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abo mussaab
12-02-2015, 07:20 AM
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ajr
12-02-2015, 09:20 AM
LOL:D This is funny
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Abz2000
12-02-2015, 09:52 AM
Some interesting info despite the murky presentation.
One thing we keep noticing is the constant allusions to forcing people's own will on others whereas a genuine believer's aim is always to enforce the will of Allah on earth according to Allah's guidance.
May Allah guide us all to His way so that we can live in peace and harmony in this world and achieve paradise after we inevitably return our souls.
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ajr
12-02-2015, 12:46 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
Some interesting info despite the murky presentation.
One thing we keep noticing is the constant allusions to forcing people's own will on others whereas a genuine believer's aim is always to enforce the will of Allah on earth according to Allah's guidance.
May Allah guide us all to His way so that we can live in peace and harmony in this world and achieve paradise after we inevitably return our souls.
Also interesting to note that we often hear 'Baghdadi, self appointed Amir, Illegitimate State...but how?...was his predecessor not Umar al Baghdadi? That would imply that there was an Amir before him isnt? That would further validate him being chosen as a successor, yes? So how is he self appointed?
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ardianto
12-02-2015, 02:53 PM
Originally Posted by ajr
Also interesting to note that we often hear 'Baghdadi, self appointed Amir, Illegitimate State...but how?...was his predecessor not Umar al Baghdadi? That would imply that there was an Amir before him isnt? That would further validate him being chosen as a successor, yes? So how is he self appointed?
If your neighbor declare himself as the ruler of his home, it's legitimate because he occupy the area of his home. But how if your neighbor declare himself as the ruler of your home too?. Would you legitimate him?.

If Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi declared himself only as the ruler of area that occupied by him, it might be legitimate. But the problem is, he declared himself as the ruler of global Muslims ummah although those global Muslims ummah are not living in his occupied territory. Yeah, how could someone who just rule a piece of land in Iraq and Syria declare himself as ruler of Muslims who live in Saudi, in Kuwait, in Morocco, etc?. Aren't those other Muslims have their own rulers too?.

Of course other Muslims refuse to accept him as their ruler. But the reaction from Al Baghdadi group was very surprising, they declare Muslims who do not accept him as ruler, as kuffar. So the conflict began.
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ajr
12-02-2015, 03:03 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
If your neighbor declare himself as the ruler of his home, it's legitimate because he occupy the area of his home. But how if your neighbor declare himself as the ruler of your home too?. Would you legitimate him?.

If Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi declared himself only as the ruler of area that occupied by him, it might be legitimate. But the problem is, he declared himself as the ruler of global Muslims ummah although those global Muslims ummah are not living in his occupied territory. Yeah, how could someone who just rule a piece of land in Iraq and Syria declare himself as ruler of Muslims who live in Saudi, in Kuwait, in Morocco, etc?. Aren't those other Muslims have their own rulers too?.

Of course other Muslims refuse to accept him as their ruler. But the reaction from Al Baghdadi group was very surprising, they declare Muslims who do not accept him as ruler, as kuffar. So the conflict began.
So you await Imam Mahdi?
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ardianto
12-02-2015, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by ajr
So you await Imam Mahdi?
I don't know when will Imam Mahdi come, and I don't know will I am still alive when he come?. So I focus to situation that are happening at the moment like poverty among Muslims.
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ajr
12-02-2015, 04:13 PM
ok

Jazakallah Khairan :statisfie
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Abz2000
12-02-2015, 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
I don't know when will Imam Mahdi come, and I don't know will I am still alive when he come?. So I focus to situation that are happening at the moment like poverty among Muslims.
Wouldn't that require a just Islamic governance system which implements zakah and abolishes usury, and is not having to spend it's manpower, resources and efforts on continuous war and rebuilding efforts after kafir bombing campaigns which keep the kafir usurer owned military industrial complex running on it's fuel of blood and diesel?
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ardianto
12-02-2015, 05:11 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
Wouldn't that require a just Islamic governance system which implements zakah and abolishes usury, and is not having to spend it's manpower, resources and efforts on continuous war and rebuilding efforts after kafir bombing campaigns which keep the kafir usurer owned military industrial complex running on it's fuel of blood and diesel?
Why should we wait government to obligate zakat if we can pay zakat without government obligate it?. Zakat is not an issue between us and government, but between us and Allah. Then if government does not abolish usury?. We can use our money to give loan without usury to those who need it.

We don't need to depend on government to do something that we must, and we can do.

:)
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ajr
12-02-2015, 05:21 PM
hmmm...



Originally Posted by ardianto
So I focus to situation that are happening at the moment like poverty among Muslims.
Who is responsible for the poverty???



Originally Posted by ardianto
Zakat is not an issue between us and government, but between us and Allah.
So why then did Abu Bakr (ra) go to war with people that didnt want to pay zakaah anymore???:hmm:
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Abz2000
12-02-2015, 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Why should we wait government to obligate zakat if we can pay zakat without government obligate it?. Zakat is not an issue between us and government, but between us and Allah. Then if government does not abolish usury?. We can use our money to give loan without usury to those who need it.

We don't need to depend on government to do something that we must, and we can do.

:)

The refraining from usury is definitely a duty upon the people and it is definitely a duty upon the government to enforce it.
Maybe read surah Al Baqarah and quote based upon truth rather than just making stuff up.

It is haram and a breach of trust (khiyaanatulamaanah) that a government co-ordinates with usurious money lenders to exploit the citizens and refuses to establish the rule of Allah, which amongst other obligations, includes collecting and distributing zakah efficiently and fairly.

When you say "we" do you mean collective or individual?
It is indeed the collective which works to form governing administration whether that be the local area commitee (that has rubbish collected, night-watchguards (while the cops are busy stopping cars for bribes and chasing Muslims), local lighting and paying of bribes to city corporation or central government when they need a tender passed or transformer repaired), city corp, or central gov corp.
Or do you think zakah is like charity where you just individually distribute it as you like?
Why don't you give those taxes that exceed zakah by volumes (while even then the corrupt governments enslave the people in more imf usury based debt) directly to the poor?
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M.I.A.
12-02-2015, 06:07 PM
Carburys chocolate is going to be sold off..

Halal chocolates for everyone!
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Abz2000
12-02-2015, 06:57 PM
Double post
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Abz2000
12-02-2015, 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by M.I.A.
Carburys chocolate is going to be sold off..

Halal chocolates for everyone!





لَهُ دَعْوَةُ الْحَقِّ وَالَّذِينَ يَدْعُونَ مِن دُونِهِ لاَ يَسْتَجِيبُونَ لَهُم بِشَيْءٍ إِلاَّ كَبَاسِطِ كَفَّيْهِ إِلَى الْمَاء لِيَبْلُغَ فَاهُ وَمَا هُوَ بِبَالِغِهِ وَمَا دُعَاء الْكَافِرِينَ إِلاَّ فِي ضَلاَلٍ {14*



For Him (alone) is call in Truth: any others that they call upon besides Him hear them no more than if they were to stretch forth their hands for water to reach their mouths but it reaches them not: for the call of those who ungratefully deny/cover (the truth) is nothing but (futile) straying.
Quran 13:14


فَذَلِكُمُ اللّهُ رَبُّكُمُ الْحَقُّ فَمَاذَا بَعْدَ الْحَقِّ إِلاَّ الضَّلاَلُ فَأَنَّى تُصْرَفُونَ


010:032*Rashad:
Such is GOD, your rightful Lord. What is there after the truth, except falsehood? How could you disregard all this?

010:032*Sarwar:
Thus is God your true Lord. In the absence of truth there is nothing but falsehood. Then where are you turning?

010:032*Shakir:
This then is Allah, your true Lord; and what is there after the truth but error; how are you then turned back?

010:032*Sherali:
Such is ALLAH, your True Lord. So what is there other than the truth but error? How then are you being turned away from the truth?

010:032*Yusufali:
Such is Allah, your real Cherisher and Sustainer: apart from truth, what (remains) but error? How then are ye turned away?
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M.I.A.
12-02-2015, 07:33 PM
Rage intensifies...

Some cat owners.

...moms spaghetti



Sorry, thought that was a psychologists couch for a moment.

If it were I'd be catdog.


Abz2000.. If they locked me up who would come to visit?

Would it be the same people I would see outside?


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ardianto
12-03-2015, 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by ajr
Who is responsible for the poverty???
Helping the poor is responsibility of people who are able to help, and also responsibility of government.

Government indeed, have duty to build prosperity. But government also have limit of capability. So, people have to contribute in building the prosperity, and cannot throw the responsibility only to government.

So why then did Abu Bakr (ra) go to war with people that didnt want to pay zakaah anymore???:hmm:
Muslims government may punish people who refuse pay zakah, may order people to pay zakah, and may manage zakah distribution. But it doesn't mean if government do not order people to pay zakah and do not manage zakah distribution, then people cannot, or do not need to pay zakah.

Zakah is a matter between ummah and Allah. Whether government manage it or not, ummah must still pay zakah. Different than tax. If government do not ask people to pay tax, people do not need to pay tax.

Should people pay zakah through government?. It's depend on people themselves because zakah can be given directly, and can be given through the third party.
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ardianto
12-03-2015, 03:14 PM
Originally Posted by Abz2000
The refraining from usury is definitely a duty upon the people and it is definitely a duty upon the government to enforce it.
Maybe read surah Al Baqarah and quote based upon truth rather than just making stuff up.

It is haram and a breach of trust (khiyaanatulamaanah) that a government co-ordinates with usurious money lenders to exploit the citizens and refuses to establish the rule of Allah, which amongst other obligations, includes collecting and distributing zakah efficiently and fairly.

When you say "we" do you mean collective or individual?
It is indeed the collective which works to form governing administration whether that be the local area commitee (that has rubbish collected, night-watchguards (while the cops are busy stopping cars for bribes and chasing Muslims), local lighting and paying of bribes to city corporation or central government when they need a tender passed or transformer repaired), city corp, or central gov corp.
Or do you think zakah is like charity where you just individually distribute it as you like?
Why don't you give those taxes that exceed zakah by volumes (while even then the corrupt governments enslave the people in more imf usury based debt) directly to the poor?
Lets we see the reality. Government in many Muslim countries still maintain riba based banking system although ulama have reminded them. Then what we can do to prevent people who need loan fall into riba?. We give them loan that free from riba. We can give loan in personal level, or build baitul mal wa tanwil institution, or build sharia bank.

Can zakah be given individual?. Yes. Zakah is obligated donation can be given directly from the giver to the receiver in individual level, but also can be given through the third party. It this matter, Muslim government can manage zakah, but also can let people to manage zakah by themselves. If government decide to not manage zakah, we don't need to urge government to manage zakah because we can manage zakah by ourselves.

Indeed, in every Muslim country government establish zakah institution. But if you notice, those institution are autonomous and independent which central government do not intervene the distribution.

Who are "We"?. Me, you, and other Muslims. :)
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Mr.President
12-03-2015, 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
If your neighbor declare himself as the ruler of his home, it's legitimate because he occupy the area of his home. But how if your neighbor declare himself as the ruler of your home too?. Would you legitimate him?.

If Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi declared himself only as the ruler of area that occupied by him, it might be legitimate. But the problem is, he declared himself as the ruler of global Muslims ummah although those global Muslims ummah are not living in his occupied territory. Yeah, how could someone who just rule a piece of land in Iraq and Syria declare himself as ruler of Muslims who live in Saudi, in Kuwait, in Morocco, etc?. Aren't those other Muslims have their own rulers too?.

Of course other Muslims refuse to accept him as their ruler. But the reaction from Al Baghdadi group was very surprising, they declare Muslims who do not accept him as ruler, as kuffar. So the conflict began.
Thats really an interesting question,
A person who calls him Ameer Al Muhmineen/ caliph of all world muslims, one of his responsibility is to protect muslims,

Im wondering how bagdadi protecting the world muslims, im just confused is he expecting 2B muslims to migrate to syria where even isis are struggling against airstrikes i wonder how they are going to protect people ! Just confused man .....
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Abz2000
12-03-2015, 08:55 PM
Originally Posted by ardianto
Lets we see the reality. Government in many Muslim countries still maintain riba based banking system although ulama have reminded them. Then what we can do to prevent people who need loan fall into riba?. We give them loan that free from riba. We can give loan in personal level, or build baitul mal wa tanwil institution, or build sharia bank.

Can zakah be given individual?. Yes. Zakah is obligated donation can be given directly from the giver to the receiver in individual level, but also can be given through the third party. It this matter, Muslim government can manage zakah, but also can let people to manage zakah by themselves. If government decide to not manage zakah, we don't need to urge government to manage zakah because we can manage zakah by ourselves.

Indeed, in every Muslim country government establish zakah institution. But if you notice, those institution are autonomous and independent which central government do not intervene the distribution.

Who are "We"?. Me, you, and other Muslims. :)
The answers you provided above is based on a totally unlawful premise, and the post you made above that.

You claimed that even if the governments don't do their duties prescribed by Allah, the people should.
I'll again remind you that a government is set up by people - not martians - in order to establish justice, fair dealings, and communal duties as prescribed by Allah. If a government doesn't establish the duties prescribed upon it by Allah, then it is not a valid government, rather an unlawful criminal enterprise and needs to be replaced with a government which rules by Quran and Sunnah with sincerity and honesty.
No point saying that there's no food available and that we must all eat pig, when lawful food can be made available.
When a government is ruling with injustice (anything against Quran) and the people are having to leave their private duties and fulfil the duties of government, the government is diseased and should be seen as such.

Your justifications for claiming it to be normal s possibly due to the fact that you have been living under injustice for so many decades and have become desinsitized, even some of your 'ulama are forgetting to mention the fact that zakah is a communal duty when they compile pamphlets for you telling you how to distribute it.
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Abz2000
12-03-2015, 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by Mr.President
Thats really an interesting question,
A person who calls him Ameer Al Muhmineen/ caliph of all world muslims, one of his responsibility is to protect muslims,

Im wondering how bagdadi protecting the world muslims, im just confused is he expecting 2B muslims to migrate to syria where even isis are struggling against airstrikes i wonder how they are going to protect people ! Just confused man .....
It is the crime of the governments and their respective citizens -if they are the cannon loaders in a democracy- who are perpetrating unlawful airstrikes.
No point in the rapists or robbers blaiming housekeepers for the rapes and robberies when the housekeepers do their best to obey Allah and establish justice according to Allah's commands within their capacity.
It is better that the rapists and robbers, hypocrites and kuffar repent to Allah, establish regular salah, give regular sadaqah, and everything else that Allah has ordained which is within their ability- before they fall under the penalty of Allah, or that they take a rope to the ceiling and meet their lord because Allah never fails in His promise.
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Abz2000
12-03-2015, 09:06 PM
Double post
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