islam, read parts of the Quran, and I now attend my local Islamic Center every Friday evening. And at this point I see no reason why one can't follow the Old Testament in Islam.

It is human nature to be closed minded, to say "my way is the only way". But just because Muslims today ignore the Old Testament doesn't make following the Old Testament prohibited. I can find nothing in the Quran that prohibits following the Old Testament.

If you are looking for associating with a group then any group is fine. But if you are looking for the truth then you won't find it in the old books, but rather in the most updated Testament, the Quran.

The Torah and Gospel were originally from Allah, may He be exalted, and we are obliged to believe in them because Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):


“Say (O Muslims), ‘We believe in Allah and that which has been sent down to us and that which has been sent down to Ibraaheem (Abraham), Ismaa‘eel (Ishmael), Ishaaq (Isaac), Ya‘qoob (Jacob), and to Al-Asbaat (the twelve sons of Ya‘qoob (Jacob)), and that which has been given to Moosa (Moses) and ‘Eesa (Jesus), and that which has been given to the Prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and to Him we have submitted (in Islam)’”


But the Torah and Gospel were subjected to distortion and changes. Allah, may He be exalted, says (interpretation of the meaning):


“Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and then say, "This is from Allah," to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for that they earn thereby” [al-Baqarah 2:79].



Because of this distortion and the mixing of truth with falsehood in these two Scriptures, it is prohibited to study them.

It was narrated from Jaabir ibn ‘Abdullah (may Allah be pleased with him) that ‘Umar ibn al-Khattaab (may Allah be pleased with him) came to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) with some written material he had got from one of the people of the Book. He read it to the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him), and he got angry and said: “Are you confused (about your religion), O son of al-Khattaab? By the One in Whose hand is my soul, I have brought it (the message of Islam) to you clear and pure. Do not ask them about anything, lest they tell you something true and you disbelieve it, or they tell you something false and you believe it. By the One in Whose hand is my soul, if Musa (Moses) were alive, he would have no option but to follow me.”

https://islamqa.info/en/209007

[goodwill]

I grew up atheist and later studied various religious texts and the Old Testament is my favorite. I have nothing against the Quran, but the Old Testament is simply my favorite and so I follow it.

I would like to join an existing religion. The reason is that I find modern culture to be evil and hostile, and I would like to associate with people who share at least some of my values. So let me consider the options.

Most people believe that Jews follow the Old Testament, but this is simply wrong. Today's Jews follow the Talmud which twists the Old Testament beyond recognition. A simple example is the prohibition of mixing meat and milk which can't be found in the Old Testament anywhere. But worse is the racism of Judaism which has no basis in the Old Testament. The religion of modern Judaism not only isn't based on the Old Testament but strongly conflicts with it, making it unworkable for me.

Some traditional Christian groups like the Puritans followed the moral ideas of the Old Testament. But most modern Christians reject the whole idea of moral law, which is horrifying to me. In my opinion, Christianity violates the Old Testament idea of "God is one" by making Jesus into a god. The basic principle of Christianity is accepting Jesus as a god, and this is something I could never do.

I know that the Old Testament is not part of Islam, but what little I know about Islam seems to be based on the same moral principles that the Old Testament stands for. When considering the Shahada "There is no god but God and that Muhammad is His messenger" I see 2 parts. The first part is the same as "God is one" in the Old Testament, so that certainly works for me. And for the second part, though I cannot judge the Quran myself, I also cannot deny that Muhammad has had a huge impact on the world and introduced God to many people, and I consider this to be good enough evidence that Muhammad is God's messenger. So I would have no problem saying the Shahada.

But even if I said the Shahada, my primary dedication would be to the Old Testament which I love. What would change is that I would consider muslims to be my people and I would give charity to them. And I would follow islamic rules within reason, especially in public. But I would still follow the Ten Commandments and keep the sabbath and study the Old Testament, not the Quran. So my question simply is, would this work?

Would you say that part of following the Old Testament involves recognizing the Messiah predicted in its pages?

[fschmidt]

Would you say that part of following the Old Testament involves recognizing the Messiah predicted in its pages?

No. I have looked at the passages that Christians always point to, and in Hebrew it is clear that they are misinterpreting these passages.

[goodwill]

No. I have looked at the passages that Christians always point to, and in Hebrew it is clear that they are misinterpreting these passages.

Do you believe that Muslims also misinterpret the Hebrew Scriptures since they agree with Christians that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah?

[greenhill]

I have learnt that since Adam pbuh, Allah has sent down messengers to people to remind them of the messages. Most messengers would repeat the messages of the previous one(s) and at certain points, incremental points were delivered as and when human 'maturity' was able to accept and embrace those points of learning..

Psalms taught in essence the 'tauhid' meaning about Allah, prayers, and praises etc and the Torah added the human dynamics like to do unto others what one would expect others to do unto him. The Injeel (as said by Jesus pbuh) reaffirmed the message of past and added 'forgiveness' to the message (hard concept to grasp especially when 'an eye for an eye' is practiced) and when it is fully accepted, the time was ripe for the Quran to be introduced which added the laws about living in a community.

How can we live peacefully in a community if we do not have the concept of forgiveness?

So to stop or to follow any message before the Quran means you would not have the complete message as each had incremental teachings to impart.

Just my humble opinion.


:peace:

[fschmidt]

Do you believe that Muslims also misinterpret the Hebrew Scriptures since they agree with Christians that Jesus of Nazareth is the Messiah?

Not necessarily. If you base this opinion on events that took place after the Old Testament, then this has nothing to do with the Old Testament. But if you think the Old Testament talks specifically about Jesus, then I would say that this is a misinterpretation.

[fschmidt]

I have been reading the Quran and giving this question a lot of thought in the last few days. The answer now is obvious, I should accept the Quran but not accept modern Islam. Modern Islam is clearly flawed. If it wasn't, it would be a much more successful culture as early Islam was. I have no reason to conform to this flawed religion, but I do believe that one should conform to the Quran.

It is clear to me that the Old Testament (Torah=teaching) and the Quran (Islam=submission) complement each other. If one has teaching without submission, then one's own will can interfere with doing what is right. But if one has submission without teaching, then one lacks discernment and one can't tell if one is being misled and submitting to the wrong thing.

Early Islam benefited from the wisdom of Muhammad and his companions. Islam today has no such benefit and must compensate by finding wisdom elsewhere. The Old Testament is an obvious source of wisdom. So I will do my best to combine the Old Testament and the Quran into a coherent religious practice that includes both teaching and submission, and therefore includes both practices suggested by the Old Testament and by the Quran.

[*charisma*]

I have been reading the Quran and giving this question a lot of thought in the last few days. The answer now is obvious, I should accept the Quran but not accept modern Islam. Modern Islam is clearly flawed. If it wasn't, it would be a much more successful culture as early Islam was. I have no reason to conform to this flawed religion, but I do believe that one should conform to the Quran.

It is clear to me that the Old Testament (Torah=teaching) and the Quran (Islam=submission) complement each other. If one has teaching without submission, then one's own will can interfere with doing what is right. But if one has submission without teaching, then one lacks discernment and one can't tell if one is being misled and submitting to the wrong thing.

Early Islam benefited from the wisdom of Muhammad and his companions. Islam today has no such benefit and must compensate by finding wisdom elsewhere. The Old Testament is an obvious source of wisdom. So I will do my best to combine the Old Testament and the Quran into a coherent religious practice that includes both teaching and submission, and therefore includes both practices suggested by the Old Testament and by the Quran.

Can you differentiate what you mean by "modern Islam" and "early Islam?" because Islam is Islam...there's no one else we try to emulate except the prophet pbuh and the Quran as you've stated, whether in the past or now. Now some muslims may not be the best version of islam, especially these days, but that doesn't change the message of what Islam always has been.

[azc]

I have been reading the Quran and giving this question a lot of thought in the last few days. The answer now is obvious, I should accept the Quran but not accept modern Islam. Modern Islam is clearly flawed. If it wasn't, it would be a much more successful culture as early Islam was. I have no reason to conform to this flawed religion, but I do believe that one should conform to the Quran.It is clear to me that the Old Testament (Torah=teaching) and the Quran (Islam=submission) complement each other. If one has teaching without submission, then one's own will can interfere with doing what is right. But if one has submission without teaching, then one lacks discernment and one can't tell if one is being misled and submitting to the wrong thing.Early Islam benefited from the wisdom of Muhammad and his companions. Islam today has no such benefit and must compensate by finding wisdom elsewhere. The Old Testament is an obvious source of wisdom. So I will do my best to combine the Old Testament and the Quran into a coherent religious practice that includes both teaching and submission, and therefore includes both practices suggested by the Old Testament and by the Quran.

I have been reading the Quran and giving this question a lot of thought in the last few days. The answer now is obvious,

Sagacious savants spend their whole lives to comprehend the depth and hidden treasure of Quran e.g. Hz Umar :RA:, , a highly intelligent and sagacious companion of prophet s.a.w took 12 yrs to comprehend ONLY ONE Surah in full depth i.e. Al-Baqrah, whereas Prophet s.a.w, ,his teacher himself was alive to teach him. And you, a layman, have understood whole of the Quran in a few days...? Amazing ! Ain't. You..?

I should accept the Quran but not accept modern Islam. Modern Islam is clearly flawed.

so you assume that modern Islam is lacking in the genuine characteristics of primitive Islam. Right..? So, will you explain those characteristics...?

If it wasn't, it would be a much more successful culture as early Islam was.

be aware of basics thatIslam has nothing to do with culture. Your thinking is flawed.

I have no reason to conform to this flawed religion, but I do believe that one should conform to the Quran.

Your statement is self contradicting here. You accept Quran and deny religion whereas religion is based on Quran

It is clear to me that the Old Testament (Torah=teaching) and the Quran (Islam=submission) complement each other.

you assume that Torah is lacking 'submission' and Quran in 'teachings'. What a stupid thinking ! So write at least 10 teachings of Torah to evaluate whether or not Quran is lacking in those teachings.

If one has teaching without submission, then one's own will can interfere with doing what is right. But if one has submission without teaching, then one lacks discernment and one can't tell if one is being misled and submitting to the wrong thing.

So people of Torah had teachings but had no guidance how to submit themselves to to God..? So how people of Quran submitted themselves to God whereas, as you say, Quran is lacking in teachings.?

Early Islam benefited from the wisdom of Muhammad and his companions.

Do those words of wisdom not exist now..?

Islam today has no such benefit and must compensate by finding wisdom elsewhere.

Open your eyes and see all those words of wisdom in books of ahadith.

[fschmidt]

Sagacious savants spend their whole lives to comprehend the depth and hidden treasure of Quran e.g. Hz Umar :RA:, , a highly intelligent and sagacious companion of prophet s.a.w took 12 yrs to comprehend ONLY ONE Surah in full depth i.e. Al-Baqrah, whereas Prophet s.a.w, ,his teacher himself was alive to teach him. And you, a layman, have understood whole of the Quran in a few days...? Amazing ! Ain't. You..?

Spending 12 years on one Surah is myopic, a poor use of time. One should have broad education to understand the world. Muhammad is a good example of someone with broad experience. He had experience in business, in religion, in leadership, in politics, and in war. Muhammad wouldn't have wasted 12 years on one Surah.

I also have a fairly broad education and experience. I am certainly not an expert on the Quran, but I have enough general understanding of the world to be able to understand the Quran in context.

so you assume that modern Islam is lacking in the genuine characteristics of primitive Islam. Right..? So, will you explain those characteristics...?

I can't be sure because I don't know early Islam well enough. But as I mentioned before, I think Greek influence on Islam was harmful.

be aware of basics that Islam has nothing to do with culture. Your thinking is flawed.

Religion has everything to do with culture. It isn't that culture determines religion, but rather that religion influences and ultimately determines culture. This is why countries that share religion tend to share many cultural things in common.

Your statement is self contradicting here. You accept Quran and deny religion whereas religion is based on Quran

Different versions of religion can share the same books as can be clearly seen in Christianity. And even in Islam, if one looks at history, there were significantly different interpretations of the Quran.

you assume that Torah is lacking 'submission' and Quran in 'teachings'. What a stupid thinking ! So write at least 10 teachings of Torah to evaluate whether or not Quran is lacking in those teachings.So people of Torah had teachings but had no guidance how to submit themselves to to God..? So how people of Quran submitted themselves to God whereas, as you say, Quran is lacking in teachings.?

The emphasis of Torah is teaching and the emphasis of Quran is submission. This can be seen in history itself. It is clear from the Old Testament that the Israelites had a problem with submission. And it is clear to me based on the lack of success of modern Muslim countries that modern Islam lacks teaching.

Do those words of wisdom not exist now..? Open your eyes and see all those words of wisdom in books of ahadith.

In American law, a hadith would be considered hearsay and would be inadmissible in a court of law. I agree with this reasoning because it is very difficult to prove the validity of what one person claims to have heard from another. Primary evidence is much better, and there is plenty of it in history itself. History is a direct reflection of God's will, while hadiths are nothing but what one imperfect person claims to have heard from another imperfect person. To me there is no doubt which is more valuable for determining truth.

[goodwill]

Not necessarily. If you base this opinion on events that took place after the Old Testament, then this has nothing to do with the Old Testament. But if you think the Old Testament talks specifically about Jesus, then I would say that this is a misinterpretation.

I see your point. What is your take on the Messianic prophecies? Do you agree with the ancient Jewish understanding (Targum Jonathan and before) that the Hebrew Scriptures foretold the coming of an individual who would be the Messiah in a special sense, one of whom David, Solomon, Cyrus, for example, were but types?

[azc]

@fschmidt : Inna lillahi wa inna ilaihi rajioon. Now your religion is 'other'..?

[azc]

@fschmidt : I think neither you've the knowledge of Quran nor of Torah. I asked you to quote 10 teachings from Torah.

[fschmidt]

@fschmidt : I think neither you've the knowledge of Quran nor of Torah. I asked you to quote 10 teachings from Torah.

Giving a good answer would take a lot of time, so I will just give a few from the Old Testament that come to mind. Note that one of the main ideas is to get one to think, even if the conclusion isn't right.

1. The sabbath is an obvious one.

2. In the story of Cain and Abel, Cain does what God asked, to raise crops, while Abel doesn't. Yet God prefers Abel's offering. My interpretation is that God prefers initiative to obedience.

3. [removed - disrespectful towards a Prophet]

4. There is much debate about the sacrifice of Isaac. My interpretation is that this was test that Abraham failed. God didn't want blind obedience, God wanted Abraham to question God which Abraham failed to do. This is why God never spoke to Abraham again after Abraham went through with this, and left it to messengers (angels) to give Abraham meaningless complements. Of course Abraham was good on average, but this was a flaw.

5. There is the story of how Jacob got Esau's birthright. The point here is that when dealing with dumb brutes, use their stupidity against them. But for this to work, one has to be persistent as Jacob was throughout his life.

6. Joseph is interesting in that he is intelligent and righteous, but he lacks independence. He served the pharaoh which brought him wealth and power, but not freedom as seen in what he has to go through to bury his father. The lesson here is that this is the price of playing the power game in centers of power, the loss of freedom.

7. The plagues of Egypt, whether done by God or by Moses in God's name, were basically terrorism against Egypt. The lesson is that terrorism is very effective against wealthy corrupt powers. It worked for Jews against Britain in allowing them to form Israel.

8. The whole exodus story is a wonderful description of human nature. How the Israelites complained endlessly about everything, as people always do. How Moses had to constantly struggle to keep these people in line.

9. In the story of the daughters of Zelophehad, they basically tell Moses that he is wrong, and Moses agrees and changes his law. The point is that even best leader makes mistakes, but he is willing to correct then. And similarly, one should always be open to changing any law if it is clear that the law can be improved.

10. God repeatedly promises success for one's descendants if one follows God's teaching. There is no mention of an afterlife, and in fact Ecclesiastes rejects the idea by saying that one can't know what happens after one dies. This message is useful for those who think deeply about morality, but is useless to those who don't. The Quran takes opposite position which is appropriate for inspiring submission. The two can be reconciled by saying that there is no proof of an afterlife, but there no harm in accepting the idea because it is fully compatible with doing what benefits one's descendants.

I assume most Muslims won't agree with my conclusions, but again the conclusions aren't the point. The point is that these stories make one think, make one exercise one's brain. The ideal person is capable of both independent thought and of submission.

[fschmidt]

I see your point. What is your take on the Messianic prophecies? Do you agree with the ancient Jewish understanding (Targum Jonathan and before) that the Hebrew Scriptures foretold the coming of an individual who would be the Messiah in a special sense, one of whom David, Solomon, Cyrus, for example, were but types?

The Old Testament does have Messianic prophecies, but they aren't central to the book. Jews and Christians have radically different interpretations of these prophecies, but I think they are vague enough to be open to either interpretation. In my judgement as a non-Christian, I think that Jesus did fulfill the requirements of prophecy, but not for the reasons Christians usually give. My reasoning is that Jesus, through Christianity, saved Europe from the fall of Rome, and that without Jesus, Europe would never have recovered. This is Messianic enough for me.

[Samiun]

This is why we are only told to explicitly follow the Qur'an only and why other scriptures have been corrupted, now you are saying that one of the prophets have committed such sins? You're a liar. Allahu'Alam

I assume most Muslims won't agree with my conclusions, but again the conclusions aren't the point. The point is that these stories make one think, make one exercise one's brain. The ideal person is capable of both independent thought and of submission.

The Qur'an is sufficient, and honestly I don't understand Arabic but I know how to read Qur'an and have read a few Tafseers in English and my own language and I'm still far off(when I say far off, I mean VERY VERY VERY VERY far off) from making the claim that I can decipher the Qur'an or make translations about it and say because I've experienced and have broad education (whatever that means) I can make my own interpretation on the Qur'an(nah, not gonna work, nope.). My head hurts when you attack a person who have studied 12 years of Surah and brush it off as 'wasting time', well people have spent all their lives trying to find the meaning of 'infinity' and some even have died from it, or people have spent a lot time to go through education. You're completely underestimating the Qur'an and Arabic is a very complex and linguistic language and does have a lot of science to it. It is *not* easy, it is not simple.

[azc]

Giving a good answer would take a lot of time, so I will just give a few from the Old Testament that come to mind. Note that one of the main ideas is to get one to think, even if the conclusion isn't right.1. The sabbath is an obvious one.2. In the story of Cain and Abel, Cain does what God asked, to raise crops, while Abel doesn't. Yet God prefers Abel's offering. My interpretation is that God prefers initiative to obedience.3. The story of Noah's drunkenness is interesting. I don't think highly of Noah. He was only righteous in a relative since since the rest of humanity was so bad. But the first thing he does after the flood is to get drunk and pass out. When Ham discovers Noah, Noah is unjustly angry and unjustly curses Ham's son Canaan. So Noah was an unjust drunk. The lesson here is that when humanity goes bad, even the best person is a mess. For good people to exist, one needs a good culture.4. There is much debate about the sacrifice of Isaac. My interpretation is that this was test that Abraham failed. God didn't want blind obedience, God wanted Abraham to question God which Abraham failed to do. This is why God never spoke to Abraham again after Abraham went through with this, and left it to messengers (angels) to give Abraham meaningless complements. Of course Abraham was good on average, but this was a flaw.5. There is the story of how Jacob got Esau's birthright. The point here is that when dealing with dumb brutes, use their stupidity against them. But for this to work, one has to be persistent as Jacob was throughout his life.6. Joseph is interesting in that he is intelligent and righteous, but he lacks independence. He served the pharaoh which brought him wealth and power, but not freedom as seen in what he has to go through to bury his father. The lesson here is that this is the price of playing the power game in centers of power, the loss of freedom.7. The plagues of Egypt, whether done by God or by Moses in God's name, were basically terrorism against Egypt. The lesson is that terrorism is very effective against wealthy corrupt powers. It worked for Jews against Britain in allowing them to form Israel.8. The whole exodus story is a wonderful description of human nature. How the Israelites complained endlessly about everything, as people always do. How Moses had to constantly struggle to keep these people in line.9. In the story of the daughters of Zelophehad, they basically tell Moses that he is wrong, and Moses agrees and changes his law. The point is that even best leader makes mistakes, but he is willing to correct then. And similarly, one should always be open to changing any law if it is clear that the law can be improved.10. God repeatedly promises success for one's descendants if one follows God's teaching. There is no mention of an afterlife, and in fact Ecclesiastes rejects the idea by saying that one can't know what happens after one dies. This message is useful for those who think deeply about morality, but is useless to those who don't. The Quran takes opposite position which is appropriate for inspiring submission. The two can be reconciled by saying that there is no proof of an afterlife, but there no harm in accepting the idea because it is fully compatible with doing what benefits one's descendants.I assume most Muslims won't agree with my conclusions, but again the conclusions aren't the point. The point is that these stories make one think, make one exercise one's brain. The ideal person is capable of both independent thought and of submission.

You failed to justify your tall talks

[azc]

@fschmidt : Lot and His Daughters : 30 Now Lot went up out of Zoar and mlived in the hills with his two daughters, for he was afraid to live in Zoar. So he lived in a cave with his two daughters.31 And the firstborn said to the younger, “Our father is old, and there is not a man on earth to come in to us after the manner of all the earth.32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.”33 So they made their father drink wine that night. And the firstborn went in and lay with her father. He did not know when she lay down or when she arose.34 The next day, the firstborn said to the younger, “Behold, I lay last night with my father. Let us make him drink wine tonight also. Then you go in and lie with him, that we may preserve offspring from our father.”35 So they made their father drink wine that night also. And the younger arose and lay with him, and he did not know when she lay down or when she arose.36 Thus both the daughters of Lot became pregnant by their father .37 The firstborn bore a son and called his name Moab. 2 nHe is the father of the Moabites to this day.38 The younger also bore a son and called his name Ben-ammi. 3 oHe is the father of the Ammonites to this day....... Now would you like to take 'teachings' from this incident to incest with your mother or sister or daughter (if married)

[Scimitar]

I grew up atheist and later studied various religious texts and the Old Testament is my favorite. I have nothing against the Quran, but the Old Testament is simply my favorite and so I follow it.

I would like to join an existing religion. The reason is that I find modern culture to be evil and hostile, and I would like to associate with people who share at least some of my values. So let me consider the options.

This is great news, God is great. I'm gonna keep reading.

Most people believe that Jews follow the Old Testament, but this is simply wrong. Today's Jews follow the Talmud which twists the Old Testament beyond recognition. A simple example is the prohibition of mixing meat and milk which can't be found in the Old Testament anywhere. But worse is the racism of Judaism which has no basis in the Old Testament. The religion of modern Judaism not only isn't based on the Old Testament but strongly conflicts with it, making it unworkable for me.

Not all, just some - namely the non Semitic majority Jews. The Semitic ones follow Torah. Also, I wonder if you've seen the Corey Gill Shuster vids on youtube? When interviewing Jews in Israel with the question: Are you religious? - 95% answered "no, atheist"... what's really telling if one has knowledge of Semitic bloodlines, is that those who claim to be Jews but are blonde haired and blue eyed atheists, are not even Semitic, but from the Khazar bloodlines which are descended from Japeth, not Shem.

The Con, is ON.

Some traditional Christian groups like the Puritans followed the moral ideas of the Old Testament. But most modern Christians reject the whole idea of moral law, which is horrifying to me. In my opinion, Christianity violates the Old Testament idea of "God is one" by making Jesus into a god. The basic principle of Christianity is accepting Jesus as a god, and this is something I could never do.

Seems you are receiving guidance, you are aligning your belief in theology to that of the Prophets and Messengers whom God sent to us, may Gods peace and mercy be upon them all, ameen.

I know that the Old Testament is not part of Islam, but what little I know about Islam seems to be based on the same moral principles that the Old Testament stands for.

I would say that the Old Testament was the Qur'an of it's time - as it was audibly recited 3 times a day, that is, until the babylonian captivity - which is when the Torah was destroyed and no child of Israel who had memorised it, allowed to live.

If it wasn't for God giving Uzair (Ezra of the OT) a death like sleep for one hundred years and bringing him back to life - after the captivity - the children of Israel would have no Torah today.

Having said that, to claim the Torah is extant as it was prior to the captivity, is a bit of a stretch. Given that Jesus pbuh had massive issues with the interpretation of passages which the rabbi's pragmatically abused to foment debt slavery in the 2nd temple, we can no doubt assume that Jesus was there to set the record straight.... thing is, that didn't happen.

When considering the Shahada "There is no god but God and that Muhammad is His messenger" I see 2 parts. The first part is the same as "God is one" in the Old Testament, so that certainly works for me. And for the second part, though I cannot judge the Quran myself, I also cannot deny that Muhammad has had a huge impact on the world and introduced God to many people, and I consider this to be good enough evidence that Muhammad is God's messenger. So I would have no problem saying the Shahada.

Alhamdulillah.

My understanding of the latter part of the shahadah is the following. When we accept Muhammad pbuh as the Prophet and Messenger of God, we are also acknowledging the previous Prophets and Messengers whom God sent to us, starting from our paternal Grandfather, Adam pbuh and ending with Muhammad pbuh - these would no doubt include Abraham and the modern Abrahamic faith traditions.

What is important to understand is that God does not send a prophet or messenger until and unless the people of belief, have neglected their duties and turned to evil. In some cases, they also get sent with Holy Scripture, such as Torah, The Zabur (Pslams of David) the Injeel (Gospel of Jesus), and the Qur'an - the final revelation to mankind. A most insightful revelation which heralds life changing narratives and gives the reader, a chance to reconcile their existence in the sight of God Almighty. And unlike other scriptures, this one, the Qur'an, will suffer no corruptions - and so far it holds up to that challenge. Allahu Akbar.

But even if I said the Shahada, my primary dedication would be to the Old Testament which I love. What would change is that I would consider muslims to be my people and I would give charity to them. And I would follow islamic rules within reason, especially in public. But I would still follow the Ten Commandments and keep the sabbath and study the Old Testament, not the Quran. So my question simply is, would this work?

In short,

No.

Why would you convert to Judaism, when so many Jews have become Muslims, especially in the middle east - and not through force, but through conviction that Islam is the path of the Prophets and Messengers.

The whole of Yathrib, which was a city in Arabia, was Jewish. They'd settled there a thousand years previous to the birth of Muhammad pbuh. They settled there after the captivity of Babylon, when Cyrus let the children of Israel return to their holy lands and even commanded they rebuild their temple, and sponsored it.

He (Cyrus) told the children of Israel, go back to your land and rebuild the temple, but not all went, infact only a minority went to rebuild it, while others went in other directions.

Of those who went elsewhere, there were a party of Jews who were aware of the Old Testament prophecies prior to the disappearance of the Torah during the captivity period, and they settled Arabia because they knew the final Prophet of God, would come from Arabia.

I can go on with this, but I encourage you to look into the reasonings why so many Jews have become Muslims, over the centuries.

God bless, and may He guide you to the truth, Ameen.

Scimi

EDIT: one last thing, I read the Old Testament. I consider it integral to my study of comparative eschatology. I leave the New Testament alone though. Revelations, reads like a trip. Anyone can read/interpret it how they like, that's a massive issue.

EDIT2:

The Old Testament does have Messianic prophecies, but they aren't central to the book. Jews and Christians have radically different interpretations of these prophecies, but I think they are vague enough to be open to either interpretation.

The question you should dwell upon is "Is God the author of confusion?" ... or "man" ???

Point I am making is that, the Torah had disappeared, and when it returned, there wasn't a rabbi left who knew how to interpret it - it was left to Ezra to teach, and no one knew Ezra, because he'd been dead for 100 years... only an old lady who was Ezra's servant maid of only 13 years old approx before Ezra's first death, recognised his voice but her sight was blinded through age, so Ezra prayed for her and her sight returned - and she recognised Ezra and took him to meet his family... Ezra met his family, his grandson was older than he in years.

Point I'm making is this - no one knew Ezra, and Ezra suffered the indignities which the children of Israel lynched most of their Israeli prophets and messengers with.

Interpretation? Bro, you have to realise that the history of the old testament plays like a soap opera, one that has elements of the worst dramas we see play out on our tv sets these days.

Yes, the Torah was an Holy Book, but it is now a book which was once holy.

The very word Torah, mean Law... and the children of Israel, did not follow those laws properly - they abused them, and that's what Jesus pbuh had major issues with.

Like I said, Jesus pbuh wasn't able to fulfil his mission - but he is the Messiah, and his job is not done yet... when he returns, his theology and practice with be parallel to the Muslims. He prayed like the Muslims, Worshipped like the Muslims, and spoke like a Muslim, and did deeds which are extant even today as beneficial works, within Islam.

Our women, reflect the most pious woman to have ever lived, Mary, the Mother of Jesus pbuh, with the veil and modesty.

Our people, sufferring inequity and injustice at the hands of the evil powers of the world, same way all people of God suffered throughout history.

Today you don't see the Jew's under attack - nor the Christians... why would they be attacked when they are so lost in their practice (Jews) and theology (Christians) ???

The devil don't care to turn them astray, because they already are... so instead, the devil spends his energies riling up his human armies to attack Muslims in their nations.

Hasn't it always been this way?

Who can disagree?

Scimi

[fschmidt]

You failed to justify your tall talks

I was reading the Quran last night and 5:101 reminded me of you.

[anatolian]

Sir, Quran is simply the Torah of all mankind. God gave Torah to a specific people in a specific history. There was a purpose of it. There is some purpose of everything. But God gave Quran 1400 years ago to all mankind including the people of Israel. You know the meaning of Islam "Submission". When you are a Muslim you submit yourself to the will of God and accept the things come from Him. Since God abolished Torah and all other revelations came before Quran, and established the final religion for all mankind based on Quran, you just need to accept it as a "submitter"...

[fschmidt]

Having said that, to claim the Torah is extant as it was prior to the captivity, is a bit of a stretch. Given that Jesus pbuh had massive issues with the interpretation of passages which the rabbi's pragmatically abused to foment debt slavery in the 2nd temple, we can no doubt assume that Jesus was there to set the record straight.... thing is, that didn't happen.

I don't know how much the Torah has changed since I don't have the original, but I am still happy with what I have. It is still enough to see that the rabbis were wrong in their interpretation of debt (prosbul) and that Jesus was trying to set the record straight. And in a sense, it did eventually happen in Christian societies where bankruptcy law was enacted to provide debt relief. This is now being repealed in America as it loses its Christian roots.

My understanding of the latter part of the shahadah is the following. When we accept Muhammad pbuh as the Prophet and Messenger of God, we are also acknowledging the previous Prophets and Messengers whom God sent to us, starting from our paternal Grandfather, Adam pbuh and ending with Muhammad pbuh - these would no doubt include Abraham and the modern Abrahamic faith traditions.

The shahadah only mentions Muhammad. I don't consider Adam, Noah, or David to be prophets based on their behavior as described in the Old Testament.

Why would you convert to Judaism, when so many Jews have become Muslims, especially in the middle east - and not through force, but through conviction that Islam is the path of the Prophets and Messengers.

As I said, Judaism is based on the Talmud, not the Old Testament, so isn't for me. And it's fine with me that many Jews became Muslims, each person has to find their own path.

The question you should dwell upon is "Is God the author of confusion?" ... or "man" ???

The Messianic prophecies are not central to the Old Testament, so this confusion doesn't matter. But the general confusion about the Old Testament does matter, and is the reason why further prophets were needed. I agree that most people can't understand the Old Testament and should just stick to the Quran. But those who can understand the Old Testament should take it seriously.

Interpretation? Bro, you have to realise that the history of the old testament plays like a soap opera, one that has elements of the worst dramas we see play out on our tv sets these days.

The Old Testament is the most realistic book about human nature that I have read. I think those who consider the Old Testament to be bad soap opera just can't accept the reality of human nature.

The very word Torah, mean Law... and the children of Israel, did not follow those laws properly - they abused them, and that's what Jesus pbuh had major issues with.

It is absolutely critical to understand that Torah does not mean Law, Torah means teaching. This misunderstanding is why Christians almost completely miss the point of the Old Testament.

Today you don't see the Jew's under attack - nor the Christians... why would they be attacked when they are so lost in their practice (Jews) and theology (Christians) ???

Western culture is disintegrating and will be gone in a century. But what will replace it? I don't see enlightenment anywhere and it would be sad if the whole world sunk into a dark age. Hopefully Islam will have a reformation and produce the next great culture.

[goodwill]

The Old Testament does have Messianic prophecies, but they aren't central to the book. Jews and Christians have radically different interpretations of these prophecies, but I think they are vague enough to be open to either interpretation. In my judgement as a non-Christian, I think that Jesus did fulfill the requirements of prophecy, but not for the reasons Christians usually give. My reasoning is that Jesus, through Christianity, saved Europe from the fall of Rome, and that without Jesus, Europe would never have recovered. This is Messianic enough for me.

Unique perspective, brother. I could not have anticipated that answer :) As I see it, Jesus as Messiah provides a unity, direction, and fulfillment to the Hebrew and Aramaic Scriptures that would otherwise have been missing. May the Lord grant us all to find wisdom and every good path.

[Scimitar]

I don't know how much the Torah has changed since I don't have the original, but I am still happy with what I have. It is still enough to see that the rabbis were wrong in their interpretation of debt (prosbul) and that Jesus was trying to set the record straight. And in a sense, it did eventually happen in Christian societies where bankruptcy law was enacted to provide debt relief. This is now being repealed in America as it loses its Christian roots.

This is still a *******isation of the intended equity which the OT promoted, once upon a time.

No interest rates, but a one time affordable fee for a loan - on trust.

That is what is fair. Not a fluctuating interest rate which ties in the lendee to a lifetime of debt.

A can of coke in Arabia was 1SR back in 1993 when I first visited... it is still 1SR today, that is what I call fair.

The global monetary system is controlled by whom? Which banking families from which faith group? Judaism. And what state have they left the west in? Trump said it straight - trillions of dollars owed to the bankers and the Chinese... you cannot by any measure of belief, justify debt slavery and I'm sure you don't want to, as you are against it as much as I am. However, I don't think you understand how deeply rooted the world economy is to the idea of interest based banking which is an invention made popular by the Jewish bankers, through their wayward justification of it through their dodgy interpretations of the Torah.

The west cannot afford to pay back their debts and so, the worlds largest economy becomes something termed as "war economy" and I'm pretty sure tht is not what God had in mind. The west has to continuously invade and leech third world nations for their mineral wealth and more. All so they can pay back their debts. And borrow more on the promise of future conquests.

Are you sure you believe this is what God willed?

The shahadah only mentions Muhammad. I don't consider Adam, Noah, or David to be prophets based on their behavior as described in the Old Testament.

The corruptions in the OT are not just to do with debt slavery, but also how the "Lying pen of the scribes" (see Jeremiah 8 and other references too) changed the laws over time, amongst other things - Moses himself prophesied this, pbuh.


So again, if you do follow what is written, it is incumbent on you to understand that the very book you hold, tells you "I'm not the word of God, but the word of man now, and that word is faulty as sin" in so many words.

Let's not forget, fschmidt, that the Children of Israel hardly ever had anything good to say about their prophets and messengers. Did the prophets and messengers not get slandered? absued? exiled? killed? Of course they did.

The children of Israel would constantly break their covenant with God, through the acts of slander, abuse, exile and murder of those God had chosen as the prophets and messengers to the children of Israel.

Knowing this, and what is written in Jeremiah 8 regarding the lying pen of the scribes, you will still believe what you wish to? I don't understand why you would do that. Where is your power of discernment?

As I said, Judaism is based on the Talmud, not the Old Testament, so isn't for me. And it's fine with me that many Jews became Muslims, each person has to find their own path.

Khazar Judaism is based on the Talmud. Orthodox Judaism doesn't look to it.

The Messianic prophecies are not central to the Old Testament, so this confusion doesn't matter. But the general confusion about the Old Testament does matter, and is the reason why further prophets were needed. I agree that most people can't understand the Old Testament and should just stick to the Quran. But those who can understand the Old Testament should take it seriously.

I understand it well, and I'm telling you why I consider it an holy book which has corruptions that require years of study to understand, things like nuance and schism play their roles within the instances of context and the anthropology as well as chronology of the OT. When one reads the book linearly, like a novel, they do their intellect no justice and interpret how they wish, which is not how any holy book should be studied.

The Old Testament is the most realistic book about human nature that I have read. I think those who consider the Old Testament to be bad soap opera just can't accept the reality of human nature.

A very interesting comment. If I may, I'd like to ask you why. Personally, Herodotus' histories are the most realistic books I've read on human nature.

is absolutely critical to understand that Torah does not mean Law, Torah means teaching. This misunderstanding is why Christians almost completely miss the point of the Old Testament.

Torah is the oral law of Moses, and the etymology of the word is related to the Hebrew word Yareh which means to "hit the mark", the target being, the truth about God and how one relates to HIM. It's the same with any holy book, they all claim the same. But they are all not the same.

Western culture is disintegrating and will be gone in a century. But what will replace it? I don't see enlightenment anywhere and it would be sad if the whole world sunk into a dark age. Hopefully Islam will have a reformation and produce the next great culture.

God knows best.

The prophecies regarding the end time within Islam are plentiful and provide a better narrative with which to understand the times previous generations lived and the time we inhabit now, as well as what is to come next.

It sure doesn't look pretty, but there is hope.

Scimi

[talibilm]

@fschmidt

What is the Greek Influence of Islam ?

What is Modern Islam ?

Kindly explain with PROOF since i want to know how accurate is your conception

I had replied here on Jewish religion to some one pointing many facts in the thread below. Kindly go through all links especially ''Did Yahweh replace the Word Allah ? Whats your view ?

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...wish-Religion&

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...-of-the-Torah&

[Born_Believer]

You're all going in circles. This man obviously believes he can follow both the Old Testament and the Quran, yet he claims to read the Quran every night and doesn't understand how contradictory it sounds. He also claims to want to follow the teachings of Prophet Muhammad PBUH without the corruption of "modern Islam", whatever that is, yet still wants to believe in the Torah which has been clearly refuted by the Prophet PBUH himself.

Seriously, none of you should be wasting your time on here.

[talibilm]

@fschmidt

What is the Greek Influence of Islam ?

What is Modern Islam ?

Kindly explain with PROOF since i want to know how accurate is your conception

I had replied here on Jewish religion to some one pointing many facts in the thread below. Kindly go through all links especially ''Did Yahweh replace the Word Allah ? Whats your view ?

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...wish-Religion&

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...-of-the-Torah&

@fschmidt

Hope you don't miss out my post.

[fschmidt]

What is the Greek Influence of Islam ?

I discussed some of this here:

https://www.islamicboard.com/compara...ml#post2939274

But beyond this, Islam fell into the philosophy trap and never recovered. Philosophy threatens common sense, and one has to know how to respond to retain common sense.

What is Modern Islam ?

I am just learning the details now as I attend my local Islamic Center. But the result of Modern Islam is no science, bad government, and a poor standard of living. But this is still better than Western liberalism which produces immorality and eventually complete destruction.

Kindly explain with PROOF since i want to know how accurate is your conception

Statements about the real world cannot be proven. Only God knows for sure, which is why people should retain skepticism.

I had replied here on Jewish religion to some one pointing many facts in the thread below. Kindly go through all links especially ''Did Yahweh replace the Word Allah ? Whats your view ?

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...wish-Religion&

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...-of-the-Torah&

I read some of this. The Hebrew name for God is YHVH whose pronunciation is unclear, but I say "Yehovah" (yu-ho-vah) based on my reading of the Hebrew. I see no reason to believe that the name was Allah.

You said that the Talmud is based on Psalms. This means that you have never read the Talmud. I suggest you look at it for yourself:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm

[fschmidt]

The global monetary system is controlled by whom? Which banking families from which faith group? Judaism.

The Old Testament said that the Israelites were not to charge interest to each other, but could charge interest to outsiders. So the issue here is really who are the Israelites, not the charging of interest. And I would say that any group that respects God qualifies as at least somewhat "Israelite" and shouldn't be charged interest. As far I am concerned, the West today doesn't respect God, so the bankers are doing the world a favor by bankrupting the West. When the West was more Christian, it was much less dependent on debt. The West will soon lose its ability to invade other countries as it becomes poorer and less functional. And I believe that this is God's will, that the West declines and falls.

The corruptions in the OT are not just to do with debt slavery, but also how the "Lying pen of the scribes" (see Jeremiah 8 and other references too) changed the laws over time, amongst other things - Moses himself prophesied this, pbuh.

I know that Muslims consider the Quran perfect (as many religions do their own scripture), but my view is that anything touched by people is imperfect, and so one must be skeptical of everything. I don't expect perfection, I just look for the best that I can find, and the Old Testament qualifies there.

Let's not forget, fschmidt, that the Children of Israel hardly ever had anything good to say about their prophets and messengers. Did the prophets and messengers not get slandered? absued? exiled? killed? Of course they did.

This is the reality of all human nature. If Muhammad was reborn today, I have no doubt that modern Muslims would call him a heretic. Same for Jesus and Christians. It is human nature to hate the truth.

Khazar Judaism is based on the Talmud. Orthodox Judaism doesn't look to it.

I have never heard of Khazar Judaism. Orthodox Judaism is based on the Talmud. Just ask your local orthodox rabbi.

A very interesting comment. If I may, I'd like to ask you why. Personally, Herodotus' histories are the most realistic books I've read on human nature.

Herodotus wrote the ultimate soap operas, dramatized with many irrelevant details. (At least that is how I remember it.) The Old Testament is drier and more on point, even while describing true historical drama. There are moral lessons to be drawn from virtually everything found in the Old Testament.

Torah is the oral law of Moses, and the etymology of the word is related to the Hebrew word Yareh which means to "hit the mark", the target being, the truth about God and how one relates to HIM. It's the same with any holy book, they all claim the same. But they are all not the same.

Yes, and this supports my point of Torah meaning teaching (of truth), not meaning law. Of course all holy books claim to be true. The difference is in the means for following God's will? For the Old Testament, it is teaching (and understanding). For the New Testament, it is faith. For the Quran, it is submission.

[talibilm]

I discussed some of this here:

https://www.islamicboard.com/compara...ml#post2939274

But beyond this, Islam fell into the philosophy trap and never recovered. Philosophy threatens common sense, and one has to know how to respond to retain common sense.


I am just learning the details now as I attend my local Islamic Center. But the result of Modern Islam is no science, bad government, and a poor standard of living. But this is still better than Western liberalism which produces immorality and eventually complete destruction.


Statements about the real world cannot be proven. Only God knows for sure, which is why people should retain skepticism.

I am giving a general answer to the points you raised about so called Modern Islam . Islam is untill for the day of Judgement so there if you want to the genuine Islam its only ONE and that's the way of Prophet :saws: & companions & the maximum two generations as seen from this hadith which are more than 10 from almost all of the different collectors of hadiths that speaks of the geneunity and importance of this text and matter.

Bukhari :: Book 3 :: Volume 48 :: Hadith 819

Narrated Zahdam bin Mudrab:
I heard Imran bin Husain saying, "The Prophet said, 'The best people are those living in my generation then those coming after them, and then those coming after (the second generation)." Imran said "I do not know whether the Prophet mentioned two or three generations after your present generation. The Prophet added, 'There will be some people after you, who will be dishonest and will not be trustworthy and will give witness (evidences) without being asked to give witness, and will vow but will not fulfill their vows, and fatness will appear among them."

and this hadith from Caliph Ali :ra: who is titled the best judge of the ummah had explain How Islam is not based on conscience though Science is a blessing and Mercy of Allah through humans mind to ease the Humans life as per the need of their times and may also be proved the correctness of Islam to a level.

'' Narrated / Authority Of: Ali ibn Abu Talib
If the religion were based on opinion, it would be more important to wipe the under part of the shoe than the upper but I have seen the Messenger of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) wiping over the upper part of his shoes.

I read some of this. The Hebrew name for God is YHVH whose pronunciation is unclear, but I say "Yehovah" (yu-ho-vah) based on my reading of the Hebrew. I see no reason to believe that the name was Allah.

Allah is still used by the copts both Jews & Christians as was used by Prophet Abraham from the Kaaba comes from and Elah is Aramaic ( mix of Hebrew & arabic ) proves it too. So we see many 'Abdullah' names in Medina even before arrival of Islam because jews were living there who used Allah

You said that the Talmud is based on Psalms. This means that you have never read the Talmud. I suggest you look at it for yourself:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm

I will renew my memory later from your link but I ve did comparative religion studies ( not to the level of Dr Zakir Naik ) but in my early teens ( 3 decades ago) and all the Image I still perceive is that, the OT is Torah, The Injeel is NT, Psalms and Talmud were from the distorted versions of Zaboor . Psalms were alloted the hymns part and added to the OT the practical points were distorted and transfered to Talmud . So Psalms were rather inserted in the OT which came about 600 years (approx) after Moses (pbuh) No wonder Allah said the Truth the Jews distorted books of Allah and also killed prophets ie John the baptist - Prophet Yahya was killed and they killed another Prophet some of them proudly proclaimed about Jesus the Messiah but were fooled .

[Scimitar]

The Old Testament said that the Israelites were not to charge interest to each other, but could charge interest to outsiders. So the issue here is really who are the Israelites, not the charging of interest. And I would say that any group that respects God qualifies as at least somewhat "Israelite" and shouldn't be charged interest. As far I am concerned, the West today doesn't respect God, so the bankers are doing the world a favor by bankrupting the West. When the West was more Christian, it was much less dependent on debt. The West will soon lose its ability to invade other countries as it becomes poorer and less functional. And I believe that this is God's will, that the West declines and falls.

Then, the Jews made God, racist. And you are claiming God is racist.

One cannot be a Jew unless one has the Jewish DNA. Jews cannot charge each other interest. But they can charge the "Goyim (non Jews) - even if they believe in God because "they are not Jews".

Bro, you fell into this one all by your self.

You're justifying racism via debt slavery and attributing this to God - I hope you realize this.

I know that Muslims consider the Quran perfect (as many religions do their own scripture), but my view is that anything touched by people is imperfect, and so one must be skeptical of everything. I don't expect perfection, I just look for the best that I can find, and the Old Testament qualifies there.

An empty claim without any comparatives between the scriptures.

This is the reality of all human nature. If Muhammad was reborn today, I have no doubt that modern Muslims would call him a heretic. Same for Jesus and Christians. It is human nature to hate the truth.

Well, Muslims and Christians are both awaiting Jesus pbuh return. And I agree with you, Christians in my opinion, will be the ones who have the biggest issues regarding Jesus pbuh.

Muslims on the other hand, will have no problem recognising him.

Jews on the other hand? will be doing facepalms on the behalf of their ancestors.

I have never heard of Khazar Judaism. Orthodox Judaism is based on the Talmud. Just ask your local orthodox rabbi.

Looks like your Rabbi, needs to take lessons from the rabbi I know. Can't believe you've not researched the Khazar con.

Herodotus wrote the ultimate soap operas, dramatized with many irrelevant details. (At least that is how I remember it.) The Old Testament is drier and more on point, even while describing true historical drama. There are moral lessons to be drawn from virtually everything found in the Old Testament.

yet his 'soap operas' resulted in archaeologists matching their finds to his histories, resulting in the title "father of history", a step up from the Jew inspired "Father of Lies" - which was a derogatory title given to Herodotus by the Jews... and so I do not find it all that surprising that you'd think he was writing "soap operas" lol.

You and about 13million people in the world would hold the same view, namely world Jewry. That's it.

The rest of the world, does not cling to bias, we prefer to let God reveal truths, over "time" - and Herodotus' histories, have more than proved themselves in this modern age of historical sciences - which is why we do not cling to ancient ideas such as "father of lies" when the modern age has proven that claim not only untrue, but heralds Herodotus as the "father of history" due to the Historical Sciences, such as archaeology, anthropology and an whole host of other ology's lending his narratives credence.

Yes, and this supports my point of Torah meaning teaching (of truth), not meaning law. Of course all holy books claim to be true. The difference is in the means for following God's will? For the Old Testament, it is teaching (and understanding). For the New Testament, it is faith. For the Quran, it is submission.

Being a unilingual speaker, you cannot appreciate the rooting system of semitic languages - Law = Truth. They are not separated. Strictly speaking, Torah means LAW, in the way of TRUTH.

Scimi

[talibilm]

Yeah there is a great straight forward point here '' Jews also made God into a racist '' ^o) Naudhubillah . +1 for @Scimitar

what else they did not make to disprove Islam ??

[Scimitar]

Assalaam alaikum bro Talibilm,

I'm not gonna get into what they did, and willy wave here, as it's not really conducive to this thread. The premise here is "can I follow the Torah as a Muslim?"

The short answer is no. Even the scholars approach with caution, simply because the Old Testament (Torah) is heavily nuanced and written by many authors and scribes, each particular to a period of in history.

The Torah, was collated over a period of a thousand plus years. From Moses pbuh time frame right up to the time when Jesus pbuh entered Jerusalem at the age of 30 odd.

And he had major issues with the rabbi's taking the Law (torah) and misapplying it to line their own pockets, and worse.

The issue here is not the corruptions in the scripture itself, as the scripture of the OT has suffered way less than the NT bible has... however, the issues with the OT are to do with "interpretation of law" among other things. This being the main card.

So, can we as Muslims look at the Torah for ideas about monotheism and practice of deen? No, they have their customs which suit them - we have ours which suit us.

After saying all that, I actually do read the OT, but only for comparative studies in eschatology, and the Qur'an and the ahadeeth take precedence over anything extra-curricular.

Had I done this the other way round? I'd be joining freemasons lol.

Scimi

[Scimitar]

For the record:

The Torah is the Written Law Moses received on Mount Sinai and the five books of Moses pbuh.

The Talmud - is the oral tradition which came much later, and is akin to the ahadeeth in Islam.

Schmidt, you confuse the two because you do not know how they apply to each other.

The Talmud does for the Torah, what the Ahadeeth do for the Qur'an - they explain matters in greater details.

These are human works, not divinely revealed, but dinvinely ordained. There is a difference.

The difference being, the ordained works were left to men. Whereas the divine works are revelation. Not explanation. Savvy?

I am surprised you did not know this fschmidt.

Claiming that Jews follow the Talmud and not the Torah, is highly presumptious of you and totally innacurate.

The Jews cannot follow the Talmud unless they read the Torah first. The Torah is the LAW, the Talmud explains the LAW.

Scimi

[fschmidt]

Then, the Jews made God, racist. And you are claiming God is racist.

One cannot be a Jew unless one has the Jewish DNA. Jews cannot charge each other interest. But they can charge the "Goyim (non Jews) - even if they believe in God because "they are not Jews".

Bro, you fell into this one all by your self.

You're justifying racism via debt slavery and attributing this to God - I hope you realize this.

I said Israelites, not Jews. Israelites weren't a race, they were simply the people/nation who followed God. You clearly didn't read what I wrote.

yet his [Herodotus's] 'soap operas' resulted in archaeologists matching their finds to his histories, resulting in the title "father of history", a step up from the Jew inspired "Father of Lies" - which was a derogatory title given to Herodotus by the Jews... and so I do not find it all that surprising that you'd think he was writing "soap operas" lol.

I am sure Herodotus is valuable to archaeologists, and I had no idea of the jewish opinion of him. My opinion is based simply on reading him, and I find him to be a horrible writer. Thucydides is much better and more deserving of the title "father of history".

Being a unilingual speaker, you cannot appreciate the rooting system of semitic languages - Law = Truth. They are not separated. Strictly speaking, Torah means LAW, in the way of TRUTH.

I speak English and Spanish and I can read some Hebrew. Here is part of 2 Kings 17:34 that contains several related words:

וְאֵינָ֣ם עֹשִׂ֗ים כְּחֻקֹּתָם֙ וּכְמִשְׁפָּטָ֔ם וְכַתֹּורָ֣ה וְכַמִּצְוָ֗ה

As usual, תּוֹרָ֣ה is mistranslated as "law" and חֻקֹּתָם֙ is translated as "statutes". But this is absurd because a statute is a law and in fact חֹק means law. There are many places in the Old Testament where torah is used where it makes no sense translated as "law". As for TRUTH, that is a whole other subject.

[Scimitar]

Hi Schmidt, good to read you again.

I said Israelites, not Jews. Israelites weren't a race, they were simply the people/nation who followed God. You clearly didn't read what I wrote.

True, well i mean "israelites" - not Jews, who would also include the "unclean races of the north" namely the Khazar. Thank you.

I am sure Herodotus is valuable to archaeologists, and I had no idea of the jewish opinion of him. My opinion is based simply on reading him, and I find him to be a horrible writer. Thucydides is much better and more deserving of the title "father of history".

I've read a little of Thucydides, and I'm not sure if you were aware of this, but he is also dubbed a "father of scientific history" because of his vigilance in collating evidence and scrutinising it. He was also quite dilligent in attributing acts in history to "cause and effect" without factoring in the beliefs of the people he wrote about - quite scientific in that way. He was also dubbed the father of political realism.

Thucidided wrote about the Peloponnesian wars. Whereas Herodotus wrote not only about the Greco-Persian wars, but also fables and myths extant at the time of his writing, and related these ton the various governances abounding in the known world at the time and he also factored in geographical and ethnographical information. In this way, he was ble to collate histories from a very large geographial expanse and thus, the title of Father of History, in the more generally accepted sense, it more suited to him. He was a traveller, someone who didn't just stay in his locality and write, but go out into the world to find alternative accounts of the histories he was attempting to pen. He would pen both sides and leave it to the reader to decide what he or she believed.

Archaeologists love him. They often go out into the world to find items of interest based on his histories. Thucidided doesn't get a consideration in this way.

The differences between Thucidides and Herodotus are many. Both are dubbed "fathers of history", but Herodotus carries that claim more soundly as Thucydides was categorised as "father of scientific history".

speak English and Spanish and I can read some Hebrew. Here is part of 2 Kings 17:34 that contains several related words:

וְאֵינָ֣ם עֹשִׂ֗ים כְּחֻקֹּתָם֙ וּכְמִשְׁפָּטָ֔ם וְכַתֹּורָ֣ה וְכַמִּצְוָ֗ה

As usual, תּוֹרָ֣ה is mistranslated as "law" and חֻקֹּתָם֙ is translated as "statutes". But this is absurd because a statute is a law and in fact חֹק means law. There are many places in the Old Testament where torah is used where it makes no sense translated as "law". As for TRUTH, that is a whole other subject.

The ten commandments, and the first five books are the LAW... that which is added after this, are narratives from other prophets and messengers as recorded by scribes which do not actually fit into the context of "LAW" but rather, "history".

Scimi

[fschmidt]

Archaeologists love him [Herodotus]. They often go out into the world to find items of interest based on his histories.

Thank God that I am not an archaeologist, so I don't have to finish Herodotus.

The ten commandments, and the first five books are the LAW... that which is added after this, are narratives from other prophets and messengers as recorded by scribes which do not actually fit into the context of "LAW" but rather, "history".

No, the first five books are the TEACHING. That which is added after this are narratives from other prophets and messengers as recorded by scribes. These narratives illustrate the TEACHING using history.

Anyway, we don't have to agree. You have the Quran to guide you regardless of how you interpret the Old Testament. In my case, I accept that I can't follow the Old Testament in Islam, which means that I will never be Muslim. But I still attend my local mosque every Friday night for shabbat.

[Scimitar]

Thank God that I am not an archaeologist, so I don't have to finish Herodotus.


No, the first five books are the TEACHING. That which is added after this are narratives from other prophets and messengers as recorded by scribes. These narratives illustrate the TEACHING using history.

Anyway, we don't have to agree. You have the Quran to guide you regardless of how you interpret the Old Testament. In my case, I accept that I can't follow the Old Testament in Islam, which means that I will never be Muslim. But I still attend my local mosque every Friday night for shabbat.

Ya know bro, to be a Muslim, it's all about theology, and the theology of the Hebrews is the same as the theology of the Muslims. One God. No Partners, Not anthropomorhic, unimaginable - sent prophets an messengers to mankind, created all creation including that which we cannot see such as Jinn and Angels... etc... it's not HARD bro.

Anyway, on a side note, Thucydides never commented on the belief systems of the peoples he studied - I find it strange that you would prefer him over Herodotus, given that you are leaning towards monotheism and not scientology.

Scimi

[fschmidt]

Ya know bro, to be a Muslim, it's all about theology, and the theology of the Hebrews is the same as the theology of the Muslims. One God. No Partners, Not anthropomorhic, unimaginable - sent prophets an messengers to mankind, created all creation including that which we cannot see such as Jinn and Angels... etc... it's not HARD bro.

That's what I thought at first, which is why I asked the question of this thread. But I was told NO pretty clearly.

Anyway, on a side note, Thucydides never commented on the belief systems of the peoples he studied - I find it strange that you would prefer him over Herodotus, given that you are leaning towards monotheism and not scientology.

I guess I like Thucydides mostly for his style. He also seems to appreciate the importance of morality. On the philosophical side, I love Aristophanes. Yes he is a crude polytheist, but he really understands the importance of religion. The Greek polytheism was at least fairly abstract, no idols, and their gods collectively represented some of the same ideals that are God's will. So this is still far better than the later secularism of Plato's time which is morally bankrupt much like modern Western culture.

[Scimitar]

That's what I thought at first, which is why I asked the question of this thread. But I was told NO pretty clearly.

Let's leave that for God to judge :)

I guess I like Thucydides mostly for his style. He also seems to appreciate the importance of morality.

That he does, way better than Herodotus did. But I would also think, playing the morality card for an historian of his timeframe would have been a very pragmatic thing to do, So in that way, not surprising - but I do agree, he does the whole morality thing, pretty well. As is to be expected.

On the philosophical side, I love Aristophanes. Yes he is a crude polytheist, but he really understands the importance of religion.

Admittedly, I haven't really read much of him, mainly in quotes from web.

The Greek polytheism was at least fairly abstract, no idols, and their gods collectively represented some of the same ideals that are God's will.

The Greek gods, were quite abstract, but still, they were anthropomorphic, which is still idolatry according to the Abrahamic traditions.

So this is still far better than the later secularism of Plato's time which is morally bankrupt much like modern Western culture.

Can't really argue with the whole Plato's time being more morally fortified than today when compared to modern western values which seem to prefer vice over virtue. However, Morality being in better shape in Greece of Plato's time - I'm not sure that can be attributed towards the age of philosophy fruiting in ancient Greece.

There is however, eschatology, which can help to bridge the gap between studies, if knowing what our time is in relation to the proverbial end is what interests you. But I'd approach it comparatively.

Scimi

[fschmidt]

Admittedly, I haven't really read much of him [Aristophanes], mainly in quotes from web.

I highly recommend reading his short play "Clouds".

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00H9M61H8/

I consider this the best reactionary writing ever written.

Can't really argue with the whole Plato's time being more morally fortified than today when compared to modern western values which seem to prefer vice over virtue. However, Morality being in better shape in Greece of Plato's time - I'm not sure that can be attributed towards the age of philosophy fruiting in ancient Greece

This isn't what I said. I said that Plato's time was basically the same as ours, equally immoral. The main difference was that the Athenians were vastly more intelligent than Americans are. But all cultures go through the same cycle of rising with morality and then decaying with immorality.

[Scimitar]

Ah fair play, we are in agreement in principle I think. Thanks for the recommendation Schmidt, I'll deffo check this one out :)

Scimi

[Karl]

There is a way around this...just create another sect of Islam or Judaism where by you go by the Torah and Quran. Of course this would be heresy, but hey, that seems to be the modern way. You could go to a mosque on Friday and synagogue on Saturday. You could bring peace to Israel or Palestine and call it Palesrael or Israeltine...prolly be a war over the name for a thousand years but it could work maybe.

[Shamnadanu]

There is a way around this...just create another sect of Islam or Judaism where by you go by the Torah and Quran. Of course this would be heresy, but hey, that seems to be the modern way. You could go to a mosque on Friday and synagogue on Saturday. You could bring peace to Israel or Palestine and call it Palesrael or Israeltine...prolly be a war over the name for a thousand years but it could work maybe.

Allah is the creator sustainer ...Allah knows everything and every heart.The way you gather peace is by doing ibadah...Allah created sufferings so people gather close to Allah...
"This world is Prison for Musliks and Paradise for disbelievers"

[fschmidt]

There is a way around this...just create another sect of Islam or Judaism where by you go by the Torah and Quran. Of course this would be heresy, but hey, that seems to be the modern way. You could go to a mosque on Friday and synagogue on Saturday. You could bring peace to Israel or Palestine and call it Palesrael or Israeltine...prolly be a war over the name for a thousand years but it could work maybe.

I want to give this a serious response. Another sect of Judaism sure won't work, I can't even post to a jewish form without being banned. (And I am ethnically jewish.) Another sect of Islam is not going thrill members of mainstream Islam, and I have enough enemies.

To my original question "Can I follow the Old Testament in Islam?" the answer is no. But what about to the question: Can one follow the Old Testament AND Islam? In other words, follow both without associating the Old Testament with Islam. Why would anyone do this? Because while Islam may help with the afterlife or on the day of judgement, Islam currently is doing a fairly poor job at delivering immediate value in this life. (Islam did deliver in this area at the beginning, but something changed, and now it fails.) The Old Testament is focused on this life, not the afterlife. By studying the Old Testament, I have greatly improved my life here on earth. The Old Testament teaches one to accept reality and respond appropriately (not passively). It teaches how to organize strong communities that can work together to beat the world.

Most people don't know this, but the reason the Christianity conquered the world is because it began following the Old Testament. In particular, the English Puritans took the Old Testament very seriously and began following the principles of the Old Testament. The result was the British Empire. But things change, and over time Western Christianity changed and stopped following the Old Testament, and this is when the West began to go into decline. Of course I agree with Islam that Christian beliefs are misguided. But the point is that the Old Testament is a guide for how to succeed in this world, and anyone follows it, regardless of their beliefs, will succeed in this world.

I challenge any Muslim to find a conflict between the Old Testament and the Quran in required behavior (not in fact). There isn't any. This means that there is no conflict in following both at the same time. Follow the Quran for the afterlife, and follow the Old Testament to succeed in this life. Why not?

[Shamnadanu]

I want to give this a serious response. Another sect of Judaism sure won't work, I can't even post to a jewish form without being banned. (And I am ethnically jewish.) Another sect of Islam is not going thrill members of mainstream Islam, and I have enough enemies.

To my original question "Can I follow the Old Testament in Islam?" the answer is no. But what about to the question: Can one follow the Old Testament AND Islam? In other words, follow both without associating the Old Testament with Islam. Why would anyone do this? Because while Islam may help with the afterlife or on the day of judgement, Islam currently is doing a fairly poor job at delivering immediate value in this life. (Islam did deliver in this area at the beginning, but something changed, and now it fails.) The Old Testament is focused on this life, not the afterlife. By studying the Old Testament, I have greatly improved my life here on earth. The Old Testament teaches one to accept reality and respond appropriately (not passively). It teaches how to organize strong communities that can work together to beat the world.

Most people don't know this, but the reason the Christianity conquered the world is because it began following the Old Testament. In particular, the English Puritans took the Old Testament very seriously and began following the principles of the Old Testament. The result was the British Empire. But things change, and over time Western Christianity changed and stopped following the Old Testament, and this is when the West began to go into decline. Of course I agree with Islam that Christian beliefs are misguided. But the point is that the Old Testament is a guide for how to succeed in this world, and anyone follows it, regardless of their beliefs, will succeed in this world.

I challenge any Muslim to find a conflict between the Old Testament and the Quran in required behavior (not in fact). There isn't any. This means that there is no conflict in following both at the same time. Follow the Quran for the afterlife, and follow the Old Testament to succeed in this life. Why not?

Chapter Name:Al-Emran Verse No:10



وَاعْتَصِمُواْ بِحَبْلِ اللّهِ جَمِيعًا وَلاَ تَفَرَّقُواْ وَاذْكُرُواْ نِعْمَتَ اللّهِ عَلَيْكُمْ إِذْ كُنتُمْ أَعْدَاء فَأَلَّفَ بَيْنَ قُلُوبِكُمْ فَأَصْبَحْتُم بِنِعْمَتِهِ إِخْوَانًا وَكُنتُمْ عَلَىَ شَفَا حُفْرَةٍ مِّنَ النَّارِ فَأَنقَذَكُم مِّنْهَا كَذَلِكَ يُبَيِّنُ اللّهُ لَكُمْ آيَاتِهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَهْتَدُونَ



And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allah (i.e. this Qur'an), and be not divided among yourselves,and remember Allah's Favour on you, for you were enemies one to another but He joined your hearts together, sothat, by His Grace, you became brethren (in Islamic Faith), and you were on the brink of a pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus Allah makes His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.,) clear to you, that you may be guided.

[Shamnadanu]

you can do da'wah call people towards islam...as Islam is the correct..Quran is in original form...bible have got fabrications ...because Allah is all knowing and trickful too....to test us....you can do dawah...take all good from everything without contradicting quran or hadith...make people understand that it is time to follow islam...keeping quran idle at home doesnt mean anything...read amd understand the miracle....look the verse above quoted...Allah knows everything...thats why...Allah is guiding us through quran...for those who take effort...our effort should be to understsnd quran...dont label it as only afterlife...it is Allah final revelation...so lots of unknown miracles facts science lies in it...

[Shamnadanu]

there are many known miracles...rest are unidentified
http://www.-----------------------/s...fic_index.html

[fschmidt]

And hold fast, all of you together, to the Rope of Allah (i.e. this Qur'an), and be not divided among yourselves,and remember Allah's Favour on you, for you were enemies one to another but He joined your hearts together, sothat, by His Grace, you became brethren (in Islamic Faith), and you were on the brink of a pit of Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus Allah makes His Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.,) clear to you, that you may be guided.

How does my suggestion conflict with this? Yes, if I followed Karl's suggestion and started another sect, then this would conflict. But I am not suggesting this. What I am saying is to remain in mainstream Islam and fully continue to follow the Quran, but at the same time also follow the principles of the Old Testament. Where is the conflict?

[Shamnadanu]

Allah is the best knower...i need some clarification...as i dont really dont know its principles...most important principles in every revelation is to worship Allah and so to assossciate no partners with Allah...and live for good..with good deeds...since last messenger came...it was advised for every person to upgrade to quran...which has everything clear...so if you love old testament you sure love quran...also it is very necessarily important to make other people who follow old revelations to upgrade to quran...so you should read Qur'an ...

[fschmidt]

you can do da'wah call people towards islam...as Islam is the correct..Quran is in original form...bible have got fabrications ...because Allah is all knowing and trickful too....to test us....you can do dawah...take all good from everything without contradicting quran or hadith...make people understand that it is time to follow islam...keeping quran idle at home doesnt mean anything...read amd understand the miracle....look the verse above quoted...Allah knows everything...thats why...Allah is guiding us through quran...for those who take effort...our effort should be to understsnd quran...dont label it as only afterlife...it is Allah final revelation...so lots of unknown miracles facts science lies in it...

Again I don't see any conflict. It is clear that the Quran worked in this life at the beginning. But it seems that some understanding of the Quran has been lost in Islam because Islam isn't nearly as successful today as it was in the beginning. This loss can be compensated for by studying the Old Testament. And I am not saying to study the Old Testament at the expense of the Quran. One can study both. I am doing this now.

I also agree that the Old Testament isn't perfect. But one doesn't need perfection to improve oneself. All that is required is for the Old Testament to retain enough of God's wisdom to help us become more successful in life.

[Shamnadanu]

Read about sahaba Abdullah ibn Salam...

[Shamnadanu]

i think the purpose of old testament or other old revelations are over or expired.morover it is fabricated it is not real TORAH given to moses ....if a medicine is expired even it is uselful as seems ..it is not prescribed by anyone to use it...in exchange you got a whole brand new medicine with no side effect...we should follow muhammed pbuh teachings and needs to be his ummah to reach paradise...in old centuries...one could be rishis or munis or do tapass in himalayan mountains as worship to God but in islam..it is compulsary to do salah

...what is use of creating a group of new sect...if it is for Allah... Allah needs it through islam only...Allah look at intention...do dawah...do salah..do fasting..etc


لا إله إلا الله محمد رسول الله

[fschmidt]

Allah is the best knower...i need some clarification...as i dont really dont know its principles...most important principles in every revelation is to worship Allah and so to assossciate no partners with Allah...and live for good..with good deeds...since last messenger came...it was advised for every person to upgrade to quran...which has everything clear...so if you love old testament you sure love quran...also it is very necessarily important to make other people who follow old revelations to upgrade to quran...so you should read Qur'an ...

As I am sure you know, the Quran contains a few inconsistent statements, and the last one is taken to be correct. But why did this happen? Did God make a mistake and correct it later? Of course not. What happened is that conditions changed, so at any given time, God gave the appropriate advice for the current conditions. The Quran was 100% perfect for the conditions of the time when it was given. But exactly the same is true of the Torah. It also was 100% perfect for the conditions of the time when it was given. Different conditions require different responses. The Quran works very well in a society where there is enlightened Muslim leadership. But where does this exist today? Nowhere. But it did exist in early Islam. The Torah gives advice that is less dependent on the quality of leadership. For example, the sabbath is needed when there is poor leadership for 2 reasons. One is to guarantee that workers aren't abused and have time for rest. And second, because everyone needs time to reflect on things when they live in a chaotic society. There is much less need for the sabbath in a society with good government, which is why it wasn't emphasized in the Quran. But I would say that the sabbath is needed today. This is one example, but I can provide you with many more if you want.

[Shamnadanu]

Brother conditions is what Allah gives... Muhammed pbuh the leader of our ummah faced so much hardships...today it is lesser....our duty is to do dawah and improve our conditions...this is what we got to achieve...we need to suffer the pain which Allah put on us....Its not Allah got mistake...its us we are mistaken...Allah created this programming...we are some sort of dynamic commands in it....Allah test us with everything that can spoil our faith....at the time one with sabr(patience) wins .if you understand more of it...mufti menk or ahmed deedat lectures would be benficial...we cannot make this world peace...


Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wasallam) said: “The world is a prison for a believer and Paradise for a non-believer.” [Muslim]

http://dailyhadith.adaptivesolutions...99s-Prison.htm

[Shamnadanu]

Don't limit quran you can ask of any help from authentic hadiths and quran.....on here or ummah.com or forums or Alims nearby


even though i am not an Alim...i dont limit quran as ineffective on current society...quran is very effective thats why its the last revelation.....we need eeman actually win this life...so i know whatever you need for there is answer from quran or guidance from hadiths........

[azc]

How does my suggestion conflict with this? Yes, if I followed Karl's suggestion and started another sect, then this would conflict. But I am not suggesting this. What I am saying is to remain in mainstream Islam and fully continue to follow the Quran, but at the same time also follow the principles of the Old Testament. Where is the conflict?

No, not at all. A Muslim will have to follow the Quran and sunnah... What you like, nobody cares..

[Shamnadanu]

dear schmidt...its okay ..i understand you...there is a group called tableegh jamaat you can contact such people...or any other community near you...i know you meant its not another sect...you meant to guide existing fellow jews and Christian s who follow old testament and correct their belief and invite to quran and sunnah on mainstream...its really nice to hear...only struggle is not to take anything which contradict with anything else...i think so....


Jazakallah khair...May Allah purify our intentions ...guide us correct path and to jannah ...give us courage to do da'wah....Ya Allah its only for you....

[Scimitar]

What I am saying is to remain in mainstream Islam and fully continue to follow the Quran, but at the same time also follow the principles of the Old Testament. Where is the conflict?

In principle, there is none.

In practice - there would be.

Schmidt, can you define for me, what it is you refer to exactly when you say "follow the principles of the Old Testament"???

Scimi

[fschmidt]

Brother conditions is what Allah gives... Muhammed pbuh the leader of our ummah faced so much hardships...today it is lesser....our duty is to do dawah and improve our conditions...this is what we got to achieve...we need to suffer the pain which Allah put on us....Its not Allah got mistake...its us we are mistaken...Allah created this programming...we are some sort of dynamic commands in it....Allah test us with everything that can spoil our faith....at the time one with sabr(patience) wins .if you understand more of it...mufti menk or ahmed deedat lectures would be benficial...we cannot make this world peace...

Rasul Allah (sal Allahu alaihi wasallam) said: “The world is a prison for a believer and Paradise for a non-believer.” [Muslim]

http://dailyhadith.adaptivesolutions...99s-Prison.htm

When I read this, I see implied passivity. The Old Testament is strongly against passivity. Muhammad is a good example of how a person should behave. He was active, not passive. He improved his own conditions and the conditions of his followers. He made the most of life instead of just waiting for death.

you meant to guide existing fellow jews and Christian s who follow old testament and correct their belief and invite to quran and sunnah on mainstream

Actually Jews and Christians don't follow the Old Testament at all. This may surprise you, but I think Muslims are closer to the spirit of the Old Testament than Jews and (modern) Christians are. And that is one reason why I am here.

What you like, nobody cares..

True, unfortunately. Almost nobody cares about the Old Testament. But you can't blame me for trying to find others who share my enthusiasm.

Schmidt, can you define for me, what it is you refer to exactly when you say "follow the principles of the Old Testament"???

I gave the sabbath as one example. There is a small group of us who read the Old Testament together online and discuss applying the principles to life. Today we discussed the topic of practical compromise. Both Abraham and David were very practical people who compromised when necessary to achieve their goals. The idea of resigning to one's "fate" is very much contrary to the Old Testament. Life is supposed to be a struggle, and if you understand God's will, then you have a good chance of winning. We also discussed the Tower of Babel and the danger of giant cultural empires. Diversity is needed. Anyone who wants to understand our thinking is welcome to join one of our Old Testament readings.

[Karl]

I want to give this a serious response. Another sect of Judaism sure won't work, I can't even post to a jewish form without being banned. (And I am ethnically jewish.) Another sect of Islam is not going thrill members of mainstream Islam, and I have enough enemies.

To my original question "Can I follow the Old Testament in Islam?" the answer is no. But what about to the question: Can one follow the Old Testament AND Islam? In other words, follow both without associating the Old Testament with Islam. Why would anyone do this? Because while Islam may help with the afterlife or on the day of judgement, Islam currently is doing a fairly poor job at delivering immediate value in this life. (Islam did deliver in this area at the beginning, but something changed, and now it fails.) The Old Testament is focused on this life, not the afterlife. By studying the Old Testament, I have greatly improved my life here on earth. The Old Testament teaches one to accept reality and respond appropriately (not passively). It teaches how to organize strong communities that can work together to beat the world.

Most people don't know this, but the reason the Christianity conquered the world is because it began following the Old Testament. In particular, the English Puritans took the Old Testament very seriously and began following the principles of the Old Testament. The result was the British Empire. But things change, and over time Western Christianity changed and stopped following the Old Testament, and this is when the West began to go into decline. Of course I agree with Islam that Christian beliefs are misguided. But the point is that the Old Testament is a guide for how to succeed in this world, and anyone follows it, regardless of their beliefs, will succeed in this world.

I challenge any Muslim to find a conflict between the Old Testament and the Quran in required behavior (not in fact). There isn't any. This means that there is no conflict in following both at the same time. Follow the Quran for the afterlife, and follow the Old Testament to succeed in this life. Why not?

Well just be Jewish following the Old Testament. I thought the Torah was the Old Testament and if it is, just be an authentic Jew instead of all these modern heretics that call themselves Jewish. But if you need friends just convert to Islam. It is a combination of the Old Testament and New Testament and more.

The reason the English and other European Christians ruled is because they were really heathens with a Christian label. They were a pack of brigands that never really followed Christianity and still are. They are Legion.

[Scimitar]

There is a small group of us who read the Old Testament together online and discuss applying the principles to life. Today we discussed the topic of practical compromise. Both Abraham and David were very practical people who compromised when necessary to achieve their goals. The idea of resigning to one's "fate" is very much contrary to the Old Testament. Life is supposed to be a struggle, and if you understand God's will, then you have a good chance of winning. We also discussed the Tower of Babel and the danger of giant cultural empires. Diversity is needed. Anyone who wants to understand our thinking is welcome to join one of our Old Testament readings.

Sounds a bit like the old 'wake up project' but with Qur'an and Hadeeth and 24/7 lol

Scimi

[Karl]

there are many known miracles...rest are unidentified
http://www.-----------------------/s...fic_index.html

One miracle I know is that the foulest excrement buried around a fruit tree makes the most delicious of fruit. Same goes for vegetables.

[Karl]

Sounds a bit like the old 'wake up project' but with Qur'an and Hadeeth and 24/7 lol

Scimi

One thing about the Old Testament, it is very Jewish supremacist so it wouldn't go down well with other races.

[fschmidt]

One thing about the Old Testament, it is very Jewish supremacist so it wouldn't go down well with other races.

Not true. The word "jew" doesn't even appear in the Torah. The Old Testament is about the Israelites which was a nation based on religion, not ethnicity. Israel was essentially the same idea as the Ummah of Islam. And the Old Testament is explicitly and repeatedly against racism. Moses had to wives, one a Midianite (presumably arab), and the other Ethiopian (black). When Aaron complained about Moses's second wife, God cursed Aaron for this. And in the story of Ruth, Ruth was welcomed into Israel even though she was a Moabite which was one of the greatest enemies of the Israelites.

Judaism really had to twist the Old Testament in the Talmud to justify its racism. The result is quite absurd. For example, when I asked a rabbi about Moses's second wife, he denied that this story was literal and insisted that it was somehow figurative in way that is consistent with Talmudic racism.

[Karl]

Not true. The word "jew" doesn't even appear in the Torah. The Old Testament is about the Israelites which was a nation based on religion, not ethnicity. Israel was essentially the same idea as the Ummah of Islam. And the Old Testament is explicitly and repeatedly against racism. Moses had to wives, one a Midianite (presumably arab), and the other Ethiopian (black). When Aaron complained about Moses's second wife, God cursed Aaron for this. And in the story of Ruth, Ruth was welcomed into Israel even though she was a Moabite which was one of the greatest enemies of the Israelites.

Judaism really had to twist the Old Testament in the Talmud to justify its racism. The result is quite absurd. For example, when I asked a rabbi about Moses's second wife, he denied that this story was literal and insisted that it was somehow figurative in way that is consistent with Talmudic racism.

But didn't the "Israelites" go around conquering and killing other tribes in the name of the "One True God". Didn't Jesus (PBUH) preach tolerance and love and that is why he was hated by the ruling "Israelites"? So that is why Islam is better than the Old Testament because it has the messages of the Messiah within it.

[fschmidt]

But didn't the "Israelites" go around conquering and killing other tribes in the name of the "One True God". Didn't Jesus (PBUH) preach tolerance and love and that is why he was hated by the ruling "Israelites"? So that is why Islam is better than the Old Testament because it has the messages of the Messiah within it.

The Israelites conquered and killed other tribes when necessary, just as Muhammad and early Islam did. The Israelites were tolerant of other tribes that didn't threaten them. For example in Jeremiah 35, God tells Jeremiah to respect the Rechabites (another tribe/people) because they are good people who keep to their traditions. I think there is a lot in common between the early Israelites and early Islam.

[Simple_Person]

@fshmidt

, I have read through the pages, all though some comments not in detail to be honest, what i found reading the comments especially the comments that you posted.

Your heart (desires) lies in the Old Testament. When ones heart lies somewhere else, an individual will try to find whatever excuse there is to still want to follow what his heart desires. This whole topic has not been about the intellectual debate whatsoever. By default brother, you already have "won" this whole discussion with other brothers and sisters. As many times we ourselves want to justify our decision by lying to ourselves as.. "i have had the intellectual discussion and those guys had nothing to bring against my argument", while in fact you already had your answer so to say and want to "convince" your mind also that you were right and others were wrong.

An individual is ALWAYS right when the heart is involved in the discussion. As whatever is being used as an argument against the argument of this individual somehow the heart finds something to twist it. You will see that that individual will NEVER agree ..and i mean NEVER!!

This for example you see also with many atheists as well. Their desires (hopes) are in finding this "missing link" and science is the ONLY answer forward. However a conclusion is made based on factual evidence and NOT something abstract as hope. The other day i was reading some reviews about a book "The message from water" - Masru Emoto. A review looked very more like it was from an atheist, said that he found it was a bad book, because the author/scientist was doing all kind of prayers and see the outcome of the crystals in the water. If it for example would change the crystals. While he(reviewer) wanted to see the "scientific aspect" of it, while by logic one could say this reviewer doesn't even know what science is all about. Somebody who brands him or herself a student of knowledge is open for all the knowledge. That individual who wrote the review, would not even ponder about ..that indeed is odd that water reacts on good words and bad words and on prayers etc. This because the individuals heart already is fixed on nothing to have to do with religion, rather "science" is the answer and will ONLY answer everything. While science is all around is, but that individual wants "HIS/HER" version of "science".

This is my observation of your current situation, do please ponder about what i have just said. As it will not effect me, i will go in my grave and you will go in your grave. Hopefully you will have some benefit from my comment, if you say "no, i don't" then treat it as if i did not comment at all.

Peace

[anatolian]

... I think there is a lot in common between the early Israelites and early Islam.

I even have a theory on that. Islam is the repeat of Israelites after a 2000 years period. I am planning to start a thread for this specific topic in future.

But my question to you, do you believe in God? You say you follow Old Testament instead of evil modern culture but is your purpose of doing this only for a moral life or do you really believe in God? Please don't misunderstand me, I just want to understand what you believe.

And if you believe in God and that Old Testament was revealed by God, do you also believe Quran was revealed by "the same God"? Excuse me if you have already revealed these things previously. I couldn not read all posts.

[Karl]

The Israelites conquered and killed other tribes when necessary, just as Muhammad and early Islam did. The Israelites were tolerant of other tribes that didn't threaten them. For example in Jeremiah 35, God tells Jeremiah to respect the Rechabites (another tribe/people) because they are good people who keep to their traditions. I think there is a lot in common between the early Israelites and early Islam.

So they were pretty much like the USA then? That's why so many "Israelites" live there.

[fschmidt]

This whole topic has not been about the intellectual debate whatsoever.

This wasn't intended for debate. I am trying to get answers, to see what is possible. My first question was whether one can follow the Old Testament in Islam, and the answer that I got was NO. My second question was whether one can follow the Old Testament and Islam separately. I have seen no strong objections to this, I think the answer is YES. Of course one will take precedence. In my case, I will follow the Old Testament and follow some aspects of the Quran, and not become Muslim. And in the case of Muslims, I hope they at least try to get some understanding of the Old Testament and follow those aspects of it that they find helpful to them.

[fschmidt]

I even have a theory on that. Islam is the repeat of Israelites after a 2000 years period. I am planning to start a thread for this specific topic in future.

But my question to you, do you believe in God? You say you follow Old Testament instead of evil modern culture but is your purpose of doing this only for a moral life or do you really believe in God? Please don't misunderstand me, I just want to understand what you believe.

And if you believe in God and that Old Testament was revealed by God, do you also believe Quran was revealed by "the same God"? Excuse me if you have already revealed these things previously. I couldn not read all posts.

I believe in God, but my concept of God is probably very far from most here. Coming from an atheistic scientific background, I see God as a force of nature (or possibly all combined forces of nature). This force supports moral cultures and destroys immoral cultures. The existance of this force is clearly evident in history. And this force is very accurately described in the Old Testament by means of personifying it. I do not believe in heaven or hell or in the day of judgement. None of these things are in the Old Testament. The Old Testament clearly says that the reward for moral behavior is the future success of that society.

For me, to say that something is revealed by God is like saying that science is revealed by nature. True science that is revealed by nature has the power to predict experimental results. True scripture that is revealed by God has the power to produce successful moral societies. So by this measure, the Old Testament and the Quran were revealed by (the same) God.

One thing that God-based religions seem to agree on is that God is beyond understanding. This should make it acceptable for different people to have different understandings of God, as long as they all try to do God's will where doing God's will is defined as doing what God supports and avoiding what God punishes.

[Simple_Person]

This wasn't intended for debate. I am trying to get answers, to see what is possible. My first question was whether one can follow the Old Testament in Islam, and the answer that I got was NO. My second question was whether one can follow the Old Testament and Islam separately. I have seen no strong objections to this, I think the answer is YES. Of course one will take precedence. In my case, I will follow the Old Testament and follow some aspects of the Quran, and not become Muslim. And in the case of Muslims, I hope they at least try to get some understanding of the Old Testament and follow those aspects of it that they find helpful to them.

Brother, your reply to brother @anatolian says exactly what i mean by referring to your desires what you want it to be the truth. In that reply you say this

"I believe in God, but my concept of God is probably very far from most here. Coming from an atheistic scientific background, I see God as a force of nature (or possibly all combined forces of nature)." ".....I do not believe in heaven or hell or in the day of judgement..." "...For me, to say that something is revealed by God is like saying that science is revealed by nature...."

Look at the parts that i made bold these parts clearly show a subjective view (desires) of what YOU want it to be. I was myself a born Muslim and i became an atheist. After being a atheist for 7 years i started to ask questions, because as you said, society and the rulings in society were going against basic human nature. As an example, breaking your heart because of love..seems something "natural" to society, but logically speaking..it is strange that this can be branded as something natural.

The question off course is, WHY did i end up with Islam in the end? I do not follow what I want to be this or that. I follow PURE logic, rationality and reason. The concept of this logic, rationality and reason is kind of easy to be honest.

You look in to the scriptures and if you are not a scholar yourself, you look at debates between religions as in debates certain critical questions are being asked. When those questions are being asked, i listen to the answer and i ponder about the answer. If for example celibacy is mentioned as being something part of religion, i say..this cannot be, as this goes against the basic human nature of desiring intimacy. It is NOT what i want it to be, of course being able to practice celibacy would be a stress free life without all the worries in life with your spouse ;D, but i look at logic, rationality and reason. These says..NO, desiring intimacy is part of the human nature. So, every religion that literally practices celibacy automatically falls off the list of being PURELY the truth. Truth partly might indeed contain in that religion, but not in full.

Doing this with all kind of questions/answers and looking at them from a logical, rational and reasonable point of view with scientific evidence if available, brought me in the end to Islam. BTW, i also look the same way with atheism and agnosticism.

So now again the question, do i follow what I WANT the religion to be? Nope. Because if it was up to me..i would have LOVED to not have a Day of Judgement like you, but it is not what i want, it is what logic, rationality and reason brings you to.

You think Islam is easy? Brother, Islam is the MOST difficult religion on this face of earth in the PRESENT times..in the past maybe less, but in the present day. Because Islam teaches you to turn 180 degrees the other way, and don't do certain things that you for example were doing. Like if one would LOVE to gossip as gossiping gives you the ability to make friends easily and connect with people. However, although this might be one of the most difficult religions in the present day, it is the truth based on logic, rationality and reason and your heart becomes content in NOT doing for example those things.

So Islam is all about surrender yourself, in everything. You give up all the things, not for the sake of giving up, but also are encouraged to seek out WHY you should give up certain things. As to all of the things that Islam prohibits of doing or encouraged in to doing, there is wisdom behind it.

Do what you "want" to do, but my advice to you is be a bit more critical in your choice as when you end up in your grave and you suddenly realizes that indeed your life you have only been pursuing what YOU want things to be, the story become rather more complicated if after death wasn't what YOU wanted to be. ;)

Peace

[fschmidt]

Look at the parts that i made bold these parts clearly show a subjective view (desires) of what YOU want it to be. I was myself a born Muslim and i became an atheist. After being a atheist for 7 years i started to ask questions, because as you said, society and the rulings in society were going against basic human nature. As an example, breaking your heart because of love..seems something "natural" to society, but logically speaking..it is strange that this can be branded as something natural.

The question of course is, WHY did i end up with Islam in the end? I do not follow what I want to be this or that. I follow PURE logic, rationality and reason. The concept of this logic, rationality and reason is kind of easy to be honest.

I don't choose my beliefs based on what I want to believe. I may want to believe that I am young and handsome, but I know otherwise. I choose my beliefs based on what I consider most likely to be true. That is my only criteria.

Different people can seek truth with equal honesty and come to different conclusions. This is simply the result of the fact that different people think differently.

I agree with you about celibacy. God (and evolution) said to be fruitful and multiply. Celibacy violates this. So I agree to cross off my list those religions that support celibacy.

On the other hand, I see no evidence in support of the Day of Judgement. This is actually my biggest problem with the Quran (because it stresses this idea). All of the ideas in the Old Testament have external evidence supporting them from science or history. The Day of Judgement has no such supporting evidence. But note that I am agnostic on this question in the sense that there is no evidence against the idea of a Day of Judgement either.

Islam may not be easy, but I think my religion is harder. It is very hard to follow a religion that almost no one else follows. The path of least resistance would be to give in to some popular religion like Islam and then gain wide acceptance for myself through this. But I don't take the path of least resistance. Instead, I always seek truth no matter how lonely the path there may be.

[Simple_Person]

I don't choose my beliefs based on what I want to believe. I may want to believe that I am young and handsome, but I know otherwise. I choose my beliefs based on what I consider most likely to be true. That is my only criteria.

Different people can seek truth with equal honesty and come to different conclusions. This is simply the result of the fact that different people think differently.

I agree with you about celibacy. God (and evolution) said to be fruitful and multiply. Celibacy violates this. So I agree to cross off my list those religions that support celibacy.

On the other hand, I see no evidence in support of the Day of Judgement. This is actually my biggest problem with the Quran (because it stresses this idea). All of the ideas in the Old Testament have external evidence supporting them from science or history. The Day of Judgement has no such supporting evidence. But note that I am agnostic on this question in the sense that there is no evidence against the idea of a Day of Judgement either.

Islam may not be easy, but I think my religion is harder. It is very hard to follow a religion that almost no one else follows. The path of least resistance would be to give in to some popular religion like Islam and then gain wide acceptance for myself through this. But I don't take the path of least resistance. Instead, I always seek truth no matter how lonely the path there may be.

Again, read the parts that i made bold. You say in the first bold part that you don't choose what you want to believe, yet you say what i consider most likely to be the truth. Truth is not based on what you find it most likely to be the truth, truth is clear from falsehood. Truth is already shown without you giving your opinion. Truth is based on objectivity.

Another question that you may want to ponder about is, how come of all the religions i choose Islam? When investigating honesty, you come to a believe that is based on objective evidence. For example atheist, they BELIEVE in evolution theory because they base their believe on factual evidence. However the critical thinker, doesn't look what has been found, but he also would look what has NOT been found. This is the typical evolution theory of that they tend to talk only about the findings, but never about what has not been found. So it is a believe based on factual evidence in combination with HOPING that the missing link will be found one day. Also they are not found of talking about things that science hasn't proven yet, being for example "missing link" and "what came before the big bang" as this question for example is hard to answer.

In my case, Muslims CLAIM that they have some evidence that confirms of a Creator. What is this evidence? They CLAIM it is the Qur'an. In their claim also, is that this book does not contain any errors. So if we would follow the road of logic, rationality and reason would bring us to a simple question.

Primary question: Does this book indeed not contain any errors?

If we based on this question branch things out, we have to keep certain factors in mind before going and investigating the primary question.

Factors:

- Muslims claim that this Creator of theirs is PERFECT. Perfect in what sense? That He knows everything, that he makes NO mistakes and that He has Creator everything. So if somebody indeed has created something, then that certain individual KNOWS exactly how that certain creation works to the detail if asked about.
- Human beings are faulty so IMPERFECT.
- Human beings are BOUND to make mistakes as their nature is imperfect. They are limited in all sort of things.
- A translation of the Qur'an is made by human beings, so by DEFAULT it will contain errors. So the ORIGINAL one should be investigated not a translation. As Muslims claims the ORIGINAL is perfect.

We have now created a little foundation to start from and made a scope for the research.

One can take all kind of approaches, but lets look a the SCIENTIFIC FACTS that will not even change over 100 years. You look what has been talked about in the Qur'an and you compare it with scientific facts of today that have been branded 100% true. You look if the Qur'an goes against it or not? If Qur'an says something that is NOT according to this scientific facts, then by default it is false and has been made by human beings. As human beings are imperfect and thus make errors.

You can take all kind of scientific categories and compare them if they have been talked about...be it, human psychology, astronomy, biology, etc. etc. etc.

So to make things a bit easier for other readers as well. If one would investigate 100 things that have been talked about. If 99 are correct and 1 is false, by default Qur'an has been made by human beings. If 100 things out of 100 are correct, then by DEFAULT the Qur'an has NOT been made by Human Beings but by somebody else.

So to do this research if you truly do not trust anybody, one MUST learn Arabic language to very advance level. So you know what you are reading. If somebody says i "don't" have time, then by default you are wrong and Qur'an is right, as you are not accepting it is the truth, but even more scarier, you do NOT follow the scientific approach of analyzing it. You rather follow your own desires. When one would die because he or she automatically would have branded the Qur'an as false without investigating it and there IS a Day of Judgement. That individual has NO argument to say why he or she did not follow Islam. So that individual is by default a loser based on his or her own desires.

I have also heard this question. Well if it would be from the Creator, then why did he not make it in all the languages? Have you ever thought about it, that there are all kind of people? Some will not follow it whatsoever and some will follow the truth by whatever means. So having it especially made in a foreign language, people who truly show honesty and are in pursuit of finding the truth, they will sacrifice this life for it. We have a brain, so nothing can stop us to learn a knew language.

So the conclusion of the primary question, would give you two possible outcomes.

- It contains errors thus it has been made by humans. FULL STOP!! and thus false.
- It does NOT contain errors, thus it has NOT been made by humans. Who has made it then? That is another question and another research.

This same procedure NEEDS to be done with ALL the scriptures, if you truly are a individual who is searching for the truth.

"And say, "Truth has come, and falsehood has departed. Indeed is falsehood, [by nature], ever bound to depart." Qur'an 17:81

As you can see, i have NOT used any of what I WANT it to be. Just PURE logic, rationality and reason. If you still disagree with maybe i have something wrong in this comment, do please correct me. However if you disagree with the method, this shows to you that you are not really searching for the OBJECTIVE truth. You are searching for SUBJECTIVE truth. In that case, i wish you a good life my friend.

Peace

[Simple_Person]

"Islam may not be easy, but I think my religion is harder. It is very hard to follow a religion that almost no one else follows. The path of least resistance would be to give in to some popular religion like Islam and then gain wide acceptance for myself through this. But I don't take the path of least resistance. Instead, I always seek truth no matter how lonely the path there may be."

I forgot to comment on this part as well. The hardest religion is not the one being lonely, it is the one being worked against it. Because when you are being worked against it, loneliness will also become part of it. In Islam for example now a days people go to extremes. Brothers and sisters ..just believe in a God ..and that is enough.. you are being extreme by praying 5 daily prayers (propaganda/brainwashing/doubt created by them). Or you have that other extreme of people wanting you to have mentality of ISIS..killing everybody that does not follow their way.

Then also you have people ..that see you as a Muslim and attack you. Or not getting a job because of your name or because of your religion.

[anatolian]

I believe in God, but my concept of God is probably very far from most here. Coming from an atheistic scientific background, I see God as a force of nature (or possibly all combined forces of nature). This force supports moral cultures and destroys immoral cultures. The existance of this force is clearly evident in history. And this force is very accurately described in the Old Testament by means of personifying it. I do not believe in heaven or hell or in the day of judgement. None of these things are in the Old Testament. The Old Testament clearly says that the reward for moral behavior is the future success of that society.

For me, to say that something is revealed by God is like saying that science is revealed by nature. True science that is revealed by nature has the power to predict experimental results. True scripture that is revealed by God has the power to produce successful moral societies. So by this measure, the Old Testament and the Quran were revealed by (the same) God.

One thing that God-based religions seem to agree on is that God is beyond understanding. This should make it acceptable for different people to have different understandings of God, as long as they all try to do God's will where doing God's will is defined as doing what God supports and avoiding what God punishes.

My friend, you don't have a so true understanding of God from Islamic pov. In Islam we believe God is indeed a "Person" not just a force. Who is speaking to Moses? A force can't speak. Persons speak. We humans have personalities and this makes us superior to other things. Do you think we have something "superior" to God?

[Shamnadanu]

I did hear a lot of stories about leader of isis is a jew.A false leader is enough.

Today we are influenced by media.which is funded by persons and organisation.we can manipulate any news with power and cash.It is media campaign bro which name terrorist as muslims..isis is not killing christians of jews or people who are against them...they are killing innocent people...their target is Muslims..it is very clear..its a psychological move by various agencies. Brother if you need to be up in heaven...you have to suffer....today there is fire test is for muslims..a muslim undergoes through humiliation.mental and psychological loneliness deppression...a muslim gains strength through prayers constant thought of Allah makes him understand life is too short.

Hardships creates eeman in muslims..A muslim or daee inspires everyone with challenging to all extremes and hardships withhis own life peacefully...i don't think highest among the muslims is one who have more followers in fb...or imams etc...Allah created different tests for different people...on daily basis we see a lot of interesting rare person s with lot of hardship living with dheen...so Allah knows the best


.Always believe this'Dont judge a book by its cover'

.Refer and learn from internet who funds these organization s who is creating killing kids and innocent muslims first...then talk


you are talking of ignorance ....a muslim cannot kill a muslim


can you be called a vegetarian if you eat meat...


NO! this is logic

i rarely read newspapers..bro spent time on quran and learning ilm

[Scimitar]

My friend, you don't have a so true understanding of God from Islamic pov. In Islam we believe God is indeed a "Person" not just a force. Who is speaking to Moses? A force can't speak. Persons speak. We humans have personalities and this makes us superior to other things. Do you think we have something "superior" to God?

DO not speak of what you do not know.

Scimi

[Scimitar]

And in the case of Muslims, I hope they at least try to get some understanding of the Old Testament and follow those aspects of it that they find helpful to them.

We have the best of doctrines, and it is complete - we do not need to support our faith with a previously revealed one, rather our faith of Islam, gives the older traditions some credit in the modern age by way of correction in belief, practice and spiritual insight.

Islam champions the people of the book - not the other way round bro Schmidt.

Scimi

[Shamnadanu]

Also ...Do not look at the followers...Sometimes followers are not aware of anything...Do thauba bro...pray in your nighttime...be practical bro...islam is practical lifestyle...not a theory or hypotheses which could be altered by time...Dooms day comes when there is no single muslim left...there are lot of subjects you need to understand...before runing yourself or your mind with a single subject...explore the hadiths which state of dooms day...how and how you will be judged on judgement day hadiths etc...Allah knows the best and best...so you can get to understand ultimately what will happen next
....ultimately in this life we all going to die.no person in this world don't doubt whether he/she dies...its 100%...why

[Scimitar]

Also ...Do not look at the followers...Sometimes followers are not aware of anything...Do thauba bro...pray in your nighttime...be practical bro...islam is practical lifestyle...not a theory or hypotheses which could be altered by time...Dooms day comes when there is no single muslim left...there are lot of subjects you need to understand...before runing yourself or your mind with a single subject...explore the hadiths which state of dooms day...how and how you will be judged on judgement day hadiths etc...Allah knows the best and best...so you can get to understand ultimately what will happen next
....ultimately in this life we all going to die.no person in this world don't doubt whether he/she dies...its 100%...why

Bro Shamnadanu, Schmidt doesn't look at the followers of any faith - rather he is investigating the Judaic faith with a comparative to Islam. It's a doctrinal enquiry. I find that to be quite commendable in all honesty - because he is honest in his method. I do not necessarily agree with his method, but I can appreciate his being honest in his investigation, enough to lay his cards flat on the table because he is looking for "answers" - and not to "debate".

He is seeking truth, via a comparative method.

Make dua for him in sha Allah. That Allah guide him to the truth, verily the guidance comes only from Allah.

Scimi

[anatolian]

DO not speak of what you do not know.

Scimi

Do not leave your comments without supporting your idea.

[Shamnadanu]

I have a friend who talks of God as force..blah blah....
only difference he is talking with vedas as success to life etc...i quoted some verse that God is not Imagination...Allah is real

can you donate both of your kidneys bro...and you eyes...every little part is important as it is created by most most intelligent creator Allah...
an embryo changes into human form....
a seed into plant ..plants gives food...food is for humans...humans need sleep...Allah created sun....suns revolution provide day and nights...suns light provide plant to grow....sun gives warm on earth...earth needs sun ...again...earth revolves....there are different seasons....etc etc...think think...see how it ends...it never ends....we could understand it is all due a wonderful creator cherishes sustainer and merciful Allah is limitless and everlasting.. Allah could only manager this



it is impossible for us to believe that everything in universe is hard to understand btw we can call it by some name...we call Iron...what is it actually? we call fish ...jyst 4 letter to describe living miracles?!
if we think we couldnt even understand ourselves...that is why Quran is only accepted...and final....because rest scripturez and manipulated...most important is believe in Allah...if you dont have that...there is no value..


00000000 is valuless
100000 is valuable by infintity than 0000000000000000.....how much you put after it no value.....think with brain....not reply to whispering of the Devil ....as Believe that every human being got a devil too .....look at the world ...look at ourselves...we do mistakes too...who whispers us to sin or talk...understand Muhammed pbuh teachings....dont consider it as silly..

.May Allah gives all of us hidayah


sry my writing is bad i know..i m using old broken phone...mashallah least i got this to reply

[Scimitar]

Do not leave your comments without supporting your idea.

Touche lol ya got me.

Ok,

To claim Allah is a person, is to give Allah human qualities - something I find really quite out of context. The logic I use to arrive at this statement is simple.

Allah has endowed human beings with limited qualities from Allah's Asma was sifaat. These qualities we humans are endowed with are set in limitation.

For example - humans can be merciful - but our mercy is not even reflective of a percentage fraction compared to the perfected Mercy which Allah has made incumbent upon HIMSELF.

We humans are persons, our personalities given to us by Allah, but to say Allah is a person - humanizes Allah which is a form of anthropomorphism. Islamic theology doesn't teach that Allah is anthropomorphic, rather that HE is unimaginable.

Scimi

[Shamnadanu]

yep simply...for an ant who leads life in discipline ...a cat is unimaginable.. for a cat who spentvtime looking for fish a human being is unimaginable ...for a human being..who leads life for faith love etc...the galaxy...is unimaginable.....it goes....it goes....
the creator of everything .Allah...is mericiful at its highest is UNIMAGINABLE

[anatolian]

HE

Salam. I was planning to write it until I saw that you had written it yourself.

Allah is referred as "HU(HE)" for several times in Quran. Third person singular. This means to me He is a person. "Say: HE Allah is one"

Ofcourse what you say is correct. Our attributes are insignificant. Allah's attributes are eternal. This means He is the eternal person.

[Scimitar]

Salam. I was planning to write it until I saw that you had written it yourself.

Allah is referred as "HU(HE)" for several times in Quran. Third person singular. This means to me He is a person. "Say: HE Allah is one"

Ofcourse what you say is correct. Our attributes are insignificant. Allah's attributes are eternal. This means He is the eternal person.

No.

The problem with using the word "person" is that this is what the Christians do when they anthropomorphize God. TO some, he is a "person" with a long white beard who sits in the clouds - that's what the use of the word "person" does - it allows corruptions to set into the theology.

Allah never refers to Himself as a "person".

Also the idea of "person" is nuanced to belong to a "personality" - and personalities are not perfect - they are flawed - whereas Allah is perfect.

Scimi

[azc]

The Israelites conquered and killed other tribes when necessary, just as Muhammad and early Islam did. The Israelites were tolerant of other tribes that didn't threaten them. For example in Jeremiah 35, God tells Jeremiah to respect the Rechabites (another tribe/people) because they are good people who keep to their traditions. I think there is a lot in common between the early Israelites and early Islam.

No Muslims of first generation didn't kill their opponents but in defence. Do you know that only 459 kuffar were killed in 82 battles. Can you show me how many people were killed by Israelites...? Even their deviant ancestors killed the prophets a.s.

[fschmidt]

No Muslims of first generation didn't kill their opponents but in defence. Do you know that only 459 kuffar were killed in 82 battles. Can you show me how many people were killed by Israelites...? Even their deviant ancestors killed the prophets a.s.

How can you say this? There were more Banu Qurayza killed than your number.

[azc]

How can you say this? There were more Banu Qurayza killed than your number.

It was the punishment to them. They were sentenced to death for their breach of treaty

[Simple_Person]

It was the punishment to them. They were sentenced to death for their breach of treaty

The person who honestly is searching for the truth based on objectivity and would have investigated Islam based on objectivity and honesty, would already have known that. Every person who has honestly searched about the whole story of Banu Qurayza would not bring this even up as they have heard the whole story and seen that nothing is left but to indeed agree on it. What you are doing is try to show somebody something, but that individual doesn't want to open his eyes to look at what you are trying to show him. So my question to you, how can you point at something so somebody can see it, if he or she doesn't want to open their eyes to look at? If you would even describe it in words, that individual would say...what are you talking about..all i see is darkness (inside of his eyelids). Which indeed he IS RIGHT, as all he sees is the inside of his eyelids which is darkness.

I have had discussion with many people of different philosophies even people who call themselves Muslims, but all they show is nationalism. When you corner them with some questions that they can't answer, because that shows their dishonesty to themselves and to others who are following the discussion. They just shut and won't respond anymore.

I have had a discussion with a guy who said he was a Jew. Based on our discussion, all he did was have blind faith in something, like Christians blindly follow the concept of Jesus(as) dying for their sins. Every time i gave him a question that he couldn't answer..he would not reply or say..every religion has it's "errors"=_=!. When i gave him the argument that cornered him so much, he never responded again. Sub'han'Allah, that really made me speechless of how Allah(swt) talks about these dishonest people and the ingredients to guidance. I mean if you are so dishonest and you KNOW that you are wrong, how come you don't admit it?..all pride and arrogance. Thinking if you admit that you are wrong is sign of "weakness"=_=! while it is a sign of wisdom as you would gain more knowledge from the other person who is right.

Then you have people who are confused why Allah(swt) says he guides whom He wants to guide. I have observed MANY different people and especially tried to look at minor details in searching for the dishonesty. SUB'HAN'ALLAH..i was shocked by what i discovered. I have seen people who are weak in imaan do sins, but are very honest in their actions and do truly believe in a Creator. They admit in everything. I have also seen people who are not Muslims and having almost all the traits a Muslim should have minus the praying, fasting etc. but do have good character etc. The minor details when you observe their behavior show their dishonesty. When you corner them with the obvious argument, instead of them pondering about your argument, they try to hop on another subject of trying to debunk Islam. When you corner them also on that, after a while..they just get all agitated and show signs that they want to stop the discussion. Those people i leave them be, as they themselves are the cause of not being guided by Allah(swt).

Sadly when we have discussions online it is hard to directly reveal the dishonesty of the person you are having the discussion with. However, i would suggest to think of such question that corner people instantly. This saves you A LOT of time. Time that you could rather have spend on something that YOU would even benefited from. Da'wah is a good thing, but it is a waist of time when you try to discuss with a person who is not being honest in the first place.

[Shamnadanu]

The person who honestly is searching for the truth based on objectivity and would have investigated Islam based on objectivity and honesty, would already have known that. Every person who has honestly searched about the whole story of Banu Qurayza would not bring this even up as they have heard the whole story and seen that nothing is left but to indeed agree on it. What you are doing is try to show somebody something, but that individual doesn't want to open his eyes to look at what you are trying to show him. So my question to you, how can you point at something so somebody can see it, if he or she doesn't want to open their eyes to look at? If you would even describe it in words, that individual would say...what are you talking about..all i see is darkness (inside of his eyelids). Which indeed he IS RIGHT, as all he sees is the inside of his eyelids which is darkness.

I have had discussion with many people of different philosophies even people who call themselves Muslims, but all they show is nationalism. When you corner them with some questions that they can't answer, because that shows their dishonesty to themselves and to others who are following the discussion. They just shut and won't respond anymore.

I have had a discussion with a guy who said he was a Jew. Based on our discussion, all he did was have blind faith in something, like Christians blindly follow the concept of Jesus(as) dying for their sins. Every time i gave him a question that he couldn't answer..he would not reply or say..every religion has it's "errors"=_=!. When i gave him the argument that cornered him so much, he never responded again. Sub'han'Allah, that really made me speechless of how Allah(swt) talks about these dishonest people and the ingredients to guidance. I mean if you are so dishonest and you KNOW that you are wrong, how come you don't admit it?..all pride and arrogance. Thinking if you admit that you are wrong is sign of "weakness"=_=! while it is a sign of wisdom as you would gain more knowledge from the other person who is right.

Then you have people who are confused why Allah(swt) says he guides whom He wants to guide. I have observed MANY different people and especially tried to look at minor details in searching for the dishonesty. SUB'HAN'ALLAH..i was shocked by what i discovered. I have seen people who are weak in imaan do sins, but are very honest in their actions and do truly believe in a Creator. They admit in everything. I have also seen people who are not Muslims and having almost all the traits a Muslim should have minus the praying, fasting etc. but do have good character etc. The minor details when you observe their behavior show their dishonesty. When you corner them with the obvious argument, instead of them pondering about your argument, they try to hop on another subject of trying to debunk Islam. When you corner them also on that, after a while..they just get all agitated and show signs that they want to stop the discussion. Those people i leave them be, as they themselves are the cause of not being guided by Allah(swt).

Sadly when we have discussions online it is hard to directly reveal the dishonesty of the person you are having the discussion with. However, i would suggest to think of such question that corner people instantly. This saves you A LOT of time. Time that you could rather have spend on something that YOU would even benefited from. Da'wah is a good thing, but it is a waist of time when you try to discuss with a person who is not being honest in the first place.

Brother
Da'wah is not waste of time because
1.The things you wrote above is WISDOM you got by doing da'wah.you would know about it if you didnt do da'wah
2.Allah knows everything so Allah says in Qur'an varioud offers to a daee.Allah offers sure hidaya to the person who invites others...
A person who seeks rewards from Allah by doing Da'wah 100%get rewarded by Allah..than the person who hears it
3.It is Allah swt the changer of hearts...often we forget than...no persons heart is in our control
4.Have sabr...Surely Allah rewards for effort than result
5logic:we know we all will die..we live ..we struggle to get a job...get positions...get comfort etc... like that it is very importto da'wah and get wisdom...Da'wah is effort rewarded by Allah and never a waste of time..

i know how you feel ...always the one benefits is the speaker itself than the hearer.in that case sometimes we speak to Allah ...we dua to Allah...when we dua we benefits ourselves.Allah knows everything.

[Shamnadanu]

Allah says sure rewards to a Daee ...but not Allah says not about the people who just hears it

[anatolian]

No.

The problem with using the word "person" is that this is what the Christians do when they anthropomorphize God. TO some, he is a "person" with a long white beard who sits in the clouds - that's what the use of the word "person" does - it allows corruptions to set into the theology.

Allah never refers to Himself as a "person".

Also the idea of "person" is nuanced to belong to a "personality" - and personalities are not perfect - they are flawed - whereas Allah is perfect.

Scimi

The anthropomorphization of God is wrong and it exists in many other religions like Chirstianity. Pagan religions like Hinduism does it more but it has nothing to do with Allah being a person according to Islam. Quran doesn't describe Allah with a long white beard though there are some analogies like Allah's both hands being open. You mix these things. Allah's essence is unknown and cannot be known but we know "who" Allah is as much as He explained in Quran.

You contradict yourself still by refering to Allah as "Himself". Why don't you say "Itself"? Because Allah has a person and refeers to "Himself" as "Hu/He" in Quran.

It is human personalities which are imperfect. We don't apply our personalities to Allah. Allah has His eternal and perfect personality. We are the ones who have insignificant and imperfect personalities.

[Scimitar]

The anthropomorphization of God is wrong and it exists in many other religions like Chirstianity. Pagan religions like Hinduism does it more but it has nothing to do with Allah being a person according to Islam. Quran doesn't describe Allah with a long white beard though there are some analogies like Allah's both hands being open. You mix these things. Allah's essence is unknown and cannot be known but we know "who" Allah is as much as He explained in Quran.

You contradict yourself still by refering to Allah as "Himself". Why don't you say "Itself"? Because Allah has a person and refeers to "Himself" as "Hu/He" in Quran.

It is human personalities which are imperfect. We don't apply our personalities to Allah. Allah has His eternal and perfect personality. We are the ones who have insignificant and imperfect personalities.

The HE we use is a royal masculine and not a gender masculine bro.

SO again, you are wrong.

Scimi

[Simple_Person]

Brother
Da'wah is not waste of time because
1.The things you wrote above is WISDOM you got by doing da'wah.you would know about it if you didnt do da'wah
2.Allah knows everything so Allah says in Qur'an varioud offers to a daee.Allah offers sure hidaya to the person who invites others...
A person who seeks rewards from Allah by doing Da'wah 100%get rewarded by Allah..than the person who hears it
3.It is Allah swt the changer of hearts...often we forget than...no persons heart is in our control
4.Have sabr...Surely Allah rewards for effort than result
5logic:we know we all will die..we live ..we struggle to get a job...get positions...get comfort etc... like that it is very importto da'wah and get wisdom...Da'wah is effort rewarded by Allah and never a waste of time..

i know how you feel ...always the one benefits is the speaker itself than the hearer.in that case sometimes we speak to Allah ...we dua to Allah...when we dua we benefits ourselves.Allah knows everything.

Brother, you didn't understand what i tried to say. I have never said "Da'Wah is waste of time.". I would NEVER say that. What i said, is don't do da'wa to people who are dishonest to begin with. I mean indeed i have gained a lot of knowledge out of it (alhamdulillah), but because of this knowledge, i am swift in asking the right kind of questions to bring out the honesty or the dishonesty in a person. When somebody is honest, that is so to say the key to further have the discussion. If somebody is dishonest that is also the key to stop the discussion as it leads to nowhere. However, do keep in mind, although that individual might not be honest that you are having the discussion with, somebody else might read your discussion with him/her. So ask the right question to give the reader the brain food to ponder about. That individual that is dishonest, might not ponder about and indeed stop the discussion as it is waste of your time. But that question might be very beneficial for somebody else who is honest.

So i don't want somebody to convert because what i have said as i know and understand is not in my hands. My argument is only of people who are dishonest. For the honest person even, it can take many months to years before they even convert. Or maybe never convert, because they never indeed followed up the pondering. Somebody might be honest, but if he or she doesn't search for it, that is also then the case that they never would become Muslims. Many are very honest people here in the west, but their priorities are kind of messed up. They LOVE to read Harry Potter and other books that contain useless knowledge, but them reading the Qur'an.."nah..they suddenly are too busy =_=!".

Or they LOVE to ponder about the future of the story of a serie they are following (for example Game of Thrones), but pondering about what comes after death is a very scary thought. There is even the catch of you are more happy if you know less.

However always know the people you come in contact with will testify against you if you never spoken about the message of Islam OR showed them about the message of Islam with your character. As their argument on the Day of Judgement will be, that you came in to contact with them, yet you never spoke of Islam or showed anything that Islam represents. Words sometimes are just words. Character makes people already wonder what is going on. That this individual(you) is showing very strange behavior. He(you) is very honest, doesn't gossip, is reliable, is trustworthy. When somebody sees that in you, they suddenly want to hang out more often with you and want to know why you are how you are..despite the world being filled with thieves and liars.

So to be honest, for us Muslims it is SUPER easy to spread the message of Islam in these times. If we follow Islam, our character shines like a flashlight in the darkness.:D

[fschmidt]

The person who honestly is searching for the truth based on objectivity and would have investigated Islam based on objectivity and honesty, would already have known that. Every person who has honestly searched about the whole story of Banu Qurayza would not bring this even up as they have heard the whole story and seen that nothing is left but to indeed agree on it.

I am not sure what your point is, but I think you are taking this out of context. I am not arguing about whether or not killing the Banu Qurayza was justified. I am just pointing out the similarities between the early Israelites and the early Muslims, saying that both killed in self-defense. The killing of the Banu Qurayza was basically in self-defense which supports my point.

[Simple_Person]

I am not sure what your point is, but I think you are taking this out of context. I am not arguing about whether or not killing the Banu Qurayza was justified. I am just pointing out the similarities between the early Israelites and the early Muslims, saying that both killed in self-defense. The killing of the Banu Qurayza was basically in self-defense which supports my point.

They were trialed by their OWN law. Which also i believe is the same as Islamic Law, but they choose to be trialed by their own law in the case of treason. Which is the death penalty. So no you are not right. If their law would have been different then Islamic Law and not have been killed, then they would not have died so to say. So logically speaking you are absolutely NOT right.

[Serinity]

:salam:

Quran and the Sunnah is all you need. When we do stuff we have to Trust Allah :swt: BUT also TIE our camel (I.e. do it, not just be like "At home, doing nothing, Qadr of Allah. " )

One has to be ACTIVE and not PASSIVE. Yes. I don't really see your objection to following only the Quraan??

Allah said that This Book (The Quraan) is from Allah, and that He made NO deviance there in. (So it is free from any kind of deviance) So why the objection, I don't understand.

Allah :swt: knows best.

[Shamnadanu]

Doctors used arsenic and mercury to treat syphilisbefore the introduction of penicillin in the 1940s.

One company sold heroin tablets to relieve asthmasymptoms

Alhamdulillah.Allah swt knows everything.Qur'an is made guidance to Muslims. Muslim ummah are made to follow complete guidance from Qur'an in correct ways.

Allah said that This Book (The Quraan) is from Allah, and that He made NO deviance there in. (So it is free from any kind of deviance)

For your knowledge.Let us look into Old testament.why cannot we follow old testament.Old testament is not SUITABLE. because it got SIDE EFFECTS.



to be continued...

[azc]

I am not sure what your point is, but I think you are taking this out of context. I am not arguing about whether or not killing the Banu Qurayza was justified. I am just pointing out the similarities between the early Israelites and the early Muslims, saying that both killed in self-defense. The killing of the Banu Qurayza was basically in self-defense which supports my point.

He said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." (1 Kings 19:10)

[azc]

@fschimdt : Israelites were killers even of prophets. Do you still think they killed prophets in self defence..?

[anatolian]

Israelites persecuted their prophets and muslims persecuted their scholars..

[anatolian]

The HE we use is a royal masculine and not a gender masculine bro.

SO again, you are wrong.

Scimi

I dont say that anyway. Allah doesnt have a gender ofcourse but HE has a personality according to Quran. But, as you say it is beyond our capability to understand the essence of HIS personality

[Shamnadanu]

I dont say that anyway. Allah doesnt have a gender ofcourse but HE has a personality according to Quran. But, as you say it is beyond our capability to understand the essence of HIS personality

There are 99 attributes of Allah.It is not within our capacity to think of it.Can a cat think about human body?..Can a mosquite got capacity to think of a cats body?...Our purpose is not finding or discovering...Our purpose is to live practical worshipping Allah swt.Fear Allah..

[fschmidt]

He said, "I have been very zealous for the LORD, the God of hosts; for the sons of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars and killed Your prophets with the sword And I alone am left; and they seek my life, to take it away." (1 Kings 19:10)

This is not early Israel, it is centuries later.

[azc]

This is not early Israel, it is centuries later.

will you prove your statement by giving authentic evidences.

[fschmidt]

will you prove your statement by giving authentic evidences.

Moses - 1300s BC
Elijah - 800s BC

Do you need references?

[azc]

Moses - 1300s BCElijah - 800s BCDo you need references?

what about it:'' They killed the kings of Midian along with the rest of their slain: Evi and Rekem and Zur and Hur and Reba, the five kings of Midian; they also killed Balaam the son of Beor with the sword.'' (Numbers 31:8)

[azc]

The main story of Balaam occurs during the sojourn of the Israelites in the plains of Moab, east of the Jordan River, at the close of forty years of wandering, shortly before the death of Moses and the crossing of the Jordan. The Israelites have already defeated two kings in Transjordan: Sihon, king of the Amorites, and Og, king of Bashan. Balak, king of Moab, [3]consequently becomes alarmed, and sends elders of Midian and his Moabite messengers, [4]to Balaam, son of Beor, to induce him to come and curse Israel. Balaam's location, Pethor, is simply given as "which is by the river of the land of the children of his people" in the Masoretic Textand the Septuagint, though the Samaritan Pentateuch, Vulgate, and Syriac Peshittaall identify his land as Ammon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balaam

[fschmidt]

what about it:'' They killed the kings of Midian along with the rest of their slain: Evi and Rekem and Zur and Hur and Reba, the five kings of Midian; they also killed Balaam the son of Beor with the sword.'' (Numbers 31:8)

The Midianites tried to corrupt Israel. So this was self-defense. This is explained in Numbers 25.

The Lord told Moses: “Attack the Midianites and strike them dead. For they attacked you with the treachery that they used against you in the Peor incident. They did the same in the case involving their sister Cozbi, daughter of the Midianite leader who was killed the day the plague came at Peor.”
-- Numbers 25:16-18

[azc]

I referred to the killing of Balaam and his people in previous post. How you can say this killings was in self defence...? I think You accept him a prophet, a diviner, a magician, in contrast, a corrupted one as well........ But As a matter of fact Balaam himself was not a killer

[azc]

@fschmidt : Do think Balaam was an apostate...?

[fschmidt]

“Yet they are the ones who, at Balaam’s advice, incited the Israelites to unfaithfulness against the Lord in the Peor incident, so that the plague came against the Lord’s community.
-- Numbers 31:16

Balaam wasn't innocent. He wasn't apostate because he was never an Israelite, he was a priest of Midian.

Now you tell me, are you sure that every single member of Banu Qurayza was guilty of a crime? I doubt that. Sometime communities are held jointly liable.

[azc]

“Yet they are the ones who, at Balaam’s advice, incited the Israelites to unfaithfulness against the Lord in the Peor incident, so that the plague came against the Lord’s community.-- Numbers 31:16Balaam wasn't innocent. He wasn't apostate because he was never an Israelite, he was a priest of Midian.Now you tell me, are you sure that every single member of Banu Qurayza was guilty of a crime? I doubt that. Sometime communities are held jointly liable.

Balaam wasn't innocent. He wasn't apostate because he was never an Israelite, he was a priest of Midian

So this killing can't be justified as it was not in self defence. Plz clarify it

Now you tell me, are you sure that every single member of Banu Qurayza was guilty of a crime? I doubt that. Sometime communities are held jointly liable

their case was decided as per the rulings of torah. Children who hadn't reached to puberty and women were left alive, rest all the adult were considered liable for the collective effort to violate the treaty in order to exterminate the Muslim community as the whole.