Questions about islam.

[Akingfisher]

Even before it was suggested that I try another board other than World Affairs, I had it in mind to do just that, time allowing.

I hope to ask questions with no agenda other than gaining knowledge and answers.

If Muslims can live in genuine and peaceful coexistence despite what some Islamist hard line fundamentalist say, and can be good people without a hidden agenda.

Of course that is welcome.

My questions will be random as they occur to me.

#1

The Victory

1. [48.28] He it is Who sent His Apostle with the guidance and the true religion that He may make it prevail over all the religions; and Allah is enough for a witness.

---

How is this to be achieved please and any idea when this may be or what the criteria are for saying that this has been achieved?

[greenhill]

It is not my place to to give interpretation of this surah.

But it would follow if we take this understanding of the messages. Although many say that the previous Books had been altered over the passage of time and the 'newer' and subsequent Books pretty much brought down the same message over and over again, my research has found that the messages were not all the same. The messages went up incrementally by adding new dimensions to the lessons each time.

The Psalms taught our relationship with Allah via songs of praises, forgiveness etc
The Torah added to that on the human mechanics (do unto others....)
The Bible added the concept of forgiveness (turning the other cheek..)
The Quran gave us the rules to live in a community.. (as well as the lessons from above)

Hence if the message was understood, the learning stages apparent (for humans to mature in reasoning skills) the stage would be set for the Quran to prevail over all other religions..... however, the devil being the devil, has caused mankind to dispute every message Allah has sent and created much confusion, hence Allah is enough for a witness. . .

:peace:

[Akingfisher]

It is not my place to to give interpretation of this surah.

But it would follow if we take this understanding of the messages. Although many say that the previous Books had been altered over the passage of time and the 'newer' and subsequent Books pretty much brought down the same message over and over again, my research has found that the messages were not all the same. The messages went up incrementally by adding new dimensions to the lessons each time.

The Psalms taught our relationship with Allah via songs of praises, forgiveness etc
The Torah added to that on the human mechanics (do unto others....)
The Bible added the concept of forgiveness (turning the other cheek..)
The Quran gave us the rules to live in a community.. (as well as the lessons from above)

Hence if the message was understood, the learning stages apparent (for humans to mature in reasoning skills) the stage would be set for the Quran to prevail over all other religions..... however, the devil being the devil, has caused mankind to dispute every message Allah has sent and created much confusion, hence Allah is enough for a witness. . .

:peace:

Thanks for taking time to reply. Although it hasn't really helped me understand more as it hasn't fully answered my questions.

I don't see how it's a step change up for the better when going from 'turn the other cheek' to 'slay and kill the unbelievers'?

Are there any knowledgeable Imams on this forum who could enlighten me more?

[Akingfisher]

It is not my place to to give interpretation of this surah.

But it would follow if we take this understanding of the messages. Although many say that the previous Books had been altered over the passage of time and the 'newer' and subsequent Books pretty much brought down the same message over and over again, my research has found that the messages were not all the same. The messages went up incrementally by adding new dimensions to the lessons each time.

The Psalms taught our relationship with Allah via songs of praises, forgiveness etc
The Torah added to that on the human mechanics (do unto others....)
The Bible added the concept of forgiveness (turning the other cheek..)

The Quran gave us the rules to live in a community.. (as well as the lessons from above)

Hence if the message was understood, the learning stages apparent (for humans to mature in reasoning skills) the stage would be set for the Quran to prevail over all other religions..... however, the devil being the devil, has caused mankind to dispute every message Allah has sent and created much confusion, hence Allah is enough for a witness. . .

:peace:

The Quran gave us the rules to live in a community.. (as well as the lessons from above)

Is this just for the Islamic Ummah or the non Muslims as well?

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[Scimitar]

The concept of Ummah in Islam is the drawing of a circle around the whole of humanity.

Scimi

[azc]

Does Islam Promote Violence?Q. Doesn’t Islam promote violence, bloodshed and brutality since the Qur’an says that Muslims should kill the kuffar wherever they find them?A: A few selected verses from the Qur’an are often misquoted to perpetuate the myth that Islam promotes violence, and exhorts its followers to kill those outside the pale of Islam.1. Verse from Surah TaubahThe following verse from Surah Taubah is very often quoted by critics of Islam, to show that Islam promotes violence, bloodshed and brutality:“Kill the mushriqeen (pagans, polytheists, kuffar) where ever you find them.” [Al-Qur’an 9:5]2. Context of verse is during battlefieldCritics of Islam actually quote this verse out of context. In order to understand the context, we need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriks (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriks of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriks of Makkah to make amends. Otherwise war would be declared against them. Verse 5 of Surah Taubah says:“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [Al-Qur’an 9:5]This verse is quoted during a battle.3. Example of war between America and VietnamWe know that America was once at war with Vietnam. Suppose the President of America or the General of the American Army told the American soldiers during the war: “Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them”. Today if I say that the American President said, “Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them” without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher. But if I quote him in context, that he said it during a war, it will sound very logical, as he was trying to boost the morale of the American soldiers during the war.4. Verse 9:5 quoted to boost morale of Muslims during battleSimilarly in Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 5 the Qur’an says, “Kill the Mushriks wherever you find them”, during a battle to boost the morale of the Muslim soldiers. What the Qur’an is telling Muslim soldiers is, don’t be afraid during battle; wherever you find the enemies kill them.https://mobile.facebook.com/story.ph...%2Fsearch&_rdr

[azc]

Pope says Koran is a book of peace and Islam is a peaceful religionhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/video/news/video-1140549/Pope-says-Koran-book-peace-Islam-peaceful-religion.html

[greenhill]

Thanks for taking time to reply. Although it hasn't really helped me understand more as it hasn't fully answered my questions.

I don't see how it's a step change up for the better when going from 'turn the other cheek' to 'slay and kill the unbelievers'?

I found this for you.. As I have said above, the devil being the devil will find a way to twist the words and meanings of the message and put it out of context. Hope it helps.

Why does the Quran say that infidels should be killed?

The verse of the Holy Quran is often mentioned to malign Islam. The verse does not say infidels it says idolaters. (9:5) And when the forbidden months have passed, kill the idolaters wherever you find them and take them prisoners, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, then leave their way free. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
This verse, chapter 9 verse 5, is often used as evidence that Islam allows killing of non-Muslims, but what is not recognized is the context and history behind these verses. The history of this verse is that when Prophet Muhammad^sa began preaching the unity of God he was persecuted for 13 years, much as Prophets Abraham and Jesus were. Since Muslims who are being persecuted are encouraged to leave for safer areas, rather than create disorder, Muhammad^sa and his followers migrated to Medina. After they left, the Meccans attacked them in Medina on and off for a period of nine years until Chapter 9 was revealed.
Looking at the context of the verses, it becomes obvious that the commandment of this verse only relates to those tribes who continued hostilities against the Muslims even after they had migrated. In particular, reference is made to 5 tribes (‘Banu Khuza’ah, Banu Mudlij, Banu Bakr, Banu Damrah, and Banu Sulaiim) that did not honor the treaties they made with Muslims. It is also important to remember that the preceding verses give these people respite for 4 months to reconsider their behavior and cease hostilities. Sadly after 4 months passed, the enemies of Islam continued their hostilities against the Muslims. Only then was Prophet Muhammad^sa commanded by God to meet them in battle to defend Muslims and the religion of Islam.
Even in this situation the Quran states that if the enemies repent of their behavior and promise to fulfill their treaties, it becomes incumbent on Muslims to cease military action and forgive them. Unfortunately those who take this specific verse out of context fail to see that as the title Al-Taubah suggests, the main subject matter of the chapter is forgiveness and repentance.


:peace:

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

If Muslims can live in genuine and peaceful coexistence despite what some Islamist hard line fundamentalist say, and can be good people without a hidden agenda.

I don't see how it's a step change up for the better when going from 'turn the other cheek' to 'slay and kill the unbelievers'?

It is interesting you speak of 'peaceful coexistence' yet seem to neglect the fact that coexistence is a two-way process. It's all very well having expectations about Muslims, but what do you hope to achieve by misquoting our Scripture and being fixated on articles which misrepresent Muslims and Islamic teachings? Surely, a person calling to coexistence will approach the issue from a neutral standpoint, not a polarised one.

We actually have coexisted with people of different faiths and none on this forum for many years, and continue to do so.

[Akingfisher]

Does Islam Promote Violence?Q. Doesn’t Islam promote violence, bloodshed and brutality since the Qur’an says that Muslims should kill the kuffar wherever they find them?A: A few selected verses from the Qur’an are often misquoted to perpetuate the myth that Islam promotes violence, and exhorts its followers to kill those outside the pale of Islam.1. Verse from Surah TaubahThe following verse from Surah Taubah is very often quoted by critics of Islam, to show that Islam promotes violence, bloodshed and brutality:“Kill the mushriqeen (pagans, polytheists, kuffar) where ever you find them.” [Al-Qur’an 9:5]2. Context of verse is during battlefieldCritics of Islam actually quote this verse out of context. In order to understand the context, we need to read from verse 1 of this surah. It says that there was a peace treaty between the Muslims and the Mushriks (pagans) of Makkah. This treaty was violated by the Mushriks of Makkah. A period of four months was given to the Mushriks of Makkah to make amends. Otherwise war would be declared against them. Verse 5 of Surah Taubah says:“But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: for God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.” [Al-Qur’an 9:5]This verse is quoted during a battle.3. Example of war between America and VietnamWe know that America was once at war with Vietnam. Suppose the President of America or the General of the American Army told the American soldiers during the war: “Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them”. Today if I say that the American President said, “Wherever you find the Vietnamese, kill them” without giving the context, I will make him sound like a butcher. But if I quote him in context, that he said it during a war, it will sound very logical, as he was trying to boost the morale of the American soldiers during the war.4. Verse 9:5 quoted to boost morale of Muslims during battleSimilarly in Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 5 the Qur’an says, “Kill the Mushriks wherever you find them”, during a battle to boost the morale of the Muslim soldiers. What the Qur’an is telling Muslim soldiers is, don’t be afraid during battle; wherever you find the enemies kill them.https://mobile.facebook.com/story.ph...%2Fsearch&_rdr

I understand your point and analogy.

Why is it that there are so many groups around the world claiming to be Muslims of one sort or another who clearly do not understand what you have said?

They proclaim world wide conquest and submission to Allah for Muslims and non Muslims alike with everyone ruled by Sharia law!

Also, as I understand it, there is the division between Dar al Islam and Dar al Harb, which means eternal conflict until the world is under Islamic rule.

On Google images you can see many photos of Muslim men women and children, with placards saying things like 'Islam will dominate the world' 'Sharia will dominate the world' even things such as 'behead those who say Islam is violent' 'Europe you will pay 9/11 on it's way' etc!

How is it that many many Muslims are so confused about their religion?

Where do they get these ideas that are opposite to what you say?

What Imams/Mosques are teaching these things?

[Akingfisher]

Greetings,



It is interesting you speak of 'peaceful coexistence' yet seem to neglect the fact that coexistence is a two-way process. It's all very well having expectations about Muslims, but what do you hope to achieve by misquoting our Scripture and being fixated on articles which misrepresent Muslims and Islamic teachings? Surely, a person calling to coexistence will approach the issue from a neutral standpoint, not a polarised one.

We actually have coexisted with people of different faiths and none on this forum for many years, and continue to do so.

I have quoted what some Muslims say and proclaim loudly! Therefore, it is not me sowing division, I am asking questions, if it causes embarrassment that's not my fault!

Asking questions about what some Muslims say, which are extreme in the their content, to clarify whether it's Islamic or not, is not being polarised or biased.

Also, the articles that I have posted are about what some Muslims say and do, things that they believe are Islamic which you claim are not Islamic or Muslim teachings!

Therefore, rather than turn things back at me, perhaps you can explain the great division between Muslims who have opposite views and ideas to you about Islam?

The Koran is supposedly full of 'clear guidance' so why the confusion?

Are the Muslims who say and do the opposite of what you say is Islamic real Muslims?

As for coexistence, why are there verses that say something like, 'do not take Christians and Jews for friends?'

---

The Dinner Table

1. [5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

[Search]

:bism: (In the name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)

I have quoted what some Muslims say and proclaim loudly! Therefore, it is not me sowing division, I am asking questions, if it causes embarrassment that's not my fault!

Why would your questions cause embarrassment? I don't know about you, but I wonder sometimes if you can honestly hear your questions: It is not what you're asking, btw; it is generally the "how" you're asking that is generally problematic i.e. tone/undertone.

Asking questions about what some Muslims say, which are extreme in the their content, to clarify whether it's Islamic or not, is not being polarised or biased.

Also, the articles that I have posted are about what some Muslims say and do, things that they believe are Islamic which you claim are not Islamic or Muslim teachings!

Therefore, rather than turn things back at me, perhaps you can explain the great division between Muslims who have opposite views and ideas to you about Islam? Opposite ideas to what?

I don't see how bro Muhammad has done or stated anything in this thread on which basis you are asking this question. Bro Muhammad only asked you for a little of the same introspection that you constantly have been demanding of us as Muslims on IB. Honestly, he's just asking for some self-reflection, which btw, is part of self-accounting known as "muhasabat al-nafs" that Muslims are encouraged to do. I honestly feel that even when your questions are answered, your distrust of Muslims and Islam clouds your judgment and that judgment drives all your interpretations of Islam and interactions with Muslims.

The Koran is supposedly full of 'clear guidance' so why the confusion? Quran is full of clear guidance,

but clear guidance must be received by a clear heart in order to be understood. This is a requirement within the Quran. Why do you think terrorists go around misinterpreting verses of the Quran. Do you think they have a clear heart? Quran says (3:7):
It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific.
As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them].

Are the Muslims who say and do the opposite of what you say is Islamic real Muslims?

First and foremost, I have not seen brother Muhammad say anything here except that Muslims have been practicing coexistence for centuries, which is true. And why would Muslims accept a fringe minority (i.e. terrorists) who would call to death Muslims themselves who defy or deny their extreme and hostile interpretations of Islam?

As for coexistence, why are there verses that say something like, 'do not take Christians and Jews for friends?'

First and foremost, everything has a context. You do realize that Muslim males are allowed to marry Christian and Jewish females? Marriage is the most intimate of relationships and naturally requires friendship and sharing of confidences and giving and receiving advice. If the verse you quoted would have been interpreted literally, then Muslims would never have been allowed to marry any persons from the People of the Book. Ever. However, God giving this allowance itself means that you are misinterpreting the verse. Muslim scholars also have given a context of this verse and say that Muslims with strong religious commitment may have non-Muslim friends but only if that friendship (a) is not so close as to potentially negatively influence the Muslim and (b) does not interfere with specific Islamic religious duties and obligations. This is because our peers influence what we do and how we do things in our life. So, there is no disbarment of friendship as long as that friendship meets the above two criteria, as distinguished by scholars.

The Dinner Table

1. [5.51] O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

[azc]

I understand your point and analogy.Why is it that there are so many groups around the world claiming to be Muslims of one sort or another who clearly do not understand what you have said?They proclaim world wide conquest and submission to Allah for Muslims and non Muslims alike with everyone ruled by Sharia law! Also, as I understand it, there is the division between Dar al Islam and Dar al Harb, which means eternal conflict until the world is under Islamic rule.On Google images you can see many photos of Muslim men women and children, with placards saying things like 'Islam will dominate the world' 'Sharia will dominate the world' even things such as 'behead those who say Islam is violent' 'Europe you will pay 9/11 on it's way' etc!How is it that many many Muslims are so confused about their religion?Where do they get these ideas that are opposite to what you say?What Imams/Mosques are teaching these things?

Dude, Sorry to say that your a biased person.Raising placards appears to be a crime against coexistence theory whereas millions of innocent children, old men, women have been killed and are still being killed around the globe is overlooked?Was it a fault of Muslims that despite having ruled over several non Muslim countries like Spain and India etc for centuries they didn't convert all non believers to Islam by using force? Was it their fault for believing in peaceful coexistence living.Some ppl humiliate our prophet s.a.w by caricaturing as if it were an act of civilised and well mannered people (?) but why Muslims protest against this freedom of speech? Perhaps, it's the major fault of Muslims. They're authorised to hurt the feelings of Muslims by burning Quran. Why Muslims don't burn bible or Torah in retaliation (?)Whoever perpetrated nine eleven were terrorists and who're behind the black mask are terrorist. We condemn all sorts of terrorist activities being perpetrated around the globe.If Muslims are perpetrating terrorist activities and killing innocent non Muslims, this act can't be justified at all. They are terrorist and they are accountable on judgement day.

[Akingfisher]

Dude, Sorry to say that your a biased person.Raising placards appears to be a crime against coexistence theory whereas millions of innocent children, old men, women have been killed and are still being killed around the globe is overlooked?Was it a fault of Muslims that despite having ruled over several non Muslim countries like Spain and India etc for centuries they didn't convert all non believers to Islam by using force? Was it their fault for believing in peaceful coexistence living.Some ppl humiliate our prophet s.a.w by caricaturing as if it were an act of civilised and well mannered people (?) but why Muslims protest against this freedom of speech? Perhaps, it's the major fault of Muslims. They're authorised to hurt the feelings of Muslims by burning Quran. Why Muslims don't burn bible or Torah in retaliation (?)Whoever perpetrated nine eleven were terrorists and who're behind the black mask are terrorist. We condemn all sorts of terrorist activities being perpetrated around the globe.If Muslims are perpetrating terrorist activities and killing innocent non Muslims, this act can't be justified at all. They are terrorist and they are accountable on judgement day.

You seem confused.

Raising placards is not a crime in itself! It's what those placards say that matters!

All the other stuff you have said has no bearing on my point or question. You have gone off topic.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Surely, a person calling to coexistence will approach the issue from a neutral standpoint, not a polarised one.

How is his position any less neutral than yours, which says "Islam is true, perfect and unimprovable, and the Qur'an is a sacred book and I believe everything in it"? What could be more polarised than that?

We actually have coexisted with people of different faiths and none on this forum for many years, and continue to do so.

And you've banned dozens of them for asking too many inconvenient questions.

Peace

[azc]

You seem confused.Raising placards is not a crime in itself! It's what those placards say that matters!All the other stuff you have said has no bearing on my point or question. You have gone off topic.

neither confused nor am off the topic, rather you didn't grasp it.You've objections on them raising play cards but you've no objections on killing the innocent ppl??? See post#3, the opposite is happening.''kill wherever you find them''. Who are being killed?

[Muhammad]

I have quoted what some Muslims say and proclaim loudly!

What some Muslims, or what some Buddhists, or what some Christians, or what some atheists are doing out there is not reflective of what the rest of the people believe and do. This much should be clear in the mind of anyone who wishes to achieve coexistence. To gain clarity on what is Islamic or not, you'd be better placed to research the actual teachings of Islam as opposed to selecting negative portrayals and posting them here.

[Muhammad]

Greetings czgibson,

How is his position any less neutral than yours, which says "Islam is true, perfect and unimprovable, and the Qur'an is a sacred book and I believe everything in it"? What could be more polarised than that?

The polarity being referred to here isn't about what we individually believe. It's about approach and attitude towards each other. My being a Muslim and believing everything in the Qur'an does not stop me peacefully coexisting with others, as has been the case for Muslims for hundreds of years. But reinforcing misconceptions and prejudice against Muslims serves nothing in the way of peaceful coexistence.

And you've banned dozens of them for asking too many inconvenient questions.

If that were the case, you would not still be here after ten years.

[Akingfisher]

What some Muslims, or what some Buddhists, or what some Christians, or what some atheists are doing out there is not reflective of what the rest of the people believe and do. This much should be clear in the mind of anyone who wishes to achieve coexistence. To gain clarity on what is Islamic or not, you'd be better placed to research the actual teachings of Islam as opposed to selecting negative portrayals and posting them here.

The trouble is, that the false Muslims(according to you) seem to get all the headlines, by making more noise in public than the real Muslims.

They also, quote Islamic texts, so I check it out, by posting here.

It would be good if the real Muslims here weren't so touchy and defensive, I'm not accusing anyone here of supporting the false Muslims.

Just seeking clarification.

[Akingfisher]

neither confused nor am off the topic, rather you didn't grasp it.You've objections on them raising play cards but you've no objections on killing the innocent ppl??? See post#3, the opposite is happening.''kill wherever you find them''. Who are being killed?

Didn't say that, I pointed out that there are Muslims with these placards saying all these things!

As far as I am concerned anyone can raise placards about anything at all, I like and value total freedom!

If they break any law that's their problem.

[Muhammad]

The trouble is, that the false Muslims(according to you) seem to get all the headlines, by making more noise in public than the real Muslims.

I have not used the term 'false' Muslim. We may disagree with the actions of some Muslims and point out their errors, but it is generally not the place of a lay Muslim to declare someone else a false Muslim.

I agree that part of the problem is sensational headlines, not necessarily that it is because some make more noise. That is why I suggest you should not be mislead by headlines and instead research the religion if you want answers.

It would be good if the real Muslims here weren't so touchy and defensive,

By all means, seek clarification. However, as stated above, it is the undertone of your questions and the pattern of repeatedly posting negative press which raises the question of whether you are actually seeking clarification or trying to make a point. The latter is something we have observed from others a number of times before.

I pointed out that there are Muslims with these placards saying all these things!

You will find all sorts of strange things not only on placards, but even various forms of media. This includes lies and threats towards Muslims. But as we know, there are better ways to understand a people than looking at placards or seeing how negatively they have been described in the news.