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DanEdge
12-03-2015, 07:25 AM
Hello,

2 people gunned down 14 people today in San Bernardino, USA. No matter whether or not this is terrorism, it will make shock waves.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/03/us/wha...ing/index.html

--Dan Edge
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Search
12-03-2015, 12:51 PM
:bism:

My heartfelt sympathies for all the victims.


ISIS Adherents Praise San Bernardino Massacre With #America_Burning

^^^ Sickening. May the Daesh soon perish!

format_quote Originally Posted by DanEdge
Hello,

2 Muslims gunned down 14 people today in San Bernardino, USA. No matter whether or not this is terrorism, it will make shock waves.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/03/us/wha...ing/index.html

--Dan Edge
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Scimitar
12-03-2015, 01:45 PM
I'm wondering what the Iraqi papers wrote the morning of the carpet bombing during dessert storm.
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M.I.A.
12-03-2015, 02:47 PM
two sides of the same coin.

all sides have people who feel there actions are always justified.


but the resentment they create is equal also.


i hope you can all understand that.


both isis and the press have picked up on the religious link.. not trying to be captain obvious but neither simply state the news.


muslims simply do not blow up at every given opportunity.

teenagers usually do but it was different a while back.
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Search
12-03-2015, 08:49 PM
:bism:

:sl:

So, it looks like the guy was radicalized as he seems to have been in contact with a terrorist overseas.

Just a thought, but I wonder if we can as U.S. citizens can push for banning of ISIS social media account as part of threats to the United States under some form of exception within the First Amendment.

:wa:
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Abz2000
12-03-2015, 10:56 PM
Beware of wolves in sheeps' clothing.....

A documentary by jeremy scahill on the practice of global assassinations carried out by the criminal ameican government, it also features interviews with the family of respected brother imam anwar al awlaki:

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strivingobserver98
12-04-2015, 12:35 AM
Deceiving headlines...



What are the motives behind these headlines anyway?
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MuslimInshallah
12-04-2015, 01:58 AM
Greetings Dan,


(sad) So much killing and wrongdoing...

If we could all see one another as God's creations...

(mildly) Perhaps, we can start by looking at the sadness of the "other". What do you think, Dan, of the photo of the terrified toddler being bombed in Syria? http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ml#post2864215

Please, everyone, let us not just mourn those we see as "like us". Let us mourn all those innocents who suffer. And in our grief, transcend our petty Selves.


May God, the Gentle, Help us to better know and understand one another... and ourselves.
Reply

syed_z
12-04-2015, 04:10 AM
Greetings and Peace be with you all....


I read this news today and was following bits a pieces of it throughout the day. I noticed that there are a lot of questions that come to one's mind. As the narrative goes, The suspect, Farook, attended the party at the hall with his coworkers and left. His wife didn't go to the party with him. Shortly after he left the party, according to the police chief, he returned with his wife and went on a shooting spree.

The couple did not have any past influence in their lives of terrorist mind set. They weren't even extremely religious couple to suspect them that the attack could be religiously motivated. The guy didn't have facebook neither twitter accounts, which these fools of Daesh/ISIS usually have and are displaying flags with Verses of Quran etc etc.



While he appeared not to have profiles on popular social media sites like Facebook and LinkedIn
http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=281256

“He was very religious. He would go to work, come back, go to pray, come back. He’s Muslim,” the father said.
https://www.rt.com/usa/324501-san-bernardino-suspects-dead-identified/

...praying and going to work and coming home is a sign of a practicing muslim and not a Khawarij (Extremist).


Most important of all the couple were killed outside their apartment - far away from the place of the shooting - they were not killed or caught outside the place of party.

Burguan said that police investigating the shooting went to a house in Redlands on Wednesday afternoon, and saw the couple take off in a black SUV. Police pursued the car to San Bernardino, where the gun battle ensued that left Farook and Malik dead.
http://pakobserver.net/detailnews.asp?id=281256


The shoot-out occurred after investigators went to an apartment in nearby Redlands where a vehicle was seen leaving, Burguan said. Officers pursued the vehicle and engaged in a shoot-out with the suspects, leading to the death of one male and one female. An officer was injured, but his injuries were not life-threatening, the police chief said.
https://www.rt.com/usa/324501-san-bernardino-suspects-dead-identified/



...even as the investigations continue the police is still not sure if the couple whom they consider as prime suspects were really involved in the shooting or no.

A person named Syed R. Farook was employed by the San Bernardino County Health Department as an environmental health specialist, but "it was not clear if that was the same person involved in the shooting," the Los Angeles Times reported, citing public records.
https://www.rt.com/usa/324501-san-bernardino-suspects-dead-identified/


Most important of all the police chief says that they are not sure if the suspect who left the party, Farook himself, was the same person who returned and did the shooting.

When asked what might have led to the shooting, Burguan said there had been some kind of dispute at the meeting, and that someone had left, but they don’t know if that person had been involved in the shooting.
https://www.rt.com/usa/324501-san-bernardino-suspects-dead-identified/


About four hours after the morning carnage, police hunting for the killers engaged in a shootout two miles from the social services center that left the two suspects dead and a black SUV riddled with gunshots. Farook and Malik were found with assault rifles and semi-automatic handguns, and were wearing tactical gear, but not bulletproof vests, authorities said.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/12/3/san-bernardino-shooting-motive-searched.html


The Carnage took place and suspects were caught after 4 hours near the Center, very conveniently they are still not far away from the place of incident?


A nearby witness had to say this...

They had indeed escaped. One witness, Glenn Willwerth, who runs a business across the street, said he heard 10 to 15 shots and then saw an SUV with tinted windows pull out “very calmly, very slowly” and drive off.
http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/12/3/san-bernardino-shooting-motive-searched.html

...The witness didn't see who left, whether they were even the suspected couple or someone else, because the SUV windows were tinted!

Authorities pursued the SUV, and a gun battle erupted around 3 p.m. One officer among nearly two dozen involved in the shootout suffered a minor injury and spent the night at a hospital.

So after attack they're still driving around their own apartment conveniently, as if nothing happened, after 4 hours of the attack, and then they attack the police who tried to stop them.



A guy who worked hard to bring his wife and then lives peacefully and himself has been a peaceful citizen for almost entire life he spend here in US suddenly is quick second wore a gear and automatic weapons and started shooting people at his center whom he has worked with who know him for a very long time and they say he never had behavior ......

The FBI says Malik (Wife) came to the U.S. in July 2014 on a Pakistani passport and a so-called fiancée visa. To get the visa, she had to submit to an in-person interview and biometric and background checks to ensure she wasn't a threat to public safety or national security.

....both didn't have any criminal or violent background...


There are question marks all over this incident and its investigation. And I'm sure that there will be many more questions. Problem of the matter is that they were not caught, they died - so the suspects did not live to tell us why they suddenly became opposite people and did this horrific act?
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Search
12-04-2015, 05:00 AM
:bism:

:sl:

Yes, with anything else, there will remain questions, but we're closer to having some answered.

I don't exactly know and therefore can't say anything with hundred-percent certainty, but it looks like the man at least was radicalized online as he seemed to be in touch with some terrorists overseas.

I feel like in cases like this usually some form of grooming phase happens that begins with the demonization of the the West, teaches hatred of the government, dulls the conscience with clamoring of how killing innocents is "okay" as vengeance because of their presumed culpability for living under that government, invites rage with pictures/videos of suffering Muslims elsewhere in the world and all of the hate-mongering is then juxtaposed with DIY cut-and-paste "Islam" that perverts Islam to justify the unjustifiable. Actually, I once read that there are Internet hubs for people just for this purpose, which as sickening as it sounds, allows extremists to recruit with "special" invitations and is subsequently followed with "sharing" and radicalization.

The radicalized persons then think they're taking some kind of justice for peoples killed elsewhere that they think has happened due to the governments that are presumed to all comprise of monsters and yet they themselves become monstrous perpetrators of horrific acts. The matter from A to Z reminds me of this Friedrich Nietzche quote: “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”

Computer forensic experts will be able to assemble the piece of the puzzle together to tell the "story" that they [the deceased] themselves cannot tell because people leave digital footprints in ways unfathomable to the laypersons every single time they use technology to communicate or use for any other purpose.

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
There are question marks all over this incident and its investigation. And I'm sure that there will be many more questions. Problem of the matter is that they were not caught, they died - so the suspects did not live to tell us why they suddenly became opposite people and did this horrific act?
:wa:
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strivingobserver98
12-04-2015, 05:15 AM
No headline about anything else, just Muslim?

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sfontel
12-04-2015, 05:21 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by فرحان
No headline about anything else, just Muslim?

I agree with you...but I would prefer to see...Christian Lunatic

God bless!
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syed_z
12-04-2015, 05:44 AM
Thank you my sister for your thoughts. Always good to read your shares, MashA'Allah.

I definitely agree with you that this phase does begin in the lives of those who are radicalized, atleast in the early stages I assume like you explained. But the question still remains, as to when did this sort of grooming took place in the lives of those 2 individuals?

There is no evidence for that, subhan'Allah. Rather the evidence we're getting is on the contrary.....

Then there is the disconnect between Wednesday’s murderous rampage and the visible behavior that preceded it. Less than three hours before he would open fire on his co-workers, Farook sat at a conference room table with six colleagues from the San Bernardino County health department where he had worked for the past five years, laughing with them as they heard the good news that their workloads would be lighter next year.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/2015/12/03/a0c7861e-99ef-11e5-b499-76cbec161973_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_shooter1010p%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

...their neighbors, friends, relatives, all had said it was unthinkable why he did this? ..again the problem is, they didn't remain alive to tell the world why!

format_quote Originally Posted by Search
I feel like in cases like this usually some form of grooming phase happens that begins with the demonization of the the West, teaches hatred of the government, dulls the conscience with clamoring of how killing innocents is "okay" as vengeance because of their presumed culpability for living under that government, invites rage with pictures/videos of suffering Muslims elsewhere in the world and all of the hate-mongering is then juxtaposed with DIY cut-and-paste "Islam" that perverts Islam to justify the unjustifiable. Actually, I once read that there are Internet hubs for people just for this purpose, which as sickening as it sounds, allows extremists to recruit with "special" invitations and is subsequently followed with "sharing" and radicalization.

The radicalized persons then think they're taking some kind of justice for peoples killed elsewhere that they think has happened due to the governments that are presumed to all comprise of monsters and yet they themselves become monstrous perpetrators of horrific acts. The matter from A to Z reminds me of this Friedrich Nietzche quote: “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”

Computer forensic experts will be able to assemble the piece of the puzzle together to tell the "story" that they [the deceased] themselves cannot tell because people leave digital footprints in ways unfathomable to the laypersons every single time they use technology to communicate or use for any other purpose.
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DanEdge
12-04-2015, 05:51 AM
Greetings,

I agree that NY Post is inconsistent, but keep in mind: journalism in the US is profit-driven. Headlines are chosen primarily to sell newspapers, much secondarily to educate or inform. This is what the people want to read. Islam is the popular enemy. 9/11, ISIS, Al Queda, etc., feeds this popularity. That's just how it is.

--Dan Edge
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Abz2000
12-04-2015, 05:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by فرحان
No headline about anything else, just Muslim?


They used to have some semblance of balanced reporting some time in history, but then, that was just after they'd finished supporting khattab in his efforts against the soviets, they even had obituaries for mujahideen:

BBC NEWS

Friday, 26 April, 2002, 00:05 GMT 01:05 UK

Obituary:




Chechen rebel Khattab

Khattab's vow has been to drive Russia out of Chechnya

The death of the Chechen rebel commander known as Khattab may be the rebel side's heaviest loss since their leader Dzhokhar Dudayev died in a missile attack in 1996.
Chechen rebel sources have confirmed his death, saying he was killed by a poisoned letter slipped him by Russia's Federal Security Service (FSB).

The FSB has displayed pictures of his body, which they say were intercepted in Chechnya after the warlord's funeral.

His large frame and shaggy mane of beard and hair had become a familiar sight on both rebel websites and in the Russian media, where he was viewed as a symbol of Islamic extremism on a par with Osama Bin Laden.

For the FSB, he was an "international terrorist... an ideologist and organiser of terrorist activity".

For the Chechen rebels, this fighter from the Middle East may in time be remembered mainly for his skill in leading the guerrilla war against Moscow.

But for Khattab himself, the fight in Chechnya was always a struggle against enemies of his vision of Islam - a vision which took him around Afghanistan and the former Soviet Union in pursuit of battle.

Afghanistan to Chechnya

Khattab, whose real name is said to be Omar Ibn al Khattab, is believed to have been born in Jordan to a tribe living near the border with Saudi Arabia.

He spoke of fighting the Soviet army in Afghanistan and is believed to have gone on to take part in wars fought in mainly Muslim parts of the former Soviet Union such as Tajikistan and Azerbaijan.

Moscow says Khattab played a key role in leading an Islamic rebellion in Dagestan
But it was in Chechnya that he made his name to the wider world, moving there in 1995 to fight Moscow's attempts to reclaim the separatist region, first in the 1994-1996 war and then after Russian troops returned in force in 1999.



Moscow says Khattab played a key role that summer in leading a rebellion by Islamic militants in Chechnya's neighbouring region of Dagestan.
He was also said to have founded a training camp for Islamic fighters along the lines of camps in Afghanistan.
"Tens of thousands of Muslims perish daily worldwide - not thousands, but millions of Muslims are killed," Khattab said in a recent website interview.
The Russian Government has accused Khattab of links with Osama Bin Laden's group but the commander said he had not seen him since his years in Afghanistan.

Asked about 11 September, he said the principal reason for it appeared to be US foreign policy.
"In the eyes of the entire world, Israelis are killing Muslims, occupying their lands, don't act even upon resolutions of United Nations, and America helps Israel in it," he said.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1952053.stm



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Pygoscelis
12-04-2015, 03:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
reminds me of this Friedrich Nietzche quote: “Beware that, when fighting monsters, you yourself do not become a monster... for when you gaze long into the abyss. The abyss gazes also into you.”
That is a great quote! So very true.
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Pygoscelis
12-04-2015, 03:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sfontel
I agree with you...but I would prefer to see...Christian Lunatic

God bless!
This is very true, and a sad state of affairs in U.S. media. Out of curiousity, who are the White, Christian and Atheist killers depicted?
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Search
12-04-2015, 05:43 PM
:bism:

:sl:

Well, from what I understand, there was a shoot-out with the police, which is why they are dead.

Also, as to him, for example, "laughing" and acting like an everyday normal person even three hours before the actual tragic event, with any "grooming" (even for example, predators' grooming of little girls) the first order of business is always secrecy, and in fact that secrecy is the currency by which these people are able to perpetrate the heinous actions in the first place.

And as to why he was acting "normal" (if that's your question if I'm not mistaken), during the phase of their grooming/brainwashing whatever, I'm sure their conscience is dulled or deadened to at least the degree that they have at least a bit of the sociopath emerge in them so that any common empathy they had/have for people is almost nonexistent (especially for peoples they now see as "enemies" and complicit in the actions of their government). That is why, I think, they are able to act "normal" even with nefarious intentions in their heart much as the infamous Ted Bundy was able to go through the workday being his "normal" self even when he had a part-time sadistic hobby of raping and murdering women as a serial-killer.

As to the exact why and wherefores, we'll only know what is uncovered through digital footprints or whatever other evidence we are able to amass on them.

So, unfortunately, unlike you, I don't see a disconnect, just this troubling phenomena which makes radicalization harder to spot in an individual (because of how well they are able to act out "normal" actions before the event that are not congruent with their ill intentions).

Anyway, I don't know.

This story makes me upset because even the U.S. government says that we're to expect such incidences to happen more, not less; and I can't accept that, because that is not a solution, more like resigned forbearance towards what is seen as inevitable.

Just my thoughts.

:wa:

format_quote Originally Posted by syed_z
Thank you my sister for your thoughts. Always good to read your shares, MashA'Allah.

I definitely agree with you that this phase does begin in the lives of those who are radicalized, atleast in the early stages I assume like you explained. But the question still remains, as to when did this sort of grooming took place in the lives of those 2 individuals?

There is no evidence for that, subhan'Allah. Rather the evidence we're getting is on the contrary.....

Then there is the disconnect between Wednesday’s murderous rampage and the visible behavior that preceded it. Less than three hours before he would open fire on his co-workers, Farook sat at a conference room table with six colleagues from the San Bernardino County health department where he had worked for the past five years, laughing with them as they heard the good news that their workloads would be lighter next year.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/2015/12/03/a0c7861e-99ef-11e5-b499-76cbec161973_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_shooter1010p%3Ahomepage%2Fstory

...their neighbors, friends, relatives, all had said it was unthinkable why he did this? ..again the problem is, they didn't remain alive to tell the world why!
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DanEdge
12-04-2015, 07:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Out of curiousity, who are the White, Christian and Atheist killers depicted?
I know two of them:

The White Killer is Dylan Roof, who killed 9 people in a black church in Charleston, South Carolina on June 17, 2015.

The Christian Killer is Robert Deer, who killed killed 3 in a Planned Parenthood facility just a few weeks ago.

--Dan Edge
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Search
12-04-2015, 09:06 PM
:bism:

:sl:

Yeah, apologies in advance, as I'm quoting myself here because I wanted to clarify something:


format_quote Originally Posted by Search
This story makes me upset because even the U.S. government says that we're to expect such incidences to happen more, not less; and I can't accept that, because that is not a solution, more like resigned forbearance towards what is seen as inevitable.
When I say the U.S. government says we're to expect such incidences more, they do talk in the context of gun control; and for those who are not Americans here on IB, in the U.S. gun control is a highly politicized issue. That said, the idea of expecting attacks like Black Church shooting, Virginia Tech Shooting, or San Bernardino is a crazy, crazy thing for us Americans to accept. President Obama once said some time ago that such incidences in our time have come to be the "new normal," which is again just unacceptable, as he himself said.

So, anywhoo, I don't know if we're any closer to solutions, but surely, there is one? I don't know if it is gun control, but I do know that I want the issue to not exist because we deserve better than to live in a world where this is the "new normal."

Again, I want to spare some thoughts for the people who are suffering here because of things like this, as the victim's families that have lost their loved ones and their lives will never be the same without the light and smile of their loved ones: In-sha-Allah (God-willing), they find healing and peace and are able to come out braver and stronger from this tragedy. They didn't deserve this heartache (especially from someone whom they trusted as their fellow man and American).

Peace.

:wa:
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sister herb
12-04-2015, 09:21 PM
Salam alaykum

^^ Thanks sister about telling some background information. We all should sometimes slow down a little before we start to tell our own opinions, judge things and link every incidents to the foreign policy of the US.
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TMGuide
12-05-2015, 01:45 AM
I always wondered why they havn't done that already, I mean the banning from the social media. They seem to know which social media accounts belong to them, so why not just delete them right?
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Zafran
12-05-2015, 02:34 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by DanEdge
I know two of them:

The White Killer is Dylan Roof, who killed 9 people in a black church in Charleston, South Carolina on June 17, 2015.

The Christian Killer is Robert Deer, who killed killed 3 in a Planned Parenthood facility just a few weeks ago.

--Dan Edge
Yes and the atheist killer is Stephen Hicks who killed 3 Muslim students in Chapel Hill February 10th 2015.
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Search
12-05-2015, 02:38 AM
:bism:

:sl:

Yeah, I know what you mean, but the problem is that deleting social media accounts will probably cause outrage due to the protection that First Amendment affords to free speech. That said, I do believe banning their social media from being available to access through satellite blockage in the U.S. might help reduce such incidents. Maybe saying these accounts constitute national security threats might help, although others might be wary because probably this sets a very bad precedent for a person who wants to abuse power to eliminate disliked free speech.

format_quote Originally Posted by TMGuide
I always wondered why they havn't done that already, I mean the banning from the social media. They seem to know which social media accounts belong to them, so why not just delete them right?
:wa:
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Zafran
12-05-2015, 02:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by TMGuide
I always wondered why they havn't done that already, I mean the banning from the social media. They seem to know which social media accounts belong to them, so why not just delete them right?
Possibly something do with net neutrality - or freedom of speech laws but I'm not really sure.
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Search
12-05-2015, 02:54 AM
:bism:

:sl:

Btw, is it okay for me as a Muslim to admit that these kinds of incidents freak me out? Because they do!

:wa:
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Abz2000
12-05-2015, 03:18 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
:bism:

:sl:

Btw, is it okay for me as a Muslim to admit that these kinds of incidents freak me out? Because they do!

:wa:
...

It's true though, terrorists are haters and and murderous colonialists are lovers,
Terrorists hate being murdered and colonized, and colonizers love murdering and colonizing.
george washington was a terrorist aswell, lol, to think of it, a tertorist became the first president of a new country almost as large as all of europe combined.
Someone should do a survey of which countries make the most weapons and categorize them by way of life.
That should shut the mouths of certain shill uncle toms who expect Muslims to act like domesticated animals always apologizing for the Quran and adding fuel to the false "either a religion of peace or a religion of violence" paradigm when having done nothing wrong.
The Quran is a balanced critereon and allows a community to become peaceful students and scientists when the situation allows, and vicious warriors when the situation requires, all within the guidance of God, it has departments of armed soldiery, departments of justice, departments of agriculture, business, architecture, social wellbeing, charity, poor due, etc.


الشَّهْرُ الْحَرَامُ بِالشَّهْرِ الْحَرَامِ وَالْحُرُمَاتُ قِصَاصٌ فَمَنِ اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ فَاعْتَدُواْ عَلَيْهِ بِمِثْلِ مَا اعْتَدَى عَلَيْكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَاعْلَمُواْ أَنَّ اللّهَ مَعَ الْمُتَّقِينَ {194*

Sahih International: [Fighting in] the sacred month is for [aggression committed in] the sacred month, and for [all] violations is legal retribution.
So whoever has assaulted you, then assault him in the same way that he has assaulted you. And fear Allah and know that Allah is with those who fear Him.

Pickthall: The forbidden month for the forbidden month, and forbidden things in retaliation. And one who attacketh you, attack him in like manner as he attacked you. Observe your duty to Allah, and know that Allah is with those who ward off (evil).

Yusuf Ali: The prohibited month for the prohibited month,- and so for all things prohibited,- there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, Transgress ye likewise against him. But fear Allah, and know that Allah is with those who restrain themselves.

Shakir: The Sacred month for the sacred month and all sacred things are (under the law of) retaliation; whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you and be careful (of your duty) to Allah and know that Allah is with those who guard (against evil).

Muhammad Sarwar: It is because of their disrespect of a sacred month that you are also allowed to retaliate against them in a sacred month. If any one transgresses against you, you also may retaliate against them to an equal extent. Have fear of God and know that He supports the pious.

Mohsin Khan: The sacred month is for the sacred month, and for the prohibited things, there is the Law of Equality (Qisas). Then whoever transgresses the prohibition against you, you transgress likewise against him. And fear Allah, and know that Allah is with Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V.2:2) .

Arberry: The holy month for the holy month; holy things demand retaliation. Whoso commits aggression against you, do you commit aggression against him like as he has committed against you, and fear you God, and know that God is with the godfearing

Quran 2:194


ذَلِكَ وَمَنْ عَاقَبَ بِمِثْلِ مَا عُوقِبَ بِهِ ثُمَّ بُغِيَ عَلَيْهِ لَيَنصُرَنَّهُ اللَّهُ إِنَّ اللَّهَ لَعَفُوٌّ غَفُورٌ

Sahih International: That [is so]. And whoever responds [to injustice] with the equivalent of that with which he was harmed and then is tyrannized - Allah will surely aid him. Indeed, Allah is Pardoning and Forgiving.

Pickthall: That (is so). And whoso hath retaliated with the like of that which he was made to suffer and then hath (again) been wronged, Allah will succour him. Lo! Allah verily is Mild, Forgiving.

Yusuf Ali: That (is so). And if one has retaliated to no greater extent than the injury he received, and is again set upon inordinately, Allah will help him: for Allah is One that blots out (sins) and forgives (again and again).

Shakir: That (shall be so); and he who retaliates with the like of that with which he has been afflicted and he has been oppressed, Allah will most certainly aid him; most surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.Muhammad

Sarwar: One who is wronged and who retaliates by that which is equal to his suffering, God will certainly help him; He is All-pardoning and All-forgiving.

Mohsin Khan: That is so. And whoever has retaliated with the like of that which he was made to suffer, and then has again been wronged, Allah will surely help him. Verily! Allah indeed is Oft-Pardoning, Oft-Forgiving.

Arberry: All that; and whosoever chastises after the manner that he was chastised and then again is oppressed, assuredly God will help him; surely God is All-pardoning, All-forgiving.

Quran 22:60
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Search
12-05-2015, 03:52 AM
:bism:

:sl:

...
Yes, I'm sure all of this is very funny to you, a guy who watches from the sidelines and enjoys when America gets what is coming to us, but this is unfunny to the rest of us Americans here who live within the States as we have to deal with the reality of having had another incident of domestic terrorism.

Not that you care, but domestic terrorism is beginning to take on the faces of regular people who had every possible reason to live out their lives in peace but chose instead to destroy others' for violence's sake.

Yes, it freaks me out. And it is starting to freak out other Muslims too. If we can't trust our Muslim brothers and sisters, then who can we trust?

Rhetorical question. So, I'm not looking for answers.

I take your point about George Washington throwing in his lot with the rebels against English Crown, but that was a different time period, different story, and different sides: Here, we're talking about TODAY, GLOBAL POPULACE, and BOTH MUSLIMS and NON-MUSLIMS being tired of ACTS OF TERRORISM.

:wa:
Reply

Abz2000
12-05-2015, 04:17 AM
are you absolutely stupid or what?
is it still difficult to see who the aggressors are after the 9/11 false flag and the wmd lie?
along with all the other murderous lies to cover up every single crime against humanity accross the globe?
it is actually pleasing to see you squirm when you've killed millions of innocent people around the globe based on utter lies and are wondering why they hate you.
the fact that you're trying to create a pacified and scared apologetic Muslim community as you've begun more unlawful bombing campaigns is quite obvious to anyone who cares to browse the forum.


maybe you still think millions of iraqis should be killed by those criminals who possess weapons of mass destruction because saddam hussein doesn't have (probably got rid of) the weapons of mass destruction that those aggressors gave him to use, or maybe you still think it's ok to invade afghanistan and kill millions of afghans while supporting the northern alliance and NATO criminals in their opium plantations because you staged a false flag event on 9/11 and ther afghans refused to hand over Usama.


or maybe you'll just help them in their oppressions by saying untruthfully "oh we have nothing to do with evil saddam and usama, because there is no violence in Islam and they subscribe to something called jeehad in the way of Allah which doesn't exist in Islam".
just so the real aggressors can say: "ya see!? the moderate Muslims even condemn these extremists, so let's go and illegally invade another land and murder millions of innocent people".

FEAR ALLAH, HIS MERCY IS GREAT, AND HIS WRATH IS NOT FAR FROM THE OPPRESSORS AND THEIR MUNAFIQ AGENT UNCLE TOMS.


Pre-Badr Missions and Invasions
With a view to implementing these plans, the Muslims commenced real military activities, which at first took the form of reconnaissance patrols delegated to explore the geopolitical features of the roads surrounding Madinah and others leading to Makkah, and building alliances with the tribes nearby.

The Prophet wanted to impress upon the polytheists and Jews of Madinah as well as the bedouins in its vicinity, that the Muslims had smashed their old fears, and had been too strong to be attacked with impunity. He also wanted to display the power of his followers in order to deter Quraish from committing any military folly against him which might jeopardize their economic life and means of living, and to stop them from persecuting the helpless Muslims detained in Makkah, consequently he would avail himself of this opportunity and resume his job of propagating the Divine Call freely.

The following is a resume of these missions and errands:

Saif Al-Bahr Platoon sent in Ramadan 1 A.H., i.e. 623 A.D. led by Hamzah bin ‘Abdul Muttalib and comprising 30 Emigrants with a definite task of intercepting a caravan belonging to Quraish. It was a caravan of 300 people including Abu Jahl bin Hisham. The two parties encountered each other and aligned in preparation for fighting. Majdi bin ‘Amr, on good terms with both sides, happened to be there and managed to prevent an imminent clash.
On that occasion, the Prophet [pbuh] accredited the first flag in the history of Muslims. It was white in colour and was entrusted to Kinaz bin Husain Al-Ghanawi, to carry.
In Shawwal, 1 A.H., i.e. April 623 A.D. The Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] despatched ‘Ubaidah bin Al-Harith bin Al-Muttalib at the head of 60 horsemen of Emigrants to a spot called Batn Rabegh where they encountered Abu Sufyan at the head of a caravan of 200 men. There was arrow shooting but no actual fighting.
It is interesting to note that two Muslims, Al-Miqdad bin ‘Amr Al-Bahrani and ‘Utbah bin Ghazwan Al-Mazini, defected from the caravan of Quraish and joined the ranks of ‘Ubaidah. The Muslims had a white flag carried by Mistah bin Athatha bin Al-Muttalib bin ‘Abd Munaf.
In Dhul Qa‘dah 1 A.H., i.e. May 623 A.D. the Prophet [pbuh] despatched Sa‘d bin Abi Waqqas at the head of 20 horsemen, and instructed them not to go beyond Al-Kharrar.
After a five-day march they reached the spot to discover that the camels of Quraish had left the day before; their flag, as usual, was white and carried by Al-Miqdad bin ‘Amr.
Ghazwa Al-Abwa’ or Waddan. It was in Safar 2 A.H., i.e. 623 A.D. The Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] set out himself at the head of 70 men, mostly Emigrants, to intercept a camel caravan belonging to Quraish, leaving behind Sa‘d bin ‘Ubadah to dispose the affairs in Madinah. When he reached Waddan, a place between Makkah and Madinah, he found none.
In the process of this campaign, he contracted a non-aggression pact with ‘Amr bin Makhshi Ad-Damari. The provisions of the pact go as follows:

"This is a document from Muhammad, the Messenger of Allâh concerning Bani Damrah in which he established them safe and secure in their wealth and lives. They can expect support from the Muslims unless they oppose the religion of Allâh. They are also expected to respond positively in case the Prophet sought their help."

This was the first invasion under the leadership of the Messenger of Allâh. It took fifteen days, with a white flag carried by Hamzah bin ‘Abdul Muttalib.

Buwat Invasion:
It took place in Rabi‘ Al-Awwal 2 A.H., i.e. 623 A.D. The Prophet [pbuh], at the head of 200 companions, marched for Buwat to intercept a caravan belonging to Quraish comprising 100 Quraishites, Omaiya bin Khalaf among them, and 2500 camels. When he reached Buwat, the caravan had left. Before leaving Madinah, he mandated Sa‘d bin Mu‘adh to dispose the affairs until his return.

Safwan Invasion:
In Rabi‘ Al-Awwal 2 A.H., i.e. 623 A.D. Karz bin Jabir at the head of a small group of polytheists raided the pastures of Madinah and looted some animals. The Prophet [pbuh] at the head of 70 men left Madinah to fight the aggressors. He went in their pursuit till he reached a place called Safwan near Badr but could not catch up with them. This invasion came to be known as the preliminary Badr Invasion. During his absence, the Prophet [pbuh] entrusted Zaid bin Harithah with the disposition of the affairs in Madinah. The standard was white in colour and entrusted to ‘Ali bin Abi Talib to carry.

Dhil ‘Ushairah Invasion:
It was in Jumada-al-Ula and Jumada-al-Akhirah the first or second 2 A.H., i.e. November-December 623 A.D. The Prophet [pbuh] at the head of 150-200 Muslim volunteers, with 30 camels which they rode turn by turn, set out to intercept a Quraishite caravan. He reached Dhil ‘Ushairah but the camels had left some days before. These camels were the same that he went out to intercept on their return from Syria, and were the direct reason for the break out of the battle of Badr. In the process of this campaign, the Prophet [pbuh] contracted a non-aggression pact with Bani Madlij and their allies Bani Dhumrah. Abu Salama bin ‘Abd Al-Asad Al-Makhzumi was mandated to rule Madinah in his absence.

The Platoon of Nakhlah
It took place in Rajab 2 A.H., i.e. January 624 A.H. The Messenger of Allâh [pbuh] despatched ‘Abdullah bin Jahsh Asadi to Nakhlah at the head of 12 Emigrants with six camels. ‘Abdullah was given a letter by the Prophet [pbuh] but was instructed to read it only after two days. He followed the instructions and discovered that he was asked to go on to a place called Nakhlah standing between Makkah and At-Ta’if, intercept a caravan for Quraish and collect news about their intentions. He disclosed the contents of the letters to his fellows who blindly obeyed the orders. At Nakhlah, the caravan passed carrying loads of raisins (dried grapes), food stuff and other commodities. Notable polytheists were also there such as ‘Amr bin Al-Hadrami, ‘Uthman and Naufal, sons of ‘Abdullah bin Al-Mugheerah and others...
The Muslims held consultations among themselves with respect to fighting them taking into account Rajab which was a sacred month (during which, along with Dhul Hijja, Dhul Qa‘da and Muharram, war activities were suspended as was the custom in Arabia then). At last they agreed to engage with them in fighting. ‘Amr bin Al-Hadrami was shot dead by an arrow, ‘Uthman and Al-Hakam were captured whereas Naufal escaped. They came back with the booty and the two prisoners. They set aside one-fifth of the booty assigned to Allâh and His Messenger, and took the rest. The Messenger disapproved of that act and suspended any action as regards the camels and the two captives on account of the prohibited months already mentioned. The polytheists, on their part, exploited this golden opportunity to calumniate the Muslims and accuse them of violating what is Divinely inviolable. This idle talk brought about a painful headache to Muhammad’s Companions, until at last they were relieved when the Revelation came down giving a decisive answer and stating quite explicitly that the behaviour of the polytheists in the whole process was much more heinous and far more serious than the act of the Muslims:

"They ask you concerning fighting in the sacred months (i.e. 1st, 7th, 11th and 12th months of the Islamic calendar). Say, ‘Fighting therein is a great (transgression) but a greater (transgression) with Allâh is to prevent mankind from following the way of Allâh, to disbelieve in Him, to prevent access to Al-Masjid-Al-Harâm (at Makkah), and to drive out its inhabitants, and Al-Fitnah is worse than killing."

[2:217]

The Words of Allâh were quite clear and said that the tumult created by the polytheists was groundless. The sacred inviolable sanctities had been repeatedly violated in the long process of fighting Islam and persecuting its adherents. The wealth of the Muslims as well as their homes had already been violated and their Prophet [pbuh] had been the target of repeated attempts on his life. In short, that sort of propaganda could deservedly be described as impudence and pr0stitution.

This has been a resume of pre-Badr platoons and invasions. None of them witnessed any sort of looting property or killing people except when the polytheists had committed such crimes under the leadership of Karz bin Jabir Al-Fahri. It was, in fact, the polytheists who had initiated such acts. No wonder, for such ill-behaviour is immanent in their natural disposition.

Shortly afterwards, the two captives were released and blood money was given to the killed man’s father.

After this event, Quraish began to realize the real danger that Madinah could present with. They came to know that Madinah had always been on the alert, watching closely their commercial caravans. It was then common knowledge to them that the Muslims in their new abode could span and extend their military activities over an area of 300 miles. and bring it under full control. However, the new situation borne in mind, the Makkans could not be deterred and were too obstinate to come to terms with the new rising power of Islam. They were determined to bring their fall by their own hands and with this recklessness they precipitated the great battle of Badr.
The Muslims, on the other hand, and at the behest of their Lord, were ordered to go to war in Sha‘ban 2 A.H:
"And fight, in the way of Allâh those who fight you; but transgress not the limits. Truly, Allâh likes not the transgressors. And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah (polytheism or calamity) is worse than killing. And fight not with them at Al-Masjid-Al-Harâm (the Sanctuary at Makkah), unless they (first) fight you there. But if they attack you, then kill them. Such is the recompense of the disbelievers. But if they cease, then Allâh is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allâh) and (all and every kind of ) worship is for Allâh (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimûn (polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

[2:190-193]
Before long, Allâh again sent the Muslims a different sort of verses whereby teaching them ways of fighting, urging them to go to war and demonstrating relevant rules:
"So, when you meet (in fight - Jihâd in Allâh’s cause), those who disbelieve smite at their necks till when you have killed and wounded many of them, then bind a bond firmly (on them, i.e. take them as captives). Thereafter (is the time) either for generosity (i.e. free them without ransom), or ransom (according to what benefits Islam), until the war lays down its burden. Thus [you are ordered by Allâh to continue in carrying out Jihâd against the disbelievers till they embrace Islam (i.e. are saved from the punishment in the Hell-fire) or at least come under your protection], but if it had been Allâh’s Will, He Himself could certainly have punished them (without you). But (He lets you fight), in order to test you, some with others. But those who are killed in the way of Allâh, He will never let their deeds be lost. He will guide them and set right their state. And admit them to Paradise which He has made known to them (i.e. they will know their places in Paradise more than they used to know their houses in the world). O you who believe! If you help (in the cause of) Allâh, He will help you, and make your foothold firm."

[47:4-7]
Shortly afterwards, Allâh began to dispraise the hypocrites, the weak at heart and cowardly elements:
"But when a decisive Sûrah (explaining and ordering things) is sent down, and fighting (Jihâd — the holy fighting) is mentioned (i.e. ordained) therein, you will see those in whose hearts is a disease (of hypocrisy) looking at you with a look of one fainting to death. "

[47:20]

The prevalent exigencies required as a top priority exhorting the Muslims to fight. Any leader with a deep insight would order his soldiers to get ready for any sort of emergency, let alone the All-Knowing Exalted Lord, Who is at all times omniscient of the minutest details of affairs. The event of that skirmish with the polytheists dealt a heavy blow to the pride of Quraish and created a sort of horrible restlessness amongst them.

The aforementioned Qur’ânic verses, enjoining the Muslims to strive in the cause of Allâh, betrayed the proximity of blood clashes that would be crowned by a decisive victory for the Muslims, and final expulsion of polytheists out of the Sacred City, Makkah. They referred to rules pertinent to the treatment of captives and slaughtering the pagan soldiers till the war ended and laid down its burdens. All of these could act as clues to a final triumph that would envelop the strife of the Muslims towards their noble objectives.

Another event of great significance featured the same month Sha‘ban 2 A.H., i.e. February 624 A.D., which was a Divine injunction ordering that Al-Qiblah be changed from Jerusalem to the Sacred Mosque in Makkah.

That was of a great advantage to the Muslims at two levels.

First, it brought about a kind of social sifting, so to speak, in terms of the hypocrites of the Jews and others weak at heart, and revealed their true nature and inclinations; the ranks of the Muslims were thereby purged from those discord-prone elements.

Second, facing a new Qiblah, the Sacred Mosque in Makkah, refers gently to a new role awaiting the Muslims to take up, and would start only after the repatriation of the Muslims to their Sacred City, Makkah for it is not logical for the Muslims to leave their Qiblah at the mercy of non-Muslims. The Muslims, therefore, at the behest of Allâh and on account of those Divine clues, augmented their activities and their tendency towards striving in the cause of Allâh and encountering His enemies in a decisive battle were greatly intensified.

http://www.alsiraj.net/English/sira/html/page33.html
Reply

DanEdge
12-05-2015, 08:17 AM
Abz,

As usual, your emotional outburst shames your "cause," your religion, and your self. I'm glad you're on Islamic Board because you provide a perfect counter-example for how not to engage in public discourse. Visitors can see the contrast between Muslims who participate in discussions peacefully, thoughtfully, and respectfully -- versus those who only know how to incite hostility, regurgitate dogma, and insult others. One could be concerned about your violent ambitions, but not really, since you spend all your time re-posting other people's ideas and trying to bully women over the web.

You deserved it,

--Dan Edge
Reply

ajr
12-05-2015, 08:54 AM
i disagree with you, he is actually pointing out facts, which no1 seems to acknowledge..so he comes across as a bully... as for the sister that post her love towards the west it actually is clear...if she truly awaits Imam Mahdi and maybe she should ponder if the ones that are non muslim that she defends in almost every thread of this nature, she should ask herself if those very people will ''fight'' alongside Imam Mahdi or if she herself would, seeing that we are a ''peaceful'' people.

Her rhetorical question lol...Who can she TRUST...lol... Trust Allah my dear...
Reply

Samia.
12-05-2015, 10:13 AM
Theres mass shooting in the US every single day (committed by Americans). I condemn the terrorist attack but think the media is taking it to far as usual
Reply

sister herb
12-05-2015, 10:39 AM
Is it necessary to label those criminals as "Christian", "Muslim", "Atheist", "White", "Black" etc? We should call them all by their real names: killers, criminals, haters, racists.
Reply

Eric H
12-05-2015, 11:32 AM
Greetings and peace be with you;


format_quote Originally Posted by فرحان
No headline about anything else, just Muslim?

The San Bernardino shooting was the second mass shooting on the day, and the 355th this year, which is pretty much in line with the 354 news headlines. In my mind, any mass shooting creates terror, they are all acts of terrorism. We cannot go out and bomb Christian, atheist and Muslim countries, once we find out the terrorists background.

We shall all have to stand before God, and justify how we treat our neighbours.

In the spirit of praying for peace in our day,

Eric
Reply

M.I.A.
12-05-2015, 04:09 PM
I guess gone are the days of fire and brimstone from the skys and plagues by which God warns people.


...Allah swt needs nothing and no one.

...and the devils been around for a while aswell.


Nobody should let there actions seem... Fair seeming to them.
Reply

Akingfisher
12-06-2015, 08:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
there you go again with your false stuttering labelling made smooth by a deceitful media when you are lacking an answer for all the murderous crimes you daily commit and are seen to be the criminals you really are, you turn to accusing the aggressed against of being the aggressors in order to deceive the masses, don't get confused by the false rhetoric people, the truth is plain to see.
Look at the amount of weapons this criminal munafiq and her infidel allies churn out every year to see where the violence is coming from and look at the number of murders they commit every year based on utter lies and false flag psychological warfare.
resorting to slandering me as an extremist is not going to save criminal murderous infidels from the just deserts of their flagrant sins against God and their crimes against humanity day after day, year after year, decade after decade, neither will disaster cease to confront them unless there's some sincere repentance.
neither heaven nor earth will shed a tear at your destruction oh criminal kuffar, the righteous cry out from the graves for justice, the only ones who cry for you are those hell-bound like yourselves.
Tell me, the people who get killed by Muslims in retaliation, do they not have the right to Dawah and possibly revert to Islam?

How do the Muslim killers know what the future could or would have been for these now dead people, who Allah apparently created?

Or is it a case of predestination and when your time is up, that's it? Which would apply to muslims as well I assume?

So if it's under Allah's control how can mere humans including Muslims not accept that?
Reply

Abz2000
12-06-2015, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Akingfisher
Tell me, the people who get killed by Muslims in retaliation, do they not have the right to Dawah and possibly revert to Islam?

How do the Muslim killers know what the future could or would have been for these now dead people, who Allah apparently created?

Or is it a case of predestination and when your time is up, that's it? Which would apply to muslims as well I assume?

So if it's under Allah's control how can mere humans including Muslims not accept that?
Clear dawah has been made and Islam takes up possibly 20-50% the news, in this age of internet, Britain and the U.S would be amongst the last places on the planet to claim that nobody had a chance to learn and walk aright
You'd have to research the details of how the Prophet pbuh and khulafa would offer the option to allow dawah under Islamic rule, but how once the leadership refused, the whole nation would be considered enemy territory,
If you're the pro-kafir liberal type and think that was too long ago, and you need kufr examples to make you reflect, you'd need to look at how Afghanistan was attacked in the name of "handing over usama" despite the fact that there was no evidence of wrongdoing on his part, and how thousands of people who couldn't even read and write (let alone afford a T.V set) slaughtered despite never having heard of 9/11 which later turned out to be a false flag.

There is a pertinent responsibility of the people to pay attention to what is happening, and to take full responsibility for the crimes of their government when they claim to live in a democracy controlled by the people.
In a democracy, the people are a syndicate.
Ask yourself if the babies who have been bombed by nato in Syria, iraq, afganistan, yemen and the scores of other countries that have been bombed in the past decade alone have a chance to grow up and learn, ask yourself whether your government has a right to provoke a war and slaughter it's people.
the people have a right to establish the laws of Allah without your governments hiring puppets to harm them and using the media to scare everyone about sheraya law and hand chopping, we don't go on about the fact that you electrocute and gas people to death if the capital punishment is justly due in your country, why did you provoke wars and then start pretending to care when you don't, why didn't you take the fire worshippers and the sodomites and the atheists rather than use them as propaganda capital, then after filming slaughters that you carefully and purposefully fomented, pretend that you care about Muslim refugees and make them out to be helpless pitiful sods that you were being charitable to?

Think, repent, walk aright, quick. The people of Jonah had a lot less time than you, but the king came down from his throne and told everyone to repent of their crimes against God - and when they sincerely repented with the intention to walk aright, God forgave them despite the punishment having been set.
Reply

sfontel
12-06-2015, 09:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Is it necessary to label those criminals as "Christian", "Muslim", "Atheist", "White", "Black" etc? We should call them all by their real names: killers, criminals, haters, racists.
You made an exelente point...and I my self would not have any problem that....

But also, I can not Ignore FACTS...something that a lot of people here says my brother Abz is pointing out...

So, can we balance this FACTS?

What the slavering white of the 1700-1800 were call?

The KKK?

Jones Town?

USA had some many cases where people using the flag of Christian...did horrible unspeakble things..

Make no misteiks....these were call Christians....with the following word to it CULT!

And we have no problem calling such....its very simple....

Anyone know that THEY DO NOT REPRESENT THE VALUES FOUND IN THE GOSPELS...

There is no reason to go up in arms to say that they are no Christians...but will add Cult Ideology.....

Its actualy very simple....when you actualy define a muslam extremist...you could just be saying that they DO NOT REPRESENT ISLAMIC CORE VALUES....that it!

And you make a clear distincion of what is what.....

No calling out just make confusion and the picture becomes blurry...

I hope you understand my point..

God bless!
Reply

sister herb
12-06-2015, 09:56 PM
Yes I understand your point. I see this might be a cultural matter like in my country it´s very rare that in the news (specially when someone has commited a crime) the newspaper would mention his/hers religion. We here see it´s irrelevant information. By this I mean the local happenings. International news are different thing but then the text of news comes from some other news agency.
Reply

sfontel
12-06-2015, 11:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Yes I understand your point. I see this might be a cultural matter like in my country it´s very rare that in the news (specially when someone has commited a crime) the newspaper would mention his/hers religion. We here see it´s irrelevant information. By this I mean the local happenings. International news are different thing but then the text of news comes from some other news agency.
This is true here sometimes....sometimes religion is not called out becouse the context of most people being Chriatians...so that may occurr too...

It all depends on the matter of the action of what happened...

Its know to history the Christians did and allowed slavery...its also true that anothers Christians fought to free slaves....

KKK case....white supremacists! Call them selfs Christians....that was call out a Cult...but a Christian Cult

To some extention, we kind of do not denied the rigth if somebody wants to be called Christian....but we make sure that a diference is call out...so there is no confusion...

Now, its up to Muslams to decide if the diference have to be call out or not....

West will make that assumption...its normal to them...and if this diference is not made clear by Muslams, the situation may will get complicated...

Some Christians allowed slavery...we did not started nor were the only ones to do it...but come to a point were we also broke the chain....a very ugly one....and took way to long!!!!

Some people used the bible to.maintain these chains!...UNBELIEVEBLE! but it proves that a person with a wrong intetion or goal can twist the word of God to justify and say whatever they want...

Like KKK, Jone Town, and so many others.....that call them selfs Christians but were also extremists and Cult...

Again, its up to.Muslams to.decide and to lead whatever direction is decided..

Thanks and God bless!
Reply

Logikon
12-07-2015, 01:55 AM
In the meantime the National Rifle Association "NRA" are loving this story.

At first the world thought this was an American "going postal". If that were true, the NRA would once again be embarrassed by the slack gun laws.

Instead, this massacre was done by Muslim jihadies.

As a result, the NRA can encourage more people to buy guns to protect themselves against Muslim jihadies!

.
Reply

Search
12-07-2015, 02:48 AM
:bism:

Hmm, yes, like the world, before the facts, I thought this was probably a right-wing extremist gone cray-cray when the story was first outed! Tragic, I thought. Only the next morning I was stunned into disbelief when I read it was Muslims!

Someone always profits from someone's tragedy, only in this case, maybe NRA, as you said.

Hmm, right-wing Trump promoters are already going to be buying guns with or without Muslim jihadists in the picture because they won't let no darn liberal tell them otherwise!

That said, I don't know if there will truly be a surge in numbers because of Muslim jihadists alone because you also have cray-cray like James Holmes in the Colorado movie theater shooting people down or the Sueng-Hui Cho shooting up Virgina Tech and so on and so forth type incidents that make right-wingers feel unsafe and eager to promote the Second Amendment right among fellow Americans.

format_quote Originally Posted by Logikon
In the meantime the National Rifle Association "NRA" are loving this story.

At first the world thought this was an American "going postal". If that were true, the NRA would once again be embarrassed by the slack gun laws.

Instead, this massacre was done by Muslim jihadies.

As a result, the NRA can encourage more people to buy guns to protect themselves against Muslim jihadies!

.
Reply

syed_z
12-08-2015, 02:02 AM
Asalaam O Alaikum... found some more info on this, so would like to share....there is still no hard evidence linking them to any terrorist group...


http://www.dawn.com/news/1224361


California mass shooters discreet, devout Muslims: attorneys


LOS ANGELES: Attorneys representing the family of the California mass shooters described the couple on Friday as devout Muslims but said there was no sign they had become radicalised.
Syed Farook, 28, and his 27-year-old wife Tashfeen Malik died in a shootout with police, hours after killing 14 people at a year-end party organised by Farook's employer in San Bernardino on Wednesday.
The FBI said the shooting, the deadliest in the country in three years, was being treated as an “act of terrorism” but there was no evidence yet linking the pair to a network.
“There is no sign that the alleged shooters belonged to a larger organisation or a terrorist cell,” David Chesley, one of two attorneys representing the family, told a news conference.
The family's attorneys said the couple, who lived in a townhouse with their baby daughter and Farook's mother, were quiet and kept to themselves.
Chesley said Tashfeen, who met Farook on an online dating site in 2013 and married him a year later in Saudi Arabia, was traditional and devout.
“There is very little information we have about her,” he said, describing her as a “typical housewife.”
Attorney Mohammad Abuershaid said few people came in contact with Tashfeen, who was born in Pakistan, wore the full-face veil and did not drive.
'Soft-spoken'

“The women (in the family) communicated with her. Farook didn't want anyone else to talk to her,” Abuershaid said.
“She was very soft-spoken and nice.”

When Farook's family members came to visit, he said, the women sat in one room and the men in another. “This is a very traditional way of acting,” Abuershaid said.
“So the men did not interact with her.”

He said the men in the family had never seen Tashfeen's face as she wore the burqa, or full-face veil.
“They just knew her as Syed's wife,” he said.

The attorneys said the family was aware that Farook had guns but didn't think much of that as he had acquired them legally and enjoyed target practice.
“As a gun owner myself, I probably have 4,000 to 5,000 rounds that I keep at home,” Chesley said.

“And the reason we buy them in bulk, is they're cheaper that way.”

He and Abuershaid said Farook's family were interviewed for four hours on Thursday by FBI agents trying to piece together what prompted the carnage.
“If there's anything remarkable about the (interview) that took place yesterday, it is that no ties (to extremist groups) could really be established to the point of frustration on the part of the FBI,” Chesley said.

He also appeared to downplay reports that Tashfeen had posted a message on Facebook around the time of the attacks expressing support for the leader of the militant Islamic State group.

“The entire world is digging for information and the most we've gotten so far is somebody looked at something on Facebook,” Chesley said.


Reply

syed_z
12-08-2015, 02:21 AM
Salaam... anyone who is here from Pakistan and has lived long enough over there would agree that Al Huda Institute teaches Islam and not extremism ...and this girl had studied there....also the institute also has its offices in United States doing Islamic Dawah....CNN is saying that this girl radicalized the boy....

http://www.dawn.com/news/1224752
California shooter studied at Al-Huda institute: teacher




MULTAN: The woman who, with her husband, shot dead 14 people in California last week attended one of the most high-profile religious teaching centres for women in Pakistan, a teacher at the Al-Huda institute told AFP Monday.
Tashfeen Malik, 29, studied at the Al-Huda Institute in Multan, which admits middle-class women and also has offices in the US, the UAE, India and the UK, the teacher at the teaching centre who gave her name only as Muqadas said.
"It was a two-year course, but she did not finish it," the teacher Muqadas said. "She was a good girl. I don't know why she left and what happened to her."
The teacher did not say when Malik studied at the Al-Huda institute, but fellow classmates at the Bahauddin Zakariya University said she had attended the institute after classes at the university, which she attended from 2007-2013.
Read: Fissures in the middle


Farhat Hashmi’s organisation, Al-Huda institute, has no known extremist links, though it has come under fire in the past from critics who say its ideology is extremist in nature.
Malik and her husband Syed Farook, 28, went on a killing spree at a social services centre in San Bernardino. Investigators suspect that Malik, who went to the United States (US) on a fiancee's visa and spent extended periods of time in both Pakistan and Saudi Arabia, may have radicalised her husband.
The probe is trying to establish if she had contact with radicals in either country.






Reply

syed_z
12-08-2015, 02:32 AM
Witnesses Saw There were 3 Suspects, witnesses told police they saw 3 men with what appeared to be long rifles...

This is the initial reporting of CNN which just got overshadowed by "Muslim Killers" when Muslim couple got killed...


Reply

syed_z
12-08-2015, 03:43 AM



This is the witness account ..... she says they were 3, athletic built and looked white...
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DanEdge
12-08-2015, 06:04 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Logikon
In the meantime the National Rifle Association "NRA" are loving this story...
.
Greetings,

I'm still not sure what I think about US gun laws, but I had a conversation with a customer on the phone today that made me think about it:

The customer was from California and lived near where the attacks took place. In the course of our conversation, she asked if I was scared for myself because of what happened. I said, "No, not really." She asked "Why?" I said the first thing that came to my mind: "Well, everyone here in South Carolina has guns. If I was a terrorist, I wouldn't attack a civilian population where everyone has guns. I'd get killed before I accomplished my mission."

--Dan Edge
Reply

Akingfisher
12-08-2015, 10:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
Clear dawah has been made and Islam takes up possibly 20-50% the news, in this age of internet, Britain and the U.S would be amongst the last places on the planet to claim that nobody had a chance to learn and walk aright
You'd have to research the details of how the Prophet pbuh and khulafa would offer the option to allow dawah under Islamic rule, but how once the leadership refused, the whole nation would be considered enemy territory,
If you're the pro-kafir liberal type and think that was too long ago, and you need kufr examples to make you reflect, you'd need to look at how Afghanistan was attacked in the name of "handing over usama" despite the fact that there was no evidence of wrongdoing on his part, and how thousands of people who couldn't even read and write (let alone afford a T.V set) slaughtered despite never having heard of 9/11 which later turned out to be a false flag.

There is a pertinent responsibility of the people to pay attention to what is happening, and to take full responsibility for the crimes of their government when they claim to live in a democracy controlled by the people.
In a democracy, the people are a syndicate.
Ask yourself if the babies who have been bombed by nato in Syria, iraq, afganistan, yemen and the scores of other countries that have been bombed in the past decade alone have a chance to grow up and learn, ask yourself whether your government has a right to provoke a war and slaughter it's people.
the people have a right to establish the laws of Allah without your governments hiring puppets to harm them and using the media to scare everyone about sheraya law and hand chopping, we don't go on about the fact that you electrocute and gas people to death if the capital punishment is justly due in your country, why did you provoke wars and then start pretending to care when you don't, why didn't you take the fire worshippers and the sodomites and the atheists rather than use them as propaganda capital, then after filming slaughters that you carefully and purposefully fomented, pretend that you care about Muslim refugees and make them out to be helpless pitiful sods that you were being charitable to?

Think, repent, walk aright, quick. The people of Jonah had a lot less time than you, but the king came down from his throne and told everyone to repent of their crimes against God - and when they sincerely repented with the intention to walk aright, God forgave them despite the punishment having been set.
I think your whole reply is a self righteous cop out!

How can you seriously believe that news about Islam and Muslims appearing on TV, the internet etc., is an adequate form of Dawah?

Also, on another thread I explained about 'Elitist Democracy' and that the people do not control it!

I also pointed out that many Muslims praise the 'magnificent 19' hijackers who did 9/11. Why would they do that?
Reply

Abz2000
12-08-2015, 11:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Akingfisher
I think your whole reply is a self righteous cop out!

How can you seriously believe that news about Islam and Muslims appearing on TV, the internet etc., is an adequate form of Dawah?

Also, on another thread I explained about 'Elitist Democracy' and that the people do not control it!

I also pointed out that many Muslims praise the 'magnificent 19' hijackers who did 9/11. Why would they do that?
Read the Quran, study Islam. You're in an age where the media present it to you in a skewed light, and they regularly present it to you, and you know that they present it in a skewed light, therefore there must be something to it that they fear will overcome their corruption - simple logic tells you that you need to read up on it - the media give wonderful dawah for those endued with an intellect and the ability to reason, they got me studying studiously, thousands of Americans studied and accepted Islam after 9/11/01 - why are you lagging behind?

You might want to ask yourself why there were israelis dressed up as arabs cheering too?
Not much towards understanding facts is it?
Seek the truth.


Edit: coincidence, was just teaching the kids basic trigonometry and it naturally went on to algebra, presented a rightangle triangle, gave them 45* as one angle, explained that three angles in a triangle make 180* and a rightangle is 90*, X automatically gave them 180-90-45. The american government and british mi5 prefer 60+60+60 in their seals.
It also showed that people without a foundation to calculate from are usually clueless and run around trying to measure every incident separately whereas for those with a basic and accurate foundational knowledge (fundamentalists), it comes easily though it appears strange. Read the Quran and the biographies of the prophet pbuh, they wont be able to fling you about as in a tempest.



22.*And Satan will say when the matter is decided: "It was Allah Who gave you a promise of Truth: I too promised, but I failed in my promise to you. I had no authority over you except to call you but ye listened to me: then reproach not me, but reproach your own souls. I cannot listen to your cries, nor can ye listen to mine. I reject your former act in associating me with Allah. For wrong-doers there must be a grievous penalty."
23.*But those who believe and work righteousness will be admitted to gardens beneath which rivers flow,- to dwell therein for aye with the leave of their Lord. Their greeting therein will be: "Peace!"
24.*Seest thou not how Allah sets forth a parable? - A goodly word like a goodly tree, whose root is firmly fixed, and its branches (reach) to the heavens,- of its Lord. So Allah sets forth parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition.
25.*It brings forth its fruit at all times, by the leave of its Lord. So Allah sets forth parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition.
26.*And the parable of an evil Word is that of an evil tree: It is torn up by the root from the surface of the earth: it has no stability.
27.*Allah will establish in strength those who believe, with the word that stands firm, in this world and in the Hereafter; but Allah will leave, to stray, those who do wrong: Allah doeth what He willeth.
Reply

Akingfisher
12-08-2015, 12:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
Read the Quran, study Islam. You're in an age where the media present it to you in a skewed light, and they regularly present it to you, and you know that they present it in a skewed light, therefore there must be something to it that they fear will overcome their corruption - simple logic tells you that you need to read up on it - the media give wonderful dawah for those endued with an intellect and the ability to reason, they got me studying studiously, thousands of Americans studied and accepted Islam after 9/11/01 - why are you lagging behind?

You might want to ask yourself why there were israelis dressed up as arabs cheering too?
Not much towards understanding facts is it?
Seek the truth.
So according to you, the kaffar media does the work of Dawah for Muslims/Islam!

When it takes apparently many many years of concerted study for Muslims themselves to become an Imam or Sheikh!

You might want to ask yourself why there were israelis dressed up as arabs cheering too?
Not much towards understanding facts is it?
So the apparent Muslims who praise the 'magnificent 19' do so knowing that they were the hated Jews dressed up as Arabs?

Google 'magnificent 19 al muhajiroun' Al-Muhajiroun (Arabic: المهاجرون
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Abz2000
12-08-2015, 12:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Maybe they don´t know their own religion enough well but believe those extremists whose teach them to thirst for blood of everybody whose disagree with them - both non-Muslims and Muslims.
Who did you see cheering like drunks at the whitehouse when they murdered a man against whom they had no charges for the events on 9/11, and who did you see cheering when they murdered anwar and then his 16 year old son? Were the media horrified and did they show their families mourning over and over again? It was the white house and it's puppet illusionists in the lamestream media who were rejoicing.
More people prayed janazah globally for anwar than for any other scholar of this century, yet those glued to the t.v were duped by the penny for a dozen "scholars" who chat rubbish on t.v.
But then, it's not easy for those who see kuffar leaders as their lords to make the connection or contrast because they see those foolish leaders as the ultimate authority when it comes to disciplining Muslims.
Reply

sister herb
12-08-2015, 12:43 PM
Brother, if others behave badly or disrespectfully or don´t understand nothing about manners or their religion or are happy about murders, it doesn´t mean that we should be similar and behave as bad ways like they do.
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Abz2000
12-08-2015, 12:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Akingfisher
So according to you, the kaffar media does the work of Dawah for Muslims/Islam!

When it takes apparently many many years of concerted study for Muslims themselves to become an Imam or Sheikh!
Again, the media give you a reason to study.
If you can afford learned scholars - great, if not, read what you can, not all billionaires went got a degree, syllabus was possibly to cramped for them.

format_quote Originally Posted by Akingfisher
So the apparent Muslims who praise the 'magnificent 19' do so knowing that they were the hated Jews dressed up as Arabs?

Google 'magnificent 19 al muhajiroun' Al-Muhajiroun (Arabic: المهاجرون
Not much of an intellectually stimulating observation or even relevant discussion when looking for facts, especially when videos of the wtc7 collapse are available:



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Abz2000
12-08-2015, 01:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Brother, if others behave badly or disrespectfully or don´t understand nothing about manners or their religion or are happy about murders, it doesn´t mean that we should be similar and behave as bad ways like they do.
We should try to do what is right, Allah defines what is right, in the Quran.
If we attempt to follow it, you have no right to seethe from washington, paris and london and seek and manufacture excuses to unjustly attack us
But please use a just balance when choosing to condemn because if you put all these actions on a spectrum, you'd find yourself having to condemn the corrupt u.s government and it's democratic citizens without break.
The fact that you choose to condemn the people at the light end of the spectrum shows a perversion of the psyche.
Reply

sister herb
12-08-2015, 01:12 PM
I agree that Washington etc. has no right to attack against other nations or civilians, Islamic or non-islamic ones. I think this is quite basic facts already.

In this case, yes, I condemn all people whose glorify killing of innocent civilians. In the case of humanity, I make no distinction between people.
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Abz2000
12-08-2015, 02:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
I agree that Washington etc. has no right to attack against other nations or civilians, Islamic or non-islamic ones. I think this is quite basic facts already.

In this case, yes, I condemn all people whose glorify killing of innocent civilians. In the case of humanity, I make no distinction between people.
But you can't claim that people who - pride themselves in being part of an illusory democracy which is actually a tyranny, and others who accept that it is not a democracy but rather a tyranny, yet refuse to accept the rule of God and refuse to establish Islam within their own selves and families which they do have control over, who refuse to make jihad with their selves, tongues, and hearts and refuse to absolve themselves from such corruption as did Lut (pbuh) and refuse to make hijrah when there comes a time when their children, husbands or wives say: "i'm allowed to commit zina or adultery because tony blair or jaques chirac or sarkozy or bush says so, i'll have you arrested if you attempt to discipline me", who refuse to invoke Allah for assistance - are innocent civilians?

There are many people who live under tyrranous regimes who find themselves helpless, but at least the majority absolve themselves of the actions of their corrupt leaders and pray and fast and teach their children the truth - isn't it quite obvious that you need to focus on the weighty things and then on the light things?

Do most people in the west even recognise the fact that there has come to exist a huge private weapons and usury industry that holds sway over their leaders, and that those industries thrive off war and destruction of human output? And that resources from essential public services are being diverted to these weapons industries and the servitude and dependency upon usury is increasing in parallel as a direct result of this corrupt system? That these so called "terror attacks" are a direct result of such policies? They create enemies just to keep the murderous and debasing game of lunatic musical chairs going.
They create false flag attacks and new enemies as soon as demand for weapons and usury or public opinion for wars or pro war leaders reach frightening lows.
They see calm, decency and prosperity as nasty outbreaks that need to be quelled, read up, repent and establish the ways of God to the best of your ability and who knows, God may repent of the evil that faces you and assist you.
Reply

sister herb
12-08-2015, 02:11 PM
^^ I haven´t claimed all those things. ^o) I condemn violence against civilians, just same what is their religion. That´s all.
Reply

Search
12-08-2015, 02:35 PM
:bism:

:sl:

So, the mass-shooters had another victim, and that living victim is part of the truly innocent, and I wanted to take a moment to spare thoughts for her.

The victim is the mass murderers' six-month old baby whose parents abandoned her to whatever fate befalls her when they exercised violence:

I was talking about this with other Muslims, and this seems to be the sentiment:


A man who couldn't be grateful to his country that fed him and clothed him and gave him an education with which he could find a job, couldn't be grateful to his parents who in this old age are going to be associated with their son's massacre and mayhem for the rest of their lives and probably will face ostracization from both the Muslim and non-Muslim peoples, couldn't be grateful to his sister and brother-in-law who are probably also going to get demonization from the American community and will face suspicion from police and other government agencies for the rest of their lives, how could they possibly be grateful enough to God to appreciate the wondrous gift of having a six-month baby who alone depended on them for nurturing and love and will now have to live her life as an orphan?

I hope In-sha-Allah (God-willing) the six-month old baby gets professional help to understand what happened when she's older as she will feel undoubtedly feel "tainted" in her blood when she discovers her parents were terrorists who chose to destroy other innocent persons' lives. In-sha-Allah (God-willing), she's able to make some kind of peace with the evil they committed and is able to find some forgiveness and mercy in her heart for being so heartless as to abandon being part of her life and see her grow up into her own.

Btw, like me, other Muslims with whom I conversed believe that if you don't like the country in which you are, move! ---> And don't be an ungrateful wretch!

:wa:
Reply

ajr
12-08-2015, 03:48 PM
"O you who believe! Stand out firmly for justice, as witnesses to Allah, even as against yourselves, or your parents, or your kin, and whether it be (against) rich or poor: for Allah can best protect both. Follow not the lusts (of your hearts), lest you swerve, and if you distort (justice) or decline to do justice, verily Allah is well-acquainted with all that you do." #Quran 4:135

The Prophet SAW said:

"Whosoever leaves off obedience and separates from the Jamaa'ah and dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah. Whoever fights under the banner of the blind, becoming angry for 'asabiyyah (nationalism/tribalism/partisanship) or calling to 'asabiyyah, or assisting 'asabiyyah, then dies, he dies a death of jaahiliyyah." Sahih Muslim


While taking the souls of those who were engaged in wronging themselves, the angels asked: 'In what circumstances were you?' They replied: 'We were too weak and helpless in the land.' The angels said: 'Was not the earth of Allah wide enough for you to emigrate in it?' For such men their refuge is Hell - an evil destination indeed #Quran 4:97


Those people who had willingly acquiesced to living under an un-Islamic order would be called to account by God and would be asked: If a certain territory was under the dominance of rebels against God, so that it had become impossible to follow His Law, why did you continue to live there? Why did you not migrate to a land where it was possible to follow the law of God?

(I suggest you go read tafsir and stop listening to your puppet sheikhs...you were commanded to seek knowledge, your sheikhs are mere mortals, they too will die and face their Creator)

"It is only Satan that suggests to you the fear of his allies. So, do not fear them, and fear Me if you are believers." #Quran 3:175

Ibn Taymiyyah commented ('Majmu' al-Fatawa'; 1/77-78):

"So, this verse proves that Satan makes his allies sources of fear, and he causes people to be afraid of them. And the verse shows that it is not permissible for the believer to fear the allies of Satan, and he should not fear people, as it was Said: "So, do not fear the people, and fear Me…" [al-Ma'idah; 44]

O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion (Islam), Allah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, striving in the Way of Allah, and never fear the blame of the blamers. That is the Grace of Allah which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allah is All-Sufficient for His creatures' needs, All-Knower.

#Quran 5:54

All I see are the blamers…that’s all you do, blame…and that’s all the believers do, they don’t fear the blame of the blamers….
So you see, I am upon clarity with regards to my religion, you are a doubter, so go argue with a doubter such as yourself…

*that’s the end of my conversation with you*
Reply

Search
12-08-2015, 06:23 PM
:bism:

:sl:

Source: San Bernardino Gunman Syed Farook Received $28,500 Deposit Two Weeks Before Shooting: Report

A deposit of $28,500 was made into the bank account of the shooter who opened fire at a social center in San Bernardino, California, just two weeks before the attack, a source close to the investigation told Fox News on Monday. Syed Farook and his wife, Tashfeen Malik, had carried out the onslaught at the Inland Regional Center last Wednesday, killing 14 people and triggering a widespread debate on gun laws in the country.

The transfer into Farook’s account was reportedly done through WebBank.com on or near Nov. 18 and about two days later he converted $10,000 to cash, withdrawing the money at a Union Bank branch in San Bernardino. Investigators are probing if the transaction was a loan from the Utah-based bank to Farook who earned $53,000 a year as an environmental health inspector. Just days before the shooting, there were three transfers of $5,000 each from his account to one believed to be of his mother.

According to the source, cited by Fox News, the withdrawals could be a “significant evidence of premeditation.”

The source added that there was further evidence pointing toward premeditation as there was a charge for an SUV rental processing to Farook’s account on Nov. 30, two days before the attack.


The source cited in the Fox News report, which has not been confirmed by authorities yet, said that the investigators are also trying to find out if the $10,000 withdrawn by Farook was handed out to Enrique Marquez, who had bought the two assault rifles involved in the attack. Marquez, who is said to be a close friend of Farook, has not been named as a suspect in the case, but the FBI searched his home on Saturday and he has been questioned by investigators.


"Our major concern is determining how those firearms got from Marquez to Farook and Malik," John D'Angelo, an assistant special agent with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives, said Monday at a press conference.


A report by the Associated Press (AP) Monday also said, citing the FBI, that Farook and Malik had been radicalized "for quite some time" and that Farook practiced at gun ranges in the Los Angeles metropolitan area. One of the target practice sessions reportedly happened just two days before the shooting. John Galletta, an instructor at Riverside Magnum Range, said in a statement, cited by the AP, that Farook had been there on Nov. 29 and Nov. 30, but there was "nothing was out of the ordinary regarding his behavior."


Neither WebBank.com nor Union Bank responded to specific questions about the Fox News report, according to the news network. However, David Weidman, a spokesman for Union Bank, reportedly said that the bank was working with the FBI and other investigators. "We are cooperating to the full extent of the law with the agencies conducting investigations into this tragedy,” Weidman said.


Over the last week, there have been several reports about the life led by Farook and Malik and how the two were radicalized.


While the Islamic State group (ISIS) called the couple its “followers,” a federal law enforcement officer said Friday, according to Los Angeles Times, that Farook was in touch with people from al Qaeda-affiliated Nusra Front in Syria and al-Shabab group in Somalia. A report by CNN also said last week that Malik had posted a pledge of allegiance to the leader of ISIS, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, on Facebook, through an account under a different name. However, the post was reportedly later removed by Facebook.


In a rare Oval Office address Sunday night, U.S. President Barack Obama spoke about the shooting incident and the ongoing investigation. “It is clear that the two of them had gone down the dark path of radicalization, embracing a perverted interpretation of Islam that calls for war against America and the West. They had stockpiled assault weapons, ammunition, and pipe bombs,” he said.


“The threat from terrorism is real, but we will overcome it. We will destroy ISIL and any other organization that tries to harm us,” Obama said, outlining an anti-ISIS strategy “designed and supported by our military commanders and counterterrorism experts, together with 65 countries that have joined an American-led coalition” in Syria.

:wa:
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sister herb
12-08-2015, 07:16 PM
I sometimes wonder what makes people to believe to the propaganda of groups like al-qaeda, daesh or boko haram. Do they feel emptiness in their soul and then try to fill it with kind of hate speech they spread? Doesn´t the peaceful message of Islam be enough for them as they want to see Islam as the call to the radical acts against non-Muslims?

The western islamophobics spread at the same time their lies that Islam is the religion which the only purpose is to attack against non-Muslims in the West. Unfortunately their hate speech will get more fuel when the Western radicals are listening those Muslim radicals.

The victims of the both of those radical groups are Muslims whose see that Islam is the religion of peace.
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sister herb
12-08-2015, 08:04 PM
A regular diet of the Quran makes me believe more and more stronger that Islam really is the religion of the peace. It doesn´t give anybody right to go and kill innocent civilians, whose personally haven´t attacked against Muslims first. Or were all those victims in San Bernardino armed soldiers in the battle field? I don´t think so. They were unarmed civilians whose couldn´t defend themselves against those murderers.

Farook attended the holiday party at the Inland Regional Center in San Bernardino, California. It's a facility for people with developmental disabilities.
No, they don´t sound the soldiers at all.

Why you now write about homosexuality? It hasn´t nothing to do in this topic. Peace doesn´t mean same than the camp and lesbians. Seems you only try to lead the discussion away from the original matter.

Also a regular diet of the Quran keeps me far from the people whose use religion as an excuse to promote their hate against other people. Very far.
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sister herb
12-08-2015, 10:24 PM
So... victims in San Bernardino hadn´t arms. So yes, those victims were then unarmed. They weren´t soldiers - so they were civilians. I see this very simple.

If some others were killed Muslims, then those whose had done it, should be punish, not those whose hadn´t kill anyone. Some logic now brother. This is called as collective punishment. By the other words, some comes to punish you about something what you haven´t never done. Collective punishments are not what Islam teaches:

No soul earns anything except it is upon itself, and none shall bear the burdens of another.

Surat Al-An’am 6:164
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Pygoscelis
12-08-2015, 10:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
The gay and lesbian quotes are showing the sickening lies which the dajjal slaves perpetrate.
More likely an attempt to lace some more hate into your posts. You are after all the one who called for the hunting down and killing of such people.

You as a majority either clearly state that it is not a democracy but rather a falsehood
What of those not in the majority who didn't vote for the party that took power? Are they valid targets for your hatred and violence?

And are you surprised to learn that many in the west DO call for reform of the electoral system? Calls by people like Bernie Sanders shouting that the system is a rigged oligarchy? People such as The Young Turks pushing to get money out of politics? People pushing against those who try to disenfranchise voters and juryrig electoral maps? Are you aware of any of this?

and you turn to the truth
You keep saying that. You seem to think that people not turning to Islam necessarily means people not pushing for actual democracy or a fairer and more peaceful society.

How do you plan to make up for the millions of innocent Muslims you've killed?
I haven't killed anyone.

And what is your plan to prevent killings of innocents everywhere?
By holding my government accountable. By voting out our former Prime Minister Harper who was a hawk and replacing him with Turdeau, who has promised to remove Canadian forces and get out of any involvement with bombing Syria. By making friends with Muslims such as Sister Herb and Search here, and realizing that not all muslims are as hateful or as tribal as you are. By speaking up when people direct hate speech at others in my community, such as the Sikh gentleman who myself and the cashier spoke up for at the grocery store last week when a lady was muttering at him following Paris attack. By stressing what we have in common as humans instead of what divides us. By doing whatever I can to combat racism, sexism and all other forms of prejudice and bigotry. By donating money to doctors without borders, who go into terrorized and destroyed areas and help those who are injured. By sending out Kiva loans to people in developing countries so they can better provide for themselves.

What are YOU doing?

I'm sure it won't come about by continually condemning those who lawfully retaliate in self defence with not even a thousandth of what they were afflicted with by these "peoples governments" and "public servants".
By flying planes into buildings, chopping off heads, firing randomly into crowds, detonating improvised explosives and hiding amongst innocent civilians to maximize civilian casualties when people come to put you down?

Do you really think that is going to save any of your brotheres or sisters? Do you not see that it will just amplify islamophobia and push western forces to further bomb and terrorize them?

I'd rather put it in perspective according to the guidelines of Islam.
Granted, I'm not Muslim, so I'm not going to care so much about the guidelines of Islam, or be an expert on what they are. But I would like to believe that whatever they are, they are not the cause of such a violent, hateful and bloodthirsty attitude as you display here. Because if they are, then that would kind of make the islamophobes over here in the west right, and me wrong. I am glad that for every one like you I meet, I met many like sister herb, Search, and ardianto here.
Reply

Abz2000
12-08-2015, 10:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
More likely an attempt to lace some more hate into your posts. You are after all the one who called for the hunting down and killing of such people.



What of those not in the majority who didn't vote for the party that took power? Are they valid targets for your hatred and violence?

And are you surprised to learn that many in the west DO call for reform of the electoral system? Calls by people like Bernie Sanders shouting that the system is a rigged oligarchy? People such as The Young Turks pushing to get money out of politics? People pushing against those who try to disenfranchise voters and juryrig electoral maps? Are you aware of any of this?



You keep saying that. You seem to think that people not turning to Islam necessarily means people not pushing for actual democracy or a fairer and more peaceful society.



I haven't killed anyone.



By holding my government accountable. By voting out our former Prime Minister Harper who was a hawk and replacing him with Turdeau, who has promised to remove Canadian forces and get out of any involvement with bombing Syria. By making friends with Muslims such as Sister Herb and Search here, and realizing that not all muslims are as hateful or as tribal as you are. By speaking up when people direct hate speech at others in my community, such as the Sikh gentleman who myself and the cashier spoke up for at the grocery store last week when a lady was muttering at him following Paris attack. By stressing what we have in common as humans instead of what divides us. By doing whatever I can to combat racism, sexism and all other forms of prejudice and bigotry. By donating money to doctors without borders, who go into terrorized and destroyed areas and help those who are injured. By sending out Kiva loans to people in developing countries so they can better provide for themselves.

What are YOU doing?



By flying planes into buildings, chopping off heads, firing randomly into crowds, detonating improvised explosives and hiding amongst innocent civilians to maximize civilian casualties when people come to put you down?

Do you really think that is going to save any of your brotheres or sisters? Do you not see that it will just amplify islamophobia and push western forces to further bomb and terrorize them?



Granted, I'm not Muslim, so I'm not going to care so much about the guidelines of Islam, or be an expert on what they are. But I would like to believe that whatever they are, they are not the cause of such a violent, hateful and bloodthirsty attitude as you display here. Because if they are, then that would kind of make the islamophobes over here in the west right, and me wrong. I am glad that for every one like you I meet, I met many like sister herb, Search, and ardianto here.
Repent and walk aright if there's still time.
Reply

ardianto
12-08-2015, 11:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
Repent and walk aright if there's still time.
Assalamualaikum, my brother.

Few of my friends in Indonesia are converts, mainly from Christianity. But no one of them embrace Islam because Muslims who threatened them with "repent!, or you will go to hell!". No, no. They decided to embrace Islam because Muslims who show good manner. It made them have positive image of Islam and interested to learn Islam.

Unfortunately now I also see a big problem among Muslims. There are Muslims youths who start to doubt about Islam. Not because non-Muslims, but because Muslims who teach violence and hatred toward non-Muslims. It makes those Muslim youths doubt "Every religion teaches love and care to the others. But Islam teaches hatred and not love. So, is Islam a religion?".

What I must tell to those youths?.
Reply

Search
12-09-2015, 03:08 AM
:bism:

:sl:

A Muslim woman, and a victim, shot three times in the San Bernardino attack, is now recovering in a hospital. She'd hid in the bathroom with some co-workers until help had arrived. The woman's husband, a Muslim man, Salihin Kondoker, labelled the attack as "anti-Islamic," and said the following:

I don't believe religion and terrorism has any connection. If you kill one innocent human being you will be charged as if you have killed entire humanity. Only way we can fight this crime if we are united, if we are together. I shall go to visit your church, temple, synagogue and pray with you and mourn with you about our tragedy. And should come to my mosque and pray with me."


Source: Survivor Who Prayed at Same Mosque as San Bernardino Shooters Calls Attack 'Anti-Islamic'

:wa:
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Search
12-09-2015, 03:23 AM
:bism:

:sl:

So, not that it matters to extremists, but...

Anybody notice how extremists talk about how they are all doing it for "Allah" and "dead or injured Muslims" elsewhere in the Free World, yet a) also do the same type of thing that they hate certain world governments do not for the sake of "Allah," and b) also increase the total count of "dead or injured Muslims" in the world?

For example, total number of Muslims dead in the Paris Attacks: 6
For example, total number of Muslims dead in 9/11 Attacks: 60

Hmm, I'd say reductionist and compartmentalized thinking.

:wa:

Edited: Correcting number of Muslims dead in the Paris attack; I'd underestimated the number by 1 person. (Also, I added a hyperlink as a source.)
Reply

Search
12-09-2015, 03:56 AM
:bism:

:sl:

Source: The brothers Farook: one a decorated veteran, the other a killer

:wa:
Reply

Akingfisher
12-09-2015, 02:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
Again, the media give you a reason to study.
If you can afford learned scholars - great, if not, read what you can, not all billionaires went got a degree, syllabus was possibly to cramped for them.



Not much of an intellectually stimulating observation or even relevant discussion when looking for facts, especially when videos of the wtc7 collapse are available:



That's another cop out, you are not answering my points directly, just firing a scatter gun of all sorts of off topic stuff to avoid a direct answer!

format_quote Originally Posted by Abz2000
So the apparent Muslims who praise the 'magnificent 19' do so knowing that they were the hated Jews dressed up as Arabs?

Google 'magnificent 19 al muhajiroun' Al-Muhajiroun (Arabic:
Why would these Muslims do this if it was a Western 'false flag' event in which Jews helped out?

Also, as mentioned elsewhere, why were Muslims screaming at a demo in London some years back and waving banners saying Europe watch out your 9/11 is on it's way, bin laden on his way etc?
Or where they all just more Jews dressed up as Arabs?
Reply

Akingfisher
12-09-2015, 03:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
:bism:

:sl:

A Muslim woman, and a victim, shot three times in the San Bernardino attack, is now recovering in a hospital. She'd hid in the bathroom with some co-workers until help had arrived. The woman's husband, a Muslim man, Salihin Kondoker, labelled the attack as "anti-Islamic," and said the following:



Source: Survivor Who Prayed at Same Mosque as San Bernardino Shooters Calls Attack 'Anti-Islamic'

:wa:
A nice sentiment, but wouldn't isis and similar Muslim sympathizers say that you are not real Muslims!

format_quote Originally Posted by Search
I don't believe religion and terrorism has any connection. If you kill one innocent human being you will be charged as if you have killed entire humanity. Only way we can fight this crime if we are united, if we are together. I shall go to visit your church, temple, synagogue and pray with you and mourn with you about our tragedy. And should come to my mosque and pray with me."
Isn't this an incomplete quote of the actual texts? Which were for the Jews!
i.e.
Sahih International: Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors.
Pickthall: For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth.
Yusuf Ali: On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land.
Shakir: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.
Muhammad Sarwar: For this reason, We made it a law for the children of Israel that the killing of a person for reasons other than legal retaliation or for stopping corruption in the land is as great a sin as murdering all of mankind. However, to save a life would be as great a virtue as to save all of mankind. Our Messengers had come to them with clear authoritative evidence but many of them (Israelites) thereafter started doing wrong in the land.
Mohsin Khan: Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidences, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land!.
Arberry: Therefore We prescribed for the Children of Israel that whoso slays a soul not to retaliate for a soul slain, nor for corruption done in the land, shall be as if he had slain mankind altogether; and whoso gives life to a soul, shall be as if he ha given life to mankind altogether. Our Messengers have already come to them with the clear signs; then many of them thereafter commit excesses in the earth.
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sister herb
12-09-2015, 03:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Akingfisher
A nice sentiment, but wouldn't isis and similar Muslim sympathizers say that you are not real Muslims!
Daesh and similar groups should remember that it´s a matter what belongs to Allah only - to know who is a Muslim and who isn´t.
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Mr.President
12-09-2015, 03:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
I sometimes wonder what makes people to believe to the propaganda of groups like al-qaeda, daesh or boko haram. .
What makes a person turn towards isis, when he/she feels a spiritual drought and frustration about the state of muslims, and the western governments war against islam ..... Makes them feel that only organazations like isis answer them .... So they turn towards isis....... When west attacks them with drone strikes cordinated attacks coaltions, advanced weapons .......... And they do not posses equal wepons they turn towards suicide and mass murders to intimidate..........

But a muslim should be patient and should not resort to extermism , a muslim should condemn these things and continue
And make sure to supplicate on each and every prayer
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sister herb
12-09-2015, 04:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mr.President
and the western governments war against islam
Now this is the common slogan what kind of groups love to spread in their propaganda. The extremely delusional argument but it has been popular every single time when here is any conflict between Muslim majority and non-Muslim majority troops.

Pure propaganda.
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sister herb
12-09-2015, 04:13 PM
double post
Reply

Mr.President
12-09-2015, 05:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Now this is the common slogan what kind of groups love to spread in their propaganda. The extremely delusional argument but it has been popular every single time when here is any conflict between Muslim majority and non-Muslim majority troops.

Pure propaganda.
This may be used by extremist groups for propaganda, but weather u like it or not its a war on islam.... Its a strugle between two civilisations, secular civilization vs islamic ..... Do u really think any government would accept a true islamic government.

If its not war against muslims or islam what do u call the afghan, iraq, egypt ...etc,

War on terrorism ? Do u really think they attack shoot and kill only one or two terrorists who are hiding, they do not care weather u r a good muslim or a terrorist, if u are cpl of feets away from a terrorost and hit by a drone missile its called colltral damage

Again at the end lets be clear the only thing that stops me from joining or supporting groups like isis is islam, i oppose killing of innocent humans ..
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ardianto
12-09-2015, 05:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Mr.President
This may be used by extremist groups for propaganda, but weather u like it or not its a war on islam.... Its a strugle between two civilisations, secular civilization vs islamic ..... Do u really think any government would accept a true islamic government.
The West actually don't care about Islam if they are not disturbed by some Muslims.
Reply

sister herb
12-09-2015, 05:32 PM
As I see those wars and attacks are cause of the modern colonial policy of the western world. You can call it as conflict of two civilizations but basic is the Western powers attempt to maintain their own political-economic position of power.

We should get rid of this kind of old-fashioned thinking that religions would have something to do why "the West" wants to rule the world. I still remember how during the Balkan wars at 1990 some Islamic countries tried to spread the idea that now this war (in ex-Yugoslavia) is the war against Islam. It was a good political slogan to increase hostile mentality against the West and prop up the leaders of the Islamic countries' own efforts to keep power. Behind of the war wasn´t old hate against the Muslims or Islam in general but greed of political and economical power in the region of Balkan.

If we want to find the real reason to conflicts in the world, we need to think what kind of economical benefits the attacker thinks to get if they will declare the war. The other main reason is the geopolitical position of those countries which again and again have been part of some conflict during their history. This same works also in other wars, not only those ones in the Middle East.
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Eric H
12-09-2015, 05:40 PM
Greetings and peace be with you all,

The San Bernardeno shooting was the second mass shooting on the day, and the 355th mass shooting for the year. And just to emphasize America's gun deaths...

Approx. 1.4 million gun deaths since 1968 in America. More Americans have died from guns in the United States since 1968 than on battlefields of all the wars in American history since 1775. Each year, the number of firearm-related deaths reach almost the equivalent of U.S. casualties in Korean War.

http://www.martingrandjean.ch/united...guns-and-wars/

In the spirit of praying for all victims.

Eric
Reply

Mr.President
12-09-2015, 05:41 PM
Well i agree on the point that attackers gain economic benifits its one of the reason

ill retract the word "wests war on islam" cuz its a broad subject and i cannot prove but just speculate so i retract but in light of al quran and ahadeeth

The enmity of the kuffaar towards the believers is ongoing
https://islamqa.info/en/11400
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ardianto
12-09-2015, 06:09 PM
The conflict between the West and Muslims World nowadays actually is something 'natural'. If two powers from different poles make alliance in war, and win, Then usually they start to 'disagree' with each other. This conflict began after the West-Muslims alliance won Afghan war. Indeed, the fighters in the war were mujahideen. But behind the mujahideen, there was this alliance that supplied weapons. Indonesia supplied weapons too to mujahideen which the plane that carried these weapons transit in Diego Garcia. Malaysia supplied weapons too through US government.
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keiv
12-09-2015, 06:18 PM
I didn't follow the thread but, for the sake of argument I have to ask. If there are Muslims who want to go out and kill people, why not target government officials? **I mean, what benfit will there be, Islamically, going into a grocery store, work place, or wherever and shooting up the place and taking out as many people as you can (Muslims and non-Muslims alike)? Take Satanyahu (netanyahu...) for example. I'd imagine he'd be at the top of most Muslim's hit list, were one ever to exist.


**Keep in mind I don't believe there to be any benefit in killing anyone period with the exception of self defense. Even in the time of war, the prophet saws treated prisoners of war better than the way a lot of people are treated in their own countries.
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ardianto
12-09-2015, 09:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by keiv
I didn't follow the thread but, for the sake of argument I have to ask. If there are Muslims who want to go out and kill people, why not target government officials? **I mean, what benfit will there be, Islamically, going into a grocery store, work place, or wherever and shooting up the place and taking out as many people as you can (Muslims and non-Muslims alike)? Take Satanyahu (netanyahu...) for example. I'd imagine he'd be at the top of most Muslim's hit list, were one ever to exist.
You must see this from psychological point of view. They attacked civilian, and not military, because it gave bigger mental effect. If they attack only military or government institution institution, it would make government alerted, but civilian still feel safe. But if they attack civilian, it would cause panic among civilian, and mentally affect government which they feel they failed to protect civilian.

This is indeed, the concept of terror.
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Pygoscelis
12-09-2015, 10:21 PM
^ It is also the psychology of blood feuds. Some people, once they are tribal enough in their thinking, don't care so much to kill the person who killed their loved one, so long as they kill somebody of that group. We see this come up throughout history and if you look close you can see it in your own "side". It becomes us vs them, and it really doesn't matter to them if it is a random civilian in a grocery store or the general who ordered the bombing of their home town, so long as the two of them are indentified as part of the same grouping.

Look up a few posts and read what Abz wrote about civilians of western democracies. He was saying you are a valid target if you live in the west, since you may have voted for the politician or didn't do enough to stop them from doing whatever it is they did, and even if you didn't, it doesn't much phase him. See above. You can see the same thing in the west, with people and their hatred of Muslims... not differentiating between Osama Bin Laden or that very nice Muslim who runs the nieghborhood deli. They see a "halal" sign go up in that deli and they think that guy is a terrorist.And you see the same with racism, etc, people mistreating others because of the race they are grouped into.
Reply

ardianto
12-10-2015, 01:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
^ It is also the psychology of blood feuds. Some people, once they are tribal enough in their thinking, don't care so much to kill the person who killed their loved one, so long as they kill somebody of that group. We see this come up throughout history and if you look close you can see it in your own "side". It becomes us vs them, and it really doesn't matter to them if it is a random civilian in a grocery store or the general who ordered the bombing of their home town, so long as the two of them are indentified as part of the same grouping.

Look up a few posts and read what Abz wrote about civilians of western democracies. He was saying you are a valid target if you live in the west, since you may have voted for the politician or didn't do enough to stop them from doing whatever it is they did, and even if you didn't, it doesn't much phase him. See above. You can see the same thing in the west, with people and their hatred of Muslims... not differentiating between Osama Bin Laden or that very nice Muslim who runs the nieghborhood deli. They see a "halal" sign go up in that deli and they think that guy is a terrorist.And you see the same with racism, etc, people mistreating others because of the race they are grouped into.
Okay, I will honest. When I was kid in 70's I often taught about "immorality of the Western people". They said "Look! the Westerners have sex without marriage!. Look! the Westerners have no etiquette, they put their feet on table!. So we must proud and maintain our Eastern values!".

But my eyes began to opened after I met and interacted with few White people. They are kind, friendly, have good etiquette, and have good moral. I began to realize "Oh, not every Westerner is bad. There are many good people too among them".

Frankly, if I don't have non-Muslims family and friends, probably I would have negative perception toward non-Muslims in general. And I guess, if you never join in this forum, probably your perception toward Muslims would not as good as now.

Yes, it's very important for both parties to interact in peaceful interaction. So, they can know each other better.

:)
Reply

Search
12-10-2015, 04:51 AM
:bism:

format_quote Originally Posted by Akingfisher
A nice sentiment, but wouldn't isis and similar Muslim sympathizers say that you are not real Muslims!
I'm as "real" a Muslim as any other. In Islamic basic legal definition, a person who says he is a Muslim is to be treated as a Muslim. Period. Full Stop. Dot. To do so otherwise is a corrupt, modern, aberrant un-Islamic practice that has flagrantly reared its head in the modern era.

The only Muslim capable of declaring a person(s) non-Muslim in Islamic law is a learned scholar and jurist of Islamic jurisprudence based on the apparent "behaviors" of that person or group, though scholars too have traditionally shied from doing so with the understanding that judgment is with Allah SubnahAllah wa Taala (Glorious and Exalted is God) and only done so when conscience has prevailed on them to undertake this odious arduous task to prevent or warn Muslims of any aberrance to preserve orthodox Islam.

Also, being a Muslim is quite a simple matter, which comprises of first and foremost declaring or believing in God and the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad sallalahu alayhi wasallam (peace and blessings be upon him) as part of the 5 pillars of Islam and also accepting the 6 pillars of iman (faith).

Also, just as some Muslims have one believe that one is not a real Muslim, other persons would have one believe that a Muslim cannot be a true American. So, the one-sided rhetoric exists on both sides of the equation. And honestly, all one has to do is be patient and introspect at the allegation or accusation and if then finds that one's conscience sits right, ignore the negative voices or naysayers.

Personally, as a Muslim, I don't spend my time or my energies concerning myself with what this or that person may think about my "Muslim-ness" because all I know is that I have to be right with God, and therefore everything else is just background noise to me.

format_quote Originally Posted by Akingfisher
Isn't this an incomplete quote of the actual texts? Which were for the Jews!
I awant to thank you for the query that I seemed to read in between your lines, which I'd like to answer, and I also want to say I appreciate you sharing the actual text of the verse of the Quran as I have always felt that it is a poignant and ocean-deep verse. Well, yes, in the Quran, the context itself refers to the Children of Isra'il, Muslims have historically and traditionally understood the verse to apply to how Muslims should conduct themselves. Muslim is one who "submits His will to God." You have to understand that Islam is set as a criterion by which to distinguish right and wrong, understand the forbidden and also how to conduct oneself in such a manner as to not be tempted into the forbidden, and also a means of using mental intellect and spiritual intellect to attain perfection in character and manners. Muslim scholars have used the verse as a means of juxtaposing the behavior required of believers to the behavior seen in organizations or individuals that commit un-Islamic actions like the one in San Bernardino.

For example, read the review of the fatwa (Islamic ruling) on the matter of attacks like we see in our modern time:
Muslim World Book Review: Spring 32, (3), pp. 18-20

Muhammad Tahir-ul-Qadri, Fatwa on Terrorism and Suicide Bombings, (London: Minhaj-ul-Quran International, 2010), pp. 512, £ 19.95

Review by Maulana Dr M Mansur Ali
Cambridge Muslim College

This is the translation of an Urdu fatwa (Dahshat gardi awr fitnae khawarij) written by the author primarily to condemn terrorist activities taking place in the Asian sub-continent. In the original Urdu fatwa the author has a disclaimer saying that the writing of this fatwa is not politically motivated but a sincere attempt to rescue Islam from being hijacked by a discourse on terror. His intention is to show the beauty of Islam and that terrorism is not a part of this beauty. It is an exhaustive piece of work and reads like a classical Islamic law manual: first looking at linguistic analysis of key words, seconded by scriptural evidence from the Quran and Hadith and finally followed by the opinions of the legal experts. The English translation first discussed at a ‘historical launch’ press conference in London in March 2010 which was later published as a 512 page monograph in December 2010, had attracted much media attention. The introduction has also been translated into a myriad of languages including Arabic, French, German and Norwegian. It is also accompanied by a website, a Facebook and Twitter page. The English translation of the fatwa is preceded by a forward and an introduction by two eminent scholars in their subject area.

In the forward, Professor John Esposito places the fatwa in its historical context by showing that it is but one from a line of condemnations by Muslim scholars against terrorism and indiscriminate killing. He quotes authorities such as Timothy Winter, Yusuf al-Qaradawi and Abdul Aziz Al-Sheikh the grand mufti of Saudi Arabia. He makes reference to two important initiatives by Muslim scholars worldwide in their collective condemnation of terrorism: the Amman Message (2004-5) and ‘A Common Word Between Us and You’ (2007). Dr Tahir-ul-Qadri’s fatwa is an important continuation of the Muslim voice against terrorism. The author of the introduction, Dr Joel Hayward, a scholar of war and strategy, expresses his frustration that hitherto condemnations of terrorism have not done anything to convince non-Muslims of the peaceful nature of Islam, neither have they stopped Muslims from being radicalized. He says that in March 2010 he breathed a huge sigh of relief.

The fatwa is solidly grounded in the Islamic sources. Its meticulous attention to details covering every single avenue makes it read almost like an encyclopaedia on the ethics of war and justice. It discusses the lexical and etymological meanings of Islam, Iman and Ihsan, the unlawfulness of indiscriminately killing people, Muslim or otherwise. He writes about the unlawfulness of terrorism in all forms, the rules related to the protection of ones religion, life, honour and wealth and the prohibition of rebelling against the government amongst many other things. The fatwa also includes the opinions of Salafi and Deobandi scholars in their condemnation of terrorism.

However, there are two unique features of the fatwa which distinguishes it from other fatwas written on the subject. First of all the author claims that it is ‘an absolute condemnation of terrorism, without any excuses, without any pretext, without any exceptions, without creating any ways of justification, this condemnation is in its totality, in its comprehensiveness, in its absoluteness, [...] a total condemnation of every act of terrorism in every form and every manifestation.’ And the second unique feature which is the main thrust of the fatwa and which the author calls his unique contribution, is his declaration that terrorists are ‘outside the ambit of Islam’ in other words they are kafirs who are not ‘heroes of Islam but the heroes of hell.’

The author comes to this conclusion through three different types of reasoning. First of all through a linguistic analysis of the words ‘Islam’ and ‘Iman’ he concludes that a terrorist acts contrary to what Islam and Iman are and therefore he cannot be from them even though outwardly he is pious and devout (p. 35). The second evidence for declaring terrorists as kafirs is based on Abu Mansur al-Maturidi’s reading of the verse ‘whoever kills a person, except as a punishment for murder or disorder in the land, it is as if he killed all of humanity (Quran 5:32). Al-Maturidi’s reading of the verse is based on the understanding that a person who deems it permissible to kill another person (istihlal al-qatl) without recourse to a court of law, in essence is denying the validity of the Quranic verse and as a result of this he is a kafir. This is different from the person who kills out of anger without believing it to be permissible.

The above two reasonings are only preambles to the author’s main reasoning in declaring terrorists as kafirs. His main ammunition against them is that they are the same old evil kharijites with a new name. He dedicates over 145 pages in trying to prove this (chapter 17: today’s terrorists are kharijites, p.385). By identifying similar khariji traits in the modern day terrorists, he declares them to be a modern manifestation of kharijis and then falls back on to higher authorities who have declared kharijites to be out of the fold of Islam (he also honestly documents the opinions of those scholars who did not hold this view). He sincerely believes that the Prophet’s prophecies regarding the description of the kharijites also fit into today’s terrorists. However, in doing so he makes some gross generalizations such as the Prophet saying they will be young, they will have bushy beards, they will wear their trousers way above their ankles and that they will come from the east. He even tries to make acoustic links between the Haruriya (another name for the kharijites) and modern day Hizb al-Tahrir, and al-Qa’diya (one of the names for the kharijites) and al-Qaeda saying that the only difference in the latter is the addition of the letter alif.

Although most readers will agree with the bulk of the fatwa, some may find the author’s main thrust of the fatwa (i.e. declaring the terrorists to be non-Muslims) problematic and difficult to accept from a theological and sociological point of view. First of all one may ask what constitutes istihalal. Modern day terrorists are not deliberately rejecting a ma’lum min al-din bi al-darura (that which is necessarily known from the religion), but they are sincerely upholding an interpretation (yuqatiluna ala al-ta’wil) which mainstream Islam rejects. They are guilty of violating ijma’ and not kufr. Therefore, one may say that the author is too absolute in assuming that rejecting a consensual interpretation constitutes kufr. Similarly the author’s position goes against the Amman message which professor Esposito writes about in the forward. Scholars who signed the Amman message, of which the author is also a signatory, agreed that it is not permissible for anyone to declare a person who believes in Allah and the Prophet as an apostate. Ironically, it categorically mentions that the Ibadis are Muslims, the Ibadis being an offshoot of the historical kharijites.

Another problem arising from declaring the terrorists to be non-Muslims is that one may see it as an attempt to shy away from the fact that terrorism is a problem within the Muslim community. A more head-on theological rebuttal to terrorist misreading of the Islamic sources would have been more efficient. And finally one may say that by declaring terrorists as non-Muslims the author is falling into the very same mentality that the kharijites were notorious for. Saying this, the author’s line of argument may help potential terrorists think twice before allowing themselves to be radicalised. We hope this maybe the case.
Reply

DanEdge
12-10-2015, 07:07 AM
Greetings,

I must be honest too, then :)

When I was younger (after 9/11), I thought that Islam was my enemy, and I almost joined the Army. My girlfriend and Mom talked me out of it. I had very dark feelings for Muslims. I joined thus website, it part, to dispel my emotional misconceptions.

My expectation was that, if I engaged with the Muslim community, locally and internationally, that I would find that they are all people just like me: trying to live their lives and be happy. That's why I'm going to a Mosque this weekend. Now that I think about it, that's the main reason I'm here. We're all just people, and I need to get that idea into my thick skull.

Sincerely,

--Dan Edge

format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Okay, I will honest. When I was kid in 70's I often taught about "immorality of the Western people". They said "Look! the Westerners have sex without marriage!. Look! the Westerners have no etiquette, they put their feet on table!. So we must proud and maintain our Eastern values!".

But my eyes began to opened after I met and interacted with few White people. They are kind, friendly, have good etiquette, and have good moral. I began to realize "Oh, not every Westerner is bad. There are many good people too among them".

Frankly, if I don't have non-Muslims family and friends, probably I would have negative perception toward non-Muslims in general. And I guess, if you never join in this forum, probably your perception toward Muslims would not as good as now.

Yes, it's very important for both parties to interact in peaceful interaction. So, they can know each other better.

:)
Reply

Eric H
12-10-2015, 08:43 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

It is also the psychology of blood feuds. Some people, once they are tribal enough in their thinking, don't care so much to kill the person who killed their loved one, so long as they kill somebody of that group.
Once the first killing has happened, we have to turn to God for the solution, we should give up our rightful anger, be merciful and forgive them. If we hate and kill we become like them. Forgiving someone is one of the hardest things we are asked to do.

We are all created by the same God, we shall never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric
Reply

sister herb
12-10-2015, 02:08 PM
Like in the Christianity, also in Islam the idea of blood feud is against its basic teachings. As I referred before:

"No soul earns anything except it is upon itself, and none shall bear the burdens of another."

Surat Al-An’am 6:164

Here is an article about collective punishments:

http://abuaminaelias.com/collective-...rime-in-islam/



Once again groups like daesh distort the message of Islam to excuse their own wrongdoings. Unfortunately specially people whose knowledge about Islam isn´t very good, believe those lies and believe they are part of Islam.
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ardianto
12-10-2015, 03:34 PM
Like many other Muslims I learned Islam since I was kid. There are many things that I have learned. Jihad?. Jihad was one subject that I have learned. Yes, I believe, if I die in jihad, then I became martyr and go to heaven. Other Muslims have same belief too.

But unfortunately, nowadays there are Muslims who don't know that not every jihad is true jihad, not every martyr is true martyr. They think they do jihad, although what they do actually is terrorism. They think they will go to heaven if killed in action without they know they will be die as terrorist, and no heaven for them.

So, it's a duty for Islamic teachers to teach what is the true jihad, what is the true martyr, to prevent Muslims people, especially youth, deceived by those who misuse them and promising them heaven.

Yes, I have been taught about jihad. Then, am I dangerous for the others?. Okay, I ask you. You have been taught that you must ready to defend your nation, you have been taught that if you die in defend the nation, you would become a hero. Then does it make you dangerous for people in other nations?.

My Islamic teachers also taught me that the best way to resolve a dispute is without violence. They taught me love and care to the others. Alhamdulillah, I learned Islam from teachers like them.

:)
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Search
12-11-2015, 12:06 AM
:bism:

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself.

I find the fact that you're trying to engage with Muslims (both online and offline) laudable, as if I were in your place, I don't know that I'd have had the intention or the courage. Really no one wants to change or discover things behind something as it's easier to not do anything, really.

(Sighs.) If you had a thick skull as you seem to believe, you wouldn't have been here in the first place - so, maybe give yourself a break?

We're all human beings simply trying to fumble our way through life and snap up moments of happiness in the best way, and we're all trying our best in some way or another.

format_quote Originally Posted by DanEdge
Greetings,

I must be honest too, then :)

When I was younger (after 9/11), I thought that Islam was my enemy, and I almost joined the Army. My girlfriend and Mom talked me out of it. I had very dark feelings for Muslims. I joined thus website, it part, to dispel my emotional misconceptions.

My expectation was that, if I engaged with the Muslim community, locally and internationally, that I would find that they are all people just like me: trying to live their lives and be happy. That's why I'm going to a Mosque this weekend. Now that I think about it, that's the main reason I'm here. We're all just people, and I need to get that idea into my thick skull.

Sincerely,

--Dan Edge
Reply

sfontel
12-11-2015, 12:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
:bism:

Hey, don't be so hard on yourself.

I find the fact that you're trying to engage with Muslims (both online and offline) laudable, as if I were in your place, I don't know that I'd have had the intention or the courage. Really no one wants to change or discover things behind something as it's easier to not do anything, really.

(Sighs.) If you had a thick skull as you seem to believe, you wouldn't have been here in the first place - so, maybe give yourself a break?

We're all human beings simply trying to fumble our way through life and snap up moments of happiness in the best way, and we're all trying our best in some way or another.
I am here too....trying to contact Muslams....I have no personal contact with any....there a very few where I am...

I am reading lots of books, history....I read the Koran.....I am trying to make heads and tails...

We disagree theologicaly speaking but I hope to agree socialy..

I am observing what is said here...in favor and against...

Indenpendly of history and harsh situations of past I am very happy to see that some make distinction of whats is going on know in the world...some times bringing harsh linguage over themselfs..

I like what I see here....and hope to see more in tv....its the only way we will be able to set the diferences...

God bless!
Reply

Search
12-11-2015, 12:52 AM
:bism:

Thank you, sfontel; and I appreciate you being on here too.

I think that's what I'd like to see, that while we may have differences in creed, we do not have differences in how we approach one another as human beings.

format_quote Originally Posted by sfontel
I am here too....trying to contact Muslams....I have no personal contact with any....there a very few where I am...

I am reading lots of books, history....I read the Koran.....I am trying to make heads and tails...

We disagree theologicaly speaking but I hope to agree socialy..

I am observing what is said here...in favor and against...

Indenpendly of history and harsh situations of past I am very happy to see that some make distinction of whats is going on know in the world...some times bringing harsh linguage over themselfs..

I like what I see here....and hope to see more in tv....its the only way we will be able to set the diferences...

God bless!
Reply

Akingfisher
12-12-2015, 07:52 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Search
:bism:



I'm as "real" a Muslim as any other. In Islamic basic legal definition, a person who says he is a Muslim is to be treated as a Muslim. Period. Full Stop. Dot. To do so otherwise is a corrupt, modern, aberrant un-Islamic practice that has flagrantly reared its head in the modern era.

The only Muslim capable of declaring a person(s) non-Muslim in Islamic law is a learned scholar and jurist of Islamic jurisprudence based on the apparent "behaviors" of that person or group, though scholars too have traditionally shied from doing so with the understanding that judgment is with Allah SubnahAllah wa Taala (Glorious and Exalted is God) and only done so when conscience has prevailed on them to undertake this odious arduous task to prevent or warn Muslims of any aberrance to preserve orthodox Islam.

Also, being a Muslim is quite a simple matter, which comprises of first and foremost declaring or believing in God and the prophethood of Prophet Muhammad sallalahu alayhi wasallam (peace and blessings be upon him) as part of the kharijites and also accepting the 6 pillars of iman (faith).

Also, just as some Muslims have one believe that one is not a real Muslim, other persons would have one believe that a Muslim cannot be a true American. So, the one-sided rhetoric exists on both sides of the equation. And honestly, all one has to do is be patient and introspect at the allegation or accusation and if then finds that one's conscience sits right, ignore the negative voices or naysayers.

Personally, as a Muslim, I don't spend my time or my energies concerning myself with what this or that person may think about my "Muslim-ness" because all I know is that I have to be right with God, and therefore everything else is just background noise to me.



I awant to thank you for the query that I seemed to read in between your lines, which I'd like to answer, and I also want to say I appreciate you sharing the actual text of the verse of the Quran as I have always felt that it is a poignant and ocean-deep verse. Well, yes, in the Quran, the context itself refers to the Children of Isra'il, Muslims have historically and traditionally understood the verse to apply to how Muslims should conduct themselves. Muslim is one who "submits His will to God." You have to understand that Islam is set as a criterion by which to distinguish right and wrong, understand the forbidden and also how to conduct oneself in such a manner as to not be tempted into the forbidden, and also a means of using mental intellect and spiritual intellect to attain perfection in character and manners. Muslim scholars have used the verse as a means of juxtaposing the behavior required of believers to the behavior seen in organizations or individuals that commit un-Islamic actions like the one in San Bernardino.

For example, read the review of the fatwa (Islamic ruling) on the matter of attacks like we see in our modern time:
Thanks for your reply.

If I understand it correctly, the author of the fatwa is saying that isis and other kharijites, have strayed from Islam in their actions, but are still to be regarded as Muslims not kaffar?
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LaSorcia
12-12-2015, 09:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ardianto
Okay, I will honest. When I was kid in 70's I often taught about "immorality of the Western people". They said "Look! the Westerners have sex without marriage!. Look! the Westerners have no etiquette, they put their feet on table!. So we must proud and maintain our Eastern values!".

But my eyes began to opened after I met and interacted with few White people. They are kind, friendly, have good etiquette, and have good moral. I began to realize "Oh, not every Westerner is bad. There are many good people too among them".

Frankly, if I don't have non-Muslims family and friends, probably I would have negative perception toward non-Muslims in general. And I guess, if you never join in this forum, probably your perception toward Muslims would not as good as now.

Yes, it's very important for both parties to interact in peaceful interaction. So, they can know each other better.

:)
As a Christian, I don't condone sex without marriage either! Many ppl in the USA are not Christians anymore, sadly. I say sadly because most of them have converted or grown up with atheism. They are not people of the book. There are a lot of cultural Christians nowadays, something I find difficult to understand. How can any person claim to follow a religion and not practice it in their whole life???

If someone put their feet on my table, I would think it very rude, too! I've never seen anyone do this lol. What I have seen some people do, that really disgusts me, is to wipe the sweat off their faces with my linen napkins. I don't think this is a sin lol, just gross! Offering good hospitality is important to me, so I say nothing and just wash it.

Yes, many people here are very good, too. Americans donate more money per capita to charity than any other country- if the statistics I read are true. Unfortunately, I have had a Muslim man ask me to commit zina with him because I was American. I was not dressed immodestly, even by Muslim standards. It was winter, and I was covered from head to toe! I told him I was a Christian and did not do that. When he kept hassling me, I said loudly that I would call the police. That stopped things, thank God. But I do not think all Muslim men act like him. In fact, I have met many who don't.

That's why I joined this forum. I got tired of hearing all bad about Muslims, and I imagine that many Muslims hear all bad about Westerners. The only way to overcome this media propaganda is to get to know each other.
Reply

Search
12-12-2015, 10:01 PM
:bism:

Well, you have to understand that the above quoted material is not the original fatwa (Islamic ruling) as the original fatwa reads like an "exhaustive piece of work," and what I quoted for you here is a mere review of the fatwa. Therefore, the quoted review includes criticism as well as noteworthy points about the fatwa.

Unfortunately, I don't have original access to the fatwa.

This review says that the the issuer of the fatwa held that Muslims who commit crimes like terrorism or fall under the umbrella of terrorist organization are kharijites and will therefore be considered out of the folds of orthodox Islam.

The reviewer, however, is leveling the criticism that the issuer of the fatwa could possibly be making the same mistake that the kharijites make which is to declare a person who professes to Islam "kaffir" (disbeliever) when that cannot be clearly established in any manner without going with a fine toothcomb through their intentions. The reviewer says that the issuer of the fatwa should instead have kept to the direct rebuttal of specific terrorist's misinterpretations. That said, the reviewer does seem to note that the issuer of the fatwa has probably written this harsh fatwa against terrorists declaring them as non-Muslims to "help potential terrorists think twice before allowing themselves to be radicalised." The reviewer finally notes with cautious optimism that that might be the case.

I do appreciate the issuer of the fatwa making "no bones about the matter" so-to-speak and on Islamic proofs declaring the Muslims who do this as kaffir, but the reviewer disagreed with this position, and I can respect the dissent of the reviewer because you and I can agree that intentions are in the domain of the unseen whereas Islamic jurists are confined to making Islamic legal rulings based on the "apparent" beliefs or actions of a person or group.

format_quote Originally Posted by Akingfisher
Thanks for your reply.

If I understand it correctly, the author of the fatwa is saying that isis and other kharijites, have strayed from Islam in their actions, but are still to be regarded as Muslims not kaffar?
Reply

ardianto
12-12-2015, 11:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LaSorcia
As a Christian, I don't condone sex without marriage either! Many ppl in the USA are not Christians anymore, sadly. I say sadly because most of them have converted or grown up with atheism. They are not people of the book. There are a lot of cultural Christians nowadays, something I find difficult to understand. How can any person claim to follow a religion and not practice it in their whole life???

If someone put their feet on my table, I would think it very rude, too! I've never seen anyone do this lol. What I have seen some people do, that really disgusts me, is to wipe the sweat off their faces with my linen napkins. I don't think this is a sin lol, just gross! Offering good hospitality is important to me, so I say nothing and just wash it.

Yes, many people here are very good, too. Americans donate more money per capita to charity than any other country- if the statistics I read are true. Unfortunately, I have had a Muslim man ask me to commit zina with him because I was American. I was not dressed immodestly, even by Muslim standards. It was winter, and I was covered from head to toe! I told him I was a Christian and did not do that. When he kept hassling me, I said loudly that I would call the police. That stopped things, thank God. But I do not think all Muslim men act like him. In fact, I have met many who don't.

That's why I joined this forum. I got tired of hearing all bad about Muslims, and I imagine that many Muslims hear all bad about Westerners. The only way to overcome this media propaganda is to get to know each other.
Greeting and peace be with you, LaSorcia.

I am sorry to hear your experience with that Muslim man. I guess, he is also not White, isn't he?. Indeed, there is a negative perception among some non-White about White people that White people can sleep with anyone, put their feet on table when sit on chair. From where this negative perception come from?. Movies!. Hollywood movies often depict White American like this, just like they often depict Black people as criminal, Italian as mafia, Colombian as drug mafia. But of course, what depicted in movies often different than reality.

I've ever met and acquainted with few White people, like my mother English teachers from USA, foreign students in my city. They are good people. I myself have Christian relatives. They are pious Christians, few of them even church caretaker. I also studied in Catholic elementary school and got many great lessons from my teachers at that school who majority were nuns.

Every community, every society consists of good people and bad people. But we should not judge the whole community or society just because few of them are bad. Muslims are not always good too. Free sex among youth is big problem that happen in Indonesia which the youth that involved in free sex usually Muslim. Drink and Drunk habit among Muslim is another problem. It's ironic because my Christian relatives don't drink alcohol although with different reason.

Indeed, there is tendency among people which they judge another community only from the bad in that community and ignore the fact that there are many good people in that another community. This is why very important for people in the world to throw out prejudice and know each other with the clean hearts. In Shaa Allah (God willing), it will build better understanding between each other and make the world more peaceful.

:)
Reply

LaSorcia
12-13-2015, 10:19 PM
I have not had tv service in my home for over 15 years, and I stopped watching movies even before then. I found most of them disgusting, horrible treatment of women as sex objects, profanity, etc. Even the movies for little kids are sometimes not good. If people think Americans act like they do in films, no wonder they hate us!

About all I watch nowadays is children's shows: Sean the Sheep, Timmy Time, Postman Pat, and some Miyazaki films.

The man was from Pakistan living in the UK at the time. What I can't understand is, why do people move to the West, when they say they hate it? Who would want to live in a country they can't stand?

EDIT- Am I wrong, or isn't it a sin for a man to commit zina too? I thought it was?
Reply

Scimitar
12-13-2015, 10:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by LaSorcia
Miyazaki films.
bit partial to a little studio ghibli myself :)

Scimi
Reply

Search
12-14-2015, 12:52 AM
:bism:

format_quote Originally Posted by LaSorcia
EDIT- Am I wrong, or isn't it a sin for a man to commit zina too? I thought it was?
Yup, you're not wrong. It's sinful for a man to commit zina too just as it would be for a woman.

Meh. Some men are creeps, doesn't matter religion or nationality or whatever.

Sorry you had to go through that though.
Reply

strivingobserver98
12-16-2015, 06:35 PM
What about the three white males?

Reply

Search
12-16-2015, 09:49 PM
:bism:

:sl:

Contrary to previous reports that suspected San Bernardino mass shooters Syed Farook and Tashfeen Malik posted their support for jihad on social media, the FBI announced Wednesday that the pair, in fact, did not. Bureau chief James Comey told reporters Wednesday that the couple only established their jihadi support in private emails and messages. “We have found no evidence of a posting on social media by either of them,” Comey said.
:wa:
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