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Pmb
01-24-2016, 09:41 PM
Hello everyone,

I joined this forum to learn about Islam. I learned the basics in college and through out the last 15 years. I belonged to an Islam board before but I forgot its URL.

One of the main questions that sparked me to join just now is whether the God of Islam is the same God as Judaism and Christianity. I believe that they're all one and he same God. I'm agnostic and have decided to increase my knowledge of Christianity so I joined a Christianity discussion forum. One of the members today claimed today that the God of Islam is not the same God as the God of Islam. I think they hold that to be true because each religion has different beliefs about God. That's a very poor argument because Christians and Jews also have different beliefs about God but they don't hold that the God of Judaism is not the same God of Christianity - They're all the God of Abraham.

Any thoughts on this are very welcome.
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sister herb
01-24-2016, 10:13 PM
Hello to you

Welcome to forum or should I say welcome back.

Shortly to say, yes, Islam teach that Muslims, Christians and Jews are believing to the same God. In the Quran Christians and Jews are mentioned as the "People of the Book" - they have got before message from the God and Muslims respect same prophets than Jews and Christians. Difference is of course that to us Jesus was the prophet, not "the son of the God".
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Insaanah
01-24-2016, 11:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pmb
One of the main questions that sparked me to join just now is whether the God of Islam is the same God as Judaism and Christianity. I believe that they're all one and he same God. I'm agnostic and have decided to increase my knowledge of Christianity so I joined a Christianity discussion forum. One of the members today claimed today that the God of Islam is not the same God as the God of Islam. I think they hold that to be true because each religion has different beliefs about God. That's a very poor argument because Christians and Jews also have different beliefs about God but they don't hold that the God of Judaism is not the same God of Christianity - They're all the God of Abraham.
Greetings Pmb, and a warm welcome to the forum.

Thank you for your thoughtful first post.

As Muslims, we believe in, and worship, the same God Abraham (peace be on him) worshipped, the same God Moses (peace be on him) worshipped, the same God Jesus (peace be on him) worshipped, and the same God they told people to worship.

One God. He alone should be worshipped. He is our Creator, Sustainer, and Lord.

He does not beget, nor is He begotten.
He has no sons, daughters, spouses, siblings, parents, cousins, or relatives of any sort.

He is eternal and does not die. He does not depend on anyone/anything yet we all depend on Him. He is free of all want and need.

There is nothing like Him. He is all Hearing, all Seeing, all Knowing, all Powerful, Incomparable, the Creator of the Universe.

He did not/does not, become flesh, dwell in human or animal bodies, nor are there any incarnations of Him.
He is not mixed up in His creation in any way.

He is not composed of persons, nor a trinity.
There are no secondary, lesser, greater, equal, or multiple gods, nor any intermediaries. And no denying of God's existence either.

There are no sharers, associates, persons or parts whatsoever in His exclusive Divinity. Simply, He is One, in every sense.

The problem arises in current day Christianity, which holds that God begot a son, and that son was also God. Essentially they say they believe in one God that exists in three persons (ie a trinity), which they call a triune God - God the father, God the son and God the holy spirit. They believe that the holy spirit dwells in them to guide them, but worship is directed at both God the father and God the son (Jesus). So, they believe that Jesus is also God. This is against Islamic beliefs.

That is the difference. We believe in and worship the same God Jesus (peace be on him) himself worshipped and called people to worship whereas they have taken Jesus (peace be on him) himself to be God too. We see that as one of two opposite extremes. The Jews rejected Jesus (peace be on him) as prophet of God, and at the opposite end, the Christians turned him into God, but Muslims believe in him as he was, one of the noblest and purest of humanity to ever walk the earth, and one of the greatest messengers of God, sent to the Children of Israel.

Essentially we believe in and worship the same God, but Christians also associate others such as Jesus (peace be on him) in the divinity that we believe belongs exclusively to God alone.

Does that help any?

Peace.
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greenhill
01-25-2016, 02:29 AM
Welcome to the forum.

I guess the answer has been given. .

Wishing you a great stay

:peace:
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Pmb
01-25-2016, 05:26 AM
What a nice, warm welcome. Thank you all for the very helpful responses.

I would now like to ask for a good book which helps a non-Muslim come to understand Islam as much as possible. I studied some of it as an undergraduate since I went to a college in the Catholic, Augustinian tradition. As such I was required to study religion. However that was some 30 years ago.

Also, if I get into another situation where I run into another Christian who again tries to convince me that Islam has a different God than Christianity how should I respond? E.g. is there something in the Qu'ran which states this explicitly?

Again, I thank all of you for the warm welcome and for your very helpful responses.
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Pmb
01-25-2016, 05:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
Hello to you

Welcome to forum or should I say welcome back.

Shortly to say, yes, Islam teach that Muslims, Christians and Jews are believing to the same God. In the Quran Christians and Jews are mentioned as the "People of the Book" - they have got before message from the God and Muslims respect same prophets than Jews and Christians. Difference is of course that to us Jesus was the prophet, not "the son of the God".
Thank you. Please allow me to share with you what really irritates me about those Christians who deny this. They use the argument that since the God they worship is the Father or Jesus and that Islam denies this then they can't be the same God. The irritating part is that Jews believe the same thing but they don't deny that Christians believe the same thing. :o
It's too bad because Jesus is a prophet in Islam but not in Judaism.

That kind of reasoning really irritates me.
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greenhill
01-25-2016, 07:16 AM
That's probably because Jesus (pbuh) came after... very much like Muhammad (pbuh), who came after Jesus, is denied as being a prophet by the Christians and Jews alike.

:peace:
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Eric H
01-25-2016, 09:03 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Pmb; and welcome to the forum,

However we juggle our beliefs about, we are all created by the same God, the same God hears all our prayers, and we shall all have to stand before the same God.

Searching for God is not so much an academic exercise, you have to do something, I was in my late forties when I found the need to search for God, life seemed to have something missing. I have heard this called the God hole which is inside every one of us. If you try filling this hole with more money, more possession's, more holidays, more relationships, the God hole remains empty, it can only be filled by God.

Beyond a doubt, the Jews are God's chosen people, Christians are chosen by Christ and in Islam, Allah chooses whom he wills. It seems we are all called. We need to search in our hearts as to where we are being led.

In the spirit of searching for God,

Eric
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sister herb
01-25-2016, 09:22 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pmb
Thank you. Please allow me to share with you what really irritates me about those Christians who deny this. They use the argument that since the God they worship is the Father or Jesus and that Islam denies this then they can't be the same God. The irritating part is that Jews believe the same thing but they don't deny that Christians believe the same thing. :o
It's too bad because Jesus is a prophet in Islam but not in Judaism.

That kind of reasoning really irritates me.
Don´t judge those (Christians) too much - remember that they are mostly laity, whose knowledge about their religion might be low.
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Insaanah
01-25-2016, 11:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pmb
Also, if I get into another situation where I run into another Christian who again tries to convince me that Islam has a different God than Christianity how should I respond? E.g. is there something in the Qu'ran which states this explicitly?
Yes, but they might not accept that as they might not believe in the Quran as a revealed scripture from God. Nevertheless, the Qur'an is quite clear. Note that the Qur'an is God's words (English translation below), and also that Allah is Arabic for God:

And do not argue with the People of the Scripture except in a way that is best, except for those who commit injustice among them, and say, "We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you. And our God and your God is one; and we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." (29:46)

And the Qur'an is also clear that Jesus (peace be on him) is not God, and nor did he ever claim to be:

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. (5:72)

Nor is there a trinity:

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the third of three." And there is no god except one God. And if they do not desist from what they are saying, there will surely afflict the disbelievers among them a painful punishment. (5:73)

They are invited to seek forgiveness, the doors are open:

So will they not repent to Allah and seek His forgiveness? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (5:74)

And a scene on Judgement day is painted. God knows exactly what Jesus (peace be on him) said, but this conversation will take place to illustrate to mankind, in Jesus's own words, that he never claimed to be God. How could he rebel against the God who sent him to tell people to worship one God, and instead (or alongside) claim divinity for himself?:

And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.
I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness. (5:116-117)

God also says:

It is not for a human [prophet] that Allah should give him the Scripture and authority and prophethood and then he would say to the people, "Be worshippers of me rather than/apart from Allah," but [instead, he would say], "Be pious scholars of the Lord because of what you have taught of the Scripture and because of what you have studied." Nor could he order you to take the angels and prophets as lords. Would he order you to disbelief after you had been Muslims? (Qur'an 3:79-80)

Does that help as regards to Qur'anic verses?
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BlueOwl358
01-25-2016, 11:59 AM
They are the same cause the Bible says they are, in the language of the Arabs, and according to Christian Arabs themselves.

.فِي الْبَدْءِ خَلَقَ اللهُ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضَ (Genesis 1:1, Arabic Version)

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage...A1&version=NAV

If you check any translation of the Bible into Arabic, this word of Allah will be used everywhere, because it is the Arabic translation of God. We Muslims didn't invent the language you know. Also, Allah is similar to the world Elah, which is the Aramaic word for God. Jesus spoke Aramaic, and the word of Elah was the word used by Jesus (pbuh). Allah is closer to this word of Jesus (pbuh) then the word God ever was.

Even the part "Al" is a prefix, so the actual term for a deity in Arabic becomes Ilah. If you add the prefix, it becomes The God, or a proper term. These two terms of Ilah and Elah are practically the same in their pronunciation. This can also be related to the Hebrew term Elohim, which is very common in the Bible, and means gods or deities, and thus plural.

http://www.hebrew4christians.com/Nam...Elah/elah.html

Any person who has studied linguistics, biblical history, or even critical bible analysis, can tell you this, or even someone who speaks Hebrew or Arabic. So just find someone with origins in the Mid-East. :P

That is just the etymological side, everyone else has told you the theological side.
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Pmb
01-25-2016, 03:31 PM
Thanks Eric.
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Beyond a doubt, the Jews are God's chosen people, Christians are chosen by Christ and in Islam, Allah chooses whom he wills. It seems we are all called. We need to search in our hearts as to where we are being led.
Question: I find this part of your comment to be a bit confusing. For Jews and Christians you use the word "God" but for Islam you translated God into its Arabic word for the term, i.e. Allah. I'm curious as to why?
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Eric H
01-25-2016, 06:35 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Pmb;

Question: I find this part of your comment to be a bit confusing. For Jews and Christians you use the word "God" but for Islam you translated God into its Arabic word for the term, i.e. Allah. I'm curious as to why?
In the Bible it says God, and in the Qur'an it says Allah chooses whom he wills. I was just trying to quote both scriptures truthfully.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric
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Pmb
01-26-2016, 04:53 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
In the Bible it says God, and in the Qur'an it says Allah chooses whom he wills. I was just trying to quote both scriptures truthfully.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric
Thanks Eric. May I ask whether your version an English translation or is it in Arabic?
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Scimitar
01-26-2016, 05:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pmb
Hello everyone,

I joined this forum to learn about Islam. I learned the basics in college and through out the last 15 years. I belonged to an Islam board before but I forgot its URL.

One of the main questions that sparked me to join just now is whether the God of Islam is the same God as Judaism and Christianity. I believe that they're all one and he same God. I'm agnostic and have decided to increase my knowledge of Christianity so I joined a Christianity discussion forum. One of the members today claimed today that the God of Islam is not the same God as the God of Islam. I think they hold that to be true because each religion has different beliefs about God. That's a very poor argument because Christians and Jews also have different beliefs about God but they don't hold that the God of Judaism is not the same God of Christianity - They're all the God of Abraham.

Any thoughts on this are very welcome.
For most of us, we presuppose a premise that God is above any need or want - and hold fast to this idea as a firm base for belief. However, we as a species are diverse and have many languages. And with prejudice, we often build up barriers which stop us from learning about each others true theology.

We may find we have more in common than not.

One of the main factors I see prop up on forums is the idea that if a God is of a different name - it is a different God. If the theology is different, then yes - it's a different god that is worshipped.

But in most cases I have found that people of the world, even parts where Islam may never have reached, have had held onto the idea that God is 1 and is above need and want - is the creator of all. And this alludes to the possibility of prophets who may have visited these people in an ancient past undocumented.

As wondrous as this is, we find ourselves arguing and debating idiots with agendas on forums without giving eachother much of a chance to actually share something amazing which can make us all really take a step back in wonderment and appreciate God in all His magnificence as much as we humanly can.

yes, we still find the odd person who will say "Your God is different to my god because the names are different".

I don't believe it matters, as long as we are referring to the same God - the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, Everything - we should aim to call him by the best of names.

It's quite fascinating to learn that even the jungle cultures of this world have remarkable similarities to the Monotheistic concept of God, and how the concept relates directly to the rendering of the spoken name of God.


THE ZULU CONCEPT


In South Africa, the Zulus, a very virile and militant people - a nation akin to the Qureish of pre- Islamic Arabia - have given a name to God Almighty - uMVELINQANGI. This word when properly articulated in its own dialect, sounds identical to the Arabic words Walla-hu-gani, meaning - "And Allah is Rich" (Bounteous). It also sounds like "Allegany" of the Red Indians of North America (Remember their ALLEGANY mountain). The origin or real meaning of the word "Allegany," is not commonly known to the American people. But ask any Zulu as to who or what this uMvelinqangi is and he will surely explain to you in Zulu:


"HAWU UMNIMZANI! UYENA, UMOYA OINGCWELE. AKAZALI YENA, FUTHI AKAZALWANGA; FUTHI, AKUKHO LUTMO OLU FANA NAYE."


Believe me, this is almost a word for word translation of Sura Ikhlas, Chapter 112 of the Holy Qur'an.




SAY: HE IS ALLAH THE ONE AND ONLY;
ALLAH, THE ETERNAL ABSOLUTE;
HE BEGETTETH NOT, NOR IS HE BEGOTTEN:
AND THERE IS NONE LIKE UNTO HIM.
- Holy Qur'an 112:1-4

Now, compare the above verses with the translation of what the Zulu actually said:

"Oh Sir! He is a pure and Holy Spirit, He does not beget and He is not begotten, and further there is nothing like Him."

Every African tribe, South of the Zambesi River, that is, in Southern Africa, have given different names to the Almighty - Tixo, Modimo, uNkulunkulu, etc., and each and every African language group will take pains to explain the same pure and holy concept as the Zulu. It is to the glory of the African nations that though they had no written languages, and hence no written records, therefore not being able to recount the names of their respective prophets, yet not a single one of the tribes ever stooped down to worshipping idols or images of either of men or animals, until the White man first introduced his religion and gave the African his anthropomorphic concept of God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost, and brought the African down to bowing before the statues of Jesus, Mary, St. Joseph, St. Christopher and so on.

Out of the dozens of African tribes inhabiting this part of the world, not a single one of them ever made "umfanegisos" (images) of their God. Yet they were capable of carving out of wood, elephants and lions, and reproducing men and women also, in clay. Besides, the Zulus also had some knowledge of metallurgy. When questioned an old Zulu as to the reason, why the Africans did not make umfanegisos of their Gods, he replied, "How could we make images of Him (God Almighty) when we know that He is not like a man, He is not like a monkey, or an elephant or a snake: He is not like anything we can think of or imagine. He is a pure and Holy Spirit."

LIKE THE ARABS

This term, uMVELINQANGI, though well known to the Zulus, was not commonly used. Again they were like the pagan Qureish of Pre-Islamic Arabia who knew the name Allah, but passed Him by, because they felt that He was too High, too Pure, too Holy to be approached, so they went for their substitutary and imaginary gods - their Al- Lats, AI-Uzzas and Al-Manats and a hundred besides. The Zulus too would not call upon uMvelinqangi directly, but he was better than the Arab of the Ayyam-ul-jahiliyya (days of ignorance), because he did not go after false gods; he only invoked the spirits of his ancestors to intercede with uMvelinqangi on his behalf, exactly as the Catholics do in invoking the Virgin Mary and the Saints.

The more common term used by the Zulus for their God is uNKULUNKULU which literally means - the Greatest of the Great or the Mightiest of the Mighty (Almighty). More colloquially when taking oath, they would exclaim "iNkosi phe-Zulu" meaning - the Lord Above (knows), or the God in Heaven (knows), or Heaven knows, that I am speaking the truth. The word "zulu" in the language of the Zulu literally means High Heaven, and they consider themselves to be superior to the numerous other tribes of Southern Africa, being in this respect like the Querish among the dwellers of the desert before Islam.

CONCEPT FROM THE EAST

The Hindi word for God Almighty is PRAMATMA. In Sanskrit, the language of ancient India, "Atma" meant the soul, and "Pram-atma" meant the Great and Holy Soul, or the Holy Spirit, which is really a beautiful description of the "Father" in Heaven. The Bible says, "God is Spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and truth" (John 4:24). Not in form, shape or size, but in SPIRIT.
Despite his pantheistic* interpretation of the Divinity, the name the Hindu gives the Supreme Being, in his classical language, is OM (Aum), which means Guardian or Protector. A very suitable attribute about which the Muslim can have no misgivings.

* "Pantheism:" a doctrine in which people believe that God is everything, and everything is God. The Muslim puts the right emphasis when he says - "EVERYTHING IS GOD'S!" Do you realise the stupendous difference this apostrophe 's makes to the concept of God?


CONCEPT FROM THE WEST

The Anglo/Saxon and the Teuton in their own and other allied European languages call their object of worship "GOD" or words of similar sound and import, i.e.

God in English;
Got in Afrikaans (the language of the descendants of the Dutch from Holland in South Africa);
Gott in German; and
Gudd in Danish, Swedish and Norwegian languages.

The ancient Phoenicians called their God - ALLON - (not far from Allah if we could only hear it articulated), and the Canaanites - ADO. The Israelites not only shared the word EL with the original people of Palestine, but borrowed the name of their chief deity - ADO and turned it into ADONAI, and everywhere the four-letter word YHWH occured in their Holy Scriptures, they read "Adonai" instead of "Yahuwa." You will not fail to notice the resemblance between the Jewish Adonai and the heathen Adonis. ADONIS was a "beautiful godling loved by Venus" in the Greek pantheon.

THE LATIN CONCEPT

In the Latin-dominated languages of Western Europe, where Latin had remained dominant in learning and diplomacy for centuries, the chief term used for God is DEUS:

Deus in Portuguese;
Dieu in French;
Dio in Italian;
Dies in Spanish;
Dia in Scotch and Irish; and
Duw in Welsh.

Surprisingly in all the languages above, Deus and all the similar sounding words mean heaven.

Moulana Vidyarthi, in his monumental work - "Muhammad in World Scriptures," devotes a hundred pages to the names of God in the different languages. And out of a list of 155 attributive names, over 40 of them use the word "Heaven" or the "Above," in their language in describing God. Though the Muslim chants the Asma-ul-husna (the most beautiful names), 99 as derived from the Holy Qur'an with the crowning name, ALLAH; "Heaven" is not one of those ninety-nine attributes. Symbolically, heaven may be described as the abode of God, and in the words of Wordsworth in Tintern Abbey:

WHOSE DWELLING IS THE LIGHT OF SETTING SUNS, AND THE ROUND OCEAN AND THE LIVING AIR, AND IN THE BLUE SKY, AND IN THE MIND OF MAN: A MOTION AND A SPIRIT THAT IMPELS ALL THINKING THINGS, ALL OBJECTS OF ALL THOUGHTS, AND ROLLS THROUGH ALL THINGS.


CONCEPT FROM BEYOND THE FAR EAST

Among all the 155 tantalising names of God in the various tongues, the one that tickled me most was - "A-T-N-A-T-U!" - and this I have adopted as a title of my book, instead of the original title promised - "What is His Name!" for this present publication.

WHAT IS SO FUNNY OR SO NOVEL ABOUT ATNATU?

The aborgine of South Australia calls his God "Atnatu" because some philosopher, poet or prophet had programmed him, that the Father in Heaven is absolutely free from all needs; He is independant; He needs no food nor drink. This quality, in his primitive, un-inhibited language, he conversely named ATNATU, which literally meant "the One without an anus - the One without any flaw" - i.e. the One from Whom no impurity flows or emanates. When I started sharing this novel idea with Hindu, Muslim and Christian friends, without exception, their immediate reaction was one of mirth, they giggled and laughed. Most of them not realising that the joke was on them. The boot was on the other foot. Though the word "anus" is a very small word, only four letters in English, most people have not heard it. One is forced to use the colloquial substitute which I hesitate to reproduce here, nor will I use the same in public meetings because of people's hypersensitivity - because in the words of Abdullah Yusuf All, people "HAD PERVERTED THEIR LANGUAGE ONCE BEAUTIFUL, INTO JARGONS OF EMPTY ELEGANCE AND UNMEANING FUTILITY."

Therefore to ease the situation, in a round-about-way let us say that where you have an "input," you must allow for an "output." The one who eats, must have the call of nature - the toilet or the bush - and our primitive friend smelt the need, which he could never attribute to his Creator. Therefore, he called his God - ATNATU! 'The one without the excretory system or its tail end.

GOD EATS NOT!

This novel concept of God by primitive man, is not really altogether novel. God Almighty conveys the same truth to mankind, as in His Last and Final Revelation - The Holy Qur'an - but in a language so noble, so sublime, as befitting its Author. But because of its very finesse, and refined manner of expression we have overlooked the Message. We are commanded to say to all those who wish to wean us from the worship of the One True God -

SAY: "SHALL I TAKE FOR MY PROTECTOR ANY BUT ALLAH
THE ORIGINATOR OF THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH?
WHEN IT IS HE WHO FEEDS BUT HAS NO NEED TO BE FED."
- Qur'an, Surah An'am 6:14

In other words, we are made to declare that - "WE WILL NOT TAKE ANYONE AS OUR LORD AND PROTECTOR, OTHER THAN ALLAH (Lit. - The One God), WHO IS THE WONDERFUL ORIGINATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.".
___

What one shouldn't do is attempt to claim you worship a different God based on the name you are knowing HIM by. What one may be surprised to find is that theologically, people actually have a lot more in common and Islam has the truth of the fruit to prove it. Just re-read this post if you do not believe me.

God bless,
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Eric H
01-26-2016, 06:08 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Pmb;

I have not read the Qur'an, everything I have learned about Islam, has come from the brothers and sisters on this forum. They seem encouraged and inspired by their scriptures, in very much the same way as I am. This leads me to believe that their faith also comes from the same God that I worship.

Now, did God make a mistake when he gave me a Catholic faith, and did the same God, Allah make a mistake when he gave our friends here a faith through Islam?

I should not compromise my Catholic faith, in the same way Muslims should not compromise their trust in Allah, so how do we search for the oneness and unity of God through all this diversity? I believe the answer hangs on the way we see salvation, if I should achieve salvation, it will not be through my efforts, but rather it will be through the grace, mercy and forgiveness of God. I pray that people of all faiths and no faith will have this same salvation.

We are each chosen by the same God, something within us will guide our path, but we have to do something.

In the spirit of searching for God and a greater interfaith friendship.

Eric
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Pmb
01-26-2016, 06:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Timi Scar
I don't believe it matters, as long as we are referring to the same God - the Creator of the Heavens and the Earth, Everything - we should aim to call him by the best of names.
If you were to review my questions and comments above you'd see that my goal is to prepare myself for when I run into more Christians who believe that Muslims and Christians don't worship the same God. If the English version of the Qu'ran uses the term Allah then that's one of the things that support their belief. So it indeed very much matters if it leads non-Muslims to wrong beliefs about Islam. And I've seen this happen.
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sister herb
01-26-2016, 07:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pmb
If you were to review my questions and comments above you'd see that my goal is to prepare myself for when I run into more Christians who believe that Muslims and Christians don't worship the same God. If the English version of the Qu'ran uses the term Allah then that's one of the things that support their belief. So it indeed very much matters if it leads non-Muslims to wrong beliefs about Islam. And I've seen this happen.
I am not sure of other translations but even the Finnish version (my language) of the Quran uses word the God, not Allah. Maybe it helps people to outline the similarity of the God between religions. So, it´s only the decision of the translator, nothing more.
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Kiro
01-26-2016, 01:06 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eric H
Greetings and peace be with you Pmb;



In the Bible it says God, and in the Qur'an it says Allah chooses whom he wills. I was just trying to quote both scriptures truthfully.

In the spirit of searching for God

Eric
it's mainly a tradition thing I believe as the origin and use of Allah became popular with the Arabs. Also, Allah is quite unique in Arabic and the Quran is in its language (the Arabic language) so you use the word Allah since it is more 'Islamic' as it derives from the Quran and Islam. It translates to The God and you cannot apply gender to it and so on. I guess it is also to do with history as there use to be loads of idols and Allah has no plural and Allah is The God. The one true God. Catch my drift?

Since the scriptures do not have their original language then they can be referred to as God in many different languages with no specific. But 'Allah' is the chosen name of God and it is the name used in Surah Al-Fatiha. Allah isn't just a title, but also a name for God (Ilah).

Any scholars feel free to correct me :shade:
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Scimitar
01-26-2016, 02:54 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pmb
If you were to review my questions and comments above you'd see that my goal is to prepare myself for when I run into more Christians who believe that Muslims and Christians don't worship the same God. If the English version of the Qu'ran uses the term Allah then that's one of the things that support their belief. So it indeed very much matters if it leads non-Muslims to wrong beliefs about Islam. And I've seen this happen.
Oh that is all? Bro your solution is simple.

Arab Christians call God, ALLAH... Al-Lah literally translates to The God.

Bro let me tell you something, Enlgish speaking unilingual people are stupid because they do not understand what etymology, philology and morphology is - on that basis they are monkeys mate. Unable to comprehend methodology.

Scimi
Reply

Insaanah
01-26-2016, 07:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pmb
May I ask whether your version an English translation or is it in Arabic?
format_quote Originally Posted by Pmb
If the English version of the Qu'ran uses the term Allah
format_quote Originally Posted by sister herb
even the Finnish version (my language) of the Quran uses word the God
Just to clarify, in case there's any misunderstanding, that there are no versions of the Qur'an. There is only one Qur'an, that all Muslims all over the world believe in and read and recite, word for word, in Arabic, as revealed by God. There are however, different translations. But they are not different versions, that might differ in teachings or might be longer or shorter than others.

Peace.
Reply

Insaanah
01-26-2016, 08:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pmb
If the English version of the Qu'ran uses the term Allah then that's one of the things that support their belief.
That's interesting. The bible reports that Jesus (peace be on him) cried out on the cross to God: And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").
Mark 15:34

If a different word makes them believe that we worship a different God, then using that logic, Jesus (peace be on him) used the word Eloi, so he too worshipped a different God. Do you see? It is just silly. Do they really think Jesus spoke English and used the word God?

The word that Jesus (peace be on him) is mentioned as using in the Bible, is the equivalent of Elahi, in Arabic, which means my God. We worship the same God that Jesus (peace be on him) worshipped, instead of worshipping Jesus. Did Jesus worship himself? No.

We worship the same God, that Moses (peace be on him) worshipped:

When he saw a fire and said to his family, "Stay here; indeed, I have perceived a fire; perhaps I can bring you a torch or find at the fire some guidance."
And when he came to it, he was called, "O Moses,
Indeed, I am your Lord, so remove your sandals. Indeed, you are in the sacred valley of Tuwa.
And I have chosen you, so listen to what is revealed [to you].
Indeed, I am Allah. There is no God except Me, so worship Me and establish prayer for My remembrance. (20:10-15)

[Mention] when Moses said to his family, "Indeed, I have perceived a fire. I will bring you from there information or will bring you a burning torch that you may warm yourselves."
But when he came to it, he was called, "Blessed is whoever is at the fire and whoever is around it. And exalted is Allah, Lord of the worlds.
O Moses, indeed it is I - Allah, the Exalted in Might, the Wise."
(27:7-9)

And when Moses had completed the term and was traveling with his family, he perceived from the direction of the mount a fire. He said to his family, "Stay here; indeed, I have perceived a fire. Perhaps I will bring you from there [some] information or burning wood from the fire that you may warm yourselves."
But when he came to it, he was called from the right side of the valley in a blessed spot - from the tree, "O Moses, indeed I am Allah, Lord of the worlds."
(28:29-30)

The same God Jesus (peace be on him) worshipped:

They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers. (5:72)

The same God Abraham (peace be on him) worshipped:

Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." (2:133)

Indeed, Abraham was a [comprehensive] leader, devoutly obedient to Allah, inclining toward truth, and he was not of those who associate others with Allah. (16:120)

Then We revealed to you, [O Muhammad], to follow the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth; and he was not of those who associate with Allah. (16:123)

And Abraham, when he said to his people, "Worship Allah and fear Him. That is best for you, if you should know. (29:16)

Peace.
Reply

sister herb
01-26-2016, 09:03 PM
Yep, sorry, I meant translation, not different version. Bad English... :omg:
Reply

Pmb
01-27-2016, 01:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Timi Scar
Bro let me tell you something, Enlgish speaking unilingual people are stupid because they do not understand what etymology, philology and morphology is - on that basis they are monkeys mate. Unable to comprehend methodology.

Scimi
Hi Scimi. Thanks for the response. Many thanks.

I don't know whether I can agree with that in all cases. One of the people I spoke to has a PhD in philosophy, as a pastor at a local Christian church and who also teaches world religion in college. He too believes that nonsense. But I found the following and e-mailed it to him this morning. It's from a web page entitled:
Do Christians And Muslims Worship The Same God? (I couldn't post the URL because I'm not a full member yet).
The Second Vatican Council, speaking to Catholics back in 1964, affirmed that Muslims "together with us adore the one, merciful God." And Amy Plantinga Pauw, a professor of Christian theology at Louisville Seminary, says Christians can have their own definition of God while still seeing commonality with Muslims and Jews.

"To say that we worship the same God is not the same as insisting that we have an agreed and shared understanding of God," Pauw says.
Reply

Pmb
01-27-2016, 02:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
That's interesting. The bible reports that Jesus (peace be on him) cried out on the cross to God: And at three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, "Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?" (which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").
Mark 15:34

If a different word makes them believe that we worship a different God, then using that logic, Jesus (peace be on him) used the word Eloi, so he too worshipped a different God. Do you see? It is just silly. Do they really think Jesus spoke English and used the word God?
I don't think people here understand where I'm coming from. Of course I think that's silly. It's downright illogical in fact. What I'm seeking is a solid and convincing way to get them to see their mistake. In the case you mention, these same Christians that I know look at the term Eloi as the literal translation of God in Greek (or is Eli the Greek for God?). But they interpret the term Allah not as a translation of the term God into another language but as the proper name for entity that the Muslims worship. All that is based on ignorance only.

format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
The word that Jesus (peace be on him) is mentioned as using in the Bible, is the equivalent of Elahi, in Arabic, which means my God. We worship the same God that Jesus (peace be on him) worshipped, instead of worshipping Jesus. Did Jesus worship himself? No.
Again, these are all things that I'm well aware of. I want to make that clear so that nobody wastes their time telling me things I already know. Please don't interpret this as impatience on my part but as a mere courtesy for the people posting here. I most certainly don't mean any disrespect by it. Okay? :) But don't take that to mean that I know everything about Islam either! :)

format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
We worship the same God, that Moses (peace be on him) worshipped:
Not only do I agree but so did the Second Vatican back in 1964. :)
Reply

Pmb
01-27-2016, 02:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
Just to clarify, in case there's any misunderstanding, that there are no versions of the Qur'an. There is only one Qur'an, that all Muslims all over the world believe in and read and recite, word for word, in Arabic, as revealed by God. There are however, different translations. But they are not different versions, that might differ in teachings or might be longer or shorter than others.

Peace.
I disagree. When others and myself mean by a version of the Qu'ran is the same thing we mean by a version of the Bible. It refers to a translation from the language the scriptures were written in into English. By different versions of the Qu'ran is meant different translations from the original Arabic into a particular language.

That's why we understand "version" to mean "translation". Didn't you gather that much from the similar use of the phrase used to refer to the Bible?
Reply

Scimitar
01-27-2016, 03:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pmb
Hi Scimi. Thanks for the response. Many thanks.

I don't know whether I can agree with that in all cases. One of the people I spoke to has a PhD in philosophy, as a pastor at a local Christian church and who also teaches world religion in college. He too believes that nonsense. But I found the following and e-mailed it to him this morning. It's from a web page entitled:
Do Christians And Muslims Worship The Same God? (I couldn't post the URL because I'm not a full member yet).
The Catholics worship 3. Your question should be "do Muslims worship the same gods? (plural)"

We worship THE ONE.

Scimi
Reply

Pmb
01-27-2016, 05:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Timi Scar
The Catholics worship 3. Your question should be "do Muslims worship the same gods? (plural)"

We worship THE ONE.

Scimi
Scimi - Please note that I didn't come here to discuss the Holy Trinity. That's something that Christians and Muslims have had a difference in understanding for a millennium and a half. We're not going to agree on this here, that's for certain. And I'm agnostic at the moment too. I highly recommend that you find a text on Systematic Theology on the internet and read what Christians mean by the Trinity. But ask any Christian and they'll tell you straight out - They do not believe in the existence of three different Gods and as such they most certainly don't worship three different Gods.

That said I'll make this statement once and only once and then never again: All Christians, Catholics included. worship one and only one God. Just ask them and they'll tell you. While they may be mistaken regarding the Trinity it certainly doesn't mean they worship three different Gods. Like all Muslims you're confusing the trinity with polytheism. The trinity means that God has three different manifestations of Himself. Not that He's three different Gods. Do you know quantum mechanics (QM) at all? If so then there's a nice analogy that can be used regarding QM. Please keep in mind that an analogy is something which is alike in certain aspects but not all aspects.

Think of God as the superposition of three eigenstates: |Father>, |Son> and |Holy Spirit>. Then God is the following

|God> = |Father> + |Son> + |Holy Spirit>

So when God became flesh in the person of Jesus then the state of God collapsed into |God> = |Son>, etc. But again, this is far from being a perfect analogy and it's certainly not a fact. But it gives you an idea of what 3 Gods = 1 God means.
Reply

Eric H
01-27-2016, 05:31 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Pmb;

"To say that we worship the same God is not the same as insisting that we have an agreed and shared understanding of God," Pauw says.
If the same God is responsible for giving us both the Bible and the Qur'an, then you would expect the same kind of messages in both. The following is something I read in the Bible, but it is in the Qur'an...

Ponder over these two separate Ayaat from the Qur'an..

In one Ayah, Allah says, إِنَّ رَبِّي رَحِيمٌ وَدُودٌ
"Surely, my Lord is Merciful and Loving" (Al-Qur'an)

In another Ayah, Allah says, وَهُوَ الْغَفُورُ الْوَدُودُ
"And He is the Most Forgiving, the Most Loving" (Al-Qur'an)

In one place, Allah links His love to His mercy and in another place, He links His love to His forgiveness.

Why is this?

One of us may forgive the wrongdoings of a person but struggle to love them afterwards. Similarly, we have mercy on a person after their wrongdoing, whilst not loving them.

As for Allah SWT, the matter is altogether different ..

Should we turn to Him in remorse after sin, not only will He forgive and not only will He show mercy, but He will love as well!

That is because Allah "loves those who repent" (Al-Qur'an)

Taken from this forum, http://www.islamicboard.com/general/...ving-love.html

(Imam Ibnul Qayyim)
In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
Reply

Eric H
01-27-2016, 07:02 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Insaanah;

And Abraham, when he said to his people, "Worship Allah and fear Him. That is best for you, if you should know. (29:16)
It seems that God has brought three faiths together in one place.

Abraham was said to have offered his son as a sacrifice in the region of Mount Moriah, Solomon was commanded to build a temple on Mount Moriah, to house the Ten Commandments from Moses.
Jesus sent people to give thanks at the Temple, when he cured them. The Romans then tore the Temple down the second time. It is said to be the place the prophet, pbuh, went up to heaven to meet all the other prophets. The Golden Dome of the Rock now stands where the Temple once stood.

It seems the same God brought our three religions together in one place, and linked us together with many of the prophets. It has been claimed that Jerusalem is the most fought over city in the world.

There has to be a greater good reason why the same God would bring us all together in so many ways.



[IMG]

[/IMG]


In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
Reply

Insaanah
01-27-2016, 07:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pmb
I disagree. When others and myself mean by a version of the Qu'ran is the same thing we mean by a version of the Bible. It refers to a translation from the language the scriptures were written in into English. By different versions of the Qu'ran is meant different translations from the original Arabic into a particular language.

That's why we understand "version" to mean "translation". Didn't you gather that much from the similar use of the phrase used to refer to the Bible?
No. The Protestant Bible has 66 books, the Catholic Bible has 73. Aside from that, some versions of the bible have missing verses, and missing parts of verses. The New International Version is missing Matthew 18:11, as one example.

On the other hand, the Qur'an, in its original Arabic text, has the same words, the world over. There are no versions. There is one Qur'an and there are different translations of it.

Peace.
Reply

Pmb
01-29-2016, 10:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Insaanah
No. The Protestant Bible has 66 books, the Catholic Bible has 73.
Okay. I see what you mean now. Are you aware that the only difference in the bibles is that some of the books in the Catholic Bible are merely missing. The others are ideally identical. That's what I had in mind. Sorry for the confusion and than you very much for pointing that out to me.
Reply

Pmb
01-29-2016, 10:32 PM
Also I meant to say that the information between the two "versions" isn't any different other than the difference in the number of books. Personally I think it was a terrible idea to leave some books out. To my understanding it was only done so that the Bible would only say what they thought it should say and that's a terrible thing.
Reply

Scimitar
02-02-2016, 08:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pmb
Scimi - Please note that I didn't come here to discuss the Holy Trinity. That's something that Christians and Muslims have had a difference in understanding for a millennium and a half. We're not going to agree on this here, that's for certain. And I'm agnostic at the moment too. I highly recommend that you find a text on Systematic Theology on the internet and read what Christians mean by the Trinity. But ask any Christian and they'll tell you straight out - They do not believe in the existence of three different Gods and as such they most certainly don't worship three different Gods.

That said I'll make this statement once and only once and then never again: All Christians, Catholics included. worship one and only one God. Just ask them and they'll tell you. While they may be mistaken regarding the Trinity it certainly doesn't mean they worship three different Gods. Like all Muslims you're confusing the trinity with polytheism. The trinity means that God has three different manifestations of Himself. Not that He's three different Gods. Do you know quantum mechanics (QM) at all? If so then there's a nice analogy that can be used regarding QM. Please keep in mind that an analogy is something which is alike in certain aspects but not all aspects.

Think of God as the superposition of three eigenstates: |Father>, |Son> and |Holy Spirit>. Then God is the following

|God> = |Father> + |Son> + |Holy Spirit>

So when God became flesh in the person of Jesus then the state of God collapsed into |God> = |Son>, etc. But again, this is far from being a perfect analogy and it's certainly not a fact. But it gives you an idea of what 3 Gods = 1 God means.
Are you sure about that?

http://vigilantcitizen.com/forums/Th...a-Can-of-Worms

This proves you wrong my friend. I am the same there as I am here, Scimitar (Timi Scar)

As you can see, the theology of Christianity is the most compromised theology of any faith group in the whole wide world.

To date, no two Christians have been consistent in explaining the trinity.

As for the theology of Christianity - that largely depends on the denomination you side with - it's a mish mash of confuddled ideas mate... my only question is:

Is God the author of confusion?

Scimi
Reply

Eric H
02-02-2016, 09:01 PM
Greetings and peace be with you Timi Scar;

Is God the author of confusion?
I would have to say God is not confused, but God is confusing to us. Why would the same God give us Judaism, Christianity and Islam? then leave each of us with a conviction that our faith is the truth.

I believe the answer is; that we should strive to get on with each other, despite all our differences.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
Reply

Scimitar
02-02-2016, 10:39 PM
I agree, my gripe is with the theology which makes a mockery of God,

I had explained to a member on VC the following just a little while ago.

format_quote Originally Posted by myself on VC forum
I require proof Artful, proof from the written record thart hasn't been molested by the lying pen of the scribes - until you do that - I cannot take what is written in your holy book seriously because it is so compromised - I don't even know where to begin pal
To which a reply returned with:

format_quote Originally Posted by anonymous member from VC
Proof that the Trinity is a monotheistic concept can be found in the quotes of early theologians I previously shared in this thread (pg15 #148), where Trinitarians repeatedly confirm the monotheistic nature of the Trinity.
Whether God actually did reveal Himself through Jesus Christ and whether or not the Trinity is factually how we humans can get to know God, that of course, requires faith.

But like you said on pg 16:

Scimi Wrote:Conviction, comes from faith bro Artful - never the other way round in the Abrahamic traditions. Ever.
to which I returned with:

format_quote Originally Posted by myself
Those theologians you quoted aint worth a dime Art, and you know it.
format_quote Originally Posted by myself
They've neglected to explain, in context, how God became divided into three separate and very distinct entities whilst never doing this since the creation of Adam, and the whole LOGOS argument fails because once again, your theologians have made a mockery of the term and applied it to a human being lol

Bro, you've got to try MUCH harder than this,

Scimi
See the thing is, I studied Christian theology, the variations within and the necessitating of the various denominations wihtin Christianity, all seem to disagree on points of theology.

When the anon member claims he has proof and it doesn't hold up to contextual logic, we have a massive problem with said persons ability to know how to measure a "truth".

I see things like you do - that God is wise and gave us three faiths in the same era to test us as he says in the Qur'an that HE created us as nations and tribes so that we may know each other, and not be enemies of each other - and that the best of us are those who are best in conduct, and that HE is all aware of what we do.

That to me speaks volumes, but when we are discussing theological similarities - Muslims can draw a parallel with Jews, but when it comes to Christians, both the Muslims and the Jews are left scratching our heads wondering what went wrong.., oh wait, we know. But were still beguiled, as we realize how all the corruptions entered the NT yet most Christians ardently are apposed to such views and would prefer to carry on with their bias borne of ignorance.

Can you agree?

Scimi


Reply

Eric H
02-03-2016, 12:27 AM
Greetings and peace be with you Timi my friend;

When the anon member claims he has proof and it doesn't hold up to contextual logic, we have a massive problem with said persons ability to know how to measure a "truth".
I have my own profound thoughts on the Christian teachings of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but I also understand they would not make sense on a Muslim forum, so I try and avoid getting into arguments over beliefs.

I believe that truth is measured not by what we believe to be truth, but rather what that truth inspires us to do. The greater truths will lead to unity, peace, compassion, mercy and kindness.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'

Eric
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Asiyah3
02-03-2016, 05:57 AM
Welcome to the forum. I hope you'll benefit and enjoy your time here. :)
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