format_quote Originally Posted by
walter
dear muslim woman:
The qur’anic references follow.
1. Mohammed instructed his followers to believe the books of the bible.
o ye who believe! Believe in god and his messenger, and the scripture which he hath sent to his messenger and the scripture which he sent to those before. Any who denieth god, his angels, his books, his messengers, and the day of judgment, hath gone far, far astray. (4:136)
what is this scripture that muslims are instructed to believe, and warned not to deny?
say: "we believe in god, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to abraham, isma'il, isaac, jacob, and the tribes, and in (the books) given to moses, jesus, and the prophets, from their lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to god do we bow our will." (3:84)
2. Mohammed instructed his followers to copy and distribute the bible (book/guidance) to all nations of the earth without compensation.
we gave him isaac and jacob: All guided: And before him, we guided noah, and among his progeny, david, solomon, job, joseph, moses, and aaron: Thus do we reward those who do good: And zakariya and john, and jesus and elias: All in the ranks of the righteous: And isma'il and elisha, and jonas, and lot: And to all we gave favour above the nations: And to their fathers, and progeny and brethren: We chose them, and we guided them to a straight way.
This is the guidance of god: He giveth that guidance to whom he pleaseth, of his worshippers. If they were to join other gods with him, all that they did would be vain for them. These were the men to whom we gave the book, and authority, and prophethood: If these reject them, behold! We shall entrust their charge to a new people who reject them not.
Those were they who received god's guidance: copy the guidance they received; say: "no reward for this do i ask of you: This is no less than a message for the nations." (6:84–90)
All of this is based on the single assumption that the modern Bible can be considered as the successor of these earlier revealed books, which it is not. You are claiming that since the original versions are to believed upon, means by default that the Bible becomes a part of that message, while it is not. Anyone can see that the pattern of writing in the Bible is different from the revelations referred to in the Quran. While Islamic tradition states that these revelations were from the perspective of God and were Divine Revelation, Judeo-Christian Theology states that these are inspired works written by the hands of man, as seen in the texts themselves, which serve as at most, pieces of human history, rather than anything to do with the Divine other than association itself only.
In Islamic tradition on the other hand, and as referred on in these verses, the Quran is the successor of the earlier revelations, containing all the laws and messages required for us in itself, without the need of any other pieces of scripture. It is in the same spirit as the earlier books. This single assumption carries your entire argument. There is no association between the Bible and Divine Revelation, since no Christian can claim that the Bible is Divine Revelation, or that any parts of it are in any way, it is a piece of writing written by man.
format_quote Originally Posted by
walter
3. Copying errors
islamic tradition teaches that the original biblical manuscripts are no longer available. This is true. What we have are copies. Islamic tradition claims that the copying errors have corrupted the copied manuscripts beyond redemption. However, there is no evidence of this claim in the qur’an. On the contrary, the qur’an provides evidence that biblical scriptures were available:
no just estimate of god do they make when they say: "nothing doth god send down to man" say: "who then sent down the book which moses brought?—a light and guidance to man: but ye make it into sheets for show, while ye conceal much: Therein were ye taught that which ye knew not—neither ye nor your fathers." say: "god": Then leave them to plunge in vain discourse and trifling. (6: 91)
the qur’an charges that religious leaders presented the scriptures for show, but concealed much of it. The qur’an does not deny the availability or accuracy of the scriptures, but condemns the religious leaders’ corrupt behavior. The scriptures that were available during mohammed’s lifetime, which he encouraged his followers to believe, are available to us today.
Your entire research falls short again. There are tons of verses that condemn the changing of the words of scripture. Let me state some of these.
"O Messenger, let them not grieve you who hasten into disbelief of those who say, "We believe" with their mouths, but their hearts believe not, and from among the Jews. [They are] avid listeners to falsehood, listening to another people who have not come to you.
They distort words beyond their [proper] usages, saying "If you are given this, take it; but if you are not given it, then beware." But he for whom Allah intends fitnah - never will you possess [power to do] for him a thing against Allah . Those are the ones for whom Allah does not intend to purify their hearts. For them in this world is disgrace, and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment." (Quran 5:41)
This verse states that the Priests themselves altered the words by their tongues, changing the meaning of individual concepts, which definitely means the accuracy is not complete.
"Know they not Allah Knoweth what they conceal and what they reveal? And there are among them illiterates,
who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture. Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say: 'This is from Allah,' To traffic with it for a miserable price! Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. (The Noble Quran, 2:77-79)"
This verse again states that the people do not know what is in the revelation, but write from their own opinions, thoughts, and conjectures, and what they write, is not from Allah. This is perfect historical accuracy. Since the Bible was, yes, written by the hands and perspectives of men, such as Mark or Matthew.
"But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard;
they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for God loveth those who are kind. (The Noble Quran, 5:13)"
Again, you can see the alteration of scripture.
Also, you can refer to the Hadith themselves.
Narrated Ubaidullah: "Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that
the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!" (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"
Again, again, again.
And for my final statement in this section. I shall present to you proof from the Bible itself stating its own corruption.
"'How can you say, "We are wise, for we have the law of the LORD," when actually the lying pen of the scribes has handled it falsely? (Jeremiah 8:8)
This does not say the tongues of the scribes, nor the words of the scribes, it says the lying pen of the scribes. Meaning, the scribes have wrongfully written the law. This statement shows how their words were wrong and how their pens changed the law.
format_quote Originally Posted by
walter
The bible was formally compiled approximately 200 years before the birth of mohammed, during the reign of constantine. It was copied and distributed widely, including to the churches in syria, ethiopia, and egypt. The following manuscripts have been found.
- the septuagint was translated between 3rd and 1st century bc. It is a greek version of the old testament.
- the codex sinaiticus is dated circa 350 ad. The new testament section is located in the british library, the old testament sections are located in st catherine’s monastery (sinai, egypt), leipzig university library (germany), and the national library of russia (st petersburg). The book contains the entire old testament (septuagint version), the new testament, the shepherd of hermas, and the epistle of barnabas.
- the codex vaticanus, dated c.350 ad, is located in the vatican library. This bible contains most of the old testament (septuagint version) and the new testament.
- the codex alexandrinus, dated before 500 ad, is located in the british library. This book contains most of the old testament (septuagint version) and all of the new testament, in addition to first and second clement.
the discoveries of the dead sea scrolls between 1947 and 1956, which contain several books also contained in the old testament and written before 0 ad, confirm the accuracy of the copies that we have today.
Best regards.
Each version of the Bible has differences, and since any one of them can not be stated to be more accurate than any other, the entire accuracy of the scripture falls downward. Their are books accepted in one version, while not in the other. Even the Dead Sea Scrolls refer to the Book of Enoch, which is not part of the most accepted Biblical canons. There were so many books not accepted during the Rule of Constantine, what happened to them? So that establishes how the Bible has a history of human selection over specific books.
And even though we know that the modern Bible was present during Mohammad's (pbuh) life and the Christian Community, we have no proof that any part of these is divine, since people can tell a lie, regardless of whether only years have passed since a person has gone away. The fact that these books existed in history, does not prove anything, since the Gospel of Jesus denied the versions of the Torah left behind, and he was here in 0 CE. Proof that these books were present in these time periods, does not affect how changed they are.
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Sorry for derailing the thread, you may continue. I feel you should just give it away, since burning it would be a waste of paper and someone's money.