Violence is more prevalent in the Bible than the Quran text analysis proves

[Glac09]

A textual analysis comparing the Quran and the Bible has revealed that violence is more prevalent in the Christian holy book than Islam’s holiest scripture.

Investigating whether the Quran is more violent than its Judeo-Christian counterparts, software engineer Tom Anderson processed the text of the Holy books to find which contained the most violence.

In a blog post, Mr Anderson explains: “The project was inspired by the ongoing public debate around whether or not terrorism connected with Islamic fundamentalism reflects something inherently and distinctly violent about Islam compared to other major religions.”

Using text analytics software he had developed, named Odin Text, he analysed the New International Version of both the Old and New Testaments as well as an English-language version of the Quran from 1957.

It took just two minutes for his software to read and analyse the three books.

By categorising words into eight emotions – Joy, Anticipation, Anger, Disgust, Sadness, Surprise, Fear/Anxiety and Trust – the analysis found the Bible scored higher for anger and much lower for trust than the Quran.

Further analysis found the Old Testament was more violent than the New Testament, and more than twice as violent as the Quran.

Mr Anderson summarises: “Of the three texts, the content in the Old Testament appears to be the most violent.

“Killing and destruction are referenced slightly more often in the New Testament (2.8%) than in the Quran (2.1%), but the Old Testament clearly leads—more than twice that of the Quran—in mentions of destruction and killing (5.3%).”

However, he adds: “First, I want to make very clear that we have not set out to prove or disprove that Islam is more violent than other religions.

“Moreover, we realize that the Old and New Testaments and the Quran are neither the only literature in Islam, Christianity and Judaism, nor do they constitute the sum of these religions’ teachings and protocols.

“I must also reemphasize that this analysis is superficial and the findings are by no means intended to be conclusive. Ours is a 30,000-ft, cursory view of three texts: the Quran and the Old and New Testaments, respectively.”

More...

[Pygoscelis]

Not at all surprising to me. The bible, especially the old testament, is full of violence, and worse yet, violence ordered by Bible God. That said, the Quran does have some violence in it too, yes?

[Abz2000]

Not at all surprising to me. The bible, especially the old testament, is full of violence, and worse yet, violence ordered by Bible God. That said, the Quran does have some violence in it too, yes?

Maybe because you (albeit erroneously) believe that the Canadian government is somehow less violent and more love and peace?
Or that maybe it's a fact that the incidence of unjustifiable violence and other crimes amongst the citizens is much higher in societies where the Abrahamic "religions" hold less sway over the day to day lives of the masses (probably even after excluding from the calculation the deeds which each "religion" exclusively considers a crime).
Do the math before jumping on the judgemental bandwagon dude, coz it comes across like you somehow feel that this is an opportunity to puff out your chest in the false illusion that atheism is the sinless (illegitimate) "love" child in this equation.

Regarding the op's quote, it seems an acknowledged fact that previous scripture (in the line of human events) is more violent amongst those more aware of facts and is somehow twisted for the gullible masses who actually fall for the regularly misconstrued and distorted lamestream news:

Given Dom’s Christ-like qualities, it’s interesting that his foil Agent Hobbs (Dwayne Johnson) is described in the films using Old Testament terms. Literally. “This guy, he’s Old Testament: blood, bullets, wrath of God,” says Brian O’Conner when Hobbs is introduced in*Fast Five.*Judging from his own use of metaphors, Hobbs agrees. “I’m gonna come down on them like the walls of Jericho,” he growls in*Fast & Furious 6.*Like the heroes of the Old Testament, Hobbs is all about justice: punishing sinners (“You just earned yourself a dance with the devil,” he tells Jason Statham’s villain Shaw in*Furious 7) and rewarding the righteous.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

Not at all surprising to me. The bible, especially the old testament, is full of violence, and worse yet, violence ordered by Bible God. That said, the Quran does have some violence in it too, yes?

I agree with you, the story of creation is barely over, and God is angry at how wicked the people are, so he brings on the flood, killing of most of creation. If you look at the world today, we are probably no better, we allow twenty thousand children to die every day, as a result of starvation, grinding poverty and preventable disease. Not to mention all the wars and injustice that go on every day.

I think the greater question is this, does the violence in the Bible and Qur'an inspire it's followers to be violent?

The greatest commandments are to love God and to love your neighbour as you love yourself, meaning you should aspire to do what is greatest.

In the spirit of searching for a just and merciful God.

Eric

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[Abz2000]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;



I agree with you, the story of creation is barely over, and God is angry at how wicked the people are, so he brings on the flood, killing of most of creation. If you look at the world today, we are probably no better, we allow twenty thousand children to die every day, as a result of starvation, grinding poverty and preventable disease. Not to mention all the wars and injustice that go on every day.

I think the greater question is this, does the violence in the Bible and Qur'an inspire it's followers to be violent?

The greatest commandments are to love God and to love your neighbour as you love yourself, meaning you should aspire to do what is greatest.

In the spirit of searching for a just and merciful God.

Eric

The following list should provide some insights:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_invasions

Maybe categorize them by prevalent ways of life rather than the religion people halfheartedly claim to subscribe to.
....maybe the so called "renaissance" is the cause of the colourful top three.

[ardianto]

Not at all surprising to me. The bible, especially the old testament, is full of violence, and worse yet, violence ordered by Bible God. That said, the Quran does have some violence in it too, yes?

Greeting Pygoscelis

Holy books, including Qur'an, indeed contain violence. However, the holy books also contain love and care to the others which much much more than violence.

But the most important is how a religious person see the religion. If he believe that religion teaches love and care, then the religion would motivate him to become the peaceful person who love and always care to the others. But if he believe that religion allow violence, then he would use religion as justification to do violence toward the others.

:)

[sister herb]

Those kind of people whose believe that religion allows violence don´t actually need religions at all. If they wouldn´t find anything from their religions what justify their violent ideas, they simple create some other ideology more suitable for them - like some political theory. They are those whose use religions as excuse for all evil they do. What is said or not in some holy text, doesn´t cause their evil actions.

[Serinity]

Many verses containing violence are restricted to situations and circumstances... Without that, I can go out and kill everyone and quote the Quran.. But that is not honesty.

Ie. If you form a conclusion before reading a book, you are going to see that book through these 'glasses'. Ie. If I want to kill people. And I start with the conclusion

"ehh, killing feels nice, and I enjoy it, lets see what the Quran says about this gratifying experiencing of killing people.. I love blood.. " And then procceeds..

What one's heart seeks is what it is going to end with. So if I seek violence I can easily justify my actions. But this is wrong.

In shaa' Allah I made sense lol. Don't start with the conclusion. Read the book first, and then see what the Book tells you, not what YOU want it to tell you.

[Eric H]

greetings and peace be with you Abz2000;

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_invasions

Thanks for the link, I scanned through the conflicts quickly, and I don't see God or religion as the cause of most of these wars. Israel and Gaza was at the top of the list, Israel is mostly secular now, and tends to overlook the scriptures that say...

Deuteronomy 27
19 “Cursed is anyone who withholds justice from the foreigner, the fatherless or the widow.”

Exodus 22:21
"Do not mistreat an alien or oppress him, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Leviticus 24
You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.

Leviticus 19
33 " 'When an alien lives with you in your land, do not mistreat him. 34 The alien living \with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt. I am the LORD your God.

Ezekiel 47
21 “You are to distribute this land among yourselves according to the tribes of Israel. 22 You are to allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the foreigners residing among you and who have children. You are to consider them as native-born Israelites; along with you they are to be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel. 23 In whatever tribe a foreigner resides, there you are to give them their inheritance,” declares the Sovereign LORD.

Exodus 12:49
The same law applies to the native-born and to the alien living among you."

Leviticus 19:10
Do not go over your vineyard a second time or pick up the grapes that have fallen. Leave them for the poor and the alien. I am the LORD your God.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

[Abz2000]

Violence is a survival mechanism and an essential part of human nature, just as love, care, sorrow, anger, happiness, trustworthiness and justice are, Allah has presented varying models of operation through the ages and has sent down Islam, the completed, balanced and most stable method in the final and global age of mankind's tenure on earth as it reaches it's final stage. Searching for the term "monopoly on violence" https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monopoly_on_violence and objectively researching should bring any intelligent person to the logical conclusion that the Islamic method is the most stable and widely encompassing standard which can bring overall peace and justice to makind on a global level where differences will only mean anarchy and fiefdom. It is the height of folly to pretend that the capacity for violence and peace do not reside within the human at one and the same time and that a person should be categorized as being either peaceful or violent despite a just balance of all natural tendencies being present in such a person, the question which would inevitably arise though is "who judges?", its only logical and reasonable answer is "Allah who created us all and runs the universe, so let's use His standard of rule in order to succeed and get the best of both worlds".

You say the torah is too violent and unworkable, you say the n.t is unworkable on a governmental scale, you tried with the u.n and the security council and received war upon war, injury upon injury, now try the truthful and just way which is Islam.

وَإِن طَائِفَتَانِ مِنَ الْمُؤْمِنِينَ اقْتَتَلُوا فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا فَإِن بَغَتْ إِحْدَاهُمَا عَلَى الْأُخْرَى فَقَاتِلُوا الَّتِي تَبْغِي حَتَّى تَفِيءَ إِلَى أَمْرِ اللَّهِ فَإِن فَاءتْ فَأَصْلِحُوا بَيْنَهُمَا بِالْعَدْلِ وَأَقْسِطُوا إِنَّ اللَّهَ يُحِبُّ الْمُقْسِطِينَ

And if two parties or groups among the believers fall to fighting, then make peace between them both, but if one of them rebels against the other, then fight you (all) against the one that which rebels till it complies with the Command of Allah; then if it complies, then make reconciliation between them justly, and be equitable. Verily! Allah loves those who are equitable.
{9*049:009*Khan:

16“To what can I compare this generation?
They are like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling out to others:
17“ ‘We played the pipe for you,and you did not dance;we sang a dirge, and you did not mourn.’

18For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, ‘He has a demon.’
19The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners.’
But wisdom is proved right by her deeds.”

From Matthew 11

[sister herb]

About this list of invasions, it´s hard to say which one of those had really anything to do with the religion. With most of them people used religion as excuse to attack and conquest other´s areas. But for this we can´t blame religions themselves. They had been happened anyways and now we could read from the history books the more real reasons for them: greed of power and wealth, need to get more areas to own populations and to get more natural resources.

As Muslim, I could say of course that there was the religion aims behind in the early Muslim conquests.

[ardianto]

Voilence is a survival mechanism and an essential part of human nature,

I think you don't understand the difference between self defense and violence. Self defense indeed is a survival mechanism, but violence is not. Violence is a method to force to the others to follow what one party want.

[Abz2000]

I think you don't understand the difference between self defense and violence. Self defense indeed is a survival mechanism, but violence is not. Violence is a method to force to the others to follow what one party want.

I think you don't know what i understand.
The government doesn't arm police and soldiery with truncheons and guns solely for the purpose of defending themselves but to enforce a way of life.

[Pygoscelis]

Those kind of people whose believe that religion allows violence don´t actually need religions at all. If they wouldn´t find anything from their religions what justify their violent ideas, they simple create some other ideology more suitable for them - like some political theory. They are those whose use religions as excuse for all evil they do. What is said or not in some holy text, doesn´t cause their evil actions.

I agree with most of what you say here. Violent hateful people are going to be violent hateful people regardless of holy books or religions. But I would hasten to add that when holy books have passages in them that appear to call or or justify such hate and violence, it is often used by these people to justify themselves and their actions. Religion is rarely the cause of hatred and violence, but it is often the focus point, or the excuse for it, or the expression of it.

The Bible, for example, says both to turn the other cheek and an eye for an eye. It says to not be yoked with non-christians and to love all men as brothers. Depending on what is in your heart, people take very different messages from the same book. And Islam has inspired and justified both the most peaceful, kind and generous muslims such as yourself, while also inspiring and justifying horrid groups such as Isis.

I think the greater question is this, does the violence in the Bible and Qur'an inspire it's followers to be violent?

The greatest commandments are to love God and to love your neighbour as you love yourself, meaning you should aspire to do what is greatest.

Eric, you are one of the good ones :) We need more like you, and less like Fred Pheps. Unfortunately the bible has passages that support both those like you and those like him. As Ardianto said above, these books and religions are approached and presented differently depending on who is speaking/reading.

About this list of invasions, it´s hard to say which one of those had really anything to do with the religion. With most of them people used religion as excuse to attack and conquest other´s areas. But for this we can´t blame religions themselves. They had been happened anyways and now we could read from the history books the more real reasons for them: greed of power and wealth, need to get more areas to own populations and to get more natural resources.

Indeed. Religion is for the most part just how they sell it to the people. War, invasion, murder, etc, isn't something most of us want to do to one another. Leaders learned long ago that to make the populace accept such things, you need to dehumanize, or demonize the victims/opponents, and religion is a powerful tool for doing that somewhat literally.

It also provides an excuse to leaders, calling upon a higher power than themselves or their populace, in taking such actions. You don't need to explain or answer questions when you make the answer "because God says so, who are you to question God?". Make it as authoritarian as possible, and you can't get more authoritarian than Gods, and people tend to stop challenging.

It is nice when good religious people resist that and respond with calls that no, God doesn't want that, and we do see a lot of this thankfully, but many others blindly follow the leader and push "With us or against us" to the point of "with us or against God"... You can see this in Bush's early speeches when he invaded Afghanistan.. he called it a crusade.

[Pygoscelis]

Maybe because you (albeit erroneously) believe that the Canadian government is somehow less violent and more love and peace?
Or that maybe it's a fact that the incidence of unjustifiable violence and other crimes amongst the citizens is much higher in societies where the Abrahamic "religions" hold less sway over the day to day lives of the masses (probably even after excluding from the calculation the deeds which each "religion" exclusively considers a crime).
Do the math before jumping on the judgemental bandwagon dude, coz it comes across like you somehow feel that this is an opportunity to puff out your chest in the false illusion that atheism is the sinless (illegitimate) "love" child in this equation.

This ramble of yours is quite an immense and humourous load of straw. I said none of what you seek to put in my mouth.

Atheism is a lack of belief in God(s). It isn't a religion or an ideology, so it can't be sinless or virtuous. It is basically a lack of context. Nobody does good works or is kind because they lack belief in God(s). Nor does a lack of belief make anybody kill or hate other people. Atheists are just as capable of all the hatred and violence and sectarianism that you seem to enjoy in your particular vision of Islam, and just as capable as being as kind and gentle Muslims such as Ardianto and Sister Herb here draw from their vision of Islam. The main difference is that atheists don't have any religious context to set it all in.

[Serinity]

To use religion to forcibly control a people, is wrong.

If we alm started killing eachother because we don't like eachother, then we will one day be no better than hitler.

Violence upon violence and war will errupt. As long as love exists, hatred too will. But many seem to misplace hatred. Every enemy/opponent has a weakness. As only Allah is all powerful without flaw. Fact is, the intellectual response to an opposing force or attack is not, while understandable, attacking mindlessly.

It is to hit the weak point and the target. Leave it up to wisdom, Allah says you can retaliate in the same manner BUT it is better to take the better option! AFAIK.

In many cases to retaliate with violence will bring about more violence, but obv if someone attacks you, you can defend yourself etc.

I am not saying to become pacifistic, but to choose the better option, you be the judge, if in a situation attacking is better the. Do THAT!
Not all violence is babaric. It only becomes babaric if used in an unreasonable manner.

The start of wars is usually because of lack of communication or unsolved problems/misunderstandings..

if that problem is not fixed via patient dialogue etc. It will end in war no matter how small the problem was, the actual problem is the fact that the problem is not addressed. It then becomes a seed, then a tree with roots. It becomes the reason for war. Obv there are exceptions.. I am probably biased

may Allah forgive me for whatever wrong I said. Ameen.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis; you seem to be a better Christian or Muslim, than many Christians and Muslims :)

I can only think of a couple of recent leaders, who used religious principles in times of conflict, Mahatma Gandhi and Nelson Mandela. When Nelson Mandela died, both Bush and Blair sang the praises of a remarkable man, Bush and Blair had more power than Nelson Mandela, but they did not have his convictions, strength or courage to strive for peace.

The Bible, for example, says both to turn the other cheek and an eye for an eye.

But it clearly sets out the greatest commandments; to love God and all your neighbours, including those who persecute you. Anything else we choose to do is less great, it has to include, justice, mercy, kindness and compassion for all people.

It also provides an excuse to leaders, calling upon a higher power than themselves or their populace,

Leaders can call on a higher power, but if leaders inspire a nation to do evil, they will have to stand before God.

It seems rare that people in power fear God, but the fear of God has brought about change in the past. William Wilberforce fought against slavery for about twenty years in parliament; and lost every time. That is until he came up with the line, at some point we shall all have to stand before God, how will you justify your stance on slavery, then he had a landslide victory.

It is nice when good religious people resist that and respond with calls that no, God doesn't want that,

It's very rare that the common people can stand against their leaders, I think both Blair and Bush used the well known Herman Goering principle / formula for war.......

“Why of course the people don't want war. Why should some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally the common people don't want war: neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But after all it is the leaders of a country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or fascist dictorship, or a parliament or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the peace makers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people,

Eric

[Abz2000]

This ramble of yours is quite an immense and humourous load of straw. I said none of what you seek to put in my mouth.

Atheism is a lack of belief in God(s). It isn't a religion or an ideology, so it can't be sinless or virtuous. It is basically a lack of context. Nobody does good works or is kind because they lack belief in God(s). Nor does a lack of belief make anybody kill or hate other people. Atheists are just as capable of all the hatred and violence and sectarianism that you seem to enjoy in your particular vision of Islam, and just as capable as being as kind and gentle Muslims such as Ardianto and Sister Herb here draw from their vision of Islam. The main difference is that atheists don't have any religious context to set it all in.

I Can comprehend your limits on intelligence from the fact that you know a little about history and current events, have read the Quran in your own language and haven't accepted it as the most supreme standard of measure for justice, universal harmony and character, and can perceive an image of very narrow shrewdness in the fact that you choose to spend time giving dawah to Muslims that they should be peaceful and submissive while your elected leaders slaughter them without right or just reason and loot their resources.
another aspect of that narrow shrewdness is the fact that you choose the divide and conquer strategy of accusing Islam of being a manufactured falsehood, and God of being a false illusion while appeasing and placating those so called Muslims who ignore the fact that Islam is an all encompassing complete way of life which is prescribed and enjoined by the creator of mankind, upon mankind, and seek to make it akin to the jennings membership club for the sake of membership and knowing in the mind that they're somehow members with zero acton on pertinent issues which affect the nation, while you continue to attack the active relevant body of Muslims who strive to uplift themselves and others from the state of humiliation and injustice imposed upon them.
your predecessors used a similar method by erectng the Ahmadis and NOI as a fake counter balance and only managed to succeed in confusing themselves and their people a to the truth and led themseles and their flock to hell.
do not in any way assume that you are thereby confusing or deceiving people who use their intellects and study the facts for themselves because you confuse and deceive only yourself and those with corrupted and weak software like yourself.
i can't pretend to expect you to know any better despite the obvious fact tn Islam, sin means crime, and virtue means good deeds, the fact that i have to go into detail on the issue ought to shed light upon the elementary level of this dialogue and the fact that i seek your and my betterment and that of those who may be ignorant s to the facts - namely, if ian action is a deed which would bring on the displeasure of God, it is a crime which is often interchangeably called sin, and it if is a good deed which would please God, it is a virtue, get it? Kingdom on earth - as in heaven :)
i am aware that it may be difficult for you to grasp at first because your leaders have taken the position of false Gods ith supreme authority over you and have conjured upon your mind the illusion that they have the authority to say "be" abd it "is" or "so let it be written, and so let it be done", but they too are in for a big shock due to the fact that it is the creator and sustainer of the heavens and the earth who retains all priveliges to that right, and that the only legitimate way for man to legislate is within and in tune with the boundaries of the laws set in place by the creator. And thinking that you citizens are the gods who elect and legislate only shows the impotence and cnfusion of your situation.
Adios.







36.*Pharaoh said: "O Haman! Build me a lofty palace, that I may attain the ways and means
37.*"The ways and means of (reaching) the heavens, and that I may mount up to the Allah of Moses: But as far as I am concerned, I think (Moses) is a liar!"
Thus was made alluring, in Pharaoh's eyes, the evil of his deeds, and he was hindered from the Path; and the plot of Pharaoh led to nothing but perdition (for him).
38.*The man who believed said further: "O my people! Follow me: I will lead you to the Path of Right.
39.*"O my people! This life of the present is nothing but (temporary) convenience: It is the Hereafter that is the Home that will last.
40.*"He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed - whether man or woman - and is a Believer- such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): Therein will they have abundance without measure.
41.*"And O my people! How (strange) it is for me to call you to Salvation while ye call me to the Fire!
42.*"Ye do call upon me to blaspheme against Allah, and to join with Him partners of whom I have no knowledge; and I call you to the Exalted in Power, Who forgives again and again!"
43.*"Without doubt ye do call me to one who is not fit to be called to, whether in this world, or in the Hereafter; our return will be to Allah. and the Transgressors will be Companions of the Fire!
44.*"Soon will ye remember what I say to you (now), My (own) affair I commit to Allah. for Allah (ever) watches over His Servants."

Before this We wrote in the Psalms, after the Message (given to Moses): My servants the righteous, shall inherit the earth."
21:105

[emem]

Does the Old Testament or the Bibles really entail that it's believers do damage or violent acts in this life? I'm confused. Just to be sure. Thank you very much.

[Serinity]

There is reasonable war and unreasonable war.

If you do war just to prove your existence, or for no other reason but to appear great.. Then perhaps one has forsaken themselves?

Cause if people do not come to dialogue and understanding eachother.. Then only pain will exist, and if we can't come to an understanding, then fear and terror will continue to exist.

I know there are criminals and those who cause corruption, if dialogue won't work with them, then obv, what other option than killing do we have?

Those who want to talk, with dialogue, we shall talk with them, but those who want to wage war for no reason, try to understand them, and come to dialogue.

If talking to their conscience won't work. Talk to their logic. If the logic and conscience does not respond, then question their humanity. If they still won't & and don't want to understand, then what is his life worth living?

And perhaps do question yourselves, when giving dawah. Perhaps what you want to deliver is understood differently from their side? What you wanted to convey may have been understood the opposite way?

Allah says, that He SWT won't change the condition of a people unless they change what is inside of themselves. So perhaps, the problems we face, may infact just be the repercussions of our own actions?

[Abz2000]

Much is truthful and from Allah, some is changed in copying and translation, other parts have been maliciously added for those who would justify their whimsical actions.
which is why we should be very careful in confirming and denying, what is clear however that we have the Quran before us which confirms some of what was revealed before and supercedes other previous commands which are no longer relevant or applicable to the situation.
and we always must be careful of those with malicious objectives who would capitalize on some brow raising statements in the O.T and make us deny it all despite some being factual and from Allah, and also begin a divide and conquer bickering contest while they sit back and watch in glee, or defensively confirm our accepteptance of all of the falsehoods that have been added to it and thereby make people doubt the justice of Allah while they who commit injustice and are the initiators of such climb onto an illusory high horse of fake piety and sound mindedness and put us in a trance that makes us bow to their fake notion of justice, non-violence and neutrality.
It is clear from the Quran that Musa and his people were commanded to carry out armed jihad in the way of Allah after leaving Egypt and that their cause was just at the time and circumstance

[Serinity]

Much is truthful and from Allah, some is changed in copying and translation, other parts have been maliciously added for those who would justify their whimsical actions.
which is why we should be very careful in confirming and denying, what is clear however that we have the Quran before us which confirms some of what was revealed before and supercedes other previous commands which are no longer relevant or applicable to the situation.
and we always must be careful of those with malicious objectives who would capitalize on some brow raising statements in the O.T and make us deny it all despite some being factual and from Allah, and also begin a divide and conquer bickering contest while they sit back and watch in glee, or defensively confirm our accepteptance of all of the falsehoods that have been added to it and thereby make people doubt the justice of Allah while they who commit injustice and are the initiators of such climb onto an illusory high horse of fake piety and sound mindedness and put us in a trance that makes us bow to their fake notion of justice, non-violence and neutrality.
It is clear from the Quran that Musa and his people were commanded to carry out armed jihad in the way of Allah after leaving Egypt and that their cause was just at the time and circumstance

Many times timelines an era's can define & determine whether an action is justified etc.

For example, for one to kill every kafir right now, for not accepting Islam, would be unreasonable, etc. But we know that Isa AS would come down and kill anyone who does not accept Islam, cuz at that time, there is way too much wealth etc. Dunya isn't worth it anymore. AFAIK.
What I am saying, what is reasonable now, may be unreasonable tomorrow, what is unreasonable now, may be reasonable in the future. t

There are exception tho. where something is 100% evil no matter the Era.

[keiv]

Well, "violence" in the context of this piece of software can be a range of things based on certain keywords. For one example, if there is a command or a story which talks about destroying idols, does that count as an act of "violence"? What about if we're told to take up arms for self defense? Everything that is in the Quran, whether you view it as "violent" or not, is justifiable one way or another. Using a computer program to tell us that the Quran is not as violent as everyone thinks really means nothing, imo. If someone has a question regarding a verse or hadith, they can take that up with a scholar who has real knowledge on the matter.

[Serinity]

The easiest way to turn a huge nation against another nation is through propaganda.

Ie. by calling the other the spawn of the devil, or the son of the devil etc.... "they are the evil one's" etc...

But Truth, ie. Islam, speaks for itself, so we don't have to make excuses or appear weak when the enemies or an honest guy comes and questions.. Rather, people should think, cause one can not believe if he does not think!

Believing without thinking is blind faith... Which is bad.. What I am saying, we don't have to RESORT to dirty tactics like calling them devils etc. Or anything, yes. There are tough times, and times where drastic decision should be executed.

Any honest, sincere, good heart will come to Islam.. Also remember, ask questions, cause those who ask questions and want to know, are the intelligent ones... As long as you don't go over in unnecessary questioning (ie. trying to justify your state of disbelief through questioning)

In short, ask questions, but check your heart. I am speaking to the non muslims and muslims..

It all comes down to your heart. You can ask 1000s of questions, but if you are not sincere, you may never realise the truth. But a sincere heart... Allah guides..

To summarise, Allah knows your heart. So if you are sincere, then no doubt He will guide you.

Ask questions, cause it will benefit you.

[Pygoscelis]

Does the Old Testament or the Bibles really entail that it's believers do damage or violent acts in this life? I'm confused. Just to be sure. Thank you very much.

It does, if you read those parts and take them literally. There are other parts that say the exact opposite as well.

[Pygoscelis]

Any honest, sincere, good heart will come to Islam.. Also remember, ask questions, cause those who ask questions and want to know, are the intelligent ones... As long as you don't go over in unnecessary questioning (ie. trying to justify your state of disbelief through questioning)

This may be your belief, but millions of non-muslims around the world, from Hindus, to Budhists, to Christians, to Jews, to Atheists disagree. And in saying the above, you are implicitly calling them bad hearted, insincere, and unintelligent... since they have not and will not become Muslim. Many Christians say the same regarding their religion, but include Muslims amongst the other non-Christians, and implicitly call them the same.

The question is can you agree to disagree on this point and live and let live, and have sympathy and compassion for your fellow humans despite their religion or "acceptance of Islam", or do you turn to violence and hatred? And can you see beyond Muslim vs Non-Muslim tribalism, or do you paint all Non-Muslims with a broad brush and hold them responsible for he acts of other Non-Muslims, as abz does in his post above to me?

There are exception tho. where something is 100% evil no matter the Era.

Killing people for not believing in your religion is 100% evil, just as killing people for their race, gender, sexual orientation, or nationality is evil.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

And can you see beyond Muslim vs Non-Muslim tribalism,

I just accept people for who they are, I can't change anyone, that is down to God. I start with the thought that we should look for the good in all people, and that everyone matters to God.

I have probably mentioned before that I am a Street Pastor, we wonder the streets on a Friday and Saturday night until about 4 am. Last week we came into contact with people fighting in our local kebab shop which is run by Muslims, we try and stand between the people fighting, and as they came out the shop, we stood by the door preventing them from going back in again.

There was three of us all in our late sixties, including a lady, we have no power to do anything, and physically none of us could do much, other than stand in the middle of drunk people fighting. The police came a few minutes later, the protagonists had disappeared by then, and there was a fairly calm atmosphere with a number of people shaking our hands and thanking us for being there.

We have really good relations with the Muslim kebab workers and taxi drivers, we have stood with them a number of times when drunks have been racist.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

[Abz2000]

Pygo, you appear to be accusing Muslims of being the aggressors and war kindlers "because others don't believe what they believe" and this is furthest from the truth.
The facts are plain to see that irrational and unjustifiable violence and hatred has been directed towards Islam and those who submit to the commands of God by criminals who manipulate you into distrust, hatred and destructive polarisation because they feel threatened by what Islam embodies and rectifies, criminals who have set up for you a fake system of "justice" (protection racket) and a fake economy (doomed to fail from the start) which is about to implode in a big way - especially after the governments stilted them up by buying stagnant assets when they ran out of funds to lend out on usury, ensuring that the headlong fall is worse than it would have been since they created even more fake capital upon the slight adjustment (rectification) the market had begun to make, all with public money after the public was fleeced - despite central banks having been set up as a consortium and powerful financial terrorist lobby union with great fanfare touted as "lender of the last resort" when people began to question what would happen if a bank was unable to pay the people when they lined up for their gold and silver in return for the promissory notes the banks had issued with a clear promise to pay upon demand (still visible on the receipts) especially when they had written out ten times the amount in bad cheques (bank notes/ receipts for pounds of sterling silver etc) that they held as trust (amanah) in metal. That in itself should prove to you the infidelity (research the term if unclear) of such a system, but the fact that roosevelt looted it all and returned it devalued then his successor reneged upon the promise to return coin, promised the world to repay in coin (bullion) only if they set up central banks, not general public who owned the property, coerced and bullied nations into adopting the illegitimate dollar then reneged on that promise too, then continue to force Muslims to accept usurious (infidel) notes and thereby keep bailing out the fake dollar, and even then attacking Muslim nations, calling them terrorists and enemy combatants for resisting illegal wars in the name of peace and ridding us of weapons of mass destruction - which they themselves own and have used in japan - looting their resources while raiding your own treasuries and starting arms races and creating a bigger and infinitely bloating arms industry to keep resupplying. Destabilising then attacking libya after claiming it was "putting the financial secuity of mankind in jeapordy" justbecause it was dumping illegitimate dollars and preparing to put stable gold and silver currency back into the hands of it's citizens, then first destabilizing then travelling to syria to bomb Muslims for attempting to establish Islamic law rather than give asylum to fire and clay worshippers, gays and prostitutes whom you claim to tolerate although finding it difficult to tolerate the niqab, then have the audacity to use the perverted reverse psychology on Muslims by accusing them of your own crime of being intolerant?

I'm sincerely telling you that it is a delusional approach to peace pygo and that the leaders of infidelity are not likely to display fidelity in your case either.
It is your own patriotism, naivety, and greed to share in usury and invest capital in fake cheques that got your fathers into this mess in the first place and Muslims are having to pay the price in blood, do you expect your children to sort it out? Learn to ponder, hold a train of thought, link events, take responsibility for your own actions, before wrongly and slanderously laming your ills upon Muslims, seek the truth, the truth shall set you free. And no, freedom is not vice, this isn't orwellia, it's God's wonderful green earth.
Let us repent and do our best to walk aright before it's too late. And no, don't tax the sugar and salt to ease up capital for the banks, they're essential ingredients for the human body, regardless of what lies jamie oliver and the capitalist shill doctors tell you, take the good advice and practice good judgement though.

Know for certain that Islam is the only refuge to escape from the consequences of your criminal actions, the Prophet (pbuh) doesn't kill the one who escapes his due punishment by proclaiming the shahadah even wahshi and ikrima escaped their certain and just death penalties, and in the eternal sphere, Allah ultimately forgives the one who accepts the truth to the best of his sincere knowledge and seeks to walk aright with sincerity, and please don't pull out fake comparison cards and set up a confused set of balances, you'd only be deceiving yourself though you perceive it not.

[sister herb]

It does, if you read those parts and take them literally. There are other parts that say the exact opposite as well.

We should learn to be careful with kind of sentences whose have removed from the context. The islamophobics do it all the time with the Quran. Let´s try to be wiser than them when it goes to the text of some other´s holy scriptures or if not, we´ll be similar like them.

[Pygoscelis]

Pygo, you appear to be accusing Muslims of being the aggressors and war kindlers "because others don't believe what they believe" and this is furthest from the truth.

No, Abz, if you actually read what I actually wrote, you would see I am not doing that at all. YOU appear to be an aggressor and war kindler. Most other Muslims here appear to be quite the opposite. I don't see all Muslims as the same, the way that you seem to see all kaffir the same.

Know for certain that Islam is the only refuge to escape from the consequences of your criminal actions

What criminal actions have I committed? I have committed none. I am not responsible for the actions of other non-Muslims. But thanks for trying.

Allah ultimately forgives the one who accepts the truth to the best of his sincere knowledge and seeks to walk aright with sincerity

I don't care what you think Allah forgives, as I don't believe there is an Allah to offend. If I seek forgiveness, it is from people I actually wrong, and I try to avoid that in the first place. If you get upset because I don't buy into the concept of your God, then I don't know what to say to you. If you get violent or hateful due to it... there isn't a whole lot I can do about that other than walk away from you and protect myself from you.

[Pygoscelis]

We should learn to be careful with kind of sentences whose have removed from the context. The islamophobics do it all the time with the Quran. Let´s try to be wiser than them when it goes to the text of some other´s holy scriptures or if not, we´ll be similar like them.

I try to avoid quoting scripture (from any holy book) myself. I agree that it isn't my place as a non-believer. But I will point out when believers do it to support negative destructive or hateful actions (ie, Fred Phelps, Joseph Kony, Jerry Fallwell, Isis, Abz above), and praise it when believers do it to support kind and loving actions. You and Eric H here appear to be the latter, so I am glad to praise and encourage you both and sincerely hope that your version of the religions prevail.

[Abz2000]

This is getting monotonous and boring, i don't think i have to keep responding and neither do you, think, choose carefully
time is running out for shoelaces, puma disc is here......God knows why i felt like saying that, just remembered an ad from 25 years ago.
God will go through the crimes in accurate detail when the time comes, no point asking me as i don't watch or manipulate you in your day to day activities.

And no, i didn't always know that Islam is the only option, i just kept thinking it was a big world where we could avoid each other if things got too unbearable, America has opened my eyes, i now realise that Islam is the only option for peace.

If i try to live Islam in the u.k, america and britain accuse me of trying to promote shariah and beheading and stoning in the uk. If i paint over a lewd poster which my children are forced to walk past every day, or pull down a prostitution advert from a phone boith, american and uk media accuse me of being intolerant and hating theur freedoms and get their police to arrest me and their courts to sentence me for "vandalism",
If i set up a metal based currency in muslim lands, america euther stages a coup or starts playing with the global prices until it's all but gone, if i hold the metal in deposit and release paper receipts on trust, the cia churns out billions of it until my notes are near worthless and a loaf of bread costs a million in fiat currency, if i set up courts of justice, the american drones bomb it, if i send out police to enforce Islamic law in Muslim majority lands, America accuses them of being extremist religious intolerant fanatics who must be tortured humiliated at guantanamo bay, then we have to respond to the American citizens in coin, but we must leave lots of leaflets at the scene of operations with exact retaliations described so that american media doesn't change the narrative and say it is because i don't like their so called "freedoms" and that i'm jealous of their debauched "civilization". Then maybe Americans will take notice of their government, because if i put it on a website or social network, america will have it removed and replaced with false claims and narratives.

but maybe i should have seen that it's God's world and God's laws upon all of mankind before God sent me America to teach me what i shoud have before known, because it's God's sun and God's moon, God's clouds and God's guidance.
thou hast enslaved the children of israel
To be or not to be, that my dear watson is the question.

[sister herb]

I try to avoid quoting scripture (from any holy book) myself. I agree that it isn't my place as a non-believer. But I will point out when believers do it to support negative destructive or hateful actions (ie, Fred Phelps, Joseph Kony, Jerry Fallwell, Isis, Abz above), and praise it when believers do it to support kind and loving actions. You and Eric H here appear to be the latter, so I am glad to praise and encourage you both and sincerely hope that your version of the religions prevail.

When I wrote that "we should learn to be careful with text removed from the context" I was thinking mostly like "we Muslims should". Sorry, as quoting your post, it might looked like I critized you. That wasn´t my meaning at all.

[Pygoscelis]

This is getting monotonous and boring, i don't think i have to keep responding and neither do you

And yet you do. And I will too, so long as you speak with hatred. Somebody has to show the people reading that not all kafir are evil, and that we won't stand for hate spread in the name of your religion.

i now realise that Islam is the only option for peace.

By that I take it you mean all of us being forced to become Muslim? I'm afraid that to make that happen, you wouldn't have peace, you would have war, very bloody war. You would have another crusade. And given the modern state of the world and imbalance of military power, you would only be inviting more horror upon yourself and those you care about. Learn to accept that not all of us want to be or will be forced to think as you do, and we can perhaps move towards peaceful co-existence.

If i try to live Islam in the u.k, america and britain accuse me of trying to promote shariah and beheading and stoning in the uk.

It is unfortunate that xenophobia and islamophobia have reached such fevered pitches in those countries, and I stand with innocent peaceful Muslims who are unfairly attacked, and Sikhs who are attacked merely for "looking like Muslims", which is especially ridiculous.

If i paint over a lewd poster which my children are forced to walk past every day, or pull down a prostitution advert from a phone boith, american and uk media accuse me of being intolerant and hating theur freedoms and get their police to arrest me and their courts to sentence me for "vandalism"

If you paint over a poster that was put up legally, then yes, you are committing vandalism. If you can't tolerate such freedom of speech and freedom of expression, then you are perfectly free to leave these countries, as it appears you have done. In the case of an advert for prostitution, I find it unlikely that you would be arrested for pulling one down in the UK, as prostitution adverts are illegal there, no? In Holland, they would be allowed, but you'd know that before moving there, so just stay out. Simple fix for both you and the dutch who are ok with the world's oldest profession.

Going there and complaining about such things is as nutty as me going to Saudi Arabia or Iran and complaining that my spouse and I can't walk down the street naked. We'd know better than to go there if we wanted to do such a thing.

[Pygoscelis]

When I wrote that "we should learn to be careful with text removed from the context" I was thinking mostly like "we Muslims should". Sorry, as quoting your post, it might looked like I critized you. That wasn´t my meaning at all.

No worries. I would hope that you WOULD criticize me were I to say or do something you felt worth criticism. I greatly respect you, and you telling me I did something offensive to you would make me take pause and lead me to reconsider it.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

If you paint over a poster that was put up legally, then yes, you are committing vandalism. If you can't tolerate such freedom of speech and freedom of expression, then you are perfectly free to leave these countries,

I feel troubled that marriage has little meaning today. In the Uk, by the time children reach fifteen years old, around half of them are not living with both their biological parents. It must be disturbing for young children growing up, trying to understand the relationships of their mother, father, step brothers and sisters, step grandparents, cousins uncles and aunts. What must it be like for a fifteen year old, to look round their classroom and quietly understand that the norm almost seems to be growing up in a broken family.

Some of the most disturbed young men I meet, are the ones who have had a child, then fallen out with the mother, so they are not allowed to see their own child much.

First of all I blame my generation for much of the problems, it started off in the 1960's with the birth pill, making it so much easier to sleep around. Advertising companies have enjoyed the freedom that appears to be giving everyone the right to have what they want, because we are worth it.

Society seems to overlook the need for a child to grow up in a loving and caring family, the more important message seems to be that adults have rights without responsibilities. When I go out with the Street Pastor team, it troubles me to know there are many single mothers out drinking until 2 -3 am, they are not with the father of their child, but seem to be looking for a new relationship, leaving their child at home with someone. We can't preach to them about the rights and wrongs, otherwise they will just walk away, so we can only be very gentle with what we say.

All this comes back to your harmless poster of half naked people, and the message that seems to be sold along with it, we have our rights, and we are worth whatever we want. When religion becomes more vocal about the need to stand up for the rights of children, and the responsibilities of parents, we are made to feel like bigots.

In the spirit of praying for families

Eric

[Abz2000]

There's always a tendency to want to get in the last word, especially when you think the other person is clouding the issue with nonsense.

I reciprocate.

Andyet you do. And I will too, so long as you speak with hatred. Somebody has to show the people reading that not all kafir are evil, and that we won't stand for hate spread in the name of your religion.

Not just hatred, but bitterness, fury, apathy, and a slowly kindling and growing desire to see justice and retribution.

By that I take it you mean all of us being forced to become Muslim? I'm afraid that to make that happen, you wouldn't have peace, you would have war, very bloody war. You would have another crusade. And given the modern state of the world and imbalance of military power, you would only be inviting more horror upon yourself and those you care about. Learn to accept that not all of us want to be or will be forced to think as you do, and we can perhaps move towards peaceful co-existence.

:) balance of powers, to Allah belongs all power, the crimes against Muslims are reaching such levels of criminality and hatred that if i am given the authority i will not feel in decision making just as a doctor doesn't feel when carrying out an amputation or deep incision, Allah has already told you that Islam is the only way to success and good reward
And that rejection of it means humiliation in this world and in eternity.
After seeing all that i've seen, experiencing all that i've experienced, feeling all that i've felt, i myself would accept nothing other than total unconditional surrender to God, because your claim that you want to see peaceful coexistence is a tall one, the application of such requires much shift in uniformity and way of life.

It is unfortunate that xenophobia and islamophobia have reached such fevered pitches in those countries, and I stand with innocent peaceful Muslims who are unfairly attacked, and Sikhs who are attacked merely for "looking like Muslims", which is especially ridiculous.

Now now, noooooo need to tell porkies pygo, you justify the attacks against Muslims and often make threats that Muslims deserve it or "can expect it" if they support armed revolutionary groups who retaliate when Muslims are unjustly harmed.

If you paint over a poster that was put up legally, then yes, you are committing vandalism. If you can't tolerate such freedom of speech and freedom of expression, then you are perfectly free to leave these countries, as it appears you have done. In the case of an advert for prostitution, I find it unlikely that you would be arrested for pulling one down in the UK, as prostitution adverts are illegal there, no? In Holland, they would be allowed, but you'd know that before moving there, so just stay out. Simple fix for both you and the dutch who are ok with the world's oldest profession.

Legally lol :) you sound like you don't know the difference between crime (sin) and virtue, but then you did say you "sort of" subscribe to anarchy, because laws wouldn't mean laws if they weren't laws, and accepting the fallacy that a bunch of conflicting laws that are absolute can coexist peacefully is obviously erroneous for any with even half a brain who cares to stop and consider, but yes, you avoided the other points whilst confirming some facts,
Muslims also attempted to establish islamic laws in Muslim lands after a century of colonial serfdom and living under puppets and secular tyrants, they didn't go and strike you in canada or america or britain or france, they sought "to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them" to live and legislate according to Islam when their Form of Government became destructive of the ends of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, it was the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them seemed most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.*but sadly, amarica and the infidel and corrupt ideology which it espouses refused to allow them to live in peace.
And now after "a long train of abuses seeking to acheive invariably the same cause -infidelity, secularism and subjugation to american style ideologies and dictatorship, broken economies and debauched character - upon the whole of mankind - evinced a design to reduce the people of the world to living under absolute despotism, it is our God given right and duty to proclaim the way of Islam oved all other ways of life, however much the infidels and those who attempt to become separate and equal with God do detest it.

Going there and complaining about such things is as nutty as me going to Saudi Arabia or Iran and complaining that my spouse and I can't walk down the street naked. We'd know better than to go there if we wanted to do such a thing.

[/QUOTE]

Umm, i was born there apparently, and you foolishly hand out medals to people who complain about islam in those countries, and you bombed the Islamic state after they gave the yazidis the option of leaving, i still recall the conversation with you where you stood up for the right of the yazidis to have a parallel law in the islamic state pygo.

Anyways, ultimately it was for the good, because separate and equal would've meant a clash in future, might as well get it right now.
Repent, submit to God, live, and let live in peace and justice.

[Abz2000]

Also you talk a good talk about peace and love and harmony, but history proves the fact that no nation worse than america has ever been brought forth for mankind, it must have been a concentrated experiment and demontration for mankind before the restoration of global khilafah upon the path of prophethood.

You America are the worst of nations evolved for mankind, you enjoin what is evil, and you forbidd what is just, you reject God, you give protection to the church of Satan, and you impose treacherous taghut usurpers upon the people of the earth, if only the People of the Book had faith, it were best for them: among them are some who have faith, but most of them are perverted transgressors.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-site-in-mosul

[Pygoscelis]

Not just hatred, but bitterness, fury, apathy, and a slowly kindling and growing desire to see justice and retribution.

Do you foam at the mouth too?

Allah has already told you that Islam is the only way to success and good reward
And that rejection of it means humiliation in this world and in eternity.

I disagree. And I am agreeable to agreeing to disagree without calling for your head. You apparently are not.

After seeing all that i've seen, experiencing all that i've experienced, feeling all that i've felt, i myself would accept nothing other than total unconditional surrender to God

How do you expect non-Muslims to react to this position you take? You leave us no choice but to take up arms against you. You justify the very offensives that you decry, robbing live and let live liberal western people like myself from our arguments against the Donald Trump and George Bushes over here who seek to eradicate you.

Now now, noooooo need to tell porkies pygo, you justify the attacks against Muslims and often make threats that Muslims deserve it or "can expect it" if they support armed revolutionary groups who retaliate when Muslims are unjustly harmed.

If you call for the wholesale slaughter of me and others around me, how do you expect us to react? When you group us all as one and can't tell us apart, seeing us all as the enemy, how are we supposed to treat you? You constantly complain about western aggression and hatred against Muslims. Look in a mirror.

Legally lol :) you sound like you don't know the difference between crime (sin) and virtue

We are going to disagree on what virtue is, especially if you equate it to obedience to your imagined God, instead of empathy towards your fellow humans.

you foolishly hand out medals to people who complain about islam in those countries, and you bombed the Islamic state after they gave the yazidis the option of leaving

No, I didn't. I don't have any bombs or medals to drop on anybody.

i still recall the conversation with you where you stood up for the right of the yazidis to have a parallel law in the islamic state pygo.

And I still recall you calling for their wholesale slaughter. I also recall first meeting you when you called for the hunting down and murdering of homosexuals. And yet you expect us to have sympathy for you and care what you have to say. Go figure.

[Pygoscelis]

You talk a good talk about peace and love and harmony, but history proves the fact that no nation worse than america has ever been brought forth for mankind, it must have been a concentrated experiment and demontration for mankind before the restoration of global khilafah upon the path of prophethood.

First, I'm not American.

Second, even if I was American, I would not be responsible for everything America has done throughout history. You talk in the language of blood feud. Are you not able to see people as individuals? If we generalize a little further than you have, then you are responsible for everything too... as you are human just like those who did what you complain of. Oh those earthlings... they are so violent.

[Pygoscelis]

Society seems to overlook the need for a child to grow up in a loving and caring family, the more important message seems to be that adults have rights without responsibilities. When I go out with the Street Pastor team, it troubles me to know there are many single mothers out drinking until 2 -3 am, they are not with the father of their child, but seem to be looking for a new relationship, leaving their child at home with someone. We can't preach to them about the rights and wrongs, otherwise they will just walk away, so we can only be very gentle with what we say.

You can offer them support and encouragement, and I'm glad you do. While I strongly disagree with your religious and likely your political views (my neighbours are a married gay couple raising an adopted son, and he is turning out great, and I would protect them from your preaching ;) ) I thank you for being there for people and giving them support and a shoulder to lean on when they are in need. I do the same in my own community.

[Abz2000]

Min kum mu-min wa min kum kaafir - that's what i see, you're either with the believers and part of the solution, , or with the likes of george bush and therefore part of the problem.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Abz2000;

Not just hatred, but bitterness, fury, apathy, and a slowly kindling and growing desire to see justice and retribution.

I am not sure how you can strive for justice with hatred, bitterness, fury and the need for retribution.

Nelson Mandela spent twenty seven unjust years in prison, he had every right to be angry, bitter, hate and call for retribution. He said this before going to prison, and he said it again after, when he was president....

During my lifetime I have dedicated my life to this struggle of the African people. I have fought against white domination, and I have fought against black domination. I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons will live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal for which I hope to live for and to see realised. But, My Lord, if it needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Pygoscelis;

While I strongly disagree with your religious and likely your political views (my neighbours are a married gay couple raising an adopted son, and he is turning out great, and I would protect them from your preaching ;) )

I have married gay friends, and it is a conflict to me. One of them in her late fifties, knew that I was a Christian, and she asked my thoughts before she got married. I said, although I am not gay, I am not in a position to make judgements, I commit many sins, I cannot say whether my sins are better or worse than yours in the eyes of God. I struggle with the concept of marriage, it seems to have lost it's meaning, even for heterosexual couples.

I believe there is a greatest meaning of marriage, a loving relationship between one man and one woman, for life and before God, many of us fall short of this, including myself growing up in the sixties. Despite all our failings, I believe that we shall never look into the eyes of anyone who does not matter to God

I thank you for being there for people and giving them support and a shoulder to lean on when they are in need. I do the same in my own community.

And thank you for doing likewise.

Blessings

Eric

[Pygoscelis]

Min kum mu-min wa min kum kaafir - that's what i see, you're either with the believers and part of the solution, , or with the likes of george bush and therefore part of the problem.

Aye, "With us or against us"... That's straight out of the mouth of George W. Bush. He lost a lot of allies for America with that stance.

[Abz2000]

Aye, "With us or against us"... That's straight out of the mouth of George W. Bush.

:) short sighted pygo, u made one link but passed by the chain :)
if you looked a little further, you'd see that he was plagiarizing from yours truly:

"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Matthew 12:30 and Luke 11:23 (New int'l version)

He lost a lot of allies for America with that stance.

They'll become allies if and when they accept God's guidance, until then, it's invitation and strictly business, working on common cause where possible within the limits of Islam, other than the natural human pity which sometimes draws us to the task of putting out your hand to pull another human out, like a sort of new chance to walk aright, but it's not hunky dory "everything evil is like everything good" and "believer and infidel is the same" delusion, law abiding citizens of the kingdom of God are never equal to criminals and anarchist radicals.
Repent.

[Pygoscelis]

:) short sighted pygo, u made one link but passed by the chain :)
if you looked a little further, you'd see that he was plagiarizing from yours truly:

"Whoever is not with me is against me, and whoever does not gather with me scatters.

Matthew 12:30 and Luke 11:23 (New int'l version)

from "yours truly"? You wrote the bible???? I had no idea. This is becoming amusing. :D

They'll become allies if and when they accept God's guidance, until then, it's invitation and strictly business, working on common cause where possible within the limits of Islam, other than the natural human pity which sometimes draws us to the task of putting out your hand to pull another human out, like a sort of new chance to walk aright, but it's not hunky dory "everything evil is like everything good" and "believer and infidel is the same" delusion, law abiding citizens of the kingdom of God are never equal to criminals and anarchist radicals.

Ah yes, because anybody who doesn't share your vision of religion and believe in your God must be a criminal and anarchist radical. ;D

Repent.

Repaint! Repaint! And thin no more.

[sister herb]

^ By this logic, then all Americans and Canadians are in responsible about acts and words of politicians? It means also all Muslims, just same what is their origin, are in the same boat. And widely, I surely am a supporter of the zionists because my country has sold weapons and other technology to Israel. Also, all Germans are nazists because some are, all Russians are communists because some are, all British are war criminals because the UK has took part to wars with the USA etc.

We all are then guilty for war crimes because most of us has some connection to some leaders or countries whose some time now or in history have attacked against other people, countries... if no other connection then just we happen to born in the same country or race.

Br Abz, Islam teaches that we all are in responsible only our own sins. We don´t have to be in charge of acts of others like leaders of the countries we live.

[Pygoscelis]

^ By this logic, then all Americans and Canadians are in responsible about acts and words of politicians? It means also all Muslims, just same what is their origin, are in the same boat. And widely, I surely am a supporter of the zionists because my country has sold weapons and other technology to Israel. Also, all Germans are nazists because some are, all Russians are communists because some are, all British are war criminals because the UK has took part to wars with the USA etc.

We all are then guilty for war crimes because most of us has some connection to some leaders or countries whose some time now or in history have attacked against other people, countries... if no other connection then just we happen to born in the same country or race.

Br Abz, Islam teaches that we all are in responsible only our own sins. We don´t have to be in charge of acts of others like leaders of the countries we live.

Well said. That is exactly where the logic of blood feud leads us. We wind up all being guilty by association (no matter how weak that association is) and war becomes never ending. You are not Isis. I am not George Bush.

The land you reside in is canada, the standard you bear - personality wise - is that of your ally america.

I don't know or care what land you reside in, but your personality is that of Donald Trump and George W. Bush.

[ardianto]

why do you blame Islam for the situation which the infidels brught about, and more importantly, why do you threaten Muslims living in the west or east with hate crimes for the actions of I.S which you brought about and provoke

Pygo never did what you are accusing.

Bro, accuse someone for something he has never done is prohibited in Islam.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Abz2000;

I know you are passionate about the injustice done against Muslims in Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq, as am I, and also Pygoscelis, we are not against your cause. Muslims need to work together with people of other faiths and no faith in the fight against injustice.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.

Eric

[Abz2000]

Pygo never did what you are accusing.

Bro, accuse someone for something he has never done is prohibited in Islam.

Errr.... i was asking pygo, it would be a lot better if you allowed him to respond to his own comments - or are you a devotee that memorizes his every post and analyses them for intent?

for clarification pygo, i refer to the comments where pygo asks how one could blame others for attacks against Muslims when Muslims were so into intolerant or superior minded or support armed Islamic revolutionary groups.
my own observations at the time indicated a clever method of coercing Muslims into false compromise, in psychology it's called generalization and via association where they drop an essential part of their faith for fear of being labelled.
it wasn't pygo claiming that he himself would carry it out, it was the casual, "then can you blame such & such" or "no wonder such & such happens to Muslims".
:) thing is that i was asking pygo :) so please refrain from chiming in until he has had his say.
i am certainly not going to do a full post crawl based on an uninformed side jab from someoneother than the person commenting.
And the fact that you say "prohibited in Islam" shines a light on your state of mind, prohibited by God means prohibited by God.
It doesn't make it lawful in atheism lol.


associative learning

occurs when we make a connection, or an association, between two events.


Conditioning

is the process of learning these associations


classical conditioning

organisms learn the association between two stimuli. As a result of this association, organisms learn to anticipate events.

lightning is associated with thunder and regularly precedes it. Thus, when we see lightning, we anticipate that we will hear thunder soon afterward.


operant conditioning

organisms learn the association between a behavior and a consequence, such as a reward.As a result of this association, organisms learn to increase behaviors that are followed by rewards and to decrease behaviors that are followed by punishment.

children are likely to repeat their good manners if their parents reward them with candy after they have shown good manners. Also, if children's bad manners are followed by scolding words and harsh glances by parents, the children are less likely to repeat the bad manners.*

[azc]

Greetings and peace be with you Abz2000;I know you are passionate about the injustice done against Muslims in Syria, Afghanistan and Iraq, as am I, and also Pygoscelis, we are not against your cause. Muslims need to work together with people of other faiths and no faith in the fight against injustice.In the spirit of praying for justice for all people.Eric

You've underestimated the efforts of Muslim in spreading the msg of peace, brotherhood and justice for all by cooperating the ppl of other faith around the globe. Your trying to say that all non Muslims are doing this job and now Muslims need to cooperate them as if they were indifferent so far.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you azc;

I know Muslims have every right to be angry, I am deeply disturbed that America dropped twenty three thousand bombs last year on mainly Muslim countries. I live in the UK, and I am against our country's involvement in Afghanistan, Syria and Iraq. But you cannot fight evil with more evil, any solution that needs guns will lead to more injustice.

Very few people have the vision of Nelson Mandela, he came out of prison after twenty seven years, he said he had to leave his anger behind in prison, his vision was towards peace with the people who wrongfully imprisoned him.

In the spirit of praying for justice for all people

Eric

[Abz2000]

Eric man, you need to read the Quran again if you haven't already.
In human events, there has to be a positive and lawful deterrent to criminal invasions of the lands and properties of those who are wronged, efforts of dawah and toothy grins alone fall flat on the deaf ears of the infidel weapons, oil and usury barons who's habit has become the usurping, lying, then unlawfully invading and massacring, and i'm sure you don't believe that a government would run without lawful deterrents.
Nelson mandela and gandhi are examples of one side of character, they are not valid, stable and all-round examples of the model required in the global climate of infidel invasion.
Would you use dawah and grins alone in front of gog and maghen they invade and destroy?
I did sia bouncer/door supervisor security training in the u.k, they train you to raise your voice to the level of the aggressor and then lower it in notches as things stabilize.
people have to know that they can't invade iraq or syria based on utter lies, massacre millions, and then have tv pundits calmly discussing agency "failings" (as if they weren't instructed to build a false case), while peppering and seasoning discussions with comments like "terrorist" "al qaeda" "we need the oil" before a passive public that's itching to hear the sports results.
They need to know that repercussions take place.

[Serinity]

To defeat evil, on has to fight evil.. To defeat aggression, one has to fight aggression. But how does one fight these thing?

Many times, preaching peace and mercy, won't detter the agressors, or the evildoers.. One has to crack down harshly on those who do wrong, and give them a lesson. Be harsh, yet still level headed, don't be taken by your emotions, but use your brain. To defeat evil, you fight with a greater good, overpowering evil.

But, please, USE WISDOM, if VIOLENCE, won't solve anything, don't do it....
Violence in the cause of evil and injustice, is oppressive.

Violence, in order to attain peace and justice, is reasonable, unless there is a more peaceful option, then no it is unreasonable... Sometimes, dialogue, won't solve anything, then what? We beat some sense into the guy.

Fighting the tyrants, yet attacking the civilians, is corwadice. Unless, the civilians attack first. In Islam, you can not attack, women, or children, or old men, or those who don't participate in war / isn't responsible for the conflict etc. AFAIK. You are not allowed to mutiliate dead bodies, cut down trees, or kill animals, or destroy crops.

May Allah forgive me for whatever I said of wrong.

[Pygoscelis]

Consider it. Eric is a conservative Christian street preacher. I am an atheist humanist. We may be each other's nemesis in other contexts, yet here we both are, on a Muslim forum, both seeking to understand Muslims, and having great sympathy for them in the face of the attacks we have seen against them. We are both aghast and horrified at what has happened to innocent human beings who happen to be believers in Islam. Consider Ardianto, Search, and Sister Herb. They are three compassionate and good hearted Muslims, who have become our friends, who we would do what we can to protect from haters like Donald Trump, and who speak out on this forum in agreement with two kafir and against a fellow Muslim (or purported Muslim) in in that they share our orientation of love for humanity, regardless of religious, national, or ideological difference. This is what gives me hope that we may find peaceful coexistence. This is the song of the doves.

But then you have the hawks. You have Donald Trump who wants to deport all muslims from America. You have George W. Bush who launched invasions, made up lies about weapons of mass destruction, and called it a "crusade". You have the pastor who organized "Burn a Quran Day" just to insult Muslims. You have people like Ann Coulter who says that the only way we should tolerate and be peaceful towards Muslims is if they give up Islam and become Christian. And you have people like Abz here who says the only way Muslims should tolerate non-muslims and be peaceful towards them is if they become Muslims.

Abz, I will explain what you ask me to above. I was writing in reaction to you saying, as you often have, that the only way you will tolerate non-Muslims like myself or Eric is if we become Muslims. We are not going to become Muslims. I couldn't even if I wanted to. I don't believe your Allah exists. I can't make myself believe something I don't. That turns your statement into one of unconditional hostility. You declare yourself my enemy and there is nothing I can do about it.

When you say such things, you directly play into the hands of people like Donald Trump, who think the way you do, in a tribal us versus them mindset, broadbrushing all Muslims as one. They brush people like Sister Herb, Ardianto, and Search with your words, and justify the aggression of the anti-Muslim hawks with your words.

What are people like Eric and I to say at that point? How are we to sway other non-Muslims away from thinking like them? How are we to sway them to stand with us to protect our Muslim friends? We can and do say that Muslims are not hostile, that Muslims don't hate us, that they are not terrorists, that they shouldn't deport all Muslims from America, that we shouldn't "destroy you before you destroy us". We do say all of these things, but they fall on deaf ears, when certain Muslims scream out what you do, that you will seek to destroy us and really ARE a hostile threat, and that you will remain so no matter what, until we either adopt your religion or destroy you.

How do you feel when people like Ann Coulter say that we shouldn't tolerate or be peaceful towards you unless you give up Islam, accept Jesus Christ as your personal lord and saviour, and become Christian? How do you react to that? Is there any reasoning with her? Is she rational? How do you feel and how do you react when Richard Dawkins calls Islam a disease of the mind in need of a cure? How do you feel when Sam Harris broadbrushes all Muslims as hateful and violent? Can you not see that you are doing the exact same thing?

How would you feel and react if you were told that heterosexuality is an abomination unto a God you don't believe even exists, and that therefore you must either go through conversion therapy to be made homosexual, live deep in the closet lest you be accused of "pushing the heterosexual agenda", or be hunted down and murdered? Again, can you not see that you are doing exactly that in your posts about homosexuality?

[Pygoscelis]

But, please, USE WISDOM, if VIOLENCE, won't solve anything, don't do it....
Violence in the cause of evil and injustice, is oppressive.

Indeed. And violence should be the LAST resort. Not the first. I urge all who read this to read the thread I posted yesterday about the Canadian couple in Brittish Colombia and the friendship they have formed with Syrian refugees. I urge you to stand back to back with those across tribal lines. When Imams, Pastors, Rabis, and Atheists all stand together in calling for peace, it undermines the us vs them thinking that is the basis of so many of the evils in this world. Look at how children play together, blissfully unaware of racism, religious hatreds, etc.

Only sociopaths lack empathy, and only psychopathic sociopaths want to hurt other human beings just for the sake of it. Dropping bombs, cutting off heads, blowing up buildings, are not actions we tend towards without dehumanization and broadbrushing of the other. The western politicians who order the dropping of the bombs only get the political will to do that by the fearmongering and broadbrushing that they do of those they want to bomb. The way to stop them is to undercut their support, and the way to do that is to undercut us vs them thinking and stand together across tribal lines. Ghandi and Mandela were right.

[Serinity]

Indeed. And violence should be the LAST resort. Not the first. I urge all who read this to read the thread I posted yesterday about the Canadian couple in Brittish Colombia and the friendship they have formed with Syrian refugees. I urge you to stand back to back with those across tribal lines. When Imams, Pastors, Rabis, and Atheists all stand together in calling for peace, it undermines the us vs them thinking that is the basis of so many of the evils in this world. Look at how children play together, blissfully unaware of racism, religious hatreds, etc.

Only sociopaths lack empathy, and only psychopathic sociopaths want to hurt other human beings just for the sake of it. Dropping bombs, cutting off heads, blowing up buildings, are not actions we tend towards without dehumanization and broadbrushing of the other. The western politicians who order the dropping of the bombs only get the political will to do that by the fearmongering and broadbrushing that they do of those they want to bomb. The way to stop them is to undercut their support, and the way to do that is to undercut us vs them thinking and stand together across tribal lines. Ghandi and Mandela were right.

the underlying problem, is religious brainwashing and confusion.

Bottom line is, as humans, what hurts you, hurts me. Unless we come to understand that, common ground can't be achieved.

Understanding the Quran in ink, is not enough. Without proper understandings of others' pains, we may become judgmental. Not saying, Allah forbid, the Quran isn't enough, but that we lack experience and wisdom.

People, before we begin to understand the Quran, we need to be retaught what it means to be human, and how to be human, cause this quality of being humane, has been degrading...
Don't judge people by their religion etc. Judge by character.

May Allah forgive me. Ameen

[Pygoscelis]

Don't judge people by their religion etc. Judge by character.

Absolutely. Well said.

[ardianto]

As I've ever said in one thread, I do dawah too. However, the purpose of my dawah is not to make someone become Muslim, but to make people understand that Muslims and Islam is not as bad as some people assume.

Some of my maternal relatives are Protestant Christians. I studied in Catholic elementary school. I still have non-Muslim friends until now. I have no problem if someone who I know is not Muslim. As long as he/she respect Muslims and Islam, it's enough. But honestly, I am so sad with reality that happen nowadays.

I still remember the times in 70's when I was kid, in 80's and 90's when I was young. Other people didn't see Muslims and Islam in negative way. If they met Muslim man what they asked was not far from "Do you have more than one wife?". A question that made me laugh. But nowadays?. When they see a Muslim they warn the others "Beware!, the terrorist is coming!".

Islamophobia. This is what I see nowadays. There are many Muslims who become victims because this. They fall under suspicion, they are discriminated, just because they are Muslims, although they actually very tolerant and never want to hurt anyone. That's why I told myself :"I shall do something to save Muslims from Islamophobia".

Unfortunately, when I try to open the other people eyes to make them understand about Islam and Muslims, there are always Muslims who shout behind my back "Kill kuffar!, dominate the world!". Of course this make Muslims still in difficult position.

But I will never give up. I promise myself, I will always try to save innocent Muslims from Islamphobia, and will always try to remind the radical Muslims to back to concept of Islam that respect non-Muslims.

[Serinity]

As I've ever said in one thread, I do dawah too. However, the purpose of my dawah is not to make someone become Muslim, but to make people understand that Muslims and Islam is not as bad as some people assume.

Some of my maternal relatives are Protestant Christians. I studied in Catholic elementary school. I still have non-Muslim friends until now. I have no problem if someone who I know is not Muslim. As long as he/she respect Muslims and Islam, it's enough. But honestly, I am so sad with reality that happen nowadays.

I still remember the times in 70's when I was kid, in 80's and 90's when I was young. Other people didn't see Muslims and Islam in negative way. If they met Muslim man what they asked was not far from "Do you have more than one wife?". A question that made me laugh. But nowadays?. When they see a Muslim they warn the others "Beware!, the terrorist is coming!".

Islamophobia. This is what I see nowadays. There are many Muslims who become victims because this. They fall under suspicion, they are discriminated, just because they are Muslims, although they actually very tolerant and never want to hurt anyone. That's why I told myself :"I shall do something to save Muslims from Islamophobia".

Unfortunately, when I try to open the other people eyes to make them understand about Islam and Muslims, there are always Muslims who shout behind my back "Kill kuffar!, dominate the world!". Of course this make Muslims still in difficult position.

But I will never give up. I promise myself, I will always try to save innocent Muslims from Islamphobia, and will always try to remind the radical Muslims to back to concept of Islam that respect non-Muslims.

Many are confused youths, taking the Quran out of context, or taking the right of Allah upon them etc.

Honestly, As a Human, I hate war. There is no good war. The only good war, is war against evil! NOT against HUMANS who has not attacked you on religion, and even if people attack us because of what we believe, to attack back isn't the answer! cuz, then you've responded to them, and you lost.

I don't undestand Islam 100% but what I do understand, or do, is go with logic.. Cuz to do otherwise, or to say "don't go with logic dude! do as we say, kill the kuffar, look ! a verse of the Quran being shown"etc. But to abandon logic, would be an insult to my intelligence, and an insult to Islam, cuz one is implying that Islam is, Allah forbid, illogical.

Quran - logic = chaos.

[ardianto]

Eric is a conservative Christian street preacher.

Just want to clarify. Eric H is not Protestant street preacher who stand on the street then preach. But Catholic who join in Street Pastor group. What he do with his group is walking around at night, meet people, listen to their problems, and do kindness, regardless what other people belief.

So don't worry he would preach you about Christianity if you meet him on the street.

:)

[Abz2000]

When you live in a world where:
the politicians charged with managing the countries according to justice and with protecting the security of the nation stage blatant false flag attacks (who needs Muslims to condemn "terrorism" and make it all appear real) when thugs control the nsa, cia, fbi, faa and have access to arircrafts remote protocol), brazenly and openly lie to the masses in their faces and then go and massacre millions of people in defiance of right and just reason, clamp down on anti-war protesters as radicals, nation haters , fanatics and extremists if they happen to be Muslim, and the people charged with foreign envoy protocol have no sense of respect or dignified behaviour and rip off women's niqabs, get police to arrest and assault them for not displaying their beauty in public to every perv on the street or bus, beat them up in police stations out of retribution for resisting dehumanization, and then claim it was due to the initial scuffle, cut off their veils with scissors while holding them under restraint, charge, convict, imprison and fine them in the court of "justice" system thereby depriving them of their God given human right to be safe from undue restraint, deprivation and psychological torture and leaving them with a permenant criminal record for resisting the demand to part with their God given rights, tell them to go back to their own countries if they don't like it even if they're citizens and born natives to the land through patriarchy, and even after they leave, use the puppet intelligence agencies and security forces of the lands of their migration to harrass and constrain life for them, arm puppet dictatorships presented in the western media as "free democracies" to murder people on the streets for non-violently protesting unislamic laws or for lawfully and truthfully questioning brazenly fixed election results in almost 100% Muslim majority countries, bombing, killing, maiming, starving and humiliating them in the one single fragile country in the world where Islamic law is implemented for demanding that people abide by the rules of Islam, leave, or die. (Isn't it a miracle that they left and chose to go to syria and set up Islamic law rather than bomb you in the west for all your violations of their sanctity and honour?) When they betray the palestinians and evict them from their homes after the bush, ibm, rockefeller and rothschild families arm and fund hitler to begin chaos in a collapsing germany, angry and unable to pay the huge penalties placed on it after the first "war to end all wars" , create and manipulate the conditions for mass migration to palestine for crimes commited by europe in europe, start genocides against palestinians and veto every international resolution condemning those genocides at the "table of dialogue and non-violence" , When they prevent Muslims from migrating and unlawfully incarcerate people for attempting to make such migration,
and then still accuse Muslims of being irrational and of "lacking wisdom", when proxy snide agents pretend to be defending Muslims from the corrupt leaders and system which they openly defend while themselves admit to their own impotence and inability to rectify the unjust decrees and degredation (which is obvious without their admission anyway), and then in the face of the blatant false flags in total absence of justification for illegal aggressions accuse Muslims of providing justification for the unjust aggressions against the whole body of Muslims just because they excercise their God given right to defend themselves in the face of without uncertainty unprovoked aggression, you know you're being played like the children of Israel were played in Pharaoh's time, and history repeats, we see some sock puppeuncle tomt advocates from among the humiliated masses accusing those trying to redress the offences against them of being guilty of provocatio ( Read about how they accused Musa and harun of being the reason and justification for pharaoh's crimesif you like) ,
It's all or bust, the only avenue which remains is to proclaim the need for mankind to submit to the laws of Islam (which is required anyway - full circle) and to accept nothing less than Islam since the infidels no longer have any argument before God or before man, and God is with those who stand in His cause.

Chapter Name:Al-Shuara Verse No:227إِلَّا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ وَذَكَرُوا اللَّهَ كَثِيراً وَانتَصَرُوا مِن بَعْدِ مَا ظُلِمُوا وَسَيَعْلَمُ الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا أَيَّ مُنقَلَبٍ يَنقَلِبُونَ {227*





Except those who believe, work righteousness, engage much in the remembrance of Allah, and defend themselves after they are unjustly attacked.
And soon will the unjust assailants know what vicissitudes their affairs will take!




http://www.ibtimes.co.in/belgium-bur...rincess-607294

[Pygoscelis]

A world like you describe is a world especially in need of the doves standing up to the hawks, not the continuation of the cycle of hatred that you want to keep spinning round and round. A world like you describe is a world where decent Muslims and Non-Muslims MUST stand together against the hate. And a world like you describe is one where Muslim and Non-Muslim hand to hand and back to back, looking out for one another, has an especially strong impact.

Stop being part of the problem, along with your compatriots George W. Bush and Donald Trump, and join us in being the solution. As I offer you my hand in friendship, why must you bite it off?

[Muhammad]

...And on that note we'll close this thread as it seems to be spiralling towards a repetition of earlier threads.